Crossing The Angelic Defendant

And now that we have a jury, you accept that this accident and the damages caused were all

your fault.

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Yes, within the last couple of days, yes.

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Thank you, that's all I have.

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I don't know if I went long enough, did I go long enough?

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That was perfect.

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It was like just 14 minutes.

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dear.

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I don't think you could go any longer.

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It be a murder and then we'd have another case on our hands because of the murder that you

caused to this poor witness.

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We're not just trial consultants.

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been cross-examined over 1,500 times in cross simulations to help train and coach some of

the world's top trial attorneys.

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through live witness sparring, we'll test constructive cross techniques, share fresh

insights, and explore new strategies.

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And even though the testimony may be fake, the trial skills?

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Totally real.

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So let's experiment, discover what works, and have some fun in CrossLab.

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The show is brought to you by Trial House Consulting and powered by LawPods.

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Welcome to CrossLab.

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I'm Steve Holman.

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And I'm Olivia Espinosa.

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First off, we need to be honest.

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We're not lawyers and we're not going to talk about the law.

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Specifically, we are focused on storytelling and how you make your witness and jury feel

through what has been famously called constructive cross.

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We call it a yes and cross.

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Basically, it's the strategy of making the opposing witness a tool to tell your case

narrative.

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And if you've ever watched or listened to CrossLab before, you know that we designed a

test case that sparks ideas, word choice, and questions that you can use for your next

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deposition or trial.

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and I, in past episodes, also simulate the cross-examination witnesses.

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But for this episode, we've got a guest mock witness who will be sparring against our

attorney.

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So let's introduce them and get started.

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Okay, joining us today we have Suzy Njiji and she is here for a second time in the cross

lab.

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She's an award-winning trial attorney based in Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay area

representing plaintiffs exclusively in personal injury and wrongful death cases.

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You might've recently seen her on TLU's case analysis discussing her case that led to a

huge $25.5 million verdict.

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Welcome Suzy.

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Thank you, it's great to be here.

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So happy to have you back.

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also have Sarah.

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Sarah Taylor is here as our guest performer to play the part of our defendant in today's

test case.

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Sarah is an actor, a writer, and a stage manager based in Los Angeles.

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She's an acting graduate from Emerson College, and she loves all aspects of storytelling

and has actually been helping us in our cross-club classes recently, offering really great

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insight to our participants.

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We're so happy to have you here, Sarah.

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Happy to be here, thanks for having me.

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Well, welcome Susie and Sarah.

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Before we jump into our mock case, we wanna actually have a discussion about what this

case is kind of about today.

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Yeah, so this mock case we're tackling today involves a plaintiff who is an immigrant male

and a defendant who is a young white female.

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So in this case, there could be multiple biases that could be a factor.

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And so before we jump into that cross, we want to just have a conversation about facing

that head on, things that might come up, and building a strategy that can give your client

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the best chance to be seen and their story to be told clearly.

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And in general, what to do when you're asking for real damages against a sympathetic

defendant.

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So, Suzy, you just did a big trial in the Bay Area, a blue-collar worker.

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And did you find that bias played a role in any way in that particular trial?

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Well, I think it's always there and you have to deal with it uh right away in jury

selection.

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So the voir dire is really crafted to elicit any expressions of bias in your potential

jurors and to make sure that any who are likely to sort of discount

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the damages of your client because of his ethnicity or demographic place in society, that

those people are not on your jury.

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And Alameda County is a pretty good place for that.

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We have a diverse population and an increasingly uh technologically savvy population.

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We have Silicon Valley nearby and people who work there and in San Francisco really love

to live in the East Bay.

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in Berkeley where I am, and in other towns in the East Bay, it's just uh for lifestyle,

it's great.

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So we had a lot of intelligent people on our jury and it wasn't as big a problem in this

case as it would be in many other venues in the state or in the country.

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You know, when you're talking about obviously the geography of where you were, uh it makes

me want to ask you how drastically does your geographic location of a trial influence your

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expectations for personal injury verdict?

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does, I mean, you basically have to decide when you file your complaint what jurisdiction

you want to be in.

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And as a plaintiff's attorney, if you have a choice, then you're going to do that analysis

and you're going to pick the jurisdiction where you think the jury pool is going to be

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more favorable to plaintiffs.

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And sometimes there is a fight about that, where the defense will, if they can, put you in

federal court.

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And if they do that, then you've got

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the federal court jury being pulled from various counties within the district.

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So um if it's oh the Northern District of California, you don't just get the East Bay, you

also get San Francisco, and you get some conservative counties um that are also included

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in that district.

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So that's one example.

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And then another example is when the um plaintiff picks a favorable forum and then the

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the defense comes in and says, we belong in this other court where there more conservative

jurors.

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fact, I experienced that in an aviation case many years ago when McDonnell Douglas was

based in St.

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Louis.

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And apparently, there is one half of St.

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Louis is very working class and the other half

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is uh upper class and more affluent.

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And we had filed in the working class.

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And there was a big fight with all these aviation defense lawyers, a whole mob of them,

trying to get us in the other part of St.

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Louis.

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uh And not knowing anything about St.

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Louis, I sort of, I walked into that and had to make the argument to the court that we had

filed in the correct county.

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Or part of, uh I guess the county was divided.

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I still don't know how that worked, but.

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That's how important it is to be in a Plano-friendly county.

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Wow, so how did that end up working out for you?

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We won.

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was especially fun because I was just by myself and I basically had to, you know, ice

skate to court, which I'm a Californian and I don't know where I was in my pumps.

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And there were all these defense lawyers in the courtroom and the judge, you know,

listened to me.

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And so we prevailed and it was, that's why I remember it so well because it was a fun

appearance.

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Yes, wow.

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I mean, I was actually gonna, when I introduced you, I forgot to say, like, you're a

badass.

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You really, really are.

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Like, when I think of badass lawyer, I think of you because of just the...

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And you even said it in this particular case that you were talking about.

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um In that jurisdiction, like, you are up against multiple people.

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And in fact, with the recent case uh in Berkeley, you were up against multiple

corporations, right?

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Yeah, yeah, well there were three defense firms against me.

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And I did the whole case myself, em except for a very brief time I had recruited a friend

to co-counsel with me, but then she couldn't do the trial.

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And so I brought my son in to do the trial.

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And he was recently out of law school, but he was a great asset em and nobody knew we were

related.

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So that was awful fun.

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Yeah, we did a, we actually on our last CROSS Lab episode, we did an episode where we had

a couple of father son teams and they talked about sort of, you know, what it's like to do

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that too.

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So yes, absolutely.

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So when we go back to sort of that conversation about your jury members, how do you

approach that to kind of get those biases or potential biases out?

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How do you kind of broach those subjects?

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Well, there's kind of two things.

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The one is, has to do with the ethnicity.

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um And you, that's a tough one.

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I mean, I know that some people will get up there and they will talk about um how we all

harbor biases.

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You're not really going to get anybody to admit to um being biased against uh Latin

Americans or against people of color or women even.

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You're not going to get them to say that.

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So you really have to.

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Do your homework in terms of focus groups and get an idea of what interests oh people are

going to talk about if they are less likely to be biased and what they're going to talk

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about if they are more likely to be biased against your plaintiff.

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So it's become very refined.

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um We do a lot of data studying before we go to trial.

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So you come in with that knowledge um and you ask your questions accordingly.

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The other big bias is against lawyers asking for big numbers and um asking for big numbers

for people who earn a minimum wage or who aren't really rich.

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And there's some more dear, some jury selection lines of questioning where you can ask

people, do you think that, you know, Bill Gates' life um is worth more than, um you know,

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the guy who does your garden?

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um And so we can ask questions like that and get a lot of information.

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And also sort of let the jury understand that, if they really think that Bill Gates life

is worth more or someone else who's really rich, it makes them wonder, well, what is that

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based on and is that fair?

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So it's kind of a nice process.

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Do you find that even with all that research that there, and it goes into what you're

saying about is Bill Gates life more important than uh your landscaper or somebody doing a

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minimum wage job?

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Do you find that in our just overall, you're working with juries in any case that there is

a bit of a bias against blue collar or working class people versus

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a white collar profession, people with white collar professions.

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Is that something that you have to fight against?

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Well, I think because there is the money grab bias.

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There is that thought that, and this was really uh sort of promoted by so-called tort

reform in the 80s and the 90s.

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We heard a lot more about it then.

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It's more subtle now, but the idea is that personal injury lawsuits are a money grab and

they are people trying to get something for nothing, trying to get rich off of their

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misfortune.

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m you know, faking, exaggerating, because here's their, you know, here's their chance.

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So if you have a blue collar worker, um someone who has struggled financially, then you

know, there's that motive, right?

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They, it's sort of promoted by the defense that that motive exists more prominently in

someone like that than in somebody who is really wealthy.

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I was just going to say, kind of rolls into that idea of uh thinking about blue collar

people having more personal responsibility or less deserving uh because of where they are

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in earnings versus a white collar person and their level of deservingness or personal

responsibility that plays into the juror's mind.

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Well, I think you're right.

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uh And I also think that these biases can exist in people of all walks of life.

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um So you can have these biases among blue collar workers.

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In fact, it's quite common where you have in my recent trial, we had a self-employed

electrician who was injured on a job.

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His hands were on the tools when they exploded.

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so a big uh

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bias that we had to overcome was, well, he was the only electrician there and it must have

been his fault or some aspect of this must have been his fault.

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And in our jury research, we learned that self-employed people who were just scraping by

with their businesses were most critical of him.

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And part of that is because they don't want to believe that this could ever happen to

them.

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they believe that they're always safe and they take all the right precautions.

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And so if he got injured, he mustn't have been taking all the right precautions.

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And yet there were people who were working in big corporations earning sizable salaries

and their oh jury service was being paid for, or they weren't losing any money serving on

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the jury.

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They were more sympathetic because they were used to the idea that there are

organizational divisions that

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take care of safety and they rely on that and they want, they believe that people should

be able to rely on that.

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So those people ended up actually being better for us as jurors than people who were in

the same socioeconomic status as my client.

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We actually got to work with you a little bit on the prep for that case.

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And I remember when you first discussed that case with us and it was in a group setting

and we heard the basic facts of the case.

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I remember going, God, this is a really tough case.

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don't know how Susie's gonna get to where she wants to go.

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And I remember it was that same bias in me of that personal responsibility that's been

drilled into us.

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You mentioned it before, you know, it's the hot coffee in the lap thing from the eighties

that's been drilled into us systematically for the last three decades about personal

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responsibility.

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And like you said, the money grab.

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So I was even thinking about where, you know, where we were at that moment until we

learned more about the case and my thoughts evolved on it very quickly.

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And I understood where are you gonna go with that case?

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But it's amazing how you can even

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recognize those biases in yourself, even when you're open-minded and, you know, I was in

service of you, of course.

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So it's just interesting.

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I don't know if there was a question, but I just find it interesting that on even thinking

about the way I thought about that case in the beginning to where I evolved to, uh it's, I

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think, indicative of, you know, our society in America.

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Well, you make a very good point.

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In fact, there are lawyers who, when they're given the latitude in jury selection in voir

dire, they will actually be a little bit confessional like that and talk about how, well,

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when this first case first came to me, you know, these are the biases that I, I surprised

myself that I had them, that I entertained these thoughts.

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And it was only when I saw the facts that I overcame them.

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Now, you're not allowed to do that in jury selection, but you know, uh

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we push the envelope where we can.

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And I've never seen it done, but I've heard from lawyers who have done this.

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And they do it in order to get the jury members to feel comfortable to fess up themselves

to their own biases and to get that dialogue going.

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And it can be very effective.

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But you're right.

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We all have biases.

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And that's one thing that we try in various ways to communicate to the jury during voir

dire to make them

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feel comfortable to own up to theirs and then we're able to say to them, you know, so does

this mean that maybe another case would be better for you that you couldn't be entirely

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impartial in deciding this case?

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And that's okay if that's true.

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And if he says, yeah, I can't be entirely impartial, then under the code, he must be

dismissed for cause, he or she, or they.

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What about in terms of biases even potentially with, you know, injuries that are more

visible or invisible and subjective, like pain or trauma, MTBI's, especially when those

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injuries, you know, don't come with maybe dramatic imaging or overt symptoms.

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Have you ever tried a case with that or how would you approach that particular biases?

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Yeah, juries are very interested in evidence and documentary evidence.

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And so it's always better to have um radiographic imaging, medical imaging, particularly

the type that is widely accepted.

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That's the gold standard, CTs, MRIs.

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There's lots of other types of imaging available now that plaintiff's lawyers are using,

but they're also under attack by defendant doctors who say, that's just experimental and

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it's not dispositive.

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and so forth.

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um So it is always better to get the documentation.

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But bottom line, you really need to tell a story, whether the damages are visible or not.

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You need to tell a story of before and after.

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And you do that um through your client and through their treating physicians.

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uh Ideally, they're going to be very supportive and also um

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good at testifying and explaining the medicine.

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But you most importantly do it through other people, what we call before and after

witnesses.

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And it could be family members and even better if they are people, I mean, I've heard

people bringing in the Starbucks barista who saw the plaintiff every morning until the

206

00:18:58,295 --> 00:19:02,166

accident and then was able to testify to the change that

207

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he or she saw in them.

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00:19:05,518 --> 00:19:12,891

I wanna go back to discussing the idea of deserving this, because I think there is a place

to that.

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I don't think it's all like just uh a bad thing, because it can help shape your story as

well when you're thinking about your client, your plaintiff, uh and their journey with

210

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this, whatever the terrible uh incident was.

211

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I think there's a place of showing that they are deserving this.

212

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I think if you ignore that, that seems like it would be a detriment as well.

213

00:19:39,263 --> 00:19:47,467

Susie, how do you go about thinking about your clients and not just the before and after,

but thinking of them.

214

00:19:47,467 --> 00:19:50,749

we talk, you hear this all the time about the hero's journey.

215

00:19:50,749 --> 00:19:58,613

It's been very popular, but I mean, geez, any superhero movie, any big blockbuster, it has

the hero's journey.

216

00:19:58,613 --> 00:20:00,254

It's ingrained in us.

217

00:20:00,695 --> 00:20:13,038

How do you go about making it so your client seems gets over that, deserving this

question, and uh you can win over the jury on that matter?

218

00:20:13,038 --> 00:20:24,191

That's such a great question and thank you for bringing up the hero's journey because you

talked about it in some of the workshops that we did together when I was working up this

219

00:20:24,191 --> 00:20:25,581

particular case.

220

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And I think about it now with every plaintiff.

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What is my client's journey that will inspire my jury to want to join and support?

222

00:20:38,445 --> 00:20:43,006

so that's really where the inspiration for the award comes from.

223

00:20:43,182 --> 00:20:46,782

And, you know, it's going to be different in every case.

224

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Sometimes it's just going to be as simple as your client did not deserve to have this

happen to them and that it's a tremendous injustice.

225

00:20:58,522 --> 00:21:11,202

And so what you inspire the jury to do is to support your clients through, you know, in a

supplementary way because you present your client as somebody who has really worked hard

226

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to overcome.

227

00:21:12,524 --> 00:21:19,476

this terrible misfortune that was so needlessly uh thrust upon him, her, or them.

228

00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:21,776

So um it could be that simple.

229

00:21:21,776 --> 00:21:26,208

um In our case, we were very fortunate to have a real hero.

230

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I mean, this man had a rough upbringing.

231

00:21:30,439 --> 00:21:35,640

um was a single, he grew up in a home of a single mom.

232

00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,461

uh He was the eldest boy.

233

00:21:38,461 --> 00:21:42,382

He assumed the role of dad to his younger siblings.

234

00:21:42,382 --> 00:21:45,922

He was, and they lived in the projects in San Francisco.

235

00:21:45,922 --> 00:21:53,102

And his, the best witness we had was someone he met through Big Brothers of America.

236

00:21:53,442 --> 00:21:56,922

And this man knew him when he was 13.

237

00:21:57,042 --> 00:22:01,922

This man had just come back from fighting in Vietnam, had just graduated from law school.

238

00:22:01,922 --> 00:22:04,982

They had been friends for 50 years.

239

00:22:04,982 --> 00:22:08,862

And he, and as he put it, brothers.

240

00:22:09,142 --> 00:22:12,226

And so through this man,

241

00:22:12,226 --> 00:22:29,414

who was incredibly eloquent, I was able to really tell the jury about my client's hero's

journey m and where he had reached um this hardworking person with a really noble uh

242

00:22:29,414 --> 00:22:34,416

calling to be an electrician, to support his family, and to provide illumination to

people.

243

00:22:34,416 --> 00:22:37,457

um And it was what a great service.

244

00:22:37,457 --> 00:22:40,290

And this man was able to really um

245

00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:41,822

bring that whole story out.

246

00:22:41,822 --> 00:22:46,578

So we were lucky, but I believe that story exists with everyone.

247

00:22:46,578 --> 00:22:53,216

And if it doesn't with a plaintiff, that's a case you want to think about whether you want

to bring it in front of a jury.

248

00:22:53,346 --> 00:22:54,537

I'm so glad that you said that.

249

00:22:54,537 --> 00:23:01,833

Yeah, I think that's, yeah, what is it that, there's also that idea that something has to

prompt you to like them, right?

250

00:23:01,833 --> 00:23:12,122

Even when we're playing villains, ah don't always want to necessarily identify with the

villain, but we have to find something in them that makes it worthwhile to play,

251

00:23:12,122 --> 00:23:20,589

worthwhile to create a three-dimensional character, someone that also potentially can have

some empathy because that is what makes a full...

252

00:23:20,589 --> 00:23:21,830

uh

253

00:23:22,616 --> 00:23:24,803

character that we want to continue to watch.

254

00:23:24,803 --> 00:23:25,642

oh

255

00:23:25,642 --> 00:23:37,142

if you really prepare your client to testify so that their real humanity comes to the

fore, you're going to inspire the jury to want to compensate them.

256

00:23:37,562 --> 00:23:39,214

lawyer has a role in that too.

257

00:23:39,214 --> 00:23:48,624

Yeah, it's like giving them the jury, the fuel to fight for your client, to take action

for them.

258

00:23:48,624 --> 00:23:51,566

You gotta inspire them.

259

00:23:51,667 --> 00:23:54,289

the way that, first of all, Mr.

260

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Perez is a fighter.

261

00:23:55,951 --> 00:23:57,092

He was a fighter.

262

00:23:57,092 --> 00:24:00,906

And so that helped so much in that particular case.

263

00:24:00,906 --> 00:24:03,498

But I love what you said, Susie.

264

00:24:03,626 --> 00:24:07,149

almost every plaintiff out there has that own version of it.

265

00:24:07,149 --> 00:24:18,178

It might be a slightly different or smaller or little smaller acts that they do to try and

live and overcome their circumstances.

266

00:24:18,779 --> 00:24:20,370

But you got to find it out.

267

00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:23,222

You got to be curious about your your client.

268

00:24:23,222 --> 00:24:32,934

It just seems like if I like what you said, if you can't if you can't connect with that

client in that way or find that that fight in them, uh it might be the

269

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It might not be them.

270

00:24:33,935 --> 00:24:38,757

It might be the lawyers vision of that that client.

271

00:24:38,858 --> 00:24:44,391

But if you can't find that then that's a that's a big problem because then you can't you

won't be inspired to fight for them.

272

00:24:44,391 --> 00:24:50,025

And if you can't be inspired to fight for them, how do you expect a jury to be inspired to

fight for them?

273

00:24:50,025 --> 00:24:51,956

Well, it's time to get into our case.

274

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So today's case is a plaintiff personal injury case, which is Susie's primary area of

focus in her practice.

275

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And since CrossLab is all about getting fresh points of view, we are so excited to hear

Sarah's thoughts on the cross examination as well.

276

00:25:07,694 --> 00:25:10,443

So let's get into the breakdown of today's test case.

277

00:25:11,086 --> 00:25:12,947

This is Lopez versus Madison.

278

00:25:12,947 --> 00:25:19,851

The case takes place in Bakersfield, California, a jurisdiction known for its more

conservative jury pools.

279

00:25:19,851 --> 00:25:26,816

The plaintiff, Gustavo Lopez, is a 43-year-old Guatemalan-born carpenter and father of

five.

280

00:25:26,816 --> 00:25:31,518

He was struck by a vehicle while walking his dog near a shopping center.

281

00:25:31,518 --> 00:25:38,062

The defendant, Hannah Madison, a local kindergarten teacher and daughter of a well-known

pastor in the area.

282

00:25:38,062 --> 00:25:42,424

turned into the parking lot entrance and collided with Gustavo.

283

00:25:43,164 --> 00:25:50,887

Gustavo suffered a head laceration, shoulder injury, and later received a diagnosis of a

mild traumatic brain injury.

284

00:25:50,887 --> 00:25:57,170

The defense initially denied liability but accepted full fault two days before trial.

285

00:25:57,170 --> 00:26:04,293

Vardir was limited by the judge, restricting attorney's ability to thoroughly screen the

jurors for potential bias.

286

00:26:04,293 --> 00:26:07,094

The jury consists of four Caucasian men,

287

00:26:07,128 --> 00:26:12,909

for Caucasian women, one Asian man, two Hispanic women, and one Hispanic man.

288

00:26:12,909 --> 00:26:17,986

The jury was instructed not to consider how any damages would be paid.

289

00:26:17,986 --> 00:26:18,726

you.

290

00:26:19,148 --> 00:26:20,759

Suzy is representing Mr.

291

00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:32,864

Lopez and will conduct a cross-examination of Hannah Madison, played by Sarah, with the

goal of minimizing the impact of potential jury bias on the verdict and damages award.

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But before we dive into the cross-examination, let's take a quick break.

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00:26:38,326 --> 00:26:42,828

And we wanna talk about, really quickly, our partners at LawPods.

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Lawyers think that LawPods are just the company that produces the TLU and trial lawyer

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00:26:48,814 --> 00:26:59,714

podcast, but actually they create a lot of podcasts with lawyers just like you to help

reach non lawyers aka your potential clients.

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That's right, podcasts let your audience get to know and trust you.

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And Robert Ingalls and his team make podcasting easy.

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There's never been a better time to get this as a tool for getting your practice out there

to the public.

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And to get more info, visit LawPods, L-A-W-P-O-D-S.com.

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00:27:26,238 --> 00:27:27,648

Tell them we sent you.

302

00:27:28,809 --> 00:27:32,491

We want to tell you about what we do at Trial House.

303

00:27:32,491 --> 00:27:41,174

We help attorneys in private sessions and in coaching to help you be a better advocate for

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304

00:27:41,496 --> 00:27:52,061

We can help you in so many different ways from learning new trial skills or

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305

00:27:52,061 --> 00:27:58,910

be great advocates for themselves in depositions or in cross-examinations and trial.

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00:27:59,118 --> 00:28:04,078

The best way to reach out to us is to go to our website, trialhouse.com.

307

00:28:04,078 --> 00:28:07,858

That's H-A-U-S, trialhouse.com.

308

00:28:07,858 --> 00:28:11,538

And we've got two free resources for attorneys on there.

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00:28:11,538 --> 00:28:23,678

One to help you craft a compelling narrative for your jury and another to help you get

storytelling gold from your witnesses that's gonna help you put a wonderful case together.

310

00:28:23,678 --> 00:28:27,018

And you can schedule a 30 minute.

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00:28:27,114 --> 00:28:29,422

storytelling consultation with us.

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00:28:29,422 --> 00:28:30,072

you

313

00:28:30,072 --> 00:28:32,293

And no strings attached, no pressure.

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00:28:32,293 --> 00:28:37,997

We just wanna meet you, we wanna talk with you and learn more about your practice and a

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00:28:37,997 --> 00:28:41,450

You might actually get some really good advice at the very, very least.

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00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:45,973

ah Once again, trialhouse.com, H-A-U-S.

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00:28:45,973 --> 00:28:47,654

We hope to talk to you soon.

318

00:28:48,094 --> 00:28:49,495

Welcome back.

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00:28:49,896 --> 00:28:55,900

We're about to get into this test case and Susie, just to let you know, I crafted this.

320

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So you had to deal with bias, that is something.

321

00:28:59,416 --> 00:29:03,939

that I made sure that you had no choice but to deal with this jury bias.

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00:29:03,939 --> 00:29:04,941

So I'm excited.

323

00:29:04,941 --> 00:29:06,624

But Olivia, give us the ground rules.

324

00:29:06,624 --> 00:29:08,974

So we are gonna do about 15 minutes today.

325

00:29:08,974 --> 00:29:12,997

If it's getting juicy, might let you go a little bit longer since it's just you.

326

00:29:12,997 --> 00:29:19,101

But in the interest of time, you can confirm any potential admissions that you might've

already covered with this witness.

327

00:29:19,101 --> 00:29:22,312

So Susie, is there anything you want us to know ahead of time?

328

00:29:23,670 --> 00:29:33,813

The only thing I would say is that when we get these fact patterns, there may be little

gaps in really fine pieces of evidence.

329

00:29:34,113 --> 00:29:39,034

when we do the constructive cross, we want to make sure that we are speaking in specifics.

330

00:29:39,034 --> 00:29:46,556

So I may throw out some specifics that Sarah hasn't seen in the fact pattern, and she can

respond any way she wants.

331

00:29:46,556 --> 00:29:51,758

She can say, she can, you know, admit that that's what she said or that that was the case.

332

00:29:51,758 --> 00:29:53,100

Or she can tell me that

333

00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:56,040

You know, I'm all wet and I'll just handle it.

334

00:29:56,718 --> 00:29:57,118

Awesome.

335

00:29:57,118 --> 00:29:58,559

Yes, definitely.

336

00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:05,903

And I think that's great too, because that's how we do it in uh cross club and any of the

other programs that we do.

337

00:30:05,903 --> 00:30:13,877

We purposely don't give you all the information as the attorney, because yeah, there are

potentially some specifics, but there's also maybe some angles that you might not have

338

00:30:13,877 --> 00:30:19,030

realized that you can take when you can be a little bit more creative with some of those

facts.

339

00:30:19,544 --> 00:30:25,374

Sarah, without giving anything away about how you're gonna be playing the witness, what

stood out to you about this character?

340

00:30:26,028 --> 00:30:35,512

I think more than anything, I thought a lot about the way that I could connect to her,

which is through the fact that she is young.

341

00:30:35,512 --> 00:30:41,264

She has likely never been in a courtroom or on a witness stand before, um which I have not

either.

342

00:30:41,264 --> 00:30:43,956

um So definitely that.

343

00:30:43,956 --> 00:30:54,562

And I think also really focusing on what her life must be like outside of this and how

this has shifted her life and the way that she views.

344

00:30:54,562 --> 00:30:57,243

herself and her family as well.

345

00:30:57,964 --> 00:30:58,955

Fantastic.

346

00:30:58,955 --> 00:31:00,646

Yes, absolutely.

347

00:31:00,646 --> 00:31:03,157

So we are going to go ahead and get started.

348

00:31:03,157 --> 00:31:06,169

Steve is going to put some time on the clock.

349

00:31:06,169 --> 00:31:08,180

Suzy, the witness is yours.

350

00:31:08,544 --> 00:31:09,288

Thank you.

351

00:31:09,288 --> 00:31:10,542

Thank you, Your Honor.

352

00:31:10,542 --> 00:31:11,478

You're welcome.

353

00:31:12,802 --> 00:31:13,515

Good morning, Ms.

354

00:31:13,515 --> 00:31:14,606

Madison.

355

00:31:15,773 --> 00:31:16,596

May I call you Ms.

356

00:31:16,596 --> 00:31:17,578

Madison?

357

00:31:17,677 --> 00:31:18,432

Yes.

358

00:31:19,810 --> 00:31:20,211

So, Ms.

359

00:31:20,211 --> 00:31:27,039

Madison, my name is Suzy Njejian, and I represent Gustavo Lopez and his family in this

case.

360

00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:28,702

I understand that.

361

00:31:28,706 --> 00:31:29,531

Yes.

362

00:31:31,092 --> 00:31:42,020

We're going to talk a little bit about some of the testimony that we just heard you give

on direct examination.

363

00:31:42,161 --> 00:31:45,726

You were on your way to Redwood Commons Shopping Center.

364

00:31:46,188 --> 00:31:46,981

Yes.

365

00:31:48,532 --> 00:31:50,365

You were going to do some shopping?

366

00:31:50,499 --> 00:31:51,309

Yes.

367

00:31:52,054 --> 00:31:54,731

You've been to Redwood Commons before.

368

00:31:55,052 --> 00:31:55,887

Yes.

369

00:31:56,462 --> 00:31:58,888

In fact, you've been there many times before,

370

00:31:59,213 --> 00:32:00,414

Yes, I have.

371

00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:02,290

you

372

00:32:02,290 --> 00:32:05,877

been to that shopping center in the late afternoon.

373

00:32:06,563 --> 00:32:07,373

Yes.

374

00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:14,368

So you're driving your Honda Civic patch back down Cypress Avenue.

375

00:32:14,658 --> 00:32:15,465

Yes.

376

00:32:16,172 --> 00:32:18,121

You're driving towards the sun.

377

00:32:18,658 --> 00:32:19,465

Yes.

378

00:32:20,199 --> 00:32:24,389

and the shopping mall parking entrance is over to your right.

379

00:32:26,836 --> 00:32:31,412

And you had entered through this entrance before, right?

380

00:32:31,565 --> 00:32:32,402

Yes.

381

00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:36,676

and you've made a right turn into this entrance before.

382

00:32:37,863 --> 00:32:39,346

Many times, in fact.

383

00:32:39,629 --> 00:32:40,429

Yes.

384

00:32:41,238 --> 00:32:46,363

And as you're going down Cypress Avenue, the sun is in your eyes.

385

00:32:47,384 --> 00:32:49,271

That's what you testify to.

386

00:32:49,271 --> 00:32:50,078

Yes.

387

00:32:50,926 --> 00:32:54,376

And your vision is impaired.

388

00:32:55,532 --> 00:32:56,667

A little yes.

389

00:32:57,612 --> 00:33:07,378

And you know, as you're going down Cyprus, that at this particular vehicle entrance,

there's pedestrians sometimes cross.

390

00:33:07,671 --> 00:33:08,478

Yes.

391

00:33:09,430 --> 00:33:15,668

Maybe you'd crossed that vehicle entrance yourself on foot at some point before.

392

00:33:16,419 --> 00:33:17,229

Yes.

393

00:33:18,155 --> 00:33:29,108

And you knew on the day of this incident as you're going down Cypress Avenue that the sun

was in your eyes as you making this right turn.

394

00:33:29,474 --> 00:33:30,281

Yes.

395

00:33:33,184 --> 00:33:36,980

You didn't stop your vehicle before turning right, did you?

396

00:33:39,434 --> 00:33:47,284

In fact, you were turning um into the pedestrian crossing at 10 to 15 miles per hour.

397

00:33:48,045 --> 00:33:48,845

Yes.

398

00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,670

We know of course what happened then.

399

00:33:57,538 --> 00:33:58,324

Yes.

400

00:33:59,672 --> 00:34:04,491

There was a thud at the right front of your car.

401

00:34:06,723 --> 00:34:07,533

Yes.

402

00:34:07,777 --> 00:34:08,937

You felt it.

403

00:34:10,871 --> 00:34:12,118

Yeah, I did.

404

00:34:12,118 --> 00:34:13,350

And you heard it.

405

00:34:14,933 --> 00:34:15,737

Yes.

406

00:34:16,192 --> 00:34:17,491

It startled you.

407

00:34:18,508 --> 00:34:19,321

Yes.

408

00:34:21,439 --> 00:34:25,704

You saw the body of Gustavo Lopez become airborne.

409

00:34:28,034 --> 00:34:28,837

Yes.

410

00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:33,896

you saw his body impact your windshield.

411

00:34:36,140 --> 00:34:37,204

Yes, I did.

412

00:34:38,146 --> 00:34:39,731

and the hood of your car.

413

00:34:42,093 --> 00:34:42,910

Yes.

414

00:34:44,267 --> 00:34:47,240

and you saw his body flung to the ground.

415

00:34:49,581 --> 00:34:50,942

Yes, I did.

416

00:34:53,836 --> 00:35:02,412

And as your car was moving, you actually felt the right front tire roll up and over

something hard.

417

00:35:03,186 --> 00:35:04,384

Do remember that?

418

00:35:06,060 --> 00:35:07,294

Yes, I do.

419

00:35:07,530 --> 00:35:08,430

Sorry.

420

00:35:09,406 --> 00:35:11,826

I'm sorry, I cut you off.

421

00:35:11,985 --> 00:35:13,821

It's just difficult to talk about.

422

00:35:14,786 --> 00:35:16,329

Yeah, I understand.

423

00:35:16,731 --> 00:35:22,826

But for purposes of the case, need to get your facts for the jury.

424

00:35:27,084 --> 00:35:29,161

Your car jerked up and down.

425

00:35:31,246 --> 00:35:31,439

Right?

426

00:35:31,439 --> 00:35:32,150

Yes.

427

00:35:33,740 --> 00:35:35,741

like you'd hit a rock or something.

428

00:35:37,986 --> 00:35:38,771

Yes.

429

00:35:39,768 --> 00:35:40,756

Turns out that was Mr.

430

00:35:40,756 --> 00:35:42,184

Lopez's dog.

431

00:35:44,684 --> 00:35:45,803

Yes, it was.

432

00:35:47,212 --> 00:35:48,165

you would run over Mr.

433

00:35:48,165 --> 00:35:49,415

Lopez's doll.

434

00:35:51,533 --> 00:35:52,329

Yes.

435

00:35:54,552 --> 00:35:56,195

So you stopped your car.

436

00:35:57,836 --> 00:35:58,708

Yes.

437

00:36:00,467 --> 00:36:01,348

Yes.

438

00:36:02,348 --> 00:36:02,961

You saw Mr.

439

00:36:02,961 --> 00:36:04,525

Lopez on the ground?

440

00:36:05,378 --> 00:36:06,181

Yes.

441

00:36:07,534 --> 00:36:09,597

He had a gash on his forehead.

442

00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:12,334

Yes.

443

00:36:13,762 --> 00:36:16,684

He was holding his dog, Tonky, in his arms.

444

00:36:17,805 --> 00:36:18,642

Yes.

445

00:36:20,642 --> 00:36:22,184

The dog wasn't moving.

446

00:36:27,768 --> 00:36:29,491

but it was making some sound.

447

00:36:33,495 --> 00:36:34,302

Yes.

448

00:36:36,620 --> 00:36:39,211

and you saw blood on the dog's fur.

449

00:36:41,346 --> 00:36:42,494

Yes, I did.

450

00:36:45,784 --> 00:36:49,215

So let's go to when the paramedics came.

451

00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,777

You saw the paramedics arrive?

452

00:36:53,634 --> 00:36:54,419

Yes.

453

00:36:55,916 --> 00:36:57,599

And they began tending to Mr.

454

00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:00,704

Lopez's forehead to the gash there.

455

00:37:01,324 --> 00:37:02,847

Yes, I believe so.

456

00:37:04,844 --> 00:37:05,297

and Mr.

457

00:37:05,297 --> 00:37:08,169

Lopez continued to cradle his dog.

458

00:37:10,317 --> 00:37:11,134

Yes.

459

00:37:13,218 --> 00:37:15,313

You testified that you heard Mr.

460

00:37:15,313 --> 00:37:19,673

Lopez say that he didn't need an ambulance.

461

00:37:21,228 --> 00:37:22,101

Yes.

462

00:37:23,378 --> 00:37:24,260

Yes.

463

00:37:26,431 --> 00:37:31,348

And you heard him say something like, I'm okay or something like that.

464

00:37:31,565 --> 00:37:32,382

Yes.

465

00:37:34,092 --> 00:37:34,474

and Mr.

466

00:37:34,474 --> 00:37:36,459

Lopez stayed at the scene.

467

00:37:37,516 --> 00:37:38,368

Yes.

468

00:37:39,886 --> 00:37:40,936

Yes.

469

00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,459

And then the family came and took Mr.

470

00:37:45,459 --> 00:37:48,136

Lopez and Tonke away from the scene.

471

00:37:48,867 --> 00:37:49,677

Yes.

472

00:37:52,896 --> 00:37:54,663

Now, you heard Mr.

473

00:37:54,663 --> 00:37:57,461

Lopez's testimony in this trial.

474

00:37:58,658 --> 00:37:59,828

Yes, I did.

475

00:38:01,430 --> 00:38:08,718

He's testified that he experienced disabilities since he was struck on that day.

476

00:38:10,092 --> 00:38:11,626

Yes, that's what he said.

477

00:38:13,206 --> 00:38:22,310

He testified that on the day he was struck at Redwood Commons, his family took him to the

ER, to the emergency room.

478

00:38:23,384 --> 00:38:24,823

That's why he said yes.

479

00:38:26,188 --> 00:38:30,913

and he testified over the care he received over the subsequent months.

480

00:38:31,821 --> 00:38:32,617

Yes.

481

00:38:32,661 --> 00:38:34,025

up until today.

482

00:38:35,053 --> 00:38:35,853

Yes.

483

00:38:37,139 --> 00:38:39,445

And he's seen orthopedists.

484

00:38:41,869 --> 00:38:42,686

Yes.

485

00:38:43,054 --> 00:38:44,426

chiropractor.

486

00:38:45,474 --> 00:38:46,281

Yes.

487

00:38:46,658 --> 00:38:48,214

pain management.

488

00:38:48,845 --> 00:38:49,662

Yes.

489

00:38:51,212 --> 00:38:56,476

He's been diagnosed with bulging discs in his neck and in his lower back.

490

00:38:57,666 --> 00:38:59,339

Yes, that's what he said.

491

00:39:01,696 --> 00:39:05,547

And he testified that he was offered a spinal fusion.

492

00:39:07,064 --> 00:39:07,878

Yes.

493

00:39:09,108 --> 00:39:13,996

and a surgery to repair his rotator cuff in his shoulder.

494

00:39:14,829 --> 00:39:15,646

Yes.

495

00:39:19,621 --> 00:39:22,228

and he had a severe sprain in his knee as well.

496

00:39:22,228 --> 00:39:23,369

Remember that?

497

00:39:24,064 --> 00:39:25,804

I remember him saying that, yes.

498

00:39:27,916 --> 00:39:28,973

And you know that Mr.

499

00:39:28,973 --> 00:39:31,475

Lopez is a carpenter, right?

500

00:39:31,981 --> 00:39:32,781

Yes.

501

00:39:33,634 --> 00:39:39,934

that he used to work 50 hour weeks before he was injured in this collision.

502

00:39:40,942 --> 00:39:42,351

That's what he said, yes.

503

00:39:44,128 --> 00:39:52,850

and he's testified that now he has to turn down jobs because oh his strength and abilities

haven't been restored.

504

00:39:54,306 --> 00:39:55,624

where he said yes.

505

00:39:58,082 --> 00:39:59,315

And you also heard Mr.

506

00:39:59,315 --> 00:40:06,924

Lopez talk about ah cognitive impairments that he's experienced.

507

00:40:06,924 --> 00:40:08,126

Do remember that?

508

00:40:08,620 --> 00:40:10,398

Yes, I remember him saying that.

509

00:40:12,130 --> 00:40:14,447

He can't remember things that he knows.

510

00:40:16,142 --> 00:40:17,760

That's why he said yes.

511

00:40:18,690 --> 00:40:20,991

like he's blanked on his own phone number.

512

00:40:22,488 --> 00:40:23,699

That's what he said.

513

00:40:25,098 --> 00:40:31,596

And we heard from his family that he's had these unpredictable changes in mood.

514

00:40:32,823 --> 00:40:33,672

Yes.

515

00:40:34,594 --> 00:40:39,930

He gets irritable over little things.

516

00:40:41,218 --> 00:40:41,524

Yes.

517

00:40:41,524 --> 00:40:42,662

oh

518

00:40:44,022 --> 00:40:56,196

Now you personally, just you, not your attorneys or the experts your attorneys have hired,

you personally do not have any evidence to contradict anything Mr.

519

00:40:56,196 --> 00:41:00,682

Lopez has said about his health since this accident.

520

00:41:00,682 --> 00:41:01,502

True?

521

00:41:02,008 --> 00:41:04,524

That's correct, I'm not a doctor, so.

522

00:41:05,974 --> 00:41:09,249

And obviously you haven't been to any of his medical appointments.

523

00:41:09,249 --> 00:41:10,083

No.

524

00:41:10,097 --> 00:41:10,878

No.

525

00:41:11,968 --> 00:41:18,803

In fact, except for seeing him at this trial, you've not seen him at all since the

collision.

526

00:41:18,803 --> 00:41:19,614

True.

527

00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:20,810

That is correct.

528

00:41:25,570 --> 00:41:32,102

back to the scene at some point at the scene you called your dad or texted him

529

00:41:32,589 --> 00:41:33,929

Yeah, I called him.

530

00:41:35,628 --> 00:41:39,324

And you called him because, well, something bad had happened.

531

00:41:40,118 --> 00:41:42,079

Yeah, he's the first person I call.

532

00:41:43,766 --> 00:41:45,341

and you needed his help.

533

00:41:45,890 --> 00:41:46,698

Yes.

534

00:41:48,110 --> 00:41:49,662

because you'd hit a person.

535

00:41:51,118 --> 00:41:51,928

Yes.

536

00:41:52,898 --> 00:41:55,332

you'd hit a person's dog.

537

00:41:57,261 --> 00:41:58,078

Yes.

538

00:42:00,502 --> 00:42:07,336

And the impact had been hard enough to damage the windshield and hood of your Honda.

539

00:42:08,270 --> 00:42:09,159

Correct.

540

00:42:11,408 --> 00:42:14,454

So your dad is a pastor, isn't he?

541

00:42:14,988 --> 00:42:16,504

Yes, he is.

542

00:42:17,332 --> 00:42:20,958

at one of the largest congregations in Bakersfield.

543

00:42:21,378 --> 00:42:22,207

Yes.

544

00:42:24,295 --> 00:42:28,426

You are active in your dad's church as well, right?

545

00:42:28,620 --> 00:42:30,187

Yeah, very much so.

546

00:42:30,818 --> 00:42:32,423

We teach kindergarten there.

547

00:42:32,450 --> 00:42:33,274

Yes.

548

00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,197

So you think a lot of your dad?

549

00:42:38,892 --> 00:42:39,659

Yeah, I do.

550

00:42:39,659 --> 00:42:41,845

He's the best man I know.

551

00:42:43,318 --> 00:42:45,151

and he must think a lot of you.

552

00:42:46,477 --> 00:42:47,461

I hope so.

553

00:42:49,614 --> 00:42:53,940

So when your father arrived at the scene, the paramedics were still there?

554

00:42:54,983 --> 00:42:55,484

And Mr.

555

00:42:55,484 --> 00:42:57,066

Lopez was still there?

556

00:42:57,517 --> 00:42:58,334

Yes.

557

00:42:59,848 --> 00:43:04,700

And you saw your father speak with the police officers.

558

00:43:06,198 --> 00:43:07,062

Yes.

559

00:43:08,236 --> 00:43:11,878

He talked to them for about half an hour to 45 minutes.

560

00:43:13,620 --> 00:43:18,721

I can't tell you exactly how long it was, but he talked to them for a little bit, yes.

561

00:43:20,204 --> 00:43:23,027

And you didn't see him ever approach Mr.

562

00:43:23,027 --> 00:43:24,177

Lopez?

563

00:43:24,298 --> 00:43:28,071

Did You didn't ask him to speak to Mr.

564

00:43:28,071 --> 00:43:29,102

Lopez?

565

00:43:32,130 --> 00:43:34,579

and then you and your family left the scene together.

566

00:43:34,818 --> 00:43:35,624

Yes.

567

00:43:40,428 --> 00:43:40,679

Ms.

568

00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:45,354

Madison, you've accepted responsibility for this collision, true?

569

00:43:46,008 --> 00:43:48,863

Yes, and I'm very, very sorry that it happened.

570

00:43:50,030 --> 00:43:56,800

I'm sure you are and you know that it's the right thing to accept responsibility for this

collision.

571

00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:57,880

Yes.

572

00:43:59,318 --> 00:44:03,530

And this collision happened on September 23rd, 2023.

573

00:44:04,141 --> 00:44:04,941

Yes.

574

00:44:05,570 --> 00:44:06,962

two and a half years ago.

575

00:44:07,542 --> 00:44:08,346

Yes.

576

00:44:10,412 --> 00:44:15,708

And you decided to admit fault only two days before this trial began.

577

00:44:15,708 --> 00:44:17,502

Isn't that right?

578

00:44:18,637 --> 00:44:19,437

Yes.

579

00:44:21,192 --> 00:44:28,574

Before that, you denied any responsibility for this accident.

580

00:44:30,573 --> 00:44:31,395

Yes.

581

00:44:33,186 --> 00:44:42,300

And now that we have a jury, you accept that this accident and the damages caused were all

your fault.

582

00:44:45,098 --> 00:44:47,696

Yes, within the last couple of days, yes.

583

00:44:48,663 --> 00:44:50,356

Thank you, that's all I have.

584

00:44:53,326 --> 00:44:54,477

I don't know if I went long enough.

585

00:44:54,477 --> 00:44:55,746

Did I go long enough?

586

00:44:55,746 --> 00:44:56,647

That was perfect.

587

00:44:56,647 --> 00:44:59,008

It was like just 14 minutes.

588

00:44:59,169 --> 00:44:59,666

dear.

589

00:44:59,666 --> 00:45:01,390

I don't think you could go any longer.

590

00:45:01,390 --> 00:45:11,817

It be a murder and then we'd have another case on our hands because of the murder that you

caused to this poor witness.

591

00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,317

You got a lot accomplished in 14 minutes.

592

00:45:16,317 --> 00:45:19,343

was a little bit of everything.

593

00:45:19,343 --> 00:45:21,206

How did that feel though to you?

594

00:45:21,206 --> 00:45:22,970

We'll go to you first, Suzy.

595

00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:25,513

Did you accomplish what you wanted to accomplish?

596

00:45:25,922 --> 00:45:34,527

Well, I did, but what was scaring me was, she's angelic and sympathetic and the jury's

gonna be feeling sorry for her.

597

00:45:34,527 --> 00:45:47,474

And so I had to show her, you know, that I respected her humanity, m that she, I think

she's a good person and her dad's a good person and they love each other very much.

598

00:45:47,474 --> 00:45:51,516

I wanted to get that in there um to humanize myself.

599

00:45:51,516 --> 00:45:55,412

um I think if I did it again,

600

00:45:55,412 --> 00:46:08,416

I might have, I don't know, this is tough because, you know, there are lawyers who would

um be, uh you know, more, I don't know, I guess.

601

00:46:10,070 --> 00:46:11,911

Let me think about this a minute.

602

00:46:12,471 --> 00:46:17,853

I've heard lawyers talk about the witness gets up and he looks like my teenage son.

603

00:46:17,953 --> 00:46:27,797

And I was all ready to get him to admit all this stuff, but then that's not what I ended

up doing because I didn't think it was going to help me.

604

00:46:28,838 --> 00:46:38,764

But even before I knew what kind of a witness Sarah would be, whether she would be a

crying witness or you know, or

605

00:46:38,764 --> 00:46:47,541

a real docile witness as she was, I decided that I was going to focus on um humanizing Mr.

606

00:46:47,541 --> 00:46:49,483

Lopez as much as possible.

607

00:46:49,703 --> 00:46:52,766

And the best way to do that was to really talk about his dog.

608

00:46:52,766 --> 00:46:59,211

um Because people understand the love of a dog.

609

00:46:59,492 --> 00:47:03,434

And that just puts us all on the same level.

610

00:47:03,855 --> 00:47:07,318

We see past ethnicity and demographics

611

00:47:07,318 --> 00:47:12,164

when we see a person holding his dog, his bleeding dog.

612

00:47:12,205 --> 00:47:16,024

So that's the approach that I took.

613

00:47:16,024 --> 00:47:16,736

Yeah.

614

00:47:16,736 --> 00:47:24,291

Did you have any expectation that she might be something other than Angelic, ah what

potentially is on the page?

615

00:47:24,291 --> 00:47:27,998

Like, did you have any suspicion that she might be other than that?

616

00:47:28,430 --> 00:47:38,694

um Well, she could have been really sort of um assertive um and defensive.

617

00:47:39,675 --> 00:47:45,437

She could have betrayed um maybe some bias against Mr.

618

00:47:45,437 --> 00:47:50,839

Lopez that he's not a member of their church um and therefore he is not going to heaven.

619

00:47:50,839 --> 00:47:56,481

um You know, sometimes you will get somebody like that who betrays that a little bit.

620

00:47:56,481 --> 00:47:58,342

um

621

00:47:58,450 --> 00:48:06,173

know, kindergarten teacher, was actually expecting her to be as um she did portray

herself.

622

00:48:06,173 --> 00:48:21,628

Just really likable, really cute, um really remorseful, and following her lawyer's advice

not to get defensive, not to argue with me, which is what her lawyer would have told her

623

00:48:21,628 --> 00:48:22,378

to do.

624

00:48:22,666 --> 00:48:34,470

Here's what I noticed though that you did do, and I don't know if this was purposeful or

not, but I could, in your first few questions, um I did notice the, uh well, I would say

625

00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:44,623

in the acting world was your intention was to dip your toe in the water to see how is this

witness going to react and how do I adjust?

626

00:48:44,623 --> 00:48:48,376

And I noticed you take that approach with your first.

627

00:48:48,376 --> 00:48:49,497

couple of questions.

628

00:48:49,497 --> 00:48:59,653

And what I saw then in that case that it buys you a little bit of time, gives you a moment

for both of you even, because she's never been on the stand, to acclimate to whatever

629

00:48:59,653 --> 00:49:01,714

water you are stepping into.

630

00:49:01,714 --> 00:49:03,095

And that's what I saw.

631

00:49:03,095 --> 00:49:11,360

I don't know if it was purposeful in that way, but that's what I could see you doing to

kind of have this moment of adjustment for yourself to do that.

632

00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,222

Is that something that you intended or just something that I saw, Suzy?

633

00:49:16,494 --> 00:49:18,656

unconscious, I certainly was sizing her up.

634

00:49:18,656 --> 00:49:26,683

um I wanted to get an answer from her so that I could see where she, you know, basically,

what is her tone?

635

00:49:26,683 --> 00:49:28,825

What is her approach going to be in this?

636

00:49:28,825 --> 00:49:32,508

So yeah, but that doesn't mean that I knew where she was going to go.

637

00:49:32,508 --> 00:49:40,434

There were several times where I thought she might start crying and I'm going to have to

do something about that.

638

00:49:40,722 --> 00:49:46,267

into the crying part because I saw there was real emotion there and Sarah did a great job

with that.

639

00:49:46,267 --> 00:49:49,449

um And I can't wait to get your thoughts on that.

640

00:49:49,690 --> 00:50:06,264

But for me, what I was seeing is because of the tone that you held, it was tough for her

to cry because you were so smooth and you weren't attacking.

641

00:50:06,264 --> 00:50:09,210

There was no attacking in your tone.

642

00:50:09,210 --> 00:50:21,851

it was just so factual ah that even when uh and I'd love to I want to kick it to Sarah

next but it seemed like even when you went by that step by step when you're painting the

643

00:50:21,851 --> 00:50:26,905

picture so effectively about the scene of the accident and you went back again.

644

00:50:26,905 --> 00:50:37,474

ah It was hard for her to you know because I don't you know I don't think she was being

attacked so it's hard to.

645

00:50:37,602 --> 00:50:49,536

get to that crying place if you're not, you know, if somebody's not going after you and

accusing you and, uh you know, there was, sometimes when we're playing these parts.

646

00:50:51,106 --> 00:50:56,633

Tears can help us escape somewhere that's uncomfortable and doesn't, where we don't wanna

be.

647

00:50:56,633 --> 00:51:03,232

But I think you kept it just uncomfortable enough, uncomfortable enough to where she

couldn't go to that place.

648

00:51:03,232 --> 00:51:04,934

But Sarah, what did you feel?

649

00:51:04,934 --> 00:51:06,966

How did you feel about the cross?

650

00:51:08,970 --> 00:51:10,051

It was wild.

651

00:51:10,051 --> 00:51:14,693

think I that's the perfect way to describe it, Steve.

652

00:51:14,693 --> 00:51:19,495

I feel like I was way more comfortable than I was expecting to be.

653

00:51:19,710 --> 00:51:32,750

And Susie, the way that you spoke to me was so kind that I was like, okay, I just have to

listen to her and answer her questions and I can get through this and then it'll be done.

654

00:51:32,750 --> 00:51:35,322

And that was very much.

655

00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:45,513

what I was feeling and there wasn't really anything that you were giving me that I felt

like I had the right to fight you on.

656

00:51:45,513 --> 00:51:50,644

I'm so glad that you said that because that's what we tell attorneys all the time and what

we work with our clients on.

657

00:51:50,644 --> 00:51:59,016

When you are doing it, doing it fact by fact like that takes so much of the fear off of us

that it does put us at ease.

658

00:51:59,016 --> 00:52:05,318

And so that is to your advantage, Suzy, and any attorney's advantage to really take it

factually, take all of the

659

00:52:05,398 --> 00:52:07,950

conclusions out of it and do it step by step.

660

00:52:07,950 --> 00:52:17,909

That's another thing where if things are so step by step like you did it, Suzy, even

starting off with the fact that she's done this before, she's gone down that street

661

00:52:17,909 --> 00:52:20,872

before, she's made a right turn there before.

662

00:52:20,872 --> 00:52:25,926

All of those things, fact by fact doesn't also allow your witness to feel like, gosh, I

got to fill in a gap.

663

00:52:25,926 --> 00:52:30,890

Because you were doing it so incrementally that you were missing nothing in each of your

questions.

664

00:52:30,890 --> 00:52:32,844

So that also doing it

665

00:52:32,844 --> 00:52:37,098

That way also takes a load off of us to feel like, my gosh, I gotta, she's missing

something.

666

00:52:37,098 --> 00:52:39,600

I gotta say something more than a yes or no.

667

00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:48,047

So I loved that chapter, by the way, all the things that she has done before making this a

normal situation.

668

00:52:48,047 --> 00:52:48,717

you know what I mean?

669

00:52:48,717 --> 00:52:57,094

Like, like she would have known she's done this many times before and not being afraid to

say the sun was in your eyes.

670

00:52:57,815 --> 00:53:00,185

Like that for me, your vision was impaired.

671

00:53:00,185 --> 00:53:02,038

I don't know that every...

672

00:53:02,478 --> 00:53:09,278

From my opinion, I don't know that every attorney would own that and take that on.

673

00:53:09,278 --> 00:53:11,011

Steve's shaking his head too.

674

00:53:11,011 --> 00:53:18,762

I think that takes a lot of courage um to take that angle.

675

00:53:19,212 --> 00:53:27,082

Well, and she gave you like a great answer for you because she said a little and I was

like, I was like, is she gonna loop that?

676

00:53:27,082 --> 00:53:28,407

Is she gonna hammer her with that?

677

00:53:28,407 --> 00:53:29,765

And you're like, No, that's good.

678

00:53:29,765 --> 00:53:30,776

I'm just gonna move on.

679

00:53:30,776 --> 00:53:35,511

ah So Suzy, was that a moment where you were considering what to do with that answer?

680

00:53:35,511 --> 00:53:37,445

Or did that just kind of?

681

00:53:37,445 --> 00:53:38,744

Where were you with that?

682

00:53:38,744 --> 00:53:43,577

So I actually assumed that that was her defense, that the sun was in her eyes.

683

00:53:43,577 --> 00:53:45,358

So I thought that that was a given.

684

00:53:45,358 --> 00:53:53,543

um And so when I asked her, I really thought I was going over old ground and didn't think

I was, you know, grabbing a new admission.

685

00:53:53,543 --> 00:53:57,698

And I didn't think to loop it at all because I thought it was already part of the record.

686

00:53:57,698 --> 00:54:03,325

Yeah, I guess it's the idea of you owning her story by saying it and confirming it.

687

00:54:03,325 --> 00:54:06,118

Confirming the fact that the sun was in her eyes.

688

00:54:06,118 --> 00:54:07,160

I guess that's how I felt.

689

00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:13,157

Like that I don't know that every attorney would put that as far as owning it in that way.

690

00:54:13,157 --> 00:54:14,368

Does that make sense?

691

00:54:14,368 --> 00:54:23,443

Yeah, I will add that in an admitted liability case, I don't know that a judge would have

allowed those questions.

692

00:54:23,443 --> 00:54:24,484

It's a fine line.

693

00:54:24,484 --> 00:54:29,286

You are not allowed to ask about what they did wrong or what they failed to do.

694

00:54:29,286 --> 00:54:31,408

And I did go there with her.

695

00:54:31,408 --> 00:54:34,879

I did expose things in terms of the right turn lane.

696

00:54:34,879 --> 00:54:38,291

She didn't stop first, and then she was 10 to 15 miles an hour.

697

00:54:38,431 --> 00:54:43,274

I think there would have been objections, and um I would have argued that, well,

698

00:54:43,274 --> 00:54:44,895

I am allowed to set the scene.

699

00:54:44,895 --> 00:54:52,360

m And so it would have depended on what the judge wanted to do with that and how much the

judge wanted me to be able to say about the scene.

700

00:54:52,360 --> 00:55:02,386

But we can certainly talk about the scene in order to establish damages and what she saw

and what happened um after the collision and all of that.

701

00:55:02,386 --> 00:55:08,360

But that particular piece with the collision, the sun in her eyes, I don't even know if I

would have been allowed to say that.

702

00:55:08,364 --> 00:55:11,175

I like that you're not afraid to go there though.

703

00:55:11,476 --> 00:55:16,998

it's that whole thing of it's better to be uh forgiven than to ask permission.

704

00:55:18,459 --> 00:55:28,444

With that kind of an ethos, is that what you bring to any cross examination when you're in

trial?

705

00:55:28,444 --> 00:55:32,884

Or is it you have to be really calculating because there might be some danger in that?

706

00:55:32,884 --> 00:55:36,876

I think some lawyers push the envelope way more than I do.

707

00:55:36,916 --> 00:55:38,477

don't like objections.

708

00:55:38,477 --> 00:55:46,681

uh And so I'm not going to, you know, because it just interrupts the flow and it

interrupts the story that I'm eliciting.

709

00:55:46,702 --> 00:55:53,605

But some lawyers, just, uh they'll just bulldoze beyond the judge sustaining objections.

710

00:55:53,806 --> 00:55:55,547

And they're comfortable doing that.

711

00:55:55,547 --> 00:56:02,123

Me, if there had been an objection sustained, I would have, you know, pivoted.

712

00:56:02,123 --> 00:56:05,634

And I'm happy that the question got out there because the jury heard it and they know.

713

00:56:05,634 --> 00:56:08,215

To add something about the Sun fact.

714

00:56:08,215 --> 00:56:09,075

Yeah.

715

00:56:09,075 --> 00:56:14,036

I think that was part of what made me comfortable as well because I was like, she sees me.

716

00:56:14,036 --> 00:56:17,317

She's not trying to accuse me of using my phone.

717

00:56:17,317 --> 00:56:34,482

em So for you to confirm my story and something that was part of my defense em was

actually really successful in getting me on your side, I think.

718

00:56:34,540 --> 00:56:43,446

because that made me more comfortable because you were agreeing with what I said happened

in that way.

719

00:56:43,446 --> 00:56:46,757

I wanna go to the next part of the cross where we get in.

720

00:56:46,757 --> 00:56:52,110

We kind of talked about it already about setting the, you know, that moment of the impact.

721

00:56:52,110 --> 00:56:58,572

But what you did was so, ignited all the senses so much.

722

00:56:58,572 --> 00:57:05,415

was, uh we had, we could feel it, we could hear it.

723

00:57:05,415 --> 00:57:13,074

ah There was so much, and then it was like the bump, like you hit, uh like you rolled a,

724

00:57:13,074 --> 00:57:25,474

rolled over a rock and that was, and then we find out that's the dog, you know, that's

you, you took her step by step through that and we could all see and feel that before I

725

00:57:25,474 --> 00:57:32,289

get your feedback into it, uh Suzy, Sarah, how did that feel as the witness?

726

00:57:32,350 --> 00:57:32,994

it

727

00:57:32,994 --> 00:57:33,875

It was horrible.

728

00:57:33,875 --> 00:57:41,240

think, I mean, from an acting perspective, it was great because I didn't have to do any

work because it was all being relayed to me.

729

00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:50,827

um And as an actor, that's obviously something that I had thought about, but it was

completely laid out for me in every sense.

730

00:57:50,827 --> 00:57:58,152

There was no way for me as the witness to not relive exactly what happened.

731

00:57:58,232 --> 00:58:01,074

And even that detail, like you said, of...

732

00:58:01,632 --> 00:58:06,365

like going over a rock, that must have been exactly what it felt like.

733

00:58:06,365 --> 00:58:12,338

And then to realize that the rock that you went over was actually a dog is horrifying.

734

00:58:12,338 --> 00:58:16,861

Yeah, it was laid out.

735

00:58:16,861 --> 00:58:17,902

Yeah, there were no gaps.

736

00:58:17,902 --> 00:58:25,426

Yeah, your word choice, thud, is just one of those words that like you say, but it's also

like, I don't know, is it automatopoeia?

737

00:58:25,426 --> 00:58:26,429

Is that the right way saying it?

738

00:58:26,429 --> 00:58:27,962

It sounds like it, yeah.

739

00:58:28,812 --> 00:58:30,563

body became airborne.

740

00:58:30,563 --> 00:58:32,083

Like, how is she gonna deny that?

741

00:58:32,083 --> 00:58:34,174

Of course she freaking saw that, right?

742

00:58:34,174 --> 00:58:44,249

But that is also when you could see her kind of go internal and feel, I could see at least

from you, Sarah, like starting to get emotional because you were walking her through it.

743

00:58:44,249 --> 00:58:50,211

But again, so fact-based flung and blood on the dog's fur.

744

00:58:50,211 --> 00:58:57,724

uh Just images that we can see here and then to reduce the dog to a rock.

745

00:58:57,838 --> 00:59:04,133

ah I just thought was really that the word choice of rock was really um important.

746

00:59:04,133 --> 00:59:04,894

Yeah.

747

00:59:05,066 --> 00:59:16,695

I want to say something about the dog questions because that, mean, we've already talked

about how that's such a great uh part of, and I don't mean great because it's awful what

748

00:59:16,695 --> 00:59:21,078

happens to the dog, but that was such an impactful moment.

749

00:59:21,078 --> 00:59:27,923

going back to people, like you said, Susie, people care about animals more than humans

half the time.

750

00:59:27,923 --> 00:59:29,984

And so you really use that.

751

00:59:30,485 --> 00:59:31,916

We've worked with

752

00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:39,835

cases where there was reluctance to talk about the dog uh or a dog involved in whatever

the accident was.

753

00:59:39,835 --> 00:59:46,252

But in this particular case, because this is based on a real case, right, Steve, that

we've kind of altered a little bit, and there was a dog involved.

754

00:59:46,252 --> 00:59:54,965

Yeah, and there was a reluctance to talk about it because there's, can't, you know, it's

not part of the injuries that were sustained.

755

00:59:54,965 --> 01:00:02,307

ah And so it's like, well, we can't go after that, but it's not about the injuries.

756

01:00:02,466 --> 01:00:08,299

It's about igniting the jury's, their anger about this.

757

01:00:08,299 --> 01:00:11,390

They're getting them sucked into this story.

758

01:00:12,074 --> 01:00:13,635

Is there any danger to that?

759

01:00:13,635 --> 01:00:17,997

Susie has someone who is not a lawyer and we just think about story elements.

760

01:00:18,057 --> 01:00:21,839

Is there any danger to to bringing that dog in there?

761

01:00:21,839 --> 01:00:27,482

Are you worried about there being some kind of objections or anything to to that dog?

762

01:00:27,482 --> 01:00:28,278

Well,

763

01:00:28,278 --> 01:00:35,298

if the dog is really unrelated to what's going on, which is hard to imagine.

764

01:00:35,298 --> 01:00:44,107

I mean, if you're walking your dog and you're hit and you're stunned, you're going to

think about your child and whether they're okay.

765

01:00:44,107 --> 01:00:45,739

And so I sort of added that.

766

01:00:45,739 --> 01:00:50,111

I embellished that fact that he was actually cradling Tonki.

767

01:00:50,592 --> 01:00:54,722

And that allowed me to explain why

768

01:00:54,722 --> 01:01:00,126

he waved off the ambulance and said, I'm okay, because all he could think about was his

dog.

769

01:01:00,126 --> 01:01:02,509

I mean, and I think everyone can relate to that.

770

01:01:02,509 --> 01:01:06,572

So that was the narrative I was going with.

771

01:01:06,572 --> 01:01:13,568

they're, you know, if he had been walking, I don't know, I can't imagine a scenario where

he wouldn't care about the dog.

772

01:01:13,568 --> 01:01:18,652

mean, even if it's somebody else's dog, it's like the responsibility you feel somebody

else's child.

773

01:01:18,652 --> 01:01:21,003

I mean, really, our dogs are our children.

774

01:01:21,004 --> 01:01:23,852

So that to me was the, m

775

01:01:23,852 --> 01:01:28,091

you know, a real gift in this fact pattern against the defendant.

776

01:01:28,091 --> 01:01:31,630

However cute she is, she ran over a dog.

777

01:01:31,630 --> 01:01:43,253

You also went into the play-by-play of the medical and, you know, assuming that she was

there in the courtroom while your client was testifying, I don't see any other way, and I

778

01:01:43,253 --> 01:01:54,317

want to ask you, Sarah, that she denies that because she could potentially come off as

insensitive, uh you know, denying any of those claims that she heard him testify to in

779

01:01:54,317 --> 01:01:54,647

court.

780

01:01:54,647 --> 01:01:57,417

Sarah, how did you feel during that section?

781

01:01:58,138 --> 01:01:59,358

I think...

782

01:01:59,478 --> 01:02:05,423

I was definitely, I got a little uncomfortable toward the end just because there was so

much.

783

01:02:05,423 --> 01:02:22,257

um And it didn't feel like I, there wasn't anything I could add or say to any of that

other than agree that that's what he said because as Susie said, I wasn't in all of those

784

01:02:22,257 --> 01:02:23,238

doctor's appointments.

785

01:02:23,238 --> 01:02:28,386

um So I was toward the end,

786

01:02:28,386 --> 01:02:33,771

just getting a little, okay, what's the point here on my end?

787

01:02:33,771 --> 01:02:47,112

Because to her, I think it feels a little irrelevant to go over each of those em injuries

because she can't say anything to that.

788

01:02:47,594 --> 01:02:53,668

And that's a good point because, um you know, I was taking a risk that I might anger the

jury.

789

01:02:53,668 --> 01:02:58,682

The jury might resent that I'm taking her through all that because she doesn't know.

790

01:02:58,822 --> 01:02:59,843

And it's unfair.

791

01:02:59,843 --> 01:03:06,568

uh But it was an opportunity to get those facts out there through the named defendant.

792

01:03:06,568 --> 01:03:15,822

um And so that the jury understands what I'm trying to tell the jury is she doesn't

personally doubt any of this is true.

793

01:03:15,822 --> 01:03:26,208

um It's her lawyer and these experts, paid experts that they brought in, they paraded in

to undermine the claims of the plaintiff.

794

01:03:26,208 --> 01:03:38,615

But she did really well in um making sure the jury knew that she's not agreeing that those

are his damages, but she's agreeing that that's what he said in this courtroom.

795

01:03:38,615 --> 01:03:39,996

Yeah, she heard that.

796

01:03:39,996 --> 01:03:42,057

He testified to that.

797

01:03:42,057 --> 01:03:43,610

So she held her own.

798

01:03:43,610 --> 01:03:57,376

I was gonna say that that that strategy of taking the focus off of Hannah, Sarah's

character Hannah, and putting it on the lawyers, we actually are working on uh a uh with

799

01:03:57,376 --> 01:04:02,598

an attorney on a case where there is a sympathetic uh defendant.

800

01:04:02,618 --> 01:04:06,690

And that was that was what we talked about.

801

01:04:06,690 --> 01:04:12,822

Let's put the focus on this big law firm, you know, and you can I just kind of, hey, this

this

802

01:04:12,822 --> 01:04:15,843

defendant you can see doesn't have a whole lot of money.

803

01:04:15,843 --> 01:04:17,303

It's this big law firm.

804

01:04:17,303 --> 01:04:19,314

Well, how does the big law firm come to be?

805

01:04:19,314 --> 01:04:21,395

You know, you can add that together.

806

01:04:21,395 --> 01:04:22,325

That's a whole different thing.

807

01:04:22,325 --> 01:04:24,716

But really putting the focus on the attorneys.

808

01:04:24,716 --> 01:04:27,747

Do you do you try to do that often?

809

01:04:27,747 --> 01:04:31,658

uh Unless it's egregious, and the defendant is worthy of that.

810

01:04:31,658 --> 01:04:37,450

But you try to put the focus on the attorneys and the experts as much as possible, Susie.

811

01:04:37,550 --> 01:04:38,350

Actually not.

812

01:04:38,350 --> 01:04:42,731

I try to ignore the attorneys and act like they don't matter.

813

01:04:42,731 --> 01:04:43,762

They're irrelevant.

814

01:04:43,762 --> 01:04:45,872

I don't let them trigger me.

815

01:04:45,872 --> 01:04:53,375

um And I notice that they like to pile on me and they like to complain about me to the

jury.

816

01:04:53,375 --> 01:04:55,575

And I don't think the jury likes that.

817

01:04:55,955 --> 01:05:03,337

So what I did here was because she is so likeable and because she's a Christian.

818

01:05:03,337 --> 01:05:05,440

She and her father

819

01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,632

are very active in a church, love thy neighbor.

820

01:05:08,632 --> 01:05:12,415

And I want the jury to know that that's who she is.

821

01:05:12,415 --> 01:05:20,140

And she's gonna agree with me that Lopez uh is entitled to be compensated for what

happened to him.

822

01:05:20,140 --> 01:05:23,642

And quite apart from what her lawyers are saying.

823

01:05:23,642 --> 01:05:35,064

So it was really not, um it really wasn't demonizing the defense team as much as it was

making them irrelevant, getting them out of the way.

824

01:05:35,064 --> 01:05:42,418

so that the jury will understand the human um decision they need to make here between

human beings.

825

01:05:42,418 --> 01:05:50,683

You know, here's this nice girl, she made a mistake, she regrets it, and here's this nice

man who's gonna live the rest of his life with these damages.

826

01:05:50,683 --> 01:05:55,436

And, you know, he needs to be compensated and she wouldn't disagree.

827

01:05:55,446 --> 01:06:05,810

I think the one part and we're going to that last part where once again, no attacking

tone, no, you were consistent all the way through.

828

01:06:05,810 --> 01:06:20,206

But when you bring up that and she has to own it because even though it was likely not her

decision to do this, but to say that you only accepted responsibility two days ago, it's

829

01:06:20,206 --> 01:06:22,017

like, what do you say to that?

830

01:06:22,017 --> 01:06:24,468

It's such a, like,

831

01:06:24,610 --> 01:06:26,351

those facts are harsh.

832

01:06:26,491 --> 01:06:32,256

And like for me, I was like, here, here comes the the the finishing touch.

833

01:06:32,256 --> 01:06:41,794

Like, what a way to finish that cross by going into that whole scenario that for me, I was

just like, Oh, devastating.

834

01:06:41,794 --> 01:06:45,557

Would you have ended there, Suzie, in a trial as well?

835

01:06:45,557 --> 01:06:53,452

Like if you potentially had more time, you know, even outside of this, you know, your 15

minutes, is that a good place that you might've ended anyways?

836

01:06:53,610 --> 01:06:55,151

shorter the better.

837

01:06:55,151 --> 01:06:59,973

with this witness, got everything that I needed and I don't want her on the stand too long

because she's so nice.

838

01:06:59,973 --> 01:07:11,177

um a lot of times with admissions of fault, they stipulate that you can't mention that it

was only two days ago.

839

01:07:11,218 --> 01:07:15,219

So the defendants have done away with that because it is very effective.

840

01:07:15,219 --> 01:07:17,980

um But maybe they don't do that all the time.

841

01:07:17,980 --> 01:07:22,002

uh I know that in the trials that I've been in,

842

01:07:22,063 --> 01:07:24,543

The judge tells us you can't tell them.

843

01:07:24,543 --> 01:07:26,942

You can't let the jury know.

844

01:07:26,996 --> 01:07:39,395

If that was the case in this cross, is there another way that you would have tried to uh

not bring that up, but is there a different way that you would strategically try to finish

845

01:07:39,395 --> 01:07:51,845

uh this cross to kind of maybe not get that same effect, like exactly that same effect,

but try to finish on that, that like nail in the coffin kind of uh way, like you were able

846

01:07:51,845 --> 01:07:53,896

to in this simulation.

847

01:07:54,114 --> 01:07:57,296

Well, I think I wouldn't have talked about how it's two and a half years later.

848

01:07:57,296 --> 01:08:04,680

I wouldn't have talked about time, but I would have said to her, you admit fault and you

acknowledge that as the right thing to do.

849

01:08:05,181 --> 01:08:13,486

And um I might've had a few more questions about that, about what is the right thing to

do.

850

01:08:13,486 --> 01:08:20,650

When you cause harm, you understand that under the law, that harm needs to be compensated.

851

01:08:20,735 --> 01:08:24,099

and that it's the jury's role to determine what that compensation is.

852

01:08:24,099 --> 01:08:24,990

You understand that?

853

01:08:24,990 --> 01:08:26,411

I mean, something like that.

854

01:08:26,411 --> 01:08:32,978

So I would still um make sure, I would still ask her, you admit this was your fault.

855

01:08:32,978 --> 01:08:40,622

oh Assuming I'm allowed to, and I think I would be, you just can't say when in a lot of

courts with a lot of judges.

856

01:08:40,622 --> 01:08:45,802

I want to go back because before, because you actually did something right at the end.

857

01:08:45,802 --> 01:08:51,662

We were just talking about painting the picture of these, you know, love thy neighbor

people.

858

01:08:51,862 --> 01:09:00,942

And you brought, before you closed, you brought her dad into the scene of the accident and

going through that.

859

01:09:00,942 --> 01:09:10,326

And when he arrived, you know, making sure, you know, to go over to to Hannah and that her

dad, a pastor.

860

01:09:10,326 --> 01:09:14,447

a well-known pastor, did not go over to make sure Mr.

861

01:09:14,447 --> 01:09:16,427

Lopez was okay.

862

01:09:16,567 --> 01:09:32,651

That was such a huge admission, but just uh another picture in our head of these people

and their self-preservation versus making sure that somebody who is hurt, dog, and or

863

01:09:32,651 --> 01:09:35,072

human are okay.

864

01:09:35,072 --> 01:09:36,582

How did that feel, Sarah, to you?

865

01:09:36,582 --> 01:09:37,572

I want to go to you first.

866

01:09:37,572 --> 01:09:40,543

How did that feel kind of going through that particular portion?

867

01:09:40,927 --> 01:10:02,324

Yeah, I think more than anything, think I was thinking about, I think Hannah was worried

that her dad would become this figure to be used in my story that would go against me.

868

01:10:02,324 --> 01:10:11,046

And so I think I was trying to really be like, okay, he wasn't involved.

869

01:10:11,214 --> 01:10:22,554

And I think I didn't even realize in the moment until after that fact pattern that that's

what that would mean.

870

01:10:22,554 --> 01:10:26,014

Like I was so in it that I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

871

01:10:26,014 --> 01:10:28,754

No, no, no, I didn't ask him to go over.

872

01:10:28,814 --> 01:10:32,694

And then I was like, oh, well, yeah, yeah.

873

01:10:34,414 --> 01:10:36,014

Not great.

874

01:10:36,876 --> 01:10:42,129

It so makes sense for this character who feels extreme guilt about so many things.

875

01:10:42,129 --> 01:10:53,645

And then I love that you went, you know, really took an emphasis on that relationship

between her and her father and trying to protect him and his name.

876

01:10:53,765 --> 01:10:59,969

And then it leads to kind of like, uh like a bad, a bad picture.

877

01:10:59,969 --> 01:11:02,764

But that's once again, Suzy, you were

878

01:11:02,764 --> 01:11:12,038

delivering these questions without any any extra uh any extra vigor or it was just

consistent.

879

01:11:13,338 --> 01:11:25,453

I think that's what allows you to get away with so much stuff and we try to we try to

teach that all the time is just like detaching from um the the emotions of it a little bit

880

01:11:25,453 --> 01:11:32,086

when you're the lawyer delivering these cross examinations and realize that you're doing

so much damage.

881

01:11:32,204 --> 01:11:36,098

without needing to get angry and without needing to get fired up.

882

01:11:36,098 --> 01:11:50,972

uh So, I mean, we know that's your delivery, Suzy, but what do you think about that as far

as like not getting into uh those like fired up angry emotions when you're going through a

883

01:11:50,972 --> 01:11:53,433

cross like this or any cross?

884

01:11:54,136 --> 01:12:05,299

So I think, I mean, I learned this from you and I even said it on the webinar last Friday

was about when you are going to approach a witness, you set an intention about what

885

01:12:05,299 --> 01:12:12,331

feeling you want the jury to have by the time you sit down from after your examination.

886

01:12:12,331 --> 01:12:17,532

And so I didn't want the jury to feel like I was beating up on this nice girl.

887

01:12:17,532 --> 01:12:24,012

And I wanted the jury to feel that I am bringing out the facts.

888

01:12:24,012 --> 01:12:36,565

And they may be tough facts for her to own, but I'm going to acknowledge her humanity and

separate that, not personalize them, not blame her for these facts.

889

01:12:36,565 --> 01:12:41,187

These facts have happened, and we can all agree that they happened, and this is how they

happened.

890

01:12:41,187 --> 01:12:48,649

But I did, um for example, shift my tone when I said, think a lot of your dad, don't you?

891

01:12:48,649 --> 01:12:52,950

You know, like, I'm a daughter, too, and I know what it's like to feel.

892

01:12:52,950 --> 01:12:55,371

you know, really good about a good dad.

893

01:12:55,371 --> 01:12:57,312

And he loves you too.

894

01:12:57,312 --> 01:13:01,354

And she says, I hope so, because she's feeling terrible about herself.

895

01:13:01,354 --> 01:13:09,877

But there is a moment of, I get it, you know, and the jury sees that I get it, that, you

know, she's a loving daughter and she's a loved daughter.

896

01:13:09,877 --> 01:13:11,418

And that's a good thing.

897

01:13:11,418 --> 01:13:15,520

And then we move right into, and then you guys are circling the wagons, right?

898

01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:16,620

You know?

899

01:13:17,481 --> 01:13:20,682

And nobody notices that except that,

900

01:13:21,535 --> 01:13:23,281

That's the fact, you know?

901

01:13:23,281 --> 01:13:27,978

ah Yeah, the pastor didn't go up to the injured man to say, you okay?

902

01:13:28,474 --> 01:13:37,917

I want to ask you, and this was not a question um that we had prepped you for, but I know

that you've done this before because we talked about it in the case that you did with the

903

01:13:37,917 --> 01:13:39,157

electrician.

904

01:13:39,314 --> 01:13:50,791

To get that word choice, to get that word choice of how they're going to potentially frame

your client, how the defense is going to frame your client, you kind of took a step back,

905

01:13:50,791 --> 01:13:56,296

right, Suzie, to kind of think about it in that way to ultimately help you come up with

the word choice that you

906

01:13:56,296 --> 01:13:58,543

used um that would boost your client.

907

01:13:58,543 --> 01:14:00,590

Can you talk about that process a little bit?

908

01:14:00,590 --> 01:14:06,614

Well, it's a very high tech process these days because we do big data studies and we get

word clouds.

909

01:14:06,614 --> 01:14:23,523

So word clouds are oh little collages of words and they are uh color coded according to

whether these words were spoken by uh favorable jurors and uh jurors who were unfavorable

910

01:14:23,523 --> 01:14:24,644

to your case.

911

01:14:24,824 --> 01:14:28,302

it's red if they're more pro-defense and it's blue if they're more

912

01:14:28,302 --> 01:14:33,444

pro-plenif and it's black if you hear this, you know, equally from both sides.

913

01:14:33,444 --> 01:14:36,785

And then the more frequently you hear the word, the bigger it is.

914

01:14:36,785 --> 01:14:43,888

um that less frequency, frequently you hear the word, um of course, the smaller it is.

915

01:14:43,888 --> 01:14:48,951

And so these, there's a word cloud for every witness, including the plaintiff.

916

01:14:48,951 --> 01:14:53,252

And for example, in the case that we did, hardworking was huge.

917

01:14:53,252 --> 01:14:57,734

um And it was mostly blue, but it came from both sides.

918

01:14:57,838 --> 01:15:04,502

um And so we select words from those word clouds based upon this research that we do.

919

01:15:04,502 --> 01:15:07,104

And so it is pretty sophisticated.

920

01:15:07,104 --> 01:15:10,406

um So we focus everything.

921

01:15:10,478 --> 01:15:21,198

come a long way since, uh, since you first started, uh, uh, uh, trying cases, uh, so many

years ago, it's, it's gotta be amazing.

922

01:15:21,198 --> 01:15:27,538

The tools that are available now versus when you first started as a, as a, uh, a brand new

lawyer.

923

01:15:27,690 --> 01:15:39,677

But then, you know, um we are still reliant on our own imagination and ingenuity because

by the time the evidence is all out there and you're going into closing, most people don't

924

01:15:39,677 --> 01:15:43,139

have the opportunity to do a focus group or to do big data.

925

01:15:43,139 --> 01:15:53,905

And so you've got to read your own jury and you've got to the evidence that came out and

em use uh themes that uh are going to resonate the most in your closing argument.

926

01:15:53,905 --> 01:15:55,478

uh

927

01:15:55,478 --> 01:15:57,804

you know, it's not all taken over by tech.

928

01:15:57,804 --> 01:16:03,588

Yeah, I remember you had to do that because weren't two witnesses at the last minute, at

least two kind of thrown at you.

929

01:16:03,588 --> 01:16:06,319

How did you, and there's no, you you just got to do it.

930

01:16:06,319 --> 01:16:08,901

There's no like AI even quickly to help you do that.

931

01:16:08,901 --> 01:16:14,575

So what did you, what were some of those things that you pulled in to help you on the spot

kind of create those crosses?

932

01:16:14,575 --> 01:16:16,822

And by the way, kill them both, those experts.

933

01:16:16,822 --> 01:16:20,734

Yeah, they were both defense witnesses and I'd never met them before.

934

01:16:20,734 --> 01:16:25,067

I'd never taken their depositions before and they were very high risk witnesses.

935

01:16:25,067 --> 01:16:38,534

But I would say that the thing that was the saving grace for me was knowing the case so

well and knowing what the defense was going to use these witnesses to prove so that I knew

936

01:16:38,534 --> 01:16:41,156

what they were not prepared to testify about.

937

01:16:41,156 --> 01:16:46,028

And then when I asked them questions about what they weren't prepared to testify about, I

got

938

01:16:46,028 --> 01:16:51,960

honest answers that I expected to get because I knew the industry so well.

939

01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:59,984

knew the particular, oh you know, oh what my client had been doing as an electrician.

940

01:16:59,984 --> 01:17:01,334

one of them was an electrician.

941

01:17:01,334 --> 01:17:05,776

So I asked him, well, what does your employer require you to do under these circumstances?

942

01:17:05,776 --> 01:17:11,028

And I got exactly the answers that we had been saying all along, our client did.

943

01:17:11,028 --> 01:17:15,850

And in doing so, know, METR exceeded the standard of care.

944

01:17:15,970 --> 01:17:23,616

that we got gold from that guy and it ended up being something we used prominently in our

closing argument.

945

01:17:24,017 --> 01:17:31,092

And the other one was just so poorly prepared and such a, just he was so flipped that that

one was a lot easier to do.

946

01:17:31,092 --> 01:17:33,944

But just being prepared, you know.

947

01:17:35,006 --> 01:17:42,232

I prepare to help me cope with the anxiety and the stress of getting up on game day.

948

01:17:42,232 --> 01:17:45,612

So I over prepare and you know.

949

01:17:45,612 --> 01:17:56,299

You can't get away with doing trials without preparing, but the greatest benefit to

preparing is having that mental agility and the ability to deal with the unexpected as

950

01:17:56,299 --> 01:17:57,686

it's being thrown at you.

951

01:17:57,686 --> 01:18:04,512

With that being said, I do want to go back to what we were talking about as far as the

closing argument.

952

01:18:05,113 --> 01:18:15,562

when you're approaching that closing argument and you have a case like this where the

defendant is extremely sympathetic, how do you go about asking the jury to assign

953

01:18:15,562 --> 01:18:16,733

significant damages?

954

01:18:16,733 --> 01:18:24,810

What are some of the strategies that you would use going into that closing argument where

it's really important?

955

01:18:24,810 --> 01:18:38,105

I mean, the whole purpose is to get an award that provides for your client, that really,

really provides for them, not just getting against the defendant, but really getting that

956

01:18:38,105 --> 01:18:43,316

life-changing uh award, that verdict award.

957

01:18:43,316 --> 01:18:48,318

What are some of the things that you try to do to make that happen?

958

01:18:48,730 --> 01:19:00,860

So with a very sympathetic defendant like Hannah Madison, I'm going to definitely let the

jury know that there is, you know, we're not blaming her personally for this.

959

01:19:00,860 --> 01:19:04,523

This is, you know, this is a damages trial.

960

01:19:04,523 --> 01:19:08,957

And in fact, I don't have to prove that she's liable because she's admitted it.

961

01:19:08,957 --> 01:19:17,394

In fact, in some ways, it would be harder if they had denied liability because then I

would still have to make the jury point the finger at her.

962

01:19:17,812 --> 01:19:22,064

it's easier to do it here when it's, you know, admitted liability.

963

01:19:22,064 --> 01:19:23,695

We're just going to focus on the damages.

964

01:19:23,695 --> 01:19:26,806

And this has nothing to do with Hannah Madison personally.

965

01:19:26,806 --> 01:19:30,337

She's a lovely person, but you know, this, is what it is.

966

01:19:30,337 --> 01:19:31,858

And you have to evaluate damages.

967

01:19:31,858 --> 01:19:33,229

That's one thing I would do.

968

01:19:33,229 --> 01:19:39,141

And then the other thing I would do is go back to what we've clearly talked about in jury

selection.

969

01:19:39,141 --> 01:19:45,024

If not me, then the defense, which is you can't make your decisions based on sympathy.

970

01:19:45,024 --> 01:19:45,922

All right.

971

01:19:45,922 --> 01:19:46,882

sympathy for the plaintiff.

972

01:19:46,882 --> 01:19:57,385

And I would say, and you know, you can't base your decisions based on sympathy for

anybody, either party, the defendant, the plaintiff or the defendant.

973

01:19:57,385 --> 01:19:59,076

And she's very sympathetic.

974

01:19:59,076 --> 01:20:06,908

And I would take that head off and then just tell them, you know, it's the same rule

applies on both sides.

975

01:20:07,008 --> 01:20:14,530

And then really spend a lot of time on damages and as little time as possible on her.

976

01:20:14,968 --> 01:20:16,138

That's great.

977

01:20:16,339 --> 01:20:18,239

I do want to switch it to Sarah really quick.

978

01:20:18,239 --> 01:20:22,731

ah You had such great insights as far as your journey through that cross.

979

01:20:22,731 --> 01:20:23,902

And I really appreciate that.

980

01:20:23,902 --> 01:20:27,803

And I appreciate the uh preparation that you did.

981

01:20:27,803 --> 01:20:36,347

And with that in mind, one of the things that we always do when we're working with our

clients and we're approaching a deposition or cross is we're doing it.

982

01:20:36,347 --> 01:20:39,708

We do a basically a character study.

983

01:20:39,708 --> 01:20:45,100

uh When you were taking on a role, and I think this could be helpful to uh

984

01:20:45,100 --> 01:20:55,046

The people who are listening to us as trial lawyers, when you're taking on a role, what

are the first things that you do to study that character, to really try to understand that

985

01:20:55,046 --> 01:20:58,126

character from beyond the words on the page?

986

01:20:58,126 --> 01:20:59,187

What a great question.

987

01:20:59,187 --> 01:21:12,456

think a lot about what their life is like and how I can relate to it em and maybe what's

different from myself or what's similar to other people that I know.

988

01:21:12,456 --> 01:21:21,423

em I think looking beyond the page to who they are, what their personality is like.

989

01:21:21,423 --> 01:21:26,726

You can't really tell what someone's personality is like by reading words that they've

said or...

990

01:21:26,976 --> 01:21:28,747

necessarily a description about them.

991

01:21:28,747 --> 01:21:41,875

em So I think looking at that and thinking about what's important to them, who's important

in their life, what are the important things in their life, what are their touchstones, em

992

01:21:41,875 --> 01:21:43,274

how do they live their life.

993

01:21:43,274 --> 01:21:55,482

em Really going into those details, I think can very quickly make someone more human and

more alive.

994

01:21:55,690 --> 01:22:05,434

And those are the specific, the specifics that really make a person a person and not just

a description or words on a page.

995

01:22:05,434 --> 01:22:13,688

I'm thinking of like texting, even like, you know, just writing a text and it's like,

gosh, I hope that comes off okay, because it's just, you know, you don't know context or,

996

01:22:13,688 --> 01:22:21,301

you know, how somebody's actually saying something if, you know, it could sound angry to

you in a text, but that's not really maybe how it might come off if they were to literally

997

01:22:21,301 --> 01:22:21,631

say it.

998

01:22:21,631 --> 01:22:23,810

And then knowing like some attorneys can...

999

01:22:23,810 --> 01:22:27,111

you know, get away with different things uh than others.

01:22:27,111 --> 01:22:27,882

It just depends.

01:22:27,882 --> 01:22:31,113

You can't base it off of, you know, what you read on a page.

01:22:31,113 --> 01:22:31,894

Absolutely.

01:22:31,894 --> 01:22:43,674

And I think also thinking specifically with Hannah, thinking about how she would react to

different types of people, because that's the unknown here, right?

01:22:43,674 --> 01:22:45,239

It's just like being in a scene.

01:22:45,239 --> 01:22:51,942

You can have a goal and have what you want to get across and what you want to say.

01:22:52,344 --> 01:22:54,235

but you might not get to do that.

01:22:54,335 --> 01:23:06,174

And it might be separate or different from what you were expecting because you don't know

who the lawyer is or how they're gonna treat you or what angle they're going to take.

01:23:06,174 --> 01:23:15,610

So both as the actor and the witness, it's like you have to be agile to whatever you

receive from the other end.

01:23:15,610 --> 01:23:21,594

I think a really important thing that you said about when you're thinking about this

character is what's important to them.

01:23:21,594 --> 01:23:34,481

And I think when we're thinking about and we're looking into, uh you know, an upcoming uh

witness that is going to be deposed or, or cross examined for by one of our clients.

01:23:34,481 --> 01:23:42,626

I think that's one of the things that we always think about is, is what's important to

them, because it can tell you so much about what they're going to say.

01:23:42,738 --> 01:23:47,189

when we're trying to, you know, take on that witness, like, how would they react?

01:23:47,189 --> 01:23:48,500

What are they going to say?

01:23:48,500 --> 01:24:04,214

And you know, one of the things that that that I think it showed in this particular cross

was your um devotion and um you know, the way that you look at your father and him as

01:24:04,214 --> 01:24:12,756

somebody that's prominent in the community, he'd really tell and it it showed it's it's,

you know, it came out.

01:24:12,994 --> 01:24:18,926

there was you know, they had that moment where we talked about it and it came out so

naturally, how that that worked out.

01:24:18,926 --> 01:24:24,337

But I think that's such an important thing is take an empathetic look at who you're going

to cross or depose.

01:24:24,337 --> 01:24:28,778

And I want to bring it to Suzy and really quick and I know we're we're getting towards the

end.

01:24:28,778 --> 01:24:39,461

But Suzy, when you're thinking about that witness or or or that you're going to depose or

you're going to cross, do you take that same approach of thinking about what's important

01:24:39,461 --> 01:24:42,136

to them and how that might

01:24:42,136 --> 01:24:43,711

get them to react?

01:24:44,234 --> 01:24:48,194

You know, I like that particular phrasing.

01:24:48,194 --> 01:24:50,039

I think what I think about are their interest.

01:24:50,039 --> 01:24:52,581

What is their interest here?

01:24:52,581 --> 01:25:02,150

And what are they um going to want me to elicit and what and and what are they going to

want to conceal?

01:25:02,150 --> 01:25:12,002

And so I look at their motives um and then come up, you know, with a cross based upon my

need that my needs for the case.

01:25:12,002 --> 01:25:25,248

think in this case, really appreciated that Sarah did, you know, thought about Hannah um

and what kind of person, how Hannah lives her life, what her life is like, you know, going

01:25:25,248 --> 01:25:36,963

to the mall, teaching kindergarten, you know, remaining really close to her family, the

family that she grew up in, you know, this Christian household that has some celebrity

01:25:36,963 --> 01:25:38,423

status in the neighborhood.

01:25:38,423 --> 01:25:40,396

So she actually likes that.

01:25:40,396 --> 01:25:41,617

She didn't rebel against it.

01:25:41,617 --> 01:25:42,948

She didn't leave it.

01:25:42,948 --> 01:25:48,911

And so those facts communicated the same thing to me, that that's who I'm dealing with.

01:25:49,091 --> 01:25:50,582

And she's also a good girl.

01:25:50,582 --> 01:25:53,274

She's going to do what she's been told to do.

01:25:53,274 --> 01:26:00,418

And that is m not argue with me and be sort of an easy witness and just get through it.

01:26:00,418 --> 01:26:08,098

um And I liked what she said that, you know, that was her mindset as Hannah was.

01:26:08,098 --> 01:26:12,021

I just have to listen and answer the questions and it'll be over soon.

01:26:12,762 --> 01:26:19,027

And so that made her, you know, that made my approach uh a good one for her.

01:26:19,287 --> 01:26:24,532

So if she had said, that's not true, my dad did go and talk to Mr.

01:26:24,532 --> 01:26:26,253

Lopez, for example.

01:26:26,578 --> 01:26:37,422

I can't say in a vacuum now what I would have done, but um if we were to rewind and she

had done that, um I might have, you know, looped what she said.

01:26:37,634 --> 01:26:46,062

because the particular words she chose might have been uh revealing of something and I

could have gone someplace with that.

01:26:46,062 --> 01:26:54,668

um But no, it's frankly much more realistic that the pastor didn't go and talk to them.

01:26:54,668 --> 01:27:01,088

I wonder if it would play into like you, in terms of damages, like he went over to make

sure he was okay.

01:27:01,088 --> 01:27:02,611

And you wanna make sure he's okay.

01:27:02,611 --> 01:27:10,176

what, know, however it would actually be able to do it in court, that you wanna make sure

that he, you know, um remains okay.

01:27:10,176 --> 01:27:16,608

I would not have taken that risk unless I knew that there was established evidence that he

did not go up there.

01:27:16,608 --> 01:27:20,779

Now, if I knew that he had gone up there ah and asked Mr.

01:27:20,779 --> 01:27:26,191

Lopez how he was, um I don't know that I would have touched it.

01:27:26,191 --> 01:27:39,074

If there was some other aspect to that conversation that I felt I wanted the jury to hear,

maybe I would have, but um I was secure that it's in the record.

01:27:39,074 --> 01:27:46,583

you know, let's say the pastor testified and he, you know, he testified only to

conversations with the police and his daughter and then he left.

01:27:46,583 --> 01:27:53,001

um Then it would have been beautiful to bring it up because then nobody had asked him

before, well, did you talk to Mr.

01:27:53,001 --> 01:27:53,492

Lopez?

01:27:53,492 --> 01:27:55,384

And I could have done it through his daughter.

01:27:55,384 --> 01:28:00,344

Well, Suzy, any other takeaways from today if you had to cross this witness tomorrow?

01:28:00,344 --> 01:28:07,437

Well, I would have been, uh yeah, was definitely tuned in to see if she's going to start

crying.

01:28:07,637 --> 01:28:12,159

And because then you do need to uh deal with that.

01:28:12,159 --> 01:28:21,663

And the way you deal with it is to remove her from the scene and get her to focus on other

facts.

01:28:21,663 --> 01:28:25,004

So I might have jumped around with my chapters.

01:28:25,004 --> 01:28:29,804

So if she started crying at the point where she hit the dog, um I would have

01:28:29,804 --> 01:28:37,543

jumped to something else about her dad, the pastor or something like that.

01:28:37,543 --> 01:28:39,826

But I didn't have to do that.

01:28:39,826 --> 01:28:50,828

She was on the verge of tears, but I was able to continue with the chronology that I

wanted to follow and it was okay.

01:28:50,828 --> 01:28:55,581

Yeah, I think it was because you were going so fact-based.

01:28:55,581 --> 01:28:58,883

You didn't kind of let her sit in any of those too long.

01:28:58,883 --> 01:29:11,082

um You kept your pace and something that uh even as a crying witness that we've played, uh

you know, we can definitely milk it, but it's because, you know, like, I feel like it's

01:29:11,082 --> 01:29:19,898

because they're really trying, the attorney's really trying to draw it out in us, but you

just went, you just kept going on what you needed to do and didn't, fazed by that in that

01:29:19,898 --> 01:29:20,778

respect.

01:29:20,854 --> 01:29:27,098

Yeah, Sarah, you're an artist who doesn't necessarily work in the legal field, but you've

been with us a few times now.

01:29:27,098 --> 01:29:28,940

What stood out to you today?

01:29:28,940 --> 01:29:40,338

I think really just thinking about, and I touch on it a little bit at the end of the last

thing that I said, but thinking about how cross-examining someone is not a singular

01:29:40,338 --> 01:29:40,998

experience.

01:29:40,998 --> 01:29:48,053

can't decide or figure out exactly how it's going to go, even if you've planned it.

01:29:48,053 --> 01:29:49,914

And I think that's where

01:29:50,318 --> 01:30:03,402

em a lawyer's experience and an actor's experience really overlap because you can have a

goal going into a scene or as a character and you truly might not get what you want.

01:30:03,402 --> 01:30:05,522

Most of the times you might not.

01:30:05,522 --> 01:30:12,924

em And I think that's kind of what's fun to me about being an actor is you don't know

what's on the other side.

01:30:12,924 --> 01:30:15,565

You don't know how you're going to come out of it.

01:30:15,565 --> 01:30:19,526

em You have this other person to play with.

01:30:19,791 --> 01:30:24,385

and something comes out of it and you don't know what it's gonna be.

01:30:24,620 --> 01:30:37,179

I think that attitude is such a great way to look at even cross-examination and

depositions that there's something exciting there, that it's not necessarily like this, um

01:30:37,179 --> 01:30:48,867

know, where, God, I hope it goes exactly the way I want it, but having some excitement

about there's some unexpected stuff that's gonna happen, but if I'm dialed in and I'm

01:30:48,867 --> 01:30:53,950

prepared for things to not go the way I want them to,

01:30:54,324 --> 01:30:58,215

And especially if have the skill set and the tools to deal with that.

01:30:58,536 --> 01:30:59,796

Gosh, could.

01:30:59,956 --> 01:31:04,818

It's it could be an amazing experience or a much more positive going into it.

01:31:04,818 --> 01:31:06,939

A much more positive experience.

01:31:06,939 --> 01:31:15,894

Susie, I know you have all the tools, so uh is that kind of how you feel about uh going

into those depositions and crosses like that?

01:31:15,894 --> 01:31:25,647

Yeah, I mean, there's so much preparation and really scripting uh because you're designing

your examination, but the unexpected, you have to expect the unexpected.

01:31:25,647 --> 01:31:40,301

And I love Olivia's story about the scene where the potted plant lands in the actor's

hands, and he reacts by handing it over to the woman that he's wooing uh because he just

01:31:40,301 --> 01:31:41,852

like made it a part of the scene.

01:31:41,852 --> 01:31:43,562

I just love that story.

01:31:43,594 --> 01:31:46,014

it's really emblematic of what we do.

01:31:46,014 --> 01:31:54,741

Yes, and you can find that in our Acting for Trial Lawyers 100 on-demand course on our

website, because that's part of it.

01:31:54,741 --> 01:32:06,109

It's how do you deal with something that's scripted, but still stay nimble about it, still

adjust to your audience or your witness, um and that's what we study, that's what we do in

01:32:06,109 --> 01:32:06,619

the theater.

01:32:06,619 --> 01:32:10,132

So it kind of is that balance, that delicate balance.

01:32:10,232 --> 01:32:12,994

Steve, should we do our three favorite things today?

01:32:13,132 --> 01:32:19,180

I'll tell you one of my favorite things was cradling the dog in his arms.

01:32:19,180 --> 01:32:21,388

Oh my goodness.

01:32:21,388 --> 01:32:22,040

You took mine.

01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:23,558

I had cradling Tonki.

01:32:23,558 --> 01:32:25,012

I added the word, just a name Tonki.

01:32:25,012 --> 01:32:27,942

uh

01:32:28,038 --> 01:32:29,331

I'm very proud of the names.

01:32:29,331 --> 01:32:35,089

I'm very proud of the it was like Hannah Madison is like a double like who she is.

01:32:35,089 --> 01:32:42,339

uh But yeah, Tonki when I saw that name that that's a common Guatemalan name for a dog.

01:32:42,339 --> 01:32:43,540

I was like, yeah.

01:32:45,095 --> 01:32:46,716

Look at that.

01:32:47,037 --> 01:32:55,330

The image uh of the pastor not going over to make sure that one of the people in his

community was okay.

01:32:55,846 --> 01:32:58,050

And it felt like a rock.

01:32:58,050 --> 01:33:00,282

It felt like you were rolling over a rock.

01:33:00,282 --> 01:33:01,394

My goodness.

01:33:01,394 --> 01:33:03,897

That was uh so strong.

01:33:03,897 --> 01:33:07,022

That was such a strong uh leading question right there.

01:33:07,022 --> 01:33:09,755

I'm gonna add a fourth thing real quick.

01:33:09,755 --> 01:33:10,586

Sarah's cross.

01:33:10,586 --> 01:33:11,527

She wore a cross today.

01:33:11,527 --> 01:33:18,092

If you're just listening to this, just in complete character today, that's one of my

favorite things.

01:33:18,092 --> 01:33:19,905

Yes, absolutely.

01:33:20,127 --> 01:33:26,581

So Susie, where can people find you and can people book you to speak at events?

01:33:27,944 --> 01:33:29,395

I've at events.

01:33:29,395 --> 01:33:31,816

I'm a very low key attorney.

01:33:32,056 --> 01:33:40,440

I've been around for a long time, but I've done some big cases, including a Supreme Court

victory, US Supreme Court victory in an aviation case.

01:33:40,440 --> 01:33:45,402

And I am in Berkeley, California.

01:33:45,402 --> 01:33:49,514

And if you have the spelling of my name, you can find me online.

01:33:49,514 --> 01:33:50,124

So.

01:33:50,146 --> 01:33:53,977

We are gonna link it too, uh as well, so people can find you.

01:33:53,977 --> 01:33:54,938

Sarah, how about you?

01:33:54,938 --> 01:33:58,158

How can we keep up on what you're up to?

01:33:58,158 --> 01:34:06,801

Yeah, if anyone is in the LA area in June, I am performing at the Hollywood Fringe

Festival in my friend's show.

01:34:06,801 --> 01:34:08,792

It's called All Cats Go to Hell.

01:34:08,792 --> 01:34:10,772

Not sure how Hannah Madison would feel about that.

01:34:10,772 --> 01:34:17,514

ah But it's about a group of kids who accidentally blow up their neighbor's cat.

01:34:18,102 --> 01:34:19,442

which would be an interesting case.

01:34:19,442 --> 01:34:22,603

um So that's kind of fun.

01:34:22,764 --> 01:34:27,005

And I am on Instagram, saradottaylor13.

01:34:27,005 --> 01:34:27,965

Fantastic.

01:34:27,965 --> 01:34:29,086

Most of my antics.

01:34:29,086 --> 01:34:34,587

Yes, we will definitely connect into the show notes here.

01:34:34,587 --> 01:34:39,669

Well, if you are enjoying what we're cooking up on our podcast, make sure to follow us.

01:34:39,669 --> 01:34:43,158

Tell your colleagues about everything going on here in the Cross Lab.

01:34:43,158 --> 01:34:45,641

and uh give us a five-star review.

01:34:45,641 --> 01:34:48,795

ah Those things really help us get the word out.

01:34:48,795 --> 01:34:54,832

We think that what we're doing here is really important to make you a better advocate for

your clients.

01:34:54,832 --> 01:34:57,068

So don't be afraid to get the word out.

01:34:57,068 --> 01:35:00,390

Yes, Sarah and Suzie, thank you so much for joining us.

01:35:00,390 --> 01:35:08,204

Thank you, Sarah, for your insight into storytelling and into Hannah Madison and Suzie, uh

badass attorney.

01:35:08,204 --> 01:35:10,065

We so appreciate your time.

01:35:10,065 --> 01:35:13,035

Your clients are so, so lucky to have you.

01:35:13,035 --> 01:35:14,867

Thank you for joining us both.

01:35:15,018 --> 01:35:15,938

Thank you.

01:35:15,938 --> 01:35:16,848

Yeah.

01:35:16,848 --> 01:35:20,290

And we hope you take the best of today with you to court.

01:35:20,812 --> 01:35:22,465

Well, that's the end of our experiment.

01:35:22,465 --> 01:35:25,790

So we'll see you next time on CrossLab.

01:35:28,366 --> 01:35:34,168

Please like and subscribe to CrossLab wherever you get your podcasts or webcasts.

01:35:34,168 --> 01:35:37,570

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01:35:37,570 --> 01:35:42,352

If you didn't, this podcast has been Paul Hollywood's Baker's Podcast.

01:35:42,352 --> 01:35:47,854

Thank you for listening to CrossLab, a trial house consulting production powered by

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01:35:47,854 --> 01:35:55,837

To get free resources for your next trial, go to houseimprov.com, H-A-U-S improv.com.

01:35:55,837 --> 01:35:58,146

This program is written and produced

01:35:58,146 --> 01:36:02,414

by Steve Homan and Olivia Espinosa and edited by Mark Crespo.

01:36:02,414 --> 01:36:02,914

you

01:36:02,914 --> 01:36:08,977

The discussions and content presented in this podcast are for educational and

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01:36:08,977 --> 01:36:13,719

They are not a substitute for professional legal advice, guidance or representation.

01:36:13,719 --> 01:36:22,423

Participation in this podcast, including cross examinations and feedback, takes place in a

simulated training environment with fictional witnesses and scenarios.

01:36:22,423 --> 01:36:26,505

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01:36:26,505 --> 01:36:32,848

The views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect

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01:36:32,848 --> 01:36:35,231

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House Team Productions and Law Pods are not responsible for the accuracy, outcomes, or

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01:36:43,779 --> 01:36:50,075

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