Interview with Dr. Joe Warner

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Dr. Ray: Hello, this is Dr. Ray Self. Welcome to my show, Self Talk with me, Dr. Ray Self. I will not do any self puns today. Will not punish you with that. Anyway, this show is sponsored, as you know, by the International College of Ministry, a Holy Spirit-filled seminary online at icmcollege.org. We are enrolling every day, all day long, 24 hours a day. Check it out. icmcollege.org. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share this uh, podcast with as many people as you can. Help us get the word out. I got a special guest today. I've got a very, very, very good friend of mine and also my former pastor. My guest today in my world-class studio is Dr. Joe Warner. Now, Dr. Joe Warner, he's a pastor. He's a teacher. He's on the apostolic team for the Network of Related Pastors. He's the founder of Freedom Fellowship Church in Orlando, Florida. He's pastored for over 30 years. He's doing apostolic network work, apostolic prophetic network-type work all over the United States and the world. Him and his wife Karen have been married for 45 years. They have three grown children and four grandchildren. You know, uh, people argue if there are any more apostles or prophets left in the world today, and let me tell you something, there are, and I'm sitting next to one. So, you're in for a treat.

 

Dr. Ray: So, the reason I wanted to get him on the show today, I mean, besides the fact he's just one of my best friends, he just finished an incredible book and just got published. It's called Kingdom Courage: A Prophetic View of the Church During the End Times. Now, this is not a theology, a boring theology book. This is a book you need to pay attention to. And in this book, he talks about two types of churches. He talks about the Esther church and the Vashti church. And I want him to explain the difference between an Esther church and a Vashti church. Also, Joe Warner is an expert in teaching and preaching, uh, types and shadows, symbols in the Bible, and the meaning of names. It's, it's fascinating. I've seen him do this and experienced this for years. Anyway, welcome, Joe. Appreciate you being here.

 

Dr. Joe: Thank you, Dr. Ray. It's a pleasure to be here. The new book is called Kingdom Courage, and I was sitting at a church in San Antonio, Texas, 15 years ago, and the Lord spoke to me and said I was sitting in an Esther church. Well, that began a long pilgrimage to understand what the Lord meant by an Esther church. So as I went through this whole process, I began, that there were two churches revealed in the book of Esther. And my book goes from Old Testament scriptures to New Testament parallels of the exact same passages. And so to really understand these passages, you have to understand who the people are. And so I like to study the names of the different people in the different passages to find out who they are. 

 

Dr. Ray: Well, before you go on, what I want to kind of let the people listening know is, this to me is very practical. It's not just uh, something that's interesting. It's also talking about the church today. 

 

Dr. Joe: Sure. 

 

Dr. Ray: And the church that we are all experiencing today. 

 

Dr. Joe: Right.

 

Dr. Ray: So uh, so pay attention. This is going to affect you, and it's going to affect your church. 

 

Dr. Joe: So in the book of Esther, you have a great king who decided to throw a banquet, and he commanded his servants to go out and to compel people to come to the king's banquet. He wanted to display his royal glory and the riches of his kingdom to his servants. And so he kept sending these servants out, and they went out, invited people to the king's banquet. When you go to the New Testament, Jesus said there was a, a, a man who wanted to give a, a wedding feast, and he gave a wedding feast, and he commanded his servants to go out and command them to come to the wedding feast, and they mistreated his servants. They killed some of his servants, and he became really very angry. And so you get a picture of God at the end of the age. We have this thing called the marriage supper of the lamb, which is the marriage feast that's going to be for the bride of Christ, for the church at the end of the age. And so, we are commanded to invite people to come to the king's great banquet in the Old Testament and the New Testament to see the glory of the great king. And so, as you go through the book of Esther, you find out there was a, a wife of the king. Her name was Vashti. And she refused the king's command to come into his presence. And her refusal cost her everything. Vashti threw her own banquet without the presence of the king. And today we have churches who live and have their services based upon what men want, not what the king wants. And she threw her own party without the king. And so we have to judge a church not based upon their buildings or how skillful they play instruments, but upon whether or not the presence of the king happens to be in that church. And so, because of Vashti's disobedience, she was banned from forever coming into the presence of the king.

 

Dr. Ray: So let me stop you right there. So, Vashti, I think you told me one time years ago, means wasted beauty, right?

 

Dr. Joe: Wasted beauty. 

 

Dr. Ray: And so she threw a party without the presence of the king. So are you saying today that there are churches having services without the presence of the king? 

 

Dr. Joe: Yes.

 

Dr. Ray: And I think we know what we're talking about. That's the anointing, right? 

 

Dr. Joe: It is. 

 

Dr. Ray: That's the Holy Spirit. 

 

Dr. Joe: And so in Esther chapter 1, the king commanded his servants to give people the royal wine, wine represents the Holy Spirit, according to the desire of each person. No one was to drink the royal wine under compulsion. And so too, Jesus says in the New Testament that He gives us the Holy Spirit. And how much more will He give us the Holy Spirit if we ask? And so we have many churches who plan their services around making people happy, not making the king happy. And you won't find the presence of God there. They stifle the Holy Spirit. They encourage people not to worship, not to lift their hands. They don't wait on the Lord. They don't know how to be still before the Lord. There's no moving of the Holy Spirit. There's no laying on of hands. There's no baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's a form of godliness, but it denies the very power of God. We would call those types of churches Vashti churches. 

 

Dr. Ray: And to me, a Vashti church is a man-made church. The Lord showed me something years ago that when it's man-made, the Lord said, "Man is a manufacturer." What do we manufacture? We ca– we only can create things that are dead. God is a creator. What does God create? He creates life. And so, a man-made church is naturally dead. 

 

Dr. Joe: Right. 

 

Dr. Ray: A God-invested church is full of life. 

 

Dr. Joe: Yes. And so, the traditions of men nullify the grace of God.

 

Dr. Ray: So, I don't know about you, but I'm hungry for that. Again, we were talking about that earlier today. I am hungry to see a move of God in the church. I want to be in the presence of God. I want to be under the anointing. I want to see the fire of God. And when I'm in church, I want to see people delivered, set free, healed, whatever it takes. And, and I want to see the presence of God. I mean, I'm hungry for that. 

 

Dr. Joe: Well, in the American church, there's a cancer that's been going on for the last 25 years where churches define and develop their services, quote unquote, for non-believers, and they're called seeker churches. In these churches, they're professionally run. The pastors use very little scripture, and they're more like motivational speakers. The worship is professional. The instrumentation, the video, drama, dance, all the arts are professionally done, but there is no presence. And their only concern is attracting people, not the presence of God. Now I appreciate the heart that wants to reach people. But if you reach all these people and they come into these service and there's no presence, and they don't feel the presence of God, they don't see the presence of God, they don't see the anointing of God, then is the salvation that they're preaching, which is a salvation without any repentance required, is it genuine? 

 

Dr. Ray: And you would call that a Vashti church? 

 

Dr. Joe: A Vashti church.

 

Dr. Ray: But, but an Esther church. Describe an Esther church. 

 

Dr. Joe: So, as you read the book of Esther, you discover that Esther was an orphan. And so Esther was adopted by her uncle. His name was Mordecai. So Esther's name literally means God's hidden star. Mordecai's name means the revealer of schemes. Mordecai is a picture of Christ. And Mordecai spent his life working to save the people of God in the natural during the times of that great king. And so Esther was adopted by Mordecai, just as we're adopted. Romans chapter 8, Galatians 4, we're adopted into the kingdom of God. And so Esther's, God's hidden star, is a picture of a church that spends their life preparing themselves to come into the presence of the king. So Esther spent several years before she was even allowed into the presence of the king. And so an Esther church is a church that lives to receive the invitation to come into the presence of the king. And an Esther church prepares itself to be in the king's presence. They don't show up for church without preparation. They have holiness in their life. They have repentance in their life. They show up because they're hungry. They want to see a move of God. They want to see the Holy Spirit being poured out. They want to drink of the royal wine. They want to see something supernatural. They want to see a move of God. And so Esther lived her life to come into the presence of the great king. 

 

Dr. Ray: And so she prepared herself. But scripture says, and I agree with that 100%, Jesus made a way. He says because of the blood of Christ, the sacrifice of Christ, we can come boldly to the throne of grace. So Jesus has prepared a way for us to come into the holy of holies, which is where Esther entered when she came into the presence of the king. So we have a legal right to come into the presence of the king into the holy of holies, but we're not really exercising that right or even preparing ourselves to, to move into that. 

 

Dr. Joe: There's a wonderful scripture in Isaiah 61 where it talks about that we are given garments of righteousness. And so in the New Testament, when Jesus was dealing with the uh, the banquet, Jesus said that there was a man that came into the banquet and he wasn't wearing wedding clothes. And because he didn't have on wedding clothes, he was cast into outer darkness. It's a picture of hell. Our wedding clothes are the garments of salvation that Isaiah talks about. It's the robes of righteousness that you find talked about in the New Testament. And so we put on the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. And so our righteousness comes from what Christ has done. Nothing that we could possibly do to make us good enough to come into the presence of the King. And so we put on our royal robes of righteousness, the gift of God, salvation through Christ, no other way. And we put on these robes of righteousness, and that's what allows us to have entrance to the king's banquet at the end of the age.

 

Dr. Ray: And that's what the church is called to do. 

 

Dr. Joe: Yes.

 

Dr. Ray: To come into the presence of the king, not to come into our own self-generated feel-good, let's all get together type thing. And I don't want to be overly critical of the church because, you know, Christ died for the church, but I would like to see reformation. We, we need an anointing back in the church. We need the presence of God back in the church. And uh, you know, we can we have a legal right to do this, but I think we get so, like you said, we're so focused on how can I please people? What can I do to get more people to come? What can I do to, to excite more people? And I get it, and there's some value to that, but what about the anointing? What about the presence of God? I mean… 

 

Dr. Joe: Well, 92% of the churches in the United States are 100 or less. And I believe that's by God's design. You cannot shepherd or pastor people you don't know. And these smaller churches, many of them cry out for the presence of God. They spend time in intercession. They spend quality time in worship. They're not interested in nickels and numbers and running some program to take as many people through the program as possible. They long for the presence of God. They're willing to tarry and wait for the presence of God. And in His presence, that's where joy is. That's where healing is. That's where the supernatural is. So, a church that calls itself a church that does not have anything supernatural taking place is not an Esther church. I would call that a Vashti church. 

 

Dr. Ray: And Vashti means wasted beauty. 

 

Dr. Joe: Wasted beauty.

 

Dr. Ray: So would you say in a way, they're wasting their time?

 

Dr. Joe: They're wasting their time. They look good on the outside. They look professional, but the pastors have become motivational speakers. They're not really preaching the gospel. Repentance is not preached, and the presence of God is not there. 

 

Dr. Ray: I know in, in, in my church in North Mississippi, what I did, the Lord I felt instructed me on this. I would, I would preach the word of God. I'd preach the gospel, but there was something else I did. You know, we had a program, right? But I, I always allowed room for the Holy Spirit. I gave Him room. So I might preach a sermon. I might have an altar call, but at some point almost every Sunday, I go, "Come, Holy Spirit. We welcome you. We welcome you into our service right now. And we would just, sometimes we'd get still, sometimes we'd praise, but we just make, we invited the Holy Spirit to come. We made an invitation. Come, Holy Spirit. And every week He would come, and things would begin to happen. And sometimes He would take over the service, but we gave Him room. We didn't crowd Him out with our program. And we invited Him, and we gave Him room and time.

 

Dr. Joe: Yes. I'll never forget one Saturday night when I was pastoring in uh Florida, I had a, a dream and in the dream, I saw our church service, and I saw the Lord looking at it, and He was yawning like He was bored. 

 

Dr. Ray: Yeah, I agree with that.

 

Dr. Joe: And I said, "Lord, what, what, why are you bored?" And uh, the Lord said, "Well, you know, it is my church, so I should be allowed as the head of the church, as the Lord of the church conduct it the way that I want." And I said, "Well, Lord, in my dream, what would you do different?" And I immediately saw the four corners of the auditorium. One corner had a sign up that said physical healing. Another corner had a sign up that said spiritual warfare. Another corner had a sign up that said uh, fresh filling of the Holy Spirit. And another corner had a sign up that said prophetic utterance. So on Sunday morning, I made four signs, put them up in the corners of the church. Worship began. And then I sent teams of people to each corner that I knew could do those types of ministries. And then I said to the church, "We're not preaching today. What we're going to do is lay hands on one another, pray for one another, encourage one another, build up one another, and we're going to let the body of Christ do the work of the ministry." And so that began to happen. People would not go home. People started getting healed. People started getting filled with the Spirit. People started getting delivered. People started getting prophetic encouragement. And this went on for hours. Church didn't get out until 4:00 that afternoon. People were calling their friends and family that needed physical healing, that needed deliverance. And they were coming, showing up hours after church had already started. And so, being the creative people that we are, Ray and I call that a four-corner service. And it's literally a service where we let go, allow the body of Christ to use the gifts that God gave them to do the work of the ministry. 

 

Dr. Ray: And, and I was there. And, and I want to tell you now, listen, if you're listening to this, I hope you are. This is, we're not trying to give you a formula. What Pastor Joe did was he had a word from God. He had; he was following the directions of the Holy Spirit. And that's the key thing. The Holy Spirit said He, “I'm bored. This is what I want you to do.” And instead of following our tradition, we do praise and worship for 25 minutes. We do a 30-minute sermon. Then we make our announcements. We take our offering. Instead of doing that, Pastor Joe obeyed what the Holy Spirit was saying. The anointing fell. People were healed. People were delivered. Prophetic words were given and confirmed. And all kinds of things happened. But the key was you obeyed God. You obeyed the leading of the Holy Spirit. In Romans 8, it said those who are led by the Spirit of the sons of God. And so what I'm saying is, and Joe just witnessed this, if you want to see a move of God in your church, you have to let the Holy Spirit lead you. And what does the Holy Spirit want to do? What does He want to do? 

 

Dr. Joe: Yes. So, 1 Corinthians 2, Paul made it really clear. He said, "My preaching is not in de–” “...in remarkable words of wisdom, persuasive words of wisdom, but a demonstration of the spirit and of power." And so in our services, we should see the demonstration of the spirit of God and of the power of God. We should see the manifest presence of the great king. 

 

Dr. Ray: And that's an Esther church. 

 

Dr. Joe: And that's an Esther church. 

 

Dr. Ray: I love that analogy. An Esther church came to, in the presence of the king, prepared herself, and came in the presence of a king. The Vashti church had, it was, looked beautiful, but refused to come in the presence of the king because she wanted to do her own thing.

 

Dr. Joe: Yes.

 

Dr. Ray: Have her own party and that's, that's… 

 

Dr. Joe: …cost her everything. 

 

Dr. Ray: …and that is symbolic of so many churches today. God bless them. 

 

Dr. Joe: It says that the conduct of, that Vashi's conduct was evaluated, and she was banned from ever coming into the presence of the king again. So taking for granted the presence of the king is grieving the Holy Spirit. And thinking that we as men can make something happen to build a church is foolishness. 

 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. It's, it's spirit and truth. You know, it's, it's, it's scary. You know, our natural tendency, and I, I've counseled this, and I've taught this for years. We as human beings like to be in control. We want to know what to expect. We want to know, we, we, we like our programs because it gives us a sense of control. We want to know what to expect, when to expect, how long we're going to do, and what we're going to do. When you release control and give it over to the Holy Spirit, you don't know what He's going to do, but it will always be exceedingly and abundantly more than you could ever think or ask for. The problem is so many people don't want to release that control. I mean, Esther had to release her plans and come into the presence of the king. Vashti did not want to submit to the king. She wanted to do her own thing. And doing her own thing gives us a sense of false security, false peace, because we have control. We know what to expect. A lot of traditional people say, "I love my traditions because I know exactly what I'm, what's going to happen." Well, you don't know what's going to happen with God, but it's always going to be greater than anything you could imagine. So, what I'm saying is we've got to let go and start trusting the Lord with our churches.

 

Dr. Joe: Most pastors that I know are too insecure to do that. 

 

Dr. Ray: Yeah. 

 

Dr. Joe: They're just too insecure, and they just feel like to be a legitimate pastor, they have to please people, do it the way people want it to be done. And so, they're really striving to please people. 

 

Dr. Ray: And everything has to be planned out.

 

Dr. Joe: Yes. 

 

Dr. Ray: Now, now, I…

 

Dr. Joe: Control, control, control, control. Romans 12 says to present yourself as a living sacrifice, acceptable God, which is your spiritual service of worship. So when you go into a worship service, your primary thing is to present yourself to God as a sacrifice. Sacrifices are not in charge. 

 

Dr. Ray: And again, it, it takes a little courage to, to literally lay yourself down. Lay yourself down. Okay, lay yourself down. Lay down your agenda and pick up God's agenda. I'm not saying we should not have a program. What I'm saying is you have a program, but you need to be open to the fact that the Holy Spirit may want to change your program. He may want to change your agenda. Do you have enough courage as a pastor or church leader to allow the Holy Spirit to change your agenda? And when you do that, the results are incredible.

 

Dr. Joe: During the highlight of our church, Ray and I worked together closely. And what we discovered was God kept adding to the church more and more Ephesians 4:11 people. We had more and more pastors, apostles, evangelists, and teachers. And on any given Sunday, God would move and do different things and use different ones. If you have one primary pastor and his gift is teaching, that's where he stays is he teaches, and he teaches, and he teaches. And so the people never really mature in evangelism. They don't mature in the prophetic. They don't mature in the other gifting because all they ever hear from is a teacher. To have a mature church, you have to raise up and release the full five-fold, 4, Ephesians 4:11 gifts of the Holy Spirit so that they hear and get anointing and teaching from evangelist, the prophetic, the obviously, the teachers, but the pastoral. You have to have all the gifts flowing to mature a church to bring it up into uh, what God really intends for a church to be. 

 

Dr. Ray: A Vashti, not a Vashti church but an Esther church. 

 

Dr. Joe: Esther church.

 

Dr. Ray: Come boldly into the presence of the Lord. You know, I've, over the years, what I've seen happen with churches, and this is my theory, I think it's backed up with a lot of evidence, is you'll see particular churches that have the same program Sunday after Sunday after Sunday for years and years and years. What I believe happened was maybe 50 years ago, maybe 80 years ago, you, they did this particular program that there was a, there was a move, there was a revival, there was something that happened. So they do the same program week after week after week after week after week because it worked, it worked 80 years ago. You know, the cloud moves. What does God want to do in your church this Sunday? 

 

Dr. Joe: Yes. 

 

Dr. Ray: What does He want to do this Sunday?

 

Dr. Joe: You know, Moses dealt with the burning bush. He only encountered a burning bush one time. And the way pastors think today, they would have Burning Bush Baptist Church, expecting that burning bush experience instead of something new in God. Because God is always moving. God is always working. God's always doing something new. If you just study God doing new things throughout the scripture, you'll find dozens and dozens of new things that God wants to do. New wine, new beginnings, let go of the past. “Behold, I want to do something new.” New covenant, New Testament,

 

Dr. Ray: Mhm.

 

Dr. Joe: New gifts, new oil, fresh oil. I mean, there's so many things that God wants to do. God does not enjoy our services full of stale bread. 

 

Dr. Ray: It's, I love that word new, it would be a good word study. You know, it's interesting. I used to have, some of my friends would come to me, "Oh, Dr. Ray, I just wish we could go back. You remember back in 1989 how the anointing would come into the church, and we would do this, this, and this. I wish we could go back into that." And I would go, "No, I don't want to go back." That, that's what God was doing then. I– What is God doing today? What does He want to do now? Now, He's not going to be unscriptural, but the church should be accompanied by signs and wonders. And the Holy Spirit, you don't ever really know what He's going to do. He's not going to be unscriptural, but it's, what does God have for you this Sunday? What does He have for the church for next Sunday? That's, that's to me is the question. 

 

Dr. Joe: And remember, the goal is for people to be able to come to the banquet of the king. And so at the end of the age in Revelation 19, where it talks about the marriage supper of the lamb, the scriptures, it says happy is the one who's been invited to the king's banquet. And so our goal is to bring people to the banquet of the king, but not to bring people to a banquet without the presence of the king. And so we are looking for the manifest presence of the king in our services. We're looking for fresh oil. We're looking for fresh bread. We're looking for the body to be released to do the work of the ministry. It is never God's intent to have a one-man show in local churches, and he does everything. That is unscriptural. It's not the way it's supposed to function. Ephesians 4 says that He gave the gifts for the equipping of the saints so that they might do the work of the ministry. If you're just sitting in a local church and you don't pray for people and you don't lay hands on people and you don't go to small groups and you don't do deliverance and you're not involved in prayer, you are not doing the work of the ministry. You're just a church member. 

 

You know, if, if you're a pastor and you're listening to this, I'm challenging you. You know, you have a responsibility. You have a responsibility to your church. You know, God has given you, uh, as the pastor over your church, responsibility for that service. Every pastor, I think, has responsibility to go to the Lord and determine what the Holy Spirit wants to do in his church for this Sunday or Sunday night or Saturday night, whenever you're meeting, what does the Lord want to do? Also, if you're just the leader of your home, what's the Lord want to do in your home? What does the Lord want to do in your job? Wherever. This principle applies to our entire life, but especially if you're a church leader. 

 

Dr. Joe: Amen.

 

Dr. Ray: So, I've been with Pastor Joe Warner, uh, my good friend. The book is called Kingdom Courage, a Prophetic View of the Church During the End Times. But it's an incredible story of Esther and Vashti…type…Joe is one of the premier uh, teachers of types and shadows, symbols, and also the meaning of names that I've ever heard. This book is, is not hard to read. It will change your life. Uh, it's, it just came out. It's, we’ll, if it's not on Amazon right now, it'll be on Amazon very, very shortly. It's by Certa Publishing. Look up Joe Warner, Kingdom Culture. Joe Warner, Kingdom Culture. Um, any, any final words, Pastor Joe?

 

Dr. Joe: No. I don't know where you are in your life, but the Lord's going to hold you responsible whether or not you participated with the royal wine that He offers free. The Holy Spirit is still available. He still wants to fill us. And I encourage you every opportunity you have to encounter the Holy Spirit that you embrace it. 

 

Dr. Ray: Would you close us with a prayer?

 

Dr. Joe: Lord, we pray for these people. God, we pray for a move of the Spirit in our nation, in our churches. Lord, I pray that you would bring a revelation into the churches that do not have the presence of the King. Lord, that repentance would come. Lord, I remember in the scripture, the story of the 10 virgins. 10 of them ran out of oil. And Lord, I don't want to be one of those people who the bridegroom comes and I am not ready, and I have not got the Holy Spirit. I don't have the oil, and I am not qualified to go with the bridegroom. Lord, I thank you for the invitation that you give us from the throne of heaven itself that the great king of the universe is going to give a royal banquet, and we got an invitation. Thank you for our invitations. 

 

Dr. Ray: Amen. Amen. Well, folks, thank you again for listening to uh, to Self Talk. I believe this is episode 231. Thank you very, very much. Please share this with a friend. Download, subscribe. The, the website for the show is icmcollege.org/selftalk. icmcollege.org/selftalk. That's where you can get on our email list. You can subscribe. You can also give us a review. Whenever there's a review, it goes onto Google, and it goes into the search engines, and it really helps the show get more listeners. That's, that's all we want. Anyway, thank you for being a part of the show today. This is Dr. Ray Self. I've been with uh, Dr. Pastor Joe Warner, and God bless you, and let's have uh, let's have a whole lot of Esther churches out there. Amen.

 

Dr. Joe: Amen. 

 

Dr. Ray: Amen.

 

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