Starting an Environmental Nonprofit: The Balean Founders Story with Bart Oor and Sander Brienen

0:00 I have a special episode for you today. We have Bart Orr and Sonder Brennan on the podcast today to talk about Bion. If you remember correctly, Bart was on the podcast a number of months ago talking about collaboration. Today we're gonna be talking about their founder story and how they founded Bion and what to expect when they launched in October. This is a great platform. If you are somebody who is independent or you have an independent project and you're looking for funding, and you're looking for some. Report. Just full disclosure, I am a part of this. I'm one of their early adopters and I've been working with them in collaboration to bring awareness of how people work independently and how they need funding and how they need that kind of support. So we're gonna talk about that on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

0:44 Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you could speak up for the ocean, what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. On today's episode, we have two very special guests. We have Bart or and Saunders Brennan, who are here to talk about their founder story in how they founded Ballion, how they met as neighbors. We're gonna talk about what they do for living before this and how they pivoted and how they wanted to really do something that mattered in the crux of things. They both are entrepreneurs and they are very passionate about the ocean, and they looked at the ocean, they said.

1:25 What can we do to help? We want to help. And that's what they do, and that's what they're doing right now, is they're building a platform to help independent projects, independent individuals who want to do something to help the ocean, and they're going to help them get funding and provide support for them. So it's gonna be a great platform that I want people to know about, especially you guys. So let's get into it. Here's the interview with Bardo and Sonder. Brennan. Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you. After. Hey Bart. Hey Sander. Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about marine conservation? Definitely. So yeah, bring it home. Right on. This is gonna be a lot of fun. Uh, Bart, you've been on the podcast before. We talked about collaboration.

2:06 That was a big, uh, part of that discussion. And today we're gonna be talking about. Bian. We, we talked a little bit about Bion last time, but we're really gonna go into the founder's story of Bium. We have Bart, we have Sonder here. You guys are the founders, and we're gonna hear about what you are hoping to accomplish with Bian. We're gonna find out your backgrounds. We're gonna find out, you know, the, the platform, uh, how this is all gonna work out. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh, this is gonna be something that I've been looking forward to for, for a long time, so I can't wait to get into it. Awesome. But before we do. Why don't we just start off getting to know you guys a little bit? Um, sand. Let's start with you. Since this is the first time on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you. Once you just let us know, let the audience know, uh, who you are and what you do. Yeah, thanks, uh, for having me.

2:46 Uh, I'm Sanda, I'm, uh, from the Netherlands, like both of course. Um, I'm the IT guy, so, uh, is gonna be a platform. I'm, I'm the guy to, to go to in terms of it. So I've worked is in it in like 20 years or so. Um. Having done all kinds of roles and, uh, in the, in the recent times, uh, I sort of got sick of all the money making all the commercial stuff and, uh, decided to, uh, to do a third career switch. Third, a little pivot, another pivot. Uh, that, that is my third pivot. So I started like really deep dive it.

3:27 Then I went more into consultancy. So that was the first pivot. Gotcha. And then, uh, that went more in consultancy versus a combination in, um, how you say it, uh, uh, business development, so to say. Gotcha. Yeah. That pivoted into a sales leadership role and now, uh, I'm a full, full entrepreneur. Right on. I love that. I love that. That's quite the, uh, that's quite the evolution, which we'll dive into to just a second. Uh, Bart, you've been on the podcast before. Why don't you remind people of who you are and what you do? Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. Bart, or, um, the, together with Sander, I am one of the co-founders for, uh, for Ballium, and we are ocean entrepreneurs.

4:08 And, uh, what we do is, uh, we bring people together. Uh, we have a community of ocean lovers, ocean impact makers, and anyone who cares about the ocean and, uh, wants to feel like. I can contribute, I can make a, I can make a difference, and, uh, I have an idea or I want to help. That's what we do. And where Sandler is the IT person, I am not the IT person. I have no clue where to start. But what I really like is, uh, yeah, I, I, I like collaboration. I like bringing people together. I like, um, um. Projects I like, uh, uh, having long-term views and big visions. Uh, that's where I really thrive. Uh, but also, uh, that gives me energy and that's where Valion is also in, uh, uh, especially now in the, the current phases where things are really, really kicking off, uh, where we are.

4:56 Uh, the, the ball is rolling. Um, yeah, we feel super excited about where we're heading, uh, towards the launch of our bion platform where all Ocean impact initiatives. Ocean storytellers and impact makers come together and for any individual to, to join and participate and be part of the solution. That's what we do. Yeah. I love that. And then we're gonna dive into that, uh, in just a moment on today's episode. But I, I wanna go back a little bit and, and dive into your, to your, you know, the beginnings, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's a very interesting story how you guys came together. Um, but, but before you guys knew each other, um. Uh, and because of physical proximity, I think, which we'll get into in just a moment.

5:41 Um, so Sandra, you mentioned, you know, you were doing it. Were you ever. You know, interested, you guys are from the Netherlands, so you, you know, you're, you're surrounded by, by, by water. Did you grow up around the water? Did you grow up more inland? Like how did the ocean impact your life? Or, or did it at all at that, at that point? Like at a young age or as you were growing up? Yeah, so first of all I was grown up more inland, so not really at the coast. Um Gotcha. But at age 20 or so, I went for a long trip to Australia and New Zealand. And that's where, um, yeah, I, I really love nature in general, but, uh, I, I went diving on the Great Barrier Reef.

6:23 That was an amazing experience. Then I went to New Zealand where you have this huge national park. It's, it's incredibly large with a lot of rain. The Millford South, I'm not sure if you know it. And, uh, yeah, that's also like a, a, the most beautiful area in the world, I think. So people that went to Norway in, in in Europe will know a little bit how it would look. It's, it's a bit like a furat in Norway, that that's, that's magnificent. And, um, so that's where I started loving it. Um, uh, later in my life, I also went to islands, uh, in, in the Netherlands often for vacations. Uh, started doing sailing and, and things like that. So I have my sale, um, how it's called.

7:04 License or so like a driving license, but then for sailboats, yeah. Nice, nice. Yeah. So yeah, slowly it's in my, in my younger years, not, but in, in, in the, in my later ages, uh, in my twenties, so to say, I really got this, this love for, for coastal areas, uh, sea water in general. Yeah. Yeah. That started, it's, it's so funny how, like, you know, I, I'm surrounded, I live in Ontario, Canada, and I'm surrounded by the Great Lakes. Yeah. A lot of times growing up, all you think about is going elsewhere for water, like for, you know, for the actual ocean, not, not what we call the Sweetwater Ocean here in the Great Lakes. Oh yeah. But, um, you know, you, you go to these beautiful places, Australia, New Zealand, like the Caribbean, and, and.

7:48 And down in like the south, like in the Mediterranean, all these beautiful tropical places. But we have these wonderful coastlines definitely just around our own, back in our own, you know, quote unquote backyard. And, you know, you can do sailing and you can do scuba diving and you can do snorkeling. Might be a little cooler in the water, but it's still, uh, you know, beautiful and picturesque. And, and we just don't realize it until maybe we're, we're adults. Like, like sonder, when you start to go on vacations to these. So these, uh, you know, islands in the Netherlands, which, you know, I would imagine would be spectacular views. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Um, some nice water with a lot of wind I'm sure as well. Uh, to, for good, for great for sailing. Yeah. Uh, which, which is, which is wonderful. Yeah. Um, and I think that's, I think that's really interesting to, to get that appreciation for the ocean as you grow up and you're able to get some, a little bit of money to travel and, and to, to move out, like, you know, in your twenties and, and thirties and so forth.

8:40 And I think that's, that's really great. Now, you, you chose. You know, the life of an IT person, you know, an IT guy. And so the, the first job, when you said you were like deep into it, did you work for, you know, a company where you were that IT person, you're setting up the computers, you're looking at the networks. Oh, you're looking at security. Was that the kind of it you were entirely not. Oh, okay. That would, what were you doing? No, I, I, in my, uh, time I was studying, I, I worked for an organization where you had exactly that role and I. Did a bit of that, but that was definitely not my cup of the, uh, right. I went for a big integrator and, uh, in that organization I did projects for large organizations where I programmed, um, computer systems and think about, for example, you have, nowadays you have this banking app on your phone.

9:34 Mm-hmm. Things like that. Oh wow. Yeah. So you're like creating Yeah. But then really like backend systems, like mm-hmm. Really large backend systems. Uh, uh, we, we build those things. Yeah. That's amazing. He, he still repairs my iPad if I mess up with it. I mean, he tells he doesn't do that, but he can, he can. I, I, he can still, he can still do that to a certain extent. I can. Uh, there is a limitation though, uh, with, with Windows, I don't go, go well with Windows, but for all the rest I'm good. And, uh, so yeah, no, duly noted. Yeah. But, uh, duly noted. But I mean that like. That's pretty cool that you, you know, you, you are part of these teams that create like the backend because I think a lot of people don't really understand, we see the front end of a lot of these banking apps and Yeah.

10:20 That we know and trust and, and know that they're secure to handle our money. And, and I know, I know when like mobile banking came out for me. You know, you don't trust it at the beginning. You're just like, well, hold on a second. Like, this is not something that's gonna work. But it works out so well because of people like yourself, you know, around the world that are working on these, these backend systems. It's, it's like a pretty important thing. It's like the unsung heroes of modern day. You know, banking and, and using mobile apps and stuff. 'cause we don't realize it. We used to see the front, we just see the user interface and that's all we care about, you know, as, as we use it. Right. And, and so I think it's, uh, it's kind of nice that you got to be a part of that, you know, and has like meaning towards people's lives. Yeah. I mean, that's gotta be a, is that a big driver for you when you work on something like when you look like every time you've done pivoting?

11:06 Yeah. Right. You mentioned that you've done pivoting before, like from the, the. The work that you were doing, working on these backend systems and then going into consultancy, what was the driver to move? Was it just something different or what was that, that quest you wanted to get? Yeah, so it, that started in my youth, I must say. So I, my youth, I start playing with my, with the computer that we had at home. And that slowly became sort of my computer, although it was in fact my parents. Right? Right. But I was doing so much with it. And also I knew a lot more than, than, uh, both my parents. So they started also asking me things. And, and that's also you mentioned, okay. It it's creating, yeah. It, it's creating. So I, I remember a situation where my, my dad was asking me, uh, to build something as you had a problem.

11:50 And he was describing it to me, and then I had to build it for him in, I, I think it was in, in. In, in batch script, in, uh, in, um, uh, MS. Dos back then, long time ago. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, remember those days, but, but taking in his question, uh, building something and then handing it back and getting the feedback, oh, this is great. You, you've done it. Uh, very good. This is exactly what I wanted. That was my driver. So exactly. Translating the question into something workable and then see people using that, that's, that's definitely something I, I love to do. That's also why I went for that. Also because, yeah, I did so much with computers already. It was sort of logical follow up to go, uh, for sure study that.

12:34 And then at some point, yeah, the switch to consultancy, um, is also because that helped me go much more in front of the customer. I was already having a, a customer facing role, but that really got me into, okay, now you go into the customer here, his problem, and then, uh, give him a solution. And yeah. Um, later on I went for customer success, which is sort of a, a sales role. Uh, and the same thing, help the customer improve, help the customer be successful, and, and that's, uh, being successful. That's what really the, the, the big drive. Yeah, that's interesting. 'cause like I, my day job, I work as a customer success person. Yeah, I know. Yeah. We, we talked about this before. Yeah. Uh, which is, which is great.

13:15 Uh, so that, yeah. That's amazing. It's such a, uh, must have been quite the change. Uh, were there some challenges that you had going from, you know, working in the back end to be more customer facing? Of course you have to learn, uh, I mean if you, if you've ever worked with developers. They tend to be the shy people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, uh, yeah, going into a public or a customer facing role, you have to be a lot more proactive. You have to be a lot more communicative. Um mm-hmm. Yeah. In the beginning you had some struggles, but then I had also good people or make good mentors That helped me improve. That helped me see, uh, what to change and what, what to improve, um, right.

13:58 Yeah. And, and, and yeah. Now from there, and. That, that's, that's really helped me in, in, in getting better in it. And I must say, um, I have this tendency of, of seeing the way forward very easily. So people tell me, and then some, it already starts going round and round in my hand. Okay, this could be the solution. And I immediately sub see a path forward. Uh, but I also see from, from limited context. Okay. But this is the situation. You have other organizations with similar situations, so it must be this. And then you tell those people and then they got, wow. That's exactly the problem. But that's because there were so many organizations already before them that.

14:41 Yeah, it's then easy. Yeah, that makes it easy. So also experience, uh, the years working in there, uh, helped in making, being successful in that. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Now going from that, you're getting, you know, you have this, this technical background that you've been building over these years, not only from a backend perspective and behind the scenes perspective, but now you're getting into customer facing, so you're dealing more with customers and more with people facing it. Now you become an entrepreneur. Yes. You know, what, what made was is, is bian your first go at being an entrepreneur or is this is, I mean, obviously you're, you have your own consultancy. That's, that's an entrepreneurial kind of venture.

15:21 But was bian your next, uh, your next leap I guess? Yeah, and, and going like fully entrepreneurial at Bion, I suppose, and, and the, the organization behind it is my first leap. Uh, in a previous role I did, um. Become responsible for a larger team and also responsible for profit and loss. So that makes you already a kind of entrepreneur, but mm-hmm. Um, I was always under the hood of something else, so I was always. Working for larger organization, uh, but with a profit and loss responsibility and yeah. Now I'm, I'm com completely on my own. Yeah. Now we have our own assets on the table, right?

16:03 Yeah. Balance suddenly. But it's also the freedom. I mean, uh, I am very secure in it nowadays, in, in moving forward and, and, and yeah, I'm enjoying the freedom as well. Yeah, you were and you were ready for that. Yeah. 'cause come like, like with, with freedom also comes a lot more responsibility. Yes. Right? And, and there's a lot more, um. I guess there's a lot more risk when it come, when you're, you know, you, you move fully as an entrepreneur and, and that, that takes a lot of guts to do that move. Yeah. But also to, uh, to just be like, yeah, no, I'm responsible for this risk. So it's like it's on me. Yeah. It's on Bart. Like it's on us, like, as a team to, to move forward.

16:43 Exactly. And I think that takes some time to evolve as a business person, as you have to get into that, as someone who, who also had had to go through that in, in certain times of my life. Yeah. I know there's one time where I was not ready and then I went back to the workforce. So, you know, you, you kind of evolve as you, as you get, and you get more comfortable with that, that type of risk. If, if you feel that the risks are really pressing you down and making you reluctant and, and mm-hmm tired, anxiety, then, then that's not the right time. Then it's better to move back. If the risk is just okay, a challenge to change and to move forward with, then you're good. Then you're good. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. Do something different, right? It can also be really if the walls come towards you, in that sense mm-hmm.

17:26 It's in, in a way, it's also a route you have to travel. You, you, you cannot help it. Uh, so yeah, I, I really believe that, uh, entrepreneurial mindset is something you, uh, you. It's, it's, it doesn't change from one day to the other, uh, when you, uh, uh, register at the Chamber of Commerce, but it's more like something that has always been there, right? Yes. Uh, you have always have your thoughts. Yeah. And it can be within an organization or your own organization or in our case, uh, uh, as two founders. Uh, and then you need to do things together, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. And Sandra, even you, with your background as, you know, as a IT guy, but also like a developer, you're, you're into problem solving.

18:07 And that's essentially what an entrepreneur can do. So you, you do, you have the background, it's just a matter of like putting in the context of what you want to, what you wanna work on. And my, my pitfall is, oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, sorry. And my, my pitfall is that I. I start doing, but I don't finish doing. Ah, yeah, you tell me now. Well, that's just good to have a co-founder and someone to help you, like stay on track. I that I, I completely understand. 'cause I'm definitely, I'm, I'm definitely that way. And, and, and Bart you know, last time you were on the, on the podcast, we got a little bit of a, of, of a, a background on you, but just to remind people like. Where did you start before? Like how did you end up being, you know, a co-founder with, with Sonder? With Bian?

18:48 Like what was your evolution, uh, to going into like the, the, the working world? Yeah, well, I, I, I was, I was also a technical guy. I moved gradually from consumer goods, uh, as an engineer, uh, towards, uh, business development and strategy. And from there I started longing for purpose and impact. Uh, what does it bring if you create stuff that is already there and you create just more stuff? And that was. I, I just mentioned how, how it feels like when the walls are coming towards you and you and, and you feel like you're limited. Yeah. This was my moment. I decided, okay, now, now it's really time to make a change. Um, what if we do something that's, is not just there to make money or to, with being an entrepreneur for the sake of being an an entrepreneur, but more like, how can we.

19:36 Making a difference and Right. And this making a difference. That's something that's, uh, triggered something a couple of years back already. Uh, yeah, it was already there. The spark. Yeah. And, um, yeah, when you, when you start thinking about something, uh, it, it keeps you awake at night. Uh, you, you are thinking about it all the time. You're in all situations, all opportunities. You see, you see the different light. And, and, and that's what's really triggered it and, and also made, uh, yeah, made a difference, uh, compared to, uh, how I used to be. Right? Uh, yeah. If there was even a bar from the past and a bar from the future, uh, if there is such a thing. Um, well, I mean, that's, that's the, that's the beauty about, you know, evolving, you know, as, as a human being, but like you have.

20:22 These specific moments within your life that, that, whether it be having kids or whether it be, you know, looking at, at nature and how it's changing that Yeah. That can make you pivot and make you switch and, and sometimes it's just like, oh, I want something different. And I want to be just like Saunders, like I want to go into more customer facing roles and I want to go into, you know, more roles where I have more control over the. Over the product and, and, and helping get through this. Oh, yeah, yeah. But for you guys, it's for the two of you. It's interesting, you guys, when founders meet, a lot of times it's at like, maybe mm-hmm. At, um, uh, at a meeting, you know, of, of the, of the great minds and business leaders or you, you meet at a, um, uh, like a, who knows, like a convention or a conference or things like that.

21:08 You do have a, a, a different background. You, you actually physically like neighbors. You, you live across the street from each other, right? Yes, exactly. Yeah. Right, right there. Yeah. So, so how did that, how did this, like friendship, 'cause I assume it, it, it started off as a friendship. How did that friendship, like how, how many years back have you been living across the street from each other? Ah, I, I, I didn't, I didn't really count right. I, we moved in, when did you start living here? Moved, uh, in here in 2021. Um, mid 2021. So that's about, uh, four and a half years now. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So I was there one and a half year before. Okay. Okay. So, okay. So both new to the neighborhood. Pretty new to, but yeah, exactly.

21:49 And we now, we now, um, know each other about four, four and a half years then, and, uh, now as opposite neighbors, uh, you, uh, meet each other at the street, uh, drink a coffee together every now and then. And yeah, there's this other sort of. Um, hobby that we have both have, which is dogs. Ah, dogs always bring people together. Yes. Dogs will always bring people together. So yeah, they're they're, they're the other co-founding team. They're the other co-founding team. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. But it, what is really interesting is that, uh, sometimes you search the world for finding the right. Co-founder or mm-hmm. Entrepreneurial partner, business partner.

22:31 You, you reach out to people and, and many of them say, ah, well I really love your idea, but I just got this new job. Or, Hmm. I like what you're doing, but, Hmm. Yeah, I'm a little bit short on money or, yeah. Uh, my family cannot help, uh, cannot work, cannot support me, and, and. And, and in our case, um, well, it just happens to live across the street, right? Yes. It can also be very coincidental in that sense. Definitely. Yeah. And, and, and during one of these walks, it, it really started resonating. Sometimes you feel like, okay, now we're onto something and this might actually work. Um, yes. And here we are, and then now we're suddenly in this journey. Exactly. That, that's exactly the point.

23:11 But this might actually work. This, this, that's also why I am. Hooked on, on his, uh, idea because I was already in my mind thinking about, uh, okay, what can I do to make more impact to, to be more purposeful? Mm-hmm. And, uh, my wife, she's working in nature conservation in general and more coastal areas. Okay. But, uh, uh, doing all other things as well. And they have all this research data they, they sit on, and that's an immense amount. Yes, but it's all living in Excel sheets and that's insane. Yes, that's insane. It really blows my mind to have like thousands and thousands of, of lines in an Excel sheet.

23:53 I'm laughing because I, I've been there, you know, as, as a scientist, um, who used to love Excel, but also as a database manager, like a gi s database manager. He used to be like, are you kidding me? Like, how many more Excel sheets do you need to put into this? Like, we should be putting this into yes. A database. Like, especially like even at, like, even to a point, I don't know, does she work, does your wife work for a government or does she work for a nonprofit organization? Uh, it's also not, it's a commercial organization, but that organization works for a lot for a government organization. Okay. Well, what, what I find, find, I used to work for federal government here in Canada and like. All of our stuff was on Excel sheets, like on personal computers. And as you know, that, like as an IT guy that must give you stress beyond stress because all that data could be lost if that computer, you know, goes, you know, gets wet.

24:40 Or you're looking at, at, at aquatic biologists who take their computers everywhere and don't treat 'em properly and stuff. And I, we used to just be like, we need to grab that data and put 'em on like a central database so we don't lose this. The people's data. You know, you can't lose the Exactly. But, and you should, but Scientist, we love our Excel sheets. Yeah. We love our, I know, but it's not just losing, but it also making it accessible. But because hundred percent Excel sheet, it's, it's, it crashes all the time with those large data sets. Yeah. It's insane. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can already, you can already, you can already hear it in Sandra's voice. He's just like, wait a minute. This is, there's a lot of stress going on in this. So this is the Yeah. This is the, also the, the trigger that I needed. Right. I was the one who wasn't even aware of these risks.

25:22 Mm-hmm. And, and, and, uh, what, what might go wrong. Right. And, but yeah, sometimes it, it, it needs to. Resonate and, and your, your passion for, okay, how can we optimize, how can we do things better? That was something that's, um, yeah, there's the overlap. Yeah. Uh, how can we make a difference and how can we do things better? Yeah, but what if we combine forces? What if we join forces? Right. That that's, that, that's, yeah. That's basically the background or Yeah. The, the, the, the energy, uh, system behind our collaboration, eh? Yes. Yeah. And I, and I love that I, I'm looking on the, the website and on your founder story page, you have like, yeah. You know the question, what if we could do something that truly mattered? And I feel like, yeah. I feel like everybody wants to answer that question at some point in their life, but that's also a very big question.

26:06 There's so many different ways Yeah. That you can go to answer that question and still be legitimate and still, you know, you know, do something that truly matters. How did it go from let's do something that truly mattered? What if we could do something that truly mattered to let's help, you know, help people. Let's help. People that are trying to help the ocean. Yeah. How did it, how did that step, that seems to be like a, a big step. Yeah. But it's also a, a, an evolution, right? So that didn't start, of course, immediately. So first of all, I, I remember bar coming to me reluctantly with this idea. I have this idea and can you have a, an, a look at it, maybe give you opinion about.

26:46 If it would work or not, and if it's even even doable. And then mm-hmm. He started explaining me and, and immediately, as I said earlier, things started going round and round and seeing solutions, but also opportunities beyond what he was, uh, explaining, uh, around data collection. And so also we started also brainstorming and, and all the ideas came and came and more ideas came. Um, uh, and um, I think it started with. A simple, okay. Uh, let, let's take a piece of ocean and have people adopt it, so to say. Mm-hmm. And, um, also with the idea, okay, we are, uh, a mechanical engineer and a, a computer engineer.

27:28 What can a mechanical engineer and a computer engineer do to improve ocean conservation? I mean, I'm not, I can dive a little, but not very well. Uh, but I have no clue about marine life at all. I'm not a biologist. Um, I, I know a little bit, uh, nowadays a bit more than back then, but mm-hmm. Uh, it, it's not, not close enough to, to become a really, a marine conserv conservative, or how do you call it in English? Um, conservationist. Yeah, conversationist. That's right. Yeah. Um, so with, with our abilities, with our. Skill, what can we do to, uh, to make an improvement to make impact in ocean conservation?

28:11 And that's why we came up with this idea of let's bring people together with all these organizations that are actually doing something on ocean conservation. And, and just that simple idea to bring people together. Um, that's where it started and then it started evolving from that point on. Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we, someone was, you were actually the first one who, who understood my idea. Right. That was, let, let me start with that. That's also a very important measure before you start talking to co-founders, you need someone to understand what you mean. And, and remember very clearly that, uh, we were talking about the, this, uh, how can we make an impact and, and where is this?

28:52 We, we both have a passion for nature, uh, conservation, uh, and, and, and, and sustainability. We're, uh, worried also about climate change and, and yeah, what you can do there, uh, if you, if you really zoom out and you look at the earth and you see all this, this, this amazing amount of water, it, it, it's really. Triggers this, this, this, this. Mind of, hold on. There's so much more than, than what we see on our everyday life. Mm-hmm. There should be something there. And, and, and I, I remember very clearly that one of the convers conversations I had with, uh, with, uh, with a marine biologist who, who explained me about. What is happening, how the ocean plays a role, how our oxygen, half the oxygen, uh, comes from the ocean and, oh, oh, hold on.

29:39 That's, uh, there must be more. Yes. Uh, what is happening in this field, and I really remember that we, uh, uh, uh, yeah, the summer, this was actually in collaboration with, uh, Amsterdam University of Applied Science, right? Where we talked about, okay, what is happening in this world of ocean sustainability, uh, ocean climate change, uh, uh. Uh, restoration initiatives, this, this, this field. Mm-hmm. And, and, and one of the things that we notice is, hold on, there's already 10,000 organizations there and, and, mm-hmm. Yeah. Why should we do exactly the same? We don't, we we're not this competitive people who want to outcompete others.

30:21 Uh, we also felt like, yeah, but this is a good idea. There's also another good idea. And, and, and look at this one, what they are doing. Right? Yeah. And this, this really triggered that. Okay. So how would it be if instead of doing the same thing, uh, comparable thing or something that is. Almost the same. Why don't we do something that supports the whole group that would really make a difference in scaling and, and it could also be something that's. It differentiates in, in the fact that, uh, we don't do competition, uh, periods. That that's a very clear appointment we made. We don't do competition. There's only collaborators and people who have, if you have the right mindset, if you have the right intentions and want to make a difference or impact in ocean climate change or sustainability.

31:09 You're welcome to join and, and we're more than happy to help you with, with visibility, awareness, and funding. That's where we come in. Yeah. And yeah, and, and, and, yeah. That's where we are today. Yeah. Well, and I think it's such a, that's a, I think it's really, um, I, I'm gonna say this in a, I don't mean this as insult. I was very mature of you to come into, uh, a, a field. Where you don't have as much experience. You're getting to know what's going on. You see what's available. You see the type of organizations that are out there doing great work and you understand and you, and you respect them to do that. And then you sit there like, how do we play a role here? Where, you know, we can still be collaborative, which was the reason why you were on last time, Bart, um, and talk about collaboration, but also like how do we support this, this industry.

31:56 And I think it's, I think it's really important, and especially with the, the business mindsets that you have. It's like, where can we fill. The gap. Yeah. You know, and, and what gap and I, and I feel like the biggest gap, and I've seen this, I've been at this for a long time, you know, o over 20 years, um, in marine and freshwater biology, but also in communications and talking to a number of different people and seeing how. There are some shortcomings within the, the marine conservation field. You know, you, when you, when you graduate as a marine scientist or as a conservationist, whether it be an advocate or a lawyer and you wanna work in, it could be any field really. As you know, any field can go into marine conservation. It's a hard thing to do to start a career because, you know, you can go to government, you can go to nonprofit organizations, you can go to private consulting and, and, and do it that way.

32:46 Yeah. But it all depends on the funding that's around, you know, even in government, there's, it is not guaranteed, you know, as we see, like in Canada, in the past when a. A specific party gets in, they, they decide to cut all the environmental positions. Yeah. Or they, because they don't want to have to deal with that. And we're seeing that mm-hmm. In the, in the US at this point. And Yeah. And, uh, and it's, it's very, it's, it's very interesting to come in and, and the, the gap that I've seen is those, those people who don't fit within that, those three pillars. It's these, these independent people. Who have great projects, um, who have like great ideas and great products, but they just don't have the ability to get the funding to get those projects moving forward.

33:28 Oh, yeah. Which could have a significant impact, whether it be locally, regionally, or even nationally or internationally. And I feel like that's where you guys really fit in. Yeah. And, and I like that. Yeah. In, in a way, what is, we take a lot of inspiration actually from what we've seen. Right. I mean the, the, the, the, the people are there. The solutions are there. Technology has never been the issue. So what is stopping us and, and we found out is, is very much about. Many people don't even know what is possible. No. Mm-hmm. And this is where we want to play a role in how can we make people aware of how things are possible? And, and if you know that things are possible, if you feel inspired, of course, uh, you, you, you want to be part of solutions.

34:10 You want to be on the good side. You want to help, you want to support and, and make a difference. And, and this is where we built a bridge between society and impact makers. Like, like in your example, uh, it, it. It could be anyone, uh, a student, uh, uh, uh, uh, someone who retired and follows his, his or her passion, or entrepreneurs. Uh, uh, there's so many people who have amazing ideas and we feel like they should be leveraged in what they're doing and, and, and deserve to be scaling their efforts and, and, and, and their impact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a huge, uh, that's a huge part of it. Um, and I, and I feel like that's interesting. So when you got to that point where you're like, how do we, how do we do this?

34:55 Where did the idea come from for, or why don't you just, maybe, why don't you just talk about the, the goal of, of Bian. Mm-hmm. And then talk about like how that idea evolved into that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what we do is we do, uh, awareness, visibility, and funding for ocean impact initiatives around the planet. And we got into this field by the, the, the sense that there's something missing. Uh, funding is clearly one of the biggest issues. To, uh, make initiative skill. And the other part is that most people, uh, normal people like me are not even aware of what is already there.

35:35 So. When we were talking about this, this, uh, I, I, I, we re I remember very clearly Isand that we talked about. Yeah. Hmm. How would it be if we bring this together in some sort of platform and could we do crowdfunding? Could we do, uh, matchmaking? And, uh, I really remember the, the moment that you said, yeah, but actually Bart, this should be combined with, with a, with an experience, uh, where people can connect. It's, it's a community. So why don't we combine. Funding awareness and visibility in, in, in a community feeling where you can feel welcome, where you can feel part of solutions, uh, where you can go for an experience. And more importantly, to be part of the solution no matter where you are, what you, what skills you bring to the table or what your background is.

36:21 Yeah. Mm-hmm. And maybe also it's an advantage for us not being marine scientists, but out of the field. Uh mm-hmm. We, we know what the general people, uh, doesn't know. Do not know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They have no clue about, uh, what organizations there are, what they can do, how they can, uh, help in, in protecting any, uh, ocean or, or sea or whatever. Um, and yeah, I think with, with our. Lack of knowledge in this case. Mm-hmm. We can maybe bring the, the, the system, the app, the technology that they need to understand, okay, here's why, how I can make impact.

37:02 This is what I can do. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's been, I've been, uh, I've had the, uh, great fortune of, of being part of, of this, of this program, you know, uh, in the, in the early stages. Yeah. And, and I, I, I definitely appreciate that I've gotten to know both of you, but I've gotten to know the other people, um, in the, in the early adopter program as, as, as you call it. And it's been such a, an amazing, uh, evolution for my own way of communicating as someone who's in communications. It, it's, it's, it's really great. To see. 'cause I have my own, you know, I'm, I'm stuck in like, I do this a lot on my own. I have, I take advice from people that come in, but a lot of it's stuck in my head. And, you know, when you get stuck in your own head and you, you think, oh, this is what the people want, this is what they want.

37:43 But to be able to hear it from one the both of you, um, but also your collaboration with, with Natalie Gilson, who's a communications expert and has been friend of the podcast and been on this podcast as well. To be able to really spell it out for people of how we do things, why we're doing projects from, uh, outside of our, not only our own heads, but outside of the marine field. Because what we know as what's important to the marine field may not be necessarily the priorities of people outside the marine field. And to be able to sometimes just go down to the most simplest. Part of what we're trying to do might be enough to impress not only the both of you, but also the funders that will be, you know, joining the platform, supporting the platform.

38:25 I think that's been like a really eye-opening thing for me during this process, and I'm sure to the other, uh, early adopters. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks. First of all, a big thank you for these, these insights. I mean, um, we. Sometimes we also don't know. Right. Of course. We, we, we, we we're also not communicators. We, we both come from engineering, remember. But what I find super interesting is, is we, we kickstarted this early adopter program and look, uh, we have an idea for a platform. It's not that yet there, but do you want to be part of it? Yeah. That's our early adopter program. Yeah. Uh, we're launching, uh, the platform in October, October, 2025.

39:05 And during this program where we set up workshops, collaboration, uh, knowledge exchange, and sharing, uh, with, with Natalie, uh, from, from Pisces, uh, about ocean storytelling. About how to, how to tell what you're doing. Yeah. I, I was also surprised and, and, and really encouraged by the fact how much knowledge there already is in this group. Uh, there was this amazing sense of, okay, let's help the others. Let's help, uh, my friends, let's also help, uh, other organizations who might be on the other side of the ocean, literally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and sometimes you just bring this, this, this single thought that I haven't thought of before.

39:51 If you open up for that, it doesn't require, let's say, myself to have all this knowledge. If you just bring together the people and you create this atmosphere of knowledge exchange of a community, uh, with the same goals for making impact, ocean impact, that is, that really brings in a lot, uh, lot of, uh, powerful forces and, and, um, yeah. Uh, we feel like, uh, we are definitely on the right path with now 11 o organizations. But, um. We're, we're scaling and the more people, the more initiatives, the more organizations we bring to the table, the more, the more visitors we have, the more powerful this collaboration and knowledge exchange becomes. Yeah, absolutely. Why don't you let people know, uh, you know, we've talked about what Valiant is and what's what it's trying to do.

40:37 Uh, for the people in the audience who are, you know, early career researchers, they're scientists, they're, they're engineers, they're people of all different backgrounds. People who want to know how they can help protect the ocean. Um. From a, like once the platform launches, yes. How can they, they help other than sharing the platform, of course, but how can they help, uh, support the platform and, and the projects that are there? Like, what does it look like for them when they like the ideal, when they go to the, to the site, into the platform? We, we are building a minimum viable product now, so the, the, the very bare functionality which entails having the projects, all these organizations that have their projects. On the platform, and you can read about what they're doing, what impact they are making, and then you can donate.

41:20 So the, the best way to help both Bian and those organizations is to donate, right? Uh, that's the first step, right? And, uh, okay. The organizations need their money. They really, uh, need, uh, some funding to make more impact, but also bian needs to grow, needs to scale up, needs to, uh, also require some money to do that. Uh, so we also ask for, uh, a tip. On top of the donation, uh, for us, of course, uh, that that's the first thing. But yeah, uh, that's only a starting point. This is where the journey starts. From there onwards, we have like an, a huge amount of ideas. Think about, uh, okay, uh, contact those organizations directly in, in like a, a con command or chat functionality where you can talk to those people and ask if they need more help.

42:08 Think about, uh, things like citizen science where people can provide. Content, data, images, whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, we, we haven't thought about it, what the details are, but, uh, they can provide that, add that to the platform, and we can mm-hmm. Sort of process that and, um, uh, give out, give back the data from it. Yeah. Um, think about, uh, people or organizations, not only, uh. Projecting their idea, their projects that they're working on, but also maybe events, volunteering events that they have or volunteering work that they require, and then people can directly apply to those events or those volunteering jobs.

42:51 So yeah. May maybe your, maybe your next job is there. Eh? Yes. It, it, who knows? We have been, uh, we have been very, that was very interesting is that as soon as we started and the moment we had our website live. We have volunteers helping us. Yeah. People we never met before, and suddenly they're part of the team. And, and, and that's also something where we feel like, okay, this is something where we can make a difference. If you feel like, Hmm, I want to be part of it, uh, I would like to contribute to an initiative in Mexico, in, in the Netherlands or in Canada, uh, and support them financially. Perfect. Yeah. If you feel like, hmm, it's around the corner, I can help. Or it's not around the corner, but I can help remotely, uh, supporting them.

43:33 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, there's a lot of ways how you can, how you can actually Yeah. Be part of, of, of bringing solutions and, and, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, yeah. Uh, but it's experience as well. Yeah. Uh, uh, stories, ocean stories. There's so many people who just have a passion for the ocean. Uh, they, they, they live on the ocean sometimes, literally. Uh, yes. Uh, uh, write stories about it. Uh, podcast. I know someone who does podcasts. Yes, there is, there are so many people who, who really. Care about what we're doing. Uh, we did not get this just from our market research. We really experienced firsthand how much passion there is and, uh, absolutely passion that deserves to be shared, uh, with like-minded people.

44:14 Yeah, I, it, I agree. I think it that this platform, as you said right now, it's, it's, uh, you know, an MVP, like a minimal viable product that you're put, that you're putting forth and it can build from there. And I think. That, that will be really interesting, the, the different possibilities that can come in. But just the fact that, you know, the exposure for these projects that may not have this exposure on an international level, um, through this platform is such a, is such an important part. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, we all work within our own. Communities within our own, sometimes silos, you know, where we're just kinda stuck within our own, our own people within our own network. To be able to be part of a larger network that is international, uh, is, is really important, uh, to, to all of us, you know, anybody who, who becomes part of this platform?

44:57 The, the, the, the interesting question that I have, you know, you, you have definitely made a, a decision, a conscious decision too. Support international projects. You know, we have a, a couple people from Canada, we have a couple people like you mentioned some, some in Mexico. Um, what, why was that like, you could have said, we wanna stay in like, just in the net like support projects in the Netherlands, which took completely understandable. You know, you know the Netherlands, you, you know, it's, it's your, oh yeah. Your home and, and your home country. Or you could have said the European Union just in general because there's a lot of of connections there as well. What made you decide, we wanna pro, we want to open this up internationally. Yeah, I, I think there's a few things that, that really, uh, uh, that we really noticed.

45:40 Uh, I remember that we were in, uh, November 23, uh, we were at Ocean Ovation, which happens to be in the Hague in, in the Netherlands at the time. And the first thing you notice is that there's a really, really international environment. Mm-hmm. It's not like if there is an initiative from, uh, let's say, uh, from, uh, from from Canada, that it's only Canadians working there. Uh, right. And, and, and the same for, for the Netherlands. So it's really international. It's very diverse. Uh, there you see all kinds of people, uh, uh, you, you've never met before, but they have the same passion for Ocean impact. On the other hand, um, we in modern times, uh, sander has been to Australia and he got this trigger for, oh, hold on, this is something big.

46:24 We really felt like, Hmm. Uh. Sometimes the inspiration also comes from where you've been and mm-hmm. You might have been on holiday in Portugal, uh, where you got your inspiration, hold on. There's something great happening here. Um, and you start caring for an environment or certain field where you, where you don't come from, where you don't live, but you just know the place and you start caring for it. Mm-hmm. So it really breeds like this, this, this whole. International, global, uh, uh, uh, collaboration, uh, from the sector as a whole, but also how the ocean is, uh, is, is experienced by, by different people.

47:05 Yeah. And let's not forget, uh, the, the, the ocean is 71% of the surface of the, of planet Earth, right? Uh, so it's, it, it doesn't stop locally. Everything is connected. Uh, there is. One large moss of water, which is all interconnected. It's the largest ecosystem in the planet. Yeah. And if, if I. I'm in the water here in the Netherlands. It's the same water. I might run into some conversations with a marine biologist, but it's the same water as someone who is in India or in, uh, yeah, in China. It, um, yeah, so it, it, it really felt natural to, to start exploring it. And when we kickstarted our early adopter program for, for finding, uh, organizations impact makers.

47:51 Um, we got very quickly already approached by people from, uh, not from the Netherlands. And, uh, uh, we, we never set a border to No, you should have these or those barriers. And we are only accepting from, from Europe or from the Netherlands. No, we opened up, uh, see what happens. And, uh, we, yeah, automatically and, and also, uh, to our great, uh, uh, uh, enthusiasm, uh, found out there is, uh, a very collaborative space. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. There's, I mean, there's definitely people who want to Oh yeah. To collaborate, who want to help, uh, who needs some help, who needs some, this platform. Um, and I think it's, I think it's very important and I'm, I'm looking forward to, to not only participating in it, but seeing how this platform grows not only from the, from the launch, all the way to its growth and it's evolution.

48:39 I think it's something that's absolutely needed, uh, in this, in this field. Um, and, and, um, I think it's, it's gonna be really great to see. These projects get supported from a variety of different levels, as, as all of you mentioned, right? It's, it's not only from a funding perspective, exposure perspective, maybe citizen science perspective, um, maybe, you know, uh, an ability to recruit people to help out, to volunteer and and so forth. I think that's, that's really important and get that international exposure. So, uh, I wanna thank both of you for, for coming on the podcast and, and, uh, you know, telling us this story, telling us how you met. I have one question though. Yeah, as as a dog owner, myself and I live in an area, a neighborhood. That's all.

49:19 You know, a lot of dogs, like we, I I would say 75% of the people who in, in this neighborhood own at least one dog. Um, and a lot of the times when we're walking, we all know each other. Yes. Mm-hmm. But there's a, there's a good chance that we know the dog's name Yes. And more than we know the owner's name. So how long was it before you actually knew each other's names and not just your dog's names when you met? I think in that sense it helped. Being neighbors. So, uh, right when I moved in, uh, they also welcomed us, uh, as neighbors in the, in the neighborhood. Nice. So that's how that sort of came to me pretty fast. But you're totally right. I mean, there are so many people around where I know the name of the dog, but not the name of the person.

50:04 Yeah. We're just like, oh, that's Chester's owner. Oh, okay. Or that's nachos owner. Yeah. That's how it works. Yeah. Yeah. Guys, thank you. Sorry. Go ahead Kurt. No, that, that, I, I really recognize what you're saying here. It's, uh, it took me a while before It was not Sandor neighbor, but it was Sandor in my phone. Yeah. Oh yeah. So the, the last name is what I, what I was, uh, thinking Andrew is, um. Uh, now that we have, uh, our launch coming up, yeah. It might be a nice idea to, to, uh, uh, host some of the, uh, participants in, in the podcast as well. I mean, absolutely. We are doing, we're doing some nice work there. They have some amazing stories to tell. Yes. So perhaps this could be a nice, uh, starting point as well, and, um, so that people can also get to know the founders, uh, the, yeah, the, the initiative takers, the scientists behind it.

50:51 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's something that, you know, we've discussed for quite some time and yeah. To be able to bring them on the podcast and to be able to get, help them get that exposure, and then for that Yeah. You know, interview to live on the, on the website and, uh, so that people can get to know them for, you know, for time and time. Like every time they come to the site, they can, they can read their founder story Yeah. And their story. Yeah. And the project story. So I think that's a, that's a, a, a definite. A bonus, uh, for, for everybody, you know, for myself, yeah. For you guys, for, for the, the project and for the people, um, that we're, that we're gonna be offering. So I think that's, that's always, that's always wonderful. I can't wait to do this. I can't wait to see the launch. Uh, yes. And we'll have you back on as we launch so that we can get people to participate and to, to really get in there.

51:32 But, uh, I wanna thank you both for, for coming on the podcast and sharing, sharing this story. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thank you for, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it was really nice, uh, to have this, uh, um, this opportunity. Absolutely. Thank you Barton Saer for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. That was great to have you on. Great to hear your founder's story. If you wanna know more about bian, you can go to bion B-A-L-E-A n.org. That's B-A-L-E-A-N. Dot org. Uh, you can check out this dynamic website, which is changing day by day, and it's something that I feel is very important for you to check out and look at, you know, in the future. This is not just now, but look at in October when they launch, but also in the future.

52:15 It's gonna be great to see how this platform is going to build and how it's going to grow as we go along. Some of the things I thought was really cool is, you know how both of these gentlemen. Evolved in their careers and evolved into doing something with meaning for them. Everybody has their own meaning. Everybody has their own purpose and everybody has something that's important to them. For Saunders and Bart, it was, Hey, let's do something great for the ocean. Let's do something meaningful for the ocean. And I think it was great that they're walking along the coastline. Walking with their dogs as I met through the dogs, as you know, I have two dogs that, you know, I meet a lot of people through here where I know more the dog's names than the owner's names. For most part, that's our neighborhood.

52:55 Uh, we have so many dogs, but you know that dogs bring people together. I'm telling you it's a great social aspect. And they're also great pets. They're great companions. They get. To be part of the family pretty quickly. But you know, it was really interesting how that brought these two individuals together. Fate brought them together in terms of moving in across the street from each other. They start talking, they start welcoming each other in the neighborhood, shows how community can grow something really great. And then they're like, let's look at something here. Let's look at the ocean. Where can we help the best? And it's not to say, Hey, we're just gonna start an organization. We're gonna put our own programs together. We're gonna just kind of bombard an already busy and cluttered field. But we're going to do something where it's like there are so many people who are doing great projects, they just need a little bit more support, or they need a lot of support.

53:37 Let's be able to provide that for them. Let's create a platform. We can provide that for 'em. Provide them with exposure, provide them with funding, give them the tools that they need to get both. And I think that's great. And I love the platform. I've loved my experience so far. Both of these guys and Bian and under their early adopters program, they have great vision, great insight, very collaborative, very friendly, which you don't get all the time, unfortunately, in this field, but we got it with them. So I wanted to have them on the podcast and be able to share those stories. And of course, we'll also share when they launch and we'll have them back on to talk about that. And. You know what kind of projects we can do. We'll also have some of the founders of these projects on to talk about their projects as well. So you'll get to know these individuals and projects that have teams.

54:19 So I think it'll be a lot of fun. So anyway, that's something to look forward to in the future, but I wanna thank you so much. If you have any questions or comments, you can put them in the comments below if you're watching this on YouTube, or you can just contact. Either on Instagram through DM at How to Protect the Ocean, or you can go to the website, speak up for blue.com/contact. If you feel out the form goes right to my email, I'd be more than happy to answer you back. I wanna thank you again for joining me and listening to this episode and all the other episodes that we've had. We've had a bump in numbers over the summer, especially on YouTube, which is great. And of course on audio is always wonderful to have everybody in the audience. We're expanding. We're building this community and growing this community for more people to learn about the oceans. Basically what we wanna do here is provide a resource for people who wanna learn more about the ocean and change how we can live for a better ocean.

55:06 That's the tagline. That's what we live by here. And I wanna thank you so much. So thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the True North Strong and Free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.