Ep. 226 -- Graig Kreindler: Painting the Past Back to Life

0:01 Stories from Real Life is a production of Media Well Done, LLC. You [music] are listening to Stories from Real Life, a podcast by engaging storytellers for engaged story listeners. Here's your host, author and journalist, Melvin E. Edwards. [music] Hello and welcome to Stories from Real Life. I'm your host, Melvin E. Edwards. Some people preserve history with words, others preserve it with photographs.

0:44 My guest today uses a paintbrush to help us see the people behind the history. Greg Kreinler is known as the painter of the national pastime. His work brings baseball's past into vivid color from familiar Greg, welcome to Stories from Real Life. Thank you for having me, Melvin. I appreciate it. I'm honored to have you here. Same. Before we talk about the players you paint, take me back to the boy looking through his father's baseball cards. I miss that boy.

1:27 So I was about, let's say six or seven years old, probably when I discovered my father's baseball card collection, or at least what he had left of his baseball card collection. My dad was born in 44 and he grew up a Yankee. And, you know, he collected baseball cards from the late 40s and early 50s. And it's one of those, like, classic horror stories where, you know, at some point he was away from home or just wasn't in the house or whatever. My grandmother saw a box of baseball cards and was like, oh, well, my son's grown out of these, so why should we keep these around? She junked them.

2:08 He was able to keep some. Mostly they were Yankees. But yeah, when I was five or six, those were the cards that I discovered. And I, you know, at the time I was a baseball fan. I was into the Yankees very much, or I guess as much as a five or six year old could be into baseball. I don't quite remember whether I was actually collecting baseball cards myself at that time, but it was probably... Around that time. But in addition to my love of baseball, I was also drawing a lot. I was very much into kind of like the cartoons that were playing, you know, as I was a kid, stuff like, you know, G.I. Joe and He-Man and Thundercats. And I would watch these shows and my parents would tape them for me and I would kind of like watch them over and over again and pause my favorite parts and kind of just sit in front of the television and draw what I would see.

3:01 The majority of the cards from the late 40s and early 50s were actually illustrated. They didn't really use photography, or at least in the way photography is used now. And I think when I saw them, something kind of clicked in my head that I could do that. Not necessarily something that I could do when I grew up, as a career, or whatever. I could try to draw Mickey Mantle, you know, as my dad's hero. I could try to draw Yogi Berra, try to draw Willie Mays or whatever. And that kind of got me started in this whole baseball art thing. So it's kind of like the flashpoint for it all, I like to think. That's really cool.

3:44 What do you remember about those moments with your dad? Well, it's funny, like there aren't like I have these memories and I kind of feel like they they kind of blend together in a lot of ways. A lot of a lot of those kind of moments. When he's kind of sitting me down on the proverbial knee and telling me about his heroes growing up. And I'm not sure what the reason was. It might have just been because the Yankees of his generation were so successful and so legendary that those stories just seemed so much more real to me or maybe important or... Something was more appealing about them than it was, say, for me to talk about Ricky Henderson or Dave Winfield, who I loved very much at the time.

4:33 But yeah, my dad would kind of sit me down and talk to me about Mickey Man. You know, we would watch, you know, various kind of, you know, videos or movies that, you know, could be like the history of the Yankees or like, you know, the history of baseball. And this is before Ken Burns. So this is kind of like, you know, pretty. Early stuff, you know, and quality varies from tape to tape or whatever. And there's this one thing that happened in the early 90s. I remember this part very vividly where we had HBO and a new series had just premiered called When It Was a Game. And somehow, I don't know if my father had heard about it or if we just kind of like caught it randomly some night when it was on.

5:20 But we had watched that and it really kind of affected my dad. And I think it also really affected. It affected me, though I wasn't really aware of it at the time. But for those who don't know, when it was a game is kind of a collection of home movies that were shot by fans and players in the big leagues from like the late 30s into, I think, And the majority of those home movies are actually in color. So, you know, I'm watching like that first hour long special and I'm seeing Mickey Mantle in color. I'm seeing Jackie Robinson in color, you know, Ebbets Field, Yankee Stadium. It's kind of like this.

6:01 It's kind of like when Dorothy gets to Oz and she comes out of the door and everything is in color and it's just this magical thing. And I know that when my father was watching this, it kind of... I guess it... Probably transported him to, you know, back when he was a kid, when he was going to Yankee Stadium with his dad or when my mom was going to Ebbets Field with her dad. And you could just kind of, you could see it in his face or maybe in my mind, I see it on his face. You might not have actually made those faces, but... In my head, he did. So I very much remember seeing those and kind of just noticing like a visceral reaction to it. And that like that always kind of stuck with me, still sticks with me.

6:46 And even to this day, you know, When I watch that or when I have it on in the background or whatever, it's just like a flood of memories of stuff that I never even experienced, but just even a flood of memories with my dad, which is awesome. That is awesome. That is very good. I need to watch that again. I haven't seen it since it originally aired. The only thing I remember about it is the clips where players would leave their gloves on the field after the third out was recorded and the other team would pick them up and use them that inning and then they'd leave them on the field. That was strange to me. Right? It's so, so odd. My father is trying to explain that to me, how up until I guess it was the mid-50s, Gloves are literally on the field during play.

7:35 That's insane to me. How does someone not trip over them? Players these days can't even play if there's a hot dog wrapper that flies onto the field. Right. Yes. All right. So you were named after Greg Nettles, as you mentioned before we started recording. What's the family story behind that choice? And when did you realize that baseball was already a part of your identity? Well, so my... Dad, as I had mentioned, he was a Yankees fan. And I think when he tells the story, he just says that he was very impressed with Nettles during the 78 series, the World Series, making all those wonderful defensive plays. And I mean, the way that I thought it happened was that, oh, you know, my dad was a big Greg Nettles fan and he named me after Greg Nettles because he thought it was a cool name.

8:25 But it turns out that it was my mother who actually saw the name and thought it was a very interesting spelling. And she was the one who suggested it. So there you go. So I was named after him. And, you know, I think I was always aware of the fact that there was that kind of connection. You know, even like my parents tell me that I went to my friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you get to wear number nine?

9:22 I don't think I ever did. And I think only one year I was with the Yankees. But all the other years, not only was I not with the Yankees, but I wasn't with any of the other teams that Nettles had played for. So, you know, no Indians, no Twins. The Padres at one point? Yeah, no Padres. It's like, you know, I think I was with like the Orioles a lot and maybe the Athletics and... Let's move back to Mickey Mantle for a second. What did your dad's love of Mickey Mantle teach you about your father himself? Oh my gosh. That's a great question. Wow. What did it teach me about my father, myself, or himself? No, what it taught me. I'm sorry I'm using it, but it's hard to find another one.

10:03 There was something about seeing him still being so into... You know, an idol that he had when he was young, you know, seeing how, I guess, kind of affected he was when, you know, Mantle got sick towards the end and, you know, his bout with cancer and then ultimately how he passed away. Just seeing how someone at that age, I guess, Mantle passed away in 95. Dad was born in 44. So, you know, 51 years old. My dad, like, you know, held a candle, you know.

10:46 To Mantle like that entire time. And it was kind of like, I think we would hear people talking about the fact that when Mantle passed away, it was like, that's when they knew their childhood was over. And I don't know if my dad ever said that, but I kind of felt like that was a big part of it. Growing up, my grandparents, the majority of three of them passed away before I was eight. So I didn't really get to know them that well. And the last one passed away, I think, when I was 11 or 12. So in a way, it's kind of like my dad's connection to the past and to his childhood really kind of did end with Mickey Mantle.

11:32 And I think that that was... That's kind of a profound thing to think about. Wow. That's such a great question that you posed, though. It's hard to unpack that, but that is something that I definitely noticed about him. You know, I can speak of any number of stories that he would tell me about Mantle, whether it was, you know, whatever games that he saw, stuff that he read about or heard about. And, you know, everybody's heard that stuff. But actually, you know, having my father, someone who is a very huge part of my life, someone who I love dearly, seeing him affected like that was big. Wow. At what point did your dad start recognizing your talent, artistic talent?

12:16 Well, I mean, I think my parents, both of them, they were very supportive of it. So I would say, you know, even by the time I was maybe three or four, I think they thought that I, at least they knew that I liked to draw a lot. And they always were, you know, like embarrassingly, you know, nourishing people. Where, you know, we were lucky, I mentioned off mic that we, you know, we grew up in a suburb outside of the city. And, you know, we would come into the city often to go to museums and to go to, you know, Broadway shows and to do all these cultural things that I think a lot of kids my age might not. I think the fact that they saw me spend so much of my spare time doing that and being so kind of obsessed about it, not to the point where like, I was always drawing because, yes, I was drawing a lot, but I was always very obsessed with getting something right, with getting something correct.

13:17 If I was drawing He-Man, He-Man had to look exactly like the cartoon that I saw. And there were so many instances in which I'd have a huge blank piece of paper and I'd make a tiny, tiny little mark. And in my head, I'd be like, nope, that's wrong. That mark shouldn't be there. Crumple it up, toss it, and start a new one. I'm still like that. Not so much with He-Man drawing, but with everything else. But yeah, both of my parents were always incredibly supportive of that ever since I was little. Same with my brother. My brother's four years older than me, and he also Also, you know, he could draw well and was kind of musically inclined.

13:58 So they were just always so great about it. And, you know, they were two people who were teaching in the Bronx for their whole career. And, you know, one's a math teacher and one's a science teacher. And it's kind of like their kids are getting into these two kind of creative things and doing something different and, you know, probably scared them half to death because they're just thinking about, oh my God, how are they going to make a living? How are they going to have health insurance? Yeah, exactly. But it was always like, you know, they always had the blinders on or maybe not really blinders, but they were just always very supportive. Yeah. So when did you feel comfortable saying you were good at this? I'm still not comfortable saying that I'm good.

14:40 I mean, someone had asked me, excuse the tangent, but someone had asked me once what I would like to be remembered as when it comes to being an artist. And they It asked me that, and I thought of something that Jerry Garcia said, you know, what he wanted to be remembered, you know, for as a guitarist when he passed away, was that he was a competent musician. And I would love it if I was thought of as being a competent painter. But I have a really hard time saying that I'm good. Like that feels weird. And I think it probably has a lot to do with the fact that, you know, since I guess I would go to museums so much and I know what it's kind of like, I know what it takes to get into those museums outside of, you know, being dead for 120 years or whatever.

15:31 Yeah. But it's kind of like the stuff that I'm doing compared to that, you know, there's a very wide divide. And, you know, I think when you're young, like when I was a teenager and I was drawing and, you know, at the time, you know, I was I don't want to say that I was full of myself, but I was like, oh, you know, I'm good at drawing and I'll probably be an artist when I grow up because it's something that I do well. And then I graduate high school and then I end up going to the School of Visual Arts here in Manhattan. And guess what? Every other kid who was in my class was like the school artist and they all thought the same thing. They're all incredibly talented and I'm showing up to class thinking like I'm at the bottom of the totem pole and I gotta work my way up.

16:18 And still to this day, I still feel like I'm working my way up. So I don't know. I don't know if I ever thought that I was, maybe I thought I was good, but maybe not necessarily good enough, you know what I mean? To make a living or to do anything kind of worth, I don't even want to say worth remembering, but yeah, it's hard to say. Well, let me tell you, you are not just good, you're great. Oh, thank you. You're one of the best painters I've ever seen, including some of the classics. I was at the Louvre this summer when my family went to Europe and we went to several countries and we went to the Louvre at one of our last stops. And any of your paintings, if they included baseball figures, you would easily.

17:02 Nah. Yeah, yeah, don't argue with me, it's my show. I appreciate that. Same. Maybe someday. Maybe. I can tell you, I've always been a writer my whole life, like you've already been a painter. And as I mentioned to you earlier, I turned 60 years old not too long ago. And I wrote my first novel this year. I'd written a couple of nonfiction books, but I wrote my first novel. And just in the last year or so, I've been able to say I'm a really good writer.

17:44 And I actually say it as I have one talent, but I'm really good at it. That's awesome. And it's taken a long time. So you still got a few more years. You'll catch up. But let me ask you, when you're writing, let's say, you know, now and you feel that way, you do still feel that, I don't want to say that you feel like you're at the top of your game, but you feel like you want to push yourself, right? You always want to become better. Yeah. It's something that you can never conquer. You're always trying to get better. Right. There's no 300 batting average in writing or painting. Right. It's either a thousand or nothing. And it's never a thousand. Right. I blew my son's mind yesterday, literally yesterday, because he was talking about playing.

18:30 He's 11 years old and, you know, in middle school now, and he's talking about playing wiffleball for the first time and not really hitting the ball that well at all. Yeah, exactly. If you're enjoying today's conversation, I'd like to invite you to visit MediaWellDoneLLC.com. That's where you'll find everything we do at Media Well Done, from this podcast to our growing library of books.

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19:57 All right, so let's take a look at some of your paintings. I want you to just take us through the detective work that led you to the final product and creating each face here. This is The Art of Baseball, my conversation with Greg Kreidler. All right, let's start with this young fellow here. Tell us about this painting. So I should preface it saying that the majority of the work that I do is based off of photography. More often than not, it's based off of one specific photograph, though every now and then I might kind of combine photographs here and there to kind of make a composite image.

20:37 But the particular photograph that this painting is based on, I have always absolutely adored. I mean, obviously I have the connection to Mickey Mantle because of my dad and thinking about Mantle as a rookie, you know, being this 19 year old kid and coming into Yankee Stadium and, you know, trying to kind of follow in the footsteps of DiMaggio, like how much pressure that must have been. So just kind of like catching him in this quiet moment. And the photographer, I think, really He cropped it kind of perfectly in that he's kind of just like boxed in in his locker and it kind of feels almost like a Norman Rockwell type image.

21:22 It has just such a great narrative to it. But yeah, I mean, the... This particular image was, in terms of research, wasn't super duper hard because I was able to find a couple of images of the clubhouse in Yankee Stadium from that time that were in color. So I was able to kind of match the green that was on the walls and the blue seat that Mantle's sitting on. And with the color of his shirts and suit jacket behind him, it was kind of just kind of like a You know, a search into what men's clothing looked like in the early 50s.

22:12 So I'm not, you know, 100% with, like, you know, the accuracy of what the clothes were, what the colors looked like. But I think, you know, it looks like their period, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that one wasn't too tough to research. Yeah, you just threw that one together. All right, let's go on to the next one. Tell us about this picture. Jackie. Jackie. So, this particular image, I mean, Jackie, obviously, I always...

22:56 Would gravitate towards Jackie, not only because of the connection that I have to him because of my mom and my uncle and my grandfather who were Brooklyn Dodger fans, but also because Jackie Robinson is one of the most important figures in the history of the game in addition to the country. There also wasn't a ton of research that had to go into this particular painting. He's just kind of sitting on the steps of the dugout at Ebbets Field. This is in 1948. I had to kind of figure out what colors that you would see in the dugout at Ebbets Field, in particular the roof of the dugout, like right above his head, and that The wall behind it was kind of like this bluish gray color.

23:53 The thing that in the original photograph took me forever to kind of... To kind of figure out was what's on the right there, which was actually kind of an entrance into, I guess, the hallway that would lead to the clubhouse in Ebbets Field. I just, I couldn't tell what it was that I was looking at. And it took, you know, going through a ton of old kind of newsreel footage to figure that out. But yeah. Yeah, I mean, the main thing here, you know, in addition to getting that Dodger blue as right as I could, was just trying to make sure that, you know, it's kind of like an overcast day.

24:38 So the kind of light that's falling on Jackie's skin is going to be cooler in temperature than what's in the shadow, which will end up being warmer. And I kind of just wanted to make sure that I could Push that illusion a bit and also kind of have some of the sky reflecting back into Jackie's skin, which, you know, he might have been sweating a little bit at that point or whatever. So you'd probably see it a bit more prominently than you would on, you know, a day when he's not sweating, you know, minutiae stuff. But again, this was one that wasn't terribly tough to piece together just from a research standpoint.

25:20 Yeah, seeing your photos or your pictures, I've always been impressed by everything I've seen that you've shared online. But one thing I'm particularly impressed with is black skin that you've painted, various Negro League players. And it's really hard for a camera to capture dark skin, especially if it's next to someone with lighter color skin. Yeah. How did you learn to create that tone, those textures? Well, a lot of it comes from painting from life, which I did a lot of when I was in college or whenever I would sit in on a painting class or whatever, when you're painting from a model.

26:08 That's kind of the stuff that I would pay attention to. And even still to this day, When I'm walking around, you know, if I'm walking around the city or taking my kids to school or whatever, I'm always watching the people who are passing by me and I'm looking at their skin. And admittedly, I probably look a bit like a creep doing it, but... Especially if I'm seeing someone with a deep African-American tone, like a deep black or deep brown color, I'm just amazed by seeing the lovely blues and violets that are reflecting into their skin and noticing the difference between that kind of skin compared to a lighter skinned African-American tone.

26:59 It's just like, I love that stuff. The problem that I have a lot of the time is that, like with Jackie, it's a little bit easier to try and pull that off probably because, you know, we do have color photography of Jackie, you know, even what he looked like towards the end of his life. But, you know, you go back to some of the Negro Leaguers from like the teens and 20s and 30s, you know, we have... We have no clue. And a lot of it ends up being guesswork. I remember doing a painting of like a little color study of turkey sterns. And I remember like looking at this black and white photograph and a couple of other photographs and thinking, okay, it looks like he has really deep, dark skin.

27:48 And I painted it that way. And I remember showing it to his daughter or his daughter saw it. And she'd reached out and she'd mentioned that his skin actually wasn't that dark, that it was more kind of red than it was dark. And I was like, I got to fix that because I want to be accurate. That's the stuff that keeps me up at night. I can imagine. All right, let's go on to this guy. A couple of people may have heard of him before. You can tell us about him if you remember his name. Yes, George Herman Ruth is that guy. Yeah, so here Ruth is, he's just warming up on the sidelines at the polo grounds in 1915.

28:34 This is literally like a day or two before the 1915 World Series started, which was between them and the Phillies, if I remember. And this particular image, I mean, I love it because Obviously, I love seeing Ruth in any capacity. He's just such a great character to try and bring to life in any kind of way. But seeing him kind of young with socks and even kind of svelte before he got really heavy... And as a pitcher, and then, you know, you have the polo grounds in the background, which I have an affinity for, because, you know, that's kind of like the home ballpark for my grandfather, who I never got to talk baseball with, but he was a big New York Giants fan.

29:23 And, you know, theoretically could have seen this game. You know, he would have been like eight years old, but... He could have been there. But yeah, so this was a doubleheader between the Sox and the Yankees who were playing at the Polo Grounds at that time. And at that time, the Sox had already locked up the pennant. And the Yankees weren't really doing much of anything. So I think the attendance that day was something like 700 or between six and 700, like literally six, 700 people.

30:04 So it looks like a ghost town, which I love. Yeah. But yeah, the big thing for this for me was trying to get the signage correct. That's always kind of a big thing with me is having those colorful ballpark advertisements and trying to kind of get the colors of them correct. It's a bit... It's a bit easier to do it with stuff that's from like the 40s and 50s and 60s and I guess onward because we do have a lot of color reference for it. But going back this far to 1915, it's more of like an educated guess, unfortunately.

30:48 So like the Fatima sign on the back that's for cigarettes and I would look up Advertisements for that particular cigarette from that era. And, you know, taking into account the kind of printing that was able to be done, I try to kind of figure out, okay, it might have been red because I see this color red in whatever advertisements that are showing for it. And same with the Ever Ready safety razors right behind him. And I know that no one is around to call me out on it, but in my head, there's always the possibility.

31:30 I did a painting of Hannes Wagner at Westside Park in Chicago, 1909. And I remember, you know, really researching it to death and really actually getting like a good grasp on the color of this ballpark in the painting or as it would appear in the painting. And I remember being like so happy that I did that. And was able to kind of, you know, check it against newspaper accounts and everything. And I pictured in my head, you know, being a little bit older and like maybe talking, you know, like a show or some presentation and talking about the painting, being like, yeah, so I did this painting and I did all this research.

32:16 And then in this fantasy, you know. In like wobbles in a 140-year-old man, you know, like on a cane, like I was there that day and you did not do this right. So that's still like in the back of my head that something like that could happen. You could probably outrun him though, I'm guessing. I'm pretty slow. If you can't outrun a 140-year-old man, then I don't know what to say. All right, let's go into the, let's talk about Leroy Page. Sure. Sure. I know him as Satchel. Yes. The man, the myth, the legend. I mean, I love Satch.

32:56 Anyone who does any research on the Negro Leagues or knows anything about the Negro Leagues knows the name Satchel Paige. This particular image, I've Known of this image for a very long time and had kind of always wanted to paint it, but it wasn't until a couple of years ago when I got a really nice scan of the photo from the original negative, which I didn't even know existed. It was in the holdings of... Who was it? It's a...

33:37 It's a place out in Detroit. I forget the name of it and that's going to bother me. But they had all these original negatives of Satch posing for photographers at Briggs Stadium in Detroit, which was kind of like, my guess is that it was done to kind of drum up press for a... It was a doubleheader between them and the Chicago American Giants, between the Kansas City Monarchs and the Chicago American Giants a couple of weeks away. You know, figure if people know that Satch is pitching, then you're going to fill the place or get closer to filling it than you would if Satch wasn't pitching.

34:20 And if Babe Ruth was pitching towards the end of the season. Oh, my God. Right? Yeah. So yeah, I was so beyond thrilled that I was able to get such a nice, clear scan of that negative and got to see a bit more of the background of the stadium there and everything on the wall behind him was so much clearer. And there are all these other images of him from that day warming up or just even like holding the ball. A lot of famous images that if I showed you, you'd be like, yeah, I know that image.

35:01 Seen that for, you know, 50 years now. I just, I couldn't not paint this image and attempt to do him justice. And it was another one of those things where, you know, We do have some color photography of Page, you know, in his later years. So, you know, a lot of the time I'm kind of just working off of that and just trying to make his skin tone, like, believable. But you even got the scar there under his left eye. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, doing research about that scar, like, figuring out, like, when he got it and how he got it, like...

35:48 Really? Oh, man. Just the stuff that I feel like I try to figure out just so I'm... I don't know. Just these details that just make a painting, even though it's not even... On the radar, you know, I mean, like how many people would see the painting and, you know, even notice the scar or whatever. But that's like the kind of thing that it's like, oh, yeah, I can tell you all this information about what happened and why he has that and when he got it and blah, blah, blah. And that's the kind of stuff I love. I mean, baseball is so great for stuff like that.

36:29 I mean, everything just has a cool story. Yes, I 100% agree. All right, let's go on to a couple more. I don't recognize two of these figures you've got that we'll get up to. Who is this guy with the Boston Red Sox? Assuming it's the Red Sox, not the Braves. Yes, that is a young Tris speaker. Oh, okay. Texan, fellow Texan. Yes, yes, the Gray Eagle. I mean... I love Tris Speaker's look. I just always feel like whenever he's looking anywhere in any photograph that I've seen, he always looks mean or kind of wary.

37:14 And I just fell in love with this image because of that, because he's young. And it was such a clear photograph that I was working with. And you get the old Boston jersey with the lace front. And still, it's like you have a little bit of his hair that I can actually make a bit gray because of the premature gray that he had. That was just a lot of fun to do. And I do like Tris a lot. I mean, I like all these guys. Yeah. I love the quirky nature of those old uniforms. When I was in Annapolis, I ran the American Legion baseball program in Annapolis.

37:59 And 2019 was the 100th anniversary of the American Legion. So I got the idea that I would design uniforms that look like they came from 1919. And I was so proud of those uniforms. And it was funny, our players were self-conscious about them at first because they were just so different from everybody else's uniforms. But the response they got from other teams saying, wow, these are really cool. I wish our team would do something like that. Then they started feeling pride in it. And throughout the season, they were proud to represent the Annapolis American Legion in the 100th anniversary, especially with Annapolis being one of the original American Legion Posts.

38:40 That is so cool. Did you make them, were the jerseys made with, you know, like the old wool flannel kind of thing? No, I thought I'd save them from that. They were modern fabric, very, very thin fabric. But the look was as if they were 100 years old. I didn't want them to feel like that. It does get pretty hot in Maryland. It's not like it is in Texas, but it can get pretty hot there. I mean, but can you imagine doing that in Texas too? Like, you know, like reading- Texas league. Yeah, exactly. Like I'm reading about like, you know, Rube Foster and like thinking about this guy, you know, in the early 1900s, you know, before he got really heavy and being a pitcher and like, oh my God, you had to wear this in the Texas heat.

39:26 Oh my God. We're in the middle of October and it was 95 today. I had to play fall ball. You're not going to get any relief. We got a couple more here. Who's this Monarchs guy here? That is Wilbur Bullet Rogan, who is kind of, you know, when people talk about Shohei Otani and, you know, doing the two-way thing with pitching and hitting, you know, they talk about Ruth kind of being like one of the first to do that. Rogan was another one who did it and did it very well.

40:08 I, this, this particular image just dates from 1924 from the first game or before the first game of the, I have to make sure I get this right. It was the, in 24, it was the Colored World Series, I think they called it. So it was the first game of the series between them and, and Hilldale, between the Monarchs and Hilldale. And Yeah, I actually had, through newspaper accounts, the colors of the Monarch's jersey locked down, which I was super, super, super happy with. So I'm happy to say that this is probably as historically accurate as I can get it.

40:52 The coolest thing about this portrait, though, is that I did a color study for it years ago, and This along with a lot of other color studies I did of various Negro and Latin American leaguers was displayed at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City. And during the reception for this opening of this show, I'm kind of walking around and there's someone looking at this exact portrait, or at least a color study of this exact portrait, looking at it and really kind of taking it in. And he sees me and he turns around and he shakes my hand and he says, you know, you really got him right.

41:35 You know, this... Like, this feels like him. Like, this is my grandfather. And I'm like, what? That's cool. You're Bullet Rogan's grandson? And like, I'm shaking his hand and I'm like, you know, felt like I met the Pope or something like that. His name wasn't Joe Rogan, was it? No, no, it wasn't Joe Rogan. Or at least not to my knowledge. I've had Bob Kendrick on my podcast twice, and he's got the best stories ever. Oh, he's the best, isn't he? He is. I love him so much. He's like, you know, I never got to meet Buck O'Neill, and I kind of feel like having Bob around is kind of like the next best thing ever.

42:23 I love that man. He's such a sweetheart. Yeah, he's great. All right, let's go. We got the last one here. Tell me about this one. It's a large painting of, so this is the Wheeling Green Stockings playing the Kalamazoo Kazoos in May 1888. Kalamazoo Kazoos. Right? Like that name is incredible. This was a commission from a client. He just happened to really love this particular photograph, and I did too. Images of the sport from the 19th century are pretty tough to come by.

43:04 Getting actual on-the-field images from that era are nearly impossible. This is kind of like one of the only ones that I've seen. And, you know, it's like, I just think it's so great. You have these two teams in these, you know, 19th century togs and this crowd in this wooden grandstand that looks like it's about to burn down. And, you know, you have the town in the background. One of the cool things about this that I... It was like an almost incredibly cool, but it's still cool. So these Greenstockings, the Wheeling Greenstockings, actually were one of the original professional teams that Saul White played on, who was also considered one of the grandfathers of black baseball.

43:56 And he, in this particular month, I think, was not with the team, but... In my head, I'm thinking, oh my god, if this could have been a month after, Saul White could be on that field. That is just so freaking cool to me. But yeah, this was a monster. So much detail. So much detail. Well, thanks a lot for sharing those stories. That was an interesting little baseball history trail there. That was really fun. I hope it wasn't too, you know, circuitous or whatever. No, that was great. All right. In a 2025 interview, you chose Kurt Flood among five figures who could represent baseball's history. What about his story earns a place alongside the game's most recognizable names?

44:40 Well, so I picked Kurt, I think, because I was really kind of obsessed with his story. And I know that a lot of people, certainly a lot of people my age might not know who Kurt Flood is, but... Just the idea that literally every modern baseball player owes something to Kurt and what he went through with the whole free agency thing and literally having his career and in many ways his livelihood destroyed because of the reserve clause. I thought that his story was incredibly important to the history of the game, just in the same way that Jackie's story is important and all those other guys.

45:24 And I think maybe there's a little bit of me like, you know, kind of being a weird contrarian in that I didn't want to like give a name that like, you know, I think everybody would have looked for. So I just thought, I thought like Kurt Flood, you know, his story is so important and really important. And, you know, it's important to me, like it's always been important to me to have certain players be recognized, you know, like not only the stars, not only Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig and Mantle and Ted Williams and those types, but, you know, the stars. There are players in this sport who have played such a big role in its history, whether it was outside the lines or not, just kind of just being a part of that overall fabric of that tapestry, of the baseball history tapestry.

46:09 And I think that Kurt is... A big part of that. I think he's a very important part of that tapestry. So that was kind of important to me. People like Shohei Otani and Vladimir Guerrero Jr. and Kyle Tucker, those guys definitely owe Kurt Flood some kind of flowers on his grave. I mean, it's weird because at the thing at the Negro League Baseball Museum that I mentioned before, not at the reception event, but at another event that weekend, I met Kurt's widow. And in my head, I'm like, same thing. It's like, you know, you're talking to royalty, you know, like, and the fact that you don't have people like, you know, dropping rose petals on the ground for her, you know.

46:54 It's like, why? Why don't you do this? It's funny how you talk about siblings or relatives of past greats and how important they are to your way of thinking, too. On my episode that airs the week that we're recording this, I had Reed Ryan as my guest. Oh, cool. He had some great Nolan Ryan stories. One was one of the funniest stories I've ever heard in my life. I laughed so hard. You'll have to listen to that episode if you haven't already. Yeah, I have to check that out. What is that like growing up with Nolan Ryan as your father? Yeah, the angle I came to the story was him growing up in the shadow of a legend.

47:35 And I talked about his mom, Ruth Ryan, and her husband, Nolan. That's how I framed it. Probably appreciated that. Yeah. All right. So as we start to wind down this conversation, I've got five rapid fire questions for you. So just give me some quick answers here. Okay. I'll try to make it quick. Okay. One vanished ballpark you'd visit for an afternoon. It's either Polo Grounds or Ebbets. Ebbets came to my head first. So it's either Polo Grounds or Ebbets. Okay. One player you'd want to sit beside on a long train ride. Buck O'Neill. That would be a great one. That would be the shortest train ride ever because his stories would just pass the time. I know. What's the hardest thing for you to paint?

48:16 Eyes, hands, or pinstripes? Oh, my God. Pinstripes. Pinstripes are tough, man. I mean, it's all kind of tough. Let's say this. It's not a specific thing or subject. The hardest thing to paint is always anything that I'm trying to kind of get to the point where I think it needs to be in my head or where I think it should be. Quality-wise, I think that's the answer that I would pick. Okay. If that makes sense, I'm not sure. Yes. All right. One overlooked player every listener should look up. All right. I'm going to do Hall of Famer, and I'm staying in the Black Leagues here because I'm working on a painting of him now. Pete Hill. I think people should look him up.

48:56 He's a Hall of Famer, not... As well known as Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson. But he was, I think, kind of compared to, say, Ty Cobb. And was playing around the same time as Cobb was. But it was very fast. Hit for average. Line drive hitter. Was just on a ton of really, really amazing black teams, too. Yeah, I love Pete Hill. He's awesome. That's a great name because as well as I know baseball history, I don't know that name. So I'm going to have to look him up. All right. The last question of the day. Sure. One baseball memory from your own life that you would frame forever.

49:36 Man, that I would frame forever. All right. It's a very kind of like mundane memory. Is that OK? Of course. OK. Being at Yankee Stadium, being a young kid, we're sitting behind home plate in the upper deck, and for whatever reason, my dad is a couple of rows over, still on the same level, but a couple of rows over, and foul ball gets hit in his direction, and I can still in my head see him reaching for it. Wasn't even close to getting it. Didn't get it. But just like, you know, seeing like the wave, that motion like in the crowd of like the group of people that are going for the ball.

50:17 And it was like one of the first times I saw my dad like do anything physical. Not that he isn't physical, but like. That's funny. That's funny. That would be the memory. Sorry, dad. I know you're going to watch this. All right. That's a good way to wind this down with you ruining your relationship. Yeah. So I'm honored to have one of America's finest painters on the show today, Greg Kreidler. Thank you so much for sharing your time and talents with us. I'm truly honored. Honor is all on my end, Melvin. Thank you so much. Thank you. So click on the link to see more of his awesome paintings, and I'll tell you which one I want if you're interested in getting me a gift for Christmas.

51:01 So that's it for this week's episode of Stories from Real Life. Until next time, don't forget to shine your light wherever you go. [music] That was Stories from Real Life. Join us again next week for another great storytelling journey. See you next time. [music] Stories from Real Life is a production of Media Well Done, LLC.