Seafood Laws and Ocean Justice: How Legal Frameworks Shape the Future of Fisheries

1:00:00 Overfishing is a complex problem to solve. It's not something that we can solve overnight. Obviously, if we would have been able to, we would have done it by now. But there are a lot of layers within fisheries. There's the science portion, there's the advocacy portion, the activism portion, there's the fishing community portion, there's the recreational versus commercial, and even within the commercial, there's the artisanal versus industrialized. There are a lot of different layers within fisheries that make it really complex to solve. On top of that, there are laws that govern the way we manage everything in the ocean. Not necessarily the high seas, but there are that is coming, but there are laws within everybody's exclusive economic zone that could differ depending on the country or state, that could differ depending on where they are in the world.

1:00:44 And it could differ in the approach that they have to marine fisheries. And that's a lot to take in. And so it can be confusing to find out where these laws are going and how to work through these laws and how to make them better. And so I invited Ava Von Huchlum to the podcast to be able to discuss this. She is a legal professional passionate about making the seafood sector more responsible. She started an advisory firm called Natural Justice to support the sector with more diligent consideration of national and international law and policy and impacting seafood sustainably. We're going to talk to Ava about law and fisheries on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start the show.

1:01:26 Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host Andrew Lewin and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you could speak up for the ocean, what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. Not today's episode. We're going to be talking about the law and fisheries law of the sea and law of the fish. We're going to be talking to Ava van Hooklem who is someone who decided when she went to law school to choose governing fish instead of going to corporate law or going to criminal law as many others do. She decided to forego maybe the big bucks and to live a life of impact by looking after fisheries around the world and working with different governments, working with different organizations, working with different private ventures and companies to be able to discuss and be able to manage policy and law of fisheries internationally.

1:02:16 And I think that is something that we don't really get to discuss on this podcast. So it's really fun to be able to have someone with Ava's background and experience to come on the podcast and kind of take us through the law of the sea and the law of the fish to be able to like, what is law for fisheries and how is it managed? How can we make it better? What are the trends that we see? We go through all that in this interview with Ava. So here is the interview with Ava Van Hoeklem from Natural Justice. Enjoy and I'll talk to you after. Hey Ava, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about fisheries and the law? Always appreciate the invite. Love it. I love it. I'm super excited because it's not all every day that we get a professional law person here, you know, a law professional, especially around sustainability and the sea and around seafood, around fisheries.

1:03:03 I'm very excited to dive deep into, you know, what the laws are around and what's happened in the past, what was good, what was bad and kind of get into the trends of what's happening now and what's needed in the future. I think there's a lot of things that we can discuss today that we're going to discuss today that people don't realize what happens in fisheries that kind of gets hidden. It's not over like the talk, the talk of the town around fisheries. A lot of times when we talk about people just learning more about fisheries, we always hear about fishing communities, you know, fishermen, fishermen, women who are out there, you know, some people say, oh, everything's over fish. Some people, some fisheries are sustainable. There are groups out there that try and keep us sustainable and transparency is key.

1:03:44 So we're going to get into all of that stuff. But before we do, Eva, I want you to just let us know who you are and what you do. Yeah, thanks. And you're right. It is sometimes rather niche field to work in. I must say my fellow law students were definitely surprised when I said I was specializing in fish. Yeah, since most of them went into corporate law, contract law, all that stuff. But yeah, so my name is Eva van Hoeklum originally from the Netherlands and I own Natural Justice, which is a small consultancy and I work with clients globally and I specialize in really the intersection of law and fisheries. So I started about eight years ago with with the specialty.

1:04:27 And when I started, you know, you go to the usual suspects in terms of what law is relevant for fisheries. I really started with the sea fisheries law, trade law, environmental law. But now increasingly, I'm also looking more at some overlooked areas of law that I believe are really impacting our efforts to make fisheries more responsible, more equitable and linking this to the obligations that states have under international law of the sea and environmental law, etc. So, yeah, I'd be very happy to expand on that a little bit. And yeah, I'm really with that type of work, hoping to bring more focus on the role of states and fisheries management and the role of law in that as well as some more nuance sometimes where I feel like a lot of discussions around states is very much, they're unwilling.

1:05:20 They don't want to collaborate with this. They're not doing enough there. And I really just don't think it's that black and white. It's a very gray area. And there's a lot to explore there. So yeah, I do a lot of research in that intersection really of the fisheries sector practically and then the laws that impact it. I love it. I love it. I think that's that's wonderful. I can't wait to get into all of this. What you know, you talked a little bit at the beginning, like your classmates in law school were a little surprised when you decided to pick fish as something to focus on as your niche to focus on. Like we know lawyers get paid a lot of money when they go into corporate, they go into criminal law or whatever. And you see a lot. You see shows like suits and things like that all over the world.

1:06:03 You see these types of shows that come up because people are interested in the way lawyers speak and the way they do business and it's always like high-end stuff and they charge a lot for their hourly rate and all this kind of stuff. You decided to fish. You decided to choose in a sort of environmental law, but even more niche down from environmental law. What made you decide to follow that route in law school? Knowing that, you know, environmental law, maybe you don't get paid as much as corporate law, you know, now we don't think into finances, but it's definitely a very different way of doing things. So just love to know your rationale behind following that path. I love it, but love to know your rationale. Yeah, certainly.

1:06:44 And there's I think two stories I can tell you to illustrate that a little bit. So there's one that I tell a bit more often, but a little bit of background is I wanted to study law. I was about 12 years old when I decided I wanted to go to law school because I feel the law is really just the most tangible thing we have to protect people to protect the planet. And, you know, you get confronted at a young age, you realize the world is not a fair place. It's, you know, people need to be protected. And I've always seen the law as a way to make impact. So that's always been a very important motivator for me. And then I was initially really focused on working in areas that just came out of conflict or with refugees.

1:07:26 And so that's that's one story is that I actually went ahead and did this work. So I was living in Beirut and working in a very challenging area of the city there. And I was, you know, trying to do my part and supporting people that just came out of conflict and, you know, doing my work with humanitarian law, refugee law. And I realized I'm just not cut out for it. It's too damn hard. Like it's really I was like, I'm going to either get used to this, which is not a good option or but I cried myself to sleep every night. So one thing is kind of losing my career path that I was on. And then another thing is I took a big sailing trip.

1:08:10 So I had this crazy plan to make it from Amsterdam to Australia without catching a flight. And at some point, you have to jump on a boat. Right. So I did this in Malaysia. I found an Australian guy. He needed to bring back a sailing boat. And so I ended up sailing through Indonesia with him for two months. And we had like a lure out in the back. And all it was catching was plastic. And so that tells me, OK, there's there's an issue with plastic here. But more than that, it's where's all the fish. And we tried to buy a fish of fishermen. We saw fishermen that were just out there in boats for days, not enough food, not enough water. And it was very confrontational. It really made me realize that our oceans are not doing well.

1:08:55 And this is not just bad news for the oceans themselves, but you could see it's impacting people. And these people often didn't really have an alternative. What do you do if you live in a tiny island? Right. Right. There's no fish to catch. How are you going to feed your children? How are you going to create any livelihood? So that was, I think, really for me, the main push where whenever when I went back to law school to do my master's before I knew it, every essay I was writing was about fishery sector, whether it was the environmental law subjects where it made sense. But I did the same for trade law. I did the same for investment law, did the same for European law. I could always find an angle. And yeah, it just there was no way back, really, at that point, I think.

1:09:40 And every time you did those assignments, every time you focused on a paper on fisheries, whether it be through trade, whether it be through access or whatever that might be, what was your feeling every time you finish one? Because I know sometimes, you know, as a student, you you you follow a certain path and say you do a paper on something and it may not be the best interest, you know, and so you may not be like when you hand in, you're like, OK, I'm done with that kind of subject. But obviously, this is something that was continued your passion for it. So every time you hand in one of those papers, what was your feeling on that? Like, were there more questions that came from what you found? And I could research this more. Or was it just like, OK, maybe this is not like trade is not where I want to go.

1:10:21 Maybe it's somewhere else. Like, what was that that avenue? What was that feeling? Yeah, so I made deliberately made a combination between, you know, like growing up in in Europe, like it's almost impossible to go into a supermarket and not violate a human right one way or another. Like, it's it's really sad. We all know that the food industry is are just not in a great shape. Right. And I knew this about chocolate. I knew this about coffee. And then I was learning more about that in the context of fisheries. And so I deliberately made that combination of the economic side. So trade and investment on one hand and then the human rights law environment, a lot really more the aspirational, like where you'd like the sector to be on the other hand.

1:11:04 And so, yeah, I really wrote about where those different areas came together. And for instance, what I learned there, I think it's the topics that focused on there weren't necessarily exactly the topics I'm focusing on now because I just I know a lot more now about what impacts the sector and what doesn't. And I did back then. And I really just had to invent it myself. Obviously, none of my law professors know much about fish and and I don't blame them. And the but I did catch on pretty early on that it is as unfair as a lot of the other food sectors. And for instance, particularly that whatever the EU is doing on paper looks great.

1:11:57 Yeah, then if you put in more in the context of certain impacts, then yeah, you really start to question about, I guess, the hypocrisy of a lot of these systems and how the states work together on this. And yeah, like an example, I have an essay I wrote that I later published was on the Western Sahara because I was watching a documentary. So that's an area occupied by Morocco. And in international law, people have a right to what we call self determination. And under that right, you have the right to benefit from your own natural resources. But so a lot of the fish that's caught in front of the coast of the Western Sahara, it is not benefiting the people from the Western Sahara was actually benefiting either the EU or Morocco itself because they were the ones fishing there.

1:13:02 And so I think that's was a very interesting example of where you have two formal states and occupation, a natural resource. And the EU has all these trade and all these fisheries agreements with Morocco, where it's like, well, you on the one hand, you're promoting the right to self determination. But on the other hand, you have these economic treaties that are making it extremely difficult to really implement that right to self determination in practice. So I thought that was a very interesting example of, I guess, just politics being politics. And but if you really look at it, legally, it's not legal. It's not in line with what's been agreed upon internationally. So it did really seem like a sector where a lot of those international challenges exist and where there is just a lot of unfairness and where there is a lot of work to be done to fight for people that are in more vulnerable positions to benefit from these marine resources as is their right to.

1:14:08 Yeah, no, absolutely. It's it's there are a lot of laws out there and and and a lot of them are there to protect people. A lot of them are there to allow people to fish sustainably. And there are a lot of there, a lot of laws that are out there that are supposed to prevent from overfishing, from exploitation, over exploitation. A lot of the laws to protect human rights. There are a lot of laws that aren't followed and the high seas. And before we get into that, you know, you talked about the EU and setting presidents because you have some pretty good policies when it when it comes to setting them as well. Yes. Yeah. And but not great on one end and not too great on the other hand, I guess you ask.

1:14:53 Yeah, that's true. That's so true. But is there a difference between the are the laws for land and I guess more agriculture, you know, farming and so forth as strict as the laws at sea as like are there like you said there's some similarities in certain in certain ways in terms of their they set the policies. But are there differences in land and sea? When you when you look at the strictness of it in terms of of ensuring sustainability, ensuring proper ethics when it comes to fisheries and so forth? Short answer would be yes, I definitely think the laws on land are much more strict. But and I think that also comes from, you know, I think we have a lot of laws that are not you know, I think with a lot of fisheries you it requires collaboration between the states and that happens in the RFM most for instance, yes, where whatever you do on your own land you do on your own land.

1:15:56 So that sense, I would say agriculture and agriculture is very comparable. If you look at the laws and sometimes it's even tackled in one single regulation, where they'll just be like minor differences that they put in an annex or something. But there's a lot of similarity there. But when you are talking about fisheries, you're really talking more about natural resource law, it's more comparable to hunting, they always say with fisheries, right? Gotcha. So it's really, you know, where aquaculture looks a lot at the inputs and the impact on groundwater and all those things. I think with fisheries, it is really much more on how and how much you are allowed to take. But the fact that it is something that just requires international collaboration, I think that makes it a lot more challenging.

1:16:49 And then it's not just a law, there's also the matter of enforcement and it happens out at sea with fisheries, you know, still you can put 50 legal scholars in one room, but there will still not be one conclusive answer on which jurisdictions should be involved with enforcing. Enforcing a certain illicit activity at sea, for instance, so much always claims of, you know, multiple claims of jurisdiction, and there's not necessarily always in hierarchy in that. And there are always certain flag states, sometimes port states that refuse to do their part.

1:17:39 So that really makes it challenging and practice. So it's not so much about the law, per se. It is really also about why fisheries is just such a different resource than other food systems and the international collaboration that it requires to properly enforce it. And also the fact it's much more expensive to send a drone or vessel than an inspector that goes to a farm. So there's also the issue of capacity, where, as I said in the beginning, I don't believe it's always an unwillingness. I think it can really be just a lack of capacity. But it's also politics, you know, if you are, let's say you're a coastal state and there's a vessel in your economic exclusive zone, you know, where you really are the primary state to enforce the proper management of your resources there.

1:18:36 And that state, the flag state is a country that happens to also be giving you a lot of development aid. What are you going to do? I mean, your law might say one thing, but you know, the Ministry of Fisheries doesn't operate in silo. It's, it's, it's gonna be really challenging because they still operate in reality. So the law is, I think can be a great tool, but sometimes the law only goes so far. It's you're right. That's, that's very, very true. And what I want to do now is I want to start just at the basics in terms of the way the laws have been in the past and in our in our currently and how they've changed it to our current system, like start with the basics and we'll start to grow on that and be able to do that.

1:19:22 So I want to go through some of those, but I'm going to let you guys look at the first thing I want to do and then I'll start to start to talk about the first things that I want to do. And I want to start to think about the first thing I want to do, just to clarify too, because a lot of the people that listen to this podcast are from the US you mentioned you've mentioned a couple times when you when you talk about individual sort of management units, but also, I think individual countries, you mentioned the state's. Who knows? You never know. But what do you mean by states when you say states? I think that's a lot as a very big law term in terms when it comes to a lot of policies. Yeah as I've At some point during my work in the fisheries sector because I wasn't always so particularly focused on fisheries law It I did started calling them countries, right? But nowadays I always talk about states and jurisdictions which are basically the same often but the thing with a state and We even capitalize this as lawyers like that's that's how much we love that word and we basically just mean a country and You would only say that for a UN member countries with a recognized country and jurisdiction in that sense is sometimes a little bit more General where you can also say that about countries that do or about jurisdictions that do govern their fisheries management, but that aren't necessarily a recognized UN states Gotcha. Okay, I basically mean a country

1:20:53 and a country is the primary responsibility for that fisheries management So they're the ones that have The complete legal system that is supposed to manage that Okay, and and a lot of times from my understanding you can correct me if i'm wrong a lot of the countries Well, every country has a border on the ocean that has a coast on the ocean has an exclusive economic zone Pretty much 200 nautical miles off of their shore when you talk about jurisdiction from a national point of view You know you you talk about that 200 nautical mile within that 200 nautical mile within the country boundaries that have been set You know by the UN internationally agreed upon The countries or the states I should mention have jurisdiction over those waters and how they are managed they pretty much can do Whatever not whatever they want, but pretty much it's it's up to them It's up to their people to say whatever they want. So as an example, um, you know A very popular case is when the japanese were you know going into the southern ocean hunting whales We know the fiasco that that encountered from that with you know, sea shepherds Like you can't do this in international waters and you know the whole thing with the international whaling commission You know, it goes back and forth for decades and then finally the japanese say, you know What enough of this hassle we're going back into our own waters and we're just going to hunt, you know Marine mammals within our own our own waters Not much internationally people can do in that respect other than maybe boycott some of their products if

1:22:23 they really want to do so But there's really not much they can do from a legal standpoint because they're within their own rights within the 200 nautical miles That so that kind of goes in terms of like what countries can do Uh within the law and this is my understanding of the law I don't know what the specifics of marine mammal law within the japanese 200 nautical miles But this is some of the stories that I've that i've seen but so A lot of those laws now when it comes to like north america, you know, you have you have canada You have the u.s. You have mexico They have their their treaties and they have their you know North american free trade agreement and stuff and sometimes fisheries comes into that and they work fairly well together As of until recently, uh fairly well together, you know across the borders Um when it comes to the eu the eu is managed as you know, the member states of the eu Um, how does that work for?

1:23:17 Countries that have coastal borders onto the like say the atlantic ocean or even the metaterrannian um, do they have the same 200 nautical miles off the coast and do they manage like this portugal just manage portuguese waters? Uh france, you know french waters germany like, you know those types of states Do they just manage their own waters 200 nautical miles off or are there other? Agreements where those are managed as the eu So it's an interesting question first I wanted to mention it is It's not like in your own eec you can do whatever you want Because in the case of wailing for instance, there is such a thing as the uh as a treaty on wailing I forget the formal name, but that's from like 1946 it's actually the first international law of the sea treaty that we had uh, so there are certain Areas in which you can't just do whatever you want because hey, it's it's my eec.

1:24:21 So it's my jurisdiction But of course, it's so much harder to enforce because there's not any other countries that are That have any jurisdiction. So in international law there is this principle Uh, which I don't know if it's ever really been I guess it's been relied on for things like a un piece Mission, uh, you know with like the blue helmets where it's like none of the states necessarily had Uh any jurisdiction, but it was seen as such an issue of international importance That's you know under but then we're talking much more about diplomacy than yes law per se um, but just a minor correction there with the when it comes to the determination of your economic exclusive zone we are um indeed talking about 200 nautical miles from uh from the coast but the uh and in some cases if you're lucky that just means there's you know, like in a lot of Islands for instance, that just means there's there's a beautiful circle around your country and you can use that but in Many instances it will clash with someone else's easy So then the general rule would be that it's somewhere in the middle but it can deviate that's really up to the Two countries to decide and generally there won't be any issues there unless

1:25:52 maybe there's any oil or any resources found Like exactly between those two then that's when the trouble just look contagious. Yeah, exactly um, but there's even been good examples of That where our countries have come to good agreements and really using the natural resources to benefit both countries so, uh the European Union specifically it will then basically depend on uh the country and where they're located Uh how big their easy is so the Netherlands for instance, uh will clash with the the UK at some point um, so they that's a really important collaborative partner for the Netherlands to have in um uh some I uh some countries in Europe still have islands so you have the because you know, it's Europe so all At least in western Europe all former colonial powers and some of these islands were never really transferred back So they're still part of the European Union area, so an example would be well you have the Azores in Portugal which is You'd have then the EEC of Portugal then a bit of nothing and then again the EEC of Portugal around the Azores islands But you also have French Guiana in Latin America, which is officially an overseas European territory, even though it's in Latin America. There's also some islands in the Caribbean and the in Europe

1:27:22 there's certain areas where European countries have Given their power to the European Union meaning that it's not the individual countries that dictate the rules there It's at the European Union level and fisheries for instance, uh, as well as trade is an example of that So in Europe, you have something called the common fisheries policy and that is the same for any of the EU member states and it will also apply to uh French Guiana for instance, and I've had I have heard challenges sometimes with managing that because you know their border countries are not part of the EU and um But whenever there needs to be any sort of international collaboration, they would need to call in France to Because officially that's part of it, but France is like so far from this country.

1:28:17 It's not really at the top uh top of their priorities. So it's really quite a complicated system, uh with the EU sometimes bringing in all the different EECs that are technically managed under the common fisheries policy Yeah, I can imagine I can imagine Okay. So now we got that settled and well settled I quote unquote settled Um, let's talk about sort of the the laws right now overall like you know worldwide obviously They're very different in different parts of the world. Um, but let's talk about the like up to now Um, you know it used to be where you could just fish wherever you want whenever you want way back, you know a couple hundred years ago You could do that, you know, there weren't as many fishing fleets weren't as efficient in catching You know, there's there's talk about times where you used to just throw a bucket in the north atlantic And you'd be able to catch cod didn't fill it up within minutes if not seconds That's obviously changed from now on um, and and from the 90s on especially with the north atlantic and the cod Where are we right now with with fisheries laws? Like if you look at fisheries laws from your perspective Overall worldwide, would you say they are adequate? They are good or they just in some cases they just suck It's a very challenging question. It's a very interesting question. Um, but I and it is something i'm researching but considering that you know for a lot of these fisheries laws or Policies i will be looking at it from an outsider perspective. So I do need to be aware of

1:29:48 I guess my eurocentric views. Um before passing any judgment I know that it can be very hard to predict sometimes and I think there's a lot of assumptions sometimes around the global south doing a worse job at this and I definitely have not found that to be true right, I think um I don't necessarily focus so much on Evaluating whether a fisheries law is adequate. Yes or no simply because I I it's just really like I said, I think to really fully understand the law it's also just the uh legal context and kind of the culture like for instance if you look at fisheries transparency There will be in some countries. It's absolutely Not a problem to be super transparent about whatever is going on in Your you know the allocation of fisheries authorizations catch data all these different fisheries data elements There's absolutely no problem because these are countries that generally have a very long-standing legal tradition of transparency where they view natural resources as a common good and the people have a right to know that which great um, but there's a lot of countries that don't necessarily have this tradition and kind of forcing that same approach on them Is just not going to work and it's going to make people maybe very uncomfortable and yeah, um, so I think

1:31:21 I wouldn't be able to speak intelligently to You know, what's what are the good fisheries policies and you know, the world is is a big place it's also not my intent necessarily to pass judgment on individual fisheries policies or uh legislation what i'm more interested in is Having, you know on a global level with the seafood sector where there's a lot of NGOs Yeah, having them focus more on the roles that states have whether they're doing a good job now or not, but to really focus on Keeping states accountable because they do have Responsibility to properly manage their response their fisheries resources under uh, the international law of the sea so there is that obligation and uh, I would really like to see that the the sector and the Different NGOs working in that sector focus much more on that and uh, Because whether they're already doing a good job Or not so much or maybe they just don't know where to start I think a lot of focus should go on building that capacity and creating more awareness, uh on What is going on there? Why is it failing and also being a little bit more tangible about that and not just like a state is doing a bad job and their fisheries management system is inadequate, but more like

1:32:53 really Tangibly think about what are systems? that you know certain legislation can keep in place that are really enabling For this type of illicit activity to take place and for an example could be for instance. Okay. How does a country? You know capture information around the ultimate beneficial owner of a vessel And uh, how does it share that information with stakeholders? If the state doesn't have enough capacity, how is it relying on other could be public international institutions or? um NGOs to increase that capacity and So I think there's a lot of work to be done in focusing on what states are doing But i'd like to approach that not so much from uh, let's categorize it and say this good bad, uh, worst um, but more from okay, what Should be done. What is important? What are the risks? What should be considered for these systems and um Focus a lot more on pushing states to do the right thing there That's a that's an interesting concept right is to understand what's you know, what's happening. What's the risks?

1:34:12 There are so many states it's really difficult to try and blanket Legislation for the world obviously the question I asked before was a little loaded because it was like hey, how's every how's all the fishing Legislation around the world working obviously that's very different different cultures different places around the world Everything is so unique When we we look at specific legislation and I assume that's what you you're doing and you're going to talk about for you know your consultant any day And and to look at specific legislation and to analyze that and say here's the here this this the good part of legislation What's working? Here's what's not working? and then to push that state to you know repair or to um You know build a stronger legislation to help not only the fishing community, but also the seafood sector within that within that state That is complex in itself to to be able to do that because some states may not be May not be willing to make those changes When you do an analysis on a on a policy like that or on a on a piece of legislation What's your approach?

1:35:20 When you start to to look at that understanding that some states may not want to change too much because we know humans We don't like change, right? Yes. No, and it's like I said, it's also very political and it's it's not just a bunch of rules right and But what I love and what I have very particularly chosen is to be in the role of a researcher and an advisor I am not necessarily pushing an agenda. Sure. Like I said, I'm pushing for attention more on certain elements and uh But not so much saying oh, this is exactly the level of transparency that a state should have Because that's not my field of expertise that there are other NGOs that are, you know doing great job at researching that uh, so what I do is Now particularly one thing that I do really believe in is fisheries transparency and when we say fisheries transparency at least when when I say it, um I Think you know that having that public availability of information is crucial. Um But I don't necessarily uh Think that you know, we should encourage states to just put any fisheries data out there I think we need to really emphasize um and consider, okay, what type of fisheries data is valuable For so what are NGOs interested in? So

1:36:50 look at all these fisheries data elements which ones do the NGOs even care about? Um, and which ones can they actually translate into meaningful impact like for instance that increased capacity and there are a number of uh civil society organizations that are really doing great job like Think you have like tmt you have of course global fishing watch oceana is really pushing for that transparency Pew published a lot of great research. So, you know, there are definitely those groups that I really think have an amazingly great focus and um But I don't and Whatever they could use I think there should be a conversation around. Okay.

1:37:32 Can that type of fisheries data be shared? with them but there's also the um other side of the equation which is concerns about privacy or proprietary information And that is something that i'm focusing on particularly right now where it is um And this is very common in international law where you have maybe an obligation or kind of a goal um on the one hand, but on the other hand, you do have rights of individuals And you need to find a proper balance there. So you can just there are certain data elements linked to fisheries that are also linked to individuals because people work on vessels people own vessels people benefit from uh the vessel activity so There there is a link there between uh, intellectual property law or personal data protection law, you know the right to privacy And what i'm doing now specifically is researching. Um Okay, where?

1:38:39 uh, you know i'm currently looking at a case 30 case studies of different countries where i'm looking at all of the protections that could possibly exist for fisheries data so, uh first is uh Looking at okay. Is there any way you can? um Under this jurisdiction should uh certain data elements be protected and um Or Because you know, it might violate the right privacy of a person that's on board of the vessel or it might uh, you know Give away a trade secret because where they're fishing how they're fishing etc is something that's benefiting their company, etc Where type of protections you find really depends on the jurisdiction the legal culture just uh, uh a lot of different elements there. It's um But basically the first question there is do these barriers exist?

1:39:33 because a lot of countries sometimes keep the door close to certain ngo's because they say These barriers exist and sometimes ngo's don't quite believe that and they feel they're just unwilling to collaborate with them So my first approach is really just to see okay. Is that assumption of the unwillingness and true? Uh, because if it is true then okay um There then you need to find a way, you know If if that is really the barrier that they see you need to find a way to work around it Yes And very often in the law there are all these exceptions that are foreseen or things you can do to mitigate the risk Around you know data being leaked or being made public etc So it's definitely not that if you know, you find one Challenge somewhere that there's there's no way to still achieve a higher level of fisheries transparency But I think we just need to be very diligent about okay. What data elements are we talking about? Is it valuable?

1:40:30 Okay for these ones where we know it is valuable What are the legal barriers that may exist and they don't come from fisheries law? They come from all these other fields of private law that Everyone kind of fails to consider because who knows anything about personal data protection when they work in a ministry of fisheries like it's so true, so it makes perfect sense and um Okay, if there is that barrier then you can say okay, this is how we can kind of Work around that how we can like navigate the law and then if there's still No response from that state. They're still like no, we're absolutely not going to work with you And they're not going to give a good reason why they don't want to increase the transparency Then you know you have an unwilling state, but until that time you just don't know you're making assumptions Right and I understand that's the role of NGO sometimes is to like kick and scream and say what's wrong with the world, but i'd like to bring in a little bit of nuance, uh, yeah I really hope no NGOs take offense at what I just said, but Well, I mean it's true like look let's be honest when it comes to fisheries, especially if if a country is not willing To work with an NGO on a particular item their job You know depending on what NGO it is a lot of them their job is either to work with them to be like Hey, let's try and figure out You know what the barriers are just like like what you're saying here Uh, but others will will get a little bit more aggressive and they'll press they'll become more

1:42:00 They'll go from Advocation to to activism, you know, and they'll say look we don't like the way you get the naming and shaming and Naming and shaming and protesting and those Yeah, yeah, and look they I feel like I agree with you. I feel like there's a there's a time and place Uh for it and sometimes it brings attention We there's always arguments on what type of attention is good attention is negative or positive um, and and there's there's a degree of necessity for some of those organizations to exist and to do what they do But let's be honest the collaboration Come the the the advancement comes from collaboration the advancement comes from little empathy going It's like totally understand where you're coming from. You've had this problem in the past You know, you really have to get to know the state to just be like Where are you coming from? How like why are you progressing this way?

1:42:51 We would love to offer you some help if needed if you would like it. Not every state is going to accept it Um, some are some aren't I feel like these days though and you can correct me if I'm wrong because you probably work with a lot Of these different states Do you find most of them are coming in with a little bit more? optimism in terms of working with other companies or organizations to better their fisheries I think a lot of states particularly when they have challenges in the capacity they um can be very willing and uh, at least the people you talk to it's it's Question sometimes whether the broader political system is as willing because they have different priorities, but of course it's um Yeah, certainly and now I just gave the example of working with NGOs, right?

1:43:39 And i'm not saying that states are obligated to work with NGOs I'm just saying there are a lot of NGOs that are doing great work when it comes to fisheries transparency And if there is a need for more capacity if there's a need for that support. Yeah, I think it's a really great Uh option and it would be a waste basically to yeah have these Just because you don't quite know how to work with Uh balancing these different areas of law and these different interests to not move forward with that I just think that would be a waste. So that's uh, but i'm not saying they're obligated to do that. They're just obligated to have a adequate system for uh managing their fishery resources and um If they already do that Great, right. Yeah, but I very uh Now feel like so these are the the states the NGOs that are focusing on working with states um, and I think that's Great and I see that the large majority of NGOs in the sector are not even doing that they're not focused at all on states They're more like oh, yeah fisheries management's not really doing the job. It should do so Let's just come up with all these private mechanisms. That's going to kind of fill that gap and it just doesn't because a private institute, you know, sure they can there are examples of them doing a good job, um but ultimately

1:45:10 I feel like it's such a large group focusing only on private efforts not at all on uh, the role of public institutions That gives me kind of the impression that we're very distracted with what really matters, which is a more sustainable sustainable as in long-term change of how we manage fisheries Uh to really create a more responsible and equitable sector So that worries me um and I think it's You know private mechanisms. They're not able to do the same things that states can they don't participate in rfmo's they don't uh, they're they don't have a they're not involved with the creation, uh of new treaties like you have now the high seas treaties that we're waiting to have enough states ratify that like Why aren't more?

1:46:06 And she was pushing states to ratify this treaty like there is an instrument that can really uh provide support in this International collaboration that we need and no instead we're here just you know Working with all these Different mechanisms that are just tackling such a small part of the issue um and I feel like a lot of Time and energy goes goes wasted there and that is why you know, I say generally i'm not necessarily the one That feels particularly comfortable with passing judgment on you know states not doing good job here Well, because understands the very complex system that they're part of of course But when it comes to an NGO, I you know Maybe it is because I have worked for an NGO in the past and I know this sector.

1:46:54 Well, it's I do feel a bit more comfortable being like No, i've been here now for eight years and I think you're wrong. I think this approach is just uh It's a bandage Sure, it might do something right, but right let's not lose Track of what really matters here and that's what states are doing And I really really i'm such a big supporter of the NGOs that are really supporting States directly or that are pushing states directly Or that are maybe taking part in in these types of meetings like you have the UN ocean conference or you have the sometimes NGOs also have a seat with Rfms at least in a advisory capacity like all of that amazing keep doing great work there But ultimately it should be focused on that primary responsibility And that lies with states and they just have so much more power so much more means to achieve that Yeah, and we need to kind of stop putting mandates everywhere because we're just creating a lot of confusion and Maybe also unwillingness to even talk about sustainability anymore. Yeah, it's true though. I I agree That's it tends to not get be the focus anymore There's seem to be more short-term bandages and short-term changes, but not nothing long-term When it comes to the work that you do at natural justice Um, can you talk a little bit about that you talk about doing research and looking at policies looking at laws?

1:48:23 Can you maybe give us an example of some of the projects that you're that you're able to talk about? Yeah, certainly. So I Do different projects. It kind of depends on One side I do work with these different NGOs or they're not even really NGOs. They're more like civil society organizations Uh because they're not in the field of advocacy uh, but the different civil society organizations that are working on fisheries transparency and I do legal research on the examples that I gave of Personal data protection for instance or intellectual property law where they're running into legal barriers and they're just trying to understand Okay, is this indeed what you know, these government representatives have told us and if so, how can we change our approach?

1:49:11 To still be able to work with them to still achieve our mission. Yes, which I uh fully applaud I think that's a great way of of trying to achieve it where it's like Okay, if not this way then this way because no one said it was going to be easy, right? It's it's okay to hit hit these different roadblocks and um Well, and sometimes the lawmakers don't know the law sometimes they don't know the policies are there We've kind of seen it here in north america with the new us president or the returning us president talking about certain things Like I can do this I can do that But then when it comes down to the court You can't do a lot of those policies and laws because you just weren't aware of what was of what was happening before. You know, it's very Uh true. Yeah often people can work at a government, but don't understand the law at all But even lawyers they will be so specialized in their field that they don't understand how their field interacts with other fields True, especially when you talk about broadening the type of laws that are coming in for privacy and so forth, right?

1:50:04 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I mean I never focused on personal data protection necessarily uh that much in law school i'm lucky that I am from a European law like that's I was educated in a european law school and that personal data protection is very much something where The eu has has pushed a lot for that and it's yeah, they take it seriously. Yeah Yeah, so you so you see a lot of the different countries particularly civil law countries, so those are countries that have a legal system based off of the french system where everything will be very much already dictated in the law and then the court's um role is to interpret that law that is uh, generally you see a lot of those countries have Personal data protection laws that are very similar to what the eu um has done because I guess they're kind of the um Leading um, I guess a lot of the development there But if you look at countries like the us or canada where it's a common law system It will be very different and also the legal barriers you're going to run into they're going to be very different so That is a bit novel to me But you know, I talk to a lot of lawyers from different areas and a lot of stakeholders that are more on the other side that are running into these legal barriers And with all of that i'm trying to kind of make some sort of sense of it. Yeah, it's definitely

1:51:34 uh uncharted territory sometimes Because people that are interested in fisheries, they're not going to specialize in personal data protection. No I'm lucky because I just love law. It's just one big puzzle to me. I can look at it all day I'm just like analyzing stuff. It's I just born to do legal work. Basically. I also know it sounds extremely boring to a lot of people And if you're like i'm going to go into the fisheries sector marine conservation, it's exciting you're not going to want to specialize in those areas and um so I don't expect people that work for a ministry of fisheries to to know a lot about that because They might think it's not that relevant, but it is a lot of different legal protections will be relevant for fisheries because we're talking about fisheries data and data is such a topic right now where we're talking a lot about how do we balance the availability of data with uh privacy and national security for sure and all these different different elements, so it's It's really quite important, but it is also extremely niche and um Yeah government representatives and even lawyers. They won't always know everything. I definitely don't pretend like I know everything I just know that i'm focused on it and every day I try and learn a little bit more about it and every day I try and solve this puzzle a little bit more for the uh civil society organizations that are

1:53:04 trying to work with states on fisheries transparency I also work on agriculture and uh there we're looking also a lot at not just the law and policy but also a lot at the science and basically just kind of bringing all of that together and What I really like is generally with natural justice is to bring more I guess nuance and also just more Very clear and transparent thinking of okay. Why are we you know, we're doing a gap analysis. Okay. What's this framework? What have we based that on and it's just going to be purely based on science law? Yeah, very tangible things that are not that political um and just comparing it with that with the conclusions it's really up to the the clients that we work with to do with that what uh they see fit but um yeah, really just bringing in very thorough analysis and because we are not a civil society organization as in that we are We're trying to make an impact, but we're not a not-for-profit. So we don't depend on funding We can work on what we want. Well, of course, we need to have clients that actually pay us otherwise i'm doing a lot of volunteering, but It's We're pretty free in that sense. Yeah at least yeah, I think that's great Yeah, 100. I think it's great because it allows you to you know, get that creativity it allows you to really expand and and also take from you know one state and apply what

1:54:36 would benefit to another state or You know vice versa and I think that Gives you that freedom to do that instead if you work for one state or you work for it in jail within You know within a confines of one place you can really Go across sectors within fisheries and across states, which I think is really important It's and it's what needed and I think it allows you to build that experience uh to to focus on that which which I which I think is wonderful really grateful as well for having been able to build a good network where I See there's different worlds that i'm sometimes and they don't interact that much with each other But I try and interact with all of them. So yeah, this research actually that I was talking about the legal barriers or legal protections of fisheries data, um, uh initiated that as a phd at University of hombre so through that i'm also part of this like legal scholar community that just like talks about law of the sea And all those things and that's just a completely separate world and then uh, my world like my work world is mostly in The seafood sector where I am in contact with a lot of civil society organizations, but also with supply chain companies and um But I also and this is mostly through uh, I think coursework and then uh coursework that I was able to do through fao and then um now linking that to my research as well, I talk to a lot of government representatives

1:56:07 so i'm really able to learn from the experience of a lot of different people with very different perspectives on this and it's I think really helpful to yeah, love kind of Would love it if natural justice, you know, like maybe five years from now I can say like actually we've helped to kind of build bridges a little bit between those worlds like bring more of that understanding of the legal perspective into the seafood sector, um as well as you know to government Representatives where i've you know i've taken the example of legal barriers to working with ngoes but it can even be There's many examples of legal barriers of different public institutes of one state Not being able to share certain fisheries data Between them because it was confidential and I couldn't be shared to another institute So, you know, it really just is relevant for different levels and with that for different stakeholders And yeah, I really love kind of building those bridges But also just feel very fortunate that I can learn from a lot of these firsthand experiences because I certainly don't have them Yeah for sure. No, I love it. I love this has been amazing to dive deep into You know All these different types of policies and laws and where we're at and where we need to go and the research that you've been able to accomplish It seems like you're just scratching the surface, you know from from your career and and really getting into it

1:57:37 I love it and i'd love to have you back on invite you back on to talk more and on a more regular basis because I feel like you could become our Our correspondent for law and fisheries. I think it'd be it would be a lot of fun um in one last question in terms of like the future of fisheries and law like Where do you think we really need to focus in to really, you know protect our fisheries? Overall, it doesn't have to be specific But just overall that you've seen in terms of trends of the work that you've been able to to do Is that a very It's a big question question, but I think for me right now with what i've seen for me the biggest point is Because governments they're like I said i've emphasized a lot they're responsible, but they're also In a system that it's it's not necessarily that they can change things overnight, right?

1:58:29 and I recognize that in the interim we do need The private sector to step up and make sure that they're still sourcing seafood Properly and they rely on NGOs to do that and that is all fine, but I would still Like to really see that instead of finding each other on which private mechanism is best There would be maybe a little bit more alignment within that fishery sector and with that more focus on Pushing states to at least for instance ratify these international treaties like i've mentioned the high seed treaty but there's also one from the World Trade Organization on the Ill-directed subsidies that we see a lot with fisheries So if we can get more of a push to at least at the international level Push states to do the right thing And then we can take that next step on focusing how we can best as a sector really push them to Responsibly manage those fisheries resources and I think that could be a much better use of resources yeah and um Those Yeah, that's I think i'm gonna stop there because I can ramble I just I have a lot to say in this

2:00:00 context. I love it. I think it's uh, I think that could be a good start and I also know that you know looking at at least where Europe or The us is now it's maybe not a very popular opinion to promote state responsibility and environmental management because we don't really seem to have the politicians in place that are going to step up to do that but Let's not I mean Most cases it's a term of four years Let's not focus on the short-term goals. Let's focus on the long-term goals and exactly The world's a big place. There's a lot of governments that are still trying every day to do better and Yeah, it's like we said before this is not a fisheries Yeah, and let me say first not a Sorry, sorry. Go ahead. He's finished no worries, uh, no just work towards a more promising future of fisheries because i've seen in the past eight years a lot of talk but Except for those two treaties that I mentioned that need to be ratified by more states. I've seen little tangible results Yeah, no 100 and then obviously we need we need more Uh, I don't even think canada has ratified it yet. Uh, the high seas treaty. Anyway, uh, call your government today I I agree they're going out soon. So they want to vote provincially, but yeah, we got to talk friendly, too I completely agree Look, this is a you know, obviously fisheries is a complex issue.

2:01:28 It's it's never easy to solve This is why it's been such a like a topic of conversation for a long time But I feel like you know understanding the laws that are around and what needs to be done Is really is really helpful. So I want to thank you so much Ava for coming on the podcast and being able to talk to us about this and again Can't wait to have you back on to talk more Yeah, very welcome. Thanks a lot Thank you Ava for joining us on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast It was great to be able to have you on to discuss law and fisheries I just think that this is such a complicated issue and so complex It's nice to have somebody on the podcast to be able to help us get through all the layers of different laws and What we need to really focus on in the future I thought it was really interesting to see your perspectives on you know The law and what we need to do and take away some of these private mechanisms and manage more publicly and more through governance From the different states.

2:02:18 I think that's really great Obviously collaboration is key, especially within the eu and other countries as well that have you know neighboring borders or the share the same border I feel like that's something that can always be improved upon no matter where you are in the world So sometimes you are neighbors with friends and sometimes you are not allies and sometimes you're allies You don't even realize that one person wants more than the other and this really can be complex just within that So it really is a focus on how to negotiate how to get along and how to manage fisheries Because fish don't see borders like we do and so they see borders from natural borders We see borders from political borders and that can be complex within itself So it's great to be able to have ava on and i'm going to put links to get to connect with ava And you find out more about her consultancy called natural justice and you can find her at natural justice dot n l dot natural justice dot And we'll put more links to her linkedin as well and to her newsletter.

2:03:15 That's it for today's episode I want to thank ava again for coming on the podcast I want to thank you for listening to this podcast if you have any questions or comments about the episode Please feel free to dm me on instagram You can do so at how to protect the ocean That's at how to protect the ocean and if you are interested in learning more and want to know more about these videos that you're watching On youtube if you're watching this on youtube, you can subscribe and click that notification bell So you don't miss any of the episodes that we post monday wednesday and friday And also don't forget you can hit us up on spotify You can get us on your favorite podcast app like apple spotify amazon music and so forth We're on all of your favorite podcast apps. So feel free to join us there subscribe to that or follow depending on what they ask you to do So you don't miss any other episode, but that's it for today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast I'm your host. Andrew lewin from the true north strong and free. Enjoy your day.

2:04:03 Have a great one and happy conservation