Ocean Book You Need to Read: Amanda Leland’s Vision for a Sea Change

0:00 On today's episode, we're gonna be discussing this book, it's called Sea Change, unlikely Allies, and a Success Story of Oceanic Proportions. It's all about catch fisheries. If you wanna know more of what Catch fishery is and what it actually will do to help preserve fisheries, help protect the ocean, you're gonna wanna watch this episode. So that's what we're gonna be talking about in today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean. By taking action today, we're gonna be talking about this book, sea Change. It's great. I'm gonna show it one more time here.

0:40 It was sent to me. I get sent a lot of books, you know, and I get emails from a lot of people. I'm very privileged to have that and to be able to get free books and to be able to read them. When I started to read this book, this is not what I expected. I expected something on conservation, so it'd be more like, you know, this is what we need to do to protect the ocean. This is the frameworks and everything that we have to do. This is not this book. This book is a story. This book is a story about a fisher named Buddy where we meet him at a very young age where he's fishing with his father, and I don't wanna give any kind of spoilers, but he grows up. And he becomes a fisher. But he, there's a lot of stuff that goes on between that, which I highly recommend that you read this book to find out. But you see his journey as not only becoming a man and an adult, but becoming a fisher, and the evolution of becoming a fisher to eventually becoming an advocate to protect the ocean and protect fisheries, and becoming like a conservation hero.

1:31 This is something that is important to know, not only for me as a scientist and as a conservationist, but also somebody. If you're listening in this audience, and you may not be involved in this field. I know I have a lot of people who are, but I have a lot of people in this audience who aren't. We always hear bad things about Fishers. We always like, why are we hearing that? This is a book that gives you the perspective of Fisher. Sometimes you may not like what the person has to say, but other times you might just be like, yeah, you know what? This is actually pretty cool. This is something I want to know about and I wanna know more fishers like this. And there are a lot of fishers that are just like that. And so it's really important that we get to meet them, we get to hear their story. And this is one of those stories. This is a true story and it's something that I feel is very important and Amanda is on the podcast to discuss it. She was one of the co-authors, James Workman was her other author, who's the journalist and who wrote most of the book, but Amanda provided a lot of the information and worked it with him.

2:20 She's the executive director of the Environmental Defense Fund, a huge organization that does a lot of work. And it was a pleasure to be able to speak to her and get her perspective on this. Not only did we talk about the book, but for the most part we talked about how she became an executive director. 'cause I was curious, but also talking about what Environmental defense does and what type of programs they have. But very much focusing on the Ocean Fisheries program and how they partner with. Unlikely heroes, you know, unlikely people that you don't see being partnered with and having those discussions early on with. And I think that's really important and we're starting to see that. And then if you've been listening to the podcast anytime recently, there's been a focus on building trust, building relationships with local communities, with fishers, with stakeholders, and bringing in conservation right at the beginning so that everybody's perspective is being heard.

3:04 That's really important when we have that type of participation, when we talk about conservation in a local area, or even in a larger region, or even a national, like in a country or even internationally. So it's very important to have these conversations and to know their perspective. So without further ado, here is the executive director of the Environmental Defense Fund, Amanda Leland, discussing with us this book See Change. Unlikely heroes and a success story of oceanic proportions. This is something that everybody needs to read. In my opinion. It's on sale as of this recording, and you can pick it up very quickly. I think you can even pre-order it if it's not on sale, if you're catching this at a different time, but something to really listen to. So here's Amanda, enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after.

3:45 Hey Amanda, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about the book, sea Change and Catch Shares? I am more than ready. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me, Andrew. Oh, I am so excited. Now I get emails quite a bit to, for people to come on the show and it was so great to see someone from EDF, from Environmental Defense Fund to say, Hey, you know what? We have somebody for you. Uh, she just co-wrote a book. It's about sea change. We'd love to send it to you so you could read it. And I'm like, I'm in. I do get a lot, you know, I do get some books to be, you know, to that come to me and I, and I, I peruse them and stuff, but I have to admit, Amanda, when I started reading this, I didn't know what to expect.

4:25 I started reading this and I'm like, this is really fun. I'm into this, this is a bit like a novel in a way, but it's true. Like this is like, this is like a, a true story. And it was, it was, it was very cool. I haven't finished the book, just full disclosure, I haven't finished the book yet, but I am excited to talk not only about the book, but the contents of the book. I don't want to give away anything, but I, I want, and I don't want spl 'cause I want people to read the book, but what I want to do is dive into catch shares and why they're such an important tool and why you want to write about them. You and James want to write about them. James, James Workman. And so, um, we're gonna get into all that, but before we do, I want the audience to get to know who you are.

5:05 Um, so, uh, Amanda, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do. Thank you. Yeah, I'm, well again, it's exciting to be here. Um, so my name is Amanda Leland and I'm executive director of Environmental Defense Fund, which means that I run the organization. Um, and EDF is a longstanding, um, international. Environmental organization. We have offices around the world, um, and we really think about and work towards finding the ways that work for people in the planet. So mm-hmm. We, we, we have a lot of unlikely partnerships. One of the things we're gonna talk about that comes through in the Sea Change book, it's finding common ground and working towards solutions together, even with people who you think you might have less, um, in common with.

5:57 And, and really, because fundamentally we actually generally share the same needs and the same goals. And we might not start there, but we can find those paths and see changes about finding one of those paths for ensuring that we have a healthy and productive ocean. Awesome. Now, being an executive director of an organization like Environmental Defense Fund, that's a big deal. Like that is like when I got, when somebody said like, Hey, you know, the executive director of Environmental Defense Fund wants to come on the podcast? I was like, whoa. I told my wife, I was like, this is, this is big news. Like this is, this is awesome. Like it's always great to talk to people from your staff 'cause they're always, they're always great and they're always so passionate and everything like that. But an executive director, I'm like, this is a big deal.

6:40 When you started out in this line of work, like when you started your education path and, and things like that, did you expect this is where you were gonna end up as an executive director? Is that, was that the plan you wanted to be in charge of, of an organization? I've never really, this is the bad truth about me. I've never really been a person who's tried for a certain title or a certain job. I'm driven a hundred percent by getting things done and making the world a better place, uh, to the extent that I can. Mm-hmm. I, I have been a lifelong fan. I actually became an EDF member when I was 13 and the seventh grade. Wow.

7:21 Okay. Yeah. So I have a long, I have a long story with EDF that predates any jobs whatsoever. Yeah. Um, and I never really thought, you know, in high school, college that this would be the kind of work I would do. I was right. Tracked into science. I was, I was a marine scientist. That's sort of the, the beginnings mm-hmm. Of a career as working in, in, um, marine advocacy and conservation. Um, but yeah, it's been a long journey and again, not really motivated by the title. I'm happy to have it. It's a real honor. Of course. Yeah. Um, I, I'm, what I love about EDF, they're, you know, is we have this incredible platform to get to solve the biggest problems facing people in the planet, and mm-hmm.

8:11 We have an incredibly smart and talented staff. We have really strong and, um, generous supporters who've been with us on some really tough journeys. And they, they stay with us and we have these incredible partnerships. And again, working with fishermen, you know, when we started that work 15, 20 years ago, it was nobody, like, it was, it was not the way conservation was done. Mm-hmm. Uh, and there's stories like that in EDFS work over and over again of how we find these unlikely partnerships. Becoming allies and changing the world. Yeah.

8:52 I, you know, I'm going back to you being 13, being part of, you know, joining EDF. What does that look like as a 13-year-old joining an organization like that? Like, what was, what was your role? Was it like a volunteer role? Was it just you got newsletters? What, what does that look like? Because, you know, there's a lot of people, my, my kids are teenagers. They're 16 and turning 18, you know, and I tell them like, you know, how do you feel like connected to the planet, connected to, um, you know, the ocean or just connected to wildlife? And, and you know, I've always thought like, there, there are programs out there that were, you know, uh, kids can, can join. But as a 13-year-old, what does that look like?

9:33 And, and, and why EDF when you joined? So, um, I am, I'm really big into evidence and progress and experience. Um, and in the seventh grade we do, I did a science fair project. Mm-hmm. I became very, um, excited about the potential to, for recycling. Now, this was a long time ago. I might be older than you think. This was a long time ago. This is when, like in the US the nightly news was like the garbage, uh, ships that nobody could figure out where they would go. And, and there was this plucky EDF scientist, um, who was always on the news talking about the fact that we needed to do more recycling to deal with all this trash and, um.

10:22 And I just thought he was the best. Like he was so inspiring to me. It was a great idea at the time. Right? He was. So, I, I mean, that tells you what kind of person I am. I got really excited about one of our, our, our nerdy scientists who was standing on a big pile of trash. Um, and that's what got me, that's what got me going. So I actually did my research of all the organizations who were focused on recycling. 'cause I got so into it. EDF was doing the most by far at the time. And I sent my $30 in to become a member. Yeah. And I got, um, all the cool swag or the, now it's the merch. Um, yes. And, and I just, I wore it around with pride and I showed off to everybody that I was like a member of this incredibly impactful organization.

11:11 And, and that stuck with me for years. You know, it, I, um, it sort of waxed and waned a little depending on what my interests were. But yeah, it was with me the whole time. And it turns out that that really plucky scientist had an office two doors down from mine when I started at EDF 21 years ago. And he retired a couple years ago. And I was able to be at his retirement party. Yeah. Did did you tell him like he, he's the reason why you Oh yes. He knows. Yeah, he definitely knows. Um, that's awesome. Now, like, as a 13-year-old, you know, um, there are a lot of 13 year olds who are not necessarily focused on this.

11:53 Like, were your friends involved as well? Like, were you able to rope in your friends or they're just kind of looking at you like, oh, there goes Amanda in her recycling? Uh, yeah, definitely no friends. I think, um, I don't know. I was maybe a little out of step with what was going on around me. I, I don't know. Um, but it was, it was, um, it over time, you know, I definitely attracted people into thinking about and, um, becoming part of the environmental movement. So while I wasn't so good at that in the seventh grade, right, it de it definitely became part of who I am and, and how people think about me.

12:33 And who I asso associate myself with. Mm-hmm. Not just other environmentalists, but people who fundamentally care about, um, ensuring that their kids have more opportunities and a cleaner, healthier planet to live on. Okay. Than, than we do today. That kind of like legacy and generational aspect is really important to me. And it was the generational aspect, um, that got me really excited about the oceans. It was my grandfather who taught me how to fish and to captain a boat when I was seven. Wow. Um, like my passion for the oceans started really early. I was out there fishing blue fish with him Yeah. When nobody else was fishing blue fish, um, right at the time.

13:14 So anyway, I guess those early beginnings are important and that has shaped my life and my career and I think it. I think it matters to other people too. Gotcha, gotcha. Now, working at EDF, I assume it's one of the, like the places you've worked the longest, um Yes. Outta your career, um, as you started to work there and, and you, did you just start to sort of climb the, the, the nonprofit ladder and, and, and what interested you in, in growing in that way? Because, you know, you, you were a marine scientist and Yeah. You said that there's a lot of great marine, like a lot of great scientists in general that work at EDF and, um, you can do a lot of great things in different positions there, but as you get, you know, a lot of scientists don't, like, as they grow into an organization or a government department, you get more administrative, administrative roles and you get a away from doing the actual science.

14:05 Um, and each role is important to when you do it, but some people don't like that. What, what attracted you to continue to grow within, within the organization into a position like this? So that story for me starts actually before I joined EDF 'cause I didn't come in as a marine scientist, so my ah, okay. My shift from science into conservation happened before that I was actually in grad school, um, and I was working as a scientist in the Gulf of Maine mm-hmm. Uh, with sea urchin fishermen. And I was confronted in a fishery that was largely collapsed or collapsing mm-hmm.

14:46 In the coast of Maine. And the fishermen would say to me, if I don't take the last urchin, someone else will. And it's a common thing we hear. Right, right. And I, you know, I was in my early twenties and I was like, just the. The ridiculousness and the pain in that kind of a statement. Mm-hmm. Like, nobody should have to eat their seed corn in order to feed their family today. Right. That is a, there's just, there's no way that that's gonna work. And so in the, at the time and, and that period fisheries were collapsing all around the country. And I was sort of in this mind frame of, I don't wanna be the scientist that writes the epitaph for these productive fisheries and the health of the oceans.

15:36 I wanna be on the side of solutions. So that brought me to take a fellowship in Washington, DC where I worked for a member of Congress and I learned more about policy. Mm-hmm. And from there I came to EDF as sort of a marine advocate, ocean advocate with an understanding of both science and policy. Gotcha. So that's how I came into EDF. And then over time, I've had nine different jobs here. That's unreal. So, yeah, so I've, I like, I guess the, the ocean analogy here is hook, line, and sinker. I don't know, like, I kind of feel like I've done, I've done all the things, um, one can do at EDF, um, and in different ways.

16:18 And still every day my job is different. Even 21 years on as executive director ev every day it's different. It, it, it provides a, a cool challenge, you know? 'cause you never know what to expect, just like the ocean. You never know what to, what it's gonna spit at you or what it's gonna, what's gonna reveal for you at that time. Um, that's a, that's a really interesting, you, you mentioned at the beginning, uh, you mentioned at the beginning of this, of this episode that, you know, you've, you've been motivated by like trying to accomplish things. How has that. Evolved over your career? Like you mentioned, you went from science to advocacy and like policy. Now, you know, you're, you're more into a, a leadership role, you know, driving a lot of great scientists and advocates.

17:03 How has that evolved over, over your, your career so far? I am, well, I guess I'm, you know, in the, in the category of not trying, I've never really set out to have a certain job title or to do a certain thing. I am, um, I care a lot about getting things done. I care a lot about making the most of what we have. Um, and, and I'm also a person who learns by doing. And so I think that that has enabled me to take on more and do different parts of this kind of a job in different ways over time without, um.

17:43 Without having the, always the formal training, you know, like, um, I didn't go, I went to school to be a marine scientist. I did not go to school to be a nonprofit executive. Um, and somehow I seem to be doing that. So I people, I just actually talked to a young person yesterday who's in her final year of college looking for advice, you know, career advice, and I said, try everything. Like you never know what's gonna stick and feel right to you. So when you're presented with an opportunity, even if it feels like it's not the logical progression, go ahead and try it. 'cause it may end up being really helpful to you in the end.

18:26 And I think that that's largely how I've progressed and how I've gotten to where I am. And again, I never thought. As a 13-year-old, $30 a year member of EDF that I'd become executive director. Never thought that. Yeah. I often wonder too, like going from those types of positions to an executive director, like how did you gain the skills and, and what skills do you think really prepared you for a role like this? Um, I think, uh, what you need in a role like this is an ability to communicate, uh, in a way that people can understand you.

19:10 So I think communication is often overlooked and potentially one of the most important keys to success. I think being able to distill complexity down into simplicity is part of that. Um, and I think. Reali recognizing that humans are humans and we're all in the sha shared same place. And we are often motivated by similar things and working to find common cause, um, and not try to create more distinctions and more polarity. I think actually finding ways to work together is incredibly important, um, and being true to yourself and to the facts and making, in my view, sort of like the, a lot of people ask about risk taking.

20:07 You know, what is my risk tolerance in this kind of a job? And I have a pretty high tolerance for risk. If I also am focused on what the information that's available is telling me about the situation or the need for where EDF can be the most effective and where there's a need for our kind of engagement. So, so being able to think sort of in the, at the, at the broad scale and then bringing it down to how can we add value and what is our, what is our special offering to the world? Because there's a lot of really great impressive conservation and environmental groups out there. Yeah. EDF, yeah. EDF is one of many. Right.

20:47 And so recognizing what we're good at and where we can make a difference is important and, um, and really our legacy and our offering to the, to the world. Wonderful. Speaking of EDF, now we've, you know, we've, I've probably gone in a little too much into your, your, uh, career, but I was curious though, and it's my show, so I like to talk about this kind of stuff. You get to call the shots. Yeah, I get to call the shots. Um, but I, I, I think what, what's interesting is EDF is, is such a great organization, but for those who are not familiar with the type of work that you do, can you kind of like, summarize and even, you know, maybe ex like, uh, name off a couple of examples of some of the programs that you have working and some of the work that you've done?

21:32 Yeah, so EDF is an organization that sort of takes the big swings at the toughest environmental problems. We bring a pretty, um, broad toolkit to solving those problems. So we have, um, legal capacity, we have scientific capacity, economic capacity. We work really closely with business and communities. So kind of like up and down the, the whole chain. All the way to the top, the top, you know, businesses in the world to, um, very discreet communities where there's solutions to be advanced and you, and, and demonstrated that serve as a beacon for others.

22:12 We do focus on models that are replicable. Um, we like to engage where we think we can drive impact at scale. So that means like demonstrating a solution can work. And then trying to bring it to the whole sector. And that's important. So some of those, and that goes back to that sort of that premise that I said at the front of like, finding the ways that work. We are not, we are not dogmatic in the solution. We are looking for what's gonna work and make the biggest difference in a way, and a way that's gonna work for people in their wallets. Like the, the fundamental affordability proposition of environmental solutions is in, is important in this context. Um, so some of the big areas where we focus, where you might see us, you know, a little bit more prominently in the public space, um, in particular, is around reducing methane emissions.

23:04 Mm-hmm. So methane, a lot of people might not know. Methane is a, uh, is a really, um, it's a, it's a greenhouse gas, so it's a climate pollutant that is driving much of the warming we're experiencing right now. It has a relatively short life in the atmosphere, but it's very, very powerful. Mm-hmm. And so reducing those emissions is really the best way to pull the emergency brake on the climate change that we're experiencing today. And a much of those emissions come from the oil and gas sector. And so we work to reduce point source emissions. So like leaking infrastructure could be a pipeline, it could be, um, a gas line, it could be an, uh, an oil and gas development field.

23:54 Um, the reducing those emissions right now is what can help us right now in addressing climate change. So we have for many years, been working to solve that problem, um, with making some progress. Um, yeah. For sure, for some, uh, some progress. Another area where we're very focused, um, is protecting, um, tropical forests. So the second area we, the world can make immediate gains on climate change right now is, um, ensuring the protection of tropical forests in reducing forest burning, either through trying to clear land to do something else or for gold mining, which is an increasingly big part of the equation or wildfire.

24:44 So if you're, I, we are in, we are up in Canada and we are in trouble. Yes. Yeah, you are like Canada. The, the, the fire seasons in Canada are just off the charts. I was just the charts in Maine for the last two weeks and. There was no clear air there. Yeah. Um, and that is unheard of for Maine, which typically has, is outside of those, you know, that windy pattern. Yeah. Um, and people over all over. Well, just, just to add to like the, the severity of it. I live, uh, just outside of Toronto, where typically we get the smoke, but we don't get the, the, the fire. Um, but we're under fire bans, you know, even in our backyards.

25:25 Yeah. They've just announced it this week because it's so, we haven't, we've barely had rain. I think the first rainfall we had was last night. I don't even know how long it was. I was asleep, but it wasn't long enough. I'll tell you. You know, like we just haven't had any rain. So it's a very, it's a very scary situation. So definitely understand where that, that problem is coming from and how hard it is to tackle it is, it is, um, emerging as mm-hmm. Like the biggest, um, one of the biggest challenges to solve at this point because it, it affects. All of us. It affects nature. Um, it upends lives in a minute, and it is also driving vast emissions that nobody really has been thinking about yet.

26:11 Right. Like the potential for wildfire to swamp some of the gains we're making on addressing climate change is high. So anyway, so forest protection and, and forest management mm-hmm. Are critically important and an area where EDF is also focused. And then of course there's our work on fisheries and oceans, which I led for many years. And now, um, work with others who are handle, who are ably leading that work at EDF with our partners. That's amazing. I mean, it's, it's, it, those are big programs, big issues to tackle. Um, you know, and, and you need some very intelligent, some very motivated and passionate people to be able to do that.

26:55 And definitely there's no shortage of that. Uh, at, at EDF, um, let's focus in, obviously there's a lot we can focus in on, but let's focus in obviously on the, on the fisheries and oceans side of, of it. Um, you know, fisheries is a huge problem around the world. Overfishing is a huge problem. There's a lot of, of different areas even within that. That we can, that we can go into. Um, but you know, a lot, a lot of the times we really focus in on the amount that's being taken outta the ocean, which is obviously is, is overfishing. Uh, but we look at it from a conservation perspective. How do we protect the stock? How do we protect the species? How do we make sure that it's gonna be around so that people can fish for years and years and years? But really when we talk about fisheries and, and I talk to a lot of people who are not necessarily, um, familiar with, you know, the ocean issues and, and, and fisheries in particular.

27:44 They just want to conserve, they want to protect. And so when, in, in this type of scenario, often vilified are the fishing communities, right? And, and the, and the fishermen and fisher women who are out there, and the fishing people who are out there. You know, day in and day out in dangerous areas, uh, in dangerous conditions, um, you know, trying to catch stuff. And many of them are, are trying to just catch, to feed their families to make sure their communities are fine. And when a, a stock collapse, you know, and I use on my podcast a lot with the cod fishery collapse here in Canada and in the northeast, in the northwest Atlantic, uh, back in the 1990s, which still hasn't technically recovered.

28:26 It was devastating for those communities that were dependent on those cod stocks. Um, trying to prevent the overfishing, trying to ensure that fisheries are conserved, but also trying to protect the, um, the, the, the wellbeing and, and the sustainability of fishing communities to be able to fish forever, um, is a complex issue. And, and you know, you mentioned earlier that you know, you, you often partner with. Fishers and fishing communities and so forth, like the quote unquote unlikely allies, you know, in, in this type of game. Um, let's just talk about like, why do you, why do you think they're vilified and why does Environmental Defense Fund, you know, use this approach to get, be, to get the results that they do?

29:18 Well, I mean, I think it's hard to say why they're vilified. I think, I think fundamentally that happens when regulations are established that, um, that basically put fishermen into a box and they have very few choices for themselves. And, and by that I mean a regulation that says. Um, the fishery can only catch so much this year, which means that, that every fisherman is racing and to go out to catch as much as they can, as fast as they can, because when that limit is reached, they shut the fishery down.

29:59 And that's how fisheries in the US and Canada were managed for decades, um, and other parts of the world too. Right. It's this like, it's, it creates this race and then the fishermen are in order to be able to do their job and bring home money for their family and feed their families, they're basically pushed to this ultra competitive mindset mm-hmm. Where it's like, I just have to get as much as I can, as fast as I can. And, and then you have organizations in my sphere, the environmental organizations saying like, but the, but it's sticking to the science is the most important thing.

30:39 I don't think. And so I think it just creates this false dynamic that you have to be fighting between these two things when fundamentally the fishermen and the fishing communities don't wanna be in the situation that I talked about with those urchin fishermen of if I don't take the last one somebody else will. Like, nobody actually wants to be there. Right. And there are other ways to do this so you don't, so that they're not there. And so our, my focus and our focus has been on trying to find those other ways rather than trying to put the blame on the fishermen. Mm-hmm. And I think the other thing about this is, um, you know, around the world there are, there are 3 billion people, and I, we, I think we forget this.

31:24 Yeah. In the, in the, in North America, we forget this point a lot. Yeah. There are 3 billion people who rely on seafood as their primary source of protein, and they're typically the most vulnerable people on the planet. They don't have a lot of other options. There's not like an easy pasture for them to put a cow out into to have an alternative. Um, and, and this is where they get their nutrition. And so the idea that people are just gonna not fish also undermines the, in my view, the reality of like, people need to eat then kids need nutrition for their brains to grow. And, and that's gonna happen whether you tell them it's protected or it's not protected.

32:11 And so the path forward for I think is about management that rewards conservation for fishermen where they financially and community wise benefit by, uh, conservation. And then you get a better marriage between areas that are fished and areas that aren't fished because the fishermen are, fishermen are more likely to defend those areas that aren't fish. If they know that they're gonna be able to catch a certain amount or whatever mm-hmm. Have that direct access and that feedback loop over time. That may have been a long-winded answer to your question. It was a complex question, so I I it needed a long-winded answer. I loved it. Uh, I, I completely agree with you.

32:52 Uh, and it's, it's something that, uh, I hear, you know, all the time, you know, I've, I've been on Buzz and marine scientists myself, I've been on boats with, you know, local fishermen who are just, you know, they know the lay of the water and the land. They, they've been there for, you know, they have generational knowledge on how this fishery has behaved and, and the trends of the, more than scientists a lot of the times. And so it's imperative that we continue to work together, not only as scientists, but as advocates, as conservationists, and as a team, you know, to be able to, like, how do we get through this together? And I, I completely agree that I feel like. People in North America often forget. You hear a lot of people like, well, we just have to stop eating, eating seafood.

33:33 And it's just that, just can't, that won't, like in reality, that won't happen in, in a lot of places because they, like you mentioned, there's 3 billion people that depend on seafood as their main protein source, and there it's a nutritious source and, um, and it goes to a lot for child development and, and everything like that. And, um, that's an important aspect to, to how we, how we move forward. And so working with them and not vilifying them, I think is a, is a much better way. It's not always easy because some of these issues are complex and, and they do want to be able to feed themselves as well as feed their community and, and, and be able to, um, be able to, to, uh, uh, uh, just live right and be able to be happy as, as a, as a family.

34:16 Um, now. There are parts of, as we get more into this, this catch share and the book, um, you know, there are parts to phishing that are, are very different. I, I think a lot of times it all, everything gets lumped up into phishing. And so, uh, you know, in a lot of, uh, documentaries such as like Ocean by David Attenborough that just came out, they talk a lot about the industrial fishing, you know, where it's like fishing for the maximum processing at sea, you know, for, for a length of time. Uh, just trying to get as much as possible, but often forgotten are the artisanal and local fishers, you know, the indigenous fishers, the, the local Canadian and American and European fishers who are just trying to catch a certain amount of fish so that they can sell it and feed their families, maybe keep some for themselves and move on.

35:11 There's that divide how, like for from a. Perspective for EDF, how do you approach those two types of phishing and, and I'm, am I missing something in between, uh, of those two sort of categories of phishing? Um, like is there, is there certain thing, like is is EDF focused on the, the local fisher or are they focused also on some of the larger, more industrial type of fishing, or is a little bit of both? I'd say it's an all of the above. Um, yeah, I think for sure the, um, what the character, there are some, I think, I think there's some misunderstandings about some aspects of industrialized fishing.

36:01 So if you, if you look into the Alaska slash British Columbia Fisheries, um. In the US and Canada, you'll see pretty industrialized, actually quite industrialized fisheries. Yeah. Um, some of them have very deep connections into native communities. Mm-hmm. Um, so this, I like it. It is very much tied to, to local community and local culture. Um, and they fish cleaner and Hmm. With maximum, uh, fish recovery. So they use every part of the fish. Gotcha. And they don't throw anything over.

36:43 So they're basically utilizing everything. And so if you look at the, the Pollock fishery, which is the, the biggest fishery in the United States. Yep. Um, it's, it's one of the best managed fisheries in the world. Wow. And that isn't what people think about when they think of industrialized fishing. And it is what provides. A lot of the fast food restaurants with fresh fish. Mm-hmm. And I will happily go to McDonald's and get a filet of fish sandwich. Yeah. Because it's, it's well managed. 'cause I know, I know where that, those fish are coming from. And I know that that's a, a well-managed fishery. So that doesn't mean every industrialized fishery in the world or every boat in the world, you know, is operating at the same level.

37:30 And in fact, probably that's not the case. 'cause it sets a very high standard. Um, but it, it isn't quite the distinction of industrialized versus artisanal. And then this, then on the other side, you've got, or, or in the middle is probably the boats in the Gulf of Mexico, which are commercial fishermen working on boats. But they go out overnight, a week at a time. Um, they're not big, you know, uh, big, big and boats like you would see in Pollock where they're, um, they're processing on board. They're commercial fishermen, um, doing their job. And then there, then there's, if you could go even smaller to in, uh, Belize, coastal Belize where they're out in a, you know, a, a small little, even some would say skiff, some of them have only in the last couple decades moved from a sale to a little outboard engine.

38:28 Um, often these fishermen have more in common with each other than you would expect. 'cause they are, they view them, I, I don't wanna characterize them for them, but what I've taken away from getting to know fishermen in different types or segments of the sector is that, um, they care a lot about ensuring the long-term longevity of their, um, industry. And they, and, and they. They have this, um, really important, you said sort of generational knowledge, which I think is right. Like their, their ability to see into an ocean that is otherwise invisible to everybody else is amazing.

39:14 Uh, yeah. They see things and they feel things and they can interpret things in ways that even a scientists struggle with sometimes. So, um, it is true that there are different types of fisheries and they certainly have different needs and, and qualities, but I think there's more in common than a lot of people often talk about. Well, that's good to know. You get something, you know, you learn something every day. 'cause I don't get to, to interact with a lot of these different styles of, of fishermen and, and the way they use things. So obviously as technology increases, you know, it's supposed to be more efficient and sometimes even better, uh, for, for the fishery. So it's good, it's good to know that and it's, it's good to have that differentiation or even understand some of the similarities and differences, uh, throughout that.

40:00 Now working with, with Fishers, uh, and understanding a lot of the different ways that, you know, once they catch fish, what happens to that fish afterwards? You know, oftentimes I remember reading, I forget where I read this, but I remember reading where, you know, fishermen in North Carolina would, would. Catch their seafood, whether it be shrimp or whether it be fish of, of certain types. And they would, you know, once they unloaded off the dock, it would go into a truck and it would go off to somewhere in Northeastern, uh, US and it would go maybe to New York, fishmonger or Sea, uh, uh, a restaurant or something like that. But they wouldn't know. They, if you asked the fishers where it would go, they didn't necessarily know where it went. Uh, and, and in that area in North Carolina, they actually started to add, um, you know, like a, basically like a, a catch share kind of thing where people can put money in and they would have an idea of like what they could get.

40:52 And they would, they would get some, some, some of the fish, so they would know that the seafood would stay local and the fishers would know who's eating the seafood and you would know who caught your seafood. And it was really a nice, uh, community thing. And, and it, it was profitable for both sides. Um, you know, you get the, the community got affordable fish and seafood and then the fishers were able to, uh, get money for that seafood and see where their seafood goes. It's, it's a really interesting idea, bringing it back to the local and, and less like, let's ship it off, not know where everything goes, but still make our money. But a lot of people in the middle make the money, the middle people, as they say, make, uh, the money and then it kinda grows and grows and gets more expensive and gets more expensive.

41:32 Why are Cat shares such, uh, an interesting solution and a, and a growing solution in a lot of communities, not only in the US but all over the world? Uh, why is that becoming more, it's almost like going back to the local, you know what I mean? It's like when, in our, in to, to make it an analogy, it's like, in our lives we rush everywhere and a lot of times when people say, if you want to be more conservation focused, it's better to kind of slow your life down. You know, Dr. Wallace, j Nichols used to talk about the slow coast and, you know, slowing your life down and enjoying nature a little bit more. I feel like this is kind of like the same thing. Is it bringing it back local and hope that, you know.

42:12 And, and you get the benefits of that. So why is this such a, um, uh, an important tool in, in conservation for fisheries? I think I, I, I like your point. I think often we talk, we talk about how, um, the people closest to, to the problem are often the best to come up with the solution. Um, like we, what am I I, I'm sitting here in this room. What do I know, right? Like, yeah, it's actually the people who are, who are living and experiencing the problem that are gonna be the most likely to have a durable strategy for fix this. Um, and I think what, so what shares? I, I think catch shares is part, like one way for that to happen.

42:56 So if you think about, um, it enabling fishermen to have some, um, agency basically over their, their. Future. This is fundamentally what it is because you're, by providing them certainty that they can catch so much in a year, which is mm-hmm. What the share is, it's like this certainty of how much they can catch, they can figure out how to catch it and maximize their profits on the other end so they could time their catch to when the market conditions are gonna be better. They may get more price per pound at a certain time right. Then, then they, if they were all out at the same time and coming back to the dock with the same at the same time, which creates a market glut and then they get low, low prices.

43:43 And so to your point, like slowing it down actually gives the fishermen more agency decision making agency about their own job and their own economic, you know, potential. They can also do value added, um, enhancements. So you can think about, do you wanna, um. Do you wanna change the type of fishing gear you're using to be able to market to a more higher end crowd, right? Like you can actually, you can do that by, by having certainty, you can fundamentally shift your practice of fishing, which typically is gonna mean less waste, better quality product, higher price per pound, and more ability then to negotiate with whomever is buying your fish from you.

44:33 And you. You see then forward contracting starting, you can, you can plan out not just this fishing year, but future fishing years because you know that, that as long as you don't violate the rules or go over your limit, you know that next year you're still gonna have that percentage share and you can fish more next year. And that driver actually at, at a fleet level, when you think about all the boats in one fishery that have, have some version of shares. Everybody then is incentivized to actually under fish the limit that year. Mm-hmm. Because they can fish more next year. Right. Because it's a percentage share. So that's how you see the fishery rebuild so quickly.

45:15 Yeah. And the fishermen earning a higher profit almost immediately. So it really is this like win-win solution now. It's not perfect. Right. Of course. It doesn't solve every problem in the world. Yeah. Um, or even in the, in the fishery. But it, it definitely, it, it definitely creates that path by which fishermen do better and the fish populations rebound. And that's why I think it's spreading around the world because people are seeing that it, it creates, um, a virtuous, virtuous cycle rather than a perverse one that draws everything down. Wonderful. I love that ex that explanation. Um, here's a question for you.

45:57 When, you know, when we talk, you know, there's a lot of different tools in the conservation tool belt, especially around fisheries. Marine protected areas is one of them. And a lot of times when marine protected areas are suggested, there's a lull in the ability to catch, right? Like they, you know, there may, there might be in that area you can't catch for a certain amount of time or you may not be, be able to catch for a while until the fishery starts to recuperate. 'cause it could be in that state, you know, where it needs to be. When you implement a catch share, you know, you're taking a percentage of, you know, everybody gets a percentage. But like you said, a lot of times under the percentage or maybe even under what the quota it was initially, because you know you can fish more. Is there, um, a delay in fishing?

46:38 So when a catch share is put in, do fishers have to wait a bit and then they're able to fish, like, wait a season or, or what have you until, um, that fish population recoup a little bit more? Or can they still fish? Just they can, they may not be able to fish as much that year compared to the next and the next beyond. I don't know of a case. There may be some that exist. I don't know of a case in which a fishery was entirely closed from day one of a new cat share program being put into place. Okay. And that's a fundamentally a science question of like, well, how much phishing is, is per, should be permittable based on, you know, how much fish are out there.

47:20 So that's really a science question. Um, what we do, what we have seen. So in an extreme case that EDF was very much part of. So I can speak to this. Um. The West Coast of the United States, the Groundfish fishery, which is the same complex of species that are in the British Columbia Groundfish fishery, um, was in a state of collapse. It was declared a federal disaster. And these are, it's like a, it's a complex of dozens of different species, often very difficult to even determine what their differences. Like it's very hard to speciate them. Even when you get them on board, they all look the same and they're super long live.

48:02 So you've got a long, very long live species, which, which should mean it takes a long time to recover, right? Like the recovery trajectory would be very long 'cause it, 'cause it takes a long time for them to get to maturity where they're gonna produce more fish. Um, and when the, the West Coast Groundfish fishery cat share was implemented, there were some of these stocks, some species that were so overfished that they basically had. A a a zero catch limit. Some version, it wasn't quite zero, but it was just, it was just shy of zero. Right. And these are fish that if they all school together, so if you catch one, you're gonna catch a whole boatload of them.

48:46 And if you catch a boatload of them, the entire fleet gets shut down because you've, you've exceeded the limit and the person who caught it is probably gonna be out of their quota. Right. So what the fishermen did was they worked together to create what was called a risk pool. So they pooled their quota of these super overfished species with the recognition that if one person gets hit, everybody's gonna suffer. So we want, we wanna be able to spread that around. And at the same time, then, well, around the same time, they worked collectively to figure out where those super depleted species were most likely to be. And they created these marine protected areas that they all stayed out of.

49:28 Mm-hmm. So in doing so, they never actually hit one of those, what was called a disaster tow. And these super long live super rare fish rebounded very quickly. Hmm. Because it was in their, it was the incentives were set up so that they would protect them. Unreal. This is such a cool thing and it's such a cool, yeah. You know, like it's such a cool tool to use and it brings it back, like I said, locally. And, and I just love that. But it's also a tool that not a lot of people who are not necessarily involved in fisheries or like, just like sort of the, the average person, you know, who's running around and eating seafood like they want, and, um, you know, trying to just survive life as, as, as we live and, and, and stuff, uh, but are not super involved in fisheries.

50:15 They don't really know about cat shares. Uh, and so there's ways to communicate it. And, and, and one way that I love, uh, to make it really entertaining is the way you did it with, uh, your, your, uh, co-writer James Workman. Uh, was this book here, uh, sea Change. I'm gonna put it up here on the video so if, if people are watching, uh, on, on YouTube to take a look at it. And I really love the approach. That you took, that you both took on this, uh, it's called Sea Change, unlikely Allies, and a success story of oceanic proportions, which I love. Um, but it was all about catch shares, but it was, there was a story behind it, and it followed this fisher buddy and he, his entire life from childhood all the way to, you know, Mr.

50:57 Fish who's trying to fish. And, and even in the book, I don't want to give too much away, but even in the book, he says, you know, the, the, the, the words say like, you know, if, if, if, if somebody's gonna catch the last one, if I don't, you know, someone's gonna be there. I see that in the book. And, uh, he's just sort of like what we would typify as a fisher without stereotyping, but following a real story and understanding how the evolution, uh, came to be and, and, and joining in on this, on this catch share, why the book. And, and, and, and is this like a project for from Environmental Defense Fund? Is this something that's personal and like, why did you decide to go the book route?

51:40 It's a lot of questions all at once, so I apologize. Um, well, the book, so I, I think that, um, in a world of one minute increments of news, we sometimes forget about what has actually happened in the world. It's true. So true. So like, a little bit, this is like, um, this is like taking a, it's like taking a minute and, and thinking, you know what, and recalling something really incredibly powerful that happened that made almost no news right at the, like, which was the re and the book is about the recovery of US fisheries, but then it spreads out to how this fisherman buddy doesn't become just.

52:23 Chief a, a chief advocate of sustainable fisheries in the us He then travels around the world and, and brings his story to others as well. And so I think it's really, um, I think the intentionality around the book was capturing the breadth of the story, the humanness of the story of Buddy, um, as the protagonist and the cast of like, of many other fishermen who are involved in that story along the way in some, in some way. And, um, and celebrating it. A little bit of my, like, my purpose here is like, let's celebrate something really great that has happened.

53:05 Yeah. And we spend too much time talking about collapse and degradation and the future's gonna be worse. And I. It isn't always the case. Yeah. And I think we don't do enough to talk about progress and environmentalists are like typified to be the, like the shooting for perfection. Mm-hmm. We're always shooting for perfection and that drives people nuts. Mm-hmm. And I get it. And actually this is about something that's really good and really durable. Yeah. And that's, to me, like that's what we should be aiming for. So a little bit trying to set up that environmental progress can happen.

53:47 Yeah. Um, and, and there's something to celebrate around that. And what I love a, about this story is it spans almost like before, you know Yeah. Fisheries policies came into play. Two, you know, we're at where we're at, you know, over the last like 20 years in terms of, you know, advocacy and, and, and understanding fisheries better. But the story of how the Magnus and Stevenson Act came in. I did not know that story before. I knew of the policy and I knew how effective it was. I didn't, I'm not gonna say how it came in 'cause I want people to read it, but I actually like, stood up from my seat.

54:28 I was at a cottage in front of water, of course, that's where you wanna read your book on water. And I was like, you gotta be kidding. Me and my friends who were around me were like, what are you doing? I'm like, I did not know this. And I told them the story and it was phenomenal. I did not realize that that's how this, you know, fishing policy that has pretty much brought back a lot of fishy, a lot of fisheries around the US was implemented. So I'm not gonna say why and, and how, but read the book. Uh, and it because it's important. It, I think it's, it really gives you a history of how things have come through. It's not always perfect. It's not always necessarily for one reason or another, but there's always a reason why things come in, especially when you look at how it was done, who did it.

55:13 Um. And in a situation where we're in now, where it seems like a lot of people are against the environment, uh, from a policy perspective, how things can maybe come into play that would benefit the environment and real world situations as well. It, it, that's what it made me think about, but again, I don't want to go into too much detail because I don't want to give it away, but all this stuff, like, it's a rich history followed through the lens of, of someone who's gone through problems, you know, with the family and then life and then, you know, it, it's just he kind of goes all over the place and then, but he, he has like a goal and you're, you're invested in Buddy throughout this whole time and, and I just thought it was, is really great.

55:56 Um, now were, have you always wanted, is this your first book or have you written books before? I have not written books. I have to give Jamie a lot of the credit here. So my co-author, who is an award-winning author, right? Um, I am, I am your typical nonprofit executive where if you can't say it to me in one page, like I'm not gonna, like, I can't, there's only so much I can absorb at once, right? So I am, I am not, I I will say, admit that I'm the not the long form narrative driver here. Right. Jamie Very much is, and I'm very unreal, grateful for him. Um, the story was very much a partnership, so I don't want people to think that, like he, you know, he wrote it and my name's on it.

56:41 It's very much a partnership. Yeah. Um, but he did really, I mean, he brought in a lot of those sort of pre-history elements, which I think really make the story much more robust. And there's a depth there that, you know, going all the way back to the first, you know, the, the, the finding of the. First fishing hook and the, in the colonial history of the United States. Like, he was able to pull, I don't know if you've read those bits yet, but he was able to pull things into the story that, um, remarkably like create this, this movement in this story. Yeah. That, um, that give buddy in his, in his life much more richness.

57:22 I often, I don't know if you've ever read Mark Kurlansky, but I've, you know, I read cod, so he had cod salt, I think he had a baseball book where he tells this history of the world around one item and one of of 'em was about catfish in the United States and the, like, the Colonial America and all, and the Basks coming over, you know, even long before that. Anyway, I, he tells the story based on this one thing, and I feel like what we've done in this book is we've sort of cur Lansky esque it. Such that it's really about buddy's life, but it's about how the world is changing based on somebody who's demonstrated real leadership. Yeah. And is an unlikely, um, hero.

58:05 Like you don't expect him to be a hero. Not at all. Not at all. You don't expect it. But you're also not surprised because just the way his life has gone. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're like, yeah, that makes sense. Um, but it kind of goes to the evolution of, of Fishers, you know, throughout their lifetime and what they learn. And just like we have as scientists and, and advocates and, and executives and nonprofits go through the same kind of thing, there's definitely an education through life and life histories and, and um, you know, things that happened, whether it's on a international level or whether it's on a level where, um, you know, we just don't, we just don't understand. So I think it's, I think it's wonderful. I, I really think it's great. I, I would love to get, um.

58:47 Your perspective on catch shares? Like what is the future of CATCH shares? Yeah, it's a, it's a really good question. I think it's a story that will cont in some ways, sort of continue to write itself. Meaning that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that this kind of management strategy works really well. Um, and it works in a diversity of types of fisheries. You can do the kinds that we talked about that are operating here in the United States Okay. That are percentage based, but there are others in Belize, for example, or in tropical coral reef ecosystems where they do it based on an area. Um, so it's much more area based, but still there's. Certain fishermen who have access to certain areas and they defend them, they're called turfs.

59:30 It's an adaptation of a, of a catch share program. And fundamentally, it's a, it's a, it's a market-based and a rights-based strategy. So it, it invests people and it provides for that economic opportunity for them. Um, and I think that around the world, we'll continue to see, uh, fisheries make the conversion. It takes time because you really need the fishermen and the communities to be part of the design process in order to get it right for it to solve for the things that they need it to solve for. Different fisheries have different needs. Um, what is. New in the equation since the US federal fisheries went through its big conversion, which is the story of what sea change lays out is, is climate change.

1:00:18 So with climate change and warming waters we're, we are now seeing a change in the distribution of fish away from the tropics because they're warming That's fine towards the poles, that's worries and Gotcha. And so fish are now crossing political boundaries mm-hmm. That we have put on a map that they don't understand, um, in search of colder waters because there are not fish. Mm-hmm. You know, fish have, they have a pretty, oh, sorry if you heard that computer noise. Um, they, they have a pretty, um, tight thermal tolerance. All sp marine species do the water.

1:00:58 Oceans have been pretty stable for a long time. And so they're looking for cooler things now. Um, and that's why we're gonna see, even in some areas where you change the fisheries management, certain species may never come back. And that's the reality that we have to start thinking about. Like, I don't think we'll ever see. The Gulf of Maine be a place where there's a lot of codfish in the future. Not because, oh, I lost the management system. Lost you again. Is not working for cod. Lost. Lost. It's because Lost again, but that's okay. Their cod pool. What? I'm gonna lemme finish it off here so they're moving north because I think we got a good answer. Know towards, uh, Amanda, this has been wonderful. I I really do appreciate that, uh, you coming on and spending your time.

1:01:42 I know you're busy and I, I do appreciate all the work that you do and all the work that you've put into this book. And Jamie as well. Um, this book will be on sale when we post this recording, so I'll put the links into the, uh, into the show notes so people can get access. So it's, she cha, see change, unlikely Allies, and a success story of oceanographic Proportions. I highly recommend that you read this book. I am loving it so far and I can't wait to finish it. Uh, and this is a, a story that I'm sure we'll hear a lot more of. As we progress. So thank you so much, Amanda. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Amanda, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. It was so fun to be able to talk with you. It's very rare where I speak to executive directors and especially one who was a marine scientist before.

1:02:23 There's a couple that I've done. It's been wonderful. It's just great to be able to hear their perspective and hear this story and why it's so important, why Catch shares are becoming a bigger and bigger tool for conservation, for fisheries, and also benefit both the Fisher as well as their local communities and maybe even a larger portion of that as well. If you wanna buy the book, I'm gonna put the link down below, but if you have any questions or comments, please let me know 'cause I'd be more than happy to answer those for you, or I'll pass 'em off to Amanda. She can help direct you to the answers that you have to know, so just put 'em in the comments below. If you're listening to this on YouTube, or of course you can DM me. At How to Protect the Ocean on Instagram, just at how to protect the ocean. And if you really want to get to know more about the podcast, you can go speak up for blue.com.

1:03:07 There's a contact page if you wanna contact me, it goes through my personal email. Feel free to do that. And that's it for today's episode. I really pleased to be able to bring you this episode. I really am happy that you continue to support the podcast on YouTube, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you listen to your podcast. It is been a continued pleasure. I'm not going anywhere. I just like to acknowledge that and be grateful. I am grateful for the fact that you continue to listen to this podcast. It makes me feel really good that you want to know more about the ocean. So thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the True nor strong and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time in Happy Conservation.