US oil and gas drilling: How This Plan Could Put America’s Coasts at Risk for a Generation

0:00 Oil spills are nightmares that don't end when the headlines fade. They linger for decades in our oceans, our wildlife, and the health of the people who respond to them. And right now, the US is facing a new offshore drilling plan that could shape the future of the coast for generations This moment. Joseph Gordon from Oceana says, is a crossroads for the us. We either lock ourselves deeper into fossil fuels, or we choose a safer, cleaner future for the oceans. We're gonna talk about all this with Joseph on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the. Protect the Ocean Podcast.

0:40 I'm your host, and/or Lewin, Marine biologist and science communicator here to tell you what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And today is all about taking action. We are gonna be talking about the new offshore plan, drilling plan for the us. There are a number of leases that are up for lease for companies all over the world in Alaska, in California. The northern part of the Gulf of Mexico, as well as Florida, not the Atlantic, but just Florida area. We're gonna be talking about that. We're gonna be talking about what's the reality of this happening? What's happened in the past during the first Trump's presidential, I guess, life, I guess for the four years, last time he was president.

1:24 And we're gonna be talking about how that could affect this time. His presidency now and his administration. It's a five year plan. They're gonna be talking about drilling at some point. There are stages to go through, but each stage could pose a problem for wildlife coastlines in each state that these areas are posed. Not only just the. States, but around the world, how these potential oil spills, which usually do happen, and how big they can be, and what consequences that could be in the future, not just for oil spills directly, but also the contribution of all these oil platforms and oil drilling would have to climate change and our future generations of people who are trying to deal with the consequences of climate change. One of the things that we like to do here on the podcast is talk about the ocean.

2:06 And being able to talk about the oceans, we're able to talk about a lot of different things. We're able to talk about what the consequences is of having a plan like this, of drilling oil and not going more towards investing more towards renewals. We could talk about coral reefs and the benefits of having them instead of not having them. And one of the things that I would like to talk about and I would like to propose to launch a podcast on is the Seagrass Meadows. The Seagrass Meadows around the world provide such an important part to the coastline. Not only for biodiversity, not only for protection as a nursery habitats, but also just carbon sequestration. Being able to battle climate change a lot more of the up to four to 10 times more than forests are able to sequester carbon, and it's gonna be really important in our future to have more.

2:49 Healthy seagrasses and by donating today to support our crowdfund campaign for the podcast, a Seagrass Effect to Launch and work for the first year. You can not only help launch us and have us talk about research, conservation and restoration of these Seagrass Meadows around the world, but we can also introduce you to the people who are involved, have them connect over this podcast as well as. Donate towards protecting a particular Seagrass Meadow, specific Seagrass meadow of our choice. And we'll give you updates as we go through the podcast. So, so call the Seagrass Effect. If you go to speak up for blue.com/seagrass, you will be able to get access to behind the scenes of what we're doing with seagrass.

3:31 What we're doing with Seagrass Meadows, how we're helping to restore them, all that kinda stuff. Plus you get to hear the podcast itself. So the faster we get this funded, the faster I get to launch. I can't wait to do that. Speak up for blue.com/seagrass. Now let's get back to talking about climate change and oil and gas and how that can affect this plan, how this can affect the US for future generations. So I have Joseph Gordon from Ocean. He's a campaign director. On the podcast today to talk about oil and energy as well as the oceans within the US confines, like within the US borders, which is like 200 nautical miles off of their shore. It's something that's really important.

4:11 Joseph is here to talk about how important it's for us as individuals to speak up, whether you're in the country or outside the country, why it's important, how it's helped in the past, and also like using every connection you have to help stop this plan. That's really what it comes down to. If you know people who are in powerful positions, if you know tourist boards or if you're a surfer or you work with surf rider like in a volunteer capacity or you're part of their crew, if you've worked all over the place with Oceania helping them put public comments on encouraging other people to speak up and speak out against this plan, it's gonna be super, super important. So I want you guys to listen to this interview very carefully 'cause this demands action from you.

4:51 This is gonna be a really important aspect in stopping this plan and severely reducing the amount of lease plots that have happened. It worked last time in Trump's first presidential time, I guess, or range, but we need to make it work this time as well. 'cause the attack against the ocean from oil and gas is continuing to happen and it can have a profound effect for generation. So with that said. Here's the interview with Joseph Gordon from Oceana. Enjoy and I'll talk to you after. Hey Joseph, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about the new offshore drilling plan? Very ready. Alright. Looking forward to it. Yeah, me too. I'm looking forward to this has been in the making for a while ever since.

5:32 The plan was leaked, uh, and people have been getting their hands on bits and pieces, or there's rumors flying around. Uh, I've been wanting to have someone like yourself out and it has been really great. 'cause I've been having, I've had a really great relationship with your comms team. We've had other people, your colleagues from Oceana out before. Uh, and it was just nice to be able to have someone who is very much. In line with what would happen if this offshore plan came to be, there's an open comment period where people can comment their, we know their feelings on it and what they want to do. So what I want to do today is have you want to give my audience the information to, uh, sort of, I guess, uh. Arm themselves with what they need to know if they want to do a, a public comment and how that works and what's more effective, but really get the information on the plan and how that could affect the ocean in and around the, the US coastline.

6:25 So we're gonna talk all about that. Okay. But before we do, Joseph, why don't we just get to know you a little bit? Why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do. Okay. Uh, so my name's Joseph Gordon. I am the campaign director for Oceana. Uh, my main focus is climate and energy. Uh, so, but from the perspective of oceans and how to, uh, continue to have thriving healthy oceans and energy for the future, I love it. I love it that this is a, this is a big thing to be in charge of for, for this campaign, you know, uh, it's a, it's a huge thing. Um, how did you get into this, this line of work? Like where did it all begin?

7:07 Um, I always loved the ocean. I was, uh, at some point dreamed about being a Marine biologist, but I think for me it was the first time I went snorkeling. Mm-hmm. And to see, uh, it was like a, you know, a Disney movie, but like everything was alive around you. Everything had its place and fit together. Fish swirling around and just to see that and realize that something like that could exist. Mm-hmm. Capture my imagination. Um, I'm endlessly interested in oceans, always fascinated by, uh, life. And then as I got older, I worked on different environmental issues, but when I worked on oceans, I just, the more I learned as an adult to know that like right off New York City, it's like billions of fish and imagine like hundreds of lions and thousands of tigers descending.

7:55 It's just like this amazing scenes happening all around us. Uh, And so I love the oceans and having an opportunity to protect them was core for me. And I worked on fisheries in coastal habitat for decades. Um, but then when there was an opportunity to shift and to work on climate and to work on stopping the expansion of offshore drilling, I took it. I love it. But that is, it's interesting how, you know, you go from this, like the loving of fish, but then you're like, okay, I gotta stop this from happening. Where did that education come from? Where did you, you know, kind of find out, you know, oil and gas and oceans are not mixing well. Uh, and, and you need to do something to stop it.

8:35 So where did that, we know the passion came from, but where did that education come from And then how did you end up, you know, wanting to be on like a campaign director? Yeah. Life takes you d on different paths and sometimes in a way you didn't expect for me. Probably my formative experience, and I'm gonna date myself here, but my formative environmental experience was Exxon Valdez. Right? Right. For the next generation, it's probably deep water horizon, but for me, seeing oil animals washing on shore, like seeing, imagining like what Alaska was And then seeing so much destruction, um, I think that was the first time I really realized that I wanted to be an environmentalist and that that had to change.

9:20 Uh, because, uh, you know, the idea of being an environmentalist as a career is pretty new. Um, yeah. But to me, like that felt like my passion and what I wanted to do. And so working on fisheries and habitat, stopping over fishing or storing habitats and deep sea corals, you start to look at what those habitats are and how mm-hmm. Fragile they are. Yeah. Like to imagine something growing for a thousand years, uh, And then what an oil spill could do. So I I, in one fell swoop opportunity, right? Just in one fell swoop. In one fell swoop Yeah. Yeah. It could be, it could be very damaging. You know, I was, I was a kid when, when Ex Exxon, ex Exxon Valdez happened.

10:00 We all watched it. We all saw the birds covered in like black, thick oil. You know, the, the, it, it was, you know, seeing the dead animals along the side. It was, it was awful. And even then, we didn't know what we know now. You know, even with, I, I always tell people like the deep water horizon spill was probably one of the biggest, uh, things that got me into communication because we really got to see. People go down and talk about what was happening, but not just from an environmental perspective, also from, you know, other fishers that were down there and tourists, uh, operations, that, how they were affected and how like completely little towns were affected along that shoreline.

10:44 And, and I think that was the, the, the thing that got me is just, we just don't understand not only the, the environmental impact, but also the people. They also get affected. By this, this huge disruption for years to come. It's not just that, you know, they put out the dispersements And then it disappears And then you can start up again. It's, no, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, a, you know, decatal kind of, uh, recovery. And, and I think that's what, you know, we obviously, we all try to prevent. Um, And then now, you know, trying to look at these plans and be like, what's, what's happening? Um, how did you get started? How long have you, how long have you been with Oceania? And how did you get started with that? Um, can I pause because you actually raised something really powerful in what you said.

11:25 Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Um, So this is a 15 year anniversary of Deepwater Horizon and a lot of research has been done and there's a parallel phenomenon that happened, the Um, So you have to imagine oil spill. It's like, um, imagine a cloud of oil raining down from the sky and there's no way to get away, right? And you have to breathe the oil. Yeah, and the Marine mammals, like dolphins will swim, but they have to come to the surface to breathe. So they were affected by the chemicals, the dispersements and the oil. Yeah. Um, and have had over time huge health impacts from that. Mm-hmm. But it's also true of the first responders, the people who came to help clean up. They've done multi-thousand person studies of the health effects, and they have had huge long-term health impacts.

12:12 So an oil spill is a nightmare at the time. And the visual images we saw, of course, but now we know it's a nightmare for decades to come. Yeah, that's, and, and I, that's a good, I'm glad you, you hit home on that point because, you know, we don't, we don't see that afterwards we, we, we understand like, you know, BP had to pay a bunch of money to that, to, to this fund where we could do more research. We, as in the scientific community, especially within the Gulf States and, And so forth, but. We're still finding problems. You know, we still haven't fully recovered. There's still, like you even mentioned, like the, the, you know, Marine mammals and sharks and fish and invertebrates all over the place in that area have actually, still have effects and spreads.

12:54 It doesn't just stay in one spot. So, um, I'm glad you mentioned that point. Uh, but just going back to my question, Yeah. Yeah. Because I know we're gonna get into that, uh, you know, and how it all filters in. But, uh, how did you get involved with Oceania and, and, and becoming like a campaigner. Yeah, I had been working and leading a teams working on, uh, fisheries in coastal habitat. Uh, so for a couple decades, um, working on the reauthorization of the Federal Fisheries Law Implementation and regions in the Mid-Atlantic. Worked on some of the biggest protected areas in the Atlantic, uh, ecosystem based management for the biggest forge fish in the Atlantic. And then, uh, we had a switch, a transition, and um, I started doing some consulting with National Ship Protection Coalition and, uh, Marine protected areas.

13:41 And then this opportunity opened up through, a friend said, would you be interested in doing climate and energy being a campaign director at Oceana? Uh, yeah. And that's two, about two years ago, right? To the day now. Nice. Uh, and, um, I, it was a big transition. I was excited about it. I thought at the time, what are we, what am I even gonna do? There's so many people working on climate and not at all, there's huge opportunity to make a difference. Um, and I would never have predicted the rollercoaster year that we've had from Biden protecting 625 million acres to now working to stop massive drilling plan in those same ac, you know, areas.

14:23 Yeah. Um, and I think it's gonna be a story. Our hope is it's gonna be a hopeful story of through administrations, through political change, the bipartisan traditions hold strong, that people don't want new drilling off their coast. Yeah, I mean, I, I feel like that's become pretty, not only from a national level, but an international level too. You know, nobody wants to see that in their, in their backyard and, and 'cause we know what the effects can be in, in the past. Um, plus with the, with the, the amount of renewals that are coming up, new renewal, uh, energy, uh, plants and stuff like that that are coming up, it, it really helps. So. Let, let's, let's get into it.

15:05 Okay. Because something you, you mentioned, uh, you know, just, just a year ago before, uh, Trump's administration came in, you mentioned that there was a lot of protection along, along the shoreline from, from oil and gas drilling and, and exploration And so forth. Can you talk a little bit about that? What we, what we had a year ago in the US and what we saw in the, I'm in Canada, but what, what we saw in, in the US and, and uh, and what that meant, And then how that's changed under the new administration. Hmm. Um, I'll take the liberty of starting just a bit earlier and get to Please do where, um, it was pretty remarkable. We were talking about earlier how the Trump administration, the first Trump administration came in.

15:49 Right to open up everything. Their original Prosple was to open up every coast. Yeah, almost every coast in the United States. And by the end, that didn't happen. And in fact, president Trump protected for 10 years North Carolina to Florida, And then President Biden had strong commitments to trying to, uh, stop the expansion of offshore drilling and in ear. It was actually earlier this year on January 6th. Uh, president Biden protected 625 million acres the entire East coast, west Coast. Mm-hmm. Uh, Florida's Gulf Coast and areas off Alaska. And, uh, that was a, a big historic moment. Yep. Uh, I remember that on his first day in office, president Trump did an executive order attempting to reverse that, and he's put forward a plan that in the initial stage, opened everything to offshore drilling for consideration.

16:41 But then the recent plan that just came out. The Atlantic and Pacific Northwest are taken out, And so we're now talking about areas off Florida. Right? California and Alaska are on the table right now. Okay. So nothing else. Just Florida, California and Alaska and the Western and Central Gulf. But those are an ex coming through the Congre. Congress passed and the big. You know HR one, the big bill that they passed at the beginning of the year. Okay. They included a massive expansion in Cook Inlet in Alaska And then in the Western Central Gulf. Okay. So there is a phenomenal, like the first lease sale's about to come up. Yeah. 80 million acres is wow in, and that's the first of 30.

17:27 Yeah, in the Western and Central Gulf. And so, uh, area is off Louisiana and Texas. Some of these areas are definitely facing huge pressure for expanded drilling. Mm-hmm. So that's a part of this plan too. Um, yeah. But we're gonna try and stop what we can. Well, and, and it's interesting too because like in certain parts off the coast of Louisiana, there's called, like what we know is Oil City, which is just like a platform. Like a, basically a size of a, a small city of just platforms and platforms and platforms and platforms of drilling that's already ongoing. Uh, they want to get more in there. You're saying be, is it in that area or is it more west of it? All of it.

18:07 All of it. When you're talking 80 million acres. 30 of 80 million. We're talking about every inch of the Western and Central Gulf over time. Right, right. Auction And so that's auctions along the continental shelf right there. Like that's not past it all the way out. All the way out. Okay. Wow. And now there was a, a thing that they were talking about, and I don't know if this is, this is true or not, there's a way that they can go like out further than the Continental Shelf. I know they have an agreement with Mexico, but there's a way they can go further. I know that was with Deep Sea Mine they were talking about, but I don't know if it's still the same with the, like for drilling. Can they drill beyond this? The, the, uh, the, the Continental shelf? The only place where that's under consideration in this plan is there's a new area called the hi arctic.

18:52 Right. That there's some consideration That's part of the plan. Okay. And you just have to imagine in the D like cold, like slow, evolving species. The fragile environments, the, Yeah, the ice. All the ways that there could be a horrific oil spill far from land where it would be hard to get to, hard to stop cause irreparable damage. And there's other pieces too. There's shipping, there's military uses in those areas. Mm-hmm. Uh, so those not just devoid of people. There are many uses out there. And structure and oil spills could cause huge harm. So we're we definitely.

19:34 We would oppose the expansion of drilling in those deeper areas too. I think the Hi Arctic is the one area be, you know, that sort of extends beyond Right. Typical US waters. Okay. One thing that was surprising to me was seeing that they were, uh, like they were, they were, they were trying to go against, like, try and drill along Florida. Now that's interesting to me. That's a Republican state. Last time he, uh, Trump was president, he tried to do the same thing. Uh, but then Florida got taken off as well. As you mentioned before, we recorded up, up the, uh, Carolina coast. Do you think that that is a place that that's gonna continue? And I guess, I guess the question is not just in Florida, but all these other places.

20:18 This is the plan to explore, not necessarily drill Um, So it's just the plan itself. There's still a lot to go on before any, like, any drilling can happen. Um, but I guess first start off, do you think Florida's gonna stay on the plan for long given that it's a Republican state? And the last time, you know, Republicans didn't want it, that I think it was the governor said, no, let's take it off. And he did take it off. Do you think that's a chance that they might take it off as well? Again, we, we were so, uh. Please. Like it was so amazing last week to see the continued bipartisan, overwhelming opposition.

21:00 There was a letter from every single member of Congress, from Florida, every Republican, democrat, every senator, every representative. The governor wrote a statement and the military base eglin that covers nearly all of the Eastern Gulf of Mexico. It's the national testing and training range for military. Yeah. Uh, which does not want structure or flammable materials or oil spills happening. All of those in, you know, strong statements right out of the gates after this plan was introduced. So we certainly hope that the president, like last time will hear those voices and pull it out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And withdraw Florida. Uh, there, there is such strong opposition. That's, and those are the elected officials, but also the people, the public.

21:43 Yeah. Uh, and fishing. They don't to on the coastline. Yeah. And they all, and they all lived through, almost all lived through deep water horizon. Yes. So they remember. Yeah. So when something gets proposed like, well, there'll be a hundred mile buffer. Buffers don't matter when there's an oil spill. No, there's no boundary. There's, there's no physical boundary. There's a, a pretend boundary, but there's no physical boundary. No, I I think it's a, do you think it's a negotiation tactic? Almost like, let's put up as much as possible like last time And then we'll kind of curtail it to what they really, really want. Uh, I can't speak for industry right there. There is definitely, if you look at the comments, there has been consistent industry interest from industry.

22:26 And drilling there, they, they want the oil that's there. Yeah. And so I imagine they were testing the waters politically. You know, there was an interest in seeing if this might be a moment. Uh, and I think the answer is no. Right? Absolutely not. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, one of the things when you, when we look at these proposed, so I'm looking at the stats here, it says. We are looking at lease sales, 34 lease sales in federal waters. Looking at 21 off Alaska, six off, uh, the Pacific, like California, and seven off the Gulf of Mexico. Uh, there might be some in Florida as well as you mentioned.

23:08 What are the biggest, um, environmental or ecological risks that we see associated with these opening, like these open waters? I know we, we kind of mentioned it earlier just in terms there's no boundaries And so if a spill happens, a spill happens, it goes into all these areas, but like especially sensitive areas. You know, like Pacific and Antarctic waters off Alaska. Like what are those environmental risks and ecological risks that we might see during any stage of, of the process from surveying and exploration to drilling? Hmm. That's a very big question. Uh, maybe the major ones like something, and, but it is, but it's the profound question and the starting point is what is this plan?

23:53 This plan is about leasing. So it's about auctioning off our coast, our public coasts for drilling. Right? Right. And so it's not about this year, it's not about gas prices, this is about generations ahead. What do we want the world to be? Mm-hmm. And this country and this world are at a crossroads. Do we wanna lock ourselves into decades more of fossil fuels? Do we want to drill further, deeper, more risky? Every inch, or do we wanna make the transition to clean renewable energy? This is, this plan is sort of at that crux of the decision. Mm-hmm. Because if we decide that we're gonna drill Florida.

24:34 And then think about the long-term economic impacts of an oil spill in Florida in the summer or California in the summer. Is that the future we want? No, absolutely not. So in terms of what are the effects? So the So, so the reason I raise the, like what the leasing is about is because there's stages, then they have to put out leases. Someone has to buy the leases. The world is flooded with oil right now. Mm-hmm. At one point there was a belief that we were gonna run out. They're finding deep water oil in Guyana, north Sea, south China Sea, Nigeria, uh, all around the world. They're finding massive, like deep water, more risky or near shore deposits in places there weren't before.

25:16 So we really have to make a decision that we wanna move on. We have to make a decision to stop expanding offshore drilling and change. So if we continue on the path we're on, uh, there's really, I mean, history is so clear. Everywhere. There's a massive expansion of offshore drilling. There are ca catastrophic oil spills, Yeah. Yeah. That's what's gonna happen. And it's bound to, there's probably, it's bound to happen. And there are small ones by the way, in between. Yeah. So we're, it's one of the most destructive things you could possibly do to the environment. We don't experience it on land. So it's really hard to imagine that cloud of oil coming down, trying to breathe oil.

25:57 There's nowhere to get away. Everything is killed. Um, and that's, uh, and that's, you know, out in the ocean Um, So, but then of course it comes onto shores. It affects whether it's, you know, they're still finding it in the salt marshes of the Gulf from Deepwater Horizon, still washing, I mean, just where the, the legacy And then the chemicals. Mm-hmm. Uh, this is a chance and we hope the Trump administration ultimately will take, you know, all these areas off California, the Alaska areas, Florida. Um, there's a chance for a different path for, uh, the US to lead on energy and lead sustainably.

26:42 Right. And we hope that that's the direction it'll go because, uh, sorry. Yeah. Just to, so when you were saying like every stage of the game, so I want to answer that question. Yeah. When they're serving, they're using seismic blasting and we really have no conception of what that's like on land. It's one of the loudest sounds in the ocean, right? Over and over and over and over again for weeks or months on an end. Um, we don't really even fully understand the impacts on Marine life No. Of doing that kind of testing and it's, uh, and that, so that's, so we were really heartened to see the Atlantic taken out because they were talking about testing and seismic blasting along the Atlantic. So that's not gonna happen. Um, So there's that, there's sort of like, because they're making huge sounds 'cause they want to figure out hundreds, like, like deep, deep under the earth what's there and have it echo back Um, So.

27:32 It, it, you know, it's just so that there's that part of the process. Then there's the part of the process where they might putting the infrastructure in where they're drilling, they're bringing it out, there are oil spills, And then even when it makes it all the way through the whole process, it's putting carbon in the atmosphere. It's fueling the climate crisis, it's fueling the, um, sea level rise. The air pollution, the water pollution, all of that. It's just, it's such a destructive way to get energy and there are better ways out there. I think you're right. You know, there's the, the, the, the chemical aspect of it, the oil actually spilling, And then the dispersions on top of that to get, you know, rid of it, uh, quote unquote.

28:18 But I find. The, like you mentioned, the, the consequences from a climate change perspective, the sea level rise, the um, the, the storm surges, the, the warming of the, of the atmosphere, the warming of the waters, you know, ocean acidification. There's all these things that come along with, with climate change that we will see in future generations, and that this is just adding to the problem that we've already had and. It's, it's like just making this decision to open all these leases up puts us at risk for years to come.

28:59 You know, not just now, but like years to come, even though this might take years to actually go from leasing to drilling. I mean, we don't even know if these leases are gonna be, you know, fully reinstated. This is, this is bad on a longevity perspective. So let me ask you this. Um. Because, because you know, a lot of people within the environmental field these days, over the last year have been really involved in advocacy and, and you know, looking at policy and responding accordingly. And, and, and of course Oceana is one of the leads in, in a lot of these, a lot of these places.

29:40 Um, in a lot of these situations. So from, from this plan, I know you've only had it for maybe what a week, uh, you know, the full plan, uh, I know it was leaked before, but having the actual full plan, what's Oceana's position moving forward on this plan? Like, what does Oceana want its constituents to, to get to know? My audience members get to know, which are probably both. Um, but what do, what does Oceania want us to do? About this plan to, to one, like just stop it off the bat, you know, reduce the amount of leases, if not all, you know, protect that ocean. What do we do? Yeah, so there's, this is, uh, an issue that, that affects people in so many ways.

30:26 So you have different connections to it. Uh, I know that there are le letters by scientists, letters by religious leaders. Religious, uh, letters by, you know, people who represent chambers of commerce or businesses. There's so many different ways that we connect to the ocean and ways. If you think backwards from what a oil spill would mean, all the people ways that you, you know, you can speak up because it would hurt your community, right? Something you care about are the planet. So from our perspective, we just want as many people to speak up as possible. It is a time where a lot of people feel overwhelmed. There's a lot of fear, um, but we certainly on this issue, it is bipartisan and remains bipartisan, and it is an issue where we do think with a strong push from all the right people, all the public, all the leaders, that, that we can get these areas taken out, right?

31:24 We can protect Florida's coast, we can protect California's coast. We can protect a vast area of Alaska, and we'll do what we can in the Western essential Gulf. Right. So we, you know, we're, our hope is that people speak up, bring your expertise, bring your perspectives, and why you care. There's a public comment period that's open now through January 23rd. There's a portal. You just write your comments there or send a letter that way. Mm-hmm. But, um, and if there's just such a strong public push from so many different perspectives, um, and it's such a bad idea to start with, right? We hope we can prevail. So I'm gonna put my, and that's what we're working to do.

32:04 Absolutely. I apologize to interrupt. You're okay. I'm gonna put my negative hat on right now because, you know, we look at who's in charge of the US and, you know, it's a, it's a stubborn administration. They came in knowing what they wanted to do. They're very fossil fuel fueled, no pun intended. But they're very much for in favor of fossil fuels. They wanna bring back coal, they wanna do this, they wanna do that. There are a lot of people who are obviously concerned, but almost apathetic because like, how can we have a change? Now, last time he, uh, Trump was president, his first presidency, there was a Prosple to open up the entire coast and.

32:52 You know, Oceania did, did the same, did a very similar thing. Let's all speak up. Let's get public comment, period out. There were people who were negative at first in terms of like, if I speak up, will my voice be heard? Like, will that happen? What happened? Then that kind of would help people. Today to speak up because like a lot of people aren't hopeful about anything that comes out and it's a big ass to get people to put their name to it. Has it worked in the past and can it work now? You can't just be hopeful when things are easy. This is a hard time, right?

33:32 And there are really re reasons to be worried about the future. So there's no question about that. And when you're talking about climate or fossil fuels, you're talking about really big decisions. Mm-hmm. With a lot of powerful interests. But I think Florida last week with the entire delegation, every Republican, every Democrat, every senator, every member, the governor, and the military base, all speaking up, I think it shows that people still love their coast. Right. People still care about their coast and if we can work together, we can protect our coasts as much as possible around the country.

34:13 And, uh, while those powerful interests are certainly a force to be reckoned with, mm-hmm. The power of communities speaking up and using their strength and their, you know, perspectives. And again, this can be religious leaders, business leaders. Right there, you know, and, and, and because this is by, no one wants an oil spill. It is a, you are able to work across the aisle on this issue, and that gives you a lot of hope that you can succeed. Yeah. Even in a difficult political environment. Yeah. Well, and even last time he was president, people spoke up and those leases didn't go through, did they?

34:54 Ultimately? Yeah. No, they were, they did not finalize the plan. Yeah. And he ended up protecting North Carolina to Florida for 10 years. Um, you know, Florida's back on the table, so. Right, right. It's a, it's, it's not a, uh, the work's not done. Yeah. But it also should give people hope that it can be achieved. Um, And then on this issue, he can, he can move. In fact, though, the Atlantic came out of the first draft of the plan. Right. And that's a big area and that's a big accomplishment for the many, many people in the Atlantic who spoke up at the first stage of this. So how was the Atlantic different than something like the Pacific Coast in terms of, you know, why did the Pacific stay on and the Atlantic didn't?

35:36 What did the, what did, like who spoke up in the Atlantic that really made a difference? Was there a specific, was it a number of people? Was it the types of people, like in terms of where they are within sort of that upper middle class, you know, rich, lower middle class. Is it, is it a, is there a way to be like whatever they did in Atlantic, could it work in the Pacific or elsewhere? It would be wonderful. It would make our jobs easier if we really knew. Yeah. Uh, exactly what worked or didn't. You know, you bring all of it, you try and bring all of it. I think it was important that at the first stage.

36:17 Not only Democrats, but also Republicans spoke up. Mm-hmm. Either publicly or behind the scenes. I think it was important that businesses and all the people who had spoken up before showed up even in a crazy chaotic time, gave comments. Um, you know, we, we list all the comments@stopthedrill.org, you could see like state by state who spoke up. Yeah. And it was really impressive. Um, and, uh, so I think that was all true and it was, and something was powerful enough. To take the Atlantic off the table, or maybe many things. We didn't get a, um, we didn't get an analysis told us. Right. Um, but, but I think it's, it, it's should give people a reason to hope that we can do the same in other areas.

37:02 Right, right. Can we shift a little bit in terms of Sure. We know the global global trends are moving more towards renewable energy. Uh, so is there. Is there, is there evidence that's that, like the expanded offshore drilling is actually necessary or wise for, for US energy over the next 10 or 20 years? Like wouldn't it be I knew, I know there was, there were a number of offshore renewable energy plans that were happening, especially in the Atlantic. Those got stalled or stopped altogether when Trump came in. I don't know if they've actually been stopped, but that was sort of the word that that was happening.

37:44 Is it, is it wise? Is it like based on the global trend, is it wise for, for the US to stop pushing renewable energies and going back to fossil fuels? Absolutely not. No. The, we're not at a time where there's some big mystery about how we solve this problem, right? We definitely need to figure out how to do renewables better. Right. You have to be, you know, whether it's offshore wind or solar and to, you know, how to do it more sustainably, but we already know the solution and we already know the cost of not doing it. So I think it's the moral imperative of our time to make that switch and to, to do, you know, in this case, when we're talking about offshore leasing, like to make the right choice for future generations to say we're committed, that we're not gonna just drill and spill your coastlines, right.

38:35 Um, but we're gonna swiftly move to the energy that's gonna dominate the future. Are, are, do you know if people speak up more for renewable energy off their coastlines rather than, than, uh, fossil fuel energy? I don't, I, I would have to look at polling that I, that I haven't and, and this of course changes. That's fine. Yeah, of course. But I think as a general rule, renewables are popular. Yeah. And as a general rule, people care about their coastline, so if there's a sense that something might be destructive, they're gonna be wary about it and that's okay. Yeah. That's kind of where we are at the moment. Gotcha, gotcha. In this plan, do they require partnerships from states that are involved in this plan, like California, Florida, the Gulf States?

39:20 Is it, is it, 'cause I know a lot of the times. W when we, we were looking at Canada, we just, they just approved an expansion of a, of a pipeline. And the provinces are kind of battling right now in terms of what happens, but there's a federal thing And then there's a memorandum of understanding and we're trying to figure out like the legalities of all of it and whether if one province doesn't want it, that they want to go through, then it'll be difficult to get to get the buy-in, including indigenous, uh. You know, feedback and, and where they want it as well. Is there a, a role that in, in the legislation that states play within, within this sort of offshore plan, and is it possible for them to stall or stop any Prosple of any leases off their coastline?

40:09 Uh, the, the way this plays out in the ocean is that the near shore waters usually out to three miles. It's a little different off Florida. Um, uh, usually up to about three miles is state waters, uh, state of Florida and state of California, and many other states have prohibited offshore drilling from happening within their state waters. Gotcha. And then some states, and California is one of them. Pass the law to prevent the use of infrastructure to expand drilling in federal waters from coming onto their shores. So they really attempted to do exactly what you're describing, to be able to block the, the, any expansion of offshore drilling off California and that remains in place. Um mm-hmm.

40:50 So states simply do have a say on what's brought into their shores, uh, and should, uh, right. 'cause it has great effect. And an oil spill off their coast, uh, is very much a state issue. For sure, for sure. And you mentioned earlier that, you know, oil's in pl, like there's plenty of oil to go around these days, right? Like there's, in terms of availability, um, they've kind of opened up the tap, not just the US but worldwide. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's cheaper now. It, does it make sense from a price point to like, you know, go drilling in, in a place like Alaska, which is very difficult to drill and very difficult to work.

41:31 Will that be prohibitive to some companies in terms of like, they may not lease because I remember the Northern Slope was a big contested issue for decades in including like, you know, organizations. I believe you guys partnered up with a lot of organizations to take the government to, uh, to court because they didn't follow the environmental, uh, assessment plans. Like this is way back when. Um, And then eventually Michelle just kind of like, we're leaving 'cause it's not worth, you know, the money that we're spending to drill if we, you know, 'cause, because of the way that that oil was going down. Has that sentiment changed for companies or is it like, 'cause like they could open up leases, but if nobody buys them because it's too difficult or too expensive to, to drill, then it, it, it doesn't make sense.

42:11 Does that, is that still at play right now? The, the world economy is in a massive moment of change. Yeah. So I wouldn't have, you know, I don't think it's appropriate to try and guess what will happen. Right. I think we're about to see a massive, uh, test. Of what the industry's interest is, and that will be what Congress mandated, which is the big expansion of drilling and cook inland in Alaska and in the Western and Central Gulf of Mexico. These vast multimillion dollar, multimillion acre lease sales. We'll see, you know, if, if the bidding happens and if they sell, and that'll be a sense of where the economy is at the moment.

42:52 But again, these lease sales are a generational decision. Someone might buy them even if the world's flooded with oil and prices. You know, or, or vice versa. If it's low, you know, there is an oil and the price is high, people might buy it and hold onto it. And in fact, approximately 80% of the already leased areas are not being used. Right? Because that's a lot of what's happening. And so we're, you know, we're concerned about the long-term decision and whether oil prices were high or low, whether the cost of offshore drilling is so high. It'll ne it never makes sense. It will never make sense. No, yeah, for sure. For sure.

43:32 Especially in in those areas, if you count for the people's health over time and this cost of oil spills. Yeah, absolutely. And especially with a changing Arctic too. Like you just never know what's gonna happen up there. Let's, let's start talking about what people could do. 'cause, because, you know, oceania's very good at inspiring people to act and to, you know, share their opinions and their, their, their wants, you know, for, for a better environment, uh, you know, and within their country, the public, uh, period for comment is open as, as we know right now. Um, would you know first, do you know when that closes? January 23rd.

44:12 January 23rd. 2026. Okay, so it's still relevant. We're gonna put this up as soon as possible so that Okay. People can get to, get, people can get to know and, and, and have some time. So when we talk about the, you know, I always talk about we should, you know, talk to our, our state and federal representative and local representative all the time. We should have a relationship with them, especially with your wants and needs, whether it's environment or anything else that they are there to serve, like, to help, you know. Vest your interest in the whole product and they need to listen to you. When we talk about having a public comment period open, what do people say that will make it effective?

44:53 You know, 'cause they can say, I don't want this. And put that in digital form and, you know, sign their name to it if they want, or be anonymous. What is in, in, in your experience at Oceania's experience is the, the, the sort of the best bang for their buck in terms of what they can say. That will help them turn, like, change their minds, help the government change their minds. So there's the simple answer, which is we have an action alert. It's, it's drop the drill.org. It's some, it sort of pre-populates a comment that you can then edit, right? But in this case, as in all cases, you don't fully know the, how the decision will be made.

45:34 You can predict, 'cause you can take a look at who's in the administration, that they're gonna care about economics, they're gonna care. That doesn't mean you should just comment on things they care about. Like this is a record of what the public thinks. Yeah. And it should be reflective of the vast significant interest. But in this case, almost everything like tourism. Do you care about that your business? Most 40. You know, most people, so many people, millions of people live near the coast. Mm-hmm. This is your backyard. This is your ocean. Yeah. Um, the Marine life, the future that you want for the world. Sea level rise. I mean, there's just so many connections. So this is a chance to speak about everything you care about. And what is important is enough people speak up.

46:15 We'll be sure to cover all the bases, right? We've got the elected leaders stepping up. Yeah, they're covering their, and that's, and not just the Congress, but you know, their local leaders, legislators from the state, mayors, chambers of Commerce, all of them are speaking up right now. So you'll be joining a chorus and when you prevail, and I think there's a good chance we're gonna be able to get a lot of these areas, we're moved. We need momentum like that right now in, in the environmental movement. We need, and for oceans, we need to show that you can. Make a difference even in hard times that the common interest in a a healthy coast is something we can still defend. Yeah, absolutely.

46:55 I also think too, like if you share a story about why you love. That, that particular coastline, wherever you are, like, I think that would help too, right? Because stories have power behind them and if you give like an emotional story of why you like a Pacific area and why you don't want it to be changed, uh, why you don't want it to be moved. Uh, if you're a deep sea fisher, you're not gonna want fish where there's oil, you know, platforms or there's oil and gas, you know, or, or potential spill or chemicals that come out. Um. You know, you just don't want to have that compared to just nothing and just open ocean, you know, you get to see a lot more and, and, and enjoy it a lot more instead of just seeing these, these platforms that are out there for years and years on, on end.

47:39 Not even, and not, that's not even, we're not even talking about, you know, spills at this point, we're talking about more of just like the visual aspect of, and having that peaceful aspect that a lot of fishers and hunters enjoy. In, in national parks and, and Marine sanctuaries and Yeah, totally. And so forth. Yeah. So I think stories would be, would be a great thing, uh, to, to have going on. Okay. So like, are we looking at, so from, from a, so if we, if people comment, you know, their stories, their, you know, facts. Go on. Uh, sorry, what was the website again? Just so people could know, oh, stop the drill. Stop the drill.org org. Okay. So we'll, we'll, we'll stop the, the drill.org.

48:21 Go there, grab some facts. If you need some and you wanna put 'em in, you know, you can, you can put that in, you can make it, you know, the way you want it. So it's not just the same message over and over again. But I think that's, that's one way of, of looking at it. What are we realistically looking at for objectives? Objectives. Now we're looking, are we looking at like full. Prevention of, of leases is a realistic goal. Is that, do you think that's a realistic goal to ask? Well, I wanna just, uh, you is, I, I feel like there's an important follow up. Please do. Yeah. To the question you just asked, which is Yes, write a letter, share personal experience, but what I'm, what we're a part of, you know, and we have all around the country field staff, we have people that we work with, we have partners, close partners, um.

49:08 People have so much power and influence when they really care. Like there's so many people with connections to the administration and the president in Florida. Mm-hmm. There's so many people who are connected in ways they might not even expect. Like if you're a military community in California and you depend on the ability to do trusting and training out in that ocean. Yeah. Or you part of shipping in California and some of the biggest ports in the world, and the thought of an oil spill off the port of LA and what that would mean for you. So like going and talking to your port. Or talking to your local member and, um, all of that sort of bottom up, um, and personal, like what, how could you influence this decision? The creativity that we're observing all around the country is awesome.

49:52 And that's a part of the solution too. I never even thought about that. That's such a good point. To like go to all the places where, you know, it's actually, it's really important to make sure there's clean Seas and there's nothing, uh, uh, you know, obstructing, you know, tourism and businesses at ports and, And so forth. Um, and business leaders that are, that are along, that have influence that, that have connections to senators, congress, people, the president, you know, wherever they can get it. Yeah. This is like. No holds Barr, I guess right now. Right. We need to pull out everything and, and, and get everybody talking. And for this, I agree. And I also think that there's a perspective of um, when you get past what you were describing earlier where people feel defeated or hopeless or, or scared.

50:36 Mm-hmm. Like a light opens up actually you have a lot of power. Yeah. There's a lot you can do even in, even in this administration, there's plenty of ways to still make a difference and have influence and. Uh, there are plenty of people like the Florida Republicans who very much care about their shore, so there's a lot to tap into and a lot we can do. Perfect. Okay. That's wonderful. Um, I guess like, you know, from Oceania's perspective, what message do you hope policy, policy makers and, and the public receive from Oceania's standpoint and like about the kind of stewardship that's needed today Of the oceans? Yeah, the.

51:17 In, in some ways it's, uh, oil spills are a nightmare. It's time to move on. They're destructive. Yeah. Terrible. They're one of the worst things we can do to the planet. And we need to stop the expansion of offshore drilling for sure. That's one message. Um, another message is, uh, that. That we have a chance to choose a better future. It's actually a moment where if we can prevail and help get these areas out of this plan. You were asking what's the hope? Well, let's try and see what's possible. Yeah. But, uh, we should be able to take vast areas out. All of that means that we can, we have momentum and power towards other forms of clean energy and we kind of have shaped the future in a pretty fundamental way.

51:58 So that's another, uh, really key message. Um. And so, yeah, and, and, and I think the, the one that we keep trying and you've, I, I, I mean, I've said it a lot, but it because is that this is bipartisan, like truly bipartisan. You can work even at this time, successfully together because you share an interest. Yeah. And it may be from very different perspectives. It might be because of military. And business reasons and not for wildlife or maybe all of the above, but we share that. And regardless of what you think about anything else in environment, no one wants an oil spill.

52:41 So let's start there and build from there. And that is the perspective that we're trying to bring. Perfect. Perfect. Any last? Things you wanted to say before, before we end this interview? This has been a fantastic interview, thanks to really motivate and, and you just said some really great things to, to, in terms of, of how do you wanna motivate, what do you want people to know as we kind of, you know, leave here, uh, and, and, uh, you know, wanting them to comment, obviously, you know, talking to their business leaders, talking to ports and, and things like that. But what would you like them to know about this? They can make a difference. That they can make a difference and we can make a difference.

53:22 And this may not, you know, there's, it may not feel like it, but this is a transformative moment on climate and energy. This is a moment where actually we can make a huge change for some of the biggest and most important coasts in the United States, and to have a vision for America and for our communities and our coast that is thriving. Yeah, but having thriving coasts, which is worth so much and will be worth so much more in the future, uh, depends on not having oil spills, right. Depends on holding the line today and not allowing a short term interest, uh, to sort of, to take that risk with some of the places we care about most and that are the worth the most in so many different ways.

54:06 Yeah. So I, you know, the, this is, we hope people will, will contribute in whatever way they can. Comment letters would be great. Yeah. Um, but anything, uh, right now could make a difference. And the, the way this process works, and this is where I'll end, is that if they take areas out, they don't come back. Mm-hmm. So this is the, you know, that this is the draft plan. We would love to see lots of this out of the final. Uh, it was a first draft. Everyone makes mistakes in the first draft. Let's fix it. Right? Yeah. And, uh, and get it to be a plan that is as small as possible for offshore drilling. Yeah. And do everything we can, uh, to try and advance, um, clean energy and to work together to protect coasts from all the various threats that are underway right now.

54:51 Gotcha. Now, uh, for people who are outside the us, non non-American citizens, and is it, uh. Worthwhile to comment as well. Are they able to comment and put their stories in as well? I think they can provide comments. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, I think so. Um, I feel like it would be necessary. A lot of people travel to the us you know, especially California, you know, Alaska, you know, Florida, you know, all the, uh, gulf coasts that travel to be on the beaches, you know, tourism money, you know, and I feel as though that would help in terms of like making sure that tourists are well taken care of as well, and making sure that people keep coming down, um, without, without oil on the, on the shores.

55:33 That's a really great point and I think it, it's worth absolutely worth. You know, one of the things that happens is we make these decisions, but the voices of people in other countries who really matter and care and the voices of future generations aren't there. And that's a responsibility we have. Yeah. Uh, you know, for, but also, yeah, I think the should comment. Perfect. Perfect. Well, Joseph, this has been fantastic. I feel same invigorated. I feel inspired. I hope everybody else feels inspired as well. I wanna thank you so much for the work that Thank you you do, and the work that Oceania does, and also coming on the podcast and just sharing, uh, your knowledge. Thank you, and/or, and what we can do. I think it's really important. Yeah. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

56:13 Thank you, Joseph, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. It was great to have you on so many great tidbits of information to inspire us to act. We can use the public comment period and make comments. You can go to stop the drill.org. I'll put that link in the show notes. Go there and use the information from there to add your public comment if you want. Curtail to your story, what you want to see out of this plan. If you want stop, you know, I highly recommend that you put a pen to paper or, you know, use your keyboard to put that ink and, and that digital ink into the notes and make sure they know how you feel to ensure that we don't have this plan go forward. This is gonna be really bad for the future. Last time the Trump administration ended up protecting a great part of the coastline from the Carolinas all the way down to Florida.

56:59 Hopefully that can happen. Again, this is gonna be a very important aspect and like as Joseph says, this is the US at a crossroads, which are we gonna decide? Are we gonna go oil and gas? Are we gonna go renewals? This is where we decide. And it's up to you to have that public comment. If you do not comment, then you can't complain. What happens? F this is the time for you to speak up for the blue. Speak up for the ocean. This is how you protect the ocean. This is what we're gonna be doing. There's a lot of campaigns going on. This is one of them. Ocean is great. They have a lot of connections and this is great to be a part of. But also use your connections, use your family's connections, whatever you can do to make sure that we have people in high places who are understanding that this is not a good plan to move forward in this day and age. With that said, check out the links below and if you have a comment, you want to leave a comment or a question.

57:43 If you have a question, do that in the comments below. If you're watching this on YouTube, if you are listening to this on your favorite podcast app, whether it be Apple Music, apple Podcasts, Spotify, whatever that might be, if you're listening to this on the website, speak up for blue.com. You can connect with me in a multitude of different ways. There's gonna be links. Down below in the show notes so you can connect with me. There's ways you can actually leave voicemails with me or you can leave comments with me if you have any comments if you're listening to this, the audio. So I'm gonna put that link below. But essentially it's gonna be speak up for blue.com/comment that you can do that as well. I'd love to hear from you. And of course, if you wanna follow us on a specific podcast app, you haven't done that before. Speak up for blue.com/follow and of course we'd love a rating and review on your favorite podcast app.

58:28 But until next time, I wanna thank you so much. Not only Joseph for joining us, but you for joining us on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I am your host, and/or Lewin from the True North Strong and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.