Everyone in the Tent: How Ocean Treaties Actually Get Made

0:01 Tuna conservation would be nowhere without the right tools to make sure that we are fishing them sustainably. today on the podcast, we have Holly Koehler, who is a policy expert For the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation, ISSF, she is here to talk about how policy plays a critical role in. creating protections for not only Tuna but other fish as well. She has been involved in policy for quite some time, and she's gonna tell us a little bit about the history of how she got into policy, how she had like a science degree and got into this, and then how it kind of like some of the stories of all this policy work that she's been able to do. It's pretty exciting.

0:44 Like I have to admit, I'm not a I'm not a policy like crazy guy, like I don't just love it. but it's kind of cool, like it's really interesting all the stories that she has. She's a great speaker. It was great to have her on. I could have talked to her for a number of hours on it, and I can't wait to have her back on one day to be able to talk more about her work because she's just been involved in so much, and you'll hear it in the interview. And that's what we're gonna be talking about on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. This is the podcast where you find out all about ocean news, whether it's tuna or fisheries or marine mammal conservation or anything science and ocean conservation related, this is where you are going to find out what is up and what is the mainstream and what you need to know Monday to Friday every week. usually an interview on the Friday and then solo episodes on the Monday to Thursday to prepare you for that interview.

1:30 ~ but yeah if you like this kind of stuff, why don't you just hit subscribe or follow whatever podcast app you're listening to this on and you don't miss the next episode. So that'll be that'll be great for me because it helps me, you know, get more exposed to other people ~ who might not get it, whether it be your contacts or anything. it's the podcast algorithm. It's complicated, but it allows me to get in front of more people, the more people that subscribe or that follow, whichever one you're on, whatever podcast app you have. I think most of them are follows now. I think I don't think they're subscribes anymore, but most of them are follows. So follow if you like and we'll get right into it. So Holly ~ came to us through the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation. they're always great. I always love the information. They've done so much work tuna, especially, but it's not just like the in the field stuff.

2:15 It's not just with fishers, it's with the entire supply chain. they've advanced tuna conservation and fisheries conservation and management so far, just by working with the entire supply chain. So not just fishers, as we like to blame all these fishers. They're working with fishers. Fishers are working with them. They're working with processors and fishhmongers and supermarkets and all these other places that sell tuna so that they can look at every part of the process and make sure that it's done properly so that we have sustainable tuna fisheries all over the world. And we had Susan Jackson on earlier this year. She talked about how, you know, the the last year we saw such great numbers in terms of like 99%.

2:56 of the tuna that were caught were from sustainable fisheries last year. Today we're gonna be talking about policy with Holly. Holly is the policy expert for tuna. She's been in policy as I mentioned before so long and she talks about her history with the ISSF and and policy and how that has helped bring us forward. especially with the way that ISSF works with the entire supply chain, how it's helped in tuna conservation. And I just thought it was wonderful to be able to have her on and to bring you this information. Here's the interview with Holly Koehler talking about tuna policy over the last few decades. Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after. Hey Holly, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about the exciting topic of tuna policy?

3:43 Well, I'm very excited. I'm very pleased to be here and looking forward to having a fun conversation with you about tuna today. Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this because I feel like we have hit the jackpot in terms of tuna. I feel Holly, you're like the OG of tuna and management and I think we're in very good company here to really get a sense of you know how tuna was managed previously and how tuna is managed now and how that policy has changed and just really going into the stories around policy in general for tuna and I think it's kind of a stuff things a topic that we don't talk about often enough, but it's such an important part of conservation that I think today's Hm.

4:28 gonna be a lot of fun to talk about that. But before we get into all of that, Holly, why don't you just let the audience know who you are and what you do? Okay, yeah, well let's see. I've been working in tuna for almost thirty years. ~ I started as a ~ intern in Washington DC first at an NGO and then with the State Department. And then I went on to work at the State Department in their Office of Marine Conservation doing international negotiations for tuna management and some other species until 2012 and then I moved on to ~ ISSF and back into the NGO world.

5:13 So I started working with an NGO ~ that's ISSF ~ works with ~ companies and you know, the supply chain and so we also work across all of the different spheres, whether it's vessels, flag states, other NGOs or ~ processing companies. And I started working for them in t 2014 doing policy and outreach. So I kind of started the NGO world, went into the government world for a while and now I'm back out into the NGO world. But the common thread has always been international fisheries management and primarily focusing on tuna.

5:53 Now what first drew you to international fisheries policy? Because I'm sure I can ask you this and you'll probably say it's a surprise, but like that's not when we think of getting into science and marine and ocean science, we don't think about policy when we're younger, you know, like doing our courses and everything like that. What first drew you into international fisheries policy? Well it was really kind of serendipitous. I mean I'm in from the Midwest. I grew up in Michigan and I went to school in Ohio and then Indiana and then in my graduate program I was doing ~ public policy and one of the things I could do was either write another paper or do an internship and so I ended up deciding to do the internship route and ~ I was doing comparative international policy as a coursework and That was I thought that was very interesting because you know, this not something that, you know, most people don't have a lot of experience with how intern you know, when you think about the international realm, especially a farm girl from Michigan, I didn't have any experience in that and I didn't even really know what does that mean. And so I found that that coursework really interesting, but I really wanted to understand more practically how did it how does it happen?

7:12 What do you do? What does that mean? ~ how is it accomplished? And so I ended up going to Washington DC and I worked with a NGO at that was called the Center for Marine Conservation at the time, but now it's called the Ocean Foundation. And in that internship that summer I worked on sea turtles and sea turtles was my first sort of understanding of resources that are shared. So Mm. they don't read maps, they don't respect boundaries, they move around and they migrate long distances and as a result they run into a lot of different types of gear. They run into a lot of different vessels that are flagged to different countries.

7:54 And so how do you manage them? How do you protect them? And you do that through international cooperation. And through that internship I met people at the State Department and it sort of just kind of canniballed from there. So you know, it started in coursework but was really you know, really built on and really ~ activated through having some practical experience and really trying to understand how do you in practice accomplish these things. And it's not so simple as just you know saying we should do X or we should do Y. You have to work with other countries and you have to collaborate and you have to compromise to ensure or do your best to conserve these resources that are moving throughout our world's oceans.

8:41 Yeah, for sure. And I think it's really important that you kind of brought that up because like when people think about ocean conservation, they often think of like scientists or fishers or even like advocates, people speaking out on certain policies that have been put in place by governments or maybe outdated or maybe new ones that they don't agree with and so forth. They probably don't picture international negotiations, you know. So like why are these like those meetings so important? Okay. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, there's a lot of you know when people think of it fisheries or marine science, they you know, think of big vessels and people in scuba gear and things like that and ~ cool pictures of sharks and whales, ~ all which all is great, but ~ if you're these international negotiations, these meetings that are taking place and oftentimes very boring hotel ballrooms around the world are Yeah.

9:39 ~ you know or windowless rooms in the UN in New York where I spend a lot of time or in the FAO ~ in Rome. ~ is that's where the agreements happen. I mean that's where the countries get together. The countries that have decided that they want to work together, ~ and in cases of ~ the different regional fisheries management organizations, as I know we'll talk about a bit more later, or legally bound themselves to cooperate, ~ that's where they get together and they sit down and they work out how do we do this? And they agree that they will do it.

10:21 ~ you know, whether that means they agree to stop fishing at a certain time or they agree to use a certain type of gear that is less damaging or catches less bycatch species like sea turtles or sharks. that's where the rubber hits the road for lack of a better term. ~ and without that all the individual countries would be operating in their own. And so it's without that cooperation, without that getting together and sitting across the table from one another and really hashing it out. we wouldn't be able to accomplish what we are accomplishing internationally for highly migratory species, for those species that roam around and don't read maps and occur across thousands and thousands of miles in many different jurisdictions.

11:11 Now, you know, you've probably accrued a number of different skill sets throughout your time and doing different negotiations, different countries using potentially different tactics to ~ you know, get the best agreement for fisheries, for the ocean, for conservation, and of course for the State Department and so forth. What would you say for in this audience there's a lot of early career scientists and potential, you know, international negotiators and fishery policy analysts in the future. What would you say is it was like the biggest skill that you use pretty much all the time that you acquired over that time that people could work on now? I think it's it would be listening.

11:53 ~ Yeah. you know, I mean and I you know, they always you know, you read these like books on, you know, getting to yes or getting past no and all this sort of stuff and it's like ~ you know, your EQ or your emotional intelligence. ~ I think being able to listen to what they're what they mean behind what they say. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, you know, one of the things that we would say was where you stand depends on where you sit. So it's like you know you have like you have some countries will they'll start out saying X but if you've been around enough and you pay attention enough and you listen to the other word choice, you know that what they might really mean behind that X is they're signaling their flexibility or they're offering you something or they're tying it to something else.

12:55 And so you have to listen and pay attention to those connections and be willing to also sometimes you have to pick your moment also when you say like okay I'm willing, you know, who's gonna blink first? I'm like, okay, well, what if we offered this or what if I think I'm hearing this of in what you're saying? And ~ I also chaired a lot of negotiations in my time and as a chair, that's a huge skill to have is really hearing the interests behind the words and knowing when you can offer us a compromise or a solution and when how that's gonna land and is it the right moment to do so and when to kind of press the room on something and when to hold back and wait.

13:45 And a lot of that is learned through experience. It's not necessarily, I mean I'm sure there are you know classes and things that can teach people that, but I was very fortunate in my career ~ to work with some really incredibly gifted and ~ experienced negotiators at the State Department. I was able to sort of learn at their knee for many years ~ before I was the one in the front row. And so I was able to pick up a lot on how they were successful and how they accomplished what we needed to do and what they were hearing versus what I was hearing and filing that away for the future.

14:29 Awesome. One of the things that I think is also a great skill to have is to hear acronyms and really understand what they are in Ha ha. a lot of places. And, you know, with TUNA and and TUNA Fisheries policies and looking at that, there are quite a number of acronyms that you and I use all Hm. the time. And sometimes like, you know, when I do this podcast, I'll say, you know, say RFMO. Right. Like that's a Mm-hmm. common acronym that a lot of people in our in the industry understand. But, you know, if I'm speaking to a general audience who are not familiar with that, it can get a little complicated. So I just have to ask, since we're getting into tuna policy, ~ can you like when we hear, you know, things like RFMO ~ all the time, like what exactly is an RFMO and why should anyone outside the seafood industry actually care about this?

15:17 'Cause when I mention it to family and friends, they're just like, I don't even know what that is and like how is that important? Yeah. Yeah You know what I mean? sure. Absolutely. No, and it happens to me too. Ha ha ha. still. So an RFMO a regional fisheries management organization. So it is and then ~ the reason for those to exist in the world is because of a framework treaty that was negotiated and it was there's UNCLOS and then part of sorry UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. Yeah. And then as a part of that there was an implementing agreement that implemented certain provisions of that treaty that dealt with highly margatory species and straddling stocks. So again those are the stocks this fish and stuff that swim with fish ~ that either exist throughout many jurisdictions It's highly Mm-hmm.

16:15 migratory or straddling, which are like you know, Cod and some other ones which were on either side of one or two boundaries, the high seas and then say like Iceland or, you know, the EU or Canada. ~ so, you know, UN Conventional Of the Sea, you pulled out of that the management of those kinds of fisheries. And then there was a new treaty that was adopted called the UN Fish Stocks Agreement. And that agreement, ~ Provided the normative framework for cooperation internationally.

16:57 And the duties of flag states and the duties in these international or you know international organizations. So how do you give effect to that cooperation internationally? What does one do? And that give rise to this idea of these organizations, these regional fisheries organizations that would be treaty-based. And so what that means is that countries that become party to them, like ICAT in the Atlantic or the Western and Central Pacific Fisheries Commission in the Western and Central Pacific. they have legally bound themselves to the provisions of that treaty and those treaties lay out you know a whole set of things ~ how they're structured you know what their geographic scope is ~ what they cover? ~ what kind of decisions they can make?

17:48 how they're gonna arrange themselves? are they gonna have subcommittees? are they gonna have a science committee? are they gonna have an in-house science committee? how are they going to monitor the effectiveness Of the measures they adopt? How are they going to slice up the pie? They have allocation structures. ~ and who can join? They have provisions on who can join, and if you want to join, how you have to go about it. And there's a whole many other things. And those treaties ~ cover, nearly all of our oceans when it comes for tuna anyway. And then there's a whole bunch of other ones that cover non-tuna species. And there's like one small there's one little small area in the South west Atlantic that isn't covered by an RFMO.

18:32 But almost all the entirety of the ocean is covered by these organizations. ~ even in the Southern Ocean you have ~ one that covers the krill fisheries and other types of fisheries in the far southern ocean, you have one in the Arctic Ocean, and then you have these others that some of them kind of overlap a little bit but they cover different species so they don't have that's not a problem. ~ and, you know, all the major countries that either border these RFMOs ~ or are fishing there from far away. so you have distant water fishing nations, so say like Japan fishing over in the Atlantic. That's way far away from their coastline, but they're considered Mm.

19:16 a distant water fishing nation. And whereas the countries like the Pacific Island countries that are coastal states, they're coastal states and they border these RFMOs. They are all of the ones everyone who has an interest in that fishery is encouraged to become party to it. And then once they're party to it, that's when we have these international meetings, that's when these decisions are made on how to manage the resource and manage the, you know, bycatch species or other things that are found in that region. Interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. And it's such a structured area and it covers so much area that it's really nice and a lot of different nations like so there could be like multiple countries who are part of one RFMO.

20:04 Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly. So some of the RFMOs have like forty five countries that are party to it. And yeah. And so some and some have and some, like in the Indian Ocean, the number of developing countries in that that are party to that far exceeds the number of developed countries. And so Interesting. that also creates other aspects of, you know, conditions in how those resources is managed and the need for capacity building and the need to help support countries who may not have the same capacity to collect data or monitor their fleets in the same way. And so they need some and so there's elements of of support that come that flow through these bodies as well.

20:48 So like the overall mission of each of of all the RFMOs is to protect fisheries and to make sure that it's it's managed properly. But even within each RFMO, there's unique aspects to the organization that are catered more geographically and like you said, like the looking at developed versus developing ~ countries and so forth and what species overlap with what. So who like if there's two RFMOs, there are different species that are managed by the RFMO and so just to make sure that everybody is clear on the goals, Mm-hmm. but it could be unique at times depending on the geographic region and what's unique in that area, correct? Yeah, yeah. I mean I think ~ you know, they all have their own culture and the I mean Yeah.

21:32 and their own, you know, and that and how they operate and when they have their meetings and but the overall goals are the same in the sense that at least from a tuna standpoint it's to conserve and manage these highly migratory species and they have ~ you know sort of different objectives sometimes like sometimes it's like you know maintaining the populations between maximum sustainable yield and sometimes they're not as quite as that specific. Some of the older ~ RFMO treaties have been updated over time, so like in the Eastern Pacific and Atlantic, when they were first negotiated the treaties were very lean and they didn't cover some of the more modern provisions like dealing with what we call non-target and associated species. So you know your sea turtles, your seabirds, they were really just focused on managing the fish.

22:25 But as Right. time went on, it became clear that that wasn't enough, that it really had to manage the ecosystem. So they Mm. updated their treaties to include provisions that gave them that mandate. and some of the RFMOs continue to refine themselves over time. You know, they look at their provisions and, you know, look at ways to improve their effectiveness. And a lot of RFMOs have gone through sort of performance reviews where they look at themselves and say, Okay, well these are some things or have outside independent people look at them and say, Okay, we could do better in these different areas. ~ But you're right, I mean the main goal of all of them, whether ~ any of these are whether they're tunas or non-tunas is international cooperation to ensure the sustainability of the fisheries under their jurisdiction and also the ecosystem in most cases.

23:20 So the things that are caught up in those fisheries. Well see, I think that's a really important point because I think a lot of times and may have bit used to been this way, where people assume that fisheries management is all about catch limits and like so quotas and things like that. We a lot of times we hear, you know, in the public, these are the quotas and these are the catch limits, and you can't catch more than this because this makes sense based on all this other data and this other science. But there's a broader goal too, as you kind of mentioned, it's not just about catch limits for one species or multiple species, it's the broader ecosystem. Why do you think that gets ~ confusing to people and the messaging out to I'm gonna say general citizens, like they think that Mm.

24:05 catch limits are one of the only ways. Like why do you think that there's a bit of a confusion in that aspect? Or is it just because that's what used to be talked about and it's changed since then? I think it's probably in part just because there's just not as much knowledge about how the complexity of managing the multi-species fisheries, like particularly again tuna, you rarely catch just one kind of tuna depending unless you're very you know, in very specific places and using a very specific type of gear. ~ and I also think that like a lot of your your average person, you know, is probably more familiar with things like their rod and reel and, you know, what goes on in recreational fisheries or something that's local, True. Right.

24:48 right? You get a license and I can have a bag limit and you know, I gotta be this long, you know, that kind of thing. ~ and so I don't think there's anything really wrong with that. You know, that's what the great thing about like podcasts like this are, like getting out that information, that the complexity and the diversity of the tools and also the applicability of these organizations, they're not just about how much you can catch. They're also about what is the impact of the catching on other things and can we mitigate those negative impacts, you know, on whether it's seabirds or, you know, some other part of the ecosystem. One of the other things I worked on in the State Department ~ was what we called high seas discrete stocks.

25:36 So bottom fishing, bottom trawling type of fishing but very damaging to certain things. And one of the things I worked on at the UN when I was chairing the fisheries ~ negotiations there was kind of a landmark agreement on how to mitigate the impacts of bottom fishing or bottom trawling on vulnerable seabeds. And because what was being damaged there, the fisheries were fine, but it what was being damaged was the seafloor or the corals. And some of these corals are older than the pyramids. I mean that's how long they live and how slow they grow.

26:20 So this idea that you can't just smash through this stuff. You have to be careful. You have to have rules. And so that was a you know that was a step function change in international management of that particular type of seamount fishery. ~ And we're seeing that evolution in these tuna RFMOs as well. I mean, as I said, there were some treaties that just really focused just on the fish. That was all they did for years. And now there's a whether it's through evolved recognition of the importance of the ecosystem, or whether it's public pressure, whether it's all of these things, market pressure, there's a realization, understanding and now action to do more to protect these other species that are associated with these fisheries.

27:10 Now, ~ one thing in my mind that I will never forget, okay, that I will always picture and I'll always have it in my head, ~ and it has to do with policy, ~ was when the high seas treaty was finally agreed upon. And there's a video online and it made the news and unfortunately I forget the woman's name, but she was chair of the committee. She put her gavel down in the final sort of agreement that everybody was you know agreed upon. They had a number of countries that agreed to it. And tears kind of flowed down, you know, as like it was a very emotional time for many of the people, the negotiators from various countries.

27:53 And it was so emotional as you know, because it took so long to put together. And this was a huge treaty. It will eventually change the game in terms of a lot of different things around the ocean. And it kind of tells us that, you know, international negotiations is can be frustrating and a slow process. Like a slow, frustrating process as shown in in that video, where to achieve something as huge as that is monumental in the future. And to be a part of something like that is absolutely phenomenal. And there have been a lot of big policies over that time, whether they're national or international.

28:35 The Magnuson Stevenses Act in the US has been huge, Marine Mammal Protection Act in the States, the Fisheries Act in Canada, where I'm from, has been monumental. ~ and I just want to know, like, you know, it can be but when progress happens, you know, what does that actually look like in this world? Like when a policy comes into place, and even though like the high seas is probably early on in telling how that's going to be successful or even non-successful in the future. But when you've been part of a negotiation that has been slow and frustrating, what does progress look like, you know, after it's been agreed upon? Like how do we judge that? How do we evaluate that? Especially in the early years.

29:17 Mm. let's see, that's an interesting question. Like I mean 'Cause I've been involved in both the adoption of policy instruments like a measure, ~ you Mm-hmm. know, and I've also been involved in the adoption of treaties, ~ like the and so when you actually like what you described for the high seas biodiversity treaty, I've been involved in, you know, where you've spent years and years working on little bits of text and having it all knit Yeah. together in the end and have everyone that's been involved in that sitting around the room agree and no one says no or I decide I don't want to do it anymore.

30:02 ~ so I mean I think what success looks like ~ in both of the theme in both of those two experiences that I've had is where, It can be very difficult and slow and you have to make compromises, but the goal is to get something that is strong on the one hand, and everyone who really needs to be inside the tent is inside the tent. They Mm. agree to it and will implement it and ratify it in case of a treaty or ~ implement the measure for conserving, you know, sharks or sea turtles or whatever it is.

30:42 And there are some delicate balances there. Like you don't wanna push so hard that everyone's in the tent that you end up with something that doesn't really accomplish what you need to accomplish. And it's finding that and that's where those really delicate negotiations come down. I mean in some of the ones there were some things that I was involved in with ~ this other treaty that I it was for for non-tuna's ~ the South Pacific RFMO ~ where we had a set of countries that ~ had very different interests and also had there was ~ a lot of kind of baggage to put it back a letter of a better word behind some of the positions that these countries were taking.

31:27 So finding the trade-offs seems like getting something that would work for one set of countries but then maintain some of the stronger positions that you needed in order for the entirety of the treaty to be a strong one in a certain couple of particular areas. And it takes time. You can't just arrived there overnight. It took years of building relationships and sitting in rooms and playing around with forms of words and sometimes just the order of paragraphs just enough to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, I mean, it seems crazy to people that haven't been in it, but it can be it can be that ~ way.

32:07 and so that I think when, you know, kind of what success looks like to me is like if you're able to find that sweet spot where you whether it's a measure or whether it's an entire new instrument where you accomplish something that's meets most of the objectives of being strong and effective and moving forward a little bit more in terms of how to ensure you know science is implemented, the fisheries are well-monitored and there are consequences for breaking the rules, which are sort of the three pillars of setting up these kinds of measures, and you get everybody in the tent.

32:48 Then I think Yeah. Then just you could be pretty pretty good feel pretty good about that as a success. I think that's a good measure. I think there's a lot that goes into it and it's not obviously not as easy as it sounds to make that's why you're mentioning all these things and especially making sure everybody's in the same tent. That I think that's a really good point. Now one of ISF's recurring messages is that governance matters just as much as the fisheries practices. And I think ~ some people will ignore the governance as they don't know a lot about the governance. So why like what does ISSF mean by that that governments is just as important as the fishing practices. Well what ISSF means or what I would mean say I that we mean ~ is that you know governance is essentially the structure that we all you know that you operate under under. It's like you know, I mean I have a background in anthropology and it's like governance is like what civilization is based on, right?

33:48 Right. I mean if you don't have rules and laws and you know, as a set of principles that we all agreed that we're gonna live by and if something goes wrong you have a place Mm-hmm. to go and you have someone who will help you redress that issue or Mm-hmm. you have a process that you can ~ rely on that this is something this is how things will unfold. That what governance is. And if you don't have that, then you know, it kind of goes back to what I was saying before about why we need RFMOs, because otherwise it's just sort of a free-for-all. Like Yeah. Yeah. you could how would you manage a fishing practice? Every different country would manage it individually, but those vessels are not just staying in that country, they're going out and beyond their country or they're going and they're fishing in someone else's country zone because they're allowed to or maybe they shouldn't be allowed to ~ or no one know they were there.

34:45 So it's like you need that governance. You need to have rules, you need to have certainty, you need to Mm-hmm. have a process, you need to have a way of saying okay this is how we will develop our policy. This is how we will get together and talk about our policy. This is how we will adopt the policy and this is how we will know that the policy is working. You need to have that structure in order to have that an effective means by which to manage a fishery and the fishing practices themselves. Yeah, I completely agree. Having that almost that central area where the way I think of it too, it's like when one area does really well at something, they can share it with others.

35:30 It gets transposed because everything's connected, which is nice and it's not just being independently run. And I think that's really great. And plus I feel like a lot of those RFMOs, if a country has a conflict in that fishery, they can come together and help negotiate those conflicts, right? And help get over those conflicts, which I think I really like. And I think, you know, Yeah. there's a lot of stuff when we talk about fishers, 'cause a lot of people will focus on the actual fishing practices. And, you know, Mm-hmm. there's all these different gears that come out. We've heard obviously not for tuna, but like of trawling and the damage that can done. And then with tuna like long lining and then pull and ~ fishing and then FADs and like fish aggregation Mm-hmm.

36:12 devices and so forth. So like people often focus on the gear being used and how that needs to Mm-hmm. change. But that's not just the only thing that needs to happen. So like why isn't gear alone, like changing gear alone ~ help why doesn't it just help improve sustainability? Like why do we need more than just changing gear? Well, I mean, I guess so yeah, so ~ because you can change your gear but you might still catch so I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish, right? Like Right. if gear changes are to address An issue with that gear, like it's lost or it entangles things or it catches things it shouldn't catch, or ~ you know, something of along those lines, then those are kind of gear modifications address one set of problems or issues.

37:04 And then you have other like sets of issues. If you want to control how much fish is being removed from the ocean, then there are other tools in the toolbox like management. areas or closures or ~ limits on the use of certain gear because that gear can result in large catches all at once. And so, you know, there really are a suite of things that are necessary to ensure comprehensive management, addressing potential negative impacts to the ecosystem or to specific species or marine pollution. And then the fisheries management itself, controlling the actual removals ~ to maintain a healthy stock.

37:52 And so you need multiple pieces of management tools to accomplish that. And there isn't really a one size fits all, and there's not really a silver bullet in doing that. And that's why you see different RFMOs, different regions using different mixes of management tools. Like in Eastern Pacific, for example, they have a full closure for a certain period of time. And that's to reduce the amount of fish that's being taken out of the ocean to keep it within sustainable science-based limits. But in the Western Pacific, they have limits on the use of fats certain prime times of the year. And so they don't have a full closure. ~ So there's just different tools based on the regions and the objectives that they're trying to accomplish.

38:37 Interesting. Now, one thing I fell in love with, one of the reasons why I fell in love with the ISSF is the fact that they focus a lot on ~ transparency and accountability, which I think Mm-hmm. in any kind of fishery, especially dealing with tuna, it's such an important aspect, right? We need to know what goes behind all the science, what goes behind all the policy and everything like that. For ISSF, like what does that actually look like focusing on transparency and accountability? Like, what does it look like in practice? Well, we have a lot of things, tools that we have put in place and have created to support transparency and accountability. And the transparency and accountability at their basic, you know, essence are you know being open about what you're doing, what you've committed to, what you said you're going to do, that's transparency. And then accountability is showing that you've done it.

39:30 And if you haven't done it, what you're gonna do about it. And ~ in that ISSF's world, you know, we have a number of we have the participating companies that we work with, the processing companies, they are audited annually. We have public compliance reports of their implementation of The ISSF conservation measures. So you have transparency, public accountability, all in one. You have they're audited and those reports are public. We have similar for the vessels. We have these two different lists, and vessels that are on those lists are audited for each of the different columns that you know, different sustainability commitments, and that their grades, their scores are then public. And this these are tools for the public.

40:22 for market actors, for NGOs to see if you know these companies or these vessels are implementing what they say they're going to be implementing. It's the transparency and the accountability together in one package. Yeah, that's really interesting. Now, how does better data and transparency actually change like behavior on the seas or even from a supply chain? Well, the more you know about what a vessel is doing, the more you can see if it's implementing the kinds of things whether it's because it's required under an RFMO or a national government, or it's something that the supply chain is asking for.

41:03 I mean, there are a lot of retailers and, you know, big companies like Costco and Walmart that have specific things that they want to see in their supply, they don't want to purchase and put on a shelf something that does not meet a set of sustainability commitments that they have made as a company. And so the more you have transparency and better data at that vessel level or the harvesting level that flows through that supply chain, the more that companies and others that have made those commitments can actually say, Okay, I feel confident that this is I'm able to stand behind this product because it does meet my own sustainability commitments that I've made.

41:47 And more and more companies that are doing that those kinds of things that have public ~ seafood sustainability commitments beyond tuna the you know shrimp or whitefish or ~ other things. ~ and then but in order to ensure that they're accountable to their own sustainability commitments, they need data and they need better visibility into their supply chain. Yeah, no doubt. I think that's really interesting. Now with that said, ~ you've worked on tuna for quite some time. What have you like where have you seen the biggest improvements in tuna fisheries over your career so far? Well, I guess I would say that a greater focus on and actually action in addressing ecosystem impacts.

42:36 ~ when I first started in the tumor world many, many years ago, most of the conversations in not exclusively, but most of the conversations in these international meetings are really focused on you know, conservation of the tunas or how much tuna can we catch and who can catch them and what gears can catch how many and ~ there wasn't as much focus on the potential impact of certain gears like fads or the impact of longline caught tuna on other species. And as the science has evolved and shown that there are certain mitigation measures that would really reduce the impact of certain gears on these species, or that you could design the gears differently so they are less likely to entangle things or less likely to pollute the environment.

43:37 And those have been adopted. And those have you know, there actually has been progress in changing those measures or adopting new measures to address that wider set of ~ impacts. And I think the other thing that I've seen is there's a lot more interest in what's going on in those meetings outside of the typical original sort of actors. When I was first starting on this, it was always, you know, governments and industry and a few NGOs that were involved. And you could probably name them all on one hand. Yeah. And you know, it was always the same sort of you know, we had this a lot of the same ~ individuals or ~ personalities and groups.

44:17 And ~ but now, you know, there's a lot more interest in what these international governance bodies are doing and there's an interest from big companies like retailers like I mentioned. There's interest by ~ other types of organizations like social and labor or crew safety ~ organizations. there's a lot more focus from the world, the community on these organizations and I think that's in some ways driving some of the progress in some areas, like because it's no longer kind of an echo chamber of just the same folks working to adopt focus on the tuna and the catching of the tuna.

45:06 There's a lot more interest from the wider world to say, I demand more. I want you to do more. And I'm going to ask for it and I'm gonna watch you and see if you're doing it. And I'm gonna turn up at these meetings or I'm gonna send you a letter or I'm going to and the other thing I think was is the rise of some of these certifications out there, these eco-labels, ~ Yeah. that have put pressure on these organizations to accomplish specific things. because those eco-labels can be lost and those eco-labels Mhm. have value. Yes. Yeah, we saw that ~ not too long ago, I think it was a year ago, when some of those ecolabels pulled out of the lobster fishery in Maine, ~ because Mm-hmm.

45:49 of the entanglements in their gear with ~ North Atlantic right whales ~ th which are critically endangered. So yeah, and it definitely, you know, the fisheries union were worried at that point, being like, well, hold on Yeah. a second. You know, so it definitely makes action take place. Whether people agree with it or not, you know, it does it makes, you know, people Mm-hmm. were looking for these ecolabels to make sure that they see these ecolabels on their product so that they're Yeah. buying. So it's really interesting. There's been a lot of improvements which is great to hear and great to see that they're affecting you know, how some of these organizations and companies function, which is great. For sure. Now looking ahead, like what are the biggest governance challenges that still need attention today?

46:31 I think there are some gears that have gotten a lot of attention and continue to get a lot of you know, you talked about fads and certainly can always be in improvements there. ~ but I think there are other gears that have not gotten as much of attention. I mean I think there's still ~ a much there's definitely in a need to improve the monitoring equally across fleets. For example, for the large scale Persane fleet, which is type of ~ tuna fishing vessel, there's a hundred percent observer coverage in three of the four RFMOs. Those vessels have to have a person on board a hundred percent of the time. monitoring, you know, they fill out forms and they keep track and their reports are then used for compliance purposes and science purposes, ~ but then, you know, you have long line gears which have only a five percent coverage. And that's something that a lot of us NGOs have been working on over the last few years.

47:28 We have a ~ it's an area that really needs to be improved. And there's some challenges with doing that. I mean, these vessels are often out to sea for a long time. And then and but with the rise of technology, which is another one of those things which it's changed a lot in my lifetime in this world, is the increase in technology and the availability of technology to solve some of these problems you like electronic monitoring putting cameras on boats instead of humans you can use these cameras and ~ that's really gonna that's can really move the needle forward in terms of increasing monitoring because if you have more ~ equal monitoring you're gonna have better data from all these other fleets you're gonna have better ~ confidence that measures are being implemented it'll improve not only the science, but it'll also improve the implementation and effectiveness of some of these bycatch measures that I've mentioned.

48:22 I think that that still continues to be a big challenge. ~ ensure getting some getting rising the tide, you know, lifting all boats to have a similar kind of For sure. monitoring level. ~ And I think the other thing I think that is a governance challenge, which isn't really I guess it's not really a governance governance challenge. I think more could be done to explain ~ the value in those fisheries that are doing the right things, right? Like that's something like transmitting that beyond the world of us who live and breathe this stuff, but getting it out into the public and getting it out into people understanding the value of sustainable fisheries. ~ you see a lot of ~ a growth of a lot of labeling and different ways of marketing things and I think I can tell you I you know like at a cocktail party, you know, and someone will ask me, Can I eat this? Is this fishery okay?

49:17 Yeah. Yeah. I've had that. You know, can I have this? You know, I saw an article or I saw, you know, whatever about little kids living in Indonesia and they're peeling shrimp and that's horrible and I don't wanna be involved in that. How would I know? How would I know that this shrimp is okay? Right. Yeah. ~ and I think it's that kind of stuff. People there is definitely an increase in interest it seems Mm. to me more than it was used to be when I first started, for consumers wanting to know more about what it is and it's not just environment, it's also people. It's like how are people being treated and is it fair, Yeah. ~ for sure. Yeah. wages, you know, all that sort of stuff. And ~ I think getting those messages out more is another area that could be improved on.

50:02 Yeah, I love that. Now, ~ there's a lot of stuff going on in the ocean right now. And sometimes a lot of the times the news isn't that great. but each Mm. and every one of us who l work within ocean conservation, whether it be international fisheries policy, whether it be me in communications, we always find a little bit of optimism. So like I'm gonna ask you, what gives you optimism about the future of international fisheries policy? Like something that you are an expert in. Well, I mean, I think there's some of the things I've already mentioned. if I look back even five years ago, you know, five, six years ago, none of these big treaty organizations that we've been talking about, the RFMOs, had adopted restrictions on fat FADs, fish aggregating devices that entangle.

50:50 they had these long tails of netting Yeah. that would hang belong them, you know, fifty feet or something. And Right. they're all floating out there in the ocean. And there was science that showed that this was actually a huge form of mortality for certain types of sharks and other species. now all of those organizations have all banned netting. Hmm. they no longer can use those that netting. they have to use canvas panels or they have to, you know, secure things in certain ways. So so you've gone in that relatively in the you know, in the glacial pace that can be it can be of international negotiations. That's a pretty big win to go from, Huge. Yeah. you know Now, of course, you know, there can be arguments like are they doing it, and are they being implemented, Right. Of course.

51:34 you know, there's always going to be that piece of it, of course. But the fact that those were agreements were made by consensus in these organizations, and all of them, is a pretty big deal. ~ and so it gives you optimism that, you know, when presented with science and data and facts that this is bad, that we this should not be allowed. This is not something that should be this is not responsible. Change can happen. the other thing that fills me the optimism, more optimism is that I mentioned that there's more eyeballs on these organizations than their headb the past from a variety of different parts of the supply chain.

52:15 There's, you know, the markets, the retailers, those that are putting stuff on their shelves, to the processors that are buying the fish and putting it in cans and to, you know, just the average person, the public. I mean, there's a lot more articles and, you know, documentaries and things out there really bringing people's attention to the oceans and to some of the challenges. And that's giving rise to new generations of people that are demanding more. Whether it's more information or like I'm not gonna buy this unless you can give me some confidence that it has not had an impact on a person that's a negative or a sea turtle or whatever their thing is. is. And I think that the more global our world is, the more interconnected we all are, that is that and that through technology, that's really it blows apart these silos and some of these insular sort of smoke-filled rooms where things are being decided without any of that, no one really knowing what was going on in there.

53:17 And that's not really the case anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's really interesting. Like I said, there's always ways to find optimism and there's always changes that are happening and yes, sometimes they're a little slow, but they do end up going. One thing I always love when we first roll out a policy, I mentioned like the high seas, but I'm sure with a lot of other policies you can use as an example. It may not look great at the beginning or it may have some loops or some holes in it right at the beginning. But as we use it more and more, the big thing is that getting it there. and getting it passed and then being able to build on it as we get in the future and as we do a little adaptive management. You know, you see a problem arise, you okay, okay, there's a bit of a loophole, so we can close that loophole or you know, something we didn't foresee in the future.

54:03 So I think that's what gives me optimism around these types of policies. Same with like marine protected Mm-hmm. areas, it may not be perfect right at the beginning, Right. but at least it's designated and then we can build on it for implementation, funding, enforcement and Right. Exactly. And so forth. So I really love that. Now look, Holly, we have a little time. I'd like to do something with you. Do a little bit of a lightening round in terms Okay. of some of the stuff that's happened in your career or what people may think of ~ international fisheries management. So the first one is like, what's one Mm-hmm. misconception of international fisheries management? I think the misconception is that the high seas are unregulated.

54:44 Mm. okay. I like that. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you can't have internet How so? Like 'cause I 'cause I think there's like there's a lot for like enforcement stuff. It's really difficult. So Right. what do you mean by that? Well you still even see it now. You see sometimes you see articles or people speaking about like the lawlessness of the high seas. There's no like Yeah. there's nothing out there and it and that's just that's not true. I mean, yes, some of these organizations could be improved on. Absolutely. And as you said, you know, enforcement and ~ compliance and these are all things that can be improved and but it isn't that I think that's a big huge misconception is that that that there's a lot of kind of rampant activity that's unregulated going on.

55:27 I mean there are certainly is can be some illegal things, but that That's because they're illegal because they're not in line with the r adopted frameworks and regulations that are there. So that would be that would be one that I I continue to see periodically and I'm just like, it's just not true. Yeah. And you're like, wait a minute. That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are they perfect? No, but they exist. No. They exist. So ~ you know. Yeah. I like that. I like, I like hearing that. ~ what's one development in the last five years you're most encouraged by? ~ I guess I I mean again I'm it's all repeating myself unfortunately, but I you know, s some of the developments around gear modifications to address ~ known demonstrated environmental impacts. I mean whether it's from ~ the f the fads and that I mentioned with the nonentangling fads and g moving Mm-hmm.

56:19 to that and now they're even moving to biodegradable fads so so that they'll break down and and and not pollute the environment. I think that's a big one. And the other one is, you know, some of the ~ bycatch mitigation techniques to ~ safely release ~ animals from either the deck or n you know when they're hooked or when they be not even letting them get on board in the first place, keeping them in the water, bringing them back. And Yeah. Yeah. things like, you know, there's there's some critically endangered seabirds and some of the RFMOs have adopted some much stricter measures to try to address some of that, the impact of those of of certain gear types on those seabirds. And you know, this is like a situation where The solution is there to reverse the extinction of these seabirds and some of the RFMOs are taking they can do more, but they're taking steps in the right direction.

57:11 Yeah. Right. And that's that's a huge deal for me. Like ~ you know, when when we know what we can do and Yeah. if you don't do it Agreed. Agreed. that's pretty discouraging. But they are starting to move in that direction and and that direction of travel is there and that and so that's you know, that's a f s a a source of optimism for me and and and ~ encourage something that I'm encouraged by. Love it, love it. ~ what's one thing you wish more people understood about tuna fishery sustainability? that it's a process and it takes time. Hmm. Yeah. I think people get impatient. I mean, these are They hear about it and they're like, no, no, we just gotta stop it. Just gotta stop it all over it. Right. Gotta ban it, gotta stop it. That's not gonna happen. Yeah. Or why is it taking so long? Well, Yeah. Right.

57:53 you know, like I mentioned, like you have four forty, forty five countries sitting in a room once a year. Mm-hmm. The fact that they can adopt up to a dozen measures is is in one one meeting That's crazy. Yeah. is is a lot. That's pretty good. Yeah. But ~ I think there's the sense that it it takes time and it takes a i it is a process. And when you're working with you know, dozens of countries that come from different cultures, different languages, different ~ capacities, different development levels. It it takes time. Yeah, I can imagine. A last question for you. ~ what's one of your most memorable times like in a in a room negotiating you know, some sort of international agreement with fisheries?

58:38 ~ what's one of the most memorable experiences that you've that you've had over your career? gosh. that's a tough one to pick one. always say that someday I'll write my memoir and it'll be called Yeah. The True Lies of the Pacific because no one will believe half of the half of the stuff that I could tell you. I think one of my more memorable moments was well, it was in New York. It wasn't in it wasn't for a tuna negotiation. It was when I was chairing the sustainable fisheries resolution negotiations and we worked all night it was Thanksgiving, actually, ~ to adopt the resolution which was sixty one one sixty one one five for the bottom fishing bottom fishing pre ~ provisions.

59:22 And I was chairing the meeting and I had this one country that was potentially holding gonna hold stuff up and I went to them and I said I'm going to do this and I know that's not what you want. Mm-hmm. But I'm not going to ask you to agree to this. I'm just going to ask you to accept it. Mm. Because again, one of my other little mantras don't ask me to say yes and I won't say no. And that's basically Right. Right. what I did. And so then we got to the moment of truth and, you know, basically said, you know, can everyone live with this? Can is there anyone that objects to this?

1:00:06 ~ not does everyone accept it, but as and ~ they they didn't put their hand up and we adopted it by consensus and it went forward at like Amazing. nine AM on Thanksgiving morning. And wow. and it was like it was it was super intense because we had we just worked all night and every you know, there were so those were the moments where like the fact that you had spent time in the trenches with these with people, I mean, I'm still friends with people from that night, from those days. Like I I'm still Yeah. Yeah. friends with some of them in the sense that, you know, you kinda go through that with everyone. And I mean I had situations where I had, you know, delegations coming up to me and they're like, but I want this and I like, no, we're not doing that. You know, I mean I I you got to a point as a chair where you had to basically you had to direct it. ~ and Yeah.

1:00:59 and y you know, but it took weeks of getting to that point to where Yeah. now was the moment where I s I was like I I was like, We that's not gonna work and we're not gonna go there like so, you know and people kinda got to the point where they trusted you. They're like, All right, yeah, Right. okay. You know, you're right. And ~ 'Cause you weren't saying no to something, it's just it's not gonna be able to have it at this point in time, right? It's not gonna it w it would blow it you know, kinda blow everything up. Like we we'd Yeah. reach such a delicate place where everyone was sort of like had a little bit, everyone had a little bit that they could live with. Yeah. Yeah. And if someone got a little bit more, it would tip the scales and then the Right. whole thing could fall apart. And but it like I said, it takes so much time to get to that point where you Mm-hmm.

1:01:45 feel that you can speak plainly with people and they will trust you to k to to shepherd it forward and and get them get them through the night and that's what we did. Yeah. That's amazing. Holly, this has been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. You are absolutely phenomenal. Thank you. It was so much fun. we we had a great I had a great time as well. I wanna thank you for joining us and love to invite you back, talk more ISSF, talk more stories of international policy 'cause I'm sure sure. Any time. Yes. you have more. ~ but we really appreciate you coming on. It's been a pleasure. All right. Well thank you so much. It was such a a fun time, Andrew, and I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you about this and and I'm be very happy to come back and and share some more stories and and have another conversation with you.

1:02:30 It was it was a pleasure. Fantastic. Love it. Talk to you soon. Thank you. Thank you, Holly, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Wow. That was amazing. I loved every minute of that. Not only was Holly like an infectious to speak to, like she's just so like she's she's so positive. and and she's she's so passionate about the work that she does. She's had some great stories that she told us. ~ and it was it was great to be able to see how policy moves forward and how some like negotiations, although they're difficult, There's certain ways to go about getting the the answer that you want with a little bit of compromise, but to move that needle forward to in order to get what you need to get. And this is in the case in most cases was like tuna fishing policy. And I just think working with every part of the supply chain is amazing.

1:03:20 ~ Holly's amazing. The ISSF is amazing. And so I'm really happy that we're able to bring this interview to you because I think we need to know more about tuna, right? Tuna fisheries and seeing. what the latest things are happening because I think it has a bad name overall when people think about tuna fisheries. And but it's getting better as we as we showed you with the interview from with with Susan Jackson earlier this year. I'll link to it in the show notes. ~ but yeah I just think it's great. If you have any questions or comments or concerns about tuna fisheries, I would love to hear that from you. Just if you're on Spotify, you can comment and you can let us know. But also if you want to hit me up on my socials, Instagram, Facebook or TikTok or any of the others, the links are in the show notes. And of course, I'll link to the ISSF website ~ in ~ in the show notes as well so you can check that out for all the information, all the resources, because that's what we try and do here.

1:04:09 Provide a resource for you about the ocean so that you can make better decisions in your daily life in and around the ocean so that we treat the ocean a lot better than we thought we were doing before. So that's great. So thank you, Holly. I appreciate it. Thank you to the international Seafood Sustainability Foundation. We really appreciate you lending us, Holly, for the ~ hour or so that we actually were able to chat. it was great to be able to talk to her. And I want to thank you for joining us and listening to this episode ~ and to all the other episodes, Monday to Friday. Hit that follow button if you enjoy this type of content. And I want to thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I am your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great weekend.

1:04:49 We'll talk to you on Monday and happy conservation.