The “It’s All About Me" Witness

Ma'am, I'd like to take you back to about a year ago, to May 14th of 24.

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Do you remember that?

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Garrett, he had an incident at...

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He's appendix-verse.

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his appendix burst and the school called Jonathan, correct?

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The school called Rebecca five times.

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They got no answer.

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We're not just actors.

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We've been cross-examined over 1,500 times in cross simulations to help train and coach

some of the world's top trial attorneys.

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Through live witness sparring, we'll test constructive cross techniques, share fresh

insights, and explore new strategies.

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And even though the testimony may be fake, the trial skills?

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Totally real.

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So let's experiment, discover what works, and have some fun in CrossLab.

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This show is brought to you by Trial House Consulting and powered by LawPods.

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Welcome to CrossLab.

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I'm Steve Homan.

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and I'm Olivia Espinosa.

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First things first, we're not lawyers and this isn't a show about legal theory or case

law.

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We are career actors and directors, and our focus is on storytelling, specifically how a

trial lawyer makes the jury and witness feel in what's known as a constructive cross.

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We like to call it the yes and cross.

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It's a strategy of using the opposing witness to help build your case narrative one fact

at a time.

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And if you have watched or listened to CrossLab before, you know that we designed a test

case that sparks ideas, word choice, and questions that you can use for your next

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deposition or trial.

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And Steve and I also usually simulate the cross-examination witness.

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But for this episode, we're doing things a little bit differently.

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Instead, the mock witness sparring against our guest attorney today is a seasoned actor,

someone who may be familiar to some of our audience.

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So let's introduce them both and jump into the show.

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We have Shane Henry.

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He has offices in Tulsa and Oklahoma City where he practices in the areas of personal

injury and family law.

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He has authored multiple published articles and presented CLE courses on numerous topics

related to trial advocacy and family law.

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He enjoys helping people through difficult times in their lives.

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Hi, Shane.

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Thank you so much for joining us.

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Thank you, it's an honor to be here.

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And we also have Jean Bruce Scott.

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She is a noted actor, producer, director, and dramaturg working in the theater,

television, and film.

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Her next project is the title role in Driving Miss Daisy at Idaho Repertory Theater.

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Welcome, Jean.

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Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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Well, Jean and Shane, it's really great to have you both here today.

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We want to start out with a little bit of a conversation.

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Yeah, before we get to our case of the day, we're gonna spend a little time talking about

what this podcast is based on, which is constructive cross or like Steve said before, a

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yes and cross.

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The main goal of this style of cross is to make the uh make facing the opposing witness

more conversational and less destructive by implementing the three rules that are its

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foundation.

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That first one being leading question only.

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So no open ended questions, kind of like a statement with an inflection at the end.

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One fact at a time, one fact per question.

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And then finally, the final three third rule of constructive cross is moving from a

general place of agreement to the specific

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goal of your cross.

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You have likely seen and heard the benefits of this style in these previous episodes of

Cross Lab.

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It's where you can make the opposing witness more cooperative, giving admissions that can

flip them into becoming a teaching tool for your case narrative.

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Additionally, it makes that information more easily absorbed by your fact-finders, your

judge, and your jury.

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Now, one of the reasons we're diving a little bit deeper into this style today is because

we're really fortunate to have Shane Henry with us, a litigator who's been using this

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approach for years and who also teaches and presents on these skills to other trial

lawyers.

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So Shane, we'd love to know because you are so familiar with constructive cross, what do

you see as the real power of this method?

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gaining admissions and ultimately as a trial lawyer, your goal is to have more success at

trial.

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And if you can be more persuasive, i.e.

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getting facts out that help your case, you can have better success at trial.

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so using this technique or this method, really, it opens up witnesses so that they can

provide information that you need to benefit your case.

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If you think about when you come at someone, if you're automatically attacking them, the

natural human reaction is to push back on that.

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But if somebody comes at you and they're kind and they just have facts that they're

bringing up and everything, you start to build a repertoire with that person and it's a

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lot easier to give that person facts.

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We know that works for sure because we call it the yes train when we're doing simulations.

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When we get into that agreeable state with one of the attorneys we're simulating with, we

have to have to remind ourselves, no, you got to fight back because it's so easy to get

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lulled into that conversational tone.

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And the way that the strategy is formulated, you're just going to get more admissions and

more agreement from

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from that witness.

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So Shane, you kind of touched on it a little bit actually that this particular method can

also translate what it seems to be outside of cross-examine and deposition into

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potentially the rest of trial.

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For sure, anytime interviewing the witness even, but anytime you're dealing with opposing

party, whether it be at motion hearings or depositions or anything else, using this method

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just sets that foundation so that you can lay the framework you need to in order to

achieve the goals of where you're headed.

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I use this example actually a lot because em I was in a children's entertainment group a

long time ago and our boss always used to ask us, hey, what do you guys want for lunch?

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And we'd always say hamburgers.

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And he said, that's great.

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I know a great Mexican spot around the corner.

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Let's go.

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And we'd go, OK.

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And it wasn't until years later that I realized, wait a second, we never ate hamburgers.

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Oh my god.

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But I was being, you know.

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He was constructive crossing me basically, A great, or, know, guess ending me.

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Like, yes, you have a good idea and let's do this instead.

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And it's the same thing that happens to us as witnesses.

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We don't realize, like Steve said, that we're kind of being moved into a direction that we

didn't realize uh would eventually box us in.

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I think Olivia, you touched on something earlier too.

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Today, our episodes focus on family law.

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So usually those are conducted bench trials.

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But as the judge is receiving and hearing the information, rather than hearing this big

fight between the attorney and the witness, the judge is able to process the information

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as it's coming in and everybody for the most part is in agreement.

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So it's...

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It makes the information a lot easier to receive for real-time learning, which is the goal

in the court.

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So, Gene, I do want to bring you into the conversation just a little bit, because I think

when we're talking about presenting factual information coming from a more conversational

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tone, and I'm thinking about the new work plays that you are working on, or actually even

thinking about, you know, approaching a scene that might have contentious uh moments in

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it, uh how you can get

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more out of that scene, you when you're, really focusing on not being at level 10 the

whole time, but looking for uh places where you can be more conversational and how that

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affects a performance or just storytelling in general.

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Well, it's two very different things actually, um in my opinion.

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In storytelling, um you're building the story, um dropping little breadcrumbs along the

way about what might come, what might happen, and then surprising them by not doing the

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thing that the audience expects.

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And so it's a little bit different.

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But yes, I can see how the yes and uh organizational

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skills would come into play for a playwright because as they're writing a lot of times

it's a conflict, drama is conflict and so they're always looking for that conflict not the

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yes and.

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So you can kind of flip that part on the head.

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And then story wise you always want to know the beginning, the middle, the end and where

you just come from.

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who you are walking into the scene.

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um It's such a combination of different things because often a playwright or screenwriter

doesn't give you all the information for your character.

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You have to build it as an actor.

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you're also writing it and coming up with, know, I can deliver this line and I am saying

it in a way that's, you know, uh isn't she special?

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you know, which may or may not mean that she's special.

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but she might think she's special and uh and if yeah it that could be that could be a fun

thing but you know what something that you said though gene is you're talking about like

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the bed bread crumbs and then something unexpected happens and i actually think we can

talk about constructive cross a lot like that too where you're and that's where that place

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where we come from

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getting general questions of agreement and then working our way towards the goal of the

cross examination, which is where all the contentious stuff goes.

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And that's where all the tough questions are.

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But hopefully by the time that the lawyer gets there, they will have uh got the witness to

agree to so much information that they're kind of stuck about where they want to go.

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And so you can get that like, ah, moment, that aha moment by just stringing

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factual little, you know, those breadcrumbs along the way.

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And then all of a sudden it creates this really vivid picture.

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any thoughts on kind of, you know, that general to specific uh way of painting a vivid

picture?

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It's really, if you think about a funnel, you're starting out wide and then you're working

down.

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And we'll see how today goes on the cross.

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But if things go as I have them planned, there are gonna be a couple aha moments.

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But again, we'll see how that plays out.

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I just want to make sure that Steve, that we define real quick, because we mentioned,

Jean, that you're a dramaturg.

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And it really is, for me, you are the eyes and the ears of the audience before the

audience ever sees the play, because you're bridging the gap between the writer's vision

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and what the audience needs to understand and connect to the story, the characters, the

relationship, the conflicts, everything that sort of goes into it.

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Anything else about the dramaturg that might, you know, that I'm missing?

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the big thing is um you're always questioning uh versus fixing or writing the playwrights

or the screenwriters text.

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you know, something comes up and you say, it's very much like a lawyer.

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so you've got Olivia coming in at midnight ah and she's got these two kids and she's left

them alone in the house.

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And the police have now come and where was she?

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You know, so, you know, of course the playwright at that moment is like, well, I don't

know yet.

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I haven't decided.

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And so you say, well, if anybody knows, it's gotta be you.

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So you gotta figure that out.

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And that's how you're gonna keep writing your script.

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You keep asking those questions.

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Yeah, I think it very much translates though in general to what we tell attorneys, is, you

know, especially in deposition or kind of just prepping in general, like staying curious,

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right?

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Yes.

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for those things that you might not have realized that were there and even in a cross,

right?

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Just if something jumps out at you that you didn't expect or didn't plan for, to stay

curious to kind of dig deeper because you might find something that is actually gold that

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you never even realized was there.

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I guess if I could jump in for a moment to build on something Gene was just talking about,

a trial is the same way, but during cross, that's our time to gather facts.

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So we're looking for admission and facts, but then when the witness is seated and no one

can argue with you, you get to do a closing argument.

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And that's when you start to explain, Hey, we heard these facts.

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Here's what was missing.

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Let me tell you what that means or why, or that's when you can tie it all together.

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Jean, what do you think is one of the hardest lessons for a writer and a storyteller to

learn?

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This is hard because I'm a producer as well as a dramaturg and so for me to ask a

playwright to consider their audience isn't exactly kosher for a dramaturg.

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So as a producer I do have to ask that question and say you know I've got this audience

coming in and you've got six swear words on every single page and you know we've

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build this just as a show show, an adult show.

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What do you want to do about that?

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And a lot of times it's hard.

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So I would say being able to listen and not be defensive when you get a question, because

it really, the question is coming from a very honest place of, I've got to build this

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theater and get your name out there and have people see this play.

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It's really good play, but I'm going to have people walking out of the audience before

page six.

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And they're going to go tell their friends, don't go see that.

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It's full of swear words or whatever the thing is.

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I'm not against swear words, believe me.

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A few Pepperdine script is fine.

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But I have had playwrights fight me on that issue, both as a dramaturg and later as a

producer.

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Shane, you know, just makes me think about that lawyers have to do the same exact thing.

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If you're not thinking about your jury or your judge or whoever is your fact finder in the

case, especially your judge, because you got to kind of get to know them.

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um If you're if you're trying cases in the same courtrooms over and over again.

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And if you're not trying to make sure that you're as accessible as possible to those

people, you know, I always like to think about it like if you if you have a jury.

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You want to be McDonald's, not the New Yorker.

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You want to use like the most accessible words that you can and not get too flourishly,

flourishy.

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Is that a word?

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I don't know.

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You don't want to get too fancy with your language or uh you want to try and like kind of

boil it down uh to the most accessible.

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But ah but I don't be a little bit different when you're when you're when you know your

judge and you kind of start to get to know what they like and how they like that

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information.

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Do you find that that's the case?

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Steve, you're exactly right.

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What you're doing, the job of a trial lawyer is kind of like what Gene's talking about,

because when clients come to you, their story, whatever the case is about, that has spread

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out over multiple years, right?

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And so you've got to take information and boil it down like you're talking about and

tailor it to...

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that judge, you've got to define what are my goals here and then what facts do I need to

show in order to achieve those goals.

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And it's really that process, like a filmmaker, cutting down hours and hours of film to

when it comes out in the theater, it's a two hour movie.

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you know, when I think about that, it's like the editing part of that too, because that's

there's the way that you sequence your facts, and even the way that you sequence your

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witnesses, and you build your case.

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I mean, that's, that's a skill in itself that is is hard to master and, but that's so key,

and making sure that you're eliciting the kind of response that that you want to have.

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You have to consider that ahead of time.

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How is this judge going to perceive this information?

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What conclusions is the judge going to draw from these facts?

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And so all that goes into planning things out.

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I wanted to move to sort of the other aspect of storytelling, which is presenting and

performing.

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Jean, when it comes to that, what do you think?

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there anything that...

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Here's the thing.

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Attorneys always ask us, not only do they want to build credibility, but they want to keep

people engaged, right?

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Not all eyes on them, sure, but they want to really have a deep connection with their

audience, with their judge and jury.

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What do you think?

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Is there a secret to getting people hooked and engaged if you are presenting?

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yes i'd i think it's sincerity i think it's bringing your self onto the job that you're

doing as a trial lawyer or even as an actor however that is but finding the truth sets

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when a lawyer's there to do and as a character that's you're looking for the truth in the

story what happened what how can i help how did i contribute or whatever those those kinds

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of things are

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I think actors that we really love, like Tom Hanks.

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He's got sincerity covered left, right and center.

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um Bryan Cranston.

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Bryan has a little twist on things, but he's sincere.

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He's genuine about the thing that he's doing, whatever it is.

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standing out in the desert in his underwear with pair of boots on, know, whatever it is

he's doing.

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um That's who he is.

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It's his, that's his character's self.

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So I think that's what, for myself, if I were a judge, I want Shane to walk in and be

Shane, right?

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I don't want him to put on some kind of character lawyer that he is, you know?

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He looks trustworthy, you know, he comes in and he's got a nice voice and I like listening

to him and you know the more that he plays on those things the more I want to listen to

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him and hear what he has to say.

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I'm so glad that you said that.

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think that uh we get this a lot too.

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A lot of people think actors are just liars and it's really the same thing that people

think trial lawyers are.

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so vice versa, know, we've had that people think that about us.

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And I think really as an actor, you have to be truthful and honest and find the truth in

every character that you play, even when they're a villain.

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Otherwise, my credibility is gone.

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You're gonna see right through me, right?

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And it's the same thing.

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with a trial attorney to find that truth and that honesty.

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There is no gimmicks.

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It's really just being who you are.

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And even those times where things didn't go as planned, some of the most sincere moments,

even as an actor, something goes wrong and you acknowledge it, that's a huge thing to

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establish credibility.

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And as an attorney too, I know everybody wants things to be perfect, but sometimes shit

goes wrong and just saying, I'm sorry.

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Let me ask that question a different way.

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you know, hold on one moment, let me reset.

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It's endearing, but it also kind of shows us that you're human and that it's something

that, you know, that you're trustworthy.

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weapon.

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You know, it's what you have and nobody else does.

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And it's really wonderful when you're able to be present in the moment and, you know,

bring those things to light.

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I heard this quote one time and it said, are inspired by perfection, but we connect with

vulnerability and as humans, you know, that when can someone be vulnerable and how do we

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receive that?

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I was just going to say that word vulnerability.

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It's something that me and Olivia talking to some of our clients, we've been, you know,

kind of bringing that up uh as a key that we see.

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Actually, it's a trait that we see in a lot of like those big money uh attorneys that are

getting those really, really big verdicts.

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And we've seen their openings, we've seen how they operate and they're doing a couple

things.

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The first thing they're

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infinitely curious.

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So it goes back to what we were saying before, but you can see that vulnerability in them.

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They're not afraid.

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It's not even to a moat, but just, you know, just show themselves.

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And that's not an easy thing to do when you know, for lawyers, and it sounds so like

counterintuitive to, you know, what you imagine a lawyer would want to be, you know,

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steely and, and, uh you know, that strong

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rock of a person in the courtroom.

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But really, if you can stay curious and and and find that those moments of vulnerability,

it just, you know, be really comfortable to be you.

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My God, that's that's that's the key.

250

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I never ever want to make anybody other than the best version of who they are.

251

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And I think that's really key.

252

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I want to get shade.

253

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Did you ever have like when you first started out as a baby lawyer and now you're, you

know, with with all the years of experience that you have?

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uh

255

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Was that a struggle for you to find that to find your authenticity in the courtroom?

256

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100%.

257

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I started, I had the good fortune to start out under this.

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He was an amazing trial lawyer and a great mentor.

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And I got to work with another one later on, but I spent years in my career trying to be

them.

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And finally an older lawyer pulled me aside and said, Hey, you're never going to be them

or what you're going to have to be the best Shane Henry you can be.

261

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And that was some of the best advice that I ever received, but it's hard because

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As humans, I'm very aware of my inadequacies, you know, and so you always want to try to

be something else or something you're not, and it doesn't work in the courtroom.

263

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I was reading recently a book about Abraham Lincoln and his last murder trial before he

came, became president.

264

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But they said something very interesting in there that that's on topic, but they were

saying people jurors loved Abraham Lincoln because.

265

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He wasn't all polished.

266

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He was disheveled.

267

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was, but he never talked down to people.

268

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He was always, you know, truthful.

269

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We hear the honest aid, but the way he connected with people.

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And it just reminded me of this vulnerability deal that we've been talking.

271

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I imagine it's got to be hard too, because there's so much that we all want to control,

and especially a trial lawyer is one of the things.

272

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We're doing some classes right now, and one attorney specifically says, I got to work on

my control issues.

273

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And understandably, because so much of the outcome of the trial basically is out of your

control.

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So wanting to control as much as you can within that scope.

275

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is obviously something that we would all want to do because you have to ultimately, it's

not up to you what happens.

276

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So I can't imagine the difficulty to be able to kind of be so vulnerable that you are

ultimately letting go of control of your case and your clients, the outcome of that.

277

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about hard.

278

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I've had my pants split open in the back during a trial.

279

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uh

280

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It was in front of a judge that didn't like me and I said, your honor, you can we take a

break?

281

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And the judge said, Mr.

282

00:25:25,302 --> 00:25:26,734

Henry, what do you need a break for?

283

00:25:26,734 --> 00:25:30,209

I said, judge, I've had a wardrobe malfunction.

284

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Oh my god

285

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uh I think you just created our next uh social media blurb for the episode.

286

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That is fantastic.

287

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I want to come back to Jude really quick.

288

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uh Before we move on.

289

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Do you have any takeaway that can help people connect and build trust with their audience

as a performer?

290

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In the theater, you feel it as soon as you walk on stage.

291

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And again, the best thing that I can do is to be as prepared as possible and to find the

truth and the character for myself and who I am.

292

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And then allow the time for the audience to come to me.

293

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If that makes sense.

294

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that you know if I walk into a stage and there's four other characters the audience is

already invested in those four other characters so do I do I you know come in you know all

295

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sparkly and ready to take on the day do I come in sad do I throw myself on the couch and

know bemoan my existence whatever the playwright is giving me to do commit to that fully

296

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and I think

297

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I can trust the audience to come to that story.

298

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I'm there in service of the story.

299

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um Some actors are there as stars and actors and the story is a little bit secondary.

300

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I think that the best actors are in service of the story.

301

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And so that's too.

302

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You are in service of your clients.

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story.

304

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Agreed.

305

00:27:20,903 --> 00:27:32,310

And the more invested you are in your client and that story, the more interested your

audience, your jury, is going to be.

306

00:27:32,834 --> 00:27:41,882

We talk about that a lot as far as not making it about yourself as far as you're like the

ah the ringmaster, right?

307

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If you're thinking about like a circus, the ringmaster is there to show you what the show

is.

308

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They're not doing all the fun stuff.

309

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And I think about that as in the in the in a courtroom, the lawyer is that ringmaster.

310

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But the the the excitement is the witnesses and the facts and how they come together.

311

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And if you make it about that,

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then you know, and are completely in service of that.

313

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I think that's so true.

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Like then it's it's not a matter of like, gaining credibility, you just will have it

because because your your focus is in the right place.

315

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Like you're you're you're you're doing what you're supposed to be doing that the audience

wants you to do, I think, or your your jury or your judge, right?

316

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Yeah, the other way we talk about that in terms of it's not about you and um is really

just leaving your opinion out of it.

317

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um And part of that is, uh you know, one fact at a time means no conclusions because a

conclusion is an attorney's opinion, right?

318

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And I need to insert my opinion and what I think as a fact finder.

319

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So that's how we also talk about that idea that it's not about you.

320

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Your job is to just lay the facts out there so that I can make the best decision possible.

321

00:28:54,488 --> 00:29:03,115

Shane, bet with judges, especially with doing bench trials almost exclusively, judges

probably don't want to hear opinions at all.

322

00:29:03,115 --> 00:29:08,670

They want to see some really good, hard facts, I'm sure.

323

00:29:08,696 --> 00:29:14,469

There's one person in a courtroom that it matters what they think and it's not a lawyer.

324

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It's the person wearing the black robe.

325

00:29:16,911 --> 00:29:28,097

And as lawyers, I think it's hard for us to accept that because we want to share our

opinions, our thoughts, but that's not how we persuade in a courtroom.

326

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It's all about the facts.

327

00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:30,891

Fantastic.

328

00:29:30,891 --> 00:29:39,068

Well, let's get into it a little bit because today's case is a family divorce case, a

family law divorce case, as we mentioned.

329

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And as Shane mentioned, this is his primary area of focus in his practice.

330

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So this is the case of Stills versus Stills.

331

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In this custody dispute between Rebecca Stills, CEO of a national jewelry brand, and

Jonathan Stills, a frequently traveling venture capitalist, the central issue is whether

332

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Rebecca should retain primary custody of their two children.

333

00:30:01,562 --> 00:30:13,356

Jonathan currently has weekend visitation and relies on his mother, Sandra Stills, a

retired school teacher, as the children's primary caregiver during his parenting time.

334

00:30:13,356 --> 00:30:24,609

In her direct testimony, Sandra claimed that Rebecca is too career-focused and often

delegates parenting responsibilities to a college-aged nanny.

335

00:30:24,609 --> 00:30:35,572

She argues that as a retired grandparent, she's better positioned to provide daily care

and structure, particularly for her grandson, Garrett, who has ADHD.

336

00:30:35,572 --> 00:30:41,614

Sandra also referenced a recent medical incident in which Garrett's appendix burst at

school

337

00:30:41,614 --> 00:30:45,375

Rob Rebecca was unreachable during a business meeting.

338

00:30:45,516 --> 00:30:56,482

Shane is representing Rebecca in this case and will be conducting a cross examination of

Sandra Stills played by Jean to challenge her credibility and the conclusions drawn from

339

00:30:56,482 --> 00:30:58,213

her direct testimony.

340

00:30:58,213 --> 00:31:08,599

But before we do that, uh dive into that cross examination to our simulated cross cross

examination, we want to take just a really quick little break.

341

00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:13,880

And we want to talk about really quickly our partners at Law Pods.

342

00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:25,769

Lawyers think that Law Pods are just the company that produces the TLU and Trial Lawyer

Nations podcasts, but actually they create a lot of podcasts with lawyers just like you to

343

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help reach non-lawyers, aka your potential clients.

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That's right, podcasts let your audience get to know and trust you.

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With over a hundred million people expected to listen to podcasts this year, there's never

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public.

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And to get more info, visit LawPods, L-A-W-P-O-D-S dot com.

349

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Tell them we sent you.

350

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We want to tell you about what we do at Trial House.

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We help attorneys in private sessions and in coaching to help you be a better advocate for

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We can help you in so many different ways from learning new trial skills or

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be great advocates for themselves in depositions or in cross-examinations and trial.

354

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The best way to reach out to us is to go to our website, trialhouse.com.

355

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That's H-A-U-S, trialhouse.com.

356

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And we've got two free resources for attorneys on there.

357

00:32:42,502 --> 00:32:54,722

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And you can schedule a 30 minute

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storytelling consultation with us.

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And no strings attached, no pressure.

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We just want to meet you.

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We want to talk with you and learn more about your practice and a case that's coming up.

363

00:33:08,987 --> 00:33:12,431

You might actually get some really good advice at the very, very least.

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ah Once again, trialhouse.com, H-A-U-S.

365

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We hope to talk to you soon.

366

00:33:18,542 --> 00:33:19,782

you

367

00:33:20,536 --> 00:33:21,969

Welcome back to CrossLab.

368

00:33:21,969 --> 00:33:27,177

uh We're about to start into our simulated cross-examination.

369

00:33:27,254 --> 00:33:37,090

Shane, in terms of a witness like this, not to give anything away too much really, but

what's your approach typically for a witness like this?

370

00:33:37,346 --> 00:33:52,292

Constructive cross, we wanna take the facts that they're willing to work with us on and

then ideally kind of lead them down a path that they're stuck and maybe get a few of those

371

00:33:52,292 --> 00:33:55,344

like Steve was talking about earlier, some of those aha questions.

372

00:33:55,344 --> 00:33:57,935

They're not conclusions, just facts.

373

00:33:58,555 --> 00:34:00,856

So we'll see how that works out today.

374

00:34:00,856 --> 00:34:05,058

What I do not wanna do is get in a fight with the mother-in-law.

375

00:34:05,698 --> 00:34:07,763

that it's not gonna help anybody.

376

00:34:08,237 --> 00:34:16,224

Okay, uh Shane, you're gonna have about 10 minutes to cross the witness, but you know, it

could get juicier than that, so we won't stop you exactly then.

377

00:34:16,224 --> 00:34:26,534

But in the interest of time, you can confirm any admissions potentially that you think

you've already covered with the witness before you get to your particular chapters that

378

00:34:26,534 --> 00:34:27,155

you have.

379

00:34:27,155 --> 00:34:30,227

Is there anything that you confirm ahead of time?

380

00:34:30,498 --> 00:34:31,880

I think we can roll.

381

00:34:31,968 --> 00:34:33,777

Okay, ooh, I can't wait to roll.

382

00:34:33,777 --> 00:34:37,171

Okay, Shane, the witness is yours whenever you're ready.

383

00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:41,078

Miss Stills, Jonathan is your son, correct?

384

00:34:41,164 --> 00:34:41,997

Yes.

385

00:34:42,862 --> 00:34:44,445

46 years old.

386

00:34:45,771 --> 00:34:48,897

He's currently going through a divorce from Rebecca.

387

00:34:50,223 --> 00:34:51,786

They have two children.

388

00:34:52,140 --> 00:34:54,165

Yes, Garrett and Brittany.

389

00:34:54,210 --> 00:34:55,548

your grandchildren.

390

00:34:55,788 --> 00:34:56,626

Yes!

391

00:34:57,025 --> 00:34:58,463

Garrett's nine.

392

00:34:59,052 --> 00:35:00,268

Here it's mine.

393

00:35:00,768 --> 00:35:02,229

and Britney's seven.

394

00:35:02,326 --> 00:35:04,063

Yes, second grade.

395

00:35:04,290 --> 00:35:06,213

Ma'am, I noticed your face light up.

396

00:35:06,213 --> 00:35:07,750

You love your family.

397

00:35:08,428 --> 00:35:09,804

I do love my family.

398

00:35:09,804 --> 00:35:11,359

You love Jonathan?

399

00:35:12,536 --> 00:35:14,516

Well, yes, of course.

400

00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:16,514

And of course you love Garrett.

401

00:35:16,514 --> 00:35:17,216

Garrett?

402

00:35:17,216 --> 00:35:17,998

Yes.

403

00:35:17,998 --> 00:35:18,939

Yes.

404

00:35:18,976 --> 00:35:23,262

and you love Brittany, they can count on you.

405

00:35:23,618 --> 00:35:43,275

They can count on me and they gave me so much joy and for me to be able to be there to

support them and to watch Garrett and Brittany grow up and succeed and for Jonathan to be

406

00:35:43,275 --> 00:35:50,101

so successful now as uh a young adult, it's really exciting.

407

00:35:50,101 --> 00:35:51,892

It's very exciting for a mom.

408

00:35:52,172 --> 00:35:53,813

Family comes first.

409

00:35:53,922 --> 00:35:55,654

For me, yes.

410

00:35:56,098 --> 00:35:59,005

They can count on you outside of the courtroom.

411

00:36:00,351 --> 00:36:03,038

They can count on you inside of the courtroom.

412

00:36:03,606 --> 00:36:04,550

Yes?

413

00:36:06,146 --> 00:36:10,739

Ma'am, Jonathan, you mentioned him being a successful adult.

414

00:36:10,739 --> 00:36:12,392

He's employed, isn't he?

415

00:36:13,101 --> 00:36:15,869

yes, yes, he's a venture capitan.

416

00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:18,583

adventuring capitalists, that's important work.

417

00:36:18,922 --> 00:36:21,673

It's very important work and he's good at

418

00:36:21,996 --> 00:36:24,255

He's good at it and it's not easy.

419

00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:26,186

No, it's not easy.

420

00:36:26,186 --> 00:36:31,574

not just anybody can do a be a venture capitalist, a successful venture capital.

421

00:36:31,649 --> 00:36:33,013

No, no.

422

00:36:34,314 --> 00:36:36,147

His work is demanding.

423

00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:38,475

It's very demanding.

424

00:36:39,212 --> 00:36:41,127

You're aware of his schedule.

425

00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:42,590

I am.

426

00:36:43,926 --> 00:36:45,963

Sometimes he works in town.

427

00:36:46,434 --> 00:36:47,574

yes, of course.

428

00:36:47,574 --> 00:36:49,587

And sometimes he works out of town.

429

00:36:49,622 --> 00:36:50,582

Yes.

430

00:36:51,712 --> 00:36:55,425

sometimes 20 or more days per month.

431

00:36:55,874 --> 00:37:00,196

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, I think.

432

00:37:00,196 --> 00:37:03,418

But yeah, he's on the road quite a bit.

433

00:37:03,438 --> 00:37:08,261

He does try to make his round trip in the same day.

434

00:37:08,261 --> 00:37:11,683

So flying out, doing his meetings, and flying back again.

435

00:37:11,683 --> 00:37:18,727

So he works very hard to be home and to be with the kids and with me and to make a family.

436

00:37:18,727 --> 00:37:24,780

And also because he's the way that he's so good at his job.

437

00:37:24,864 --> 00:37:38,178

is that he does take leisure time and he enjoys going for walks with the dog and going to

the park and doing karate with Garrett, which is so good for Garrett and his energy.

438

00:37:38,178 --> 00:37:40,641

Ma'am, he's so good at his job.

439

00:37:40,641 --> 00:37:43,354

Earlier, you testified on direct testimony.

440

00:37:43,354 --> 00:37:44,765

You remember that?

441

00:37:45,427 --> 00:37:47,188

And you were truthful then.

442

00:37:47,890 --> 00:37:55,178

And you would agree with me, 20 or more days a month, he's on the road on average.

443

00:37:58,670 --> 00:38:03,050

Well, I guess it could be 20 or more days.

444

00:38:03,050 --> 00:38:04,070

Yeah.

445

00:38:04,468 --> 00:38:07,987

Over 60 % of the time he's on the road.

446

00:38:08,590 --> 00:38:13,214

um When he's on the road, he FaceTimes with us.

447

00:38:13,214 --> 00:38:18,439

oh Every single night he reads to the kids over Zoom.

448

00:38:18,439 --> 00:38:21,963

We have a wonderful Zoom connection and that.

449

00:38:21,963 --> 00:38:27,807

So the kids see him the whole time or anytime he's not here.

450

00:38:28,269 --> 00:38:33,053

And then, as I said, he worked very hard to get back home.

451

00:38:33,053 --> 00:38:34,654

So, yeah.

452

00:38:34,774 --> 00:38:39,548

And sometimes he has to be gone even more than that, doesn't he?

453

00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,428

Not often, sometimes.

454

00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:44,513

Sometimes.

455

00:38:44,513 --> 00:38:47,498

Ma'am, your husband passed away.

456

00:38:47,618 --> 00:38:48,269

Yes you did.

457

00:38:48,269 --> 00:38:49,397

Five bars.

458

00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,895

five years ago and you have a home you live in.

459

00:38:54,132 --> 00:38:54,782

I do.

460

00:38:54,782 --> 00:39:00,266

uh We moved down uh before Garrett was born.

461

00:39:00,266 --> 00:39:02,267

We came down from Humboldt.

462

00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:07,661

And we were helpful with Rebecca.

463

00:39:07,661 --> 00:39:13,455

Rebecca is also uh a wonderful young uh entrepreneur.

464

00:39:13,635 --> 00:39:16,657

And she works very long hours.

465

00:39:16,657 --> 00:39:22,441

So it was really nice for my husband and I to be able to be with the kids.

466

00:39:22,441 --> 00:39:23,970

uh

467

00:39:23,970 --> 00:39:25,551

take care of them and babysit them.

468

00:39:25,551 --> 00:39:36,270

And when my husband died, Jonathan was kind enough to build a guest house in the back of

his property.

469

00:39:36,270 --> 00:39:43,948

He has a nice big lawn, big property, and that's where I've been living uh ever since.

470

00:39:43,948 --> 00:39:47,662

You live in that guest house that's behind Jonathan's house, correct?

471

00:39:47,662 --> 00:39:51,802

Yeah, so that's I have my own home in my own space.

472

00:39:52,222 --> 00:40:03,262

So when I'm watching the children and spending time with them, I have a bedroom in the

house on the same floor as the children.

473

00:40:03,262 --> 00:40:06,022

So I'm there 24 seven.

474

00:40:07,534 --> 00:40:14,760

So when Jonathan, when the kids are in his custody, you stay in the main house, correct?

475

00:40:15,692 --> 00:40:19,245

I stay in the main house only if I'm needed.

476

00:40:19,245 --> 00:40:24,430

If Jonathan is on a trip, well then obviously I'm the one that's there.

477

00:40:24,430 --> 00:40:30,775

But when Jonathan's there, I don't necessarily stay in that guest bedroom.

478

00:40:30,815 --> 00:40:43,526

If one of the kids is sick, I do so that I can help in the night if they're coughing or

need a vaporizer or whatever, I want to be there to be able to take care of them.

479

00:40:43,950 --> 00:40:54,438

I try to be a good granny and be there as needed and uh I try to get out of the way so

that they can have their own time together.

480

00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,227

Jonathan cares for him when he can.

481

00:40:58,127 --> 00:41:01,150

Jonathan cares for them a lot.

482

00:41:01,251 --> 00:41:07,419

So Jonathan, when he's in town, gets up first thing, he's the one who makes the breakfast.

483

00:41:07,419 --> 00:41:12,727

If I want pancakes, I gotta go into his house and make sure that I get some of those

pancakes.

484

00:41:12,727 --> 00:41:14,427

Yeah, he's there.

485

00:41:15,432 --> 00:41:18,284

And when he's not there, you're there.

486

00:41:18,284 --> 00:41:20,456

And when he's not there, I'm there.

487

00:41:21,045 --> 00:41:23,538

And that's not something you dislike.

488

00:41:24,526 --> 00:41:37,412

Uh, no, I loved raising my children and, um, I, I didn't anticipate helping to raise my

grandchildren.

489

00:41:37,412 --> 00:41:40,374

um I wish.

490

00:41:40,374 --> 00:41:42,932

like it correct

491

00:41:43,372 --> 00:41:44,514

I do like it.

492

00:41:44,514 --> 00:41:45,975

I, yeah.

493

00:41:45,975 --> 00:41:47,176

do it more.

494

00:41:48,110 --> 00:41:51,174

I would do it more, absolutely.

495

00:41:51,174 --> 00:41:53,576

I would be happy to do it more.

496

00:41:55,286 --> 00:41:59,232

According to your direct testimony, you want to do it more, correct?

497

00:41:59,232 --> 00:42:01,738

Yes, I would like to do it more.

498

00:42:02,059 --> 00:42:08,574

And currently when Rebecca has the children, you don't watch them, correct?

499

00:42:10,047 --> 00:42:18,021

not now, not in last five months, but when they were separating and before that, yes, I

watched them a lot.

500

00:42:18,094 --> 00:42:20,797

You want Jonathan to have more time, correct?

501

00:42:21,455 --> 00:42:27,520

I want Jonathan to have more time with the children and I want the children to be looked

after.

502

00:42:27,574 --> 00:42:40,844

I don't feel as though Rebecca and or the college babysitter that they have, she has, take

good enough care of the kids.

503

00:42:40,886 --> 00:42:45,110

And ma'am, when Rebecca has the kids, we already covered, you're not present, are you?

504

00:42:45,110 --> 00:42:45,753

No.

505

00:42:45,753 --> 00:42:47,518

No, I answered that.

506

00:42:52,354 --> 00:42:53,155

Yeah.

507

00:42:54,054 --> 00:42:54,974

HD?

508

00:42:54,974 --> 00:42:55,846

Uh-huh.

509

00:42:56,714 --> 00:43:00,240

And Garrett and Brittany, they're both in school.

510

00:43:01,043 --> 00:43:03,447

They're in the same school together.

511

00:43:04,130 --> 00:43:07,396

And it's important that they be in the same school together.

512

00:43:07,396 --> 00:43:08,628

Wouldn't you agree?

513

00:43:09,186 --> 00:43:11,890

Why would they have to be in different schools?

514

00:43:12,332 --> 00:43:15,777

I'm sorry, I can't agree or disagree.

515

00:43:15,878 --> 00:43:18,472

I think it's great that they're both in the same school.

516

00:43:19,488 --> 00:43:24,744

And ma'am, you are well informed about their school, correct?

517

00:43:24,942 --> 00:43:28,802

Yes, yeah, I was a school teacher for 32 years at St.

518

00:43:31,048 --> 00:43:34,146

as part of being well informed about the school.

519

00:43:34,146 --> 00:43:41,132

mean, actually on direct, you expressed an opinion about a different school, didn't you?

520

00:43:42,048 --> 00:43:48,526

Yes, yes, there's a Catholic school that's less than five minutes from Jonathan's.

521

00:43:48,718 --> 00:43:59,391

from Jonathan's house, ma'am, in coming to express that opinion, you, you looked into

their current school.

522

00:43:59,492 --> 00:44:00,773

Can we agree?

523

00:44:01,695 --> 00:44:04,578

And so, you know, that school is rated.

524

00:44:06,242 --> 00:44:07,062

Yes.

525

00:44:07,062 --> 00:44:08,981

You know it's top rated.

526

00:44:09,740 --> 00:44:10,562

Yes.

527

00:44:10,562 --> 00:44:12,863

and you know they have a special program.

528

00:44:14,111 --> 00:44:14,839

I do.

529

00:44:14,839 --> 00:44:16,490

know they have a special program.

530

00:44:16,490 --> 00:44:19,215

a special program for ADHD.

531

00:44:20,058 --> 00:44:24,616

And you know that the teachers in that program, they're specially trained.

532

00:44:28,328 --> 00:44:29,456

Yes.

533

00:44:29,826 --> 00:44:31,918

You're aware of that, correct?

534

00:44:31,918 --> 00:44:34,821

ah Well, yeah, they're specially trained.

535

00:44:34,821 --> 00:44:39,906

um Garrett is not in a special ed class.

536

00:44:40,428 --> 00:44:46,686

You know that Garrett participates in that special program for ADHD at his school,

correct?

537

00:44:47,778 --> 00:44:50,826

He participates, but he's not in it full time.

538

00:44:53,430 --> 00:45:02,546

Ma'am, on your direct testimony, you gave the judge all the important information you had

to give, correct?

539

00:45:03,434 --> 00:45:05,782

in the amount of time that I had, yes.

540

00:45:05,782 --> 00:45:07,581

You didn't leave anything out.

541

00:45:09,832 --> 00:45:10,715

I did leave.

542

00:45:10,715 --> 00:45:13,022

I mean, no, I didn't leave anything out.

543

00:45:13,484 --> 00:45:19,081

and you didn't express any concerns about the school that the children are currently in.

544

00:45:19,081 --> 00:45:20,362

Isn't that true?

545

00:45:23,178 --> 00:45:34,104

I recommended that they go to the Catholic school down the street from Jonathan's house

over the public school.

546

00:45:35,342 --> 00:45:38,107

em I understand your recommendation.

547

00:45:38,107 --> 00:45:38,588

Thank you.

548

00:45:38,588 --> 00:45:44,760

But my question was you didn't express any concerns about their current school.

549

00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,302

Can we agree on that?

550

00:45:47,736 --> 00:45:51,782

Well, I'll have to think about that because I...

551

00:45:53,784 --> 00:45:56,238

Well, I don't have concerns.

552

00:45:56,841 --> 00:46:01,021

I do think that the children would be better served in St.

553

00:46:01,021 --> 00:46:04,468

Paul's, the Catholic church down the street from us right now.

554

00:46:04,718 --> 00:46:10,538

Ma'am, I'd like to take you back to about a year ago, to May 14th of 24.

555

00:46:10,538 --> 00:46:11,894

Do you remember that?

556

00:46:11,894 --> 00:46:13,365

Yes, of course I do.

557

00:46:14,166 --> 00:46:16,851

And Garrett, he had an incident at school.

558

00:46:17,196 --> 00:46:19,339

His appendix burst.

559

00:46:20,438 --> 00:46:25,244

his appendix burst and the school called Jonathan.

560

00:46:25,926 --> 00:46:26,856

Correct?

561

00:46:27,276 --> 00:46:32,827

The school called Rebecca five times.

562

00:46:33,128 --> 00:46:35,708

They got no answer.

563

00:46:36,068 --> 00:46:40,650

And when they didn't get an answer, they called Jonathan's.

564

00:46:41,110 --> 00:46:42,470

I answered.

565

00:46:42,670 --> 00:46:44,791

They told me what happened.

566

00:46:44,811 --> 00:46:49,132

I went right out the door while I was driving.

567

00:46:49,132 --> 00:46:56,526

called Jonathan and said, Garrett, at that point, we didn't know it was appendicitis and

that it had burst.

568

00:46:56,526 --> 00:46:58,606

But I said, I'm going to pick up Garrett.

569

00:46:58,606 --> 00:47:00,642

He needs to go to the hospital.

570

00:47:00,642 --> 00:47:06,024

Ma'am, the school, when they called Jonathan, Jonathan couldn't come right then, could he?

571

00:47:10,376 --> 00:47:12,640

I, Jonathan was out of town.

572

00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,244

didn't call Jonathan.

573

00:47:14,244 --> 00:47:15,416

called the house.

574

00:47:15,416 --> 00:47:15,997

Yes.

575

00:47:15,997 --> 00:47:16,480

Yes.

576

00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:22,976

in the school they also called Rebecca and she couldn't come right then either could she?

577

00:47:22,976 --> 00:47:24,496

No, no, no.

578

00:47:25,607 --> 00:47:27,698

Thank goodness you were there.

579

00:47:28,694 --> 00:47:30,382

I would say so, yes.

580

00:47:30,382 --> 00:47:35,562

You took Garrett to the emergency room immediately.

581

00:47:36,742 --> 00:47:43,014

And within 90 minutes of him, Garrett being admitted, Rebecca was there, correct?

582

00:47:45,398 --> 00:47:46,509

Yes, but we were there.

583

00:47:46,509 --> 00:47:49,101

We're so hold on a second.

584

00:47:49,101 --> 00:47:53,395

We were there for a bit.

585

00:47:53,395 --> 00:48:05,314

You walk into emergency, you don't go straight in even even though the child was vomiting

and and and crying and in extreme pain, obviously.

586

00:48:05,455 --> 00:48:08,127

So it was more than 90 minutes total.

587

00:48:08,127 --> 00:48:14,970

But yes, 90 minutes after he was admitted through the emergency ward.

588

00:48:15,244 --> 00:48:16,534

Rebecca showed up.

589

00:48:16,534 --> 00:48:18,978

And Jonathan, came too, didn't

590

00:48:18,978 --> 00:48:21,032

Jonathan got there that evening.

591

00:48:21,032 --> 00:48:25,960

He was there in time when when Garrett was coming out of surgery.

592

00:48:26,464 --> 00:48:31,827

And man, according to your testimony, this shows something about Rebecca, doesn't it?

593

00:48:33,033 --> 00:48:35,528

It shows that she's unreliable.

594

00:48:40,794 --> 00:48:50,291

I can't imagine getting five calls from my son's elementary school and not picking up.

595

00:48:51,034 --> 00:48:52,908

That's not normal.

596

00:48:52,908 --> 00:48:57,493

This incident, proves she's unreliable, correct?

597

00:48:57,493 --> 00:48:59,324

That's what you testified earlier.

598

00:48:59,980 --> 00:49:01,387

Yes, thank you.

599

00:49:01,878 --> 00:49:06,214

And it doesn't show anything about Jonathan's reliability, it?

600

00:49:07,906 --> 00:49:09,426

This incident?

601

00:49:10,507 --> 00:49:12,778

No, it does show about his reliability.

602

00:49:12,778 --> 00:49:14,988

You know what his reliability is?

603

00:49:15,169 --> 00:49:16,149

Me.

604

00:49:16,449 --> 00:49:19,510

He knows I'm there 24-7.

605

00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:24,472

So yes, he was out of town on a job.

606

00:49:24,672 --> 00:49:29,864

The minute I called him, he was on his way to the airport and on an airplane.

607

00:49:29,912 --> 00:49:31,411

Thank you for your time today, Ms.

608

00:49:31,411 --> 00:49:32,275

Stills.

609

00:49:33,868 --> 00:49:35,308

You're done with me.

610

00:49:35,406 --> 00:49:37,294

I'm fast a witness, Steve is a

611

00:49:37,294 --> 00:49:40,530

I don't know how to turn my camera back on.

612

00:49:40,530 --> 00:49:41,442

Why is this not

613

00:49:41,442 --> 00:49:42,099

You uh

614

00:49:42,099 --> 00:49:44,750

I wanted to talk about Garrett.

615

00:49:48,179 --> 00:49:51,458

Am I allowed to stare on this broadcast?

616

00:49:51,458 --> 00:49:52,413

Yes, you can.

617

00:49:52,413 --> 00:49:53,269

All you want.

618

00:49:53,269 --> 00:49:54,158

All you want.

619

00:49:54,158 --> 00:49:58,001

That son of a bitch didn't let me talk about carrots!

620

00:49:58,122 --> 00:50:00,724

You guys make too much away!

621

00:50:02,754 --> 00:50:04,260

was wonderful.

622

00:50:04,821 --> 00:50:07,000

We're going to start with you, Shane.

623

00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:08,383

How did that feel to you?

624

00:50:09,046 --> 00:50:09,756

It felt good.

625

00:50:09,756 --> 00:50:21,324

mean, she did a good job, you know, pushing back on some stuff and, but yeah, I think we

were able to kind of get the points in hopefully that we were trying to get, you know,

626

00:50:21,324 --> 00:50:30,630

that would give me enough to, that would give us enough to make a good argument in

closing, you know, saying we've got a grandma who loves these kids and, you know, she sees

627

00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:33,378

things out of her perspective, but.

628

00:50:33,378 --> 00:50:40,243

you know, she did acknowledge and then I loved I wrote down she gave me Rebecca is a

wonderful entrepreneur.

629

00:50:40,243 --> 00:50:41,874

was digging for that one.

630

00:50:41,874 --> 00:50:44,585

was going to that in closing too.

631

00:50:45,358 --> 00:50:47,779

Absolutely.

632

00:50:47,779 --> 00:50:52,060

love the way that you started just in general, breaking down the family tree a little bit.

633

00:50:52,060 --> 00:50:59,152

um even the question, ma'am, your face lights up when you talk about your family.

634

00:50:59,152 --> 00:51:00,602

You love your family.

635

00:51:00,602 --> 00:51:06,004

And even whatever, as a jury, if we don't see that, her face lighting up, she's never

going to say no.

636

00:51:06,084 --> 00:51:11,345

So it's just a great kind of thing and an image that you're painting for us of this

loving.

637

00:51:12,998 --> 00:51:19,330

grandmother, obviously she's going to present that too, but it just is an extra kind of

layer that you can add it in there.

638

00:51:19,330 --> 00:51:33,894

I would say the way that you basically equated reliability, equated uh mom versus dad, I

was like, oh shit, actually, it's really unfair what people are asking of the mother

639

00:51:33,894 --> 00:51:36,605

versus what they're asking of a dad to do.

640

00:51:36,605 --> 00:51:42,406

When he is out of town 20 or more days and then you broke that down to 20 days equals 60%.

641

00:51:42,958 --> 00:51:49,763

uh Jonathan was completely out of town when this uh event happened with Garrett.

642

00:51:49,763 --> 00:52:04,255

um And then 90 minutes, her being there versus ours later, it just started to really paint

the picture in my head of what a double standard is for these two parents um as a fact

643

00:52:04,255 --> 00:52:04,665

finder.

644

00:52:04,665 --> 00:52:07,837

So I thought that that was really, really effective.

645

00:52:08,590 --> 00:52:17,690

I love Jane when you when you responded, I am the reliability that was so that was so

fantastic.

646

00:52:17,690 --> 00:52:23,310

I did a little a little little little arm shake there because I was enjoying that a little

fist bump.

647

00:52:23,410 --> 00:52:28,070

But Shane when when she gave you that, what do you what do do with that?

648

00:52:28,070 --> 00:52:37,910

Like what do you how does that either paint the picture for you or as far as your goal in

that cross like something when you get something like that from

649

00:52:38,370 --> 00:52:39,677

from the grandmother.

650

00:52:40,054 --> 00:52:42,996

So I was trying to decide there.

651

00:52:42,996 --> 00:52:47,598

You have to make these split decision uh decisions during trial.

652

00:52:47,598 --> 00:52:52,951

You can take something like that and then blow it up or what I made the decision.

653

00:52:52,951 --> 00:52:59,255

Cause I think if I had grabbed onto that and start putting that back to her, think Jean

was going to talk her way out of it.

654

00:52:59,255 --> 00:53:01,446

So I thought I've got that.

655

00:53:01,446 --> 00:53:08,870

And now in closing, I would argue your honor, you know, she is a very reliable, but she's

the grandmother.

656

00:53:09,370 --> 00:53:14,303

And what we've got, this is a case between two parents and their children and everything.

657

00:53:14,303 --> 00:53:17,514

And so that's how I was planning to use it.

658

00:53:17,574 --> 00:53:21,633

I was scared, Jean, if I'd gone back with you, yes, you're the reliable one.

659

00:53:21,633 --> 00:53:25,318

I think you would have started backpedaling, recognizing where I was going.

660

00:53:26,333 --> 00:53:29,019

No, I don't think I would have.

661

00:53:29,582 --> 00:53:32,622

I would love to hear, Jean, how you felt.

662

00:53:33,522 --> 00:53:36,834

How were you feeling on the inside when you were being crossed?

663

00:53:36,834 --> 00:53:56,386

Well, I think that if there's three loving people raising two beautiful children and two

of them are more concerned or concerned about their careers and keeping a roof over

664

00:53:56,386 --> 00:54:04,459

everybody's heads and all those kinds of things, then that's why I say I'm the reliable

one.

665

00:54:04,459 --> 00:54:05,044

Good.

666

00:54:05,044 --> 00:54:12,725

goodness they have a grandmother that's there and happy and available and was a teacher.

667

00:54:12,725 --> 00:54:27,241

know, I had all kinds of good stuff about behavioral therapists and you know, we don't

need a classroom with six other quote unquote special needs children.

668

00:54:27,241 --> 00:54:30,331

Garrett needs full time attention.

669

00:54:30,331 --> 00:54:32,002

ADHD.

670

00:54:32,655 --> 00:54:35,158

It can be calmed down.

671

00:54:35,380 --> 00:54:41,463

You know, I didn't even get to talk about the dog that Jonathan got for Derek.

672

00:54:41,463 --> 00:54:44,034

This beautiful woven retriever.

673

00:54:44,034 --> 00:54:48,177

Well, I love that you're talking about this, Gene, because this happens actually to the

witnesses that we prep.

674

00:54:48,177 --> 00:54:50,399

We do a lot of witness prep.

675

00:54:50,399 --> 00:54:58,825

And really, they just want their story to be told because the scope of their story is this

big, but the questions are this big, one little step at a time.

676

00:54:58,825 --> 00:55:07,481

And so it happens a lot because you want to be able to say everything and tell them the

reasons why.

677

00:55:07,481 --> 00:55:12,288

Shane, what was going through your head when the witness was kind of, you know...

678

00:55:12,288 --> 00:55:15,342

explaining and kind of going off in that respect.

679

00:55:15,342 --> 00:55:21,962

So there are several different ways you can control that, you know, with the witness.

680

00:55:21,962 --> 00:55:24,782

What I did here was just kind of let it go.

681

00:55:24,782 --> 00:55:33,242

And I don't know you noticed, I was listening for a word or two, she would say, and then I

would use that just to loop back to get on track of where I was going.

682

00:55:33,242 --> 00:55:40,062

I would say to lawyers out there, it's very frustrating when that happens, but you know,

that stuff happens.

683

00:55:40,062 --> 00:55:45,286

And so rather than acknowledging it and trying to jump on it, let them get you off your

684

00:55:45,292 --> 00:55:50,166

your plan, it's best just to kind of hammer back on and go to.

685

00:55:50,166 --> 00:55:56,890

Speaking of loops, really loved, uh you looped on the road that became a theme for a

while.

686

00:55:56,890 --> 00:56:03,734

And that was just like, and I think Gene gave you that he's on the road and you looped

that.

687

00:56:03,734 --> 00:56:14,070

it was like the perfect admission for that whole chapter that you were getting at with

Jonathan and his busy schedule and painting that picture.

688

00:56:14,070 --> 00:56:16,131

That was such a great loop.

689

00:56:16,131 --> 00:56:17,964

That was really well done.

690

00:56:17,964 --> 00:56:29,002

It was really frustrating because on the road, mean, when I was producing, I was on the

road when we did our taxes 150 nights out of the year.

691

00:56:29,122 --> 00:56:40,020

And so, but I still managed to get back home and I took care of my mother and, you know, I

had, I had someone here to help me with my mom and I, I have animals and I took care of

692

00:56:40,020 --> 00:56:43,613

them and I was able to do it all.

693

00:56:43,613 --> 00:56:45,454

And so in my mind,

694

00:56:45,570 --> 00:56:49,175

Jonathan is was not an absentee parent.

695

00:56:49,175 --> 00:56:50,536

He was on the road.

696

00:56:50,536 --> 00:56:55,122

He was working but Yeah, he got back as quick as he could

697

00:56:55,414 --> 00:56:56,025

Yeah.

698

00:56:56,025 --> 00:57:02,920

I, the other loop too, because of what you would put out, Jean, was that he's good at his

job and just in, in looping that.

699

00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:08,595

And I will say that as a listener too, that is like, you're, you're again, his job is high

on the totem pole.

700

00:57:08,595 --> 00:57:11,297

We're talking about his job quite a bit, right?

701

00:57:11,297 --> 00:57:14,290

Versus him being there for his family.

702

00:57:14,290 --> 00:57:24,197

And I will say, Jean, I don't know if you noticed, but as a listener and as you know,

working with trial attorneys, you actually started looping, uh, Shane because

703

00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:28,614

Shane said, and that means that you're in control and you didn't even realize it.

704

00:57:28,614 --> 00:57:31,296

Shane said, he's not there.

705

00:57:31,296 --> 00:57:32,097

You're there.

706

00:57:32,097 --> 00:57:33,768

And you said, yeah, he's not here.

707

00:57:33,768 --> 00:57:34,798

I'm here.

708

00:57:34,879 --> 00:57:36,710

And there was, that was only one.

709

00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:41,695

I, there was another one I didn't even write down, but that just shows sort of the way

he's also kind of steering you.

710

00:57:41,695 --> 00:57:46,309

And because it's keeping conversational, it's also kind of boosting you up as a witness.

711

00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:47,259

You want to be heard.

712

00:57:47,259 --> 00:57:48,591

You're a good grandma.

713

00:57:48,591 --> 00:57:52,270

You don't even realize that that's actually some of the things that are happening here.

714

00:57:52,270 --> 00:57:53,206

Yeah.

715

00:57:53,206 --> 00:57:59,153

I gave him ammunition for his clothes ah unwittingly.

716

00:58:00,172 --> 00:58:11,769

Jane, how did it feel like just separating yourself from the character and from this

really well self-actualized uh three-dimensional character that you created?

717

00:58:11,769 --> 00:58:18,092

Getting away from that and just thinking about that process, what was that emotionally

like?

718

00:58:18,092 --> 00:58:25,376

uh Was it uh more, was it smoother than you thought it would be?

719

00:58:25,997 --> 00:58:28,328

did you feel squeezed at any moment?

720

00:58:28,366 --> 00:58:29,786

I did.

721

00:58:31,406 --> 00:58:40,326

I was fully invested in Sandra and I knew what Shane was trying to do.

722

00:58:43,146 --> 00:58:57,126

I'm granny age and I have a very, very, very dear friend who did not want to be put in the

position of raising her granddaughters, two of them.

723

00:58:57,934 --> 00:59:03,474

ended up going to court and fighting and getting guardianship of two granddaughters.

724

00:59:03,474 --> 00:59:07,214

And that was a five or six year process.

725

00:59:07,214 --> 00:59:08,934

It was hard.

726

00:59:09,574 --> 00:59:19,474

She didn't want to say bad things about her daughter or her son-in-law, but the children

were not being well cared for.

727

00:59:19,634 --> 00:59:26,074

And so I was looking at it from the standpoint of, you know,

728

00:59:26,638 --> 00:59:29,758

I could be a good caretaker.

729

00:59:29,758 --> 00:59:30,998

could be a good grandmother.

730

00:59:30,998 --> 00:59:34,018

could do this.

731

00:59:34,558 --> 00:59:41,458

even at my age, I have a lot of energy and I want to do it.

732

00:59:41,458 --> 00:59:49,778

And so when he was pushing, but Rebecca's not there, but Jonathan's not there, it's like,

I'm here.

733

00:59:51,458 --> 00:59:53,198

So yes, I did.

734

00:59:53,798 --> 00:59:56,486

I pretty emotional about it.

735

00:59:56,898 --> 01:00:03,666

Shane, when she throws out or when any witness kind of throws out what we were talking

about earlier, I'm the reliable one.

736

01:00:03,666 --> 01:00:10,230

Did you make a quick note or what's your process to remember if you're not gonna use it

then but that you're gonna use it potentially in closing?

737

01:00:10,230 --> 01:00:12,100

Okay, so that is a great question.

738

01:00:12,100 --> 01:00:23,250

I would say to all lawyers out there, prepare your, we call them chapters, but however

you're gonna do your cross, get those prepared, but then keep by you some note cards.

739

01:00:23,250 --> 01:00:25,441

I always keep these on trial table.

740

01:00:25,441 --> 01:00:29,524

And anytime you get some good nuggets like that, just jot it down.

741

01:00:29,524 --> 01:00:37,070

Because now for your closing argument, you have a stack of note cards, and you can kind of

sequence them through and you can say, Judge,

742

01:00:37,070 --> 01:00:43,830

We heard this and we heard that and she admitted this and he admitted that and you can

really tie it all together that way.

743

01:00:43,830 --> 01:00:47,410

And by having them like that, you can get organized quickly.

744

01:00:47,810 --> 01:00:51,670

Because a trial will finish and they'll be like, okay, give your clothes counsel.

745

01:00:51,670 --> 01:00:55,430

And a judge doesn't want to wait to let you get organized or whatever.

746

01:00:55,512 --> 01:00:56,332

Thank you for that.

747

01:00:56,332 --> 01:00:57,333

That's really great.

748

01:00:57,333 --> 01:01:04,817

And especially when it's like, you always want to prepare as much as you can, but when you

have those, like you said, those nuggets already and it allows you to flip through and

749

01:01:04,817 --> 01:01:08,910

organize them in a way that you feel comfortable and confident, that's really helpful.

750

01:01:08,910 --> 01:01:09,432

Thank you.

751

01:01:09,432 --> 01:01:18,231

I did want to ask you really quick, Shane, you face, and I think she was a very

sympathetic witness, obviously, like very, very sympathetic.

752

01:01:18,231 --> 01:01:28,780

And you could not, that would be a, uh I just think like stepping on a landmine if you

were really strong arming are too much.

753

01:01:28,901 --> 01:01:34,516

Do you face this kind of witness often in the cases that you are working on?

754

01:01:34,936 --> 01:01:35,846

Sure.

755

01:01:35,846 --> 01:01:41,128

At most witnesses, the judge doesn't want to see a lawyer come in and bully someone.

756

01:01:41,128 --> 01:01:42,288

Think about that story.

757

01:01:42,288 --> 01:01:48,310

If we're all driving by a kid's playground, over in the corner you see a big kid pushing

on a little kid at recess.

758

01:01:48,310 --> 01:01:49,850

Who do you want to help?

759

01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:55,462

Everyone feels the same way except for sociopaths and that's a whole different podcast.

760

01:01:55,462 --> 01:02:03,494

But so you don't want to create that environment as the lawyer where the judge feels like

I need to jump in and help Jane, know, or Jean.

761

01:02:03,494 --> 01:02:04,454

um

762

01:02:04,536 --> 01:02:09,716

So I think that's another reason this constructive cross is the way to go.

763

01:02:10,178 --> 01:02:11,921

And you've taught this style a lot.

764

01:02:11,921 --> 01:02:17,910

So what do you think is the biggest challenges for attorneys who are doing and learning

constructive cross?

765

01:02:18,424 --> 01:02:29,559

getting over the deal, we all think because we've seen the movies that Gene has so

artfully crafted and made, but we all think our job as lawyers is to go in attack, attack,

766

01:02:29,559 --> 01:02:30,379

attack.

767

01:02:30,379 --> 01:02:37,402

And that's actually not the way to be effective and persuasive in the courtrooms we have

now.

768

01:02:37,402 --> 01:02:43,725

I think a long time ago, people went to court for the show to see the lawyer perform and

to see all that.

769

01:02:43,725 --> 01:02:45,626

Let's fast forward to today.

770

01:02:45,626 --> 01:02:46,754

Judges have

771

01:02:46,754 --> 01:02:48,997

too many cases on their dockets.

772

01:02:48,997 --> 01:02:51,540

They don't want to hear the nonsense.

773

01:02:51,540 --> 01:02:52,942

Same for jurors.

774

01:02:52,942 --> 01:02:54,374

Everybody's busy.

775

01:02:54,374 --> 01:02:56,286

They want to get in and out.

776

01:02:56,286 --> 01:03:02,534

And so they're going to give the most respect to the person who's the most respectful with

their time.

777

01:03:02,894 --> 01:03:14,723

Do you ever remember, you know, it's maybe more than just one time, but do you ever

remember a moment where you kind of first saw these techniques or just any kind of really

778

01:03:14,723 --> 01:03:25,140

memorable time where you flipped a witness because you were using these constructive cross

techniques and it made a big difference for you?

779

01:03:25,624 --> 01:03:37,177

Yes, recently I got in a case and I think I was the third lawyer in representing my client

and it was set, uh I got in and the trial dates were already set and it was like a four

780

01:03:37,177 --> 01:03:37,858

day trial.

781

01:03:37,858 --> 01:03:47,920

We were fighting about custody and I had the man and there was a guardian ad litem in

place and I don't know if they have those across the country but this is a person that the

782

01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:53,622

court has appointed as an expert to come in, investigate everything and make a

recommendation.

783

01:03:53,634 --> 01:04:00,317

this person had made a recommendation that my client should receive less than standard

visitation.

784

01:04:00,317 --> 01:04:03,798

So less than every other weekend type deal.

785

01:04:03,858 --> 01:04:15,114

And by using these methods, uh I'll skip to the end result and then I can tell you how we

did it if you want, but by using these methods, the judge actually ruled, my client got 50

786

01:04:15,114 --> 01:04:16,824

% time with his son.

787

01:04:16,824 --> 01:04:19,424

And so that was a big deal.

788

01:04:20,745 --> 01:04:22,688

yeah, judges,

789

01:04:22,688 --> 01:04:28,985

If you think about, appoint these experts, so they really trust them a lot and they want

to protect them and everything.

790

01:04:28,985 --> 01:04:32,649

And more often than not, they follow their recommendations.

791

01:04:32,649 --> 01:04:35,272

So to get something like that was a big deal.

792

01:04:35,272 --> 01:04:37,404

And I can tell you more about it if you want to.

793

01:04:37,976 --> 01:04:39,389

I would love that.

794

01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:40,190

Okay.

795

01:04:40,190 --> 01:04:49,154

So what we did is we went in and at first we started off with this guardian I lied and

this expert but really building him up.

796

01:04:49,154 --> 01:04:51,465

Sir, you've been doing this 30 plus years.

797

01:04:51,465 --> 01:04:53,386

You've testified in front of this judge a lot.

798

01:04:53,386 --> 01:04:57,587

You've you know, so he's yeah, everything's yes.

799

01:04:57,587 --> 01:04:58,210

Yes.

800

01:04:58,210 --> 01:05:04,730

And then we went into now, sir, you're also a human and humans are not perfect.

801

01:05:04,730 --> 01:05:09,740

Like sometimes humans get things wrong and sir, would agree with me.

802

01:05:09,740 --> 01:05:12,732

there could be other experts in the same position.

803

01:05:12,732 --> 01:05:16,055

They could look at these same facts and have a different opinion.

804

01:05:16,055 --> 01:05:18,437

So reasonable experts can differ.

805

01:05:18,597 --> 01:05:27,385

And then uh we started going into, sir, we had facts prepared that he wasn't aware of, God

blessing.

806

01:05:27,385 --> 01:05:30,137

And so we were able to say, now sir, you didn't know about that.

807

01:05:30,137 --> 01:05:32,068

And that could have impacted your opinion.

808

01:05:32,068 --> 01:05:33,069

You didn't know about this.

809

01:05:33,069 --> 01:05:34,691

And that could have impacted.

810

01:05:34,691 --> 01:05:39,318

And then finally, closing argument, my argument was not attacking him.

811

01:05:39,318 --> 01:05:40,920

It was actually building him up.

812

01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,403

was, judge, this is a great guardian that lied to me.

813

01:05:43,403 --> 01:05:46,387

He does a great job in this case, judge.

814

01:05:46,387 --> 01:05:47,910

He's just missed it.

815

01:05:47,910 --> 01:05:51,473

Let me tell you why he didn't know about these things and he didn't.

816

01:05:51,575 --> 01:05:54,758

And because of that, the judge ruled out.

817

01:05:55,022 --> 01:06:05,762

That is actually what we talk about when it comes to like that yes and method because the

yes is the boosting the witness up and you did it with Jean when you're reliable, you're a

818

01:06:05,762 --> 01:06:15,754

grandma, you love your family and then you anded her basically using that and to connect

it to a fact that works for you and in your case.

819

01:06:15,754 --> 01:06:23,917

You know, it's really hard to uh make someone out to be this crazy villain unless the

facts really show that that's another thing.

820

01:06:23,917 --> 01:06:34,262

But when you have somebody like this or somebody that's a well-respected professional, uh

it's really hard to just go out there and make them look completely incompetent or

821

01:06:34,262 --> 01:06:35,362

incompetent at all.

822

01:06:35,362 --> 01:06:45,516

But when you do that, you build them up and then you start pointing out the inequities in

that particular case with these particular facts.

823

01:06:45,666 --> 01:06:50,287

then I think that's where it's like, well, yeah, just like you said, no one's perfect.

824

01:06:50,287 --> 01:06:51,028

No one's perfect.

825

01:06:51,028 --> 01:06:55,949

And sometimes people are put at a disadvantage when they're not, I mean, like that's the

whole thing.

826

01:06:55,949 --> 01:06:59,190

So it's not like full on, it's not attacking them at all.

827

01:06:59,190 --> 01:07:00,210

It's just pointing out.

828

01:07:00,210 --> 01:07:07,332

It's like you're there going back to that idea of like, you're there as the guide to the

facts, right?

829

01:07:07,332 --> 01:07:09,913

The guide to the story.

830

01:07:09,913 --> 01:07:14,634

And it's such a nice way where you're not, you know, putting yourself front and center

831

01:07:14,634 --> 01:07:17,995

or trying to scream and yell about don't believe them, don't believe them.

832

01:07:17,995 --> 01:07:21,617

You're just saying, Hey, look, these are the facts.

833

01:07:21,657 --> 01:07:29,120

And, and put it together, you know, you know, the answer, because you're trusting, you

know, you're trusting your judges.

834

01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:34,542

And, I think same people with when they have a jury, they should trust their jury, that

they can put those things together.

835

01:07:34,542 --> 01:07:37,973

And they'll see it, they'll put that equation together.

836

01:07:37,973 --> 01:07:43,676

And they'll see what, you know, what that with the, with the sum is, or whatever you want

to put it.

837

01:07:43,676 --> 01:07:44,302

Yeah.

838

01:07:44,302 --> 01:07:51,545

They're going to come to it as humans, whether judges or juries, we will stick with a

conclusion that we reach on our own.

839

01:07:51,545 --> 01:07:54,447

But you start forcing a conclusion on me.

840

01:07:54,447 --> 01:07:55,627

I'm ready to fight.

841

01:07:55,627 --> 01:07:57,108

You know, I'm going to push back.

842

01:07:57,108 --> 01:08:08,563

And one, for example, one chapter I thought about making on this was using the fact that

Jean was retired after 32 years, she retired.

843

01:08:08,563 --> 01:08:12,134

I could have blown up the fact like basically trying to say,

844

01:08:12,530 --> 01:08:16,503

you didn't have the stamina or the skills to keep doing it anymore.

845

01:08:16,503 --> 01:08:18,175

And I thought that would be too negative.

846

01:08:18,175 --> 01:08:20,817

Like you don't want to come attack a grandma.

847

01:08:20,907 --> 01:08:21,820

Mm-hmm.

848

01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:23,104

So I'm going to.

849

01:08:23,104 --> 01:08:25,310

it's not going to be perceived well.

850

01:08:25,310 --> 01:08:31,011

Yeah, right Especially when it's it's about really the the two parents, right?

851

01:08:31,011 --> 01:08:34,889

I think also it's just like oh, you know You're putting her in the line of fire for no

reason.

852

01:08:34,889 --> 01:08:35,570

Yeah

853

01:08:35,570 --> 01:08:44,914

I love that because that was that was the whole thing is just like, Hey, I know that

grandma that's part of the equation, but we've got to narrow that scope.

854

01:08:44,914 --> 01:08:46,754

What is this really about?

855

01:08:46,754 --> 01:08:51,676

And this is your parents, you know, that doesn't mean grandma can't be involved.

856

01:08:51,676 --> 01:09:03,565

It's just, we got to focus on and that's I think that was the best thing that you were

able to do with this testimony is get that refocus of the case and not get it and you

857

01:09:03,565 --> 01:09:04,381

know, not

858

01:09:04,386 --> 01:09:06,813

blow it up or get it out of hand.

859

01:09:06,813 --> 01:09:13,189

That's such a nice, tangible like goal that I think you were really successful at.

860

01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,518

I think you have just summed up the closing argument for this case.

861

01:09:17,518 --> 01:09:24,602

I want to bring it back to you, Gene, because for anybody, even for me, I've been acting

since I was in the fifth grade.

862

01:09:24,602 --> 01:09:27,554

Performing in front of an audience is still difficult.

863

01:09:27,554 --> 01:09:36,768

And trial attorneys, that is also their job in terms of things that they might have not

even learned about or received any support when it comes to...

864

01:09:36,768 --> 01:09:38,149

uh

865

01:09:38,306 --> 01:09:39,007

law school.

866

01:09:39,007 --> 01:09:43,733

So with a lot on the line, especially, uh you know, it can be nerve wracking.

867

01:09:43,733 --> 01:09:51,562

But at least as an actor, Jean, how do you manage your anxiety so that you can perform on

stage or in front of a camera?

868

01:09:52,238 --> 01:10:04,205

I don't always manage it, but I meditate and I do breathing exercises and those kinds of

things.

869

01:10:04,545 --> 01:10:18,733

I think also if I can talk to somebody who's involved in whatever it is I'm doing that day

or um a new show or something like that, um if I can talk to somebody who's in charge and

870

01:10:18,733 --> 01:10:20,846

just get more information about

871

01:10:20,846 --> 01:10:26,926

what's going to happen and how it's going to happen and what's expected of me and all of

those kinds of things.

872

01:10:26,926 --> 01:10:32,266

That calms me down because now I know what I'm walking into.

873

01:10:32,526 --> 01:10:44,466

It's when you don't know when it's all, you know, you get on the set or you get to the

theater and, you know, you sit down and everybody at the table but you has everything

874

01:10:44,466 --> 01:10:47,266

memorized on the first read through.

875

01:10:47,406 --> 01:10:50,060

I remember being a young actress and having that.

876

01:10:50,060 --> 01:10:54,593

happened to me and thinking I will never do this again.

877

01:10:54,593 --> 01:11:01,148

I'm going to come in, you know, closed off book because that's what they did.

878

01:11:01,148 --> 01:11:05,781

That's how they prepared and took care of their anxiety.

879

01:11:05,781 --> 01:11:07,422

So that's helped a lot.

880

01:11:07,886 --> 01:11:09,618

Shane, what do you do with your jitters?

881

01:11:09,618 --> 01:11:14,124

I know we didn't have this question ahead of time for you, but do you feel those?

882

01:11:14,124 --> 01:11:16,135

That's a great question for lawyers.

883

01:11:16,135 --> 01:11:16,795

Yeah.

884

01:11:16,795 --> 01:11:19,956

Always have that fear, you know, and that anxiety.

885

01:11:19,956 --> 01:11:29,758

One thing that helps me is really putting things in perspective, meaning, you know, with

the client's cases, I didn't create these problems.

886

01:11:29,758 --> 01:11:32,169

These aren't my kids or my grandkids.

887

01:11:32,169 --> 01:11:38,201

You know, my job is to come in as an advocate and do the very best that I can for them.

888

01:11:38,201 --> 01:11:41,251

But it's the judge's job to make the decision.

889

01:11:41,251 --> 01:11:43,262

I've got to bring out the facts and,

890

01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:45,992

try to persuade, but it's on the judge.

891

01:11:45,992 --> 01:11:58,412

And then I would say from a personal standpoint, exercise is important, getting enough

sleep, em eating healthy and everything, not drinking too much.

892

01:11:58,412 --> 01:12:01,104

I mean, I've done all those other things guys and they don't work.

893

01:12:01,104 --> 01:12:06,549

em this is the way you have to do it.

894

01:12:06,549 --> 01:12:08,194

I've found to be able to function.

895

01:12:08,194 --> 01:12:09,616

Yeah, absolutely.

896

01:12:09,616 --> 01:12:15,594

I mean, I know that I'm sure, especially in family law, there's a lot of emotion that you

could potentially take on.

897

01:12:15,594 --> 01:12:24,034

But obviously, taking care of yourself first and foremost is going to make you a better

advocate and be able to sustain everything that you have on your shoulders.

898

01:12:24,578 --> 01:12:45,156

I was just going to say, also think that uh for Shane, even though he's ah using the word

advocate and not really, he's leaving it in the hands of the judge, as an advocate, you

899

01:12:45,156 --> 01:12:47,878

already have taken a side.

900

01:12:49,130 --> 01:12:58,977

And so, yeah, and so walking in there knowing I'm fighting for this, this person, this

outcome, these things.

901

01:12:58,977 --> 01:13:01,048

And that's the same thing that actors do.

902

01:13:01,048 --> 01:13:05,901

look at every scene and figure out who's going to win this time.

903

01:13:06,302 --> 01:13:08,063

And you're fighting for something.

904

01:13:08,063 --> 01:13:16,729

And that also, it makes it exciting for the judge and helps them invest in the story.

905

01:13:16,729 --> 01:13:17,940

m

906

01:13:17,940 --> 01:13:22,216

as a performer, as a lawyer, it excites you.

907

01:13:22,670 --> 01:13:30,110

know, that fight in your belly is the thing that makes you uh a good lawyer.

908

01:13:32,292 --> 01:13:35,577

Congratulations, you came in with a good fight.

909

01:13:36,972 --> 01:13:39,579

You were an excellent witness, I'll tell you why.

910

01:13:39,579 --> 01:13:41,256

Well, thank you.

911

01:13:41,256 --> 01:13:46,008

Shane, if you had to cross this witness tomorrow, what's something you would take away

from today?

912

01:13:46,008 --> 01:13:52,161

So after talking today, I almost am wondering, I'd like to get you guys thoughts.

913

01:13:53,122 --> 01:13:57,414

Using this method, gives us a lot of control and we can kind of bring things back in

bounce.

914

01:13:57,414 --> 01:14:06,579

But after hearing her and she would have gone off about how as a grandmother, she should

have been caring and she's the reliable one and everything.

915

01:14:06,579 --> 01:14:13,393

Maybe I should have spun off and let her do that because while I understand that and

everything, that's not what the law is.

916

01:14:13,393 --> 01:14:15,597

And that would have been very helpful for my client.

917

01:14:15,597 --> 01:14:16,376

So.

918

01:14:16,442 --> 01:14:24,500

When I was or we were all creating this because we get to do a lot of creative writing

with these cases now and we talked to talk to other lawyers to kind of give us some ideas,

919

01:14:24,500 --> 01:14:36,111

but the idea was this the I that the grandmother was pushing this more than the son and

that's the problem, right?

920

01:14:36,111 --> 01:14:42,016

That's the problem is that this isn't this isn't the son saying this the actual father

921

01:14:42,082 --> 01:14:44,583

This is the grandmother that's pushing for this.

922

01:14:44,583 --> 01:14:52,368

And, and, and that's where I imagine that the problem for poor Sandra stills is, is that

she isn't one of the parents.

923

01:14:52,368 --> 01:15:05,355

Um, and, and so I think you could go, I think the more she starts talking, that's why,

when I heard I am the, reliability, I'm like, go tell us about how you are the only one

924

01:15:05,355 --> 01:15:07,236

that can care for these kids.

925

01:15:07,236 --> 01:15:10,904

You're the, it, it stops there because these two parents are

926

01:15:10,904 --> 01:15:13,818

can't do what they, you know, can't spend the time to do it.

927

01:15:13,818 --> 01:15:15,390

I don't think that's a bad thing.

928

01:15:15,390 --> 01:15:17,273

I don't think that's a problem at all.

929

01:15:17,273 --> 01:15:20,126

But Olivia, any thoughts on on on that?

930

01:15:21,078 --> 01:15:21,729

totally agree.

931

01:15:21,729 --> 01:15:26,173

I'm glad you brought that up because there was multiple times where was like, she's making

it about her.

932

01:15:26,173 --> 01:15:26,650

Wait a second.

933

01:15:26,650 --> 01:15:31,388

It started to make me question who was actually in this case, but that's perfect, right?

934

01:15:31,388 --> 01:15:35,262

Because she is kind of going off and making it about her and boosting herself up.

935

01:15:35,262 --> 01:15:39,896

And uh no, I think that that's definitely a fantastic takeaway for sure.

936

01:15:39,896 --> 01:15:41,817

That's what I was thinking as a listener.

937

01:15:41,876 --> 01:15:42,567

I agree.

938

01:15:42,567 --> 01:15:46,766

If I could recross her, I would try to blow those points up more.

939

01:15:46,766 --> 01:15:48,751

That's good because that was my intention.

940

01:15:48,751 --> 01:15:55,926

I had direction from Steve that Granny did want to take over.

941

01:15:55,926 --> 01:16:09,117

No, and I think that's, um, you know, anytime you can get, you know, playing this myself,

a good witness, I think has to can, can, uh, show that they're emotionally involved.

942

01:16:09,117 --> 01:16:11,699

Like they're, they're, they're, they're, care.

943

01:16:11,699 --> 01:16:19,966

They obviously want to do that, but there's always that, that danger of like, I don't want

to say unhinged, but going a little bit too far.

944

01:16:19,966 --> 01:16:25,070

And I think if it's an opposing witness and you can get them to

945

01:16:25,346 --> 01:16:26,566

go a little bit too far.

946

01:16:26,566 --> 01:16:30,048

uh You know, and I think that can be to your advantage.

947

01:16:30,048 --> 01:16:31,128

I mean, how about this?

948

01:16:31,128 --> 01:16:39,852

The one thing I do know prepping witnesses for the cases that we prep them for, civil

defense attorneys, the ones that are working for the insurance companies, when they're

949

01:16:39,852 --> 01:16:48,516

dealing with people with traumatic brain injuries or any kind of emotional issues, my God,

they do this all the time.

950

01:16:48,516 --> 01:16:55,038

They try to, and it's a real, it's heartbreaking because these people are already

susceptible

951

01:16:55,282 --> 01:17:06,160

to having a hard time controlling themselves because it's physically, know, their body is

not allowing them to do that anymore.

952

01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:09,672

Their brains are not allowing them to do they're irritable.

953

01:17:09,953 --> 01:17:12,985

And, and I don't mean that to denigrate anybody.

954

01:17:12,985 --> 01:17:15,557

It's just it's the medical facts.

955

01:17:15,557 --> 01:17:22,782

And so the civil defense attorneys, we see that as a tactic all the time and depositions

that they're pushing these people and, and

956

01:17:22,854 --> 01:17:24,135

little digs to get at them.

957

01:17:24,135 --> 01:17:26,827

And obviously in this case, you don't have to do any digging.

958

01:17:26,827 --> 01:17:33,081

You don't have to make yourself, um you know, you know, I want to say icky, but icky like

that.

959

01:17:33,081 --> 01:17:39,586

um You could just do it just by, you know, feeding her feeding her those questions and

building on that.

960

01:17:39,586 --> 01:17:49,152

And then that way you don't look, you know, you're staying out of the fray still, but

you're, you're giving her the, the, the, uh the ammunition that she wants, because she

961

01:17:49,152 --> 01:17:50,973

wants to tell that story really bad.

962

01:17:50,973 --> 01:17:52,366

And, and when I heard that,

963

01:17:52,366 --> 01:17:57,673

ah When I heard that I am the reliability that for me was, in fact, that's my one thing,

Olivia.

964

01:17:57,673 --> 01:18:03,646

That's one of my one of my takeaways today is one of my favorite parts of today was I am

the reliability.

965

01:18:03,646 --> 01:18:04,373

I love that.

966

01:18:04,373 --> 01:18:07,718

But anyways, Shane, I don't know if that helps at all.

967

01:18:07,718 --> 01:18:09,940

But just from our experience, like

968

01:18:10,188 --> 01:18:17,512

Jean, anything that stood out for you today, knowing that this is not necessarily your

wheelhouse, but what did you find from today?

969

01:18:18,218 --> 01:18:23,580

First of all, it was just great fun and Shane was so good.

970

01:18:23,580 --> 01:18:28,041

I did feel as though he was coming at me and coming after me.

971

01:18:28,101 --> 01:18:31,242

But it was hard not to be defensive.

972

01:18:31,242 --> 01:18:40,084

um I couldn't just answer the question because I didn't feel as though the question was

complete enough.

973

01:18:40,084 --> 01:18:43,145

I needed to give more information in there.

974

01:18:43,145 --> 01:18:46,986

And I know that witnesses aren't supposed to do that.

975

01:18:47,690 --> 01:18:55,510

answer the question but he was pushing me good and I don't know how this case turns out.

976

01:18:55,510 --> 01:19:00,305

know, I'm not, Granny's not feeling so good over here.

977

01:19:02,402 --> 01:19:09,055

Jane, I just want to say that that was so like the way that we like to play and really

with a lot of honesty.

978

01:19:09,055 --> 01:19:16,818

I think the way you played it today was so, so honest and and uh it was so beautiful as

like seeing you play that character.

979

01:19:16,818 --> 01:19:19,389

And that's what's going to happen.

980

01:19:19,389 --> 01:19:27,503

Yeah, even when we're even when we're Yeah, even when we're playing those experts that

have like, you know, they want to tell that story too.

981

01:19:27,503 --> 01:19:28,993

And they're to look for those opportunities.

982

01:19:28,993 --> 01:19:31,554

And sometimes yes and no is not enough.

983

01:19:31,704 --> 01:19:35,619

to, uh, to, to, answer that completely.

984

01:19:35,619 --> 01:19:40,224

And I think you didn't do anything other than what I think Sandra stills would have done.

985

01:19:40,224 --> 01:19:41,928

And that was fantastic.

986

01:19:41,928 --> 01:19:46,028

Shane, where can people find you or book you to speak at events?

987

01:19:46,028 --> 01:19:54,461

Yeah, so shanehenrylaw.com, all my information's on there and that'd be the place.

988

01:19:54,606 --> 01:19:55,992

How can we connect with you, Dean?

989

01:19:55,992 --> 01:19:57,433

Well, I'm on Facebook.

990

01:19:57,433 --> 01:20:02,527

I have a wonderful Facebook page called the Jean Bruce Scott Archive.

991

01:20:02,588 --> 01:20:10,735

A friend and I put it together and post at least three or four times a week covering my

whole career and what's coming up.

992

01:20:10,735 --> 01:20:13,577

So that's a great place to find me.

993

01:20:13,577 --> 01:20:23,214

And then if you want to see some of my credits and what my career has been, you can go to

imdb.com, Jean Bruce Scott, and you'll find me.

994

01:20:23,214 --> 01:20:30,234

To all our listeners, if you're enjoying what you're seeing, please give us a review,

follow us.

995

01:20:30,234 --> 01:20:33,254

And when I say give us a review, please give us a five star review.

996

01:20:33,254 --> 01:20:38,054

helps us out so much reach more lawyers and more people that would be interested in this.

997

01:20:38,054 --> 01:20:42,918

And tell your colleagues about this show too and get them to follow us as well.

998

01:20:42,926 --> 01:20:48,366

That is the end of today's experiment and we hope you take the best of it to court with

you.

999

01:20:48,366 --> 01:20:50,804

See you all next time on Cross Lab.

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01:21:26,776 --> 01:21:32,831

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