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AI generated art, titles, & show notes. Increasingly, even some of the core content we consume could be generated by artificial intelligence. Can true crime that uses technology like ChatGPT with its myriad implications for the genre be accurate, ethical, and interesting at the same time? That's part of our discussion about the technology taking over podcasting after everything we learned @ PodConf over the weekend! Episodes 95 & 96 cover Cal Coburn Brown and the heart-wrenching story of the murder of Holly Washa, be sure to listen to these episodes first! We researched this dark, tragic case for our chat w/Bob Ruff @ True Crime Binge.
This week we shared a promo for Twisted & Uncorked!
🌱🖤 NIGHTSHADE BOTANICALS 🖤🌱
We're celebrating our Podiversary @ UFO Fest in Downtown McMinnville. There's a whole weekend of festivities @ McMenamin's Grand Lodge as well! Also, the $1 tier of our Patreon remains open for a limited time. There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Apple Podcasts or the Buzzsprout Subscription Feature, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts. It helps get us seen by more creepy people just like you! Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! If you have any true crime, paranormal, or witchy stories you'd like to share with us & possibly have them read (out loud) on an episode, email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com or use this link.
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[Theme Music plays under speaker's voice that envokes a true crime, paranormal, & witchy vibe] Though I'd argue that as much as we've all been hearing about this particular type of AI, Chat GPT, it's certainly artificial, but still a ways off from the level of intelligence that I would trust to help us produce the level of content everyone claims it already is, or will be capable of creating just around the corner. Hi, Cassie.
Cassie:Hi, Caitlyn.
Caitlyn:Hi, creepy people.
Cassie:Hellooo.
Caitlyn:Oh, that was weird. Did we do something out of order?
Cassie:I don't know why you always end up saying it instead of me. But you know, I stole it from you this time. So, deal with it.
Caitlyn:Okay, I like it. Well, we did receive a comment about the "hellooo."
Cassie:We did, yes.
Caitlyn:Apparently there are people out there, whether they're listening on maybe a bus or sitting at their desk at work, and their worst fear is doing it right along with us and being caught red handed? I don't know.
Cassie:Red tongued? How to spot a creepy person in public. Yeah, yeah.
Together:Hellooo!
Caitlyn:And you'll see in the tarot video here at the end, I'm wearing a t-shirt inspired by another thing that came up in our Patreon messages.
Cassie:Ooh, don't give it away!
Caitlyn:Well, little Easter egg.
Cassie:Yeah, for the Patreon only.
Caitlyn:I feel like there's a lot of egg content and discussion and memes.
Cassie:It's spring!
Caitlyn:It's all over the place. It's like Eastery, but then also, we've got the "egg-flation" situation.
Cassie:There's an "egg-flation?"
Caitlyn:I did see a meme, because the price of eggs has like just been astronomical of late. It was around Valentine's Day, and it was a meme that says, you know, "don't buy her flowers." And it showed what was supposed to look like a fancily wrapped carton of eggs. "Get her eggs."
Cassie:Get her eggs.
Caitlyn:Get her eggs, yeah.
Cassie:I mean that that's really offensive than that I just talked about my egg situation where that goes through my egg off the counter.
Caitlyn:I know.
Cassie:But I actually said that I ended up eating the egg. Anyway, so it really doesn't matter.
Caitlyn:I really don't know about that. And I really don't know about why what's going on with me today. But I've got a couple of different sources of "calm down juice." I've got my "calm the fuck down juice." It literally comes in a jar. This says "calm," because I've been super jittery, and I'm very anxious. And earlier, there was a requirement for an iron and I said to Cassie, I'm going to hurt myself if I try to use this thing. I'm shaking over here. I'm just like, being real weird.
Cassie:Can you even imagine?
Caitlyn:I think the reason for all of this anxious, nervous, neurotic energy is that I've been researching technology.
Cassie:Oooh. In the midst of Mercury Retrograde, you're researching technology?!
Caitlyn:Holy shit, that did not even occur to me.
Cassie:I feel like we just figured out your problem.
Caitlyn:I don't need a doctor, I've been diagnosed. And this bitch is not well. Bitch, I am not well! Anywho, so I think that's I think that's what we're working with here. So-
Cassie:So just get ready everyone for the weirdness, it's coming.
Caitlyn:It is coming. [Magic wand chimes] As indie podcasters we love to show our support of other awesome shows. So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week.
Cassie:Let's show them some love! You can find their info in our show notes.
Twisted & Uncorked:Hello, twisted humans. Do you find yourself wanting to know more about the latest murder conspiracy cult or haunting? Then this is the podcast for you. In 1952 there was a record high of UFOs reported, 1500 sightings. There has been evidence of human sacrifice, devil worship, and it is haunted by more spirits that can be counted. A family of two adults and two kids reportedly saw a giant flying thing with glowing red eyes. And meanwhile the family's nanny, that helped Veronica to care for her and Lucian's children, was found bludgeoned to death in the basement of their family home. I'm Alecia. And I'm Sierra. And this is Twisted and Uncorked!
Together:You guys were back!
Cassie:And don't worry, we did get more wine.
Caitlyn:Well, of course. [Magic wand chimes] Let me preface this episode by saying that you might hear some things in this episode that aren't true. I know!
Cassie:Whaaaaat? Are you gonna be lying to us?
Caitlyn:No, not exactly.
Cassie:I don't like to be lied to Caitlyn.
Caitlyn:I know. Well, I'm not lying. And it's really not ME doing it. And that's really more than I should have said on the topic. But that initial statement had the desired effect. So thank you. My little peanut gallery over there.
Cassie:You're welcome. That's what I'm here for.
Caitlyn:Excellent. Which, if you've listened to any of our previous episodes, or other content, probably seems counterintuitive. Yeah, we generally try to keep things fact based.
Cassie:Unless we're pulling a "tricksy-trick" on each other.
Together:It's April Fool's! [Kidding]
Caitlyn:I hope that our listeners know that while we're certainly not investigative journalists, which think I've said probably almost as much as like, um, so...
Cassie:Yep.
Caitlyn:And we don't have a team of fact checkers and researchers, we do take what we do very seriously.
Cassie:We have fact checkers and researchers, Molly and Charlie. Those are the dogs in case you guys don't know. Pod
Caitlyn:[Sings just like Selena Gomez] "Pod Dawgs." Dogs. So let me explain the aim. And I think in the end, this will all come together in a cohesive way that makes sense. Do you like how much confidence that depending on how I read that- like the inflection?
Cassie:You're like, "It? Should? Make? Sense? Again? She's? Ron? Burgundy?"
Caitlyn:Depending on how I read that, that could sound really confident or the exact opposite. Yeah.
Cassie:Yeah. Well let you guys decide.
Caitlyn:My intent is to really dig in and talk about a bunch of technology. Wow, that felt so gross. And how it's likely to impact us in a seemingly miniscule way, but also in a very real and impactful way. So again, with kind of the compare contrast, very opposite antithesis. Paradoxical.
Cassie:You're like saying a lot of really big words I'm hearing now and I don't have a dictionary on hand.
Caitlyn:I'm very sorry.
Cassie:I gotta say, you're kind of scaring me though.
Caitlyn:Yeah, you know, I feel like that's the right reaction.
Cassie:Like a "you should be scared" type of thing?
Caitlyn:I think that's kind of the takeaway with this one.
Cassie:It's the technology gonna start murdering us?! Is that why it's on Haunts & HOMICIDES?!
Caitlyn:Oh, boy. I mean, I can't say.
Cassie:I gotta do technology hauntings next.
Caitlyn:I like that, yeah. The first excerpt I'm going to read as part of this episode is relatively short. But you'll probably want to have listened to the Cal Coburn Brown case series. I know gross. Cassie is making gross faces. As in her reactionis "ew, gross."
Cassie:Yeah. Ew but not like EWE. Not EWE, EWE. But like, still ew. Yeah.
Caitlyn:Also, ew. But, no. If you haven't already listened to that case series, you'll
Cassie:Okay.
Caitlyn:It shall be lost on ye. probably want to go back and listen to that first. Because it might not make sense if you haven't. Like, none of this, like the whole thing will be for naught.
Cassie:So we'll pause right here and let you go back and listen, like real quick.
Caitlyn:Yeah, it's just a couple of hours.
Cassie:And then we'll be here when you get back and we'll just like pick it back up.
Caitlyn:Perfect. Okay, cool. 3, 2, 1... And even if you have listened to it, if it's not fresh enough in your memory, you may want to go back I cannot really stress that enough here.
Cassie:I don't want it fresh in my memory though.
Caitlyn:Yeah, I mean, really, no one does. Yeah. which actually reminds me that's episodes 95 and 96. And while we're on the subject a big thank you to Bob Ruff for having us on True Crime Binge to bullshit a bit back then.
Cassie:Oh, yeah.
Caitlyn:You know not to talk about the case because as we discussed, Bob was not particularly excited to talk about the case. Apparently I went a little too dark.
Cassie:Yeah, it's pretty dark.
Caitlyn:If you found us through that guest spot, hopefully you already made your way through those episodes. We only have one quick announcement that I can think of before we dig in. Cassie?
Cassie:Hmm?
Caitlyn:Should we tell them?
Cassie:Let's tell them!
Caitlyn:Okay. Come see us at UFO fest!
Cassie:Oh my god. UFO fest!
Caitlyn:Oh my god. [Pronounced like a word instead of an acronym] UFO, aah! UFO fest!
Cassie:We talked about this festival in like episode 9 or 10 when I covered UFOs. Yeah. We talked about it. I'm so excited we get to go.
Caitlyn:Yeah, it's coming up in May in downtown McMinnville.
Cassie:Big City. [Sarcasm]
Caitlyn:Yeah. We'll link to the event page in the show notes. So you have all of the deets
Cassie:It's gonna be fun. I have an outfit already picked out.
Caitlyn:Oh my god. She showed me all of this outfit and oh, boy. Oh. Oh boy.
Cassie:I cannot wait for those shoes.
Caitlyn:Those shoes are literally Extra Terrestrial.
Cassie:Yeah, they are.
Caitlyn:Wow. Now before I digress any further or were abducted by an intelligent and otherworldly entity.
Cassie:I wouldn't mind.
Caitlyn:Let's get into it. The title for this first excerpt is Cal Coburn Brown. Cal Coburn Brown was an American man who was executed in the state of Washington for the murder of holly Washa. In 1991. Brown had a history of violence towards women, and had been convicted of rape in California in 1977. In 1991, he met Holly Washa, a woman he had been corresponding with through a personal ad in a magazine. Brown invited Washa to his apartment, where he brutally raped and murdered her. Brown was arrested and convicted of the murder in 1993. He was sentenced to death and spend over 18 years on death row before his execution by lethal injection on September 10, of 2010. Brown's case received significant media attention. Particularly due to his long stay on death row, and the controversial use of lethal injection as a method of execution. So we're not going to unpack this line by line in this moment. But let me start by just saying there are what some people might consider pretty significant inaccuracies built into this relatively short excerpt.
Cassie:Oh, I was gonna say it sounded good to me.
Caitlyn:Yeah. That's kind of the point. In the next one is where you might see some more that jump out as sort of raging red flags.
Cassie:Okay, I don't know if I'm good at seeing those. But okay.
Caitlyn:That's a whole different topic. But again, if you don't know the case, or aren't familiar with the details, probably nothing would stand out. Our next excerpt title is, Tell Me A 10 Minute Story About Cal Coburn Brown. Cal Coburn Brown was a man who committed a heinous crime that shocked the community of Washington state and the nation as a whole. He was born on October 1st 1953, in San Francisco, California, and grew up in the Seattle area. Brown had a difficult childhood with a father who was an alcoholic and a mother who was emotionally distant. As a young man, Brown struggled with addiction and was in and out of prison for drug related offenses. However, in the mid 1990s, he seemed to turn his life around. He got a job as a truck driver, married his girlfriend, and bought a home in Berean, a suburb of Seattle. But on the night of May 24 1991, everything changed. Brown was driving home from a bar when he picked up a 21 year old woman named Holly Washa, who was walking along the road. He took her back to his house, where he brutally raped and murdered her. He then went to work as usual the next day, leaving her body in his bedroom. When Washa'a body was discovered the police quickly zeroed in on Brown as a suspect. He was arrested and during his trial, he claimed that the murder was a result of a blackout caused by mixing alcohol and prescription medication. However, the evidence against him was overwhelming, and he was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to death. Brown spent 17 years on death row, during which time he became a cause celebre for anti death penalty activists. His case was the subject of numerous appeals, and his execution was delayed multiple times. However, in September 2010, he finally exhausted all his appeals, and his execution date was set for September 10. In the days leading up to his execution, Brown's case received widespread media attention. There were protests outside the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla, where he was scheduled to be executed by lethal injection. Supporters of the death penalty argued that brown deserve to die for his heinous crime, while opponents argued that the death penalty was cruel and inhumane. On the day of his execution, brown ate his last meal, said goodbye to his family, and was led to the execution chamber. He was strapped to a gurney and a team of technicians inserted IVs into his arms. He was asked if he had any last words, to which he replied, "I take full responsibility for what happened, I'm sorry." The lethal injection was administered and Brown was pronounced dead at 12:56am on September 10th, 2010. His execution was the first in Washington State in nearly a decade, and it reignited the debate over the death penalty. In the years since Brown's execution, his case has continued to be a topic of discussion and debate. Some argue that his crime was so heinous that he deserved to die, while others maintain that the death penalty is never justified. Regardless of one's position on the death penalty, there can be no denying that Cal Coburn's story is a tragic one that has left a lasting impact on the community of Washington state and beyond. Now, this feels like a good time to tell you. If you hadn't guessed already, based on the title or other context clues that these two excerpts were created by artificial intelligence.
Cassie:Oh, snap!
Caitlyn:Interesting, though, I'd argue that as much as we've all been hearing about this particular type of AI, chat GPT it's certainly artificial. But still a ways off from the level of intelligence that I would trust to help us produce the level of content. Everyone claims it already is, or will be capable of creating just around the corner. Not to shit on it. I'm not looking to piss off our robot overlords.
Cassie:Yeah, watch out.
Caitlyn:Because their violent overtaking of mankind could be eminent and I don't have the kind of scrilla nor the desire to join one of Elon future shuttles to Mars. Not that even that would necessarily ensure anyone's safety for myriad reasons.
Cassie:Yeah, AI can go anywhere. You're not gonna hide.
Caitlyn:Yeah, AI in that scenario is one of- it's a small sampling of the things that would be terrifying about that scenario. But what I'm getting at here is that while I don't relish the thought of a day when true crime podcasters are replaced by all manner of machine learning and AI. I do feel that there's something to be said about the human ability to sift through information, you know, to discern a variety of themes and facts. And premises from a massive pile of information.
Cassie:Yeah! So much information.
Caitlyn:It's a lot of information. And again, I think maybe this would be a fun thing. Fun is debatable. I think it would be interesting to let people comb through those two excerpts and see how many different inconsistencies or inaccuracies can be sort of parsed out from them.
Cassie:Yeah, there was there was a couple that I noticed, and it's not fresh in my mind. But even I was like, "hmm."
Caitlyn:Well, and even just in comparing the two. Those prompts were very similar, right? We're really just talking about Cal Coburn Brown, and we got very different responses. Yeah. So kind of interesting backstory with how
Cassie:Yeah, we did. this episode came about. And it's sort of bits and pieces. And I'll try to remember to touch on as many of the different aspects of it as I can. Before we get too far into it. I want to thank a friend of ours, who actually kind of was the start of this idea. He was talking about ChatGPT and talking about how, "man you know, there's so much technology out there. And have you guys thought about different ways that you could use AI to kind of help you in producing content?" And I said, "Oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting idea." And he was actually in real time, showing me this.Going into ChatGPT. And kind of saying, 'Well, what's something you guys have talked about recently?" And he started reading through the excerpt that it put together and I said, "Okay, well, herein lies the problem. Not to be a nitpicker, but half of that information is actually incorrect. It's factually inaccurate." I mean, be a nitpicker.
Caitlyn:Yeah, I think this is one of those times. What I learned from Greg Brockman's TED Talk on this subject was incredibly interesting. I went full nerd.
Cassie:Good, as you should.
Caitlyn:Right! He demonstrated for a live audience, in real time (no pressure) some of the really mind blowing capabilities of artificial intelligence. And specifically, OpenAI and ChatGPT. But he also explained in more detail than I would be prepared to in this setting, or ever, in any setting, how some of the machine learning or artificial intelligence occurs. How that learning specifically occurs. What do we want these AI programs and tools to do when we ask it high level questions, or supply it with some type of request? How do we teach AI to use tools? Like Twitter, or really anything else under the sun.
Cassie:Like a hammer?
Caitlyn:[Laughing] No. He said that Alan Turing posited that we don't program those answers. We teach it. And by it, I mean, the AI. It slowly builds an understanding and an ability to perform a variety of tasks by earning knowledge and feedback through a series of experiences. Which, if that sounds familiar, it's essentially no different than really any of us would learn how to develop and master a new skill.
Cassie:Right? Okay.
Caitlyn:So that kind of brings us to one of the really inherent issues with this type of technology. And that is that the technology will only be as good as the teachers.
Cassie:That's a very good point. Yes, like, who are the teachers? That's terrifying.
Caitlyn:But there's a really interesting question facing those that are kind of working on this challenge in the field. How do they provide AI with quality feedback to best (air quotes) "teach" without an enormous burden. One with an almost insert mountable degree of difficulty. Some would say an impractical problem, to say the least, considering that in many respects, this technology is already on the loose. And out there in the wild.
Cassie:Yeah, it is. Did you watch the South Park episode?
Caitlyn:We've been watching South Park a little bit recently.
Cassie:It's like the newest episode. Yeah.
Caitlyn:Oh, the No, I don't think we've seen it.
Cassie:It's so funny. It's about AI.
Caitlyn:I think I found a series of inquiries that shed some light on how all of this applies to someone like me, or really any creator, who simply wishes, you know, more times each and every single day than they can possibly count, that there were more hours available in each rotation of the Earth.
Cassie:Is that a problem for most people? I've never heard of that. That was sarcasm!
Caitlyn:Again, we're not here to shit on the technology. But the exercise here is really about understanding some of the things we're all hearing about in the news, how some of them might be writing the news that we're hearing or reading, that's talking about the technology that's writing the news.
Cassie:Oh, so it's like very "pro AI," because AI is writing it.
Caitlyn:Could be, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are news outlets that have used AI to produce certain content.
Cassie:Oh, that's terrifying, because where are they getting their facts?
Caitlyn:Mhm. Now we're kind of getting to the gist of sort of my, my concern, my complaint. But before we get to those prompts, I want to tell you about someone that reached out to us recently. You guys, everyone has been like, "heeey," or "hellooo!"
Cassie:"Hellooo," yeah!
Caitlyn:This person that I'm going to be sharing a little bit of our conversation was a relative of Holly Washa.
Cassie:Oh, my goodness.
Caitlyn:We are not going to share anything identifying about this person. When they reached out, it was at a particular crossroads in my creative process. Most recently, it happened to be part of the culmination of this project so far, which we'll get to sharing some more details about that, but it's still in progress. I'll share some of the themes of what this person shared with me. And I think maybe that will help us tie a nice little ribbon around what I'm trying to get to here. Alright, this first message says, "Hello-
Cassie:"Hellooo!"
Caitlyn:No, they didn't say "Hellooo."
Cassie:They were thinking it.
Caitlyn:They were thinking you probably. "I'm not a regular listener of your show, but I just finished episodes 95 and 96. One of the victims was my relative, Holly."
Cassie:Oh, Holly.
Caitlyn:I'm still getting chills reading this again. And I've read it so many times.
Cassie:Oh, my gosh.
Caitlyn:"I really just wanted to say thank you for the way you spoke. You both were empathetic and even pronounced our name correctly." Which is-
Cassie:Thank goodness.
Caitlyn:It is such a relief! "I remember driving from Nebraska to Washington with my family the first time he was supposed to be executed. It was the first time I'd heard most of the family talk openly about her. And there is still trauma to this day that came from what was taken from them. The stay of execution was last minute and my family was shaken." I am not crying, you're crying.
Cassie:Oh, I know. I'm kind of remembering talking about this part in the episode too. It was so hard.
Caitlyn:"Anyway, I hope you ladies have a good day. And thank you again for the respect you showed while sharing this." Okay, now for the extremely articulate response from-
Cassie:AI?
Caitlyn:No, thank God! No, this is my reply to Holly's relative.
Cassie:The much smarter than AI response.
Caitlyn:You know, debatable. "Oh my god. My heart skipped a beat. It's happened probably a dozen times but when I hear from families, I really hope that they feel like we've told the story well. Her story was one of the hardest to cover, particularly recently. So it means a lot to hear from you. I'm so sorry for what you all went through. And the stay must have felt like a second gut punch. I don't often clamor for execution. But that one didn't leave me with hard feelings whatsoever."
Cassie:Nope.
Caitlyn:"Day made before 6am. So again, thank you. I hope your family has found some semblance of peace." Their reply, "I understand, in principle, I don't like the death penalty. But I can't shed a tear for the monster. Thankfully, there is some Have a good day." And just circling back, because I did have to read that one a couple of times. Not that they were referring to that there were some monsters.
Cassie:Right, yeah.
Caitlyn:Because that would seem odd.
Cassie:There are a lot.
Caitlyn:Yeah. Final reply, "That's a great way to put it. I feel the same. Thanks again, and hope you have a good one, too." Now, if you thought that I was dangerously close to crying, just now. I will refer you to my previous statement about the fact that you are actually crying. I don't think that I have to really explain why this particular conversation had such a powerful impact on me. Do I?
Cassie:No, I don't think so.
Caitlyn:I hope that it's as clear to all of you listening as I might imagine, but as I went down this road exploring and researching for this episode, it's not the only thing that left a lasting impression on me. For that, I need to read a couple of excerpts from my ChatGPT thread.
Cassie:Ooh, more, more AI.
Caitlyn:Yeah. The first prompt is what happened to Holly Washa? "I'm sorry, but I am not aware of any public figure or notable person by the name of Holly Washa. Can you provide more context or information about who she is? Or what happened?" Robot voice.
Cassie:Okay, wasn't that your job AI?
Caitlyn:"With more information, I might be able to assist you better."
Cassie:Okay.
Caitlyn:Second prompt. Holly Washa. From Washington State. "I'm sorry, but I do not have any information on a public figure or notable person by the name of holly washer from Washington State."
Cassie:Okay, so still not getting anywhere.
Caitlyn:"It is possible that she is a private individual, or does not have a significant online presence. Without additional information, I am unable to provide any further insights." Alright, so third time's the charm. That's a well established principle, or is it? What happened in the abduction slash murder case of Holly Washa. "I'm sorry, but I do not have any information on an abduction slash murder case involving a person named Holly Washa. I also couldn't find any Oh, how very responsible of you AI? information on this case, through my database or online searches. It is possible that this case is not widely reported, or has not been made public. However, it is important to note that discussing or sharing information about an ongoing investigation, or a victim's personal details could be harmful and insensitive to the individuals involved. It is best to respect their privacy and wait for official updates from law enforcement agencies or authorized media outlets. Hmm. I have to say, I was notably surprised and I would say overall, pleasantly so by that last bit. Except for the fact that it's not ongoing. I mean, so not ongoing that we've already executed the man over a decade ago.
Cassie:And they seem to know about the person who murdered her but not her.
Caitlyn:Which is sort of one of those age old, true crime- sort of an evergreen topic.
Cassie:Yeah, it is.
Caitlyn:How, you know, in many cases, it's really- in a way can be very glamourizing of these...
Cassie:Monsters!
Caitlyn:Yes. Trash heaps full of hot liquid garbage juice. I cannot state this enough, it seems today. But I'm actively not trying to shit on chat GPT or any other type of technology in any way. But what I'm trying to get at is a conversation about how these things may change how we pave the way forward in so many distinct, different and challenging fields of study, and creation. There's at least one other aspect of technology that I want to broach as part of a case series for you all here. That's so far, of a completely indeterminate length, and or number. So, I really want to hear about the types of technology that you're all interested in. If there are Yeah. I'm very interested in the legal aspect of the AI. other hot topics that I haven't thought of yet, which is entirely likely, I want to explore the legal and practical implications of their introduction to various facets of society, the impact for creators, as well as those consuming any type of content that may be impacted? Does that make sense? Yeah, I think there are some really interesting legal implications to explore.
Cassie:Right, because we were talking about earlier, like, how do you copyright Artificial Intelligence? Like, can you-
Caitlyn:Yeah, or not even copywriting the intelligence itself, but more like the creation that's producing it?
Cassie:Or like citing it? Or like-
Caitlyn:Yeah, yeah. The technical and sort of these pragmatic aspects of-
Cassie:Ethical aspects of it.
Caitlyn:Right.
Cassie:Is it ethical to plagiarize Artificial Intelligence without citing it?
Caitlyn:Right? Um, yeah, I think you answered the question in the question where you say plagiarize. Yeah, not not to be a smartass, or anything. I'm really interested in hearing your feedback and ideas. So please email us, whatever you got, shoot any links to interesting topics and articles that you find so I can inspect further. Because when it comes to true crime, more and more these days, it's inextricably linked to technology.
Cassie:I have a suggestion right now.
Caitlyn:Okay.
Cassie:Fax machines. Go. [Laughter] I have played around with AI a little bit. And from my experience, I think the coolest things that come out of it are like the photos. So if you tell it to, you know, a photo of Jesus eating pizza, it'll like make that for you.
Caitlyn:I love that. Yeah.
Cassie:So I think that's pretty interesting. And then also, with the writing, I think it turns out better if it's not like you're trying to write something factual. Yes. If it's more conceptual, it does a really interesting job of writing. Like making a song...
Caitlyn:Oh, interesting. Feels like we're on the edge of an idea here.
Cassie:Did we have an idea?
Caitlyn:I think we did.
Cassie:So my idea, my genius idea was to have Patreon give us prompts, or just like little words or something, and then we make a prompt with it. And it tells- and AI writes the story and we read it. Yeah, I think that would be really fun. Really fun Patreon bonus type of thing.
Caitlyn:I think so too. It's like, choose your own adventure. But for spooky creepy stuff.
Cassie:We can even mix Patreon suggestions, you know take a little here and there make a completely new story.
Caitlyn:Then it's almost kind of like a Mad Libs too. Choose your own adventure Mad Libs.
Cassie:Yeah, that sounds fun. Yeah, we're doing it.
Caitlyn:I like it.
Cassie:Let's do it now
Caitlyn:Okay. [Laughter] Should we do some Tarot?
Cassie:Tarot? We do Tarot here?
Caitlyn:We do.
Cassie:We don't have chicken bakes this time.
Caitlyn:Oh, God dammit. [Charmingly witchy music fades in] Cassie.
Cassie:Caitlyn.
Caitlyn:Do you know what I really want?
Cassie:What?
Caitlyn:A thirsty bitch sticker!
Cassie:Me too, where do I get that?
Caitlyn:Nightshade Botanicals.
Cassie:Nightshade Botanicals? That sounds like they have plants?
Caitlyn:They do, yeah but this one easy I can't kill. But-
Cassie:For people that actually have a green thumb like me.
Caitlyn:Nightshade Botanicals is located at 6105 B Roosevelt Way NE in Seattle!
Cassie:Ooo, ooo right here in the PNW!
Caitlyn:The Emerald City, baybay!
Cassie:They have a reporting service, they have a house plant consultation and plant diagnosis service.
Caitlyn:I need to bundle!
Cassie:Get me off this website right now! [Charmingly witchy YOU specifically.
Caitlyn:If you're not currently in Seattle, which sorry about it, go to nightshadebotanicalsshop.com.
Cassie:They have a category called gothy plants and I am music fades out] obsessed.
Caitlyn:I need it! Why did you say chicken bake? Literally the only thing that matters in my life now.
Cassie:Okay, [Singing] shuffling! Thinking about AI, Technology, the future, robots.
Caitlyn:Alright. Do we have to?
Cassie:You did this.
Caitlyn:You're like "You picked this."
Cassie:That was you.
Caitlyn:Okay, so we're gonna think technology and ChatGPT, artificial intelligence.
Cassie:What did we get?
Caitlyn:Shut the fuck up.
Cassie:Does that have a robot on it?
Caitlyn:It's The Death card in reverse.
Cassie:Interesting!
Caitlyn:Wowzers!
Cassie:Can I get the little bitty book from the PNW deck? This is card number 13. I've been seeing it a lot because I was dealing with stickers earlier. Interesting that it came up to and I was like, "look at all these death stickers we have."
Caitlyn:Okay, "keywords are transformation, metamorphosis, an ending, sacrifice, loss, and rebirth."
Cassie:Mine has an extra one that says "upheaval."
Caitlyn:Wow. And the lights really just changed intensity with that turn of phrase.
Cassie:AI runs our lighting system.
Caitlyn:Oh, boy. "The Death card tends to frighten people when it comes up in a reading. But although it looks scary, it symbolizes a transformation at work. It rarely predicts physical death, although it may reference a death or loss that has led to a transformation for you."
Cassie:You said rarely, right? Okay, because it kind of sounded like you said it "really" predicts stuff. And I was like, that's the opposite of everything I've ever heard. It was like, Oh, I think she said rarely.
Caitlyn:Yeah, sorry. "Some decks picture a grim reaper skeleton with a scythe, grinning toothily and wearing a black hooded robe. The Rider Waite Smith deck shows a skeleton and black armor riding a white charger." That's a horse. "Suggesting the ongoing cycles of life and death. Other decks show desolate landscapes, severed body parts lying around, or other disturbing imagery. But you shouldn't take this literally. Remember, the Tarot is jam packed with symbols that can only be understood metaphorically." Okay, so there is an extra excerpt - there's two. "The number of death-" the deaths card number, oh "The Death cards number-" Exsqueeze me. "-13 has all sorts of symbolism attached to it. Some people link it with the 13 men at the Last Supper. 13 also corresponds to the number of lunar months in a cycle and the transformation from a lunar calendar and the decline of matriarchal societies."
Cassie:Interesting because we have like a little moon cycle thing going on here.
Caitlyn:And do you recall, I got something else when our charm casting arrived that I almost put out and I said "you know I gotta stop I'm making this alter a lot." And anyways, it was a moon phase candle.
Cassie:it was, moon phase candles. That's cool!
Caitlyn:Wow, okay "and transitioning transformation from the lunar calendar to a solar calendar and the ascension of patriarchical patriarchal societies." So, yaaay...
Cassie:Boo! Patriarchy runs the AI.
Caitlyn:Well, dude, Tech Bros, am I right? Okay, our second extra excerpt. Before we get into the reverse interpretation.
Cassie:There's so many "excerpths!"
Caitlyn:I know.
Cassie:I said that wrong.
Together:"Excerpths."
Cassie:It's like I've had wine or-
Caitlyn:Something like that. "The Goddess has led The Fool to his death. Because only through his spiritual death, can he be renewed and come to rebirth. She has asked him to sacrifice his image of himself to find his true self. The old self must be left behind or die before a spiritual rebirth can take place. The frightening coeliac or crone is really the wise old woman who guides him she is the keeper of the mysteries."
Cassie:Women, am I right? I'm cool with that.
Caitlyn:I know. Hysterical! Alright, reversed. "When this card appears reversed, it suggests you're putting off "In reading about money, you may be unwilling to making necessary changes, usually out of fear. You're let go of a bad investment or fear taking a chance on stuck in old habit patterns, you know, need to be revised, but something new. Perhaps irresponsible spending habits you don't want to put forth the effort to alter them. Even though you're unhappy with the current situation. The way out is to face up to your stagnation, frustration and unhappiness, throw out the old and ring in the new." Oh my gosh, I think I have to read all three interpretations to kind of see if we get anything else from this. are undermining you. Although you worry about your financial stability, you refuse to make changes. If the reading is about your job insecurity or fear may cause you to stay in a dead end position. Instead of cutting loose and moving on to something better. In some cases, this card may symbolize a job that involves deatht. Such as hospice, the funeral business, or estate planning. In a reading about love, you know, your Interesting. relationship needs work, but resist making the necessary adjustments. As a result, you experience boredom, lethargy, or sadness. Sometimes This card indicates you're stuck in grieving the end of a relationship unwilling to move on." How's that little book treatin' you over there?
Cassie:So, first before I read this, because it's short, so I'm just going to read it, so I haven't looked at it yet. But I'm getting the vibe - obviously change. The technology is going to be a big change. And I think they're reversed interpretation is like, what did it say? Like you're resisting change or something like that. So I feel like that's kind of Caitlyn resisting the change to the AI, no. [Giggle] But I think we- since we have to teach this thing, we need to really, it pay attention to what we're teaching it.
Caitlyn:It specifically says, "but you don't want to put forth the effort to alter those old habit patterns."
Cassie:Yeah. We don't want to teach the AI the patriarchy, all of the shit that our society is now all of the racist stuff. Like it's got to be new. It's got to be fresh. Non biased.
Caitlyn:Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's kind of where I was picking up on that too. Yeah. Because I feel like I'm I'm very much especially after this experience resistant to the idea that oh, I wouldn't at this point, feel comfortable saying Oh, Oh, I'm going to have AI, generate show notes or right. I mean, God forbid, you know the content of an episode. But I do think-
Cassie:It has potential.
Caitlyn:Yeah, it does. And I do think that this technology and all of the teaching that goes into it, that's where it's like it's change. And it's scary. And I think it's very reminiscent of the death card where it looks scary on the surface, and it very much could be, but-
Cassie:Depending on who's got their hands in the pot.
Caitlyn:It's a lot about how you interpret how you teach. I
Cassie:Okay, good. Okay, good. Sometimes I'm not very eloquent like that. Yeah, that makes sense for me. and what I'm trying to say.
Caitlyn:No, I think that I think that was perfect.
Cassie:Thanks.
Caitlyn:Perfect.
Cassie:Okay, so I'm going to read this thing and I have no idea what it says. "Death grows from death. Decaying leaves, animal matter, and micro organisms mix in the fertile loam." Is loam a word? L-O-A-M? The fertile like, soil type of thing?
Caitlyn:I'm not sure in this context. I have to look at that.
Cassie:Anyway, you guys get the gist. "Spores take hold and bond with oaken roots below. Bone white towers stretch upward. Nurtured by death, they now contain it. One bite is a death sentence." Like the poisonous mushrooms. "Delicate canopies spread, reaching outward as though seeking embrace. New spores scatter on the wind. Life also grows from death."
Caitlyn:You know, what's really interesting about this, as there's something that I sort of was picking up as a theme - technology and true crime and sort of the business of death, it's sort of- and I think I say it here at the end of the episode, that it's almost inextricably linked in a lot of ways in a modern society. And a lot of the imagery in that description is very reminiscent of some of the AI generated art for the principles of this episode, and that is freaking me the fuck out!
Cassie:Oooh!
Caitlyn:There are some very definite parallels. And I'm really interested to see what people think about kind of hearing that interpretation side by side with seeing the images that came from- Ooh!
Cassie:Ooh! I'm excited. That is also a western North American Destroying Angel. Is what that mushroom is called.
Caitlyn:Wow. Yeah. Also, maybe that should be Holly's nickname. She's literally a destroying mushroom. Like from her death sprouted this thing that then shot up through the ground and killed the guy responsible for her own death. Wow. Is that too
Cassie:I don't think so. It's like what that said to like, dark? death comes from death. Life comes from death.
Caitlyn:Yeah, it's those Yeah. Ongoing cycles of life and death and kind of how- oh boy!
Cassie:Also goes back to The Soul Therapist bonus. If you
Caitlyn:Oh, my goodness. guys haven't listened to that yet, it's really good. We talk a lot about death and the fear of death and all that.
Cassie:It's like a major theme running through our PNW Haunts & Homicides show? Death? What?
Caitlyn:Lots of deaths. Who would have thought with both Haunts AND Homicides? Who's to say but it seems like there's some sort of a, I don't know, common thread.
Cassie:Maybe.
Caitlyn:Weird.
Cassie:What do you guys think?
Together:Have a creepy ass day! See you next Tuesday!
Cassie:Be careful what mushrooms you eat. This might be a warning for somebody, be careful.
Caitlyn:Yeah, could be. So for all of you that are listening if you have any true crime or paranormal stories that you want us to share, maybe with the whole Pacific Northwest.
Cassie:Yes. We would love to read them on the pod!
Caitlyn:Yes, we will read them out loud.
Cassie:Not just in our heads.
Caitlyn:Yes. They don't have to be from the Pacific Northwest if you would like to share, email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com it's all spelled out no special characters. Super duper easy peasy.
Cassie:Follow us on Instagram and Facebook. Same thing as the email @pnwhauntsandhomicides all spelled out no special characters. Please also rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening to and check out our stories on social media because our meme game is hot.
Caitlyn:Agreed.
Cassie:And if you agree, like Caitlyn, you can also find us on Patreon and support the show.
Caitlyn:Bitchin! [Music that envokes a true crime, paranormal, & witchy vibe]
Cassie:That made sense.
Caitlyn:Did it make sense?
Cassie:Yeah!
Caitlyn:I'm fully convinced that a lot of times I don't make sense. Some of you are already aware of this one of my favorite pastimes, a real go-to if you will, is gaslighting myself. Because why should everybody else get to have all the fun?
Cassie:Exactly? Yeah. [Charmingly witchy music fades in] If you're a frequent PNW Haunts & Homicides listener, you probably already know where Birdie ambassadors.
Caitlyn:We wanted to take a quick moment to tell you a little bit more about this awesome product.
Cassie:Birdie is the modern personal safety alarm made for women by women.
Caitlyn:In a situation where you feel threatened or unsafe. You can simply activate Birdie's LOUD siren and flashing light to create a diversion.
Cassie:Birdie is perfect to carry any time because the device is lightweight and comes in a variety of colors.
Caitlyn:So important. Use our ambassador link and coupon code PNWHAUNTSANDHOMICIDES to receive 10% off your purchase. Like our social media handles the coupon code is all spelled out no special characters.
Cassie:You can find the link and promo code in our show notes or PNW Haunts & Homicides link tree.
Together:Have a safe ass day! [Charmingly witchy music fades out]
