Inside the System That Makes a Seafood Label Trustworthy

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Somewhere between a fishing vessel
out on the water and a can of tuna

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on your grocery cart, a whole
hidden system decides whether you

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should trust what's on the label.

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It runs on audits vessel registries
and a compliance reports, like a bunch

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of compliance reports almost nobody
outside the industry ever reads.

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And it's actually the reason that the
blue check mark means anything at all.

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So all the stuff that goes through that,
we're gonna be talking about on today's

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episode of the How to Protect the Ocean
podcast, because it's something that's

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important for you to know, is all the
stuff that goes in is why you should

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trust that blue check mark or that seafood
label that's really, really important.

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And that's what we cover here on the
podcast, not only this episode, but

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we cover in all the others, is to
give you the breakdown so that you

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don't have that climate and ocean
anxiety that a lot of us have.

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I'm trying to give you the information
that's happening around and why you should

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trust certain things and give you the
story behind it, because then you can

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tell not only yourselves and kind of be
good, but you can talk to other people

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about it, your family, your friends,
your colleagues, so that they can feel

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the same way, where they don't have
this apathy towards the ocean because

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there's really nothing we can do to help.

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Like, we can do lots, and
there are lots being done.

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And then on the other hand, though,
it's not being communicated to you.

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So this podcast is what we do to
communicate that information to you.

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There's a lot of other people doing it.

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I try and do this on this
podcast each and every day.

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So, today we're gonna be
talking about seafood labeling

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and everything that goes in.

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Now, we're gonna start talking
about first is the RFMO.

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And you're like, "Andrew, this is an
acronym that I don't even know right

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away. Like, tell me in plain language."
So a Regional Fisheries Management

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Organization, it's a treaty-based
body where countries with a stake

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in a fishery legally bind themselves
to cooperate on how it's managed.

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So the RFMO may manage a number of
different fisheries, and certain

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countries may be a part of it,
and certain countries may not be

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a part of it, depending on the
fishery, like within the RFMO.

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And so these RFMOs are not
just within a specific border.

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These are beyond those borders, but
they have certain jurisdictions.

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So certain countries will
be managing along with other

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countries that have this RFMO.

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Because let's be honest, just like we said
on Monday's episode, a lot of species

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don't adhere to borders, like geographical
borders or political borders.

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They will adhere to the borders that are
set by the ocean and where they can go.

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A sea turtle can go a long way.

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Tuna can go a long way.

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And so we need to make sure that those
are managed properly and effectively

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so that if we're catching those
fish, maybe not sea turtles, but it's

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fish like tuna, we need to make sure
that we are managing them properly.

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So just think of these RFMOs as these
management organizations it's a body

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that manages a number of different
fisheries, but it's certain countries

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that are part of it and certain
organizations that are a part of it.

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So now they all meet in these
windowless UN rooms that we've been

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talking about in New York or FAO in
Rome, and oftentimes they're like

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very boring ballrooms around the world.

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So a lot of the major conservation
landmark deals and regulations and

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treaties have been done in these boring,
boring rooms in hotels and by people

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who are not on the water, and have to
be in these hotel rooms talking about

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this and negotiating this kind of stuff.

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But nearly the entire ocean is
covered by these RFMO bodies.

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There are 45-plus member countries
that are part of some of these RFMOs.

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And so the skill that matters most,
like the fact that there's legal

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expertise in the room, or there's certain
scientific expertise, it's the fact

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that there's like everybody's listening.

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Hearing what a country means
behind what it's saying.

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So where you stand
depends on where you sit.

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So making sure that you can tell
what a country wants by not only

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what it's telling you, but how it
acts before coming into the room.

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And so, like the governance,
it's not just paperwork.

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The person we're talking to tomorrow
has a background in anthropology,

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compares governance to what
civilization itself is built on.

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The agreed rules and somewhere
to go when something goes wrong.

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It's a document that you can go to be
like, "Okay, so if this happens, we

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can take this type of measures," or,
"You're not allowed to do this, and if

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that is done, then we have measures to
enforce that." The whole payoff of this

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whole thing is governance decisions
actually reach, like a dinner table,

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like they get to where you are involved.

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In the International Seafood
Sustainability Foundation's transparency

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and accountability model as an example,
is participating seafood companies are

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audited annually, compliance reports
are public, and vessels, the actual

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vessels are scored on public lists.

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And, like, so having
these audits are huge.

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And then the market power of this whole
thing is those eco labels, like the Marine

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Stewardship Council, MSC certification.

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It's not symbolic.

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They carry real financial
weight, which is why, like,

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losing one forces a real change.

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So the Marine Stewardship Council
suspended the main lobster fisheries'

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certification twice, first in August
2020, then in December 15, 2022.

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They were both tied to concerns
over North Atlantic right whale

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protection under the Marine Mammal
Protection Act and Endangered

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Species Act in the United States.

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So notably, the MSC's own auditors
found limited evidence the fishery

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itself was responsible for the
entanglements, meaning the suspension

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was as much about legal compliance
status as about on-the-water risk.

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So it's a matter of, like, are you
actually figuring out what's going on?

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Are you trying to make
the efforts to stop this?

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Now, a lot of these policies, like this
policy, this example in particular for

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the North Atlantic right whales, where
MSC pulled I guess their preference for

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it or their support for it was tied to,
like the mechanism of where now a lot

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of lobster pots and crab pots are now
ropeless or moving towards ropeless,

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and there's a lot of experimental
fisheries that are going on to there.

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And so not only with the
fishers, but it also goes with

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the consumer and the retailers.

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So retailers like Costco and Walmart won't
put something on the shelf that doesn't

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meet their own sustainability commitments.

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So transparency at the vessel level
flows all the way up the supply chain.

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So like as consumers, we are demanding
that the fish and seafood that is

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in front of us is sustainable, and
that there is somebody looking

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out for that, because we can't.

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All we see is what's in
the package in front of us.

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Sometimes we don't even know
what fish it is because the

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package is just showing a filet.

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And for those of us who don't really
know what a fish looks like, it's

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very difficult to tell whether this
is the right fish, whether it was

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caught sustainably, how it was caught.

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We don't even know if it's right or not.

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There's apps to tell us, but we have no
idea, and the person behind the counter

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a lot of times doesn't have an idea.

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But you get that blue check mark from MSC,
and you can say, "Well, they know how,

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and I can go on their website and look it
up, so I know exactly what's happening."

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So I think the important thing
is, is like the people who say

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that they're selling, that are
responsible for looking after tuna.

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So an organization called the
International Seafood Sustainability

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Foundation, which we had the president
of ISSF on a number of months ago,

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Susan Jackson, who talked about how
there was 97% of the tuna that was

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fished last year was sustainable.

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97%. And the only reason why they
couldn't do the others was because there

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was one fishery by the time they made
the report, hadn't been tallied yet.

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But, they're responsible
for looking after everything.

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They're not the ones that are
actually do the certifying.

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They're not the ones
that do the certifying.

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The certification is a MSC, the
Marine Stewardship Council function.

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They're like the third body auditors.

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So the ISSF works with the tuna
supply chain from vessel all the way

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through, like the processors, the
fishmongers, and even into the retailers.

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And they make sure that everything will
meet the MSC certification standard.

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So they're like the behind
the scenes, all this.

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You don't even know about them
if you're eating tuna because

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they're not there to certify.

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They're not there to say
that everything's certified.

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They are there to make sure
that the supply chain for

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tuna fishing is done right.

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It has a clear science-based
roadmap and timetable to get there.

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And so that's what's really
important when we look at this.

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So you have organizations that
are there to meet those audits.

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And even within ISSF.

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There's like independent
third-party audits.

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They're not ISSF grading its own
homework, like its own things.

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The assessments are conducted
by an outside auditor.

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So MRAG Americas is one of
the auditors that they do.

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And then there's the Proactive
Vessel Register, one of four

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public vessel lists ISSF maintains.

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That publishes vessel-by-vessel
compliance with specific conservation

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measures using a plain color code,
green check for implemented, red

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check mark for not implemented, and
a circle for pending verification.

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And seafood buyers are named
as a primary user group.

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So this is all done behind the scenes.

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In an annual compliance report as of
November 2024 update, participating

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companies scored a 99.1% compliance
across 33 conservation measures covering

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things like product traceability,
catch data submitted to RFMOs, and

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shark finning and bycatch policies.

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That's 23 companies total, 17 of
which met all 33 measures fully.

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Now, this is all new, so the companies
are starting to get on board.

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But 17 out of 33 already met it
fully, and then some of them were

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just like a little bit off, like
they just didn't meet all of those

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requirements, but they met many of them.

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So it's not perfect,
but it's getting better.

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As these vessels are going
through, it's getting better.

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And I think that's an important
part of this whole system.

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You have MSC that does a certification
that gives the consumers and the

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retailers the confidence to say, "This
is sustainable." The MSC goes back

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and looks at the different fisheries
and they say, "We have to go through

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the entire supply chain to make sure
that this fishery could be certified."

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So who's gonna give that to us?

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There are organizations like ISSF that
work with the fishers, that work with

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everything within that supply chain,
so fishmongers, the processors, and

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all the way through, so that when they
present the materials to the MSC they

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can say, "Yes, it's great." Now, I'm
gonna say there are some MSC-certified

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fisheries that some people do not
agree that should be certified, and

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so there are conflicts within that.

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It's not perfect, but
a lot of them are good.

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And so having this type of system allows
us as consumers to be like, "I have more

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confidence in buying this fish with that
blue check mark than anything else." So

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I think it's important that even though
there's some stuff that is all done

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behind the scenes, like what ISSF does,

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the ongoing, like unglamorous, like
granular work, auditing companies,

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tracking individual vessels,
publishing compliance numbers nobody

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outside the industry is gonna read.

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And then MSC turns that underlying
evidence, plus its own independent

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fishery-level science assessment
into a single blue label a shopper

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actually sees in the seafood aisle.

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Neither of those pieces
work well together.

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Like the compliance data buried
in a PDF doesn't reassure anyone

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standing in a grocery store.

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You're not gonna read that as you're
standing in line buying the food.

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And a label without credible
verification behind it is just marketing.

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It's just greenwash, blue washing.

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But the both together, that trust and
those systems together really make it

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important, and I think that's really good.

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So having the RFMO, the Regional
Fisheries Management Organizations,

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helps a lot of countries look after a
single fishery or a number of different

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fisheries within those organizations,
and there could be up to 45 plus.

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It's the mechanism that turns, "We should
manage this fishery responsibly," into

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an enforceable multi-country agreement.

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And then you have the eco-labels
that function as economic leverage,

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so losing one can force a fishery
to change practices even when the

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science on actual risk is ambiguous.

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Like just like the Maine lobster fishery.

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And then you have the ISSF and
the MSC that do two different

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jobs that only work together.

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It works well.

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ISSF generates the audited ongoing
evidence, and the MSC turns the

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evidence into a single label a shopper
can actually recognize and trust.

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Neither one replaces the other.

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They work combined.

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It kind of goes towards like, hey,
consumers, a lot of times we don't

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trust what Seafood comes down to.

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We don't trust the
sustainability claim on its own.

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This is why I'm telling you this story,
is to kind of give you the background

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of how the tuna fishing industry
works and how the labels make sense.

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The idea is like, you need, as
a consumer, to feel confident.

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Now, whether this episode helps you
feel confident, that's on you, I'm not

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here to convince you that you should
feel confident for that blue check mark.

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Like I said before, not all MSC-certified
fisheries are agreed upon, and not all

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RFMO fisheries are in perfect shape.

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There's still some problems
out there, many problems.

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Even the tuna industry has some
increase in compliance to do, as I

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mentioned, just with the boats and the
76% compliance of all the different

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measures, the conservation measures.

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The point is, and this is like
been the theme this whole week, is

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that it's a step-by-step approach.

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They're getting better.

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Processes are being put into place to
ensure that things are getting better.

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Observer coverage, FAD management,
all these different things.

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FAD is a fish aggregating
device, by the way.

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So all these things happen.

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They don't happen overnight, but
they happen in time, and they're

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happening pretty rapidly compared
to what it was like two decades ago.

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And so again, it's a
step-by-step approach.

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The sooner we start, the faster we get
there, and we get there with a process.

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So I kinda want to just go through
all these different things this week

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before we head into our interview
tomorrow with an ISSF representative,

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who is absolutely phenomenal.

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You are going to love her, if any of
you have seen me drop some of the hints.

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She may not be very well known as
in like a Sylvia Earle or a Jacques

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Cousteau or Fabian Cousteau or anything
like that, but she is very well known

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within the public policy circles.

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She's been around for a while
working on some major negotiations

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on some, landmark treaties and
things like that and policies.

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It's been an honor for me to be able to
interview her, so I wanna give you that

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same respect for tomorrow to be able
to say, "Hey, you know what? I'm gonna

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listen to this, 'cause this is gonna
be amazing." She's a wonderful speaker.

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You're gonna love her.

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So check that out, tomorrow's episode.

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If you don't wanna miss it,
just hit that follow button

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and you'll get a notification
when that comes live tomorrow.

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But I wanna thank you for joining
me on today's episode of the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast, because
this has been an important process.

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And to be able to tell you what's been
happening and giving you the stories

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behind each of these policies, not to
say, "Hey, there's a policy here," but

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really giving you an understanding
of how these policies work and how

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difficult it is to manage, this has
been an absolute honor for me to do.

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And I'd love to hear your
thought on this type of style.

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Hit me up in the socials,
TikTok, Instagram, Facebook.

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All the links are in the show notes.

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Or if you're on Spotify, you can
comment, which is a great feature.

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I wish other podcast apps
could do that as well.

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I'd love to hear your thoughts on
this new, or you can hit me up on

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LinkedIn as well under Andrew Lewin.

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But other than that, I wanna thank you
so much for joining me on today's episode

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of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Enjoy the interview tomorrow
with an ISSF representative.

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And until then, my name is
Andrew Lewin, host of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Have a great day.

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We'll talk to you next time.

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And happy conservation.