Sanctified Dysfunction

Dr. Ray: Hey, this is Dr. Ray Self. You're getting ready to listen to episode 197. In today's show, I'm interviewing a fascinating person, good friend of mine, Dr. Sandrew Wright, about what he calls sanctified dysfunction. How can dysfunction be sanctified? What does that mean? Very interesting show, and I think it's going to mean a lot to you. Please stay tuned, you're going to enjoy this show. As usual, this show is sponsored by the ministry that I was very blessed to found with the help of God, the International College of Ministry. We're enrolling right now at icmcollege.org/enroll. Thank you so much for being a part of the show. Uh, be sure and share this with people. Um, invite, subscribe, write a review - that really helps us get this message out. God bless you so much and thanks again for listening to Self Talk with me, Dr. Ray Self.

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Dr. Ray: Hey everyone, it's Dr. Ray Self, and welcome again to Self Talk with Dr. Ray Self. Very excited today. This is going to be a really special show. First off, let's do first things first. Let's pray. Heavenly Father, I thank you for this time together. I thank you for each person listening to this broadcast, Father. I pray, Father, that our words will be a blessing to them. Holy Spirit, you are welcome here, you're welcome in our hearts and our minds. Let us speak what you want us to speak. Let us hear, and let us know what you want us to know. Lord, bless everyone listening to this show today. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen, amen. 

Well, folks. Again, uh, it’s Dr. Ray Self. I believe this is our 197th episode of Self Talk - it's hard to believe we have that many episodes - but tonight, or today, whenever you listen to the show, I have a very, very special guest, a very close friend of mine, an ICM graduate - you know I love ICM - a doctoral graduate from ICM, very successful and well-known, five-star rated Christian counselor from Hernando, Florida, the one and only - drum roll, please - Dr. Sandrew Wright. So glad you're with us, Dr. Sandrew; thank you for being here. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes, it's an honor, Dr. Self, it's an honor. 

Dr. Ray: So, we were talking the other day, and uh, Dr. Wright has his way of putting out - I call them little zingers. So, he hit me with a zinger, and he said, “You know, Dr. Self, I– I’d  like sometime–let's talk about sanctified dysfunction.” And I said, “Sanctified dysfunction?” You know me, I’m think– “Sanctified dysfunction? How can dysfunction be sanctified?” So it got me thinking. I said, “Yeah, we need to talk about this. Uh, I tell you what, let's have a podcast, let's talk about sanctified dysfunction. What it is, and how it affects us.” And so, without any further ado, tell me, Dr. Wright, what the heck is sanctified dysfunction? 

Dr. Sandrew: So yeah, sanctified dysfunction is basically dysfunctional behavior, but you're attributing it to um, quote on quote godliness. Um, I always tell people if the devil can't make you do bad, he'll do the next best thing and ma– and make you busy. Um, what I mean is we can say it's ministry or “I'm doing this for the Kingdom.” And you're traveling, you're preaching the gospel, but meanwhile, while you're doing all that, you're people pleasing, having panic attacks, um, having an inability and unwillingness to hold and set boundaries, having the inability and unwillingness to live in margin, and a lack of tolerance when it comes to dealing with people. We– it's…I call it having a unconscious messianic complex. What I mean is we think we have to save everybody, or we have to do the ministry for everybody. And yes, God has called us to do some things, but he has not called us to do everything. 

Dr. Ray: Let me ask you a question. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah.

Dr. Ray: So everything you're saying sounds godly, right? I mean, it's, I'm trying to help as many people as I can, I'm trying to serve as many people as I can, I'm, I'm trying to, to pour my whole life into the Kingdom. So how is that dysfunctional again? 

Dr. Sandrew: Because…I always say this: I'd rather be a public failure and have a successful family than a public success and be a failure at home. 

Dr. Ray: Well see, I was, I was setting you up for that because I know from experience and from talking to you previously, as a minister, we can be so caught up in being godly and being for everybody and being always available 24-7, that our family and our relationships, and our mental and psychological health suffer. And that's dysfunctional. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. So many people are out building a ministry empire that they neglect the castle at home, so to speak. Um, there's a story about a mega preacher always away from home doing ministry, always putting out fires, everybody knows his name, doing incredible work for God. He said he'll never forget it. There was a day he was playing with his daughter - daughter's around four years old - he gets a call because there's a crisis in New York, they say, we need you immediately. In the middle of playing, he says, “Honey, I got to go to New York for a few days for ministry stuff, you know, you understand.” He said he'll never forget it, his four-year-old daughter said, “I hate Jesus.” He was stunned. He said, “Why would you ever say that, honey?” And the girl said, “I said I hate Jesus because He always takes you away from me all the time.” 

Dr. Ray: Oh, wow. Wow. 

Dr. Sandrew: Said the words were like a dagger, and from that day forward, he changed the way he operated his ministry. 

Dr. Ray: Yes. Oh, that's so powerful. I mean, I mean, God never called us to be so involved in ministry that we would neglect other things in our life, and it's– you can neglect your family for ministry, you can nle– neglect your marriage for ministry, you can neglect your personal health and your emotional health for ministry. And we can call it godliness, right? “Oh, I'm working for the Kingdom. Look what I'm doing for the Kingdom.” 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes, I tell people real Kingdom work, real Kingdom work is making sure your family's take care– taking care of, pouring into them, and then once that's situated, you know, you give out of excess. Now, I'm not saying don't help people, but you can't teach someone how to swim if you're drowning yourself.

Dr. Ray: Hmm, that's good. 

Dr. Sandrew: And if you really think about it, Dr. Self, overworking and even procrastination are actually signs of um, self-doubt. What I mean is, on either side of the coin, if you truly trusted God and the abilities He's given you, you wouldn't try to do the most or put things off. There's a reason why the Bible says teach us to number our days for a reason. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Sandrew: It's…Jesus…When you look at Jesus, because not only is He um, our savior in His death, but He's a model in His– our model in His life. And Jesus had the most important mission on the planet, but you never see Him rushing anywhere, or being in panic, or trying to do things in haste. He walked. And not only did He walk, He took time to rest.

Dr. Ray: Yes. 

Dr. Sandrew: And I tell people all the time, you need to rest now or rest in peace.

Dr. Ray: Yes.

Dr. Sandrew: And I know the Bible tells us love our neighbor as ourself, but it doesn't say love your neighbor in spite of yourself. 

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Dr. Sandrew: Um, maybe this helps. I, I say this a lot, too: everybody can have my ministry, but not everybody can have me. And, it's okay to be human. And…what I mean by that, because whenever someone uses the phrase, ‘I'm only human,’ so many times people think– they automatically assume it has to do with sinning, or a moral failure; and ‘I'm human,’ it means s– you're not God. It's okay to not be perfect, it's okay to not know what to say sometimes, it's, it's okay to make mistakes, to stumble. It's– When you see the incarnation, it's about God becoming a human, you know, but nowhere in the Bible do you see man becoming a God. So why do we try to do God's job for Him? And Christianity, it's, it's a completely different way of being human. It doesn't mean you're holier than thou or greater than, or you have to put out every fire you see. It's doing what God has called you to do. 

Dr. Ray: I, I, I want to interject this too because I've taught this before. You and I have talked about this. So many times, as ministers, I think we do step over that line. “I'm doing my job and I'm also doing God's job.” You know, you know, our job is to do what God's called us to do, and whether people receive it or not that, that's up to them. But so many times we step over that line and we start doing more than God asks us to do, which usually means we're stepping into His part, and when you do that, it's exhausting. Because you're carrying a weight that God never created you to carry. And all of a sudden, instead of that yoke being easy and the burden being light, the yoke is extremely heavy because you're trying to carry God's yoke, and it seems godliness, it seems like it's Godly, but actually it's sanctified dysfunction, am I on the right track there? 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes, and it even– we can take it up a notch, it can even– get– it– witchcraft. When you, when you're trying to, you know, you know what's best, “I'm just trying to help you, I, I, I can fix you, I can–” that, that's when you're really getting into some dark territory. And it's– yes, a lot of times we mean well, but God doesn't force anybody to do anything. We're trying to do something even God doesn't do, all in the name– 

Dr. Ray: Excuse me.

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah. 

Dr. Ray: When you try to force someone against their will or, or, I think, inadvertently, sometimes we get into manipulation,

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: …and control because we're so anxious to get them to understand our message and what we're trying to get across to them, that we start trying to, to make them receive it, and that can get into a spirit of control, which is rebellion, which is witchcraft. 

Dr. Sandrew: And a lot of times…

Dr. Ray: …up the door opens up, the door for it anyway. 

Dr. Sandrew: And a lot of times when people have controlling behavior, it's actually, it's, it's really bad anxiety management or them trying to manage their anxiety, like you said, in a dysfunctional way. But what makes this so interesting is Christianity, this is the only…this is like the only faith where it's– you can really…misinterpreted as like codependency, what I'm getting at. If you don't interpret Christianity correctly, you can really get into the areas of codependency think– thinking, “I got to do what's right, I gotta, I gotta save you, I gotta–” it's…we're just– we're called to love people, we're not called to fix or change or do, or do anything because when you do that, you're actually– you're like speaking down to them.

Dr. Ray: Right.

Dr. Sandrew: You know, interpreting it as, you know, you're, you know, “you're better than me,” or whatever. That's not a– yeah.

Dr. Ray: I often said this: the moment we try to fix someone, we're actually rejecting them.

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

Dr. Ray: We're telling them, “Hey, you're broken, I'm not. I'm above, you're beneath. I'm the head, and you're the tail,” and it's a bad message. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: We’re called to serve, not fix.

Dr. Sandrew: And, and that's the beauty of Christianity, is that God uses broken people, you know, to minister to other broken people. But a lot of times when we're doing God's work, we think we, we've arrived, quote on quote; or we're better than, or– That's why, that's why I say that. That's why I say it's okay to be human. I'm not, I'm not– and I'm not giving a license to sin or anything like that, Dr. Self, but it's, it's okay to…There's so many times I have Pastor friends, they think– they say, “I have to know what to say,” or, “I have to,” you know, give, give that…give that word. It's okay to not know what to say. It's okay to say, “You know what? I really do not know, but I can refer you out.” A lot of times, pastors-- they are the worst when it comes to referring out.

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah. 

Dr. Ray: Usually, I don't know what to say, so I throw a scripture at you.

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: Let me ask you a question. So…because I've struggled with this. So many times, you know, I ,I get texts, phone calls, emails, constantly, constantly. And I, I tend to be– I'm a minister, you know, I love people - I've got to minister to people. And so my wife sometimes would talk to me, she says, “You don't have to answer that right now, you can wait. You know, it's, it's Sunday afternoon, you can rest.” And I…honestly, I have a hard time doing that. I mean, I've, I've got to answer every text. Matter of fact, just before we, we started this podcast, I was looking at a phone call I missed, oh, I didn't return that phone call. And here it is, you know, it's evening time and I feel this, like, “oh, I've got to do this, I've got to do that,” and then meanwhile, I'm exhausting myself, but I feel like, “oh, I've got to be there for everybody.” So would you call that sanctified dysfunction? 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes, and it– if you're even get– you can even actually get into like enabling with that because you're teaching people whenever they're in a crisis to call you. Instead of– you– instead of to…relying on God. God is to…is there, is– He's omnipotent, omnipresent. But, I tell people you– like we, we teach people how to treat us. What I mean is they know, “Oh, they have a crisis, Ray Self, he's going to pick up after that second ring.” You know, “I just– that's –it's always two rings and he's there,” and what happens is it actually– people can't grow in the shade. It actually…kind of– there, it's learn– it's like learned helplessness. They, they know they can– they look to– and a lot of preachers, they, they, they, they actually kind of like it. They like feeling important, they like having that feeling of, “I'm the guy,” you know, “I'm that guy. They have to call me,” you know, “I'm the one who can save the–” When you really look at it, God never gave one person everything. There was always throughout ministry– there's Paul and Silas, Moses and Joshua, you know, there's al– there's always groups, there's plurality, there's teams. And that's why– that– the reason why God does that is so we don't burn out. We don't try to do more than God has called us to do. 

Dr. Ray: Just recently, a few months ago, I was talking to a pastor's wife. She called me, actually, over some other issues, but she said, “You know, I feel like my marriage has been sacrificed on the altar of ministry.” 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

Dr. Ray: And I thought, “Wow,” and I'm going… So we think about all these things that we're doing for God. We're serving people, we're counseling people, we're ministering to people, we're preaching, we're teaching, we're, we're, we're doing conferences, we're, we're taking this next trip, this mission trip, but we're sacrificing maybe our marriage, our health, our, our psyche, our bodies. Even me, I– you know, I'm a very transparent guy, I was um, working as a businessman, and I go into ministry, and I was still working as a businessman, and I was pretty healthy, I was, I was running. I'd run about three miles a day, and I was a pretty healthy guy. So I go in full-time ministry, and I started working six and seven days a week, and I gained 80 pounds. 80 pounds. I sacrificed my health ‘cause I felt like I had to take care of everything. I had to do everything, and I guess you would call that– that's sanctified dysfunction. It was dysfunctional, but I sanctified it because I'm, “I was doing ministry for God.” So…

Dr. Sandrew: The devil, the devil loves it, because you can even get into like, religious pride with it.

Dr. Ray: Hmm.

Dr. Sandrew: So, so there's a scripture in 1Timothy chapter, um, 1 Timothy chapter 5:8. It says, “If anyone does not provide for his own family, especially for his own household, he's denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” Now, here's what people don't understand. The provision is not ne– just necessarily monetary, it's also that quality time.

Dr. Ray: Yes. 

Dr. Sandrew: That's spending that time with the family. I do so much grief counseling, bereavement counseling. When people are on their deathbed, they're not asking for the boats or the house, they're asking, “Bring me so and so. Where is so and so? I–” it's the relationships…

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Dr. Sandrew: And it's…

Dr. Ray: I'm learning that more and more and more as I get older. It's relationships what matters. I think when I was younger, it was my house, it was my boat, it was my golf clubs, it was my fishing equipment. It was my clothes, it was my car, and these are– all these things I'm working to get, it was my money in my bank account, it was my investments, and then as you get older, you realize stuff doesn't really matter. It doesn't. What matters is your relationships. And you can sacrifice your relationships for Ministry, and that’s dysfunctional. 

Dr. Sandrew: And this– and this is why we, we need to renew our minds so much because it's…It's secular thinking that's crept into the church because the world says it's good to be busy. How many time– people you ask, among men, “How you doing? You staying busy? You being busy, right? You know, like it's a badge of honor. Like it's a badge of honor to be burnt out; but you're no use to God if you're running on fumes. God uses people as vessels and speaks through people, but if you can't even get out of bed and you're so worn out, how can you do…true ministry to people? And there's some people, Dr. Self, they're so talented they can preach the house down and leave their heart in the car, so to speak. They can– you know, they're so used to doing business as usual that they're completely…not even not even hearing from God. They're calloused.

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Dr. Sandrew: Because they're tired, because they're burnt out. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. And so, they're just, they're like a machine. It's just rolling and rolling and roll– rolling on autopilot. Um, you know, another thing maybe kind of related to this: I've noticed a tendency with some ministers is when I'm ministering to other people, my focus is on them. So what happens is, that can be like a drug because when a minister, his whole focus is on other people, guess what happens to him? He can completely avoid every issue in his life, every issue in his heart, he doesn't have to deal with himself at all because he spends all his time dealing with everybody else.

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah.

Dr. Ray: And it seems Godly, meanwhile, he's dysfunctional as he could possibly be. He's got unresolved issues, and pain, and anger, uh, dysfunction. He's got arrested development, all this stuff going on, because his whole life, his whole ministry time, he's focused on other people– and he avoids himself, and it's like a drug. It's literally like– it's like drinking alcohol. It's, it's a drug. You can completely avoid your own pain and issues by focusing on other people, and ministers have a amazing way of doing that. I'm not criticizing ministers, I'm just saying that's one pitfall to watch out for. 

Dr. Sandrew: And it's so– it's easier to go in on other people than it is to go in on yourself. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Sandrew: And what I mean is we do all this stuff in the name of ministry, and the devil is having a field day. It's, it's actually, I dare say, it's, it's like a scheme from the enemy, it's to get people to overwork. And what happens is, it's okay to take breaks, it's okay to have that sabbatical. And you'd be surprised how many preachers feel guilty for taking a sabbatical, or for…I kno,w like, people think that's not the case, but there's so many more preachers that don't than do.

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Sandrew: If you get what I'm saying. It's– you have to take that time to recharge because if you don't, you'll get calloused. Being around people, doing life with people, they're sensitive things that get brought up and you have to take that time to take a step back and replenish, to get in the secret place, to spend time with the Holy Spirit, have Him, have Him replenish you because you can't– let's put it this way: you can't get mad at people sucking the life out of you if you keep giving them the straw.

Dr. Ray: Haha.

Dr. Sandrew: That's what, that's what I mean by boundaries. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah

Dr. Sandrew: And boundaries, they're not even for other people, they're for you; because so many times, people…they're fine with um, you taking care of yourself as long as you take care of me first. And you have to set limits because takers don't put limits on how much they take from you. I'm not saying people are like, evil or malicious, but…ministry, it's, it's exhausting as you know, Dr. Self. It's– this is the job you can't clock out of - well, you can choose to not clock out of it. 

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Dr. Sandrew: It can be 24-7, 365. 

Dr. Ray: It can be, it can be. And it's exhausting, and it is exhausting. And then there's burnout. And what happens is, you mentioned earlier, a drowning man cannot save a drowning man. So I think there's, there's preachers out there that are running on fumes, inside they're drowning, and they're trying to save everybody else from drowning, and they drowning, where if they would take time and, and take time and rest and recuperate, take that sabbatical, then they would be more afloat. They'd be stronger, healthier, more vibrant, more alive, and they could– they could help people.

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

Dr. Ray: I mean, it's, it's a win-win situation. At one point in my life, Dr. Wright, I thought that if I took time to take care of myself, I was being selfish. And I had a Christian counselor - a lady counselor - get in my face, and she looked at me and she said, “Ray, self-care is not selfish. It's God's will for us.” And I, I, I was– I was not good at it for a long time. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah, self-care– it's the gas, it's the gas in the gas tank.

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Dr. Sandrew: You don't– I dare say, if you don't self-care, you can't be the– you're actually doing a disservice to the people. 

Dr. Ray: Absolutely. 

Dr. Sandrew: And while you replenish…that's where, that's why the Bible is big on plurality. You even look at Moses, this is from the Old Testament. He did not solve every dispute; he had people appointed. You, you have to have a team, you know. You have to have– you don't go as far as the dream, you go as far as the team, they say. 

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Dr. Sandrew: And a lot of times we try to be the one-man band. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Sandrew: We try– it's not the biblical blueprint. I see scripture after scripture where there's teams of people working together to advance the Kingdom.

Dr. Ray: Right. It's the body, right? It's the body of Christ, not a…not individual.

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

Dr. Ray: So sanctified dysfunction can be, look– can look really Godly. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: But it's not. It's a form of godliness, but it's not. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: You know, we talked about ministers doing this, and I think that it happens a lot in ministry because again, I always thought [coughs] excuse me, that in ministry, if I'm doing it for God, that's the most important thing, right? I’m– it's God's people, I'm serving God's people; but if I'm neglecting myself, my wife, my kids, my health, that's not Godly. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah.

Dr. Ray: That's not God's will. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah. And it's– and this– and I just want to give some hope to people. There's– it's, it's, it's, if this has convicted you and this is you, all you have to do is…just repent, slow down. You know, it's…God, God, God, He's gracious, He'll give you wisdom if you ask. Say, “Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, give me wisdom on– show me areas where I am kind of doing the most or I'm not staying in my lane,” per se, and He'll show you. Because we all– it's just– we live in a society where it is glamorized to be busy, it's glamorized to be at your wits' end, and you know, just– chewing off all your fingernails. But we're in this, you know–

Dr. Ray: That's, that's hardworking. “You're a hardworking man, you're a hardworking woman, what's wrong with that?” Haha. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. And that's that's where it goes to show where the Bible says His ways are not our ways. 

Dr. Ray: You know, I read something interesting. It's kind of related. I read something interesting which hit me really hard. It said that the inab– some people have an inability to rest. And I know there's been times in my life years ago, whenever I rested, I'd feel guilty. Like, somehow, I was failing when I rested. I think sometimes as ministers, we feel that, like, you know, “If I take a rest, I'm failing, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm neglecting my job, I'm, I'm failing God,” you know?

Dr. Sandrew: Mhm.

Dr. Ray: And then I heard that people - listen to this - that people with anxiety, when they ten– when they rest, they feel guilty like they have failed. 

Dr. Sandrew: Mhm.

Dr. Ray: And I think that, that maybe, that's, that's something that we need to look at. 

Dr. Sandrew: So…and I'm glad you mentioned that because whenever people have that fear of resting, I, I kind of frame it with this when I talk with um, counselees. Instead of– you have to use fear as fuel. Like, instead of, “I'm scared to rest,” “What happens if I don't rest? What happens if I keep this up?” If you even look in the Bible, even God Himself rested on the seventh day.

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Dr. Sandrew: When we don't rest, we're trying to do something even God hasn't done. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Sandrew: And it's– it's so, like I said, it's okay to be human. But we have to really– and we have a bad theology when it comes to humanity, it's…So many times you ask people– you know, when you're introduced, you know, who are you, what do you do? They say, “Oh, I'm this, I've written this books, I have these degrees,” or whatever. Very rarely do you– people– do you hear people say, “human,” you get what I'm saying? Like, it's– we have to be extra. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Sandrew: And God's saying that's not the case. 

Dr. Ray: Right, right. So good, it's so good. We can sanctify dysfunction and call it being Godly, we definitely can, and…Uh, you know, resting is, is not a bad thing. 

Dr. Sandrew: 

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah. 

Dr. Ray: It's a good thing. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah. 

Dr. Ray: It's a Godly thing. You know, the– I was– in Hebrews 4, it talks about uh, because their unbelief they failed to enter His rest. So, our belief in Jesus Christ causes us to enter to His rest. And so, before Christ came, we were under the law. There were 630 laws that, that, that had to be obeyed. If you disobeyed any of them, you're under a curse. There was no rest. There was no rest before Christ came. Christ comes, fulfills the law for us, and He gives us this thing called the believer's rest. Hebrews 4 talks about entering into His rest and it talks about even God rested on the seventh day. Now, there is a such thing as the believer's rest where we cease striving and we can actually rest in faith and trust God. I think our flesh still wants to strive and strive and strive, and we have trouble entering the believer’s rest. Does that make sense? 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes, you're hitting the nail on the head because I tell– I frame it this way: as believers, we shouldn't strive but stride, s t r i d e. Here's what's interesting: you're, you're, you just mentioned something interesting. The believer's rest, this salvation, could it be that many preachers, even though they mean well, it's actually their works as a way of trying to do works-based salvation. 

Dr. Ray: Mhm.

Dr. Sandrew: “I can just do X, Y, and Z, and lead all these people to the Lord.” They're thinking…they're, they're, trying to…but…add to the– we're trying to like, but He's, He died for our sins once and for all.

Dr. Ray: Trying to earn their brownie points... 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

Dr. Ray: …with God. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: Take a– earn your steps to heaven. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

Dr. Ray: And that's the denial of Christ. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

Dr. Ray: Now, we should have good works, but our good works are because of Christ. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: It's because of our salvation. Our good works don't cause us to be saved; our good works are because of our salvation. 

Dr. Sandrew: And, and like I said, if this is - whoever is listening, if it's convicted them, it's, that's good, it's the Holy Spirit tugging on your heart. Because it's a, it's a serious subject, because it is so easy to fall into this, and the devil, he loves it. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

Dr. Sandrew: He loves it when we run ourselves ragged. 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. Well, I hope the people listening will take it, that it's okay to rest. Matter of fact, God has called us to, to rest. There is a time that we need to rest and get rejuvenated, and it's, and, and– stop this feeling guilty if, if– because that's what I struggled– I felt guilty when I took a day off. I took, took guilty if I, if I slept an extra hour. You know, I took guilty if I wasn't answering every phone call, I wasn't answering every text, I wasn't answering every email, and taking every invitation to preach. But maybe, you know, I was wrong in that. And a lot of preachers - I want you to hear me - don't go down that road, it's not God's way.

Dr. Sandrew: It's how you heal. If you have a– think if you have an injury, the only way an injury - you break an arm or leg - the only way for it to heal is to rest. And we suffer injury ministering the people. Offenses come, stuff like that. It's– the Bible says what? That it's impossible that offenses should not come. It's going to happen eventually, and the only remedy for that is rest. So to not– 

Dr. Ray: And…

Dr. Sandrew: Yeah.

Dr. Ray: And guess what happens with God when we're resting? So many times, that's when He begins to speak to us. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: You know, when we're still, and we're quiet, and we're resting, that's when He begins to speak, that's when we get our revelation. We get our refreshing, our download, our anointing, our…I mean, so much stuff happens. It's, it's a good thing.

Dr. Sandrew: Yes, so, I mean, I dare to say to not rest is…to be disob– it's a sin to not rest, if you to get technical. 

Dr. Ray: Right. Yeah, you could be. Absolutely. Absolutely could be. You see, I, I'm going to say something kind of radical here. There lot of people that uh, are really big into the Sabbath day and it's got to be on Saturday, or whatever it is. I believe that the Sabbath day is a prophetic picture of Christ. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: That Jesus became our Sabbath. Through Christ, we enter into His rest, and there is a rest for believers; and that's what God was trying to show us with the picture of the Sabbath day. But that rest is not just– we rest from our works, but that rest is a, is a, it's a peace that passes all understanding, and we, we need a spiritual rest, we need a physical rest, we need an emotional rest, we need the believer's rest. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes, and they are all interconnected. I tell– I told someone the other day, I said you cannot be emotionally immature and spiritually mature at the same time, they are interconnected. And if we say we're so– saved, sanctified, filled with the Holy Spirit, but yet we don't want to rest it, it makes you really have to rethink some things. It's– if we– yeah, if we're struggling with this idea of rest or if, if there’s still pushed back against it, this is where we have to ask the Holy Spirit, “Lord, just help us– help me see this the way you see it,”

Dr. Ray: Amen. 

Dr. Sandrew: Because Ecclesiastes, it says, “A time and season for everything,” right? 

Dr. Ray: Right, right. 

Dr. Sandrew: I tell people you're either one of three areas, you're either on the front lines, training for the front lines, or recovering, resting, from something that happened on the front lines. You cannot be in the front lines all the time. 

Dr. Ray: I agree with that 100%. The Lord showed me years ago that there's a season where He'll put us on the front line; you're in the middle of battle. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: But then there's a season where He pulls you off the front line, just like all soldiers, and He puts you in a season of RNR. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: And, and that season. Well, why don't we, as we get ready to close, I want to say a couple of things. Uh, you mentioned earlier if somebody wants to contact you, uh, the easiest way to contact is Google because there's not– you're, you’re the only Sandrew Wright that comes up on Google. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. 

Dr. Ray: If you Google Dr. Sandrew, s a n d r e w w r i g h t, Write, all your information comes up. And of ‘course you're in the Central Florida area, Central West Coast Florida area. Um, you know, ‘course, we, we encourage people– Don't forget on our show, you can check out the, the show, uh, website that's icmcollege.org/selftalk and uh, you'll get– there's notes that go with this show and you know, don't forget to check all that out. Dr. Wright, any final comments? And I also want you to close us with prayer.

Dr. Sandrew: Yes. No, just it's– I recommend anybody, if you can, pursue Christian Counseling. There's…with secular counseling, it's only, only Band-Aids. It doesn't have to be with me, it's any– there's so many qualified Christian counselors out there, 

Dr. Ray: Right. 

Dr. Sandrew: And there's so many times we’re dealing with stuff that can't be addressed in the regular Sunday sermon that– there's things in the trenches, there's things that you don't see that are affecting you behind the scenes. And the only way to bring them out is…there's safety in a multitude of wise counselors, the Bible says, and it says that for a reason. So, no stigma. You know, find somebody– I say sometimes you need Jesus with skin on Him. No, that's a running joke we say. No, but yes, I would love to pray us out, so Heavenly Father, we just thank you. We thank you for your grace and your mercy. We thank you for the ability to use this platform to give glory to you. To equip and edify the saints, to build them up. Help us know that we're allowed to rest. Lord, we just come against any guilt, shame, condemnation, we thank you that you took that to the cross over 2,000 years ago. Lord, we just pray that we would, we would rest in your finished work; and that we would realize we don't have to do it all. We don't have to save the day because there's already been a savior, and that's your Son, Jesus Christ. Lord, help us– teach us to number our days, teach us to use wisdom in who we help– it's not that we don't help people or anything, God, it's that we just use wisdom, that we don't try to spread ourselves too thin. And Lord, I just pray for those who are weary, who feel like they have to do it all. I call in divine appointments, Godly relationships, people who can help lighten the load for those who are weary. And Lord, we just thank you that your yoke is easy and your burden is light that you give us that ultimate rest. We thank you for your finished work. We love you give you the praise, the honor, and the glory in Jesus’ name, amen. 

Dr. Ray: Amen, amen. Well thank you, Dr. Wright. This has Dr.-- been talking to Dr. Sandrew Wright. And uh, Google him, you got to Google him, haha. He's a got a– he's a five-star guy on Google, so…Thanks again, Dr. Wright I appreciate you very– appreciate your friendship, I appreciate all you do, and also being an example because you're a family man and uh, you…you're living what you talk, okay? Give Jenna a hug for us too. 

Dr. Sandrew: I will. 

Dr. Ray: All right, God bless you. 

Dr. Sandrew: Yes.

[Music]

Dr. Ray: I hope and I pray this show has been a blessing to you. Isn't Dr. Sandrew an interesting person? Remember, if you want to find out more about him or maybe contact him, he suggests just Google his name, uh, I think he's the only Dr. Sandrew Wright that comes up on Google, so enter Dr. Sandrew Wright - he's a Christian counselor. Great counselor, terrific friend of mine,, and a graduate of the International College of Ministry, we're very proud of him. Don't forget to go to our main website, which is icmcollege.org. You know, you can get some free courses there, there's some free downloads, there's a lot of cool stuff. We got a couple of great things coming up, what we call Hot Topic nights, uh, about uh, circular word curses - that's coming up next Tuesday, and that will be on the…um…November 26th. And then on December the 17th, I'm having a fireside chat which is a night of prophecy. Log in for that you'll be prayed for and prophesied to. Again, be sure and um, like and subscribe. The podcast website - it's very important that you go to that, which is um, icmcollege.org/selftalk. Every episode we have will appear there. You can subscribe to our email list, you can also write a review. When you write a review, that shows up. That shows up in the search engines, and it helps this show reach more people. Also, just tell people about it and share this show with your friends. Again, thank you so much for being a part of this, and I, I do this for you and I pray that uh, this show has always been a blessing to you. That's, that's what I want. That's my heart. Love you so much, thank you much and um, and if you, if you get this before Christmas, Merry Christmas. God bless you.