The Ocean Career Path Nobody Talks About

0:00 Well, hello out there and how to protect the ocean land. You're probably wondering why I am here and who I am. Well, I'm Dave Ebert and I'm typically Andrew Lewin's co-host for the Beyond Jaws podcast. But today there's been a friendly takeover that I've commandeered the show today to have on a special guest, someone who's never been a guest in the show before and that is Andrew Lewin. And Andrew is here to talk about a job he just obtained. He's going to be starting out here in the next week or two and kind of a follow the theme that we talk about in our on the Beyond Jaws podcast and a theme that Andrew's been talking about on Beyond on how to protect the ocean this week is is your career path. How do you go about finding jobs and find that job you really are passionate about and about and how you love that job.

0:45 And so today I'm going to be the host and we're going to be talking to Andrew and he may or may not regret at the end of the show whether I take over. With that, let me introduce you my special guest, Andrew Lewin. Hello everybody. Thanks, Dave. Lovely to be here. So happy to be on this wonderful podcast that's been built. Yeah, we only have the biggest names in this podcast, as you know. So so so tell us like how so you got this. You have it. You got a new job now we're going to talk about before we talk about this job. Why don't you share with everyone? Like, how did you get it? You've been doing this sort of YouTube podcast stuff for 16 years now.

1:26 16 years. Yeah. And so you were really kind of early on in the infancy of this whole genre. And why don't you share with everybody? How did you back going back to 2010? How did you see the writing on the wall for this whole area? Well, I'll be honest. I didn't see the writing on the wall right off the bat. You know, it I was more of a victim of circumstance in a way, you know, made some choices in my life that I'm still proud of today, but made some hard choices in my life about picking, you know, a job in marine biology or raising a family in the place that I grew up, which was not by the coast, which is hard to hold the marine biology job when you're not by an ocean coast. Right. I live by the Great Lakes, which is lovely to live by, but I live in Ontario, Canada.

2:12 There's obviously no ocean around us. And so, you know, I, you know, I was talking to my wife of 20 years now, but back then, you know, we were planning out our life and, and we were discussing where we were going to live and we wanted to raise our kids, you know, around, around our family. And I'll be honest, like I wasn't, I didn't really want that right off the bat. I wanted to like explore and go and raise our kids around, you know, around the world and wherever this marine biology place would take it. Because Dave, as you know, it could take you pretty much anywhere. And when you live in Canada too, I mean, you have three coasts to go to. There's also the option back then of the US, which was probably, you know, those are the, those are the geographies that were what I was looking at. But, you know, it's, these are difficult decisions to make. You have to make this personal decision. I knew it was going to be tough one. I chose, you know, I chose love and I chose family over, over the job, which again, I don't regret because we've had a fantastic life.

3:06 It's really great to see, to raise kids around like grandparents and uncles and aunts and things like that. So I think that was, was really good. I didn't see right off the bat, but as I, as like my kids were growing up, they're now, you know, my daughters, my oldest daughter is now in university, you know, doing marine biology and or wildlife biology. And my youngest daughter is, you know, almost out of high school now. She's in, she's a junior, I guess is what you say. Is that great grade 11 junior? Yeah. She's in grade 11 going to grade 12 next year. So, you know, they're older now, but I've been able to, you know, we've been able to raise our kids in a, in a familiar place and around family, which has been, which has been wonderful. But it also has been a challenge to be around the ocean or be working within the ocean during that time.

3:55 And so in the early 2000s, you know, I did my master's, I came back here. I do my master's out in Halifax. I came back here and, you know, worked some, some private consulting jobs, which it paid the bills. I got to do some ocean stuff. I got to do some riverine stuff, some, some lake work, really kind of cool stuff I got to do. And, and that was a lot of fun, but it just didn't do everything I wanted to do. One, it wasn't in oceans. Two, all the time, it was mostly riverine and lakes. Two, it was, you know, it was, it was working for a lot of private consulting that I was doing was working for industry. And it's, it's good work because you're working for industry to make sure they're following regulations.

4:37 But you're working with industries like oil and gas and like mining. And you know, eventually what's going to happen once they scout out sites, once they find hydrocarbon places where they can, where they can drill, eventually, it's going to happen where they're going to drill, they're going to ruin the environment at some point in a specific area, no matter what environmental experiments you do and environmental assessments, impact assessments, it's still going to be, it's taxing on the mind for someone who wants to protect the planet rather than harm it even more. So that was short lived for about four, maybe five or six years. And then, and then I started to, you know, I was, I was on my own for a little bit. And I, I've always had this entrepreneurial motivation in me. And so, like, even, even in my masters or my masters, I, I was big into the marine aquarium hobby, I was my geeky kind of hobby. And when I lived out in Halifax, it's a lot more expensive to have that hobby in Halifax, because the transportation coming to Toronto where I lived, it's a, it's a big hub, it's an international hub, one of the biggest airports in the world. But going to Halifax, it's an extra flight, it's hard to get to. So not only that, but it's a big hub.

5:52 And so I tried to do better. I could not do better. I did not have that business, uh, mindset at that point to do what I wanted to do. Uh, but regardless, I tried and there were, let's just say I was in a one bedroom apartment, uh, lived with a buddy of mine and my, my, my, uh, my girlfriend, my wife and my, my wife and my, my husband. And, uh, my wife and my wife and my wife and my wife and my wife, she was very, very busy. my girlfriend who is now my wife, and we had aquariums everywhere, all over the house. It was everywhere. Let's just say we never had to worry about moisturizing skin, because the heat and the salt in the air was quite wonderful. But anyway, that was my first entrepreneurial venture.

6:33 And then afterwards, after I stopped consulting for a bit, I tried to do that on my own for a little bit, did a couple jobs with government, where I got to do some GIS and Marine Protected Area planning stuff for Department of Fisheries and Oceans here in Canada. And then I started to kind of get the bug of like, hey, I wanted to stay in touch with a lot of the people that I've stayed in touch with either online, like Twitter and Facebook were starting to come, and YouTube were starting to come bigger and bigger online. 2008, 2009, podcasting was starting to come big, although I hadn't really heard of podcasting at that point. I didn't know exactly what it was. I just thought it was radio. That's basically what I thought.

7:14 And then I get this bug in me where I'm just like, I'm going to start a blog. I'm just going to start a blog where every day I'm going to write about something, something in the ocean, an article, or something I have on mind. And then I realized like writing is not easy. It's hard and I'm not good at it and I don't like it. So that was a very quick kind of way of doing things, right? And yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, I want to ask you. So you're getting this interest and I can tell you for writing, I find there's two ways. Either people have a knack for writing or they don't. I didn't, but I learned to. Right. So writing, I just mentioned that you can learn to write.

7:56 I couldn't write to save my life until grad school and then where you had to learn how to write. And then I found I really got into it. But yeah, it's something you got to learn to do. But while you had this passion to pursue this, obviously you had to pay some bills and keep going. And so this was really a side gig you had going with the writing and the blogs and all this stuff. It was literally a side hustle. So while I was off of work, I really started. I had young, like my kids were toddlers at the time. So I was busy, obviously being a dad, I was busy with my work. And then I was, and then so I got to do it during the day. And then finally I was like, this is ridiculous. I need to get a job because it's not paying any kind of bills. So I need to get a job.

8:37 I actually was fortunate enough to get a job for fisheries notions, Canada as an, it was an awesome job. Like I, my first job there was wonderful. I was working with a fellow by the name of Dr. Nick Mandrak, who's a, actually Dave, you'd get along really well with him. He's Nick Theologist as well. And he, do you, have you ever heard of Crossman and Crossman like the field identification book for fishes? Yeah, I have. Yeah. So that was his advisor. It was Crossman was his advisor. And he actually, there's a book called Crossman and Mandrak. Nick Mandrak was my, was my, my boss at the time. And I'll be honest, it was such a, it was such a good gig because he, because he was in, in like, he was a researcher, but he was an administration, administration position where he had to do a lot of meetings across the border.

9:21 Cause you know, Great Lakes is all about cross border relations and things like that. And science, we were on the science side. And so he had like an Excel sheet of projects to do. Like it was like a law, like 200 projects. Cause basically the public would ask us questions and we would have to find out the answers. And so, so they were really cool, cool things. And so he would have me do all these projects and he goes, okay, I'm going to wait for two weeks in meetings. If you need anything, this is how long ago it was hit me up on my Blackberry. And I'm like, all right, cool. No problem. He goes, but if you don't leave, you just do it. If you have questions, you know, we can get to it. As long as you can move on to another project, I'll give you like six or seven projects at a time. And I'll get to work on it. But it was all science stuff. It was all stats. I was, I was a geek at that point. There was some GIS.

10:01 We were doing like Asian carp risk assessments. We were doing, we were trying to find out how similar the fish assemblages were in each Lake over time. So we had data back to like the 1800s and then all the way to present day. So we were kind of looking, they obviously, they got similar as the lock system kind of got built in and stuff. And it was really cool, cool things, right? Everything was every day was different. So, and I really, really enjoyed that, which is kind of funny because it's going to come, come into play in a bit. But, but yeah. And then of course the government comes in and, you know, we had a conservative government. So they wanted to cut a lot of stuff that was happening at fisheries notions for a number of different reasons. So the position that I was about to move into firm permanently got cut because it was just a empty position on the org chart.

10:48 And so instead of affecting somebody who's already in a position, they just cut that position out. So I was kind of stuck. I went into doing more database management and GIS management, which I learned a lot, but it wasn't, I wasn't having as much fun. So eventually I left that position. But while this was happening, I was doing science communication on the side because that's what I was realized, even though I didn't like writing, I was doing like YouTube videos. And then I started, I started the podcast, but I was just like, this is what's fun, like, like telling stories, like looking at articles and telling people about stories in the ocean. That's what I really enjoyed to do. And and over time, I started to realize that every time I was on a boat, like back in the, like a couple of my jobs were just field work.

11:36 Anytime I was on a boat, I love the times, you know, when you're like, you're not working outside, it's say the day's done, you're on a ship and you're just all around, you're all having dinner. And then you're just trading stories from the field. And, you know, I was on a boat. One of my first jobs was at Louisiana University's Marine Consortium down in Louisiana. And and we would have researchers come out. We were basically like a business and we would have researchers come out and do fieldwork and they would rent the ship and I would be the Marine technician on the ship. So I would get people from all over the States, all over the world, really. And we would be, I'd be listening to their stories. I was a young kid at that point, listening to their stories about, you know, how they got seasick somewhere or how, you know, like they lost instrumentation somewhere, like just fun, like weird kind of stories that would happen out in the field.

12:23 And I and, you know, over as I started doing the science communications, like those are the stories that I love to hear, like, or even just like what we found here, we found this species or, you know, we found evidence of such and such. And it was just fun. Like, I always enjoyed those stories. I always sat there and listened as long as I could, even if I was feeling sleepy and I had to get up early in the next day. And that's what I was trying, like when I started the podcast, I started to try and recreate those, those feelings by trading stories with people, like having people come on the podcast and be like, tell me about this project or tell me about what you're doing lately and share it with everybody else. Like, essentially, it's a conversation between the two of us, but everybody else is listening in like they're flying on the wall so they can get the same information and hopefully get the same feeling that I did doing that conversation.

13:11 And I did, I did about, I don't know, 10 to 12 of those episodes. There's interviews was once a week. And then I got the bug and I'm like, I upgraded my microphone and I'm like, I'm doing five days a week. And then after that, it was like, that was it for me. Now, did you have any like, okay, obviously this is the way early days of podcasts and YouTube. And so did you have any like, um, like technical skills or any, how did you figure out some of this? How did you figure out some of this stuff? Like with doing the, whether it was the YouTube or the podcast or the, how did you figure out some of this stuff early days? I didn't, it was lots of mistakes, right? So podcasting back then. So this is like, you were looking at, I started listening to somebody put me on the podcast. A friend of mine that used to play football with put me on the podcast 2012, 2013.

14:00 I started to listen to a bunch about entrepreneurship and things like that. And because I want to be an entrepreneur and, and then I was like, oh, like there's nothing on oceans on this in the pockets. I think there was one, there was one show that was on oceans and it, and it hadn't run in a while. They haven't published episodes in a while. And so I first inquired about them. I was like, Hey, can I do this podcast? Well, you have to follow a certain, you have to follow this type of, cause it was like a, it was almost like a franchise. It was only like a network. And so they were just like, you had, it was a British one. You have to follow a specific way that they do things. And I was like, you know what? Maybe that's not for me. I want to kind of do it my own style. Uh, and so I just, I kind of just said, you know what? I'll do it myself. And that's when I started to look at how easy or difficult it was challenging. It was to do like to put a podcast up and it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be.

14:50 You know, there's a lot of their hosting companies I had to find out about, and then there was ways to do this and how do you record? Then you, how do you get it up there? I had to learn all of that. I had, you know, because I had the schooling and GIS and so I learned a lot of different software, like remote sensing software and GIS software, statistical software, I had a little bit of experience in learning new things. And so I just, it was just patients. It was a lot of time of like being on a computer for like four hours every night, you know, after the kids went to bed and just kind of like my eyes would come out and be all red, you know, just like, just from looking at a screen the whole time, trying to figure out how to do this stuff. And when I first did it, it was, it was so bad, Dave, like I, I joined a hosting company through another company. And then that company, so I'd upload it to that system.

15:41 And, and I started to publish and I was like, Oh, this is great. This is great. And of course, you know, I'm a numbers guy. So I always like to look at statistics and like what my numbers are the download numbers and stuff. And there's, I didn't realize there's like a specific standard and, but there's also ways that like the numbers can be blown out of proportion. So there was one day I woke up, I had published it at midnight, I woke up in the morning and I, the first thing I would do is check my downloads. I checked the downloads and normally I'm getting like 25, you know, 26, 27. This one, Dave, I was at 22,000, 22,000 downloads. And I was like, Oh, this is amazing. Like, holy cow. Like, this is awesome. Like I've made it. I just said, I go, I don't have to get a job anymore. I'm like, I am, I made it.

16:25 This is awesome. This is only in the morning. Let's see what happens at night. Then I find out all of those were ridiculous numbers. They were bots. They were this, they were that. And I was like, that sucks. And then the real hosting site, I went on to that hosting site and it was like 30. So I had like five more than normal. It was just like, you know, then I realized that there's a standard and stuff. So a lot of it was fumbling through, you know, microphones and things like that. Like I had that Yeti microphone. If you probably can't see it, like if you're listening to this on the, on the audio podcast, but there's a Yeti microphone just in the back there and it worked well. I didn't all be honest. I probably didn't know exactly how to use it. But it echoed a lot because my room is, you know, is not insulated for sound. So it echoed quite a bit. And so the sound didn't sound as good as it does now. And so I just upgraded my microphone and I said, I'm going to spend like 500 bucks on this microphone.

17:15 So I don't have any worry whatsoever. And I basically looked at the microphones that radio stations that were publishing online were using. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to find out, okay, that's the sure SM seven B. All right. I'm going to go look it up on Amazon and find out what it was and, and buy it. And I and I and I ended up actually before I bought it, I actually rented a bunch of microphones at a local music store that I have here called Long and McQuaid. And I could rent it for like 15 bucks a week. I was like, this is great. So I would do that. And and and then I found out the sound was really good. So I was like, this is perfect. I'll just buy that microphone. And then whenever when then I got invited to do a conference at and I and I rented a bunch of microphones and I went over there and I had like two microphones.

18:00 And I had like a lot of people I would interview people with. So, yeah, so it's like, and it's just like when you, when you look at these different things, a lot of times people would email me and be like, Hey, your sound is awful on this one. Like you got to figure, you got to figure your stuff out. I'm like, Oh, okay. Sorry. You know, and then you do it all over again. There were times like, I think my first episode I've recorded it. They were 45 minutes long. Like my first one of my first solo episodes. I think I rerecorded it three times because I kept losing it. I kept deleting it by accident. I couldn't figure out how to save it on the software that I was using, you know, and so like there were some frustrating times. Like it wasn't easy. There was some times where I was like, I spent while I spent three hours recording one one episode because I had to re do it every time. And and yeah, so I think you if you really want to do it, you figure it out. And that's that's just what I wanted to do.

18:53 And that's that's just what I do. I fumble through things and I figure that out. Did you have any like like do any like, how did you figure out like how doing like hosting and doing that type of stuff? How did you, you just kept doing it and just figured just try to improve on what you were doing? Yeah, I, the, you know, I was always a shy kid growing up. When I got to university, I kind of came out of my shell. I forced myself to come out of my shell a little bit because I was like, I didn't, I didn't have a good time socially in high school. Right. And so when I got to university, I say, I've got to, I got to be different. I got to really show my personality. And so I would just kind of put myself out there. And that's what I did here. And it sucked. Like it was hard at times, especially a science person, like a young science person. Yeah. I was like, what if someone like Dave Ebert hates what I say? You know, like, or what if I'm wrong and I get, I, you know, I get excommunicated from, from the science person.

19:45 I was very, I was very concerned about that. But in terms of my style, it's always just been, I genuinely want to know about what I invited this person on for, right? About their project, about what they've done in their lives, what they've accomplished. I'm, I'm, I'm that passionate about science and ocean science and ocean conservation that I want it up. Like the questions I'm asking are generally questions selfishly of what I want to know. So the style just came from that. Okay. I mean, you come across very polished, you know, like I still kind of stumbling along trying to figure it out myself after five years. I appreciate that. You know, you come across very polished and everything. And I just want to mention one caveat to people. It's funny.

20:30 People that do these things like you and me, like I was terribly introverted up until graduate school. I mean, I was people that knew me back in high school and even in college undergrad. I was just terribly quiet and what turned it around for me was when I was in doing my masters, one of my professors, you know, he said, you know, you got to be able to communicate to, you know, it was back in the eighties. You got to be able to talk to people. And I said, you know, and I did try to keep taking seminar classes. But what really turned it around for me was this professor goes like, okay, Dave, if I can keep in mind, this is the 1980s. But he said, yeah, if someone's going to pay you $100 to get up and talk to that audience, what are you going to do? I'm like, hundred bucks. Hell yeah, I'll get up there and talk. Just need the right motivation.

21:17 Oh, man. And then it was just suddenly turned it because what he did was what he did. I talk. What he did was it turned like this sort of introverted shy experience like, wait, this is a job. I'm getting paid. Damn it. Yeah. And so your mindset's totally different. Well, hell, I'm going to get up there and talk and do what I can do. And of course, now it's completely gone to now I'm doing hosting a show with you. And I'm interviewing you now for your own podcast. Now your interview. Yeah, exactly. So I thought it was good to share with people like young people that might be quiet. You know, it's the right motivation. I think there's also something to say to I as I did my like someone who's done his masters before and obviously you've done your masters in your PhD and had to defend in front of probably the most intimidating people at the time that you have like your professors, you know, their colleagues, there's an external professor who comes in, you know, in person and they can they travel to come to see you being able to talk science in front of them.

22:13 And, and, you know, answer their questions on the research that I that I was able to do. That's an intimidating moment. Like, you know, you're nervous during that moment because one, you don't want to look like a fool. And two, you don't want you don't want them to be disappointed in you, right? There's a there's that mentorship kind of thing. And so I think my supervisor said it best. John Roff. He said, you know, you know, this even better than they do. You know, this project better than they do. So they're just going to ask questions because they just want to know what you did. You know, so they're not they're not trying to fail you. They're just trying to understand what you did. And if you can explain what you did, you're good, because you've already done all the work.

22:57 So now you just have to talk about the stuff that you know best. And they're just trying to figure out what you've done. That's it. Right. You know, and then, of course, there's the qualifying exam where they're trying to like, see how much you know, and dive down deep where those I feel like those types of tests those types of tests. Those types of of events kind of harden you a little bit as a scientist to be like, I'm just going to put myself out there and just see what happens. If I get critiqued, it's not personal. Sometimes it is, but you don't take it personally. And and you just do what you got to do. And I think trying to keep them I learned early on to try and keep the emotion out of being criticized. Then you realize not that many people are criticizing you not to your face anyway, they're not telling me about it, you know, the odd person would be but everybody else is like, this is really informative. Like, I'm really enjoying the show. And so that made me that kind of boosted my confidence to I even had a professor like from Guelph where I did my undergrad, I went back to teach or I went back to talk to people about careers. And afterwards, he Professor Robinson, he came up to me and he said, How did you learn? Like to enter the way you interview? I'm like, What do you mean?

24:03 Like the questions you ask? Like, how did you learn to come up with those? How did you learn to like ask such inquisitive questions? I'm like, I just turned up like, you taught me. And he's like, What do you mean? I'm like, my professors taught me. Like, I'm curious, like this is being a scientist, like you're asking questions because you generally want to know. I'm not I was never trained as a communicator. I was never I don't even think I'm that good of a communicator. Like, like when I look at my critique myself, I'm just genuinely interested. And so I asked questions based on sometimes it's based on science, sometimes it's based on conservation and all this stuff. Now I've done so many interviews, and I have so many different perspectives and how things are done around the world, even doing beyond Jaws and really getting around the world. Now we're like, Okay, like, it's done this way in this country. Have you ever thought about doing it this way in our country or wherever, you know, it's it's it's it's now you're just pulling from other things that kind of hit you at the time, I kind of find to that, like, you kind of like there's that expression about, you know, you, if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

25:06 Yeah, but also, I always had I always had an interest in history. And I always, I was very fortunate because my professors would tell stories about old time ecologists, you know, dead ecologists, you know, long gone ecologists, but they would have a connection where they knew these people going back, you know, it'd be like your grandfather, great grandfather, and I just used to enjoy the stories here, like, what was this person really like? Yes. And what kind of motivated to do this stuff. So I always found that interesting. And then some of the journals I subscribe to, they run these stories on. Unfortunately, it's usually after they pass away. Yeah, the life history. And I know this guy just wrote a I've written a few of these obituaries for Leonard Campano, my my advisor. And and I kind of felt like when this gets into where I got to know you, we came up with this idea with the Beyond Jaws is really just to kind of tell get instead of me telling the story about, oh, yeah, so and so, you know, is to get the people actually on the podcast to tell their story in their words.

26:04 Yeah. And I think that's I think, again, young people, you know, it's I don't know how you feel, but I think it's great to be able to talk to someone who maybe you didn't know that person, but you're a connection or conduit to oil. I knew that person. And I went and talked to, you know, 100%. Like, there are people that I've looked up to my entire career who have recently passed away and that have had an impact on my career. And and so as a podcaster, now I'm like, how do I memorialize what they did for me or what they did for other people? And what type of person they are? You know, in the way I do is I we've got this, we've got these platforms, we got how to protect the ocean, we got Beyond Jaws, you know, we were able to speak to Jeff Carrier, you know, on on the podcast and people can see me.

26:50 And I think that's fantastic. I think that's one thing that I've seen in the podcast. And people can see what he's like, you know, on the podcast to just be able to talk to him and and hear from and I thought, you know, once that we know unfortunately when he passed, as sad as we were, we're like, Hey, you know, people get to know who he is through that podcast, you know. So like for people are like, Hey, have you ever heard of Jeff carrier? No. frame of reference, you know, we always talk about in science where it's like, you know, use the coral reef kind of reference where it's like coral reefs in the fifties were a lot different than what we see here. But you know, growing up in, in, you know, the 90s, the eighties, nineties and two thousands, we think of a different type of reef, right?

27:33 But we think that is what the reference reef is instead of the fifties and sixties reefs, where they were probably a lot more abundant. Well, you know, one of the people we had on, you know, like Eugenie Clark is very well known in the field. She has an award for the, through the American labs that breaks aside. And I guarantee you most because I've asked all the ones we've had on there, they didn't know like someone like Gavin Naylor, who was on the podcast was a student of hers. Yeah. And if you go back and listen to the podcast, which was one of the first ones we did with Gavin, he talks about what it was like to be a student of genies. And so like, and so I hear you can get a firsthand account. You hear about Eugenie Clark's name a lot. Well, here you hear someone and get, you know, Gavin still goes to the meetings. If you see him at the meeting, I'm sure if you buy him a beer, he'll tell you all about Jeanie Clark.

28:15 And for sure and everything. And of course there's been many others, but she's a, it was a very prominent person. And, um, and I mean, I knew her as I knew her, but I wasn't a student of hers. Gavin actually was a student of hers. And so you can talk about some of these people like in a first person, like, well, what would she like to have as an advisor? And so I think that's the kind of stuff I would think like, like with this year podcast and with the podcast we're doing with beyond jaws is sharing those stories of the people that have kind of come before us and even some in the moment now. Um, well, and to be honest, that, that customer, like one of my next points that, that has kind of led me to where I am is, is meeting all these people. Yeah. You know, it's amazing the response you get when you send out an email or you send a message or a DM and be like, Hey, I would love to feature you on my podcast.

29:03 I love your project. You know, I've been following your career for a while or just recently, I love what you're doing. I would love to promote you on the podcast and then you just have a fun conversation. And then it's not just as David, you know, cause this is how we met, not just the conversation on the podcast, I had the recording, it's the two hour conversation after, you know, where you really get to know the person where you start to really dive into who that and, and you know, there's certain people I jive with really well and there's others that just, they have to leave and it's, you know, then I thank them very much and it's great. And they have, they've done a great job on the interview and, and it's wonderful, but it's that connection that you make. And then I continue to have them on my network on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on TikTok, we're talking, we're, we're working on these volunteer projects together or we do the podcast together, you know, there's just so many ways that the opportunities have come just from having people on as a guest and doing them a favor and just being like, I really like the stuff you're doing. I would love it to, I'd love to share it with this little audience that I've built. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, and I can attest that because because I had never, you're the first podcast they ever did. Yes.

30:15 I think we spent two hours talking about sports. Then we did the podcast and we spent another two hours talking about sports. Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, then we ended up doing a shark podcast and we should really probably be doing a sports podcast, but I'll be later on. We just run out of time. Dave, we just have no more times with all these podcasts. Oh, I know. I know. And I want to say one thing and I can, Andrew mentioned this, but I can't, I tell you, this guy works his, his tail off because I'll, I'm on the West coast out here in California and he's, he's in the East coast in Toronto and like, we'll, we'll be what's happening. It'll be like nine o'clock my time. And he's, I think he's gone to bed. He's still what's happening. Obviously I got to record a show here there. And I'm thinking like, dude, you got to get up in a few hours and actually go to work and stuff. So he's, you, it takes a dedication and a passion to be able to, to do that kind of come home from a day's job and then saddle up and just do a whole spend the night working on your podcasts or podcasts that you're doing. Yeah.

31:11 Yeah. People underestimate how much work it is, you know, when, when you're doing a podcast that regularly, um, like I'm at, I'm over 1900 episodes to give people context. I think I've mentioned on this podcast before we've mentioned on the other podcasts and we're, I think over a hundred on like, but we do once, once every two weeks. So we're, we've done a lot as well. Uh, not even counting how many interviews we've actually done because there's still the guitar fish wedge fish, supposing them still getting over those interviews for interviews per episode. Yeah. Um, but, but you know, it's, it's, you know, when people look at what's needed to be done, there's, there's, you know, especially if you have an interview, there's, you reach out to the person, person says, yes, you do your research. You come up with a set of questions. Um, you do a little pre-interview right before you record, you record the interview that takes like 45 minutes to an hour. Uh, afterwards you talk maybe an hour or two, um, you know, or a half hour, depending on the person. Uh, and then after that you have to process it, you have to edit it, you have to put it together, maybe do an intro and outro to it. If it's a solo show, you just do it in one shot. Then you have to go through the processing. You have to come up with a transcript.

32:26 You have to do the show notes, the blog posts, you have to do the social media posts, a newsletter. Um, you know, there could now with the YouTube component and everything, it, it takes hours, you know, now obviously I do, I do it on my own. I do have an editor now because of the, the, the videos. Um, but you know, it's, it's allows like, and I use a lot of AI to, to help me with, with processing everything, uh, to give time back. You know, I, I want like, I'm at a point now in my life where I want time back in my evenings, you know, so I can relax. I'm getting older. I'm almost 48. You know, it's, I want my time back. I know, I know, I know, I know.

33:08 I'm not as old as you. I understand. Go there, man. But you, but, but Dave, I'll tell you something. Like you work your butt off. I, I'll give you that, but you also, you enjoy your time with your family, your folks, you enjoy your time swimming. You enjoy, like as I think at sometimes as, as marine biologists, uh, we tend to burn ourselves out a lot by doing all these passion projects or doing stuff for free or for you, Dave, like, you know, people email you all the time. Like, Hey, I found this, like, can you help me identify it? That kind of stuff. Um, you know, other projects that you do workshops and everything. I know that of course the travel. So it's like when we have the downtime, I've realized, you know, at my age that downtime is really important. Um, and, and, you know, I, I tell that to young marine biologists too. It's like, yeah, get your work done if you want, you know, build your skills, do that what you need, but also don't forget to enjoy, enjoy yourself too.

33:59 Like having some downtime. If I was gonna say one other thing I'd say too, at my age is that reinventing yourself and like in my case, getting into this, um, uh, doing this science communication, the podcast and the stuff I've been doing with you. Um, I, if you had asked me 20 years ago, even when I was, when I was your age, I would have been like, I was just pretty much the science. That's what it was. Yeah. I mean, the landscapes changed a lot because they're never, there wasn't really the opportunities with the different platforms now, but I was pretty much hardcore. I love doing the science. I mean, I hate to use the term hardcore, but I loved, I mean, I was just excited about it every day. I'm like, Oh wow, I'm gonna go. Let's see what you discover today. It's Christmas again. Yes. Every day. Um, but I also found, you know, it's like, is I kind of advanced in my career. I get to point where it's like, well, do I need to do another, you know, whatever publications or this and that. I still enjoy doing that, but I've kind of learned in a whole new area, like the science communication thing. I've kind of been on this journey with you really. Yeah. It's been a really exciting to me because it's like, it's just a whole something new. It's a challenge.

35:08 It is to learn this stuff and it really, and I can tell you it, it's a lot of work. If people listening out there, like, oh, if you think you're like, I'll go start a podcast. It's a lot of work and I don't do a fraction of what Andrew does, but I can tell you for they just do in our, our beyond jaws podcast. It's a, it's a, it's a passion project now for me to really enjoy it, but it's, it's not, it's not easy and it takes time to do. And I think you told me this, Andrew, like most podcasts are maybe, maybe get 10 episodes tops out of that. Yeah. If that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. And you know, we're, we're up around to think about almost about 150 episodes now for the beyond jaws. So it's not, again, we got a long ways to catch up to your other show, but, but, but concern we started from nothing. It was a concept and an idea really.

35:53 And, and it kept it on. I think, I think the thing I always, I, I, I always go by the mantra. It's like, I'm going to outwork everybody else. Yeah. I may not have the best skillset. I may not have the, the, the, I may not be the most intelligent person in the room, but I'm going to be, I'm going to work the heck out of you. And I learned that at a young age playing football is I can outwork you. And if I outwork you, then I'm going to, I'm going to have a one up on you, you know, and it's going to benefit me in every way. And, and I think, you know, you talk, you talk about doing the pivot. I, I, I've pivoted a few times. I didn't know after my masters didn't know where I was going to fit in coming home to Ontario. I didn't know where, if I was ever going to find something I liked it. Like I said, I did the, the, the marine consulting or the environmental consulting didn't love it.

36:44 I went into, I worked a little bit nonprofit, like German masters and it was fun, but like it doesn't pay much. It's hard to have a, like to have a family on those types of salaries and live in the area that we live in. We live in a very expensive area in Southern Ontario or not very expensive, but it's, it's, it's tough to live. Like we got in at the right time. Let's just say, you know, nowadays, I don't know if I can afford a home if I was starting out today. I don't think many of us could, but regardless, you know, there, there it's just, it's, it's a, it's a difficult, it's a difficult thing. And when you don't really feel like you're in the place where you belong and like, you know, I never felt satisfied with doing something until I started doing science communication because I was, I started to get really good at it.

37:34 And, and in terms of like, I enjoyed it a lot. Every time I do an interview still to this day, I get pumped. I don't even go talk to my wife about it. My wife would be like, oh my God, here he goes. Like, he's ready to talk about science. But yeah, like I get, I get super excited because it's something new. I get to talk, especially when I get to talk to either, you know, colleagues have come on a number of times or, you know, with, with people that I've, I've, I'm just first meeting and getting to know their projects. It's an exciting time for me to do it. And so it was like, once I found that out, once I figured that out, I started to tell myself, I'm like, this is what I want to do. You know, in, in marine, this is where I'm, this is where I'm going to excel. And I didn't know if it was going to be continuing with the podcast on my own and building that out as a business, which I didn't know how to do at any point in time. I don't have Joe Rogan numbers. I don't want to be Joe Rogan, but I don't have Joe Rogan numbers.

38:25 Who's the highest, like, he's probably the person who gets the most podcast downloads per episode. But I also like I really like doing this. So I didn't know if that was going to be it or if I was going to find a job with somebody. And I have applied to a lot of science communication jobs over the years. And I don't know if it was just, I didn't communicate well what I do, or people. I also wonder if the marine conservation world don't really have an understanding of how powerful podcasting is in a way for marine science, right? If I can speak from a just having gone, I've kind of transverses these different eras. And one of the things in the science fields, and I think it will obviously speak firsthand to marine science, but I think a lot of sciences, the problem has been communicating to the public.

39:20 You got to, there's been very few people, and I'd say even today, that are really credible scientists that actually cross over and do like the podcast type of stuff or science outreach stuff. Most of the people, they're one or the other. They find a niche in the end. I'm not saying either one's bad, but if somebody you have somebody understands the science and they can communicate that because the scientists traditionally and even today, I think a lot of the ones that do a lot of the really cutting edge stuff, they're busy doing their cutting edge stuff and they just don't have time to talk to people. And when they do, then they don't break it down to the so the average person can understand what they're talking about.

40:01 Right. You know, I've talked about one of my favorite things. I've talked about one of my mentors early in my career, John McCasker, who is the director of the Steinhardt Aquarium. And he was and I kind of realized at the time that he was one of the few people I knew who could take a complicated thing and he could literally because I was with him sometimes. He could talk to like, you know, the guys in the dock about something and just in simple terms. I don't mean simple terms, but in a layman's term that they can understand. He wasn't talking down to him. But they'd like, oh, yeah, I know I get with no, I know I understand that and unfortunately, most people in the field don't do that. I was fortunate. I recognized it with them. But you know, he was one of the few at that time that could do that. Most of the people would get really enthusiastic. And I'd hear this over and over like, wow, that guy really is enthusiastic. But I have no idea what he's talking about.

40:52 Exactly. Or, or they don't care enough. It's not enticing enough. You know, people are used to storytelling. Yeah. And we need to bring that emotion back into storytelling from the science. You know, we need to extrapolate the science that people need to know. We need to put it in a way that people and that takes a while for scientists to be able to do because we've been trained to be analytical. We've been trained to as Randy Olson says, you know, speak to the brain. So if I give you facts, you should be able to understand it. And that will therefore that will change your behavior because it's a logical thing to do. Humans don't act logically a lot of times, a lot of times will act on emotion. So if you make it funny, sad, you make them angry, make them happy.

41:33 That was like you go for their gut. That's what it does. But I think, you know, going back to what going back to what you're saying in terms of like why podcasts is such a good platform is people listen to podcasts longer than any other platform. Maybe YouTube now is a little bit better because getting a little longer. But even then, you know, you're looking at, you know, these short form video platforms like Instagram and TikTok, you're looking at under three minutes. YouTube, you're looking at between three to five minutes podcasts. On average, people listen between 20 and 45 minutes because you can take your little device here and take it out. You know, you can take your little you can take your device and go out and, you know, push your earbuds on or whatever and go for a walk. You can go for a walk.

42:18 You can go for a drive. Yeah, go exercise. I mean, I sometimes, you know, especially in California, people, you know, those they'll commute one to two hours a day each way going to work and you put on a podcast, you know, you're good. You know, yeah, you know, put on Beyond Jaws, hopefully, or how to protect the ocean and, you know, so yeah. Yeah. So tell us about this job. You just yeah, career change. So yeah, so so I am now as of so this is going to go up the Good Friday. So as of next week, if whenever you're listening, as of the seventh, I'm going to be an oceans communication manager for consulting firm called Pisces Ocean and their tagline is eliminating barriers to oceans project success, Ocean Project success.

43:07 And the idea behind that is we work with clients that could be for profit companies, nonprofit organizations, academic institutions that have projects and we help them not only we have kind of like pillars. So we'll do like strategic consulting. That's one pillar. We'll have another pillar. That's that's like project management and grant management for projects. And then and then there's the communication side. So the idea around all of it as it fits together is we help make their projects more successful, you know, by helping them. Like a lot of academic institutions, usually they'll have labs or they'll have, you know, collaborative project, let's just say, and they may not have the resources to handle the, you know, all the administration for grants or how to manage that project or they may not have the people to do the project management, but they also may not have the consulting and they may not be able to tell their story properly, you know, and so we work with clients to do that.

44:04 And I'll be the ocean communications manager. I've, you know, obviously I have a science background, have the communication background. So we'll be working with clients from all over, you know, the spectrum of working in the ocean. I always like to say working with companies, projects, nonprofits who have a net positive impact on the ocean. And so that's like, you know, the consulting that I did back, you know, in the early 2000s was all about working with companies who have almost a net negative impact on the ocean here, we're working with the opposite. And it's exciting because there's, there's, there's going to be, you know, clients that are working with AI to reroute shipping channels to so that they stay away from high biodiversity areas or out of Wales migration routes and still be efficient for, for, for, for gas and diesel and stuff like that. So all these different types of projects that we get to work with it.

45:01 It, it won. I remember I told you, I really like working on different projects when I was working for DFO, like I get to do the same thing here and I get to do communications. So that includes a number of different things and it'll be different for every client, but maybe helping them with podcasting, helping them with social media, helping them design their website, just really strategize on the storytelling aspect. And that'll be, that'll be the fun part. I get to use my creativity. I get to use the sun, like the science. And then I get to bring that all together into telling like a really good story for each of those clients that are unique to them, the clients, but also something that people can really, you know, grab, grab a hold of and, and, and learn and be able to speak about as well.

45:42 So super exciting. You know, it's, it's a, it came from the person who hired me Natalie Gilson, who's the co-CEO at this company. We've been, we've been friends for, for a few years now. I, she found me through the podcast. She was working, she had her own marketing shop. She wanted to get more of, work in an area where she had more of an impact, especially on the ocean because she loved the ocean so much. And then she found the podcast and she's like, this is great. This guy's Canadian. We actually lived, we didn't at the time, we didn't live, we lived maybe like 45 minutes away from each other. We had some conversation. I had her on the podcast. You know, we just talked a lot about different things. And then recently at the world ocean conference, I got, I got offered a job to work with her and, and which we had talked about on and off for a bit.

46:31 Uh, just never came to be at the, at the right time. And, uh, now it's like super exciting. We're Ray, we're gung ho for, for doing this. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's pretty exciting on a number of different levels, Dave, not only cause of the job I get to do, but the work that I put in over the last like 16 years in communication to get all that experience to get, um, you know, to do something that I love full time. You know, I've been working, one thing that we haven't really discussed, I've been working a separate job for the last like six and a half years just to, just to pay the bills and I was working in software, which I had a great time doing. I love the people I work with. I learned a lot. Um, but it wasn't like, I always, there's always still this hole like that.

47:16 I'm like, I didn't belong there. I belong to do something different and more important for me. Right. And I think, you know, you said the thing you said there too. And like, you know, you talk, talked earlier about how I kind of like have a where I'm at in my life. Now I have different things, but you know, back when I was younger than you even, but even at that point, you know, I, and I've talked a little about this in some of the shows, but you know, I did a lot of different things, but I kept my eye on the ball where I wanted to go. And that's, that's the big thing. It's been people talk about going in the field and you know, they're 28 years old and they can't figure out where they can't find a job. It's like, well, you know, it might take you a while to, to after grad school to, uh, to, I mean, it, it was 10 years, at least.

47:57 Yeah. After I finished my PhD before I, uh, before I actually found a job, actually probably a little more than 20, 10 years, I worked and I worked, I worked in aquaculture. Yeah. You know, and I, and it was abalone, right? Yeah. I did abalone for 10 years. Yeah. And, uh, it was a business. My brother and I started with a few other partners just because we couldn't find a job. So we just literally created our own job. And, uh, but what I kept doing though, and this is exactly what you did. I'd finished it. And when you're in your business for yourself, like aquaculture, you're farming it. So it's not like an eight to five job, but when I'd finish up the end of the day, I'd go home and every night, three, four hours, usually till midnight or so, I would be at home working on papers, doing a different, you know, projects.

48:41 I was working on my shark. That was my shark time. Like, I mean, you and I are so parallel like that, Andrew. Oh, yeah. And I did that for 10 years. And so until I had an opportunity to go back into doing sharks and that sometimes you have to do that extra. And the only reason I got the job when it opened up was because they saw me at conferences. I was, I was publishing more papers at the, in the nineties than people with actual jobs in the field. Yeah. And so like, uh, and I was fortunate, my former advisor, Greg Kai, recognize that. And when he had an opportunity with some funding, he had, he hired me to come in and run the Pacific shark research center with them and started up.

49:21 And, but it was the same thing. Like I was, you know, my days didn't end till after midnight pretty much. And I had to be up at five to go do so, you know, maybe getting five hours sleep at night. Oh, I know that very familiar. That's why when I get these messages from you and I know it's after midnight your time, I, I appreciate that. And I'm very respectful because I know I was there for a lot of years. And then he kind of hit that point now where like I still put it, I put in the pretty good times, but you've got other commitments and just like, you know, I don't, I don't need to be up to one o'clock this morning doing that at this point in my life and stuff, you know, I'm like, I'm going to do this separate and build those skills. Like you have to have a good workflow where like, I'm going to work these days and you got to set boundaries and other days I'm going to have some time off, you know, and, and now, like, I'm going to do this separate and build those skills.

50:25 And, and, and now like it's paid off where, you know, there's going to be the podcast is going to be involved, not always with, with Pisces, like where I'm working now, but there'll be some clients that we have on the podcast there because they're, they're really important to what, what I want to do with the, with the podcast. And so there's going to be a blend in that a little bit. So it's not always going to be separate. It's not always going to be like, I have to stay up till 11 just to record podcasts or something like that. No, like I'll be able to do it pretty early. Also, I'll get my evenings back. That's what I'm, I'm really excited. Cause not only am I going to be working my butt off during the day for Pisces and the podcast, but it's like, I get my evenings back. You know, I get to work out again on a regular basis.

51:06 I get to spend time with my kids a little bit more, you know, my wife, you know, a little bit more like it's just, just to relax a little bit more, you know, and, and, and that's, that's important to me at this point in time. And, and to get to a point where I can, you know, eight hours a day, I've been saying this for, for 16 years, I just want to get to a point where I can work on oceans during the day, eight hours a day. And now I get to do that. I think it's, I think it's really great. And I get to work with these, these great companies, organizations and projects that are doing good for the ocean. And, and, you know, I get to have a hand in that. And I think that's, that's really great. And, and I'll tell you like that. The, you know, the interview was very, there was, there was like, you can almost say there was no formal interview process.

51:52 This was done over years and it was done getting to know each other and how we work together and doing relationships, the networks, it's a relationship, right? It's working on volunteer projects together, seeing how we are, you know, personality wise. So it's almost been, I guess, like a three to four year interview process. If you really want to put it that way, but we work really well together and, and, and I've met like, this is going to be a small boutique consulting firm from now we will be growing and, and I'll hopefully be part of that. And, and, you know, I'm looking to, to like really do some great things and I'll talk about it on the podcast. Of course, I'll talk about it on Beyond Jaws and stuff, but this is going to be a lot of fun. So I'm like ready to dive in, you know, head first on, on this and, um, and, and, and kick some, kick some butt for the ocean. Great. Well, well, Daniel will definitely have to have you back on the show here.

52:42 And I'll check the ocean and, uh, and find follow up on how it's going with the job. And we'll certainly talk about it on the Beyond Jaws podcast as well. Yes. And, um, and I just want to, want to thank you for coming on the show today and, uh, you bet. Thank you for having me as a guest. And so, uh, we'll see how the, we'll see how the show does in the, in the, uh, metrics here. And you might see me after the show after this. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's insane. Of course we're going to have you back. We'll have you back for your own stuff too. And, and people like check out how to protect the ocean. Like we talk about careers all the time. Sorry, beyond Jaws, you know, we talked to people who are meandering in and out of careers. Like we say this every time and, and people agree with us that our guests agree with us is it's not a straight path. It's very rare where it's a straight path from going from graduate school or going from undergrad and working right in there and doing exactly what you want because science is different.

53:37 And you never know what you're going to love, whether it's the science side, the conservation side, the business side, you never know what you're going to be able to do. Uh, and where it's going to lead you to. And then there's going to be pivots. There's going to be that, but check out beyond Jaws because, uh, that, that podcast really shows in real life what it's like. And if I get one other plug to the other, uh, the, uh, my other YouTube channel, which is on, uh, law shark guy, we got his documentary series. Andrew is working on with me to a certain titled searching for law sharks, extinctioner live. And I tell stories literally. And that's a whole other thing for not conversation for another time. But I blundered into, but it's, it's share stories. And one thing I have to share it and say about, you know, being on my point in career and you're this next, this next episode is kind of, I share a lot of my own personal journey and connection with a lot of these sharks that we're looking for.

54:26 And the next one, the river sharks stories coming up here. Oh man, it's a good one. The next 10 days or so. Uh, check it out because I, I, I talk in that one and share about how the whole field of, uh, in person. Uh, in part, uh, shark conservation started because there was no field when I started there was, it's hard for young people to think about this and we'll talk about this maybe on one of our beyond jaws, but there was no field of shark conservation when I started out in the eighties. It just didn't exist. It was not, it was not a term at all. So, uh, people didn't want to know that much about it. Well, and it goes to be asked to go show like that work, my work on that, doing the editing for that. You know, doing the editing for videos, doing the editing for podcasting, whether they're videos or audio, uh, you know, doing social media, doing newsletter management, doing webinar management, all of these things have helped me get this job.

55:17 Yeah. You know, to a point where like I have to do, my new boss was like, how have you not been hired for this type of job earlier? When you, so when someone says that to you, you're like, okay, like this is kind of cool. And then you realize like, I got to start talking about more what I do because people don't realize, but yeah, like that's, that's really what it comes down to. And like the, I talked about earlier this week in one of our episodes. Like if you can't find experience by doing a job, you can, there's a lot of ways you can do it yourself and, and, and figure that out as sacrificing. There's no doubt about it. For me, it was time and some sleep, but for the most part, you know, you can do it and, and you can do it pretty well and still have a life while you do it.

55:58 Like I, I have to admit, like my podcast frequency of publishing is, is a little insane and because I love it so much, but you know, for most people who want to do one show a week or one show a month or one show every two weeks, it's not as it's, it's work, but it's not as bad as you think. And so, you know, definitely think about that because, because communication is a big, big growing part of this, of the conservation field. So with that said, Dave, thanks for hosting. I do appreciate it. No problem, buddy. And we'll look forward to having you back on soon. And I will be asking you the questions next time. Okay. All right. Thanks a lot. Thanks everyone for joining us today. Happy conservation. Bye bye.