California Votes on 15 MPA Changes in October. Who Got a Say?

0:00 California has a network of marine protected areas that includes 124 protected areas. That's a lot. And you would think, like back when it was established in 2013, that they would have this process that would help manage the changes that happen on a regular basis. So, you can have changes in fish populations, changes in climate change, changes in economics of the state and how things are going, how people are using the different MPAs. And also looking at the science and the data that goes into be like, is this MPA effective? Like, not all 124 are gonna be super, uh, effective. Like, these are added as way… Like, all the locations were done on purpose, but maybe some aren't as effective as they thought, and they may have to move or expand or shrink or whatever that might be.

0:45 And you would think a lot of work would be put into it. And when they talk about revisiting it as part of an adaptive management process 10 years later in 2023, you would think that they would include all of that information. But California didn't do that. And we have Anupa Asoka on, who is the executive director of FishON, and she's here to talk about that process and how it's failing not only the MPAs, but also the people who depend on those protected areas and who want and are not getting the equitable chance to speak. We're gonna talk all about that on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, 'cause that's what we do here.

1:27 If you love this kind of information about how processes work in the ocean and how marine protected areas get better or sometimes maybe get worse or need to get better through recommendations, this is not only the episode for you, but the podcast for you. Hit that follow button on your favorite podcast app. and also I wanted to kind of acknowledge that Anupa has an organizational podcast. A Fish On Air is what it's called. Fish On Air. I'm gonna put the link in the show notes, and I'm also gonna put a link to, petitions that you can do if you hear what she says and you hit on it and you're like, "I wanna take part in this process." Go in the show notes, check that out, hit the link for those petitions and ways you can get to the next meeting in October. I believe she said it was October 13th.

2:08 So, those are very important dates to remember as you listen to this episode. Um, but here is Anupa Asoka from FishON talking about the California Marine Protected Area process and how it's failing the people as well as the environment when it should be protecting them. We're gonna talk about that today. Enjoy the interview, and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Anupa. Welcome back to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about California's marine protected areas? I was born ready. Thanks for having me back. Ah, I love it. MPAs have been my life for the last I don't know how many years now. Oh, I can imagine. I can imagine. Look, we were talking just before, uh, recording, and there's so much going on in this process.

2:53 Uh, we're gonna cut through all of it, and we're gonna really find out 'cause, like, I want the people listening to this to really understand how this process could have gone and how it's going and to really look at the unnecessary stuff that has been happening that is kinda getting in the way of, you know, the process, the management process and getting more effective marine protected areas and listening to the people. And I think there's a lot of serious things that are happening in this process that we're gonna address today. Um, but before we get into all of that, Anupa, like, last time I had you on, uh, you were in a very different role, with marine protected areas, and we also talked about the WAPWell conference, with Angelo.

3:34 But now you have an organization called Fish On. So before we get into Fish On, just let us know who you are, what you do, and then we'll talk a lot about this wonderful organization you started. Yeah. I'm really excited to be back on the show, so thanks for having me. You bet. I am a marine scientist. I actually studied oceanography in graduate school. Um, but I've been working in the science policy world for a long time, mostly with environmental NGOs. Had a little stint at NOAA, in the past too. And I recently started, I guess it's been two years now, I started this organization called Fish On. My first connection to the ocean was fishing and, you know, working on the environmental side, I always found myself up against the fishermen and never really felt represented by those typical fishing interest organizations.

4:26 So Fish On was sort of born to be that middle ground and represent the more conservation-minded angler, spearfisher, and take this, like, solutions-oriented voice for protecting our ocean. So I like to say that, I think a lot of the fishing interest groups fight for fishermen and their rights, and we are fishers fighting for our fish. I like that, it's very interesting. I've had a lot of conversations, in my, position now at Pisces. We have a lot of clientele that are very much, Indigenous-focused, and a lot of the times… they've got fishing backgrounds. Like, their identity is fishing, from centuries and centuries ago.

5:08 That's what they care about. They care about the fish. You know? Mm-hmm. whether it comes out good or bad for them, they care about the fish. And I think that's a, I think it gets lost a little bit, you know, for some communities where, you know, it's all about catching the fish and what comes with that, especially nowadays with all the social stuff and the bragging and all this kind of stuff. But, like, it is really about the fish, isn't it? So, like, what are… Like, when, when, you know, you, you talk about, you know, a community of fishermen and, and, and fishers who are looking to look out for the fish, how do you do that but balance with that recreational aspect of going out and fishing? 'Cause I assume you're still fishing.

5:48 I've seen pictures of you still, fishing. how do you balance that out essentially? Yeah. I mean, we really take a science-forward approach, right? Like, there are real threats to the ocean. There are things that we need to do, and as a fishing community, we also need to recognize that we have an impact on the ocean. and there's a responsibility there. Like, if you are willing to take from the ocean, you also have to be willing to give back to it. And that's the lens and sort of the values that we bring to every issue that we approach. So that might look like, on the fishery management side, you know, common sense approaches for the long-term health of our fisheries, not just our short-term access opportunity right now.

6:32 So maybe that's a closed season for spawning aggregations of a fish that we like to catch, right? So we close it down for maybe a month out of the year so those fish can reproduce and we can fish on. I like that. Um- I love it. I love it. Yeah. No, that's- And yeah, we also work on issues like clean water, um, supporting our partners at the Waterkeeper network, um, and bringing the fishing community in to support some of the, that work. marine protected areas, which I see as an opportunity to restore important- Mm-hmm … habitat and ecosystems. We work on environmental justice and equitable access issues. yeah. So you're looking at the whole gamut.

7:13 Like it's not- Mm-hmm … just about fish, but it i- I mean, it is about fish, but there's a lot that goes into ensuring that like the fish that you're fishing are going to be sustainable. We're looking at habitat, we're looking at rights holders. Yeah. We're looking at people who have a say, access to beaches and areas to fish, all this stuff. So it's really the entire ecosystem underwater and above water, but it really is about the fish. Like, that's all that's connected. And I think it's interesting because a while back, uh, when I was working for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, they changed our fish habitat law, uh, or Fisheries Act, and what they did is they took out the habitat protection when we look at fisheries, and they only looked at the established fisheries, so recreational, Aboriginal, and commercial.

8:00 And then that government left, we put it back. Long story in there, but that was what they were concerned about. But you know, the whole thing is the entire ecosystem above water and below water, which is so important. So I'm so happy that, you guys are doing that. now when you started this, you said you started about two years ago. I'm sure that a lot has happened in, in those two years. You and I have discussed it, a couple of times. But, you know, like, how do you, as someone who's, uh, you know, marine science background, fishing background, You obviously, you've been working in policy. How do you start a brand new organization and become part of this community of other NGOs as well as, uh, I guess fishing organizations, and kind of bring it together with this approach?

8:47 Like, is your approach from your organization and your standpoint a unique approach within the area that you're working with, like within, essentially it's, I guess it's California, right? Yeah. Um, we do a little bit of federal level work, but as you know, progress is hard to come by- Right uh, at the moment. So we're doing our best to support defense and protecting what we have protected- … to the best that we can. but yeah, I mean, you know, I've been doing this work for almost 20 years now. Yeah. Uh, so I have a pretty solid network. People know me. They know what I stand for, both from, fishing communities that I'm a part of or that I've interacted with, as well as the science and kind of environmental NGO side.

9:31 So I don't know. I feel like everything sort of built up to me starting this organization, and I feel like I was the person to try to make this happen, 'cause there really is no other fishing interest group like us- particularly on the West Coast. I would say there's the American Saltwater Guides Association, ASGA, yeah, on the East Coast that kind of similarly takes a precautionary approach to- Yeah how we manage fisheries. but there's this real opportunity here in California with our Marine Protected Area network, that a lot of other states don't have, that I think is a really cool kind of complementary approach to protecting the ocean- Mm-hmm … alongside fishery management.

10:14 that reaches everyone, not just the fishing community, right? I'm also a surfer. I like to dive and experience the ocean in other ways. And, most of our ocean laws and how we manage the ocean are related to fisheries, and that's less than 1% of things that live in the ocean. Yeah. Like, that's what we're tracking, that's what we're managing, and we're expecting everything's gonna be fine otherwise. There's a lot that we're still learning about the ocean. Oh, yeah. And, so many threats out there that marine protected areas become that insurance policy, which I'm sure you've talked about before. Oh, yeah. Just to make sure, even if we get fishery management wrong, there's at least some habitat that is hopefully protecting those things that people like to catch or rely on the ocean for, so.

11:02 And I mean, like, with everything else going on and climate change really starting to drastically affect communities underwater, habitats underwater, above water as well, of course. But, these areas need to become more resilient, and the protected areas system established in California has that opportunity to do that, as well as other places. And it has, in a lot of other places. We know that if we take away certain human extractive activities or human disturbance activities, With everything else going on, we know that these systems can, recover, right? Uh, you've worked in marine protected areas for years and, and you know this. And I love the fact that when you started the organization, you mentioned that you've been building this network for a long time, and maybe not with this purpose in mind at the beginning when you started to build this network- Yeah … as you worked through it.

11:46 But, like, I remember, too, you, were on the board for Surfrider one point. Uh, I'm not sure if that's still the case, but, like, that connection is huge, especially in California. Having all the other connections, like working with NRDC and even with contacts in Still a No and stuff like that. Like, you have that ability, you have that name within there so that starting this organization, people must have been like, "Okay, cool. Like, this, you know, like, uh, like Anupa's got it down. Like, we know what she can do. We know what she's gonna look out for." And I think that probably allows you to partner with a lot of people and organizations that, you know, may not have thought about partnering with anybody else. But now that you come in with this unique but also needed, you know, approach- Mm-hmm it works out pretty well, which I think is fantastic.

12:30 I don't-- You know, a lot of people, I think, come out of school and they just start an organization. Makes it a lot more difficult to start. But once you have that experience and you have the lay of the land, or the water in this case, you can really see where you can have an impact. Uh, that's still, like, a pretty big risk in your career to start an organization. Not an easy thing to do, especially these days. Can I ask, like, I know this is a little personal, so if you don't feel comfortable doing it, it's all right. How has that been for you in terms of making sure things get funded, you know, salary paid, things like that? Like, the organization continue to run in these two years. This is a very important time for you and your organization, and get the stuff done to have that impact.

13:14 How have you found that transition? 'Cause there are a lot of people who are thinking about that transition as well. How have you found that transition for yourself at this point in your career? Yeah. I'm really lucky in that I had a great champion and sort of mentor in this, which is, Marce, who founded Azul. Yes. I guess- Yes they just celebrated their quinceañera, so it's been 15 years. Nice. So I was able to, get some lessons learned from her, and one of her biggest pieces of advice was to start, as a project of a fiscal sponsor and to find a fiscal sponsor. So, a lot of people think that, like, that's who funds me, but actually it's the other way around. I pay them, so all the grants that I bring in, a certain percentage goes to Earth Island Institute as our- Mm-hmm … fiscal sponsor.

13:59 Yep. And they're, like, our backbone 501[c][3] that we operate under. So they take care of, like, filing with the IRS and all of this accounting stuff that I don't need to, I mean, I still- It's- track obviously, but- Of course … like, it just takes that, some of that- Oh … administrative burden- Huge burden … off my plate. Huge. Yeah. Earth Island Institute- Yeah … has been around for years, too. They've been a very well-established, working on a lot of different pl- I think Plastic Pollution Coalition has been involved with them. Mm-hmm. They've they sponsor a lot of, I guess fiscally sponsor a lot of organizations in the US- Yeah … and beyond. Yeah. Good job. So that has been super helpful in allowing me to, focus on the work that I know how to do and I know how to do well, um, and then have someone to lean on for the administrative piece of running the organization.

14:43 So that's been- Love it … yeah- Love it … an easy way to get started. I love it. That's fantastic. okay. Let's talk about the work that you do with FishOn. In particular, we're focusing on protected areas, in California. You mentioned the network of protected areas that have been going on for California. Can you just kinda give us the context, like a bit of the background? I know it's a long story 'cause, like, it's been going on for years, but can you guys give the, the background of when it was established, and then what happened even after it was established? 'Cause there's some, parties, rights holders, that were not necessarily happy what they say, left out of the situation. I don't know the full story here, but can you kinda enlighten us in terms of the context of, what we're at right now?

15:26 Yeah. So California has a network of marine protected areas. There are 124 of them, which were, I think, officially established around 2012. And there was a big process that went into it. there were some, like, longstanding, like, they were called marine life refuges, I think, back in the day, sporadically here and there. but they did this big stakeholder process. They brought in environmental groups, fishing groups, and had these committees, and it was this long, drawn-out negotiation process to design and establish a network of MPAs. So they're designed to be connected and kind of work together to protect species and habitats along the California coast.

16:13 What was written into the law to establish that network is also this thing called adaptive management, which is really smart because as threats change, as our needs change as a community, and as people's values change and evolve over time, it gives us the opportunity to make changes to that network so that it continues to serve people and planet, in theory. Um, ongoing. So we reached this 10-year mark, and the state, they've been doing tons of science and monitoring, and it was this opportunity for adaptive management. They called it a decadal management review after 10 years of having these MPAs.

16:54 So I think many of us saw it as an opportunity like, "Gosh, we didn't think about climate change when we designed this network." we also have learned a lot about, like, social justice in the last 10 years. there are, like, best practices, and we know more about the communities that were left out and how public process can be exclusionary. So much, right, has been learned on that front. So this was a real opportunity to look at the network and say, like, "Okay, are we going to be okay through climate change? And who was left out, and what are their needs, and how can we make sure that our network is serving them?" So I would've liked for the state to have thought about that holistically, taken all of the science and monitoring that they've done over the years and said, "Okay, here are the gaps.

17:45 Here's what we're gonna propose for maybe some minor tweaks. Maybe it's like a border that's easier to notice or lines up with some landmark, on the coast." but also like, "Hey, we know more about, current modeling along the coast. This is a big gap in our network." Or the entire urban area of Los Angeles, which is like a third of the state's population, it's really hard to get to all the MPAs, and one of them is actually near me. Because of land subsidence issues, You can't even get down to it from shore. Really? And they just closed the one to the north, because of erosion. It was too dangerous to get down, right?

18:26 So that was another opportunity. Like, how can we make sure that this big urban center can experience one of our state parks underwater? Mm-hmm. Um, the state didn't do that. Instead, they put the onus on the public and public interest organizations to submit petitions for changes that they wanted. And what came out of that, we have, you know, some environmental groups really, did their best to look at the science. we're losing kelp forests along the state. So there's a pretty holistic petition that looks at persistent kelp forests and proposes some new MPAs, proposes strengthening or expanding existing MPAs to make sure that those areas that have been mapped as persistent and resilient kelp forests, are part of the MPA network.

19:13 Um, then there are other petitions from, fishing industry groups to open reserves and other MPAs to their commercial activity, whether it's diving, or commercial harvest of sea urchins to, pelagic fishing in some of our largest and longest, lived marine reserves. So it runs the gamut, and we've been going through this process for… I think petitions were submitted back in 2023. This has been really drawn out. Yeah. our Department of Fish and Wildlife came back with their recommendations. they didn't really look at climate change.

19:56 They flat out didn't answer the questions that they were supposed to or evaluate the petitions based on environmental justice and equitable access. They just said, "We don't know how to do it, so we're not going to." me, myself, along with a lot of other people caused a stink, and they finally did it. yeah, it's been quite a slog. And then recently, another state agency weighed in, trying to at least answer the climate question and support, uh, some of the tribally led petitions. And we're finally gonna reach the start of a decision point next month. That was a lot. Okay. It's, it's a lot, and obviously not good news in the way that this was managed.

20:39 And very what it seems to me As someone who doesn't live in California, doesn't live in the US, California always seems to be like the lead in especially environmental, projects, whether it be renewable energy, whether it be making sure that the coastline is not subjected to oil and gas platforms and, so forth, and it's renewable energy. We know Californians love their coastline. They love to use the water. They love to fish. Like, there's commercial and recreational fishing. There's, all these different types of outdoor sports: scuba diving, snorkeling, free diving, kayaking, and just boating in general.

21:21 I just did an interview with, a guy who owns like, one of the largest, uh, boat dealers, and he's now getting into electric motors and loving it, and people are loving it. And the government of California has been the lead in a lot of this, like, encouraging this type of behavior. And, you know, it's gotten expensive to live there with a lot of the, programs that have come out. But this is very surprising too, all the work that they went through to establish these networks of marine protected area. You said over, what was it, 120 something? Did you say a hundred and how many? 124. Hundred and twenty-four MPAs. and these are all like inter-- Well, most of them are like interconnected, like there's biological connectivity within them.

22:03 That means larval dispersal and everything that has been accounted for, and there's so much work that's been put into it. And I remember when this was established and covering it on the podcast, where it's like the adaptive management point, part is such an important aspect into the longevity of the effectiveness of these MPAs. 'Cause, like when you first put an MPA together, you don't know. Like, you think you've done the right thing. You've put all the science, you've got all as much feedback as you can. It's not a perfect process, but, you know, you do your best. But in 10 years, you can kinda look it's like, " are all the MPAs working out well? Are they not? And what's that problem? Is it on us? Is it maybe climate change?" Is like, I've read the science that certain MPAs may not do well because it's more affected by climate change, and that might be a way of looking at new areas that might be better to protect, that more effective to protect.

22:53 So there's a lot of stuff that goes in on here, and it had such an opportunity to like incorporate all, as you mentioned, holistically incorporate all this stuff into there. And they just like failed on it and put it on the people to say, "What problem are you having?" Were people just surprised at this approach? Cause, like, I'm sure it's written in the original documents, like, this is how adaptive management is gonna go. Was this, like the original plan for it? Like, just getting the feedback and that's it? I don't think that there was a really good, I don't know, plan or framework for what adaptive management would look like. Mm-hmm. And that might be part of the problem, right?

23:35 Right. Right. We've been figuring it out. I mean, I've watched commissioners, the body that will ultimately make the decision here, debate in real time on how the process should go. Hmm. And I think that's been part of why it's been so, drug out for this long. Yeah. Dragged out. Um- Gotcha. Yeah. so hopefully at the end of this, right, there are some really good lessons learned and- Yeah … I don't know, a working group, something pulled together for- Right … how we can do adaptive management more effectively and really bring in the voices that continue to be left out of these conversations. Um- Absolutely … yeah, I think, I've written about this on our blog, but the Department of Fish and Wildlife is really stuck in the past, and staff at the commission too, and it's been really hard.

24:25 I feel like I spent a lot of my public testimony just, like, fighting for my right to exist and have a voice in the space, and for other communities of color to be able to participate in those spaces. and hopefully slowly breaking through and making progress on that front because I think from a procedural equity kind of lens on all of this, the state has not done a good job at c- creating safe spaces and making sure, there was opportunity for people to feel welcome and to feel heard. Um- Right … voices were minimized. Students have been told that, I don't wanna hear how much you love the ocean." And you know, certain fishermen's voices elevated over others because they profit off of it.

25:10 And I think that mentality really needs to shift if we're gonna make meaningful progress. Let me ask you this, 'cause it seems like a lot of this has come out of not only the Fish and Wildlife, which still again is surprising that they're taking this type of approach. You mentioned the commissioners and the commission. So how is that established? Is that made up of people within Fish and Wildlife to manage this, or is this, like, appointed people or do they have to apply to it? what are their backgrounds essentially in how this commission works? Yeah. So there are five state fish and game commissioners, and they're appointed by a governor, and I think confirmed by the Senate.

25:51 it is essentially a volunteer role. They all have separate full-time jobs. so it's a lot to ask of someone- It's a lot to ask … to be on the Fish and Game Commission. And there's a certain level of, stability that you have to have in your other work and personal life- Of course … to be able to be on that commission. So, the makeup will change based on whatever the administration is and whose term is up and who gets to be appointed by who. Okay. So it's like- But- … so it's volunteer, but they're appointed. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna n- name and shame, but what are their, like what are their other jobs? Like, do they have experience in- MPA management or a background 'cause like, to be honest, like I would like to see somebody on the commission that has somebody, and not to say that it's you, but has somebody with your background.

26:44 At least one to have that science and policy background to understand the process and to stay as you have for the last 20 years to stay into the process of how things have changed with MPA management. Things that you've already, mentioned, like how climate change is gonna affect social justice and equity, how that's gonna affect and how we approach things in a lot of different ways. and inclusion in different communities and looking at a very much, approach, and I feel like this is happen- I feel like this is happening worldwide, but this is kind of disappointing that this is not. But looking at, uh, how indigenous communities manage, have traditionally managed their land and using that, um, philosophy in how we manage the rest of the land as well, because it's very equitable in terms of balancing e-ec-economics and environment in terms of how we manage everything.

27:40 So I guess, like, going back to my original question is, what are their backgrounds, like professionally of the commissioners? What do they tend to be? Are they business owners, things like that, or are they scientists? It's a, it's a mix. Yeah it's important to remember that, I go for the ocean day. Um, but they also manage, like, land or have to deal with land wildlife issues as well. Gotcha. You know? So- Okay. 'Cause fisheries and game, like it's- Mm-hmm … it's both. I gotcha. Yeah. Uh, so one of the commissioners actually participated in the original MPA designation process working for an environmental NGO at the time. Okay. She now, um, runs one of the master's programs at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, so she very much understands the nuance- Gotcha and the dynamics of ocean management.

28:28 I think she even wrote a chapter in a book on ocean policy. I wish I knew what the book was, but yeah. Right. Okay. She knows her stuff. She knows her stuff. Um- Okay, good. Good … and yeah. It has a hard job of, trying to correct the record as appropriate sitting on the dais. one of the other commissioners works for a tribe and represents tribes, represent the tribal community, actually started a tribal committee leading or that supports the commission's work. there's a lobbyist. There's a business owner who is serving as the president of the commission right now.

29:11 Okay. I would say he's pretty pragmatic and does his due diligence on things. And then there is, uh, another professor out of Santa Cruz who is on the commission. Okay. And professor in marine-related items or- More on the wildlife side. On the wildlife side. Of course- Yeah … 'cause it's not all ocean. That's right. Mm-hmm. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay, so that's interesting. So that's, kind of what we'd expect. And it's a bit of a, like a diversity from a professional background. Um, and then you do have a representative from the tribal committees there that works for a specific tribe, which is- Mm-hmm which is good.

29:53 not a tribal member, though, like not a member of the tribe- Correct. Yeah … who works for that. Okay. So this process that's been happening, it still feels like it's just Like biased against the people. Yeah. Right? from what you're saying. and even though it's asking for people's petitions, you know, it's kinda weird. So like, I guess let's go with the petitions that came in. Like, do you know how many offhand that came in, in and around or an estimate? Like were there- I think it was like- … many? … there were 20-something. They divided them into two what they called bins. Okay. And so if some of them were, you know, minor changes like the color on the map is hard for people to understand 'cause, you know- Sure whatever.

30:37 Stuff like that, they've already decided those, what they thought were like the low-hanging fruit and quote-unquote non-controversial. and now we're left with, gosh, I can't remember. Is it 15 petitions that have what they classified as more substantive changes to the network. Okay. So some of those, I should say, include petitions that were submitted by tribes or- Mm-hmm … co-sponsored by tribes. and I would have liked to have seen those elevated and prioritized, by the state. Um- But they were not. Were they just ignored- No … or were they respond, they just- They were- … they just said they rejected.

31:18 Actually in the Department of Fish and Wildlife, which has kind of the science and enforcement side of this, um, that help inform the commission, they even delayed releasing their evaluation of the tribal petitions, for, I don't know, some reasons that probably made sense to them at the time. But to me it seemed like, oh, we're going to separate this and put it through another process, which didn't seem fair or equitable. Right. Right. But yeah. Yeah. And without telling the reasons why too, or they had reasons, but you're just kinda like, "This doesn't make sense. Why- Yeah … separate these out?" Unless they're prioritizing them, then I can understand, but- Yeah … that wasn't the case. They wanted to put them through the tribal committee to have a conversation in that forum, but, you know, a lot of I guess some of the other fishing interest groups rallied folks to that meeting, and they said really inappropriate things, and it was not a safe space for tribal communities.

32:18 and unfortunately no one from the state condemned that behavior, and this was a public meeting for the, tribal sort of the discussions of the tribal petition. So you would imagine- Mm-hmm … a lot of tribal community members would be there who had interest in there. But then they also had, is it non-tribal fishing, groups- Correct. Yeah … that were there? Yeah. Okay. And so they made it uh, very uncomfortable About them. Right. They made it about them. Yeah. Knowing that this was a tribal subject matter. were some of the petitions, like, to reduce commercial fishing in the areas around them? Is that why the fishing groups were so worried?

32:58 Yeah. Uh, so there are some tribally sponsored petitions that would create new marine protected areas, that would be, tribal take only- Yes … essentially. or, some of them include, all shore-based fishing would be allowed in order to support some of the, we'll say, more marginalized of the fishing community- The kind of folks that go out as well as tribes- Yeah … yeah, as well as tribes that are not federally recognized, 'cause that is a weird distinction here in California, where if there are tribal-specific rights, it is only for the federally recognized tribe. There's no way to discern for the non-federal- Gotcha … federally recognized tribal members.

33:44 Gotcha. And so these areas that would allow for limited shore-based fishing, right, would also support those tribal communities as well. So anyway, there's a lot of wonky nuance here. Well, yeah. I mean, it makes the process really complex for volunteer commissioners to go through. Yeah. but again, like I guess the assumption is that these commissioners would take the expertise from a variety of different, like, you know, Fish and Wildlife, as well as other organizations, like within the departments, plus nonprofit organizations and, fishing groups and stuff, and make the decisions based on that. Where, let's be honest, nobody would be happy, but everybody would be satisfied. that's the goal of, these types of- Right … processes.

34:25 But when you mentioned, and I kinda wanna get into this a little bit in more detail this tribal, I guess committee meeting where you had both like non-tribal and tribal members at this meeting. I don't wanna go into what was actually said, but for some of the tribal members, like Did you speak to them afterwards or have the idea, 'cause you were mentioning it, it wasn't safe, like it wasn't a safe space. Was it as soon as they spoke, they were shouted at, aggressively? 'Cause I've seen it happen in Canada, opening up fisheries to, indigenous, groups that have not necessarily had it in the past, but they wanted to give it because they deserve it as part of our reconciliation here in Canada.

35:07 And, you know, you just see like, like really like aggressive protests, and it gets out of hand a lot of the times, turning violent in some cases. - was it similar to that, like shouting matches going back and forth, potentially like could have been conceived as, fairly aggressive? , there were some terrible comments made that came- Yeah … from, I think, a place of entitlement, right? Mm. Mm. Um, it was stuff along the line of, like, "You have your reservations. Why do you need to, you know- Right … take over the ocean?" invoking genocidal policies from the 1800s and saying that they should be used here in California in the ocean, right?

35:50 It was- Right … it was bad. and it was me and another young woman who works at NRDC who were the people that stood up and apologized. it was not anyone from the state, which was- But- … really unfortunate. And they're sitting there watching this. they're- Mm-hmm … seeing this play out, all these comments happening. Did they look disgust- did they look like they were like, "Why are people saying this?" at least in that kind of way? Or, and like, I just… Like, I don't understand not saying anything as a government representative, but also, like, did they look uncomfortable too by what people were saying? Like, shock? 'Cause I'm sure, like, when you hear that in a public comment period, like, you're just like, " this is ridiculous. How can people do this?"

36:31 Yeah. I don't know if, you know, it was just, like, expected and sort of normalized that the folks that showed up would take that sort of stance. I really, I wish I could say what or why. Right. but I will say- Yeah, obviously you can't be in their brains, like, and yeah … the fact that, a few people did, kind of condemn the behavior, I think put them on notice. So- Right … I would hope that that is a good lesson learned for moving forward. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I mean, like, look, We obviously understand that this is not an easy process. We understand that people's livelihoods are at hand for, on both sides. So there's- Mm-hmm … gonna be some contentious issues. But the reason why the process is there is so everybody can have their say, Right and be able to feel comfortable to have their say without the backlash of somebody saying stuff, as you mentioned, invoking genocidal, you know, policies from the 1800s.

37:25 Like, that's disgusting i-in its own right. And it makes this whole process almost like, what's the point if people aren't gonna be able to speak up 'cause they're afraid to speak up? Right. and how to- get past this and make it so that people can actually be okay with speaking up in a safe spot. I don't know if it's separate meetings, I don't know if it's together. many of these people are adults. I don't understand why they're, treating each other this way. but we know it happens obviously, right? Like, we can't be ignorant to the fact that this doesn't happen and it's awful. but as you said, the commissioners and the committees who are there need to set some ground rules in terms of how this happens.

38:07 And if you say something or you think of saying something, just leave, like you're gone, so that people- Yeah can feel comfortable. Um, right? And it's just, I don't understand it. So I guess, like, uh, you have relationships with the people who were at present at that, meeting. Obviously, they're frustrated. can you talk about how they felt after the meeting? Uh, like just from your conversations with them. I don't want you- Yeah … to speak for them or, or feel comf- like, I want you to feel comfortable just saying- Yeah … what you heard. I mean, I, I got some text messages from members of various tribal communities just saying, "Thank you." Mm-hmm. Like how horrendous and how awful that was, and they were grateful that someone, you know, spoke up and called it out.

38:47 other people, I had, staff at the state say, "Well, no one in the tribal community that was in the room seemed bothered by it, and so you had no right to make it a big deal." yeah. which, like if you have lived your whole life having to tolerate those kinds of comments and that behavior, yeah. And it not being a safe space, speaking up in the moment isn't gonna feel worthwhile. Even reacting. Through a lot of conversations, I know a lot of people who are just like, Man, that was really racist what this person said," like through a video and things like that. and I, see people, that I know of color just be like this is normal, and I'm like, "Well, how do you react to it?

39:35 Are you not angry?" He's like, "Yeah," but he's like, "I just don't do anything anymore 'cause every time I try and do something, nothing happens or I get the backlash." Right. "I look like the aggressor. I look like the quote-unquote complainer." And this is a clear case of that. If you react, it's… , you're trying to be the better person. You're trying to be safe, too, in this world, you do what you can to survive, and sometimes that silence is assumed to be like it's complicit, but it's not. And to have people- Yeah … on the commission say, "Well, it didn't look like they reacted," and you're like, "Why? I don't even know why you would mention it," is just the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and just the most ignorant thing that they can go through.

40:18 I don't get… Like, it feels like that entire commission should be going through some sort of course or- Yeah like strategy of how to be inclusive and how to recognize when people are petrified and won't speak up because of what people are saying. if they're not going through that or they haven't had a background in that, they should not be on, in a position like this. Yeah. I mean, I will say, some of the commissioners are very well aware of how- Right problematic a lot of that was. Some of this comes from staff and a long history and culture of, you know, not understanding or having to understand these different perspectives.

41:02 and so yeah, I think there's a big cultural shift that needs to happen to make sure that they're really hearing from, the diversity of people in California, 'cause it is a very diverse and, I don't know. there are polling numbers that show just how much people love the ocean and wanna protect the ocean, and if you sit through a Fish and Game Commission meeting, that is not the vibe of- Right … the voices that they're hearing. So yeah. Do you think this is a consequence of The department's lack of approaching it from a scientific as well as a holistic point of view, as we mentioned at the beginning of this conversation.

41:47 As you mentioned, like, if they had approached it, like looking at the science, looking at where people are fishing, you know, where they're not, or what's important to certain groups and what's not important to certain groups. I ask this because I remember sitting in on a lecture when I was in my graduate school, and, Brian Day, who was the, commissioner at the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park, came over. He was a good friend of my supervisor's, Dr. John Roth. And they had just finished increasing the number of reserves, like no-take reserves by 30%, went from 3% to 33%. Huge thing, especially in the Great Barrier Reef.

42:27 And he mentioned one of the things that was hugely important was that every fisher, commercial fisher had a GPS on its boat, on their boat. And they didn't like it at first, but then when they looked at the tracks of where they went, everywhere where they recommended to increase the no-take was where the boats weren't going anyway he says it avoided a lot of problems because we just showed the data. This is where you go, this is where we wanna increase. Like, they saw opportunity in increasing, and it ended up being important areas for these reserves. And it's like, not only are we gonna protect these areas where you don't go, but it's gonna help with the fish that you're fishing as a spillover effect.

43:11 Right. Do you think, like, not presenting that data, I don't even know if they have that data, or not looking at that data or if they had presented that, that would've potentially helped with some of this backlash? Yeah, I don't know. and that is the double standard that exists. they did these regional meetings, where you could comment on all of the petitions, and I think counted it up. It was almost, like, 40… Was it 40 hours? So 20 public comments at least. I forget the number now. It was a lot. I- Yeah … gave way too many public comments. But my favorite one is I basically took the fishing industry talking points and spun it back around because, you know, as someone that commercially fishes, I can just say, "I fish there.

43:52 You can't protect it with no data to back it up." Or, like, "This is going to negatively impact my business." No data to back it up. But the amount of science and rigor that has to go into creating that protected place, and the amount of compromise that goes into it based on unjustified use information that people are sharing, and still not even supporting the conservation measure, right? it's wild that we have anything protected or good for the environment at all. Well, 100%. Like, it, it- Yeah … it, I understand you want, you want feedback from the different communities. But then there's also, you provide the science and the data, whether you call it science or not, you provide the data to provide the evidence for justifying that area.

44:40 and sometimes the data could be in different forms. I say science, but not, the science that I think I would be thinking about data points- Sure … and things like that. There's traditional knowledge from not only, tribal communities, but also from, fishing communities. And local knowledge from, you know- Hundred percent … commercial fishermen, right? That's all- Exactly … valuable information. Yeah. Um, but- But it seems like with these petitions, from somebody outside looking in, it seems like it causes more conflict by just looking at the petitions and not presenting, an assessment at the beginning. This is how well everything's going, and this is where we're seeing parts where we're seeing it's not as effective as we initially thought. And then now we have your petitions, and we see maybe there's some agreement in here of, like, it doing well, it not doing well.

45:26 Presenting that data kinda takes away some of that- I don't know, that aggressiveness Right … between groups. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. Like, I don't know if it's gonna happen, but I would imagine that's if you present the data per first and then include the petitions. Well, I think the fact that it was public interest organizations that submitted petitions based on science, right? Yep. it politicized or made it seem like that science had some, vendetta, right? Yeah. Rather than if it came from the state, I think that there would've been a level of trust. Whether people liked it or not, they would probably still oppose it, but at least- Sure … there would've been a level of trust in the science that was used and how it was used.

46:10 And to be frank, I'm disappointed in how the Department of Fish and Wildlife even interpreted the science that they do have and what felt like a selective use of a lot of research, data, and science that has been collected- Right over the last decade or more, unfortunately. So. Yeah. I mean, like- 'Cause I think they just don't wanna do the thing. I think they just wanna have what they have and call it a continued win, um, and not go through the effort of- Yeah. Yeah. I find it so interesting too, because it's such a large MPA network, and it is such a great opportunity to show off what we can do as people, you know- Yeah with this data.

46:56 And to have people who just don't seem like they wanna do it properly is just beyond disappointing. I don't know, maybe you and I are different, but like, imagine, you know, I've been in this game for 25-plus years, and I like, I look back at my younger self, and if I graduate and I had an opportunity to start collecting data in these MPAs and, and looking at the data, I would have so many papers that I would wanna write that, you know, where you're just like, "Look at all this cool stuff. Like, this is working, but this isn't working, and this is why. And then we can do this, and then we talk to this group, and they're giving feedback." It seems like such a cool thing to do. And then you, hear this like, it just doesn't seem like they wanna do anything.

47:36 And to just to have that persona, you know, that reputation of like, " what do you mean you don't wanna have this?" Like, there's so much time and money. Like, this was a product of the marine spatial planning that was coming from the Obama years, you know, when you had these council groups that was put all over the US, and this was a product of that, right? Like, this was what we came out with this, and it could've been such a cool thing. And then to have this of just like, "Yeah, we'll just get petitions and we'll just have you fight each other out for it, and whoever wins- Yeah … whoever makes the most money out of it, well, then that's what how we'll go forward." Yeah. Well, okay, so the other side of this, right, is This came on the heels of the executive order in the state for 30 by 30.

48:21 Right. So to protect 30% of lands and waters. And California had this really important piece of that 30 by 30 first executive order, and then it was passed and codified by the legislature. So if that tells you the amount of public support for protecting lands and waters. I don't know, right? We don't see. Yeah. but it had this, like, human component for equitable access. And, if you really wanna look at equitable access, it's not just being able to fish wherever you want. It's making sure that everyone has access to a healthy, thriving coastal area to do whatever they wanna do there. Or even not to go to the coast, to sit 100 miles inland and just know that the ocean is protected, if that's what you value.

49:04 Like, you have an equal say in what happens. Yeah. Yeah. so we do have this 30 by 30 thing. The Department of Fish and Wildlife and the commission tried to decouple whatever their decision-making was from 30 by 30, so that was a whole nother thing. Interesting. Um, but we have another state agency called the Ocean Protection Council, and they're sort of the policy lead, under the governor's office and then the, what is it? California Natural Resources Agency. And they did their own evaluation and suite of recommendations on all of these petitions. They really looked at that environmental justice piece and what the tribes wanted, had conversations with those tribal leaders, and actually recommend, advancing some of those tribally led petitions and some others with this climate lens.

49:52 Understanding, like, we're in this crazy marine heatwave with a pending El Niño. I don't think I remember the water dipping below 60 degrees all winter. that is wild here in Southern California. Yeah. and I'm scared for what this fall is gonna look like- Mm-hmm … in a lot of ways and how our health- With this El Niño and s- might, may or may not come back, you know? Mm-hmm. So, I will give it to the Ocean Protection Council. They considered some of that. So, there is another suite of recommendations that give us an opportunity. And so hopefully in a month, we'll have some positive news to report, Absolutely. Now- … based on that you know, I always like to, as we-- I was coming t-to the end of this conversation.

50:35 You and I could probably talk about this for like three more hours easily. but, you know, as we get close to-- You, you mentioned this meeting in October. Is there anything, like, the audience can do? Uh, we have a lot of California listeners. We have a lot of listeners who are- Yeah … who are very interested in MPAs. I talk about MPAs all the time here. Is there anything that they can do to help with this process to either sign petitions or really help in terms of making this process a lot easier, whether it's for this month or the next month's meeting or even in the future? Yeah, absolutely. So Fish ON, our website is actually fishon.us. Mm-hmm. and on our News and Resources page, there is a form on our latest blog post that is, a kind of a pre-filled letter based on our positions.

51:19 Yeah. The positions that we took on each of those petitions. But you can edit that. So if you wanna say, "I support everything that strengthens our network," you can make that letter your own, and it goes straight to the Fish and Game Commission for their decision-making next month. Um, if you wanna show up to that meeting, if you're in California and can get up to Sacramento, that's also an option. You can DM us on social media and we can connect you. I think there might be bus opportunities- Okay … people rallying together- Okay … to show up. I like that. Um, and then there are some other organizations, right, if they're more aligned with your values and what you want from the ocean. NRDC has some resources. Um, Environment California and Azul are the ones- Mm-hmm … that sponsored a lot of those resilient kelp forest set of petitions or set of- Okay … potential new expanded strengthened areas.

52:09 So those are- Yeah … some other organizations you can check out if that's more your vibe. I love it. I love it. You know, one thing that I go back to all the time when it comes to these types of processes It matters who shows up to these meetings. Definitely. It really does. And we've talked about it, a fishing group that comes in and wants to hijack a meeting and make things uncomfortable, they can do that. But the opposite can happen as well, where you can show up for your support for the environment, for your support of making sure people have their, right to speak and they feel safe to have the right to speak. I'm not talking about going in and being aggressive. I'm talking about going in and supporting the process to make sure that people have access to the speech that they want, you know? And I think that's important. And I remember speaking to, Chad Nelson, who's the CEO of Surfrider, and he was talking about how one time, don't know the full details of the… But they were gonna build, I think it was like some kind of plant in front of a surf spot.

53:00 And- Oh, was it the toll road at Trestles? Yes. Toll roads. In Southern Cal- That's, that's what it was. Yeah. And he got so many people to come out. Like the Surfrider as an- Yeah … organization and their partners got so many people that they had to listen to the people. And I think this is where, you know, like MPAs are so important. So, so important. But they're not the sexy thing to do. You know what I mean? It's not like it's not gonna get you know, millions of clicks on social media and stuff like that. It's the process that works. It's the going to the public meetings, supporting the people who want, to have a say, having that say, feeling safe to do so, and also just being able to be there and showing your support for the network of MPAs to work effectively, I think is super important.

53:44 So, you know, as Anupa said, we'll put the links so that you can get access to, whether it's buses or anything like that, or fishon.us. We'll put the links in there for the petition I say just show up if you can. It's a far drive from Southern California if you're in Southern California or even in Northern California, but, get out there as much as you can and the more people we have, the better to be able to fight for this network, the proper network, right? Yeah. Absolutely. And if anything too, right? It's the long game of making sure that the staff and those decision makers know that the ocean belongs to everyone, and everyone deserves a say, no matter what you like to do in the ocean or not do in the ocean. Absolutely. That was said perfectly. I absolutely love it.

54:25 Uh, speaking of said perfectly, don't forget, that, uh, we wanna promote your podcast- Oh, yes … uh, Fish On Air. Uh, you know, speaking of things said perfectly, you can subscribe to it. I assume it's on every podcast, app. I, I, well, I look at Apple, so, and Spotify, and I've seen them on there. Uh, so, so- Yeah … go subscribe to there. Listen to, the last episode was on El Nino, uh, and talking about fish. Check it out. I think it's super important, that we support these podcasts, because this is where you get all the good information. and so, uh, so yeah. Yeah. I have to give you a shout-out there too, 'cause you were very generous with your time and advice, and helping us get that going, so. We need more podcasts- Yeah, thank you … out there. We need more podcasts out there. We need more ocean podcasts.

55:06 Yes. Yeah, more ocean podcasts. And again, you know, to be honest, like, as we talk about different voices, uh, you know, you, you don't get a better opportunity to have a say, and have different voices say, is through podcasting and through content creation, where you can have that say, uh, on whatever you want. and, people, we all need to speak up for our own communities and, everybody there's people who listen to me who may not vibe with me and, will vibe with you or vibe with both of us, right? it's the, that diversity of, of people to speak from all over the world, from wherever you are, whatever you look like, you know, whatever cultural significance you have. Like, it's so important to have that, that diversity.

55:49 So yes, we need more ocean podcasts. They need to have one on MPA, I think, I feel like. Yeah. You know, like a specific one- It's its own topic … just on it. It's own topic in itself. I think it'd be awesome. But Anupa, thank you so much, uh, for coming on. Thank you for all the work that you've been doing, and you continue to do, with Fish On Us. Uh, I say Fish On Us, 'cause that's the, it's fishon.us. But, uh, with Fish On. I really appreciate everything you've done. Bringing your experience, you know, bringing that network together, and this unique approach, and it's standing up for others. It's a brave thing to do, and it's not- Thank you … uh, that, that doesn't come with, with ease. I appreciate that from you. I have the full respect on what you're able to do and what your colleagues are able to do. So, thank you so much for coming, and thank you for the work that you do.

56:31 Thank you. I really appreciate it. You bet. Thank you, Anupa, for joining us again on the podcast. This is our third time, a hat trick here is what we call it in Canada. Uh, and she is on the podcast talking about very important things. Like, we talked a lot about how, you know, not using the data and the science could be a reason why there's so much conflict in the first place. And having, petitions come in and only looking at certain petitions in certain ways and others in a different way doesn't seem like everybody gets a fair shake, right? And I think that's the, the problem with these, processes is that this historical need to prioritize certain communities over others gets in the way of actually protecting the area.

57:12 Because everybody should have a say. If you live along the coast, everybody should have a say, and everybody needs to have a say. Whether that's taken into account or whether it's valuable to the process, doesn't matter. People should have a say. They're part of a democracy in the U.S., they're part of a democracy in California, and they need to have that say. And when people are not allowing it to happen for whatever reason, whether they're trying to be aggressive with others and intimidate others, or you have a commissioner panel who is not allowing for safe, reflection and safe, uh, speaking abilities, that gets to be a huge problem. So, with that said, uh, you know, check out these links in the show notes. There's gonna be links to fishon.us, which is gonna go to the petitions.

57:53 You're also gonna see a link to the podcast that they have, called Fish On Air. Uh, and of course, you know, there's links to my social media. If you have any questions or comments about this MPA process, please let me know. If you're on Spotify, hit us up with a comment. You can tag Anupa, you can tag me. Love to have a chance to interact with you 'cause this is the beginning of a conversation. There are a lot of things that we can do better in this process. It's not as if it's a failure. It's a way of identifying how we can do better in the future to ensure that people have the right to speak, they feel safe to speak, but also to protect these major resources that belong to everybody along the California coast and California state. So, I wanna thank Anupa for joining us on the podcast.

58:34 I wanna thank Fish On for the work that they do and for standing up for people to make sure they have that right of freedom of speech, uh, in a safe way. And I wanna thank you for listening to this podcast, because without that, I wouldn't be doing this each and every day. I do appreciate you, and I do appreciate the work that you do and the work that we can do as a community to help out with these processes. So if you wanna jump on a bus to Sacramento or you're in the Sacramento area or in that area where you can go to these meetings, join the meeting, be respectful, make sure people can speak, and you get your voice out there as well as part of this community. We would love to see that. If you do go to that meeting and you wanna talk to me after, I would love to hear your experience at that meeting. But thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

59:18 I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.