Shark Communication: Graduate Studies, Sharks Science, and TikTok with Kenzie Horton

1:00:00 Marine Biology is one of those careers where you are driven by passion. And on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, I'm going to be talking to marine biologist Kenzie Horton, who is here to talk about her drive and her passion and how it's become a huge part of her life and demonstrates it in her career as a marine biologist. She works for the state government in Florida. She is doing a master's at the same time on white sharks. She is doing science communication on TikTok to talk about everything surrounding marine biology and busting up those myths and giving you advice of what to wear and what not to wear while you're swimming in the ocean. I do not wear a sequined bikini because apparently that may or may not have been a thing. But she talks about a lot of stuff on today's episode and we're gonna find out by starting the show. Hey, everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I am your host Andrew Lewin. And this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.

1:01:03 I've got a very special guest today, Kenzie Horton, who is a marine biologist. I feel like she's, you know, she's been in the career for a while. She's been in the field for a while. And she's here to talk about her experience of how she got a job coming out of universities, the struggles that she had. But she's also here to talk about the passion that she has for marine biology, how she likes to educate people through science communication, how she's doing a master's and she wants to pursue academia, which she don't see a lot of people. A lot of people doing these days, but doing a PhD, becoming professor teaching, becoming an educator, it's all here. You have everything you need in, you know, what to know about a marine biologist. Kenzie is that formula and it is fun to learn her story, even stretching from her inspiration of her grandfather and his legacy and how that's come out in her passion for marine biology.

1:01:52 It is a great episode. I can't wait for you to see the interview. So here's the interview with Kenzie Horton talking about her career in marine biology. She's a great person to talk about science communication and doing a master's. She is amazing. You're going to love the interview. Enjoy and I will talk to you after. Hey, Kenzie. Welcome to the how to protect the ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about the ocean? Yes, I'm really excited. Thank you for having me. No problem. I am very excited as well. I've been you've been on the bucket list for the podcast for quite some time since I discovered you on TikTok in your videos. It's been a real treat to get to know you through through TikTok. But now we're really going to get to know each other through this through this podcast. And I'm very, very excited. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited because I get I want the audience to know who you are as well. Hopefully they'll follow you on on TikTok as well.

1:02:34 And we get to see what you're doing on those videos talking about sharks talking about the ocean, making sure people are doing the right things when they swim and wearing the right things when they swim. We'll talk about that in a second as well. But it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to it and really talking about, you know, the science communication that you're doing. But also you're doing something really special and it doesn't happen often. You're working full time in. You know, the field of marine biology, but you're also doing graduate work in the field of marine biology at the same time. I don't know how you do it. We're going to find out today. I can't wait before we do. I want you to let the audience know who you are and what you do.

1:03:15 Awesome. Yeah. So my name is Kenzie Horton. I'm a fisheries biologist with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission in Florida. But I also am a full time grad student at Jacksonville University where I studied the movements of white sharks in their overwintering residency phase in the Carolinas region. So full time work with fisheries biologists with the state agency as well as full time work with Jackson University. But it's really unique because the FWC office that I work in is actually in the marine science research Institute on Jay's campus. So everything is in one building. You have hit the perfect note there because that is like you're able to do the work and do your masters at the same time, which I love. I think that that's that's how you have to marry it.

1:03:57 Right. And we'll get into that a little bit more. But that's really the key so that you don't go crazy. You know what I mean? Like doing two separate projects is is going to be very difficult. Having this. I think that's that's wonderful. We're going to dive into that. I want to get to know you a little bit more. You know, we all all marine biologists have a story of how we got into to marine biology. I want to hear your story. I want the audience to hear your story because I've read a little bit about it. It's quite quite special. Can you just talk about how you got interested? Like what was that factor that made you interested in the ocean? Yeah. So I mentioned I'm in Florida right now, but I was born and raised in Florida. I grew up in Orlando, so central Florida. But every year my parents and I would take a family vacation down to Key West and we'd always go snorkeling.

1:04:41 And I fell in love with every all the fish and everything in the reefs. And it was right when I was in Florida. And it was right when underwater disposable cameras were becoming popular. And so I saved my allowance when I had this little piggy bank all year. I find change in the couch for my my dad's you know that you'd sit down and his change would fall to the couch and I get all those change. And then I would go and I would get my money for it. And that'd be my allowance money for this trip. And I bought a fish identification book to take down with me and I was so excited. And so I spent the entire eight hour drive reading through this book, you know, not understanding some of it, but then I was very young. So half the words I was were jargon to me, but I was looking at the pretty pictures and trying to learn as much as I could.

1:05:23 And when we were down there, I started taking pictures of all these fish and playing the matching game in this fish ID book. And I just became so in love with just trying to figure out what they were. And I would read every bit of information I could understand about these fish. And then I would go and tell my parents about it. And then we would go out snorkeling and I would come up to the surface and I'd be like, Hey, did you see that blue parrotfish? You know, blue parrotfish, you know, eats, you know, you know, you can hear it. It has a beak and it's eating, you know, organisms off the coral. I would I would just go into these spules as a kid talking about, you know, all the different fish I was seeing. And I subconsciously at that age kind of knew that was going to be my progression. I think my parents really knew that that was what the rest of my life was going to look like.

1:06:06 And I kind of like point it probably started at like four or five and went up to like, I mean, I mean, yeah, it was we went every year and every year I would learn something new and I would find new fish. And, you know, there we went to the dry tour to guess and I'll never forget. I actually have a couple of hogfish. So hogfish have become one of my favorite fish because of this one moment. I dove down and it was sitting there and it opened and they had a very large mouth and it freaked me out for a second when I was a kid. So I swam to the surface and I was panicking. My mom was panicking. She couldn't figure out what was going on. And I tried to tell her this fish yawned at me and had these giant teeth and they had two, you know, giant canines by the time I didn't know.

1:06:47 And so we get back, you know, back to the hotel and I'm flipping through the book trying to find this fish and she's like, no, no, it doesn't have any teeth. It's you know, but don't worry about it. And she was just trying to calm me down. She knew what it was, but she was trying to calm me down. She was like, don't worry. And then I find it and I said, you know, too large canines. I'm pointing to the book and I'm like, see, they have teeth. I'm not crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I did that for so many years. And, you know, not realizing that my life would end up being just that. And and another part was like I was really I always love, you know, the movies like the Living Seas.

1:07:30 That was I was mesmerized by that. I was it talked about all these different aspects of the marine science world and it, you know, explore, you know, more uncharted areas. And I just remember I would watch that and I, you know, the sting soundtrack, you know, even to this day, I'll listen to that song fragile by sting. And I'm like transported back to being a kid sitting in front of the TV watching this. So I was influenced by so many different things. And one of that's really deeply connected to me is my grandfather. I think I mentioned this briefly in our in my email to you. Yes. But my grandfather was a submariner with the US Navy. They were coming back from the Mediterranean and the Navy lost communication with them.

1:08:10 They're about a day out of Norfolk. They're about 100 miles, I think, southwest of the Azores. And it was on May 22nd and they lost all communication. And it wasn't until about a week later that they were officially announced lost at sea. My mother was two years old. My uncle was five. So my grandmother had two very young children. Yeah. And so it was very hard for her. And she never remarried. She always wore her wedding ring. But she always talked so fondly about him. And I know, like, we've always stayed connected through memorial groups through with the scorpion. That was the sub that he was on. And she'd always tell me stories growing up of how much he loved the sea and he loved history. And he was planning this sailing trip around the world.

1:08:57 And he had these maps and he was chartering it. He had a sex that he was learning how to navigate using the stars. I actually still have. I actually have his the sex that he used. He was trying to learn on. And she always told me that I had his spirit. She's always said that I feel like I'm talking to George again. She's like, when I talk to you and I see how you light up when you talk about the ocean and you're talking about these fish, she's like, I see him through you. And so that growing up and not knowing this person and knowing that I would have loved this person, we would have been two peas in a pod, but just still feeling connected to someone I've never met. But because we shared so many similar interests and loves for the ocean and learning and history and just being surrounded by the ocean. So I think with all those factors of just growing up and being surrounded by the ocean and the sea and learning, my natural progression into marine science was just always going to be there. And I knew that that was my passion. You know, I always say, you know, you never work a day in your life if you truly love what you do. And I truly love what I do.

1:10:03 I do every day. You know, there are days when I've been in the mud and I'm looking at myself going, what am I doing? Why am I here? But then there are days I'm not at sea and I've been out for days on end and it's a beautiful sunset. And I'm just sitting there looking out and I'm 100 miles offshore and the stars come out at night. And I'm like, wow, this is my job. I am getting paid to do what people pay to do. And I get to see things that people don't normally get to see or interact with animals that you don't normally get to interact with. So that's just kind of how my life has led me up into this point. So I think I'm very fortunate in that. But that's kind of my story.

1:10:47 And I feel like that's why I'm here. Well, I love and I love it. I love you can obviously see the passion, you know, through just the story that you told it. It's it's amazing. It's shared by a lot of marine biologists like who get to the point where you're at, which is not easy. Let's be honest. It's not an easy road. You know, we talk about passion. We talk about how that takes you. And it does take you far. It does take you through the hard times. It does take you through the nicest studying the staying up late. The long days at sea. Those are never easy. You know, sometimes the sea works with you. And sometimes it works against you and it can be dangerous and you know, you have to be careful. And so there's a lot of things that go with the job, like any job where there's some good days and some bad days and so forth. But to get to where you are, like I mentioned before, is not easy. You know, the schooling is can be difficult.

1:11:37 Just getting in to university in college can be difficult. Going through college, you know, in a marine biology program is difficult, right? Getting that job afterwards is not easy. You know, you have to be vigilant. You have to be connected. You know, you have to have a network. I talk about this all the time. Was there any knowing since you were like four or five that you had this passion in you? I had it when I was 14. You know, that's when I realized like I want to be marine biologist. Were there any points in that time where you wavered, you know, once you discovered that, hey, well, I guess the first thing when did you discover that you could do this for a living and get paid to do this? And then were there any those at any point in time during schooling, whether it be high school, whether it be university that you struggled at and you were like, maybe this isn't for me.

1:12:28 I would say there was never a time that I was like, this is not for me, but there were times where I thought, can I really do this? You know, and I found out early on is my parents, you know, they were my, you know, my dad was in the Navy. So my parents grew up around the ocean. So they I knew that jobs in the marine world were there. I didn't know how many I didn't learn about how vast the industry really is. You know, you always think about a dolphin trainer or, you know, being a dolphin trainer. Or, you know, being working in aquarium, which are amazing positions, but those the only two that when you grow up that you think of and they don't they don't tell you all the small, you know, that you could be working with just plankton, you'd be working with mollus. You could go into the private sector, you could be an academia. There's so many things that you just aren't aware of unless you are exposed to that.

1:13:17 And that usually happens in university. So I didn't know about options in the marine science world until high school and into university. But I will say that I have had many people, not necessarily family, just people that were outside or I would talk to them about like my jobs or even people in college and in some in high school and I would be like, Yeah, I really want to be a marine biologist and they go, so does everyone else find something else. You know, it's every nineties child, you know, dream with your Lisa Frank dolphin folders, you know, everyone wants to be a marine biologist. And and so I think a lot of people didn't realize that, you know, didn't really know my backstory and just how I grew up.

1:14:00 You know, that was what everyone wanted to do as a kid, and especially in Florida. So, so I think hearing that early on wasn't too bad, but it was really when I got into university when I had some people that I, you know, were, were in the, you know, professors and they would be like, kind of warning you against it because it doesn't pay all that well. I mean, the main thing is marine, marine science is usually underfunded. You're always applying for grants. You're always trying to find funding. And so finding stable funds and stable grants, especially in academia is very difficult. So they always worry about that, like, Hey, you might not have an, you know, if you go into finance, if you go into business, you go into, you know, marketing accounting, you're going to have a salary, you're going to have a set paycheck, you know, you know, no matter what, nothing is necessarily changing per se.

1:14:53 But in marine science, depending on what sector you're in, you know, you're kind of reliant on your grants, you're reliant on the funding coming in. And so there is that level of uncertainty is, you know, am I going to have money in a year? You know, is this project going to be funded in the next few years? Like, yeah, right now, it's great. But when I have, when it's up and I need to reapply, is it going to be as readily available? So those are the things I think people will warning me about that you don't, again, truly know until you're really in it. But there was a few times where I was, I would say, like, discourage where I was like, I'm a little nervous. But there's a few times that people will be like, especially with shark biology, everyone wants to work for sharks.

1:15:35 They are the charismatic megafauna, you know, especially with all the TV shows, they, they get all you know, they're the shiny, the, you know, the impressive things, which they are, but everyone wants to do it. And so as you move through the field, you get people that are like, find backup plans. You know, and, and, you know, everyone that I, you know, on your other podcast, like the Beyond Jaws one, you know, everyone's always like, my path to sharks was never a direct line. And there may be a handful. There's always the few that just were able to, to do it. But it's usually some windy road. And so I think a lot of people were trying to tell me that and, you know, when you're early on in your career, you think, well, if I want to work for sharks, everything has to be sharks. Or I want to work with, you know, this certain type of fish, everything has to be this. Otherwise, I'm not going to be an expert in this. But the reality of it is, is you're more well rounded when you can kind of move in between animals or, you know, just different projects that might not be like, I said, I'm my most of my work is in fisheries. It's not necessarily like, quote unquote, shark biology. But I've kind of been able to maneuver my way and I've gone back to sharks.

1:16:46 So I think the moment there was a few times early on where I was discouraged, where I was thinking, well, I'm going to do this. I was discouraged, where I was thinking that, oh, you know, maybe I'll never get a chance to work with sharks. I'll never get a chance to be in this field because, you know, everything seems so uncertain. But I just kind of use those things as tournament of motivators when people were like, I don't think you can do it. And I was like, you know what? I can do it. And I'm going to do it. I like that. And in some way, you kind of have to prove people wrong because like, look, anytime you mention anything about marine biology or really any kind of job as a young person, right? People, there's always going to be doubters. So like, is this what you really want to do? Like, yeah, it seems fun to be out on the ocean and diving and, you know, sampling and all that kind of stuff being out in the sun.

1:17:30 But is it really like, is it stable enough? Can you have a good career like you would as a lawyer, as a doctor, as a marketer, a business person and all that stuff? And you always get that negative talk, right? And I always tell people, I had a friend of mine, I presented in front of his class. And one of the classmates was just like, yeah, like, how do you like, how do you deal with that? And I'm just like, if you want it, go for it. Like, try it. You're young. Try it. Like, if it doesn't work out, pivot. You can always go back to school or you can always do something and and work with something like you have. You'll have a degree. You'll have a university degree and you'll be able to pivot. I've done it a couple of times.

1:18:10 I'm doing it right now and you'll be able to figure it out. But you got to try it or else you're just going to regret it for the rest of your life. Right. And it's just you have to almost tell them it like throw it back in their face like, you know what, I'm doing it. And this is and I'm having a blast. You know, you're clearly having a blast doing this type of work. And you can just be like, look, I'm out. I'm out in the sun getting paid to do this. You know, this is a lot of fun. I'm learning a lot. And I feel as though there is. And you can answer this too. For me, there's a lot more to marine biology than just having a stable income. Obviously that matters. But if you look at any job, nothing stable these days, you can get laid off. Whether you're in these days, whether you're in the private sector or government, which used to be stable and it doesn't matter where you're from in whatever country, this can happen. So you never know what's going to be secure. You might as well do something you love or else you're not going to love. Life is going to be boring. And so I feel like you're going to be like, do you feel in a way like you got to just try it?

1:19:10 Oh, 100%. I mean, that was kind of what my my thought process was, was why not? If I don't try it, I'll never know if I get it. But if I try and I get it, then it was all worth it. And if not, I'd learn something along the way. It was a fun journey. And I can say I tried. And there's no regret later on and being like, well, you know, I probably should have tried it, you know, who knows? I would rather just give it a shot, give it the best I can and just see where it goes. Yeah, I love that. I love that aspect. You know, working in fisheries and working in marine biology is always fun. And in science, just in general, it's fun because like I've talked to a lot of people, whether it be on this podcast or the Beyond Jaws podcast, where I'm not like, there's some people who have gone through their career.

1:19:59 They've gone through like, you know, some of the people we've had, like they've been in 35 years plus of fisheries or marine biology or sharks. Or whatever that might be. But some of the pivots that they've taken within the field have really come from like a question, like a scientific question, like they want to know more about predator prey dynamics. They want to know more about like conservation or exploring how many how many species can they identify and discover, right? As my co host does Dr. David Ebert. Do you have one of those? Like, is there something that I know you're doing a master. So that's probably the most important thing. I'm a master. So that's probably your focus right now. But overall, is there are there specific questions that you're curious about that will that will drive you whether you're working on sharks or fish or mammals or whatever?

1:20:47 I wouldn't say like a specific question to a project. I mean, I have tons of those. But in a general sense, I think it's and I think it comes with everyone else. And if people you've interviewed, it starts with like a passion. Like, we obviously love this. And there's something that draws us to it. So we have a connection with it. And then it's the curiosity part, you know, we, when we see how many questions you can ask. And it's that thing where it's like, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And I think that's the exciting part about science and a part of us that gets excited when we're like, you know, we learn more and then we're like, Oh, well, what about this? Well, what about that? How can this happen? So the questions start pouring in. And I think that is the excitement part. And it draws us into more and more projects. And it makes us want to do more and more projects.

1:21:30 And it makes us want to do more and more work. Because we want to just understand our world, you know, as, as things are kind of constantly changing with the environment. And, you know, we want to understand these changes. And if we start now, we've done a really good job, you know, the past few decades, you know, in the future, you know, hopefully, we'll have these long-term datasets that, you know, we can watch these changes through time and understand these environmental changes. You know, we talk about climate change all the time. You know, it's so hard to look at climate change on such a small scale, you know. needs such a long term. So we get, I think as a scientist, we get excited because if we start things now for the future generations, we can have these data sets, we can watch them change.

1:22:11 So those big picture questions that we are currently trying to ask and answer, we might not be able to answer in our lifetime, but we're setting it up for the future to be able to answer those questions. So I think that's also, it's like, we're trying to make our world a better place. It starts at a curiosity of just learning more, but then it's also that drive to wanting to conserve and protect what we have now and then make the world better for the future generations. I love that. That's awesome. I love that motto. Like just figure out how to make the world better. Like no matter what, like just figure it out. And you have these certain questions. I mean, I know as a marine biologist, we always have questions.

1:23:00 She wants to go into wildlife biology. I'm like, she's not marine biology. I'm like, nobody's perfect. That's fine. I get it. You can go on land animals, but now I'm starting to like think about it. I'm starting to, we're starting to ask each other questions. Like, I wonder what would happen to this. How would we design the study to figure it out? So introducing like statistics and all that kind of stuff. So it's a lot of fun to even just think about those questions and talking about school, like you're working full time. You had your undergraduate degree, you get this job. It's wonderful. What made you decide to have this crazy idea of going back to school? What was the trigger for that? Like what made you ignite that? Oh, I want to go back. And did you always want to go back for graduate school?

1:23:40 I'd always wanted to go back. I definitely took an untraditional route. So I graduated in 2016 with my undergraduate and then I got my job and I was working there. And I know I wanted to go back, but I really wanted to get some real world like experience in the field. And I was trying to also set myself apart from some of the other applicants. I was like, no going into marine science, especially when you're going into grad school, you have to be competitive. You know, there's a lot of people and there's a lot of amazing, smart people. So I was trying to find a way to set myself apart. So my thought process was, I'm going to take some time off. I'm going to kind of reframe myself, kind of get back into the mindset. I'm going to work as hard as I can, learn as much as I can through this job. And then I can go back to grad school and I can apply what I learned in my job to the grad school. And you know, maybe it'll help me because I'm these concepts are not just in the textbook.

1:24:32 I've, I've seen the concepts in real life. I've seen them applied. So I thought that that maybe would also just just help me in general. So I went back to grad school in 2021. And it was kind of during COVID when I kind of made this decision, like this is the time because what else was I going to do? I needed to study for the GRE and everything was closed. So I might as well buy the textbook and start studying. And so that was kind of that moment where I was like, all right, this is the time, like the world, even though this is terrible, it's kind of setting me up to kind of give me the right time to, to give myself to study, get into a university and kind of figure out, you know, the next steps from there. I think that's great. I mean, it's a great, it was a great time to do it because we did, everybody had extra time, right? We're either stuck at home or, you know, things are a little bit more limited to where you can go and whether you want to be limited or not, you know, everybody had that decision to make. And I think that's, I think it's a great opportunity when I always said like, when recessions hit and stuff like that, and you have the chance, like try and do something extra, go back to school, get it like a diploma or get like a degree or even get, you know, just go back and get like a project management, you know, diploma or whatever that is, certificate, and then try and just get a little higher in that education to set yourself apart.

1:25:46 I really like that, that, that knowledge before we just go into the, the graduates and how you balance that. Can you talk a little bit about like the methods you use to get your first job, like out of university? Because a lot of people struggle with getting that, that job, right? People all the times, like I've just graduated, I've undergrad, I don't necessarily want to go back to grad, to do a graduate degree, but God, I can't get, like, I can't get somebody to answer my, my, to my application. Like I can't get an interview. Did you do anything that, that you particularly like realized like, Oh, this actually really helped? Or did you have a network that helped you get that job? Like what did you feel you did to get that, that interview to get that job? So a few things.

1:26:29 First off, I will say, I also struggled. I, I had two years where I, I graduated, I got my degree, and I was actively searching for jobs. I was bartending at the time, I was working odd jobs and, you know, save up some money. And, you know, there was a point where I got, I got discouraged, but I had reached out, I had some networks I created during my undergrad, I was, I was very involved in the university and biology club. And I, you know, I was an officer in there and I had, you know, I did undergrad research. So I had a lot of connections, and obviously people had moved on, but I started reaching out to people. And a friend of mine, Jordy, who actually worked for the agency, I reached out to her and we were talking. And she said that there, this group was looking for volunteers. And I was, I was fortunate enough to have, you know, the, I guess the network within the area, but also have being able to volunteer. And I know, I always say the best way to really get a job, especially in this field is volunteer. But even that I know, you know, it's privileged in itself because not everyone can work for free. I mean, it's so hard because, you know, I always say even just a few hours a day, if you can, if you can find it, is better than nothing. I was able, I kind of just gave up my weekends. So I was bartending the weekends, but my quote unquote weekends during the day, I just volunteered. So I volunteered for about six to eight hours a day for two times a week for a few months. And it was basically just training for the job. So I

1:28:00 always tell people, I'm like, if you can volunteer at several different places, if you don't really know what you want to do, and you have the ability, try to find some places and you know, give it a month or a few months, or just let them know that you're just trying to figure out some things, but you want to, you know, give them your time and learn and learn from them. But just explore, like the time to volunteer is a time to explore and you can figure out if you, you know, if you want to be a, you know, a zookeeper, if you want to work in the aquariums, you want to do husbandry. For me, I, you know, I did an internship and I realized that husbandry full time wasn't for me. I loved husbandry, but just full time, I wanted, I wanted more research. So I knew that I needed to add that in there. But I wouldn't have known unless I tried. So I think doing the internships and volunteering was just, it set me up to figure out what I wanted to do. And it was also giving me skill sets that I could have then apply for the job applications and or give me an in with someone was once the job opened up. And if I was in an internship or volunteer position, I was basically trained for the job. So when I would instead of having to hire someone that had never been familiar with the, you know, their protocols and their procedures, I had been for months.

1:29:08 So it was a natural progression into a position. But I know, I know with like internships, I did one paid one through Mote Marine, it was a USF Mote Marine, collab, but it was very similar to the REU program. I always tell like students that are undergrad. So I said, look at the REU program, it is a paid internship program funded through the NSF grants. And I was like, it's a great time because you get to do a full research project, you do a proposal, you do the research, you are basically a lab check that entire time, you go in the field, and you do a full poster presentation and basically like a manuscript at the end. Publishing is dependent on, you know, the, the advisor, but it gives you a chance to really see what research is from start to finish and, you know, determine if do you like research? I've had friends that have done it and been like, research isn't for me, I rather, you know, go into teaching or do consulting. So I always say like, those are the opportunities when you can get paid to do it, you can experience what research is like from a start to finish standpoint, and, and then be able to come out of that with a really good skill set and kind of set yourself up for these jobs because you've also broadened your network by just working with all these people.

1:30:24 Yeah, it's amazing. And also like when you work for like when you volunteer in a lab, like REU program or any other lab, you work on multiple projects, you learn how to use different instrumentation, you learn different methods of analysis and statistics and all that. And you really get that experience. So I love that. I love how you you volunteer. And I think, you know, volunteering has got a bad rap over the last decade, because there's been a lot of and I call them like predatory organizations where you have to pay to do the work for them, which I don't like, I really feel like that is detrimental to to not only being a marine biologist, but just the work in general. But I liked what you did is like, look, you and look, I'm not saying this is not easy. You worked all day in the field, and then you go bartend at night, like on the weekends.

1:31:09 That's not easy. I don't care what anybody says, that's tiring stuff. And that but you did it because you loved it, you did it because you wanted to do it. And that was the one way that you could do it. Obviously, if you could apply, get an interview and get the job right away, that would have been great too. But sometimes it just doesn't happen. For a lot of us, it just doesn't happen. Volunteering gives them the team a chance to get to know you. Are you good with the team? Do you fit in with the team? Are you hardworking? That shows you, you have a second, a long term interview that just that shows them what you can do. And I think and shows the passion going at that extra little mile and to put in, you know, a number of hours on the weekend for a couple of months or three or four months or whatever they that might be.

1:31:51 And then you get a job, it's worth it. And even if it's not, at least you got the experience and maybe get a reference from someone else, right? That's the power of networking and the power of putting yourself out there. And what was nice is you didn't have to pay to do it. You didn't have to go away to do it. It was right in your backyard. So that helped too. I think that that was really good. And then of course, showing how how good you are and how excited you are to do the work. And like I said, working in the field is never easy at all. And so to show that you can do it and you enjoy it, I think that's that's really that's really helpful. So that's great. So let's go back to masters and job. Those are not easy to do it. We talked earlier, you married them together by, you know, doing a project that I assume was part of some of the work that you were that you were doing, or maybe a project that was going to happen.

1:32:38 Can you just talk a little bit about how the project got married together with the masters? So it was kind of unintentional. I applied to the university, knowing that there was a field lab up in the region, but didn't know how it was gonna work. I was just going to make it work. However, I can, you know, if I was like, if I need to bump down to part time, or I was just gonna figure it out. Gotcha. But I really want I really liked the program at Jackson University. And I, again, it, I will say what drew me in was white sharks, you know, that not not very often you you get a chance to work with them. And I saw it and I was like, wow. And you know, I had been following it was her son as a kid, you know, watching them on TV and show and I was like, wow, a chance to work with these large individuals that I would never get a chance to even be near. And then, you know, working with this organization, where I could learn so much from so many different people and go to school, I was like, this this seems too good to be true.

1:33:37 But I was like, let me go for it. So I applied and I got in. And I will say with JU's, they you don't, you don't go in with a project, you spend your first semester meeting with professors and kind of figuring out projects, and what's a good fit for you and who is taking students. So that was also nerve racking, because I didn't know if I was gonna get the project that I necessarily, you know, wanted. So, but it worked out because I, and the main reason when I was thinking about this particular project and this university for grad school is I really wanted a data heavy thesis. So I had a lot of field work through my normal work, but I was more of a field biologist.

1:34:18 I was doing you know, some analysis. But it was more I'm more in the field, I'm in, in shore and offshore. But the analysis side, I could tell was where I was, I was lacking and I needed something for grad school. I was like, this is the time to kind of bring that up to make me more of a well rounded scientist. And so with that project, I didn't want to do that. And so with that project through what I was using the O search data, it is all tagged data. So it is all analyses. And so it worked out because the field time was more limited to certain expeditions based on time of year. But the nitty gritty of the thesis is sitting in front of a computer and learning R code and you know, manipulating the tag data and learning GIS. And that was what I wanted.

1:34:58 So it happened to work out that what I was looking for and what I wanted to do was to work out what I was doing. And so I was looking for a way to get that kind of a master's kind of presented itself at this university and kind of gave me a chance. And I think because I had the field experience prior that this was a good project for me and kind of gave me that ability to get this project because I most times in a master's you're trying to get that field experience, but I already had it. So this kind of set me up in a unique way. So my work has nothing to do with my master's thesis in any way. There's almost no overlap except for the university and my office is in the same building. That is the only overlap. And I didn't know they were in the same building until I showed up for orientation.

1:35:39 And I was walking down the hallway and I went, oh, I guess this is my new office. That's awesome. Well, and I think there's something to be said too, when you have all that field work experience, you know, you've worked at, so I assume, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you were probably working at your job for about seven or eight years. And then when you started your master's, is that what we're looking at 2016 in and around that time? 2016, I was about, I started technically in 2018. So I graduated the two years off 2018. I think it was like three and a half, three years. Yeah, which is good, a good amount of field experience, especially if you're in the field most of the time in Florida, you can be in the field all year long, not like here in Ontario, where if you're in the field all year long, you are miserable for about four to six months out of that year.

1:36:25 But regardless, you're in the field, you got lots of field experience, and then you get to do everything in front of a computer, right? You know, multiple monitors, looking at GIS, looking at spatial analysis. Now, again, I say field work is hard until you have to learn R code. It's probably, it's like for graduate students to like torture and watching graduate students go through it, because as I have in the past and gone through it myself, it is like crying frustrating at times. Like there's tears. It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter your gender. You're going to cry at some point for that computer because this code is not working, especially I bought the spatial analysis R code book before I learned R and I looked at it.

1:37:10 I'm like this, I can't, this is this is a different language. I don't know what this is. Like it's it is hard, right? I'm a GIS analyst as well. And so I learned a lot on that. And once you said, oh, yeah, I got tagged data like for decades of work for white sharks. That that got my GIS going like I was like, okay, this you're set. Like you've got a cool species obviously iconic and then being able to discover and identify like, you know, spatial patterns that we've discovered the last decade of this of this great white population that basically comes down to Jacksonville in the winter. And then and then goes is it Jacksonville as it come as far down as Jacksonville or is it go to Carolina's they go and well, so they're overwintering region ranges from the Carolina.

1:37:52 So the North Carolina, especially out of the outer banks all the way along Florida into the Gulf so they can even go to the Gulf. Yeah, the furthest point and through the research tag telemetry is almost near Texas. It's only a few points. A lot of them will hang out near Louisiana, but we do see them all the way. And recently they have found out about 50% of the tag individuals that they have actually make their way into the Gulf, which I didn't know.

1:38:38 I mean, we didn't know up until not that long ago. And then as more tag data, you know, has become readily available and the technologies have increased, we have better chance. And now we realize they're along Florida all throughout the winter. I mean, the Carolina's I mean, they use that coastline back and forth all the time. And and we don't. And the thing is, there's a lot of research being done in that New England and Nova Scotia and Newfoundland area. But this southeast part of the United States, we're beginning to get more data on. And that's kind of where my my thesis comes in is we're beginning to kind of get a better idea of how they're utilizing this area and to kind of understand their more fine scale movements. And then that we can begin to answer these questions and to understand how are they how are they using these areas?

1:39:19 What are they doing while they're here? Or what are their diving profiles look like? Because we don't have the information that we have here as they do up in the north. Kenzie, that is so freaking cool. Like if you think about like, I know we're geeking out here, but this is so cool to be like the white shark, like Jaws, you know, everybody's afraid of it. You know, there's a whole history behind it. We're hitting 50 years of Jaws in June this year. And you get to discover like in the 50th year of Jaws, that there's like what they're doing in this area that really we haven't known ever, you know, that is so cool because, you know, down the road.

1:39:59 10 years, 20 years down the road, you're going to tell people like, yeah, I helped figure this out. Like I was that was my master's. I mean, I my master's. I don't I mean, unfortunately, I don't have like amazing data in a sense that like I am not answering all of these like massively in question. But I like to think that I am a part of the stepping stones and the building blocks to kind of understanding their movements on down here. And so that's kind of cool to kind of be a part of that story. And as we learn more, I can know that like I played my part in that. So like what you were saying, yeah, but I wish I could answer some of these bigger like, you know, under like questions that we can always asking, you know, where are they mating? You know, what are they eating on down there?

1:40:39 Are they targeting certain areas? Are there hotspots? There's like so much we want to know. And that's like when you're talking about questions, like my mind just starts reeling. I'm like, even the master's, you know, my advisor, he always tells me he's like real it in real it. And he's like, remember, remember the scope of your master's because I, I would have turned it into a PhD too quickly. I mind you. I would I'm trying to go for a PhD, but I mean, not at the university. They don't have a PhD, but but he I was naturally just turning it into and I, you know, the curiosity there, which is great. But again, you have to like reel yourself in or remind yourself, like focus on your questions at hand because when you have too many questions, you're not you're never going to answer anything because you have so many going on.

1:41:21 You have to like focus at like the very the foundation, get that done. And then if more projects come out of that, great. But let's get the masters. Let's get that that foundation project done and then we can go from there. It's the research ADHD. I think every student I went through it. Every student goes because you're like you're asking all these questions like what about this? What about this? Can we figure out this and then every supervisor is like, hold on a second. Like let's focus on the on finishing your master's. Then we'll you know, we'll discuss other papers and other questions. And I think it's awesome. Like it's awesome to see because that's when the passion hits, right? That's when you know, like research is for me like research is is here. Like I've hit the jackpot in terms of what I want to learn and you know, what I want to find out and what I want to tell the world like the story to tell the world.

1:42:04 It is a story is essentially what you're saying, but you're using math to kind of figure it out, you know, and geolocation to to figure it out. So I just love that. I think it's cool. And and and to be honest, like speaking of storytelling, you're doing this. You're doing a full time job. You're doing a master's and then you've taken it upon yourself to be like, hey, yeah, let's talk about it. Let's talk about to the public. Like, let's just go on social media and I'll just I'll, you know, riff on some videos and I'll just publish them so that people can get to know one what I do. But also what I love what you were doing with your parents back when you were four or five years old snorkeling in the keys and being like, hey, have you seen this like, you know, blue parrotfish? Like it does. It eats algae and it does this.

1:42:44 You're telling that to to the people. Obviously, you're busy with a lot of things. What made you decide to be like, look, I'm going to start talking about not only the work that I'm doing, but also just science in general and marine biology and ocean in general. There's a few things. One is more of just a funnier reason is because I always said I love learning. I think it's just in all of us scientists. But, you know, we'll be in a conversation and someone's talking about something and then I know a fun fact and I'm like, oh, fun fact. And so like I love just like talking about things that I found out, you know, if it's through a paper or, you know, news article or, you know, journal, like I I love to just share the information.

1:43:27 Some, you know, my friends share a similar interest. And so we always kind of do this back and forth. And I thought about why not just do this to the everyday public? And I and I do it with like my friends and family who are not even in this field. And, you know, I also and I start chatting and next thing I know, like I've given a full 45 minute lecture on some random topic. And I was like, why don't I just do this for for everyone? You know, what why don't I like make this accessible? And I, you know, I think, you know, I always felt education is so important because it was so inspiring to me. And I, you know, I had teachers growing up that made science fun and engaging.

1:44:09 And I always wanted to kind of be a part of that because I feel like when science, it can be boring. It can be tough. It can be frustrating. But I think when you make it fun and engaging and you get excited about things, you're going to want to learn more. And I think that's so important is like, again, fostering this curiosity, even even doesn't have to be about marine science, but just in general, like just always questioning and asking and looking at the world and, you know, through different eyes and, you know, different perspectives. So I kind of really wanted to one, just have fun with it, but also just bring out fun facts because, you know, sometimes I have a bunch of fun facts about random fish that people have never heard of and then they get excited and they're like, oh, I've never heard about what's that fish.

1:44:51 And I'm hoping that by kind of getting them excited and, you know, showing them something that they've never seen before, that they're more likely to go research it themselves or tell someone else about it. Or when they see, you know, an article or, you know, here, you know, around town, they'll be like, Oh, I actually have a fun fact about that. And then they'll start talking. So it just helps spread education and knowledge, but I think it's just, it's so vital right now. And I just, and again, and making it accessible because, you know, marine science can be so limiting, just, you know, certain groups or, you know, especially being around Florida, like a lot of people in, you know, in the middle of the United States and landlocked states that, you know, don't have access to the beach 30 minutes down the road. And so some of these marine science classes aren't available because the water is not there. And so it's only when they come down in these states. But when with social media, we have a way to access the entire world.

1:45:40 And so it's, it's always good to kind of just put it out there. And so that was kind of my thought process was, I love talking about science. I love educating people. Why not do it through social media and use the Internet as like the best educational tool that there is right now. You are preaching to the choir, my friend, you are preaching to the choir. And I love that, though. But I think that's the thing is it's fun for you. Again, it's fun for you. You're already doing it with your family and friends. Right. And maybe after a while, your family and friends like, okay, can do like, hold your horses. That's happened all the time. My wife will just like glaze over and be like, okay, Andrew, get it out of your system and move on. But that's the thing. You go to people like you don't know who you're gonna who you're gonna do. So is that what like when you like, what was the goal?

1:46:22 Because because like, let's be honest, like social media is its own thing. Content is not a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's content creation is its own thing. People make their living off of content creation. Some even that are like marine biology just make like, you know, they'll have like, there's a creator fund for each platform and stuff. And they could make money off of this. What was your goal when you start, like you pick tick tock, right? Obviously, like I assume pandemic tick tock started to blow up. You started to see it like, Hey, let's start using it. It's a fun platform. What was the goal when you first started was it to get as many followers as possible? Was it get like big, that kind of stuff? What was the goal? So I mean, it's natural to want followers and a big following, but that wasn't the push. That wasn't the reasoning behind it. The followers would just be an added bonus to get the information out to a broader audience. I just wanted to promote science. I just wanted to talk. I wanted to get it out there. And I always worry about the being on social. I was so skeptical about doing this for so long.

1:47:26 So I never wanted someone to think that I was doing it strictly for the money or to be some type of influencer personality. That's not the goal. If they were something to come up because of being on social media, great, that's just a bonus. But that's not the root of it. That's not the reason why I was doing it. I wanted to do it because I loved it. And I think, you know, we have misinformation can be spread so easily. So I want to be a part of the person, you know, people that are spreading correct information and showing people how to how to research how to look for, you know, information that's, you know, incorrect, or be able to question things. You'd be like, well, you know, that sounds a little odd.

1:48:06 Let me look this up, you know, or oh, that was a that's a neat fact. Let me look this up. So I just wanted to be part of the push to just promote more learning. And so like the follower thing, you know, I picked TikTok just because it was so easily accessible to so many people without necessarily having to have followers, like if you have a Facebook or Instagram, they usually have to follow you for you to pop up on on their on their like page or their feed. But with TikTok, they can follow you so they can see more of your stuff, but your videos just get sent out to the world. And so I think that will experiment in front of everybody. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's I mean, it's nerve wracking knowing that you're putting yourself out there for millions of people to critique and criticize and, you know, question you. And so you have to like, take that into consideration.

1:48:58 You're like, are you prepared for people to question you, you know, or they might make fun of you, you know, for whatever reason. So you kind of have it's like a mental preparation. But also, there was another part of it that I thought it'd be a good practice for me. You know, as a scientist and educator, I always feel like it's important to be able to relay science to all audiences. So we go to conferences, and we use all the scientific jargon, and we talk to people that are experts in what we do. And that's great. But we need to be able to take that to the public, because if the public gets excited, we get more people excited. That means usually more funding for us to do more work. That's true. So when more people know about it, more people are like, Well, yeah, I'll donate to that. Or yeah, I'm more likely to help pay for that. Or I'm more, you know, it creates just a better system overall.

1:49:47 Yeah. But I just, I, I think being able to also explain concepts to experts, to the general public, and to children, just makes almost solidifies concepts in your head and makes you understand like, do I actually really know what I'm talking about? I know that sounds weird to say, but you know, you get almost regurgitating some of these textbook or, you know, scientific article sentences, because you're like, All right, this is what it says. And you just say it, and you state it. And that's just the fact. But it's not until you're talking to everyday people that don't work in that, I don't use those types of terms, or, you know, might not know the anatomy of sharks and fish. And so you're talking about, you know, cartilaginous, you know, fish and a plasma branks, you know, looking at the highway, highway arch, they don't know what that means. So being able to take those higher level concepts that you've become an expert in, and then relay them to the general public in a way that they can understand and get excited about was kind of also that push where it's like, it also helps me practice as a scientist to really understand the concepts that I'm learning, and also researching.

1:50:55 So there were so many points to it, but none of it really ever came from, I want to get famous, and I want more followers. That was never, no, I mean, I don't even have that many followers. And that's fine. I just love doing it. And I think that if, and I always thought, is my duty as a scientist to educate people and put science out there for everyone. And so I thought, you know, if I am able to inspire or educate a handful of people, even one person, if one person got inspired, inspired by a video I made, then I have done my duty as an educator, as a scientist to, you know, help future generations or, you know, inspire someone else to kind of learn more or pursue a career.

1:51:37 I love that. I love that. And to kind of push back on your like, I don't have many followers. I hear this a lot from a lot of people, right? It's like, I don't know. And I say the same thing. I don't have a lot of followers. Somebody told me this one time, because like, when I first started the podcast, I would get like, maybe 10 downloads, you know, off the bat, and you're like, Oh, nobody's listening to my stuff. Then I get like 50 downloads, I'm still complaining, because I, you know, hear other Joe Rogan gets a million and all this, and everybody thinks that, Oh, I should be getting that. Somebody told me this, if you put like, if you have 100 followers, 100 downloads, and you put 100 people in a classroom, that's the standing room only in a classroom, right? Like, that's, that's a huge amount of people when you're presenting in front of a classroom, like in person. I'm looking at your, your, your profile here on TikTok, you have at this point, you have 691. And I'm sure that's increasing followers. That's a lecture hall.

1:52:28 That's almost two lecture halls. That's a huge lecture hall of people that you're teaching each and every time you post that could potentially see it. And if you're on TikTok, as you mentioned, the amount is probably more than that, that are actually seeing your, your videos, right? Because it's not just to your followers, it's to everybody, you know, you just never know who you're being presented to. So I want you to think about that way too. I want everybody think about that. Like the audience here who are listening, I was like, you never know who's going to see you. You never know, like, what impact you might have. And I love that, that the thought of like, if I can just get one person to really get excited about the ocean, who knows what that person will do with that information, you just, never know. You never know who's listening. You never know what they're going to do. And I think that's the power of being a creator and, and talking about stuff. And we all get criticism. We all get bots. We all get people who take messages, you know, politically and all this kind of stuff. And they, they don't know really what they're talking about. I had a guy the other day on my, on, I forget what platform it was, but talking about the importance of, I did an episode a couple of weeks ago, talking about the importance of talking about the ocean, how important it is to talk to your friends and family.

1:53:35 As you know, right? You do it, you do the same thing. And the guy was like, well, who cares about the ocean? Like, there are so many homeless people in California. And I'm like, okay, yeah, totally get it. Like, that's not what we're talking about here. Like completely different issues, you know, but I get it. Like, it's, there's other people have other issues. But the, you know, and, and you just never know who you're getting to watch it, what they're going to comment. And you just have to like answer those properly. And, and, you know, I, I like to try and be nice to everybody. There's some, I'm a little more aggressive with. But every once in a while, you know, there's people who are just genuinely worried about other things in the world. And you're like, I get it. I, I responded. I was like, yeah, I hope you do something about it. Like, I would love to hear. I'd love to see what you create online to help with that homeless. Because that's obviously something that's important, but not what we're talking about here. So I appreciate the comment. But, you know, thank you.

1:54:23 Yeah, but that's, you know, but, but I've also had a lot of people who have changed their lives because of it. They've either gone to do a PhD or they've gone to change and start an organization and all that kind of stuff. So you just never know who's going to listen. And it's also cool. Some of the stories you cover, we just talked about this before we press record and I hope it's okay to talk about this. But one of your recent, I guess it was a series of episode, you did a couple of parts. They gave like four or five parts of this. Could you talk about this recent one? It got a lot of views, like almost 40,000 views on that first video. What was the scenario and why did you feel the need to comment? So it's all so ridiculous. And it always makes me laugh. What gets popular on the internet. And it's always this just strange thing. And it's always the one thing you least expect. You know, I was I think I was telling you before this, the videos that I put the time and effort to, you know, do their background research to find the good images, then to record and then to edit, you know, their hours of time and effort. You know, they get views, I get some comments. I'm like, Yeah, it's awesome. The one that I really wake up in the morning, do a response video to.

1:55:32 That took me five minutes maximum to do gets the most views. But the video was, and I must date this, this video, this statement is fake. It was a created statement. But at the time, I wasn't sure. Right. So this woman online stated that she was diving with sharks and was wearing a sequin bikini and had an encounter with the shark. And the internet lost its mind. You know, there's a lot of people that I was and I was I was kind of happy to see that. Everyone was like, What are you doing? You would you should never do that. You look like a giant fish. So I was happy to see that people were recognizing, Yeah, that's probably a bad idea. So I just commented one stating, Yes, everyone saying this is a bad idea. Yes, it is.

1:56:18 You know, the sequins reflect the light and they can mimic fish scales. And when you're diving with things that eat fish, you don't want to look like that. And I'm not saying just because she was wearing that, that initiative, you know, she did that fake interaction. Right. But you don't want to put yourself in any way, shape or form in harm or in a way that could create or allow the interaction to potentially happen. I'm gonna say it that way. Yeah. So you just want to be cognizant of what you're doing. Yeah. So I stated that one. Just don't wear that. I would suggest not wearing that. If you if you really want to wear it, wear a wetsuit or wear, you know, a sun shirt, wear something that takes away that shimes. I always say the same thing with jewelry does the same thing. You know, people go swimming in jewelry and I've actually had more closer interactions with barracuda than I have with sharks and I've swam with hundreds of sharks. But the few barracuda they, you know, again, I mentioned my bracelet keeping it on and you're sitting there holding it because that little bit of shine kind of looks like a fish scale. And again, even if it's not necessarily looking like a fish, it's something different in the environment that something is gonna be curious about and then go investigate it to figure out what is this? So you don't you don't want to draw that attention that that's not the attention you're looking for about being in the ocean. And you know, most times for shark badges, we're going to find sharks, but most people that are swimming in the ocean aren't wanting, they don't want to find them. So I made the video and I wanted to

1:57:48 make it a few part series. I wanted to want to address the video, but then I wanted to bring up some good points because it gave the perfect timing to talk about safe swim practices. You know, when you're going on the water, you have to, you know, you're going into another environment, you're going into basically the home of all these animals, including sharks, and you have to be aware of what you're doing and you want to make sure you are staying safe. You know, the reason we have those flags of the beach and we have lifeguards and we have all these signage, you know, just explaining the area is for information to make sure that you are safe as a swimmer when you when you make the decision to get in the water. And so I talked about, you know, not swimming near a fishing fishermen, you know, one, you don't want to get caught up in the line. They also have active bait.

1:58:33 That bait is in the water, trying to attract everything in that area. The last thing you want to do is be near something that's being attracted to that area. So, so you don't so that's just unsafe and they kind of fall on the same lines, peers, people are actively fishing all along those peers, you don't want to get caught up in the lines and also there's so much fish in the water that again, it's attracting everything and anything that air to that region, you don't want to be there. And then marinas, especially, you know, a lot of people don't think, well, people are not fishing at marinas, but a lot of fishermen come off their boats and fillet their fish and throw in the carcasses. And because after days and days of this fish and sharks and other marine animals realize this is an area for easy food. So they're more likely to hang out there and be in that area trying to get free food. If you are to get in that water, they when they hear at splash, they're not going to be like, Oh, wait, that's a person I don't want. They see that they're expecting what they've expected, you know, every day that it's a fish carcass and they can get in the water.

1:59:32 And they can eat it. So you can, you don't want to put yourself in a situation that could lead to a bad encounter. And then again, just like the sandbars and one that a lot of people don't realize is that sandbars are not a safe place to be. You know, if it's really shallow and your ankle deep and you can see everything around you, that's fine. But also getting to that sandbar, it usually drops off and there's a dip and the same thing, it falls off. And usually in those channels are a lot of bait fish runs. And what usually follow bait fish, larger fish, and sharks. Again, you don't want to put yourself in that situation while you are in the middle of a bait fish run while something is actively feeding. They're not targeting you, they're targeting that fish, but you are now caught up in that. And that's usually when those encounters happen. So I really wanted to highlight these examples and been like, Hey, you know, this is a bad scenario. I'm glad it was fake.

2:00:22 I'm glad she's okay. But let's put out some reminders of when you're in the ocean, you are in a new environment and you have to be aware of your surroundings. And also, talk to local people, a lot of people that go and travel, you know, there are certain areas I tell you not to swim because, you know, again, people could be filleting carcasses and, you know, putting these in the water. There could just be a lot of just fish. You just never know. And you want to make sure when you're traveling and you're going swimming in an area that's not a common swimming area that you know, that area is okay. And there's nothing in that area that could create a scenario that would be negative. So I just thought that was a good time to kind of bring up these points. And again, and I was so happy that those videos actually, did well. But it was funny that they took five minutes to make up just being like, Hey, don't do this, do this.

2:01:08 And you know, I'm glad she's safe. But just don't wear a sequin bikini. That's just that's just life lesson here. Just don't see in the ocean. But that's what I find so ironic, I think with a lot of people who, when we do stuff like this, when we do create content and we're scientists and we want to prepare, we want to make sure that one, we're factually correct, we double check, we confirm. And then we present something that's interesting. So we spend a lot of time putting together videos, whether they be three minute videos, 10 minute videos, 20 minute videos, whatever that might be. And then they never really take off the way we hope that they would. You know, you might get some views here. You get consistently good amount of views. But then every once in a while, you'll get one that's just like, Hey, like, I just want to comment on this. And then I just want to like, see what happens. And all of a sudden, 40K.

2:01:54 You know, views all of it. You're like, what are you kidding me? I spent five minutes talking about that. But I think the thing is, is like, what we don't understand sometimes a scientist is that and even communicators that people just want, like relevant content that's like you. That's that's different. But it's also just simple, simple things that we need to say, like, you know, you and I, if we had talked about this, just the two of us just being like, or other scientists around just been like, yeah, that was not what I would have done. You know, I would not have worn like a swim trunks that were sequence, like probably not the best idea. But to some people, like they want to know more about like why it's not a good like what, like what's the problem with that, you know, other than can't be very comfortable, to be honest, like a sequence bikini or any kind of being sweet that sequence.

2:02:36 And so like, you just, you get that like you start and then all of a sudden people are like, Oh, that's simple information. Okay, I can digest that, you know, no jargon, no facts, it's just, hey, just probably not a better good idea, set it in a nice way. You know, you're very calm, you had your coffee with you. I think that was coffee, coffee mug with you. You're just like, Okay, I'm just gonna, I got a comment on this. Like it was, it was a really like simplistic, informative, entertaining kind of video that I think people just get, get behind, right? Sometimes I think we go for so complicated that this, the simple videos are necessary to really, I guess like, because he had a good story to tell too, but it's like, it just hits people, you know, that emotion. I just love, love that aspect of it.

2:03:22 Right. You just, you just never know what's going to go, you know, especially in TikTok, you just, it can take off. He's a great person. He's a great person. He's a great person. He's a great person. You know, and I think that's what I want to say that I think like, you know, you're going to be very, very nice, very nice. I love it. It's a really, very, very nice. I think it's a great place to see people. You know, I think it's a very nice place to be, you know, you're going to within like minutes and you're just like, "What the heck happened?" It's awesome. But I love how you did that story and it was a number part and it was just, it got good views all the way through. And I just love that aspect. So as we kind of wrap up here, the science communication, I feel like it's never going to go away from you. Something that you've really done. What do you want to do? Like this is kind of the, you're just scratching the surface right now, I feel. Do you have any plans for science communication? Something that you want to be able to accomplish, try to manifest and put it out there for us. So a few things.

2:04:03 One, looking at a PhD to kind of continue to, you know, to go more into science and I would love to go into academia to, again, to kind of continue that science communication, you know, in the college classroom. And I also would like to be able to film my journey and also like with this podcast, you know, with the other people you've interviewed, you know, you show their journey and everyone's are either different, but there's always so there's similarities and people might be able to connect and be like, "Wow, okay, you know, I didn't get a job right away and neither did she, but she's doing this. So, you know, it's possible for me." So there's that aspect. So definitely a PhD and being able to show the journey and show the research and again, just show research that most people might not ever get a chance to see or didn't even know existed and get people excited. But with, in the meantime, I mean, the PhD search is a daunting one.

2:04:57 I've been working for hours on top of everything else. I was, you know, in between, I'm like looking at universities and, you know, looking at finding professors, but it's, it normally tells you how hard it is to really find someone that matches your research interests. Yeah. That also will give you a chance to broaden your skill set and get you a chance to, you know, work with something that you may have worked before or, you know, continue working with what you're working with. But, but, you know, I, with my, with my white sharks stuff, like I don't always have to do white sharks. I like the shark stuff, but I would like to, you know, expand on it, work another species or, you know, I like the tagging and telemetry stuff. So maybe continue that with something different and then just hone in the skill set, but use it for, you know, variety of animals and I can learn about different behaviors. So there's that. But in the meantime, I'm up for an election. So in the, in Florida, we have Florida Marine Science Educators Association. So it's an, it's an association for all the educators that teach marine science. I mean, things for all levels. I think primarily it's more like middle school and high school teachers in it. Yeah. But I'm up for the Northeast Regional Director position. And I feel like I have a pretty good chance because I'm the only person on the ballot for that.

2:06:09 So I'm so far, nobody else, but we just get to go. So, I mean, I think there's no one else running up against me. So I think I have a pretty good chance. Yeah. But a friend of mine, Chelsea Shaw, she's the President-elect. So she's starting this, this coming year. She reached out to me. We both had worked together in the past. And she'd asked me if I wanted to be a part of this. And, you know, part of me was a little nervous being like, do I add something else to my plate? Yeah. But it's education. And I'm like, I can spin this into my TikTok. And I already do a lot of education outreach events personally, myself. So I was like, this will just be an extension of that and kind of give me more chances or, you know, be able to reach a bigger audience in the educator circle. And so they just basically, I will be helping facilitate events in the area, putting out newsletters about events that are retained in marine science or education in the area, you know, facilitating conferences or just group meetups to make sure that you know, anyone in the area. And then it also kind of helps me in a way to have more of a board and leadership role that can, again, get me new experiences in that. So that's kind of like my, my short term and long term goals and what's currently kind of going on to continue this. So even though I'm a researcher, the education part, obviously, is so important to me. So this educator association kind of gives me that chance to do it on a bigger and again, at a professional

2:07:39 level, on top of just the fun TikToks. But I can also use my TikToks in this and promote both the association and just talk about everything. And I think everything is so linked together that I, I feel like this was a good move. And I hope that people can benefit from this. And I hope that I can bring something new to the table. And that they, you know, I can open the doors for some people or get people together that are like minded and making, you know, again, help the Northeast Florida portion, you know, of Florida to get just excited about marine science and get more people involved. I love it. I agree with you. I think it's working. I think you're doing it and you're getting bigger and bigger things. And I just love it. You know, this has been awesome to have you on the podcast. This is the first definitely not last time I'd like to have you on the podcast.

2:08:27 I'd love to have you back. And as you do more research, as you do more science communication, whether that be through TikToks, whether it be through like a regional area and having influence on how people, how kids are being educated. I think it's wonderful to be part of all that aspect. Because I think as as scientists, we have this this responsibility, not only to do really good research and really good science and conservation, we also have that ability with part of the conservation is to really connect with people. And I think you're doing that in a fantastic way. It's obviously working, whether you're talking about sequenced bikinis or you're talking about evolutionary advantages that fish can have. I just love it. I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. And, you know, if people want to get a hold of you, your TikTok is at Ken dot C's. So Ken Z's, but Ken dot C's will put the link in the show notes. Is there any other way that you want people to get a hold of you or?

2:09:20 In case TikTok gets banned for whatever reason, I'm currently in the United States and I know we're all the ones dealing with it. I'm on Blue Sky. And I think there's another it's called Skylight Social, the new one that just popped up. I just added it's linked to Blue Sky, so they're kind of connected. I will be also starting a educational like Instagram, same all the same handles. I can't can dot C's or Ken dot C's or Ken dash C's. So you can follow me on all the platforms on that way. I'll put all those links in the show notes and I want to thank you again, Kenzie, for coming on the podcast. It's been great. Thank you for having me. It was a great time. Thank you, Kenzie, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast and sharing your story with the audience. It was great to be able to hear how you started, where you're ending up now and where you're going to go in the future and your goals.

2:10:10 And I think it's amazing. I can't wait to see what you come up with. I can't wait to have you back on the podcast to talk more about sharks, more about fisheries, more about marine biology and science communication. It's all stuff that we love to talk about here on the podcast. I think it's really interesting just from a personal standpoint, our paths have been very similar just at different times. I'm older than her, much older than her. And we've had very similar sort of experiences learning GIS and working right after university and going back and doing graduate school. So we have that experience and we have that field experience. They were able to do a master's where we're looking at more data intense masters and research compared to field intense masters and research. And so I think it's really cool that we have that similar path.

2:10:52 Obviously, science communication path as well. We share. So it was really great to connect with her on that. And I just love to hear that type of story and to know that, you know what, not everybody has a unique path. I mean, this is unique in her own right. But it's very similar to a lot of us who are coming out and doing more science communication. I just love to see that and enjoying it. Not having like, you know, crazy goals of earning a ton of money becoming an influencer, just educating for one person so that they can understand the ocean a little bit better. And that's made her day. I just love that aspect. You know, just keeping it real, keeping it, you know, just right in front of you and just being like, I just want to talk about that. I'm going to do it anyway. I might as well do it on a platform where people can listen. And if they're looking for that type of resource, they've got it. So I'm going to put the links to Kenzie's TikTok to her new Instagram is coming out to blue sky in the show notes. Check it out. And I'd love to hear your comment on her career. You know, are you following a similar path?

2:11:46 Do you want to follow a similar path? Hit me up on Instagram at how to protect the ocean. Or you can hit me up in the comments. If you're watching this on YouTube, and I would love to hear your thoughts about all of this. So thank you so much, Kenzie, for your time. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the True North Strong and Free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.