Art and Ocean Science: How Creativity Reveals the Deep Sea's Hidden Stories

1:00:00 What happens when a sculptor, a theater director, and a science program coordinator come together to explore the deep ocean? In this episode, we're surfacing the hidden connections between art, memory, and the sea, and revealing how creative minds are helping scientists unlock new ways to protect the ocean. That's what we're gonna talk about on this episode of the "How to Protect the Ocean" podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the "How to Protect the Ocean" podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And today's episode is part of our monthly Surfacing Secrets series, where we highlight the powerful intersection of art and ocean science, and how creativity can open new ways of seeing, understanding, and protecting the blue planet.

1:00:50 In this conversation, we're joined by Parvan Hasani, a sculptor and interdisciplinary artist, originally from Iran, Dennis D. Gupa, a Filipino theater director and climate storyteller, and Dwight Owens, the coordinator behind the ONC Art Science Fellowship Program at Ocean Networks Canada. Together, we explore how their work connects memory, migration, resilience, and deep sea mysteries, and how artists and scientists are learning to speak a common language, all in the service of understanding and protecting the ocean. This is gonna be a great interview, and I can't wait for you to hear it. So here's the interview with Parvan, Hasani, and Dwight, enjoy, and I'll talk to you after. Hey Dwight, hey Parvan, hey Dennis, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1:01:34 Are you ready to talk about art intersecting with ocean science? Oh yeah, you're ready. All right. Very excited. Yeah. Good, good, good. I'm so excited too. This is gonna be a lot of fun because a lot of times, you know, on this podcast, we talk about conservation, we talk about science, and we get into some of the technical stuff, and we look at campaigns and how well they work. And we do get into arts, but not enough, because I feel like art is just a way of expression, which we're gonna talk about today, in the different ways of expressing through art. And it's a good way to communicate, like science, climate change, ocean issues, oceans, positivity, and optimism through this medium to an audience that's ready to just kind of take it up in various ways.

1:02:20 So I'm very, very excited to be able to talk about that. We're gonna be talking about Ocean Networks Canada's involvement in building this program. And we're gonna talk about some of the fellows. We're gonna talk to some of the fellows, Parvin and Dennis, a past fellow in this program, and how it's allowed them to grow as an artist, especially intersecting with scientists and being able to speak to scientists and interact. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. So this is gonna be very excited for this. But before we get into all of that, I'll just kind of let us know who you are and what you do. We'll start with Parvin, then we'll go Dennis, and then we'll go Dwight. Hi, I'm Parvin Hassan. I'm Iranian interdisciplinary artist and the current art science fellow in Ocean Network Canada.

1:03:06 Perfect. And Dennis? Dennis Gupa, I am a theater director and assistant professor at the Department of Theater and Film at the University of Winnipeg in Manitoba. Perfect. And Dwight. Hi, I'm Dwight Owens. I'm a long time employee of Ocean Networks Canada in various roles and currently serving as the manager of impact and capacity development. Awesome. Now, Dwight, in the past, like when we've talked in the past, you described yourself as not an artist and not a scientist, but clearly you're a connector, you connect.

1:03:46 So how did your background in languages and instructional design shape your approach to building the ONC arts and science program? Well, hmm, you know, you mentioned I'm a connector and I did take the strengths based, whatever that test is, looking at your strengths and connection was one of the top strengths for me. So there we go. That's really what I like to do is bring people together and, you know, try and see how different strengths of different people can even become greater through that synergy.

1:04:28 And yeah, so I was working for Ocean Networks Canada. I was working with Kim Juniper, our past senior scientist, and he invited me to work with him to develop this artist in residence program, which we're now calling our Art Science Fellowship. So it was an invitation and I've learned that it's a good thing to say yes. I think it's great. And now, you know, having like a visionary come to you and be like, OK, I want to build this fellowship program. Did you have any kind of art background?

1:05:09 And if not, like what was it like to build a program out like this? You know, my my arts background is very informal. I took some classes in high school and university and I dabble around in various things, but nothing really formal and. But we have guidance because we have connection with the faculty of fine arts at the University of Victoria. So that there are, you know, faculty that will help us, the the dean of the faculty of fine arts is will be quite involved and very supportive. So we can tap into their network and they can really guide us on how to work with artists, with students, grad students and, you know, help them develop in this role.

1:06:01 It's kind of an interesting thought process of, you know, you have this very technical organizations in Ocean Networks Canada, gathering data, learning how to at the time, you know, it was you know, you've been with them for a long time. But as they gathering more and more data, putting more instruments in the water, being able to build relationships with with the communities in all the various different ways, you know, obviously integrating with University of Victoria and the different programs. Do you was it hard for the organization to, you know, build a program like an arts program, like an arts fellowship, knowing like there's such a there's such a like, you know, there's there's a lot of engineers, a lot of, you know, communication with a lot of technical people there.

1:06:47 Was it difficult for that crossover to get into the arts for the for Ocean Networks Canada? You know, I think I think that's a still in process. You know, we have leadership, Kate Moran and and Daniela Luke, who strongly support this program. And, you know, when I talk to staff members at O and C, they're supportive. They like the idea, but it's, you know, it's not high on their list. Right. So, but, you know, by the same token, if I arrange a meeting, if I ask for something, they're happy to help. Yeah. And, you know, just this summer, Parvin wanted to have access to discarded tech from the deep ocean.

1:07:36 And so we contacted a fellow at the Marine Technology Center and he was very happy to help. And yeah, found some cable for part of it. It turned out to be not the right color. But so people are they are responsive. They are interested. Yeah. But it's just they feel like it's outside of their right. You know, they're their duty list and bringing the arts like really into the way we work. That's we're not there yet. Yeah. You know, it's funny. You're growing up as a scientist or like being educated as a scientist and always having that thought of like, let's just, you know, here's the problem. Let's use math to solve it. Let's prove it and find the evidence and then see what it does and interpret it like a very technical way.

1:08:21 But I was recently reminded that science is very is very creative in itself because you have to be creative in how, you know, you are going to interact with the ocean when you when you do your study. You know, you might be using technical tools to be able to gather the data, but you still have to be able to work within that medium. You have to adapt quickly, but you have to be creative in how you are going to collect that data to make sure that it's not only the right data, but you're getting all of it back. And that takes some creative practice, probably not in the same way as someone with the background in fine arts, but it still allows us to be to be creative. And I had a guest recently on Beyond Jaws podcast who was worried about it not being more creative because, you know, she had some learning disabilities and being creative was really a good part to help her express, you know, and understand things.

1:09:15 And when her advisor said, no, you could actually be very creative in how you design your study, it really opened up her mind to it. So I think a lot of scientists and engineers and so forth in the STEM area need to open up her minds a little bit to understand that, yeah, no, we are creative because you've never seen a more creative person than an engineer or a scientist out at sea. You know, when something goes wrong or an instrument is not working and be able to MacGyver something together and they don't piece things together. So that's that's how I see it as creative. So I think there's a lot more of that bridge than we than we initially think. And I think the more we build relationships and interact with with with artists and understand how they express, you know, like the science or the message that we're trying to put out, I think you can get a lot of synergies within that.

1:10:04 So so I love that that aspect. Do I want you to just tell me about. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Were you gonna say something? I was just gonna say another thing, which is that, you know, it's it's really about curiosity. Yes. And, you know, that is key for the scientists, but also for the for the artist. Yes. They're trying to understand and they're trying to understand how we relate to things and how we can really understand express and communicate. So curiosity is a shared language. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, tell us about what this the fellowship is. What it what what does it entail? How do artists become part of the reply to be part of this fellowship? How does it all work? Yeah, we've, Parvin is our sixth Art Science Fellow.

1:10:56 And Dennis was our second. So we're still pretty young on this. But we recruit, we offer this fellowship to grad students at the University of Victoria. And it's a four month fellowship program, we provide a stipend, we bring them into our organization, and we invite them to be embedded with one of our teams, come together and do a fellowship. We invite them to join other teams, come to the regular staff meetings, join other meetings, learn about the science, learn about the technology, go visit our Marine Technology Center, just kind of get embedded and involved and let the the organizational activities seep into their their outlook and their view.

1:11:51 Then they're free to create something, work with others or work on their own and develop and develop their own practice. So they may spend time at ONC or in a studio or going back and forth. Parvin's been doing that. And when it was Dennis's turn, he worked remote because it was COVID. Yeah. So it's just trying to bring them in to help them understand. And also, to bring that kind of, you know, arts point of view to the science groups, they may be able to ask questions in a different way and think about things in new ways.

1:12:39 And so we've had some fascinating conversations with deep CEO geophysicists talking about the, you know, the networks and the memories of hydrothermal vents. We'll get into this later. Yeah. Yeah. Unreal. Unreal. That's awesome. Now, Dennis, when you you were the second person to come through the fellowship, but you come from a background of theater. What is it for you about theater that allows you to express you like express the message that you're trying to get it across, whether it's science or any other message? Why did you choose theater as that as your art form?

1:13:20 Well, part of it is the history of my embodied expression. I was earlier introduced to theater and probably if I was introduced to creative writing and I have mentors in filmmaking, I would also go in that field. But early on, I saw a pantomime group in our village and I was taken by the power of real commitment to express beyond oral language because Philippines is really it's a traditional country where we rely on oral expression.

1:14:04 And I saw that performance and it's devoid of language and they're almost dancing. It's an international group as well. So and eventually I realized that this is something that I really would like to develop in me this kind of craft of expressivity. And then several years after I saw a filmmaker also went to our community and now is a national artist for film Ismael Bernal and I saw the leadership of this director commanding the community to be quiet because here in the Philippines when there's a film making sessions or film shooting, people would gather and watch as well.

1:14:48 So it's all like the community and I and this community is really busy and danced and crowded. So when he commanded them to be quiet, they are there. They became quiet. And I said, maybe I'm attracted also in this kind of leadership in creative. Amazing. Now, growing up in the Philippines, you grow up with a lot of storms. You know, we talked earlier before we started recording, you mentioned how, you know, typhoons is like a, you know, it's expected, you know, sometimes, hopefully not too severe, but it's it's expected.

1:15:29 I think you mentioned there's like sometimes 20 in a season and the rest of us were like, holy cow, I can't believe, you know, that's a that's a normal thing, but that's a normal thing growing up and some are more devastating than others. Can you talk about how typhoon Yolanda changed your understanding, you know, of your role as an artist within your village and country? Yeah, so I there's this anthropologist, feminist anthropologist and geographer Kia, Kia Okambogoa, and she said that disasters are like weathers. It's an everyday thing in the Philippines.

1:16:11 And you have no other choice but to be confronted by the violence of the weathers, extreme weathers, events in the Philippines. And Filipinos have probably tried to be improvisational with it. But at the same time, there's also this kind of activist consciousness that we don't want it anymore. Like we have to recreate an imagination that these disasters are real devastating. It costs a lot of, you know, resources and lives. So we have to refuse it. And I think that I'm already in this kind of philosophy that my art has to contribute in, you know, advocating for a more justice, social justice when we think about typhoons.

1:17:10 Yeah, interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. Now, you describe before, when we spoke your your master's journey, you know, as a search for answers, you know, looking at answers and the question I have for you is like, what did you discover about that intersection of climate change and performance art along the way? Like, how did you see that coming together? Yeah, I, you know, I always tell my students that my migration to Canada is also a migration of search for my own craft because I wanted to go deep with my craft and I was an international student, but it was also confronting the truth about climate justice and climate injustice in the Philippines.

1:17:59 Because when I arrived in Canada at the University of British Columbia, that was September and November there was a big typhoon, super typhoon, Yolande, as you mentioned. My supervisor, one of my teachers said, come to my office, I'll show you something, I'll tell you something. And she said that there was a big typhoon. And I said, don't worry, because we always have that we have phones of typhoons. And she showed me photos, images online of the devastation of super typhoon. I was quite shocked because I was from the Philippines and never really imagined the kind of magnitude and the violence of that kind of typhoon. And it started to dawn on me that the relevance, the extreme relevance of art, what is this art about when there's so much suffering in the Philippines?

1:18:57 The Philippines and they were talking about climate change and there was kind of a disconnect to me, like, what is climate change? I've been hearing it as a concept, as a theory probably. And I was trying to connect with the global warming because that was the idea that I grew up with during my youth in the Philippines, global warming, global warming. And I finished it. I continued my MFA and then I went ahead with my PhD. So I went to University of Victoria because I really wanted to interrogate my artistic practice and artistic method and the philosophy behind and the philosophy behind art and its relevance.

1:19:46 And then, yeah, and I started writing about climate change and applied theater and indigenous ecological knowledge. And I realized that, you know, engaging with art, you should just, we should not stop with aesthetics. We also have to think about the ethics behind it and also the politics that you can, you know, shape and forge and the voice and the agency that you could discover and extend it to the people and the communities that you would like to work on. And, you know, eventually I met Dwight and ONC and had to discover the great potential of collaboration within this artistic embodiment and inquiry.

1:20:38 Wonderful. Can you, before we were going to ask Parvin on her, a bit of a bit of her background and how she got to ONC. Before we do, can you talk about one of your theater projects before meeting, before coming to ONC? And what that looked like right before and what that looked like. Had it already had you already been on your journey towards like with climate change or were you still like discovering that part? Yeah, I think it's also an ongoing process for me before coming here in the Philippines, doing my visiting research fellowship at the University of the Philippines, Los Panios. I taught a spring course at my home department, University of Winnipeg, Applied Theater and Climate Change. So I have this collaboration with faculty members from different different faculty departments of our university and to introduce our students, theater students and education students and also environmental students.

1:21:43 It's a very interdisciplinary work. So we have this faculty members coming to my class, engaging the students to think about the climate change and the science behind it. And then we recreate the kind of experience of listening to the data and receiving the data into more performative way. So that was my before before coming here. I had this very strong energy and exciting energy from the students and faculty members. Now I'm doing this kind of extended Gossip with Wales project that I created, co-created with artists and ONC and the university.

1:22:26 You're so interested to fully stage it because I think Dwight said that I was at the I did my residency when there was a pandemic. Right. Little pandemic, little global pandemic. And the initial project was to stage a performance with immigrants community, Filipino immigrants community in Victoria. There was a pandemic. So we migrated into Zoom and one of the former deans of the University of the Philippines saw it and said, let's bring this to the Philippines and recreate.

1:23:06 And now we're having a new iteration of our gossip with whales. The four songs are still there. We added one more composition and there's poetry now, there's choreography. There are five scientists who are coming together, weaving in and out to the story to be part of the storytelling of this new production. Yeah, very nice. That is so cool. We're going to dive into that in just a second. But I just wanted to kind of ask part of a few questions. You mentioned you were born near the sea before moving to Tehran to do your university career. How did growing up in your water shape your artistic identity before you even knew you want to be a sculptor?

1:23:57 Well, growing up near the sea, I think it created a lot of curiosity about the unknown, both because sea, ocean, all the time it was kind of mysterious space for me. And as as I started working with the art from early age, I all the time imagine in three dimensional aspect of everything. So sea and ocean all the time, it was kind of mysterious place for me. Yeah, I can imagine that's a kind of a cool thing because there's so many just different things underneath the water, very different various shapes and branching out and you know, corals and so forth that have all these different shapes.

1:24:45 I think it would be it would be pretty cool to Stephen have that in your imagination. Now you've described before like thinking through your hands as a central, essential to your early sculptural practice. Can you explain how that connection still influences your work today? Yeah, I started working with materials when I was told and it was so surprising for me working with materials I spent time working with my hands because all the time I think material surprised me during the work because sometimes it it it it bonds and you can change it.

1:25:31 And sometimes it holds you and it gives you a new idea about the work. And later when I studied bachelor of sculpture at the University of Tehran, I learned more how the sculptures can be related to creating the space, how you can activate the space and how you can create the space that the people and the viewers can come and look around and walk around your work and get the feeling about this three dimensional aspect of your work. Very cool, very cool. At some point, you were introduced to bio art during your undergraduate studies. What was it about that intersection of biology and art that first captured your attention and thinking like this is going to be something that I really wanted to.

1:26:23 Bio art was really interesting for me because it gave me a new insight about the data, the new data that can that they could use in my work, especially about the hidden world in biology, which was surprising for me when I learned about the biology and art and how they can engage and how knowing about the scientific data and how can I show them as a specifically in the sculpture because my bachelor's work was about creating larger sculpture of neurons in the brain. So it gave me new forms. It gave me a chance to bring new kind of form in the sculpture as well.

1:27:12 Very nice. Very nice. You've explored the brains neural networks before in your art and later compared the brain to the ocean. So what parallels do you see between like the memory and human mind and the mysteries of say like the deep sea. The first time that I started thinking about the team of memory in the brain, I didn't know that what aspect of it is more interesting for me. I just try to learn more about the function of memory in the brain, how it can be possible to store the memory in the brain. And when I learned about neural network and how all of the synapses and how and how all of those connections work together to create what we call memory, something clicked for me that everything is about the connection.

1:28:11 And when I thought about later when I thought about the ocean, I think I brought that perspective with myself because the network was really interesting for me. The connection was really interesting for me. And then I thought about the ocean as a heat in landscape and I saw I thought that the brain and the ocean, all both of them, there are complex system and they have the heat involved. So I tried to kind of discover those heat and bolts and make some connection between these. Love it. That's awesome.

1:28:52 What were you I asked Dennis the same thing. Can you give us an example of a sculpture that you did right before working with ONC and then a sculpture you did after the I know you're just completing your fellowship. So I don't know if you've already created or finished creating those sculptures. But can you talk a little bit of what the sculptures look like beforehand and as compared to like during your fellowship. So my for my master degree at the University of Victoria, I focused on the idea of the water management system in Iran. The form of those water management system. It was thousands of shafts and tunnels, which I all of them inspired me to creating kind of infrastructures related to to the memory.

1:29:41 So all of those forms led me to think about how can I make the place for the memory that place for for the memory. It was kind of tunnel shape that can be create a space for flowing the memory because for me, memory is not kind of the fixings. It's it can be changed. It can be constructed during the time. Love it. I'm going to go to back to Dennis and and when you first when you were doing your fellowship, I know it was over covid. So not it wasn't all in in in person. But when you had those initial meetings with scientists at ONC, what was your first thoughts like in terms of hearing what they had to say and like what type of questions were you.

1:30:37 I was really excited because it was yeah, it was covered. We need connections and I knew it's going to be really an another school for me. I always wanted to you know collaboration for me is also interdisciplinary because it excites me to just be in this unknown space. The no ability of theater making is so important for me because I don't want to I want to build on the work that I'm doing, but I also would like to explore something that I have not been able to explore in the previous work.

1:31:18 Right. So I so raising questions, critical questions based on the previous work is a is an important method for me. So I I was asking about, yeah, representation, like because, you know, when when we think of art science, science, art, hybridity, it's always there's also power in that right because science has a lot of resources, the scientists they have because of the research they're doing. There's so much of value in terms of materiality. And when we engage with our science and we're always working with our students, interfacing, it seems that there's always we always run into bringing arts to communicate science themes. I wanted to theorize that I wanted to really know that when we come together, what's the next theory that we can engage in terms of knowledge production in terms of advocacy work.

1:32:24 So there is this kind of hierarchy needs to be also challenged, right, when we are hybridizing. So it's not a it's not a transdisciplinary work that I have this question and I'm going to use a certain field to answer my question through my original field. It's two disciplines coming together, blurring it and really navigating the in between this of this two world. So, yeah, the questions around representation that it's not just about communicating the themes of science but also communicating the themes of art and really propelling both powers so that you have one connected power.

1:33:17 How did you find the people you met with for moments like the scientists and engineers and so forth? How did you find they reacted to that type of idea and theory of these two fields, you know, merging together and creating something new? You know, I am so generously gifted by the intelligences and the expertise of these people because I know that when we engage with interdisciplinary work, it's it's a scary thing. Right. Oh, and see, I remember, oh, and see, is always responsive and always giving to our lost nest. I'm also kind of lost. Right. And there are certain gaps that I really don't know what I'm doing here.

1:34:11 But you know, the scientists because they they're very solid with their practice and they're willing to, you know, share their method also. And I realize, oh, wow, we somehow I think carbon also share this that there's we share we overlap with the same method because it's it's so I have received the greatest generosity at that time during pandemic from the scientists and artists. Yeah, worked. Do you incorporate some of the reactions and some of the feelings that the scientists had in your work? Like, did you notice like, you know, whether it's like excitement or curiosity, did you incorporate that into?

1:35:27 Yeah, yes, you know what I realize during that residency is the lesson of humility, both artists and scientists are you are confronted with big questions. And maybe you can answer them like climate change, like how do we really confront this? Like, one of the concepts that we talked about during the time was this kind of concept of we could probably get problems like it keeps on eating. It's very complex problems. And I kept on studying this wicked problems because I realized that I also have to understand this, this concept.

1:36:18 And I realized that, oh, I think that because this concept is also about managing you can only manage because it keeps on repeating. Now I realize that, hey, we also have to really transform this weekend problems. We should not stop receiving that this is wicked. We have to transform it. Right. So this is my current understanding with it. But part of this desire enthusiasm to solve this wicked problem is that we have to transform this. We can problem is great humility. That's why we have to collaborate because I can't answer it. Yeah. Dwight, as Dennis is speaking, I see this excitement on your face and this nodding as as Dennis was doing his fellowship.

1:37:04 You know, what were your feelings around the work that was the outcomes of the work that that were that were presented in front of you and in front of like his audience and so forth? I would say it was all very mysterious to me because Dennis would he would go off and then he'd come back. He said, oh, well, we have a string ensemble that we're working with or we have a poet. Actually, it started with a poet who is who is writing to Nagas. And I had no idea what to Nagas were and I thought, OK, that's interesting. And later I actually tried to write some to Nagas because I was inspired about this.

1:37:52 Nice. And so then the to Nagas somehow he had this mysterious process with the the the composer and the lyricist. And the I don't know all the people he was working with. And and to me, it was very mysterious because we were all separated. You know, I was working from home. And in fact, the whole gossip was with Wales. Everyone was in their own homes. Right. Right. And it all got combined together. So and I would say I feel that same sense of mysterious curiosity about parvents work.

1:38:37 Yeah, we'll have our weekly meetings and I'll say, oh, part of it. Is there something you want to share? And then she'll pop up on the screen these latest things and talk about these experiments that she's done and these new materials. And it's a very, very kind of like an alchemist. And it's a very, very, very interesting process. Right. There's it. It's within the curiosity within the mystery of these layers. It's so cool. Part of it when you when when do I is talking about you experimenting with new materials from a sculptor's point of view when you're trying to, you know, look at new concepts, just like, you know, looking at memory through water.

1:39:27 And I think that's interesting with a new material and where does that curiosity come from? It's like, oh, I'm going to work with this type of metal or I'm going to work with this type of maybe it's a plastic of some sort or, you know, a cable, like we mentioned earlier. What's it like for you to really start thinking about using a new material to get a specific message like, you know, water networks across? There's very interesting aspect of working with material, especially as a person who make who create a sculpture is that I'm not a stick to specific material. I try to get the new idea and spend time with the idea and realize that each material can be feet and can be engaging with that idea to release what's behind the concept.

1:40:23 So what I did during my residency was that I spent time with the meetings with the scientists and with all of the samples, footages, images, and I try to collect all of those data and spend time indulge with them and then select which part can be which which material can be a fit with that concept. I really enjoyed specifically with my residency because I think it was the first time that I really found the exact material with the data that I collected.

1:41:05 I learned a lot. I learned two new techniques during my residency. It was my first time to work with them. And most of I think I really enjoy. Yeah, is there, you know, it's kind of funny, like when I when I think about what it's like when I'm trying to make it analogous to to like a scientist, it's like when you're first learning a statistical program, where you're trying to learn how to, you know, put out a new instrument or learn about that new instrument. There's always a learning curve, right? When you when you learn and sometimes that learning curve is very frustrating, you know, depending on your patients of the individual. I know for me learning are in graduate school. It was like the statistics like in this program was very challenging to a lot of us in grad school.

1:41:53 Is there a challenge? Like, are there those challenges when you're using a new material in, you know, because like there's such a like I can imagine and then this is me coming from looking from outside in and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But like when you're when you're envisioning using a new material and then trying to figure out like this is how I want it to be displayed. But then you realize maybe it can't be displayed because it's not bending or saying how do you overcome those challenges? Actually, it was really hard for me, especially, especially for one of the techniques about the electric it was a bit scientific and I haven't worked with electricity or something like this before. I had more than 10 maybe, maybe about two weeks, a trial and error to fix some of the problems, because it was my first time to learn about the new technology. I had to get the tools and work with the electricity and it was challenging, but I knew that I have to fix it because I wanted to make this work. It took time, but I could solve it.

1:43:06 Yeah, no, that's amazing. Now during your fellowship, you shifted from focusing on human memory to exploring non human memory in the deep ocean. So how did the hydrothermal vents inspire the shift? I remember that for the first time that I saw the video of hydrothermal vent, I felt like they're like bodily archive of living system. So I think that they are alive because they rise. They breathe the minerals to the ocean. They collapse and they change over time. And it's not that they're alive.

1:43:50 It's the powerful aspect of those structures. They are like chimneys, but I think they're alive. So the perspiration of the minerals, it creates very tall chimneys. So the layering of those minerals, it's really related to the memory. It's not separate maybe of our memory. Maybe we cannot see the chimneys in our brain, but we can see it in the ocean. Wow. Wow. That's so cool. I guess like when you look at the fellowship, like what piece of the fellowship or like the project of the fellowship did you create as part of it? Like what did you create and how does it affect your evolution of your thinking?

1:44:44 I think it's starting the structures of those chimneys really helped me to think about how can I push the idea of just making the objects, right? Especially when I had a series of meeting with the scientists and we spoke about the vents, not just as a specific point or just solid.

1:45:41 Or separate chimneys. So it was a very specific moment of my project because it helped me to create several fragmented pieces. And then I'm going to create a vast, a large installation of these pieces that later you can come and see, or I can send the pictures for the people who cannot see. That's terrific. Yeah, that'd be that'd be awesome. Dwight, as we kind of like look at this, as part of it is finishing up her fellowship and every starts exciting, every finishing is exciting.

1:46:23 What does like ONC hope that the fellows for this fellowship get out of the program when they leave the fellowship? Well, you know, in addition to learning about the science and learning about how science organizations work and you know, science, tech and, you know, developing some of those connections, some of those relationships with people within our organization. I'm also really hope for our fellows to get involved in the scholarship part. So Dennis was talking a little bit about this.

1:47:10 You know, what can what can art and science working together come up with in terms of, you know, new ways of thinking about problems, maybe new ways of thinking about wicked problems, maybe new perspectives and what can this synergy bring that would that will benefit not only the science, not only the art, but will benefit our society. So I'm always encouraging our fellows to get involved in the in the research and in thinking about the theories and in maybe writing something, co authoring something and maybe doing some some experiments, some research projects, getting embedded with a big science project in the future.

1:48:01 That would be just awesome. So yeah, I'm seeing this not as a, you know, not as a one and done. But yeah, this is the start of who knows what could grow into within the, you know, the personal path and practice for each artist. Are there I know it's hard to say now, but are there opportunities for future collaborations with artists who have come through the fellowship program? Well, for sure. And so Dennis and I, Dennis has invited me to be part of at least meet with the people as they create this new production in the Philippines.

1:48:45 So if we can figure out the time zones. Yeah, and part of in part of his fellowship is coming to an end, but she will be early career co chair of a session on art and science at the ocean sciences meeting in February in Glasgow. Oh, fantastic. I hope she'll be there. Yeah, I expect she'll be there to help share that session to present her work. And you know, to get involved with what's to come. There's so many so many wonderful opportunities that we can create together. So yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Now, Dennis, as you know, you're hearing this, obviously, parven has got some some plans after as the fellowships is ending and you know, you're hearing this, you know, the fellowships is ending and some ideas. Do you find that the fellowship has really expanded your career in terms of the thinking that you've been able to do the theorizing you've been able to do and now this production that you're putting out.

1:49:53 Do you see yourself continuing this path where you're intersecting art and and ocean science in particular or climate science in particular? So only also because aside from the joy of collaboration and the joy of finding new ways of doing things in terms of artistic creation. There is a bigger task really for me and that is the you know, the social pedagogy that comes along with it, the kind of responsibility that we need to forge in, you know, making things change. We have to make a breakthrough with climate injustice.

1:50:44 This this, you know, when we are starting our yeah, before coming here back in Winnipeg, there's a forest fire that I've experienced and smelling. I smell it, right? And also there's darkness and you know, one o'clock p.m. It's so dark. Yeah, it's about so weird. And then coming here doing an artist residency with the artist, we have two typhoons coming together. There's kind of a co weathering of two typhoons. We are haunted. It's it's lived whether in Canada or here in the Philippines.

1:51:28 And I think that there's so much things to really do in terms of generating this kind of collaboration to make breakthroughs to stop the injustices that we are experiencing in this world. So it will it's a commitment. It's a life commitment. It's no longer about, you know, creating one artistic work after another. I've shifted. It's now when I was really starting with my career, it's I was just busy creating one project after another.

1:52:12 But right now I became I realized that I wanted long process. I want to really engage with my method. And I'm no longer bi-narristic about it, like the you rehearse and then you create the show. What if the process in itself is a show and my audience as my collaborators, we are also audience of our own work because we're learning from different disciplines. And then we become embodied and live with the things that we are. We are performing the lessons that we're getting from our process in our everyday life. So it's no longer kind of a dichotomy. You know, maybe I could stop with my thought here.

1:52:56 In Bali, when I did my fellowship in Indonesia for seven months, I went to Bali and you know, the Balinese people, they don't have word for art. They don't even work for artists because every day is an artistic work. So if you are a barber, you're probably a musician too. All right. So there's this kind of a lived experiences of this, the science and if you're a dentist, probably you're also a mask maker. So there's this, yeah, yeah, they mass. So some my theory is colonialism really categorize everything this thing, right.

1:53:40 And we need to combat that as well. Yeah, yeah, very interesting. Parvin, how about yourself when you envision, you know, after this as you're finishing up your fellowship, you obviously have this installment that you're working on. Do you see, you've been you've been working with art and science for a little bit now. Do you see this as being, you know, just another step in the journey of exploring, you know, your, your journey within art and or the intersection of art and science? Absolutely, because it was my first time to collaborate with the scientists. I didn't have a chance to work with scientists during my bachelor for the by worth. But this time it was really surprising for me when I had sessions and meeting with the scientists and when I talk with them and I saw that how much we have in common in our conversation.

1:54:37 And it was it opened up a lot of I think new insight for me for my future project as well. Love it. Now, for all start with Parvin, then we'll ask Dennis. There's going to be other fellows, you know, I don't know when the next fellow is going to become, but there's going to be another art fellow. What would be your advice as someone who's just finishing up to the next fellow that comes in from from an artist point of view? I would say that bring a huge curiosity by yourself and open up a lot of questions because I found ONC very responsive about all of the questions, especially the question that I had. And I had a really great experience working with them because it helped me to expand my experiences and expand my horizons.

1:55:33 About how the art and science can intersect and how I can work in that intersection. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And Dennis, how about yourself? Yeah, I think this is an opportunity to make sense of your humanity as well, you know, because you're working with people who have dedicated their lives into practical thinking. And I am and I am amazed with the commitment, a commitment of the scientists to provide a kind of a world making right. Because when when we think of science and arts, it kind of separated. But somehow it echoes also to to me that this kind of deep, deep commitment to make things change.

1:56:31 Right. So I think that one should capture that desire for change and transformation. I saw that from working with Juniper and Dwight and such a beautiful theater to observe that kind of commitment to their craft. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Dwight, final question to you, as you know, you're probably maybe looking over applicants. I'm not sure who's coming in next or what that person might be. What would be your advice for any person coming in through this fellowship? Any artists when they when they arrive and they do this fellowship?

1:57:17 Yeah, you know, I just want them to, first of all, feel at home within our organization, find a landing landing place where they can feel like they belong, feel part of the team. And then, you know, as, as parven said, and Dennis, you know, bring your full curiosity and bring your questions, bring your ethics, bring your world changing. Bring your big ideas that maybe we didn't think about because we were so stuck on the data management system and the technology. So you're going to be able to help us, you know, crack open some things that we didn't know we could. And so you're going to be an important part of that.

1:58:10 So I want them to feel that they're, they're really valuable and that they belong and what they're doing is really matters. It's very important work. Absolutely. What a great way to sum up this interview. I want to thank all three of you for joining me for the work that you do and that you continue to do in the future work that you're going to be doing and really challenging our thought processes and thinking about how, you know, the environment is interacting with us, how we interact with the environment in a lot of different ways, not only just from an environmental point of view, but a social justice point of view and just like an economic point of view as well.

1:58:51 And I think it really challenges us. So thank you so much for all the work that you've done and continue to do. And I want to thank you for joining us. Love to have you back on and discuss more more art and science intersection. Wonderful. So glad to be here with you. Thank you so much. Thank you Parvin, Dennis and Dwight for coming on the how to protect the ocean podcast today. It was great to have you part of our surfacing secret series. And it was just really great to explore how art and science really connect. I just love hearing your journeys and showing us how deeply art and science can intertwine not just communicate ocean science, but to heal, connect and reimagine our relationship with the sea.

1:59:34 I love that fact. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our show notes for links to their work and more about Ocean Networks Canada Art Science Fellowship. And if you have any comments, I would love to hear them. Just put them in the comments below if you're watching this on YouTube. And of course, if you're listening to this on the audio version in your favorite podcast app, please feel free to connect with me on Instagram. DM me at how to protect the ocean. That's at how to protect the ocean. And of course, you can always connect with me through our website. www.speakupforblue.com forward slash contact just fill out the form. It'll go right to my email and I will respond as soon as I can. I want to thank Parvin. I want to thank Dennis. I want to thank Dwight for joining us on today's episode.

2:00:17 And I want to thank Ocean Networks Canada for just providing so much great content for not only this podcast, but also for you to hear what they're up to each and every year. I just love it. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host Andrew. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.