Signs and Wonders and The Local Church

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Dr. Ray: Hey, everyone, Dr. Ray Self. Welcome to Self Salk with me, Dr. Ray Self. Won't do any more– I won't do any self puns today, but I could be a little self-aware. That's the last one I'm going to do. Anyway, this is going to be a great show today. We're sponsored by the International College of Ministry at icmcollege.org. icmcollege.org. You know the story. We're enrolling now. We're always enrolling. If God's called you, um, if God's called you to the ministry, you need to get equipped. We're fully accredited. Got associates, bachelor's, master's, and doctoral programs enrolling now. Check it out. That's my promo, but I'm excited about this show today. Uh, I've got a special guest, and it is, I call him Dr. Pastor because he is a doctor and he is a pastor. Chris McCall of Destiny Church in the mighty metropolis of Gulfport, Mississippi. Beautiful Gulfport, Mississippi. Hey, Pastor Chris. Glad you're with us. 

Pastor Chris: Amen, Doc. It's a privilege. It's an honor as always. 

Dr. Ray: Well, you know, thank you so much. And uh, uh Pastor, Pastor Chris is a good friend of mine. He's one of my best friends in the world. And uh, pastors an incredible church that uh, I get– I'm very blessed to get a chance to work with quite often in Gulfport, Mississippi. Destiny Church on Three Rivers Road. If you're ever near Gulfport or anywhere within a 100-mile radius, you need to go to Destiny Church. Ha ha ha.

Pastor Chris: Amen. 

Dr. Ray: That church is, is happening. It is definitely happening. And it's just so, so, I'm so blessed to have you here. So, what I want to talk to you about is, um, signs and wonders in the church. I've been doing a series of podcasts about the supernatural. How as Christians, we have a commandment to flow in the supernatural. You know, these signs will follow those that believe. These signs will– and if we're a believer, signs and wonders should be a part of us. 

Pastor Chris: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: But the question that that begs is, um, and it all started with the other night in my home. I had a, a home group, and, and I was talking about signs and wonders and the baptism of the Holy Spirit with a couple of my members of my home group who, who were visitors from another church. And when I was sharing with them about the supernatural and, and the Holy– being filled with the Holy Spirit and, and moving in words of knowledge and words of wisdom and prophecy and healing and deliverance and miracles and tongues, they had never really heard of it. And they said, "Well, why doesn't my church– why does my church share this with us? Why didn’t my church teach this?" And so, you know, and they did receive, and miracles happened to them right there that night. But that's a milli– that's a great question. So why are we not seeing signs and wonders, the supernatural, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the manifestation gifts of the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, deliverance? Why are we not seeing this so much in the church? I mean, what what's, what's going on? And that's my question to you. It's a loaded question, so I'll just give it to you, Pastor Chris. 

Pastor Chris: Amen, Dr. Ray. I uh, I really believe that uh, that we have seen some things happen in the church that, that has hindered a lot of conversation about miracles and supernatural things. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Pastor Chris: Uh, uh, I believe one of the things that, that I have meditated on that I've watched because I've attended several of them, and that is a lot of the church growth conferences, things of that nature. Uh, not that they're bad in and of themselves because they do promote trying to get people born again and grow churches and, and that is a measure of quote success. Uh, but it seems like that the church turned the corner, that it's like, in order to keep that church growth model going and moving forward, we need to back off of talking about the things that the, the world finds to be a little weird. Uh, the, the, you talked about the Holy Ghost experience of tongue talking and, and all, and, and the world has developed their own thoughts in a lot of ways about that and uh, so when you start talking about the manifestation of the supernatural happening in the now, because people don't have a problem somebody talking about what happened back in the Bible days, uh, to get where we're at but, but we're just talking about in 2025 they're just not as, as apt to see that as happening now. But I think that large in part, I think the responsibility falls greatly upon the five-fold ministry, the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, the, the pastor, and the teacher. Uh, because the scripture clearly said that Jesus gave those as gifts to the church for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry. What is the work of the ministry? He said, "The works that you see me doing, you'll do also, and greater works than these shall you do." So, the works of the ministry was promoting the things of the kingdom of God. And I believe that, that, what we have seen is we've seen a backing off of that. And, and we want to, if I could just say we, we go to John chapter 3, John chapter 4, where the woman had experience at, the woman at the well, and she had salvation as a well of living water springing up into everlasting life. But we don't go to John chapter 7 where Jesus said that the, the Holy Ghost is going to come on you and it's going to be like rivers of living water springing up from your innermost being. And I believe that the, the difference between the two is a well is not a powerhouse like rivers. So I believe he's making a distinction about, about two things happening that we need to recognize that the journey of knowing Jesus. It, it's a progression that moves into from a well of living water to a rivers of living water, which is a release of power. You will, ”You shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you'll be witnesses to me.” And when we see the following of what looked like witnesses from the apostles and the disciples, uh, my son-in-law preached on Stephen last week. Dynamic message because he said Stephen wasn't acknowledged as an apostle. He wasn't acknowledged as a prophet. Stephen was a, a table waiter. He was waiting tables. But yet, he had signs, wonders, and miracles happening in such large quantity that he ended up being the first martyr of the church. And uh, and so we believe and see that God really wanted to get this message of the supernatural and the manifestation of miracles into the body of Christ. Not just five-fold ministry people operating in the supernatural, but yet, the the body needs to be equipped and needs to be activated and released on assignment to step out in this. Because I believe, Dr. Ray, that, that God, the, one of the things that's going to impact this last day harvest is people are going out and they're going out with power of the Holy Ghost. They're going out with the gifts of the Spirit, prophesying, sharing words of knowledge with people, and then actually giving a demonstration of the Spirit and power of God so that folks are understanding that you know what, this had to be God. This is not something that any person could do. This had to be God. Which then turns all the glory back to God. So that now we are promoting through demonstration the very thing that the word of God says about the church operating in power and authority in Jesus Christ.

Dr. Ray: Amen. Amen. And I think that teaching is, is key. You know, teaching– and also, to me and you know, I', I've pastored you know, several churches, and I, and I'm a teacher, and I'm a preacher. I'm a teacher, and I've learned that when you teach it, you should expect it. And so in my church, you know, we would teach about the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, the manifestation gifts. We would teach about the five-fold. We, we would, we would teach the gospel and, and then, but we would allow the Holy Spirit to confirm, to confirm the word with signs and wonders. 

Pastor Chris: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: And a lot of it was teaching. And I think in some of the traditional churches, I remember the traditional church I grew up, we would teach about the miracle of salvation and having eternal life and being redeemed and justified and sanctified and, and how, and being, you know, made into a new creation, which is incredibly miraculous. 

Pastor Chris: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: But we skipped over these other miracles, the healing, the deliverance, the tongues, the prophecy. We, we skipped over that part. And it to me, it's a little dangerous to say, "Well, yeah, the, that, that, that miracle of salvation, that's still going on, but this other stuff is not going on." Or, “we don't want that to go on because it may scare some people off. We're trying to get numbers in our church.” 

Pastor Chris: Right. Right. Well, I believe…Brother Hagen, Brother Hagen Senior, who's gone on to be with the Lord, um, I heard him teach several times, uh, had the opportunity to be in service with him quite a bit. Uh, and brother Hagen used to say that many times in his meetings, he would have to go in and sometimes preach a week and teach the people faith, teach them what the word of God says that Jesus accomplished through the redemption package. Uh, because there's, as you said, the redemption package is a package. It's not just salvation through the blood. Uh, it carries healing. It carries deliverance. It carries all of those things; it brings freedom and peace and joy into a believer's life. And he said he'd have to teach many times a week just to get people's faith stirred up so that he could then begin to operate in the gifts of the Spirit and see miracles, signs, and wonders, see demons cast out, see all the stuff that the Bible teaches should be happening in the church. It, it, it would have to go through a process because people didn't know anything. They didn't, they didn't have a knowledge base of the word of God in order to expect and believe that. And so I believe that we have a responsibility in the body of Christ, especially as leaders in the church. I mean, if we're operating as pastors, if we're operating as teachers or or whatever the case may be, we have an obligation not just to stay focused on one area, uh, and be good at that area, but we have an obligation to make sure the church is being exposed to the full gospel, not just what I'm comfortable with. Because I found over the years, Dr. Ray, that I'm not, I'm not gifted and professional in all things of the gospel. There are some things I'm stronger in than I am other things. But I've learned that in order for the church to be healthy, I bring in people where I'm not as strong as somebody else's giftings. I will bring them in and have them to teach in our church, making sure that our church is getting the teaching and the focus so that they can then be commissioned and activated to go on assignment to carry out the gospel. 

Dr. Ray: I want to interrupt you. That's a really good point. So, if you're a pastor listening to this, or church leader, and you say, "Well, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with, with, with teaching on the manifestation of the Holy Spirit or teaching on the prophetic or whatever it is." You can bring people in who, who are. But we have, we have to as, as church leaders, we have to make an attempt to, to teach and preach the full gospel. And the gospel message, even Jesus's message, when Jesus, He's, Jesus was our model. He was the perfect teacher, the perfect preacher, the perfect man of God, the perfect minister. And in His perfection, what did He do? He taught, He preached, and He also moved in signs and wonders. And I remember when I was a young man growing up in the traditional church, I said, "Well, yeah, He did all that stuff because He was Jesus, you know, He, He was supposed to do all that stuff." But I did, I missed the part where it was, “wait a minute, believers were supposed to do that, too.” You know…

Pastor Chris: Yes.

Dr. Ray: …we're called to do John 14:12, those that believe will do the same things. And so, we're supposed to be doing it, too. And so, what I began to realize when I got older and a little more mature was Jesus was not doing it just because He was the Son of God. He was showing us how to minister. He's our…

Pastor Chris: That’s right, amen. 

Dr. Ray: He was showing us how to minister. This is how you do it. And what did he do? He taught. He counseled. He preached. He, He, He evangelized. He did all that stuff. And He healed the sick and raised the dead and cast out demons. 

Chris McCall: That's right. Amen. Yeah. I believe, I believe that the purpose for Jesus even living those 33 years, uh, as a human being on the planet was simply to give a visual example of what He was expecting when He left. This is what I expect the church will look like. It wasn't about, you know, Him trying to prove to somebody who He was, right? I don't think He had any intention. He didn't really care what you thought about who He was. He was doing what He was doing because He knew He had to make an impact on the people that were watching and listening. And He wanted them to go and do what they had seen and heard and follow that example and walk that out. And I, I think that, I think that many times we're seeing, uh, people that, that are afraid to uh, encourage people to step up and and go out and do it. Uh, simply because sometimes I mean, people are just, just afraid somebody's not going to do it right. And I'm saying to people at Destiny, I'm saying what's right? What's right and what's wrong? I mean, if you're following what the word of God says, it– there ain't a, there ain't a wide interpretation of lay hands on the sick, and they recover. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Pastor Chris: I mean, there, a, it's, it's hard to misinterpret what that says. Uh, and, and I'm saying to people, I'm saying, "Hey, quit making this so difficult that you have to have all the right words, whatever." I said, "This doesn't have to be a show. Go into Walmart. You see somebody on the frozen food aisle, and you know, you see, and God begins to show you that they got a, they got a challenge in their life right now, or they got a challenge in their body right now. It doesn't need to be this wild display of, of emotions going on. I can simply ask the person, “Can I pray for you? Do you realize that the word of God says that God has provided healing for our body, and I would love to pray for you if you would allow me to,” and simply pray for them. It doesn't, again, we get all caught up in, “Well, I'm not sure how to pray.” What do you mean you don't know how to pray? “Jesus, you said in your word that you would heal the sick if we laid hands on them prayed for them. I'm laying hands on this, this friend of mine I just met at Walmart, and I'm asking you to heal their body right now in Jesus name.” And then leave it alone because you did everything the gospel said. You trusted God. You released faith in God. And now you let God move in that situation. 

Dr. Ray: And you know, pastor, on that point, if we have the Holy Spirit, we are the temple of the Holy Ghost, if, if you're Pentecostal. If you're charismatic, we're the temple of the Holy Spirit. But if we have the Holy Spirit living within us and He wants to live in us and also flow through us, right? He wants to use us. So the gifts of the Holy Spirit, healing, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, miracles, faith, tongues, interpretation of tongues. If the Holy Spirit's living within us, then those gifts have to be within us, do they not? I mean, He's, He's with, He's in, He's in, He's in our heart. We're the temple and it's, it's the, it's the manifestation. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 12, the manifestation of the Spirit’s given for the common good. So all that means is the word manifest means evidence. So the evidence of the Holy Spirit living within us is the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which is healing and words of knowledge and words of wisdom, and miracles. I mean, we have the Giftgiver, the, the one who creates and owns and operates in the gifts lives within us. So the capability is there. We just have to cooperate.

Pastor Chris: Right 

Dr. Ray: Maybe I oversimplified it, but I don't know. 

Pastor Chris: The, I believe the Holy Spirit is that, that, that connection of heaven and earth colliding. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Pastor Chris: Because He lives in us, but He also exists with the Father and the Son. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Pastor Chris: And heaven has all provisions that we need. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Pastor Chris: And so with us being full of the Holy Ghost, we lack nothing. We lack no good thing to carry out the mandate of the gospel. We should not be intimidated. We should not be afraid. Uh, and I know that all of us, including me, has been in them moments to where you lay hands on somebody and it just doesn't happen the way you envisioned it was going to happen,

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Pastor Chris: But I literally had to come to the place to where I understood that I resigned the results not on myself but the results on my Lord.

Dr. Ray: Amen. 

Pastor Chris: And so I don't always, God don't always give me the full picture of what He's doing and how He's going to do it. What He told me to do is I want you to trust me and operate in faith that I am faithful and that I'm going to do everything that I said I'd do because I'm watching over my word to perform it. So, what I want you to do is go out and obey my word and continue to obey my word, no matter what you see in the natural. I want you just to obey my word, and great things are going to happen if you do that. 

Dr. Ray: And you see, that's the step out. Obey my word. Great things will happen. And so my experience has been some Christians, they think in order to move supernaturally, something supernatural, you have to have this supernatural feeling come over you, you know. And actually, it's not. I mean, I have prayed for people and seen miracles right in front of my eyes and felt nothing, okay. But, and then I've say, I've prayed for people and felt, and seen nothing. You don't ever know, that's between them and God. But our job is to step out, to step, uh, like you said, put your hand on them. Say, "Lord Jesus, I thank you, Father, for my sister. Lord, I pray, Father. Lord, she says that she's got a, a stomach ulcer. Father, your word says that by His stripes, we are healed. Lord, I thank you, Father, that my sister is healed. By His stripes now, Father, in your name, we command this ulcer to be healed." And so, it's just, it's that's what, that's our, my job, you know.” It's, and sometimes, I sometimes I like to proclaim healing over people. I'm not just asking God to heal them. I, I do that. But also, I take authority over that disease because the Bible says He's given us authority over snakes and scorpions and all the power of the enemy. Okay? And, and matter of fact, the Bible says that we will cast out demons and we will heal the sick. Of course, everything that you do or I do, it's, it's not, we're, we're obeying God, but it's the Holy Spirit in us doing the work, and Jesus gets the glory. 

Pastor Chris: Right. 

Dr. Ray: So it, one time the Lord gave me an example. You know, I used to play a lot of sports and stuff. He said, because I wasn't sure about doing all this stuff, and He said, “Why don't you step up to the plate and swing the bat and see what happens?” I understood that. A lot of people say, “Well, I, well, I, I can't, I can't hit a baseball. I can't do that.” Well, why don't you step up to the plate, trust Me and swing the bat, and see what happens? 

Pastor Chris: Yeah. 

Dr. Ray: That's what, that's how He told me. 

Pastor Chris: Amen. Well, Dr. Ray, I, I, one of, one of the greatest testimonies I've ever heard that really stirred my faith and my confidence was David Hogan. Uh, when David Hogan, missionary in Mexico, uh, David has been known for over 300 people being raised from the dead in his ministry down in Mexico. Uh, people getting out of wheelchairs and all that. But I heard him in a meeting one night. He said, "You know, people always telling me about, man, how did you get, how did you get people to start getting out of wheelchairs?" He said, "I'm going to tell you right now." He said, "I prayed for 52 people in wheelchairs before the first person ever got out of a wheelchair healed." He said, "What if I would have stopped at 51?" 

Dr. Ray: Well, that's a good point. Yeah.

Pastor Chris: And that, that ministered to me. And I said, "You know what, Lord? I am committed to do what your word says. Regardless of what I see with my physical eyes, I'm going to continue to believe your word and do what your word says, and I'm going to watch the manifestation of the results take place. Uh, you said something a second ago that, that I heard some misunderstanding teaching, I guess is the way I'll say it, uh, years ago. And that was on the gifts of the Spirit that you know, that the, the interpretation some people get is, to one He gives the gift of healing to one He gives the gift of knowledge, and whatever. And, and uh, and I was given the uh, impression that, that you, once you get, if you get the gift of healing, that's your gift and that's, that's the gift you have. And really, when I went to prayer about that, uh, the Holy Spirit really ministered to me more of what you said just a little bit ago, and He said, “The gift that you receive is me, the Holy Spirit.” And He said, “When you receive me, guess what, all of those things flow in Me, so if I'm in you, all of them's in you.” He said, "But I choose what I need to use at the moment to accomplish the job that's at hand. I want the freedom to operate in you as my vessel and operate whatever gift is necessary to accomplish the goal that we're after." And that really opened my eyes to the fact that again, I am, I am the the container of God's presence. 

Dr. Ray: Yep. 

Pastor Chris: God's anointing, and because I am yielding and surrendering myself completely to God, He wants me to be sensitive to His Spirit so that when God begins to show things that needs to take place and needs to happen, all He's asking for is my obedience. Just like you said a while ago, some people would misconstrue sometimes what we would say about, "No, God said Peter healed the sick. Paul healed the sick." And then somebody's going to get into a debate with us because, "Oh, oh, you think you can heal the sick?" Well, no, we're not going to debate that. It's not about that. I believe that I am full of the Holy Ghost presence of God, which is I have all of God in me on the inside of me. So, do I believe because all of God lives inside of me, the presence of God through me can heal the sick, which is going to give the appearance that as soon as I laid my hands on that person, all of a sudden, a miracle happened. So, they're going to equate that I was involved in them getting healed, which is the truth. I didn't do it because I'm not a miracle worker, but I am the vessel that has yielded to the Holy Spirit to carry out the, the purpose and plan that God wants to do. 

Dr. Ray: Well, and it's interesting you say that because I, I don't get– we could get hung up on, on that because I agree with you 100%. But no, I agree with you 100%. Uh, but you know, it says again in Mark, it says, "These signs shall follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues.” And then it goes um, and “they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover in My name.” So it says we will do it in His name. 

Pastor Chris: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: And so, and the Bi– the Bible actually does say that Paul healed the people, all the people in the island of Malta, that Peter raised this. But when you look when Peter did it, he said, “In the name of Jesus, rise up and walk.” Okay. 

Pastor Chris: Yeah. 

Dr. Ray: So it's Jesus doing it. So, we don't want to get too hung up on that, but we are to cooperate. But the problem that I run across is people go, "Well, I'm going to ask God to heal them." Well, God told you to do something. 

Pastor Chris: Yeah, you do it. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Pastor Chris: You release the faith. 

Dr. Ray: Right.

Pastor Chris: You release the confidence. 

Dr. Ray: I, I can tell you one, one quick story about raising the, raising the dead that I don't know, for some reason, I thought that to share this. Maybe it'll help somebody. So, uh, I probably told you this story before, but you and I talk a lot, but I was in this church office in Mississippi, North Mississippi, uh, with a really good pastor friend of mine, and there was a car wreck. It was on a two-lane, the church office was on a two-lane highway in North Mississippi. And there was a really bad car wreck right in front of the church. And the pastor and I walked out, and there was a lady who' been, apparently had been thrown through the windshield, and she was lying on the concrete, and she looked dead. Oh man, if, I, I mean, I, I didn't know if she was alive or dead, but at first glance you'd go, "Well, she's dead." And so I looked at the pastor, and he looked at me, and all of a sudden, I felt like I heard the Lord say, "Rebuke the spirit of death." And I, it's just like a voice, God's voice. “Rebuke the spirit of death.” And I looked at the pastor. I said, "Pastor, I think we're supposed to rebuke the spirit of death." And so we, we, we put our hands on her. I said, "We renounce, and we rebuke the spirit of death over this woman." And just about that time, as we're praying for her, all of a sudden, the paramedics show up, the ambulance shows up. Of course, we back off, and we go back into the church office. Didn't really know anything had happened. So, the next day, this lady's husband shows up at the church and goes, "Where, where are the guys that, that prayed for my wife?" And, you know, we said, "Well, yeah, we, you know, we prayed for her.” Well, “She was dead. They told me she was dead, but now she's alive. She came back." I said, "She did? Praise God.

Pastor Chris: Praise God. Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Ray: So, she, the, the paramedics had told him, "Your wife is dead." The paramedics had pronounced her dead, and he said, "I don't know what happened, but she came back." I said, "All right."

Pastor Chris: Praise God. Yes. 

Dr. Ray: But see, we didn't do anything, but in that situation, I think what happened was that the Holy Spirit gave instructions.

Pastor Chris: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: And I think part of the deal to moving in signs and wonders is let the Holy Spirit give you instructions on what He wants you to do and obey Him.

Pastor Chris: Obedience. 

Dr. Ray: If that makes sense. 

Pastor Chris: Yes. Amen. 

Dr. Ray: So it's, it's obedience. You know, you look at Jesus, He He He did it so many different ways. Sometimes He, He would just speak from a distance. Sometimes, He laid hands on them. Sometimes He didn't lay hands on them. Sometimes He'd tell them to wash, sometimes– Didn't He put mud in somebody's eyes? 

Pastor Chris: Spit, um… 

Dr. Ray: Spit. He spit. Yeah. Well, who was telling Him to do that? 

Pastor Chris: Right. Holy Spirit. 

Dr. Ray: Holy Spirit. Yeah. So, I don't know about you, but I think the full gospel message, um, I think today we have a lot of motivational speaking. And I think there's a place for motivational speaking. I think there's a place for encouragement. I think there's a place, uh, obviously, for salvation, the greatest miracle of all, salvation. But we can't, I, I pray the church will quit leaving out the rest of the story. 

Pastor Chis: Jesus is not either or. It's not either or. It's the full gospel. 

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Pastor Chris: We must be encouraged. We must have affirmation. We must have all that. But we also need power. 

Dr Ray: Yes. 

Pastor Chris: We also, we, we need the full gospel. We need to be rebuked when sin is happening in our life. We need somebody to love us enough to rebuke the sin in our life. But at the same time, we need to be encouraged and loved and, and and embraced by the body. Amen. We need to be getting healed. We need to be getting delivered. We need to stop splitting hairs over doctrinal issues.

Dr. Ray: Yeah. I hear you. 

Pastor Chris: We need to see God be released in, in supernatural signs and miracles and wonders so that the gospel can be proclaimed all over the world in a most powerful way. 

Dr. Ray: You know, that's a good point. And I think in our churches, you know, we have our, our program, we have a what they call order of service, and I've seen them so many times. We have an order of service. Here's the announcements. Here's praise and worship. Then we're going to do uh, the offering, then we're going to do the word. I think in an order of service, we need to have, make room. Make room for the Holy Ghost. Make room for Him. 

Pastor Chris: Spontaneous… 

Dr. Ray: …the end or in the, wherever. Make room for Him. You know, don't, don't program Him out. It, it to me, I think we can structure Him out. And if there's going to be signs and wonders in the church, we have to have time for that in the service. 

Pastor Chris: Right. Well, we have to get the dove out of the cage. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Pastor Chris: That they had Him in, in the temple. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Pastor Chris: And we have to loose Him and let Him be free in the church to do what He wants to do. As you said, He needs to, there needs to be room and, and make room for the Holy Spirit to have access to change whatever He needs to change. It's unfortunate. Many churches we know today, there is the, the Holy Spirit is not going to get to change nothing that's on the program because we've, we've planned this. This is the way it's going to go. And if He's going to move, He's going to have to move within these parameters. And uh, the Holy Spirit doesn't do that very well. And I don't know, you know, some people have their own feelings about the show, The Chosen, but this last season that just finished up, that we saw uh, was amazing because He dealt with the temple and all that. And it was so amazing to see a visual effect of Jesus loving people but at the same time being angry with people that has been deceived and misled to not follow really what God's heart was and God's intent was for His house of prayer and that it had become that den of thieves and merchandising and uh, and Jesus was there to, to bring correction. And I think, I think we're kind of at that place now that we're seeing a lot of people in different denomination settings, even that the walls are coming down and people are coming together. Uh, I'm, I'm going to a breakfast with First Baptist of Gulfport's pastor who I met at National Day of Prayer, and he is on fire guy, and uh, I'm about to connect with him on, a on a mandate for the city of Gulfport that we are going to knock on every single door in Gulfport in the city of Gulfport and and give out uh, Jesus films and all that and have opportunities to present the gospel and pray for people. And so, you know, me, my team is going to be door to door, and when opportunity happens, we're going to be laying hands on the sick. We're going to be ministering to people and, and do that. But, you know, it, it, it's the thing that God is, is tearing down walls of division and bringing people together. Some people don't even know really what that, what it is that they're feeling, but they sense something in their heart that says we've got to have God to move our city, or nothing's ever going to change. And uh, I believe that, that uh, I don't know, if it's, Benny Hinn, I think it was, made the statement one time that miracles, signs, and wonders are God's dinner bell to the gospel. And uh, and we would have to agree that miracles, signs, and wonders draw people's attention and gets people's attention to where we can literally share with them what's going on with God. And uh, that's why you and I will agree. I believe the only reason why that you could, you can see a sinner lay hands on a sinner and see a miracle take place in a sinner's life is not because God is approving and loving their sin, but it's because God is trying to get their attention that they would know that a loving, caring God cares enough about them that He knows where they're at even in their sin. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Pastor Chris: And He's touching their life so that what Jesus told the woman, go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come up on you. And, and I think that's where we've got to be. We've got to activate the church to go and not try to clean the fish before we get them in the boat. We need to just go get the fish and, and allow the Holy Spirit to move and signs and wonders, miracles, deliverance, and, and make sure that we're delivering the full salvation experience for somebody and getting them filled with the Holy Ghost. 

Dr. Ray: Amen. Oh, that's good. That's a mouthful. So, as we wrap up here, folks, let me tell you something. This moving in signs and wonders, it's good for your church. It, it, it, it builds the church, but it's also, it's an evangelistic tool. It's how Jesus evangelized and it, it's, it's part of everything. But I do feel led to say this. If, if you're listening to this podcast and you go, "Well, my church is not doing this, so I'm going to leave my church and go somewhere else." We're not saying that. We're, we're not saying that at all. My thing about church membership is you need to be where God wants you to be. You be where God has placed you to be. And God's put me in some churches in the past that I didn't agree with, but I knew this is where God wanted me to be. Uh, I didn't agree with everything I should say. But the point is, you want to be where God has, wants you to be. I mean, I pray that uh, if you're a church leader, a church pastor, and you're not flowing in the gifts that please, read the scripture again. You know, this is our mandate. It's the full gospel. Teach it. If you, if you teach it and you explain it, you can expect it to happen. I've, I've said time and time again, God will confirm His word. When you're teaching about healing and you're, you're teaching about the manifestation gifts of the Holy Spirit, I promise you it's going to happen. You're teaching about the gift of prophecy; you should expect it. You're teaching on salvation, you should expect people to be saved. Teaching is key to it. And um, but anyway, it's been a great show. We could go on forever, but it's been a great show. Thank you so much, Pastor Doctor. 

Pastor Chris: Amen. Amen. It's always a privilege, as I said earlier, Doc. I always love being with you and talking about the Word of God. And yeah, Dr. said, we, we spend hours talking about the word of God. 

Dr. Ray: We could. 

Pastor Chris: Just an honor, just to take these few minutes and share, and uh, we love you and appreciate you. 

Dr. Ray: I thank you, too. And I've been talking to, this is Dr. Chris McCall, and his beautiful wife Patty McCall, and they pastor, he's a senior pastor of Destiny Church, Gulfport, Mississippi, on Three Rivers Boulevard. Amen. You got a really good Facebook presence. You can look it up on Facebook. Um, but I would encourage you. Was it 10:00 am on Sundays? That's right? And then you have a Monday night prayer. What else? Tell me, tell me…

Pastor Chris: Monday night. Monday night revival prayer at 6:30. Wednesday night, uh, revival service at 6:30, and uh, Sunday morning at 10:00 a.m. 

Dr. Ray: 10 a.m. It's a, It's an incredible church. Uh, it's worth driving for. Matter of fact, been multiple times. I've driven 10 hours just to go to that church. 

Pastor Chris: Amen. 

Dr. Ray: And I'll be doing it again soon. Uh, let's, let's close in prayer. Pastor, you want to close us in prayer? 

Pastor Chris: Amen. Father, we love you, and we thank you, Lord, because God, you are an ever-present help in the time of need. And Father, in the hour that we find ourselves living, the church is in need, God, of revival fire to visit the local church once again. God, that you would stir the church up, God, that we recognize that, that His salvation is such a great, dynamic miracle. None will ever be greater than that. But Father, that is not where it stopped. You went on to show that you care even after salvation. God, you have miracles, signs, and wonders that you want to continue to flow within your body, God, bringing evidence to the world, God, to know that you're still moving. You're still all-powerful, still all-knowing. And God, I pray right now that people that hear this, this time, this session we were together. Lord, I pray that it would impact their heart. That pastors would find a place to get in a secret place and cry out to you, God. Even those that in the past have operated in signs, wonders, and miracles, but have become discouraged, God, and become despondent. Lord, I pray in the name of Jesus that there would be a spark that would happen. That the winds of God would blow, God, and ignite the flames once again that burned in the heart of your churches, Lord, and that God, we would raise up. We would lose the fear of not having any people. We'd lose the fear of not being able to continue to move forward. And we begin to believe, God, that Lord, when you're in control and when you're moving, we understand clearly that except the Lord build the house, they that labor, labor in vain, Lord. And so God, we don't, we're not interested in trying to build the church ourself. We want to surrender our life, God, and say, "Yes. Activate us. Release us, God. Use us for your glory, God.” Raise your body up in this hour, God, to accomplish great signs and wonders and miracles, all bringing glory to the wonderful name of Jesus. Lord, we thank you right now. Amen and amen and amen. 

Dr. Ray: Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Chris McCall. And folks, again, we're getting ready to close. Uh, please don't forget to subscribe to us. Uh, download us, share with someone, you know, share the link with someone. But uh, if you subscribe, you'll get notices on every show. And the best way to do that is go to the show website,  icmcollege.org/selftalk. icmcollege.org/selftalk will take you to the website and all the shows that– we, we've done 221 shows. They're all on the website. It's really cool website, and you can give reviews and subscribe, and that really helps us a lot. Don't forget to share it. This is Dr. Ray Self, and I'm, my special guest, uh, Dr. Pastor Chris McCall from Gulfport, Mississippi. God bless you all. Thank you so much for listening. Amen.

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