Judge Julee

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Dr. Ray: Hey, everyone, welcome to Self Talk. Uh, I'm your host, me, Dr. Ray Self. I won't do any more self-puns today. I promise I'll be more self-aware of that. So, today I'm excited. We have a very special guest. Before I get into that, uh, our show, as you know, is sponsor– our sponsor– the reason I'm able to do this show is because of the International College of Ministry. Uh, it's a Holy Spirit-filled seminary I was very blessed to found over 25 years ago. And we're enrolling now at icmcol.org. If you feel God's called you to the ministry, you know the call of God on your life; it's time to get equipped. We are accredited, Holy Spirit-filled, offering degrees in theology, ministry, counseling, uh, associates through the doctoral program. So check it out, icmcollege.org. Enough of that, but I'm excited about my guest today. I have today Judge Julee Flood. I didn't say Judge Judy. It's tempting to say Judge Judy. I didn't do that. Judge Julee Flood. And uh, she is a judge of the North Carolina Court of Appeals. Uh, which is, to me is an amazing accomplishment. She is a, a lifelong friend of my wife. They went to elementary school, uh, middle school or junior high school, whatever they called it back then, high school together. And she's also told me, I never, I never forget this. She told me that she'd listened to the over 200 episodes of Self Talk. I went, "Oh, my goodness gracious." Um, so she may be my most loyal listener, which I'm very honored by that. So anyway, judge, thank you for being with us. We appreciate you being here. 

 

Judge Julee: You're welcome. I'm, I'm honored to be here. Happy to talk with you today.

 

Dr. Ray: Well…and you, and were thinking, you know, why would we have a judge on a, on a podcast that talks about all these spiritual things? I'm going, well, there's a really good reason for this. And, you know, we, we asked the question, matter of fact, you asked a question which I thought was interesting. It's why should listeners to a podcast or to this podcast be interested or want to learn more about the, the judiciary? Okay. Um, you know, why, why, why should I care about the, the judiciary? You want to answer that question? Why would we care about that?

 

Judge Julee: Well, I'll give you just a little bit of my kind of layman's thought of that. But as a um, Judeo-Christian nation, we have laws that are very rooted in that history. And I believe part of that history stems from the covenant concept between God and the Israelites. And that consent to be governed. And a lot of our laws, the language of our laws, uh, kind of stemmed from, from the Ten Commandments, on, kind of stemmed from some of that background. So it's a very deep question, but just um, as a uh, Christian person of Christian faith myself, I can see a lot of that background in history coming forth in the way that we are governed, um, and the checks and balances that we have within our system. So the judiciary is certainly part of those three crucial branches of government. 

 

Dr. Ray: And it's interesting, uh, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, our Constitution, even before that, the Magna Carta, um, all has a Judeo-Christian, uh, influence to us. Uh, and also the concept of covenant is all part of, of our law. And I think as a, as a Christian, when you mention the word covenant, we go, yeah, I, I understand covenant. But in a way, you, you said that um, our concept of covenant between God and humanity, uh, it ties into the idea of, of government by consent. I thought that was very interesting. 

 

Judge Julee: Right. Well, that, that's my view of it, and that's certainly my, my understanding of it. So, I, I take um, the protection of our law very seriously and the concept of justice and, and consenting to be governed in this manner. Um, I think it's a very important societal covenant that we have. 

 

Dr. Ray: So, there's a…It's interesting. I was thinking, well, who, who cares about a judge until you're called to be before one? Then you care a lot about a judge. But, but the whole, the whole concept of, of our judicial branch has a biblical foundation to it. And you know the foundation of, of, of God's law with His people, and then uh, our inability to fully obey the law, our need for help, our need for a savior. Even Jesus, um, you know, Jesus was falsely condemned and declared guilty of a crime He didn't commit. And uh, but justice says, you know, when God's justice, as a matter of fact, says if there's sin, the cost of that sin, God's law says the wages of sin is death. And so to satisfy the law, Jesus sacrificed His life to pay that debt. That Jesus was, you know, was, took on the guilt that belonged to us legally upon Himself. I, I, I don't want to keep going on, but I've always asked this question: If God, who is the judge of the universe, had a problem, His humanity, His people are guilty. And being a judge, uh, and I come before God, I'm guilty. And so God, being a moral, righteous judge, He has to put a sentence upon me. He has to declare me guilty and pass sentence upon me. And so the question was, well, how can God cancel out my sin and still be righteous? And the answer is Jesus voluntarily given His life in the place of mine. So it was a legal action. It was a judicial action, what Jesus did. Anyway, that's my, my, my little take on that. 

 

Judge Julee: I, I appreciate that input very much. And certainly in our system today, there's no certain, uh, no specific religion we govern with without favor or, um, to, to any particular religion. Uh, but I, I do think it's very important to understand at least the, the foundation of the concept of being governed.

 

Dr. Ray: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, like I've said, you know, I, I was legally guilty, you know, before in God's eyes, I was a criminal because of my sin nature, and Jesus satisfied that, which to me is that's a whole nother topic. That, that's the gospel. It's amazing.

 

Judge Julee: Amen.

 

Dr. Ray: So, I got a few– there's some good questions I want to ask you. First off, I'm so honored to have a, a judge on our show. Wow. Um, so what does it mean to be a judge on the court of appeals?

 

Judge Julee: Yeah, we have in North Carolina a three-tiered state court system. And what that means is there's basically the concept of a trial court, which many listeners might be familiar with because that's what you see usually on TV with the more exciting things and all the facts being presented and the judge ruling that they're overruled or, you know, some sort of excitement within the television shows. Many listeners will be familiar with the um, with the Supreme Court concept, uh, because that um is the terminology typically in most states for the top court. And then, some states, most states have a middle tier called the court of appeals, and that's the court that I am at. Both the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court, just like in the federal system, are courts of law. Meaning we are no longer taking more facts, but rather we have all the record of what has happened at the trial court level. And we get briefs, and we get the records, and we review sometimes hundreds, sometimes thousands of pages of information that come to us. And the person who is appealing, called the appellant, thinks that the trial court got something wrong, and they come to us and they say, "Hey, we think this is wrong and here's how things should have gone." And then the other side, the appellee is going to say, "No, the trial court got it right and here's why." Okay. And so our job is to research very deeply and try to figure out on a matter of law, whether the trial court was correct or whether the trial court got it wrong. And sometimes then, even what the court of appeals does in, in rarer circumstances sometimes then that is appealed to the state supreme court. So not all states have the three tiers. Some states just have the two tiers. But in North Carolina, that's what that means is I serve at the middle tier appellate court level. 

 

Dr. Ray: Okay. So, I wouldn't care about what you do unless I felt I was unfairly, uh, convicted or I've given…the trial was unjust, or my attorney said, "No, we need to appeal this verdict." 

 

Judge Julee: On a personal level, I think that's a fair statement. However, for example, in North Carolina, the, the Court of Appeals last year, um, we processed, I think it was around 12 or 1300 cases. Some years it's gone up as high as around 2,000, and only a very small 10% or less of, of those um, cases go on to the Supreme Court. So that means that the court of appeals is deciding much of the law that is not um, only important to the parties involved in a particular case, but sometimes that law is answering bigger questions. Um, is this statute correct? Is it constitutional? Is it– so the questions of law are typically bigger and can affect more than just the parties who are in court. 

 

Dr. Ray: Oh, wow. That's a different light on it. So you're actually examining the law itself more than just, more than just a particular verdict. 

 

Judge Julee: Yes, we are a court that examines the facts under the law to decide if that law was applied correctly.

 

Dr. Ray: Do you, do you determine if a, a law is unjust, or is that a fair statement?

 

Judge Julee: Well, unjust is a little bit of an imprecise term, um, I guess in, in the law, because that can implicate fairness. But really, what we're determining is, um, the, the…we are interpreting a statute perhaps, and so we try to interpret by exactly what the legislature meant to have happen within that statute, or we're interpreting uh, just all, all sorts of different questions that we might be interpreting. Sometimes it's, you know, a specific situation with a specific family, and it may only have effect to that family, but sometimes the questions are broader and bigger as far as the further implications it… 

 

Dr. Ray: So it could have an impact not just on one individual or that individual's family, could have an impact on what city or state… 

 

Judge Julee: It's, it– we are a state court, so it would, um, it could have effect on the interpretation of our state law. 

 

Dr. Ray: Okay. Um, do you deal with the U.S. Constitution?

 

Judge Julee: Sometimes, constitutional issues from a federal level will be included with a constitutional question on a state level. Um, but that isn't um…it's not a, a real common situation that we deal with, but it is also not unheard of, um, but we again, we have to focus on the fact that we're a state court. So we're typically deciding state-level issues, which then can also implicate um, such as search and seizure and criminal law. It can implicate both federal search and seizure laws as well as our state search and seizure. um, wording and laws.

 

Dr. Ray: Okay. I think people would understand the search and seizure. Uh, question, and a lot of issues that can come up with that. So, I got, I got a big question here. I mean, to me, it's absolutely amazing, uh, your accomplishments and uh, I know a little bit of your background. I won't go into it too much, but your story itself is absolutely amazing. But in the bottom line, how do you become a judge? 

 

Judge Julee: Well, different states handle it differently, and I don't know where most of your listeners are. Um, it can occur in ways such as a commission recommends to a governor, and then the governor appoints. Um, it can simply be that the governor appoints. But in North Carolina, where I serve as a judge, it is an elected position, and many states do have elections. So, it is a statewide election. Um, I had to campaign. We do campaign with our party name– party affiliation on the ballot. That's relatively new in North Carolina, that party affiliation is included. And I campaigned for about two years across all 100 counties of North Carolina, thousands and thousands of miles driving to actually meet people. Uh, so there is an element of um, the political process involved. And then, um, there's an election, and uh, we have about 11 million people, I believe, in North Carolina and, so I would show up on the ballots all across the state. So sometimes I'll meet someone, they'll say, "Oh, I'm sorry I wasn't able to vote for you. I would have voted for you." I'm like, "Well, actually you, you did, or you were able to. It was on your, your ballot as well,” because even people within a particular state that has a statewide election, they might not realize that the Court of Appeals is statewide, just like the Supreme Court is statewide. And again, just to clarify, there are other states where it's even the Court of Appeals is done in like districts, but for us, it we cover um, the whole entire state of North Carolina.

 

Dr. Ray: Wow, that's amazing. I got to ask you a personal question. Did you enjoy campaigning, or was that difficult? Was that a challenge?

 

Judge Julee: Both. Um, I really enjoyed meeting people. I enjoyed seeing parts of my state that I've never seen before. I enjoyed being able to share with people the importance of the courts and my perspective, um, on, on the courts. I am more of a um, I don't know if I would say introverted person to kind of classify myself, but I, I don't really enjoy talking specifically about myself. And sometimes that's necessary in order to convince the um, the voter that um, one has the credentials and qualifications. Um, I'm much more interested in learning about other people and what their concerns are. So there were uncomfortable parts to it, and there were parts that I really, um, loved, but the entire time I was certainly honored to be doing that.

 

Dr. Ray: Wow. I, I just can't even imagine that having to uh, you know, get elected and having to campaign and, wow. Yeah, what– that had to be extremely interesting and extremely challenging, and I, I would agree with you. I get to meet a lot of people in my work, you know, speaking at churches and stuff, and um, you meet all kinds of people. Sometimes it's so, 

 

Judge Julee: Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray: It's so rewarding and so nice you just can't believe it, and other times it's like, whoa, thank you, Lord. Haha.

 

Judge Julee: Right. Right. Yes. Well, it was fun to see kind of a culmination of different aspects of my life sort of come together under this umbrella of, of fitting into being a judge and feeling capable and competent and ready to do so. And so, I'm thankful that the people of North Carolina decided that uh, they agreed with me. 

 

Dr. Ray: Well, I, I think a judge is a very high accomplishment. How did you…Okay, you were elected to be judge, but what went on before that? I mean, your, your, your story. How did you get to the place where people are voting for you to be judge? Your education and I, I know at one time you were, I know you were a mom, and you raised kids. I think you were a homeschool mom and uh, and, and, I know you– there's a lot of education involved, a lot of work involved. I mean, how, how did you come to that place?

 

Judge Julee: Yeah, I, it was not a direct path. Um, but you've mentioned some things. I mean, my, my first college degree was in animal science, and got a graduate degree in that and worked in that for a while. And then my husband and I started a family, and you're correct, I did become a homeschool mom. And during the time that I was homeschooling, one of my outlets, if you will, I still enjoyed taking classes. So, I did get subsequent degrees, and I just really, really enjoyed learning and studying. And at one point, when my children were getting a little bit older, I lived near a law school. It was something that had always interested me. I chose to go to law school, but we still homeschooled. So, I was in school by day, and at night I would order curriculum and grade papers, and set up this, the assignments for the next day. And my husband was working overnight, and by day would do the homeschooling, and we kept telling ourselves we can do anything for one more semester and one more semester. So, I did get the law degree. My first internship after my first year of law school was with the Supreme Court. Um, it was with the chief justice of the Supreme Court in Maine. I knew nothing about how to be valuable to that court at the time, but the fact that I got an internship there just exposed me to the work of the appellate courts. And then, subsequent to that, I have practiced law some, but most of my practice of law has been within different appellate courts. I've worked as an attorney for the courts of New Hampshire, um, Tennessee. Um, I worked, uh, as a student within the Federal First Circuit, which is another appellate court. And then in North Carolina, I've worked for four different judges or justices within the North Carolina court system. And during that time, just trying to make this a brief answer. Um, but during that time, over and over, people would say, “Would you think about running for judge?” And there's no official committee in North Carolina, but just people who were connected to kind of the process asking me. And I always said, “No, no, thank you. Thank you for asking. I don't see myself politicking across the state. I have my children. I have my family.” And finally, when it was brought up to me a few years back, I felt that, um, nudging. I believe for me that it, it was a, a spiritual, a nudging from God saying, "At least kind of consider this." My husband and I talked about it. We prayed about it. And I knew that I needed to be okay with whether I won or not, that I was at least doing the right thing to try and to pursue it. So, it was the right timing as far as um, my sons, my family, my uh, and so um, I, I went for that and did win the election, and now I'm elected for an eight-year term. 

 

Dr. Ray: Wow. Wow. That's incredible.

 

Judge Julee: That's about as short as I can make it. I'm not sure. 

 

Dr. Ra: Well, I know it's a long story, but it's an incredible story. And it was interesting. You knew that you were to go for this, to, to run for judge, whether you won or not. That was interesting. It was like you knew you were to do this. Even if you didn't win the election, you knew you were to try.

 

Judge Julee: Yes. And that, that was a process of getting there because I kind of sat on the fence for several months as I, as I thought about it, prayed about it, discussed it with my family. So, it didn't, it wasn't an easy decision, but once I made the decision, I did not have doubts. 

 

Dr. Ray: Wow. Wow. That's amazing. That's that's that's inspirational to me. That, that just touches me. That's really good. That's really good. So, so good. So, so in your work, um, so what's the typical uh, work product of the court of appeals? Maybe you answered this earlier. Um…the typically, in your job what, what's the typical goal of the court of appeals? So the typical goal is to resolve whether the trial court, as a matter of law, got the case below us, the case that

has now come to us, whether the trial court got it right or not. 

 

Dr. Ray: Okay. 

 

Judge Julee: Our typical work product is an opinion, a judicial opinion. And so sometimes, again, more on the federal level, there are cases that listeners may have heard of before, but there are certainly big cases. And a lot of times, when something very important at the federal government level, let's say the Supreme Court decided this or the Supreme Court decided that, well, those decisions are called opinions. And they are kind of um, typically lengthy, but hopefully not too lengthy answers to what the particular question or issue is in that case. And to get to that answer involves reading all of the materials that came to us from before. And sometimes we will have oral arguments, meaning an attorney for each side comes in and discusses with the Court of Appeals panel, um, how things should go. Um, sometimes we just do it, what's called um, briefs, and that means we just read it. We just read all the materials, and then we write our opinion based on what we've read and discussed.

 

Dr. Ray: Now do, do you make the final opinion or is it a, is it a group? You said, “We write the opinion.” So what are you writing the opinion? I know in the Supreme Court there's a panel of judges. Um, so how is that? Is it just you writing the opinion, or is it you and a team of other judges, or a group of other judges? 

 

So you're correct about the Supreme Court, and in the state of North Carolina, there are seven on the Supreme Court. Um, so federal level and state levels, the Supreme Courts sit what we call onbunk. That means all of them together. 

 

Dr. Ray: Right.

 

Judge Julee: The Court of Appeals, because we hear so many cases, we have 15 judges total on the Court of Appeals, and we sit, or we hear cases, we call it sitting as a panel in groups of three. 

 

Dr. Ray: Okay. 

 

Judge Julee: And on that panel of three, um, each judge, we, we alternate who's writing a specific opinion, but all three of us vote as to the same set of opinions. And what our statutes say in North Carolina is something along the lines, and I'm paraphrasing, but that each judge will sit with each other judge approximately the same time. So with every set of new cases, we get 12 cases every two weeks. And with every set, I'm in a different panel or a different mixture of three that is decided by kind of a some sort of mathematical algorithm that says this time I'm sitting with, you know, judges A and O, and next time I'm sitting with judges B and Q or whatever. So we alternate. We, we have different teams or different panels every two weeks. 

 

Dr. Ray: Okay. That's, that's interesting. That, that's, that's– So then there's an opinion that is written. Do you write the opinion? Does each judge write the opinion? Then you decide which opinion you're going to use? Or…

 

Judel Julee: We…it, it will be assigned to a particular judge, and if another judge on the panel agrees with you or if both of them agree with what you've written, then you have a majority opinion. 

 

Dr. Ray: Okay. 

 

Judge Julee: And if they don't, you might have two who are in agreement and one who desents, or you know, it…different– It's probably a little too deep to get in for for this podcast, but basically, I will have an opinion assigned to me, and I write that opinion, and my job is to do the writing such that the other judges then sign on or agree with my opinion. So, there's many opinions out there that are searchable with my name on there as to ones I've written. Others I'll be listed at the bottom as having agreed with another judge as to that opinion.

 

Dr. Ray: You know, and I think too, I think we as normal people here, you know, legal minds need to understand that you're impacting, this is having an impact on our lives. You know, it's not just legal jargon. This can impact me. You know, if I live in North Carolina, this, this, your decisions, these opinions, the court can have an impact on the citizens of North Carolina. And we, we, we should be concerned about what's going on in court. 

 

Judge Julee: Yes, I, I would agree with that. And to each listener in each different state, I think it's important that they understand the amount of law that's being created, um, or ruled upon by, by their appellate courts.

 

Dr. Ray: Yeah, I think it's important to, you know, um, you know, and Hosea says that “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.” And I think what you're saying challenges me that I need to be more aware of what's going on in the court system here. Of course, I'm in the state of Florida. Of course, you get the Supreme Court on the news, but the state Court of Appeals, we need to be more aware of this and especially if we're electing these people, these judges. Two more quick questions for you here. 

 

Judge Julee: Sure. 

 

Dr. Ray: I want to ask you, what's the most difficult part of your job, and what is the best part of your job?

 

Judge Julee: Hmm. The most difficult part of my job is that I see some of the most difficult things that society is facing. So, every two weeks, I get at least six criminal cases, and most of those cases deal with some sort of…a root of drugs or money issues. Um, just people going through very, very difficult times and then making really, really bad choices. I also have family law or child cases, which often deal with abuse, neglect, dependency. And so just there's, there's sadness, there's sadness, there's um, broken human nature and um, to continue every two weeks here's some more to read and more to read and more to think about. Um, that can be very sad, very difficult, very challenging. Um, the, the best part of my job is that I do get to be challenged by those types of cases and other things that maybe are more common to people, you know, contesting wills or employment issues or business practices and things like that. But whatever the issue before me, and I deal with criminal and civil, all types of cases, I'm very honored by knowing that I am trying to do the very best for those citizens involved in that case to rule in a just and fair manner without any regard to anyone's background. Um, and just trying to do my very best to uh, rule in a very just and fair manner that is consistent under the law and that applies the law as it's written, not as I wish it were written, because that brings stability to our system of justice and I am honored to play a role in that for the citizens of North Carolina.

 

Dr. Ray: Wow. That's…wow. Thank you for sharing that. So yeah, you're involved in some very, very, very important stuff. We are having a huge influence, and you know, uh, this does affect the kingdom of God. You know, we're, we're called to be stewards of what God has given us. And so God is interested in the law. I mean, God was a lawgiver. 

 

Judge Julee: Amen. 

 

Dr. Ray: Jesus was a covenant maker. So the law is, is, is, hopefully is God given. So very, very interesting. I want to thank you for being with us today. Thank you so much. It's, again, an honor. I feel you're like our, the number one fan of Self Talk. 

 

Judge Julee: Well, it it's it's my pleasure. It's humbling to think that, um, your listeners would benefit from knowing more about this. Um, it's certainly my passion in my life, but I hope I've maybe sparked a bit of an interest, um, in listeners' minds a little bit.

 

Dr. Ray: Court of Appeals. We should be aware of the Court of Appeals in your state, whatever state you're, you, you're from. If you're listening to me, be aware. Be aware. Especially if these are your elected officials. Well, even if it's an appointed official, it's somebody you elected to appoint the, the appointed judges. 

 

Judge Julee: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And ultimately, the decision is in the people's hands as far as um, who's serving to make those decisions. 

 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. Very important. Very important stuff. Well, again, uh, thank you so much. I want to pray for you real quick if that would be okay. 

 

Judge Julee: Yes. Thank you. 

 

Dr. Ray: Father, I just thank you, Lord, for Judge Julee, your daughter, Father. Lord, I thank you, Father, in your word in James, it says, if we lack wisdom, you give it to us and give it to us freely. I thank you, Father, for, for godly wisdom, that Julee has godly wisdom. Father, I thank you, Lord. I ask you to bless her, her family, the work of her hands. And Father, we just um, we trust you, Father, with all you're doing with your daughter Julee, Father. And Lord, we, we thank you for her. We, we thank you for the anointing upon her life. Thank you for the mind you've given her, for the wisdom you've given her. And Father, we just ask you that you would continue to guide her with your thoughts and your ways, Father, as she does this very important work, Father, for our society, Father. Ultimately, Father, you get the glory for everything. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

 

Judge Julee: Amen. Thank you, Dr. Ray. 

 

Dr. Ray: Thank you so much for uh, for being with us today. This again is an honor and a privilege. I'm getting ready to close. Everybody, you've been listening to Self Talk. I'm Dr. Ray Self, and uh, this show again is brought to you by the International College of Ministry. Be sure and go to our website, by the way, icmcollege.org/selftalk. icmcollege.org/selftalk. That's the website for the podcast. You can listen to every show I've ever done. You can also subscribe, get on our email list, give us a review. That really helps a lot. Anyway, the main thing is thank you for being a part of the show. God bless all of you. Amen.

 

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