The Power Shift Changing Ocean Projects in Canada

0:00 For decades, indigenous communities were often asked one question when a major project came through their territory: Do you approve? And today, many indigenous nations are asking a different question: Why don't we own part of it? This is the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, your weekday ocean news update. If you care about staying informed on the ocean every single weekday, Monday to Friday, hit that follow button right now on the podcast app that you're listening to, so you don't miss tomorrow's story. Earlier this week, or actually last week, I had the opportunity to moderate a panel on indigenous leadership in ocean technology at a conference called H2O in Halifax, Canada. Wonderful conference. We had a great time, and this panel was wonderful.

0:42 We talked to Ken Paul from Pokiok Associates. We talked to Barry Stevens, who's an engineer. He's got an engineering background. We talked to Richard McLennan. He's not indigenous, but he works with a lot of indigenous communities, and he owns a energy company. And interesting is, while the discussion was focused on ocean technology, one idea kept coming up over and over again, ownership. Not consultation, which a lot of the times, we'll see on major projects here in Canada, was to say, "Oh, there's a consultation process." Not consultation, not participation, ownership. Today, I wanna talk to you about why that shift matters and how it's already happening across Canada and what it could mean for the future of ocean conservation and ocean technology.

1:26 And, to be honest, just conservation in general across Canada. For a long time, major development projects in Canada followed a familiar pattern. A company would develop a project. That project would be announced. Governments would get involved. Then indigenous communities would often be consultants somewhere along the process. Now, when I say consulted, sometimes they were just told that it was happening. Sometimes even if they were consulted, the project went on anyway, even if they didn't approve. A lot of injustice has been happening in Canada against indigenous communities. I am not indigenous. I am still in the learning process. I'll just give you a little background of terms of when I was young, what I learned about indigenous people. All we learned when we were in elementary school, when we learned about it, we learned about the wars that they had.

2:09 We learned about the brutality. We learned about the quote-unquote savagery. We never really learned about the sophistication of the culture. We never learned about the religious nature of the culture or the fact that they were one with environments, one with the land, one with the water, and how sustainable they were. We never really learned that. Well, that has changed a little bit now. To be honest, when I was younger, I didn't even know about residential schools, and that was huge issue even when I grew up in the '80s. So there's a lot of stuff that happened, including even today, where indigenous communities are quote-unquote consulted, but they don't necessarily have a say. They're told about a process, but they don't always have a say. There's a lot of nuances in the types of treaties or ceded land.

2:50 Some of the things get so complicated, I don't even understand how it all works. I'm still learning how it all works. Sometimes the consultations were meaningful, which is great. Other times it looked like it was gonna be a protest and a lot of the times it was a standoff. But the structure was largely the same. The project existed first, the conversation with indigenous communities came later. And what I heard during this panel was something different. Increasingly, indigenous nations are looking beyond consultation. They're looking at ownership. They're asking, "If a development is happening on our territories, why shouldn't we be partners?" Think about have that flips the narrative of like, hey, this pipeline's coming through or this oil and gas, or we're gonna drill in this area, but you're not gonna get any of that money, to switching it to be like, " Why shouldn't we have equity in these projects?

3:38 If they're going through our land, our land is going to pay for the consequences. We should have the ability to pay for cleaning up that land or paying for that land to be sustainable or paying for the messes that these companies make." ' Cause let's be honest, a lot of these companies will go through indigenous land and whatever that category may be, and they would ruin it, and they wouldn't have to pay for it, depending on the agreement, they may not have to pay for it. Now, the question's like, why shouldn't we have equity? Why shouldn't we have governance authority? Why shouldn't we help shape the future of these projects? I think that's a really important switch. When I heard that, and Ken Paul said that on the panel, I'm like, that's really interesting. Case in point, in, uh, Nova Scotia, there's a seafood company called Clearwater, a pretty big seafood company.

4:18 And at this point in time, as I record this, Clearwater's owned 50% by Indigenous people because it's on their land, the processes happen on their land, it happens in their territorial waters. These are really interesting times where First Nations are saying, "Hey, we should be a part of this, and we have the ability to be a part of this." And I think that's a really important switch in how we are discussing what happens. And it was really interesting 'cause, like, when Ken Paul said that on the panel the other day, I was like, wow, that is an interesting way of thinking of things. And I think what's nice about hearing that is, like, a lot of the times, people will assume that First Nations don't know what they're talking about. They go in assuming that outside influences are better, they can educate.

5:01 That's not true. More and more Indigenous people are educated in the different technologies. They're educated in how the land works, especially when it comes to natural resources like fisheries or forestry and so forth. And so they know a lot more than a lot of people give them credit for. And so when people come in and try and build these relationships or tell the Indigenous communities what they need to do with their land, it doesn't work anymore. That's not gonna happen. Indigenous people want sustainability on their land. If you're gonna work on their land, one, they want financial sustainability, but they also want environmental sustainability. They wanna be able to dictate what they can and cannot do on the property, on their land, so that they can live there for generations and generations in the future.

5:43 That's their land. They own that land. They were there first, and they still have that land. And I think that was really a, key thing, and I think that's where the audience of the, like, when we were watching this panel, really kind of really perked up, being like, "Oh, this is new." 'Cause a lot of companies that were there were energy companies, telecommunication companies, and I think a lot of them kind of perked up and was like, "Wow, okay, so this is how things are changing. The landscape is changing. The, what Indigenous communities want is changing." And I think it's for the better for Canada in general. And I think that's what's really important because as much as they've been through, the Indigenous communities have been through with residential schools and the oppression and being left out of conversations and being talked to after and talked down to and treated like crap, there's a lot of resilience within these communities, and there's a resilience to be one and respect land, water, and ocean, and air.

6:35 It really is, and it's incredible to be able to hear these panelists speak and how important it is to them. A lot of times when things are proposed to them, they make decisions based off of, is it good for the community? Is it good for the environment? And does the community and the environment benefit? And as I sat there listening to the discussion, I realized that this wasn't really a conversation about technology, but it was a conservation about power and how power is being taken back by the indigenous community on their land, and they just want what's right for them. And this isn't just a theory. It's already happening. We're already seeing this across Canada. One of the best examples comes from the ocean itself. In 2021, a coalition of Mi'kmaq First Nations acquired 50% ownership of Clearwater Seafoods, just like I had mentioned.

7:20 Think about that for a second. This wasn't a benefit agreement. This wasn't a consultation process. This wasn't a company seeking approval. This was ownership. One of the largest seafood companies in North America became half-owned by indigenous nations. That changes the conversation because ownership means influence, and ownership means long-term revenue for these communities. Ownership means a seat at the decision-making table. And Clearwater isn't the only example. Across Canada, Indigenous nations are increasingly becoming equity partners in major projects, energy projects, infrastructure projects, resource projects, transportation projects. The model is evolving. And I think this is where Canada benefits.

8:02 Because now, because of the culture and the respect that Indigenous people have for the land and the sea, and the fresh water, of course, we're gonna start seeing projects managed properly. We're not gonna just see greed being taken over, and that those projects not managed for sustainable environment. And I think that's where the benefit really comes. There's a lot of major projects happening in Canada that are proposed for Canada, pipelines, oil and gas development, mining. All these things are part of this new world order that we're seeing because the US is adding unfair tariffs and things on Canada. Canada has to change because the US is our biggest trading partner. Prime Minister Mark Carney is changing the landscape and developing all these projects, so we are an oil and gas nation, unfortunately.

8:46 And so our oil and gas is a big part of our economy. So now if we can develop this economy to go to the west and go to the east through pipelines, we can make a lot more money, I guess, is what's happening. But unfortunately, in the past, the way things were done things were fast-forwarded. When it goes through Indigenous land, Indigenous people have the say. And a memorandum of understanding that was signed between the province of Alberta and the federal government, and Alberta is where most of our tar sands live. That's where they're extracted. The memorandum of understanding says that the Indigenous communities where these pipelines are gonna go through have to have final say whether they can go through or not, and that's gonna come with this equity, come with this demand for sustainable living and making sure that these projects are environmentally safe or as safe as possible.

9:30 And we're gonna see what happens with that. We're gonna see if that is true, and we're gonna see if if these decisions are made for the environment as well with that respect. Who knows what's gonna happen? But I feel a lot better about it now that Indigenous people are going to be demanding equity, which means they get influence, they get seats at the table, and they get a say. I think that's really important 'cause these communities have been talking about how important the environment is to them, their culture, their history, and their future. Like with fisheries, with Clearwater, It was a landmark deal. Ocean management's gonna get better because, again, the sustainability aspect of it. And of course, it's gonna connect to, economic development, stewardship, and then also, like, ownership. What that's gonna mean for the future generations of fisheries?

10:11 So if they own 50%, they can make decisions on where they get their fish from. So fishers will have to obey their rules in how they get those fish coming in. That could be a good thing for the environment, for the ocean, which I'm looking forward to seeing what's happening. But I guess what I'm gonna ask you is, like, what changes when a community goes from being consulted to being an owner? I think that's a really powerful thing. I often see on podcasts You know, a lot of different podcasts where people are gaining ownership, and especially on podcasts from Black creators I've noticed in the US, where they go from not just selling their rights and their IP of their podcast to these networks and stuff. They keep the IP, and they kinda lease out their IP for a certain time, but they keep the ownership, and they talk about how ownership is really important to them.

10:55 Because ownership, they have the decisions. They're not controlled by a company, by a network of a podcast network. Or, like, if they're in the music industry, they want ownership because the music industry, we know how bad they can be. Or, if they own businesses. Like, you know, you see athletes, A lot of the podcasts I watch are athletic. That's why I'm mentioning this. I've seen podcasts about podcasts, and these are Black creators who are coming out and owning podcast studios and masterminds, and the ownership is important to them. Because when they have ownership, now all of a sudden, the economics are in their favor, the decision is, making is in their favor, and that's important. And more and more people are learning that ownership is really important for them and their future and their sustainability in that future.

11:36 Because you have different incentives when you're an owner. You have different governance structures. You have different accountability when you're doing that. And I think that's something for me as this podcast, How To Protect The Ocean, I find that because I own the rights to the IP. I've never sold it to anybody, I've never had anybody take control of it. I get to control what I talk about. So what I feel that it's important for you to know for whether it's science, whether it's conservation, whether it's, like, job hunting, whether it's how people are being treated within the science and conservation, ocean science and conservation world or even the broader science and conservation field, that's important to me to have that control, to remain independent. To retain that ownership of what I could put on this show.

12:16 'Cause I can change it up. I can go one episode a week. I can go one episode a month. I can go to five episodes a week or seven episodes a week. One a day if I choose to, if I have the time and I have the energy to do so. And I think that's important to me. That's important to me because I think it's important for the audience to have that ability to make sure that I'm not being influenced by anything. I'm having people on that I think are amazing, and I think that's great. I wanna continue to have that, where I'm talking about subject matters that I think is really important. And I think that's really big, especially when it comes to rights holders and stakeholders. Even just that, the differences in those names, I've talked about it before. Ken Paul, he was on another panel at World Ocean Summit, and he talked a lot about how there's stakeholders, and there's rights holders. Rights holders own the land.

12:58 They have the right to that land. They don't just have a stake in it, trying to get something out of it. So a lot of the times, we include indigenous people as stakeholders, but they're really rights holders. They should have the final say on that land if it's happening on their land. That's what's really important when it comes to these types of conversations. And so now hearing that there's gonna be equity ownership in a lot of these major projects, it makes me feel better about the future of Canada's environment. I think that's something that we can see happening in many years to come. And I think this is where like, ocean technology enters the picture. The panel I moderated wasn't about fisheries. It wasn't just about seafood companies or oil and gas. It was about ocean technology, and that's where things really get interesting because we're entering a period where ocean technology is becoming increasingly important.

13:44 AI, autonomous vehicles, ocean sensors, mapping technologies, data platforms, environmental monitoring systems. These tools will shape how we understand and manage the ocean. But the question is: Who owns them? Who controls the data? Who decides how they're going to be used, and who benefits from the economic opportunities they create? Historically, Indigenous communities have often participated in projects after the major decisions were already made, and that is really crappy, and it pisses a lot of people off. And you wonder why Indigenous people are so angry when these decisions are made without them. But if ownership is becoming the new model in fisheries and infrastructure, could it become the new model in ocean technology as well?

14:28 That's the question I think we'll be hearing much more from over the next decade because I think it's gonna be interesting to see, especially with ocean sovereignty and who controls the ocean and who has access to the ocean, and how Indigenous people and government are gonna work together to ensure that they have that access. That's gonna be a really interesting process in seeing what happens in the future. We look at data sovereignty, we look at Indigenous-led innovation, Indigenous led monitoring programs, community-based technology development, local priorities that will drive technology adoption. Like, these are all things that I think is gonna be huge. And one of the biggest things that was said at the panel as I wrap things up here is, Ken Paul mentioned, we've been living together, Indigenous and non-Indigenous for over 500 years, yet we barely know each other.

15:13 There's been social structures and pressures that have really kept us from engaging with each other. And I think when you really come down to the brass tacks, if you will. It's just getting to know each other. We have to be in a part of just getting to know each other, getting to a point where we can build relationships from an individual basis, we can start trusting each other and start creating friendships in these professional relationships. I think that's something that is really important. Strip away the stereotypes we have of each other and be able to work together, because I think we're gonna benefit from each other if we do. And I think like that combination is gonna be great in the future, especially when it comes to the environment. That's really what left me after that.

15:54 I was like, "Oh, this is really, really cool. This is something that we can look into the future." And like what happens next? I think we're watching like a broader shift happen in Canada, a shift from consultation toward partnership to a shift from participation toward ownership, and I think that's gonna be a powerful shift, a shift from being included in conversations to helping lead them. And will every project follow that? Probably not. Will every partnership succeed? Probably not. But the trend is becoming increasingly clear. More indigenous nations are seeking equity positions. More governments are supporting those approaches. And more industries are recognizing that ownership creates stronger relationship than consultation alone. And if that trend continues, it could fundamentally change how ocean projects are developed in this country and how, like, the economics are gonna change within these indigenous communities.

16:44 I think that's what we're really seeing here. Like, you know, the potential of offshore wind, ocean monitoring networks, blue economy projects, marine transportation infrastructure, emerging technology companies. We're really gonna start to see a shift in how things are going to change in the future, whether it's near future or far from it. It's gonna change. I think that's really interesting. The question I ask to you, like, what would ocean conservation look like if communities most connected to the ocean were also among the largest owners of the projects operating there? Let's think about that for a sec. I think we're at a very good position in the future. The most important thing I learned from moderating this panel wasn't just about technology, it was about ownership. Because when communities move from being consulted to becoming partners and owners, the conversation changes completely, and that shift may end up shaping the future of ocean conservation in Canada, and even land conservation in Canada, as much as any new technology we could ever see, whether it be AI or anything else.

17:39 That's it for today's episode. If you enjoyed today's and you wanna hear tomorrow's, follow How to Protect the Ocean for your next Ocean weekday update, because I think this is something that we're trying to change the culture, change around just discussing the ocean, thinking about the ocean from one of using it as a natural resource to using it and respecting it as we use it. I think that's really important, and we can definitely learn from our indigenous friends and communities about how to manage the planet, manage the land, manage the freshwater, and manage the sea. I think it's something that's really important. But that's it for today's episode. If you wanna get a hold of me, you can do so. Just go to the show notes, all my socials are there. DM me on Instagram, TikTok, whatever you'd like. I'd be more than happy to continue this conversation that we started here.

18:21 But that's it for today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.