All The Sharks, filming, science, and stories from the field

0:00 Imagine competing against other scientists, underwater camera divers, and all sorts of people who have made it a career to dive underwater. Looking for specific animals with only a few tanks of air, certain amount of time during the day. Raging currents and giant predators around every corner. My guests today are Dr. Chris Malinowski and Dr. B Brendan Towar. They did exactly that as a part of Netflix series, hit series. All the sharks, and trust me, they're behind the scenes stories will. Definitely surprise. We're gonna be talking about their personal journeys of going from scientists to advocates in a way, and trying to find that line where they can still speak well about the unbiased science, but also advocate for the environment.

0:46 It's something that a lot of scientists go through, including myself, trying to figure out where they should be along that line, and this is a really interesting conversation that I had. On this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. On today's episode, we have two special, special guests. They are from the hit series, all the sharks, where people would take tanks, four tanks a day for eight hours in different places around the world, and they would compete to take pictures of different species of sharks, each worth different points in different places.

1:33 So a tiger shark in the maldive is worth three points because they're found all over the place, and when they go to the Galapagos, they're worth a lot more like maybe 60 or 75 points. I forget the number exactly. But they are worth a lot more because they're rare in those areas and these divers, underwater photographers and underwater videographers, scientists, conservationists, science communicators, are all up to compete against with four prize where they can give money towards charity. This was a reality show like we've never seen before. The one thing I love about this reality show is it showed the diversity of sharks. We got away from just tigers, bulls, great whites, thresher sharks, all these different types of sharks that we see over and over and over again on different types of like shark weeks and shark fests and so forth.

2:20 It's always good to know those stuff, but after a while we kind of just think those are the only sharks that are around or people who aren't familiar with it. Don't really get to know a lot of the other sharks that are around. And we saw wgan sharks, we saw old silky sharks. We saw cat, leopard cat sharks in South Africa. We saw all these different types of sharks. Rare as well as interesting looking sharks. And we really got to see the passion of the scientists that were on here, including Chris Malinowski and Brennan Tower, who are here to discuss. Their experience with all the Sharks. Also their career and how they got to on all the Sharks, like what it was like, what they were worried about, what they wanted to make sure they got through, how they were happy with the way that they did the show, like the producers and edited the show and the way they looked when they came out of the show.

3:04 It was really well done. You know, obviously I have a video that I'll link to in the show notes where, you know, I talked about how much I loved this show and it was just nice to be able to get Chris and Brendan. I had Aaliyah on the Beyond Jaws podcast with Dave Ebert and then I was able to get Chris and Brendan. Chris just got married. They both came in from the field like over the summer that they were there a lot. And so it was just great to be able to be a part and get to hear their part and their story behind the scenes of all the Sharks. So it was great to hear it. I'm happy that you get to listen to this interview. Enjoy this interview with Chris and Brendan and I'll talk to you after. Hey Chris. Hey Brendan. Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about all the sharks?

3:46 Absolutely. Absolutely wonderful. Excited for it actually. Wonderful. Right on. I'm super pumped because this is something that we've been wanting to do for quite a long time. Uh, when all the sharks was released in the summer, uh, you guys were in the field doing your science work, and so it's always difficult. We have to talk about, we have to talk to production companies, I think of getting people to be like, look, we have scientists who actually work in the field in the summers and they need to stay in the field, and they can't do press when you release it in the summer, so we'll have to talk to them about that. Well, so I, I actually had to write into the contract that I needed to be back by a certain date because I had a field season to get back for, so that wasn't there. The actual. An actual consideration.

4:27 Yeah, absolutely. I love it. Well, this is great. I'm, I'm super happy to have you, to have you on because, um, you know, this is something that I've been wanting to have you guys on for a while. We've been talking for a while, back and forth, uh, a lot of cool things that happened to you guys over the summer. Chris, you got, you got married, which is awesome. Uh, and yeah, that's fantastic. Um, so we're going, we're gonna talk a lot about all the sharks and, and how that whole production works. We had Leon earlier in the summer, and she talked a little bit about, you know, what, well, she talked a lot about what she did. Uh, and, uh, I wanna get your guys' take, you know, we're not gonna, there's still people who are watching this show, so we're not gonna say who won, right? But we can say that you guys did pretty well, right?

5:08 You guys went pretty far. So we'll just go as, as that. But I don't wanna say too many people that you know who won and who not. You gotta watch the show on Netflix. All the sharks. But I wanna get to know, not just your, the, the whole production thing, but I want to get to know your experience, not only in, you know, all the sharks, but you know, how you became scientists and what really got you into scientists and how this show has potentially changed your way of viewing how you do science communication in the future. So that's what we're gonna be talking about today. We're gonna talk about all sorts of things, so I'm super excited. But before we do, I wanna get to know you guys a little bit more. So Chris, could you just let us know who you are and what you do? Well, kind of like you, Andrew.

5:48 I grew up far removed from the ocean in, uh, a state called Wisconsin. Very northern part of the United States. And what, what state is that? You've passed through it before on your way, on your way up to Canada, I'm sure of it. Yeah. Um, but you know, I mean, I think, I didn't know what marine biology was when I was younger, but I had this fantasy of what I thought it was. Right. And, and so I. I grew up just trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I knew that I loved to be outside. I knew that I, I loved to splash around the ponds and, and lakes and, and try to basically, um, figure out what my, my curiosity was. And I go out there looking for frogs, looking for lizard, looking for fish, whatever.

6:30 Um, and so sort of as I progressed through school, through, through my, my career, I stayed that track quite, quite firmly. I, at some point during undergrad was pre-med and thought maybe I'd go the medical route, but I always had Biology corn center to what I was interested in. And I had an internship working on, um, and, and fish ecology in the Great Lakes Lake Michigan in undergrad, which then I took a job in doing that after I, I graduated. So that really sort of like got me interested in. Understanding in that case, invasive species impact on native fish populations, um, was a big one and continues to be in the Great Lakes as it is in the marine environment. Mm-hmm. And so I follow that path.

7:10 I had an incredible advisor then that really got me hooked on fish ecology. And my background is, by the way, even though we're talking about sharks, my, my background is very broad. I'm, I consider myself more of a marine biologist fish ecologist. Right. Um, and I dabble in a lot of different things under the umbrella of sort of conservation human impacts. And so I started following that, that path I think in at some point. And I can remember a few instances during, especially my undergraduate, um, part of my education where I just really started to see some things going on around me. Um, you know, roads being constructed, forest being torn down, um, pollution that you could very readily see. And I really started to question what our impacts were on the environment.

7:53 And that's really what. Uh, inspired me to follow the path that I'm on, and I've never really been able to figure out exactly what my focus and ecosystem has been. So I've done wetland research, I've done great lakes research. I've spent a lot of time now in my, uh, master's, PhD, um, and beyond in, in the marine world working on big fish. Uh, my PhD work was on Goliath grouper, which of course I worked around sharks most of the time I was working with that species. So it was a pretty easy segue into my, um, my current role, um, where the last three to four years, I've been running a shark lab now, so I've sort of done a lot of different things. Um, but it's always core and center on, on marine conservation especially.

8:35 Yeah, that's, it's, it's, it's super interesting. I wanna dive in a little bit more, but Brendan, let's get to know you a little bit. Why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do and sort of how you got into this whole game. Yeah. Um, well my name's Brendan Towar. I'm, uh, I'm currently a postdoc out at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, um, at UCSD. So I'm in San Diego. Love it out here. Um, I'm from Kentucky. Alright. Chris, couple Midwest guys. One of the same, what state is that? Um, so yeah, pretty similar like, you know, from a landlocked state. Um, did not grow up on the ocean, at least in the early years.

9:16 In like early middle school. My mom moved to Florida and so then I started spending summers, spring breaks, Christmas breaks, all that along the Gulf Coast and Pensacola Beach. Um, and I was already swimming all the time and fishing all the time. And so when she moved to Florida, that all just kind of took the next step and I was doing that in the ocean, fishing off the kayak and Right. Um. You know, fishing off piers a lot too. There's a big Pensacola beach fishing pier. Um, and so I just became more and more familiar with life in our oceans. Had a lot of really great, you know, firsthand encounters with wildlife. Um, definitely I caught a few sharks early on.

9:56 Um, and I, I'd see how people would interact with wildlife as well. You know, like on slow days on the fishing pier there, people sometimes pull up shark suckers, which are really cool fish that attach to, to big animals in the ocean like sharks and get a free ride and a free meal. Um, and people would catch these shark suckers and pull 'em up on the pier and then stick 'em against the flagpole at the end of the pier, and they just dry out and die. And, you know, you, you start to see stuff like that when you're like 12, 13, you're like, man, I don't know that, that's like, that's not right. Like, why are, why are we treating other life on our planet in this way? Um, and so I guess I, I kept fishing.

10:37 Um. For a while, you know, my fishing ethics changed a lot over the years from like fully catch and release to then fishing only to eat fish. Um, and I've definitely, I've gone even further that direction over the years. Now I do more like, I much prefer underwater photography or spearfishing. Um, but all that continued and, and led me into a career in biology. Had some great professors in undergrad. I went to Furman University in South Carolina, um, and one in particular got me really into wildlife ecology and management through a program in New Mexico called the Wild Semester. So I actually worked with him on Mountain Lions looking at Mountain Lion ecology.

11:18 Um, a lot of camera trap work and looking at their kill sites. We had a, a couple animals collared and so Nice. You know, he, he dropped me off at a wildlife refuge in the middle of New Mexico. I was probably 19. Yeah. Um, he dropped me off. I got a Chevy Blazer from the Fish and Wildlife Service and a trailer, and I was just there for like two months, three months. Basically looking at all the kill sites, like looking at all the GPS points of mountain lions from the night before, and then in the morning going and finding the places where they'd killed something and breaking every rule, like crawling up to a dead animal killed by mountain lion in the last 12 hours, dear God, by myself, taking samples of the, of whatever it was, identifying it and looking at prey habitat use.

12:04 So it, yeah, weirdly enough, all those skills and all those tools that I've built out there in the desert, looking at mountain lions, a lot of those same questions you can apply to sharks and so I knew that whole time. This is fun, but I'm not, not into the mosquitoes. I'm not that interested in the desert. Um, I gotta get to the ocean as soon as I can. Um, love it. But it, it made me, you know, a lot of, again, a lot of the same issues apply that face big terrestrial predators. Um, you know, whether that's wildlife conflict with people or what, whatever else, there's so many hunting and fishing, all these things. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that it really made me interested in management and the, the intersection between like wildlife ecology and management and how humans interact with the natural world.

12:48 And so that's really guided all the research I've done in the marine environment, um, on sharks ever since, you know, primarily looking at bycatch. Um, my master's was on deep sea bycatch mortality, uh, lots and lots of time spent in The Bahamas. Um. I'm studying everything from like shallow shark species in the mangroves to some really cool deep sea species Cuban dogfish and guer sharks offshore, like 800 meters down. Um, and so that's really, that's continued. That led to a PhD at Florida International, uh, focused on silky sharks primarily. Yeah. Um, and that was a perfect segue into my postdoc here at Scripps where I, the first year was looking at silky shark population structure in the Pacific, um, kind of split between Scripps and the Nature Conservancy.

13:34 Yeah. Um, and working with an RFMO, the, the Inner American Tropical Tuna Commission. Um, and then since then, the next postdoc is looking at, uh, toxins in commercially important seafood in Southern California. So focused on DDT and PCBs. So similar to lots of overlap with Chris in all these weird ways. Um, but you know, you, you bounce all over the place. There's nothing boring about this career. But it's actually pretty insane. And Brendan, I can talk at some point about how we got to know each other, but it's the same kind of parallel story that a lot of people tell, a lot of people that get into marine biology don't end up Yeah. Or, or, sorry, don't start in, in origin of the ocean. They just have this fantasy and they, they kind of live it out and figure out what that is throughout their career.

14:18 'cause working in the Great Lakes, same as Brendan, I was doing fish ecology stuff with a lot of the same gear that I ended up applying to then my masters when I got to The Bahamas. Um, and a lot of the same questions applied, and then I went back from my postdoc, um, at, at Purdue University after my PhD and applied a lot of the same things that I learned from freshwater to marine, back to freshwater again. So it really, um, you know, the questions, I'm always a very question oriented person, right? Because like at the end of the day, you can ask very similar questions in different places. Well, and and that's what a, that was my next question to both of you. Um. And, and Chris, we can start off with you in terms of what, what is, what are the, the, I know it probably changes as you evolve as a scientist, but for now, like what is your driving question?

15:03 You know, you've, you've, you've investigated multiple realms. Um, Brendan, you have two. What's your, and, and especially looking at predators, um, what's your driving question that, that allows you to experience all these different, uh, investigations and realms and science and realms, like fresh water and, and salt water to like, continue to drive? Like, I wanna know more about this question, but maybe with different species or maybe in a different environment? It's a great question and I, when I reflect on that and which I do often, it really comes down for me to living in a healthy, sustainable world ecosystem, right? So trying to, asking questions surrounding.

15:46 What makes a healthy ecosystem? What is a baseline that we can, that we can compare to? Do we have a good baseline? Do we need to develop that baseline in order to compare? Um, and those sorts of questions can be asked in terrestrial marine and in fresh water aquatic environments. You know, what, what has been introduced to this environment that has changed it? Um, a lot. You know, I've done a lot of work with invasive species. I've done work with pollution. Um, my PhD was all, um, on mercury toxicity and how does that impact the health of an animal? And then how do you scale that up? How does that affect the population? How does that affect the ecosystem? And so you can kind of tackle these questions from different avenues. Right. Um, you know, overfishing iss a big one. I know Brendan, uh, focuses on that a lot for his work.

16:28 Yeah. And, and as a i, but also in species like the Goliath grouper that up until recently was closed to, to fishing. What is the cause of their population changes? Early on, we know it was overfishing, but then it's habitat loss and destruction and it's pollution. Um, so oftentimes we can point to what the major impact is, but then there's multiple other ones that trail from there. And trying to get back to some equilibrium. But we can live sustainably within our environment, but also we're stewards of the environment. We don't own it. We're part of it. Right, right. And, and we need to also, um, we have the responsibility to manage ourselves is really what we're managing. And to do that responsibly, but you need to understand the baseline ecology, um, side of things from an animal in order to then build that up to ecosystem to how we, how we manage it.

17:17 So, um, I think I've answered your question, but generally those are the sorts of things that I think about as healthy ecosystems and how do we, how do we understand it? How do we get there? That's amazing. And Brendan, how about yourself? Same question to you. Yeah, very similar. I think I've, uh, I think because of. My start as a fisherman. I think that's all. Fishing has always been the focus. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the main mission being sustainable fishing. Um, so I'm, you know, I'm not anti fishing by any means. Um, but if we could find the balance that Chris is talking about, where we've got health ecosystems that support people and allow for abundant wildlife, you know, that's, mm-hmm.

17:57 That's the dream. And if you start there and work backwards, what's the information that you need in order to achieve that? And so, for me, again, I think like the, the personal experiences really drove this early on. Like, bycatch seemed like an issue that we could really focus on with a lot of people in agreement that we can get rid of it, you know, like mm-hmm. Nobody likes catching the wrong species. Right. It takes up time, it ruins your gear, you know, it's, you're not gonna eat it. There's no point. And so when I learned, I, I saw that firsthand growing up. You know, like you're fishing for. Whatever it is. Like the slot limit red fish on the flats in Pensacola, and you catch something outta season and you throw it back and you're like, well, I didn't wanna ruin that animal's day.

18:45 You know? Right. And sometimes it doesn't make it, sometimes it dies because you caught it. Yeah. And when you then extrapolate that out to the enormous scale at which fisheries take place globally, and you're like, man, we're killing so many sharks in particular, um, and marine mammals and all these species that aren't well suited to being caught in large numbers. Mm-hmm. And they're dying accidentally. No one wants this to happen. How can we solve that problem? And then as you go back, you're like, all right, well, we need to know where these sharks go. Where do they spend time? What are the places Yeah. Where we should be protecting them? How do they react when they're caught on a hook? Why? Mm-hmm. Why do some species die when others don't? Then you get, like, you can get really, really fine scale. And, and I did in some studies getting down into the physiology of it.

19:28 Um, and then, you know, you're always like zooming in, zooming out, maybe one. One year you're focused on blood chemistry and physiology to figure out like, how can we predict mortality in this one species based on how long it's on the hook. Yeah. And then the next year you're looking at like extinction risk criteria across all these species in the Caribbean. And so it's, it's, it's been challenging for me and still is, I think, to find exactly where my knowledge and skills like best apply to solve some of these problems. Um, I'm definitely still in the early career stage where I'm still trying to accumulate lots and lots of tools. Um, but looking forward, I'm much more now than ever trying to think about how I can apply the things I've picked up to have the most impact, um, for the benefit of the animals and people and, and fisheries as well.

20:20 I love it. I love it. Those, those challenges that Brendan speaks of. I, we, we talk about this a lot and, and trying to figure out how to navigate this space that we're in. I mean, it's literally like, like Brendan, I'm, I'm having some, uh, some conservation, you know, minded issues right now. Like, you know, it almost becomes this, this all encompassing thing that you can't sleep you, because we're, we're putting all of our energy and effort into these questions. Of course. And then at the end of the day, what actually moves the needle, you know, um, it becomes a major challenge. 'cause we could have all the science in the world and then oftentimes we have way more than we need to make good management decisions, but then you have to start playing this politics game or this, or in the case that we might talk more about today, maybe it's storytelling that, that we need to delve more into because, um, you know, science is one major component of this, um, this puzzle, this challenge.

21:07 But there are so many other things that I think we're both exploring in early career science as early career scientists now too. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that's really interesting. It's just, it's funny, we're on the same wavelength here because, um, I was gonna ask, my next question was gonna be like, you know, once you get the science and you understand the, you know, whatever scale you're at, whether you're looking at blood physiology or whether you're looking at ecosystem dynamics, is the goal, what's the goal of doing the research? Obviously it's to get that understanding and to get, uh, a complete understanding of what the, of what the topic is. But is there, when you look at conservation as a whole, 'cause both of you're quite conservation focused, is there, uh, is the goal of each research paper, not only to answer the question, but also to help drive policy?

21:52 Like, are you working with nonprofit organizations or policy makers to be like, Hey, what do you, what information do you need? I'll go, I'll go, like, I have the same question. I'll go find it in this study. Like, are, is that the goal or is that even now, like, now that you guys are, have been in, in the, in the game for a little bit and you're like, okay. Like, I, I wanna do more. I want my study to have more of an impact than it already has. How do I do this? Is that where you're at? Or like, is, is policy? Are you, are you looking at policy? Are you looking at, you know, you talked about politics, uh, talk about science, communication. Like where, like what avenue are you at? And, and do you find this happening with other colleagues of yours?

22:35 I'm happy to answer that first, but I've got an answer for that for sure. But I, I don't wanna keep talking first before Brenda. Oh yeah. We'll, Brenda, I feel like I, we'll go Brendan. This Brendan, did you wanna respond to that first or do you want me to go? Sure. I'm excited to hear about your experience with Goliath Gruber. I assume that's what you're gonna Yeah, but I'll, I'll start it off. It's an easy one for me 'cause I've been in that Good job. Perfect. Yeah. Well that's, it's a perfect case study and yeah, this exact question, but I would say I've gone, I've always struggled, I think with being motivated by doing conservation, relevant work. Or work leading towards sustainable fishing. I think as a grad student, especially early on, it's very easy to see a potential project, realize you can get funding for it, you can do it in the right place, and you just, you hit the ground running so fast.

23:27 Mm-hmm. You do it and then you publish it, and then you're like, well, two years later, what has this done? Really? I don't know, you know? Right. Like, did I achieve my initial objective? That's really hard to say. You might put a tiny piece of useful information out there if the need arises for it. Like I'm thinking, my masters was all on discard mortality of these deep seed bycatch species, and the shark I focused on, well, a couple of 'em, but the main one was a Cuban dogfish. It's the number one bycatch species in a couple of fisheries among Dogfish in the southeastern United States. Now there's a discard mortality rate based on a long line capture scenario.

24:10 Has anyone used it? No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's there. If someone wants to use it, if someone ever does like a stock assessment for Cuban Dogfish in that region, I'd assume that they would. It's been used in other studies to inform this general problem globally of deep sea shark bycatch. But I, it's very difficult to pinpoint, like, I, I asked this question, I answered it to the best of my ability, and now it's achieved this thing. And so I think now I'm trying to come at things from the opposite direction of like, if you wanna inform the policy of some fishery management council, go to their meeting this year, see what their research priorities are.

24:52 I promise they've published them in some convoluted PDF somewhere. Find that PDF and, and read it. And then say like, Hey, I'll, I'll answer this question that you guys need. 'cause nobody's got enough time and, and funding. So if grad students can. There. I think that's a missing connection in a lot of cases. Yeah. Where like those management bodies need to almost put out a call every year of like, we'd love for people to tackle these questions and we've got all this data, but that's almost a whole job that someone would have to create, you know? Um, in a way. Yeah. Co completely agree. I mean, it's, it's definitely needed. Um, and it's something you'd learn. I completely agree. Like when I did my master's, you know, I never thought about any kind of implications afterwards or how it would be used afterwards.

25:35 I was part of a larger project like in at, for World Wildlife Fund, so that was just where my project was, but I didn't, I didn't know what was gonna happen next. I never asked the questions because that was more focused on just doing my masters and doing that little thing. And I think it would've been good if I started to like open, like, and you're young, you just wanna do the work, but you gotta open your mind a little bit and just be like. What's going on in the world? Why am I doing this? Mm-hmm. And just ask those overarching questions, those very high level questions where you're just like, where is this gonna impact and how is this gonna impact in the, in the real world after, after I leave? Or, or, you know, is this gonna help somewhere in an island community or is this gonna help somewhere in Canada or the US or in Europe or Africa or wherever?

26:16 Uh, and then be able to do it that way. Um, but yeah, that was a fantastic, fantastic answer. Chris. I, I want to hear the, the Goliath grouper story because you, I, I assume you've been working on that for quite some time. Yeah, I, um, I think it's interesting the point that, that Brendan brings up. 'cause I think ultimately what we all want as scientists, as students, as whatever, when we publish a paper, it's almost always aligned in a paper. Like, you know, this, we're trying to push this towards management, like management implications. Yeah. We all use these lines in our papers, but do they actually get used for that? That direct, uh, management application, um, oftentimes, no. You know, right. A lot of times we put years of work into a paper and we're lucky to have it read a dozen times.

26:59 You know, if, if you have higher impact work yeah. It'll get cited a bunch. Um, but that, that's the question. Right. And, um, in terms of like thinking about funding and projects, before I get into goth grouper, that's always been a big question for me. And when I was in my PhD, I applied for a lot of grants. Mm-hmm. Got good marks and didn't get funding for, for the big ones I applied for mostly through Noah. But what I was trying to do, and I think my, what I was missing then was I was trying to take the project that I really wanted to work on and fit it into the, into the mold of what they were funding. Right. And, and that you can be a good writer, have good questions, and oftentimes it doesn't, doesn't quite make it. So the opposite of that, that Brendan brought up is. You know, you see what's being funded or you go to these meetings and then you develop questions, projects around that.

27:44 Oftentimes those are probably, that's probably a better recipe for funding. Um, just as an example with Goliath grouper, I never sought out to, to keep working with, you know, large megafauna, um, charismatic species. But it's kind of just been a path that I've followed. And Goliath gruper to me, became such a, a giant in the, um, policy conservation ecology world because we didn't know much about them. Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of contention around the species and big fisheries implications and, and a lot of stakeholder involvement between the dive community, um, and, and fishermen. Um, and, and I can give some examples, but, but to me, why I got so excited and, and why I was worked so hard in my PhD was because it fit all of these things that I was interested in.

28:32 And to Goliath group, it became the model organism, um, model species for me to really. Hone in on a lot of these questions that have plagued me my entire career. And so I, I, I took that to task and did what I could and learned from some two incredible, um, PhD advisors, Dr. Um, Felicia Coleman and Dr. Chris Koenig, who were giants in the field. Our giants in the field. Yeah. Um, and so to keep it brief, you know, what was really going on is the, they're over fish to extinction and, um, to new extinction levels and, um, throughout their entire range, right from, yeah. Um, the Atlantic down, the Caribbean, down, um, all the way from Florida to Brazil. Theoretically to the west coast of Africa, even though, um, only anecdotal, only anecdotal reports existed, they still occur there.

29:15 So this giant fish that forms these large fishing aggregations, and we all know fishing aggregations often get fished down. Um, and so they were targets of that. And on top of that, they're large, they don't move much and they have very high site fidelity. So they're really easy to spear fish, really easy to target for fishers. And they got, their levels got driven down. Well, the work that Chris Konik Andia had done as I was leading into that lab was they were basically discovering and working towards just understanding the basic biology of this fish that almost nothing was known about before 1990. And, and as that the population started to rebuild once they were completely closed off, 'cause there was no sense in having a fishery for them anymore, you got all these major conservation impacts that started coming in.

29:57 Um, you know, fishermen, um, disgruntled over catches being stolen, um, as especially the larger adults off on reefs. Um, you know, you have all the issues of habitat loss destruction. They use mangrove habitats. You've got, um, constant commission FWC meetings to talk about whether or not to reopen this fishery that's been closed for 30 years. So that's where I start to insert, I, I'm working on the population levels of the, of these fish as they recover. I'm looking at mercury toxicity, how that affects their, their, um, their reproductive capacity, their, their individual health and population health, and tying this all into management. So, and then I'm also bringing these to, to commission meetings with my advisors and we'd go in and we would, we would talk about the, the biology of the animal that they can't withstand heavy fishing pressure.

30:46 But you've got all these voices coming in. You've got, you know, fish, some very conservative fishing, um mm-hmm. Members of the community coming in and saying, we need to call these animals. We need to kill 'em. They're ruining the reefs, they're stealing our catches. And then you've got the dive community saying, we need these. They're driving, you know, millions of dollars of revenue for our, for us. And then I'm coming in as a scientist being like, okay, how do you dance this line of? Mm-hmm. And I know, Andrew, you've talked about this before in, um, in an earlier podcast. How do you dance this line as a scientist, staying unbiased, but also speak up for science? Yeah. And that's really the direction that I found myself going in more and more and more. And we've written marine policy pieces. We've written open letters to the commissioners. I've met with individual commissioners to talk about the biology, how they can't withstand catches, why all the misinformation being brought to them by the public is untruth.

31:32 They're not destroying the reefs. Yeah. They're actually increasing diversity and abundance of other fishes. Um, but these negative interactions that people have, just like they do sharks, which is why that's such a parallel is the depredation issue going on with sharks. And the keys right now is the same thing that I've been dealing with Goliath Cooper my entire career. Yeah. And so trying to dispel misinformation, misperceptions, bring this to the commission, write publications that deal with the policy pieces speaking on top, on, on behalf of, um, you know, conservative management policies being looking at the best available science. 'cause not all science is the same either. Right? Keep that in mind. No, for sure. Um, and, and so that, I found myself in the middle of that a lot and, and trying to navigate where my energy was best suited.

32:17 So going to the commission meetings and giving talks there, it's been good, but also exhausting and of, and oftentimes maybe not worth the energy and effort that takes. So I think as Brendan and I consider our path moving forward, um, and, and other colleagues as well, and even in my position as director of research. In conservation for Ocean First Institute, it's like, how much time do you spend doing this versus that, versus education versus research, versus trying to walk this tight policy line and not lose your credibility as a scientist. And by the way, get into Netflix series and try to talk about science and, and be a public communicator. Trying to basically have this positive conservation impact going all these different directions, like what is worth the energy and effort that it takes.

32:58 And it also reality tv. Chris the Bachelor baby, we gotta get into the Bachelor. That's the way you do it. Love Island. I think it's interesting because like, you know, the way, the way you just talked about it and, and Brandon we talked, you guys have talked both about this is you, you're one person trying to do all these one, all these things like we're scientists, we study science, we study the ocean, we look at trends, you know, whether they're positive or negative or, or just neutral. That's what we're doing. And here we are finding ourselves and doing, trying to, doing, trying to do everything else. And I think the biggest pushback, I know when I speak to scientists is there's no financial incentive to do all this. It's the passion that we have because of the way we grew up.

33:42 You know, bringing fishing, you know, Chris being around the Great Lakes and seeing the changes that have happened. This is what we care about. I think we're very, it is a very different field when you go into wildlife, oceans, whatever that might be compared to like maybe finance, where, you know, your passion is really shown through, uh, this, in, in a way of like, we need to protect, not try and make the most money possible. It's, we need to protect, but you also have to do your basic job. And sometimes that's just science. It's considered science. So it's, it's a very different thing that, because we always just like, well, we gotta do this. Like, we gotta help. But it's, it's almost like. There's a lot of organizations out there that, you know, they are, they do amazing things with a small team, uh, just like Ocean First.

34:27 Uh, but they, you know, you can't do everything. You know, you've gotta do what you can do because of a small team. And, and, uh, and obviously I'm not picking on, on Ocean First, this is a, this is nonprofits in any kind of wildlife management is, you can't do everything. You can't do the, the science communication. You can't do the, the lobbying or, or working with policy makers. You can't, and doing the science and everything, it's like, it's a hard thing to do. And then getting funding to build an organization like that is not, uh, easy as well. It's, it's, it's a difficult thing to do. So I think it's really interesting that we've identified that. Um, but then we also do these things, which is like, kind of crazy, like all the Sharks, you know, the, the Netflix special that both of you're in. And one of the reasons why you're here is, is you, you do this as a, like, what was the reason why you, like, were you approached to do this and who was approached first?

35:14 And um, and like how did this all happen? Well, first, first there are, well, I'll just add to the point that you were just making, they're blurred lines between our personal lives and our, and our work lives. Absolutely. And those, that is the biggest difficulty, I think, for any of us Yeah. Is like, where do I draw the line with just OFI, ocean First Institute and what I do personally. Yeah. And what's worth the effort and to continue on. So that becomes the sort of exhaustion that happens. Um, 'cause yeah, with, with, with limited funds and in small operations, you have to limit what you're doing or you burn out. And, and that's what we're all a victim of a lot. Um, for sure for the show though, as, oh, go ahead Brendan. I'll just add that we also have to be very careful with the line between scientific credibility and then more advocacy style work, you know?

36:01 Mm-hmm. And Chris and I come from, like, our academic training has been very parallel. Like we've come from labs that are heavy on. Um, you know, I'd say all of our advisors are like naturalists before anything else. Like true I theologist type folks. Yeah. Um, and so we wanna stay true to the science at all times, but also like at, at times, like Chris said, you do have to advocate for the science. And so that's been a challenge as well, is trying to figure out where our best place is among those different genres of, um, I guess science or conservation more broadly. And the Netflix show is, uh, that's a whole new, a whole new genre.

36:45 Yeah. And so with that, well, it's kinda like reality tv if you really think about it. It's, it's an absolute from a reality tv it was actually quite refreshing, uh, from a reality TV perspective. Uh, I thought that was cool, which I'll go to a bit, but Yeah. Chris, sorry, go ahead. I cut you off. I apologize. No, I mean, that's why these are fun conversations. We've all got something to say. Um, we, you know, Brendan and I. Made a decision to, after we had been contacted by the producer of the show, um, we had both been interviewed separately and, and together. And we had a long deliberation after this. 'cause we, you know, we asked, it almost became our interview of 'em, right? And that's how I, it felt, and I think that makes for a good conversation. Part of why we trusted the producers on this, as they were willing to, um, let us arrow out all of our concerns.

37:28 You know, Brendan and I, um, were very concerned with our, uh, scientific reputations. We're not quick to sign up for these sorts of things. Um, but it was clear that they wanted two people with, you know, credibility in the science field to be a part of the show, namely with their PhDs. Hence our name, shark Docs. We, we set ourselves apart with that, um, purposely. And we wanted to bring that to the table, but we had to do it appropriately. And we had to really figure out for ourselves how much we were willing to, to put ourselves out there in this reality style TV show. Um, and what that might mean for us personally, for our careers. Um, it was a real consideration and, and a lot of it we doubted, right? And, and we got this long contract that was basically a, a carbon, um, print of what the Bachelor would see, right?

38:15 Mm-hmm. You know, basically this very scary document saying We own you. And, and we pushed back a lot. We pushed back for, for a long, long time for, and not that we got a huge amount of ground with it, but enough where we were comfortable, right. Because it was, we were up against Netflix, right? Yeah. Um, but they've gotta protect their own too, and, and their production. Yeah. Um, concept. So we, we understood that. So we, we worked with it as much as we could. Um, weren't really sure. Up until, I think like weeks before, like what we were gonna do. Like we literally didn't sign the contract till before, but, um, I, I think we got, it was a week, A week before. Before the first flight. It was. Yeah. Yeah. Did you guys, the flight, was that close, like you, like it was upcoming, you're like, do we do, like, what was your biggest, um, like sticking point of, of actually doing the show?

39:02 Like what was the big worry for you guys? For me it was credibility. Just like we're saying. Yeah. I mean in, yeah. In our fields. Your credibility is kind of everything. Like your reputation is worth a lot. And Chris and I are, we're still, I don't know, in the first third of our career, maybe, um, maybe I still call myself an early career researcher, so I don't know when that ends. And it feels like, yeah, I think I'm, I'm teetering at the edge of that. More than you're Yeah. Just a few years ahead. Yeah. But it's still, it's, that's funny because like all of our friends obviously are like senior people in their companies or whatever.

39:46 Meanwhile it's like, oh, I'm a postdoc at Scripps. Like, yeah. You know, uh, but like reality is I've been doing this same job since I was like 19. Mm-hmm. You know, like it's, we have a lot of experience and we've invested our entire lives into this career. And so at a time when our careers are going well. We're like, yeah, we're publishing, like we're hitting all the benchmarks to, I don't know, a couple years from now in my case, like, I don't know, maybe I want to be a professor. Okay. Three years from now, maybe that's attainable somewhere. Yeah. Do I wanna risk everything on? Yeah. Like some show that I have no control over. Like they can just, for example, each, each place, right is three days of filming from morning till night where you're searching for sharks.

40:31 And at any given time there's like multiple cameras on every team. And so you're looking at just hundreds of hours of footage per location that get whittled down to the 45 minute episode. And so you can imagine the breadth of humanity that's experienced across four teams and like eight weeks of traveling the world with one group of people. Like imagine a family vacation going for eight weeks, you know? Oh yeah. You're people have very strong personalities. Yeah. Like interacting with other people, getting that everything's filmed. Right. And um. And we just didn't know what this was gonna be. This is also the first of its kind, right? We like a reality show, competition show shark education, friendly.

41:13 Like everything they pitched to us we're like, sounds great. Yeah. But what, we have no example of what this is actually going to look like. So we still in the end, had to take a massive leap of faith and trust the producers and be like, okay. And then Brendan and I were like, okay, we, we stay true to ourselves. We don't try to act 'cause we're not actors, we're scientists, right? And, um, and we just, you know, we're ourselves and we, we stick to within guidelines of like, you know, trying not to lose our cool and, and, and all the things we would do in our normal lives. And I think that's what we, we stuck to and did very well. Um, not that we didn't falter at times, but that was human, you know, nature for us too. Um, but at the end we stayed true to ourselves.

41:53 I think, you know, we didn't try to push any narrative or do anything, um, and in, and in some ways it maybe made us less interesting on screen. But that's what we are willing to do and that's what we, we stuck to. Well, I'll tell you like the one thing that I, when I first heard about it, um, was I was like, this is a reality show. So is this gonna be like every other reality show where there's like these storylines that plot you against each other? You know what I mean? And we're like, things can get, as we know from other reality shows, things can get pretty nasty. What I loved about this show, and I guess it's just the characters of the people that were on this show, so like, just not only the both of you, but all the other teams people look so nice and supportive, you know what I mean?

42:36 Like people, I don't know if that's how it, how it happened, but like I'm sure there was a bit of competition 'cause like the whole point of the show was to get as many pictures as possible of certain species when you're in this different area. So there's a bit of that competition where you don't want to tell, you know, certain people where you're gonna go and all this kind of stuff, but like people seem generally like happy to be there and it wasn't as if you're trying to, um. Like there, there wasn't a part where you're not diving. Like I think there was one part in the show where they showed you guys all eating dinner together. And at first I thought, oh, this is where it's gonna happen. Like if it's gonna happen anywhere, this is where it's gonna happen. But it was pretty cool. Like it was pretty chilled out for a reality show and I was like, this is really nice. It's a, it's refreshing to have Rasha where the focus is literally on all the sharks, like you guys going out and finding this.

43:22 Um, and I thought that was pretty cool. Like, were you, after it was all said and done and you watched the show, like did you have a chance to watch the episodes before it came out or did you watch it like everybody else did? Yeah. Watch it like everybody else did. At end of the day, we didn't know what to expect. We didn't know how they were gonna, I know they were probably up and, um, trying to do all the post-production and on a tight timeline, so they probably didn't have a big gap between that. And when it came out from what we gathered. So, no, we didn't really know. And, and, and you're right Andrew, I think like this could have gone in a bunch of different directions. Yeah. But mostly like everybody got along very well. We had fun together. Yeah. We're, we still have maintained friendships we're Yeah. Doing some of these posts, um, show, um, events together, going and doing Q and a's together.

44:07 Nice. You know, Brendan's been pretty close with Randy on the west coast. I've had Rosie Oh, nice. Um, and MJ out here, um, out of the Miami area. So we've done some stuff together and, and I, yeah, I think, you know, we've developed relationships that'll, that'll probably last, you know, forever, so That's awesome. I think that was pretty cool. But there was a lot of stuff that we filmed out at dinners doing various things that would've been kind of cool for camera. But I think, yeah, they stuck true to this being about the sharks, not about the people. And so I think, you know, one of the complaints I've gotten from people is that they never really got to know us that well or any of the groups. Yeah. Which, okay, I can see that. Fair enough though, because I, I think they had so much time and, and it really highlighted the sharks and it wasn't about the people as much in the end.

44:50 And I think that's okay. Yeah, and I think I, I, I agree. I think I, I agree with the criti criticism that it wasn't a lot about you guys, but it's also, it was like a six episode, you know, sort of arc. So it's not as if it's goes on the other reality shows can go on for like, you know, 20 episodes for all we know. And so that's a, there, that's when you really get into the characters and, and it's not all all about the 'cause. I mean, if you did that with yours, it'd be, you know, in South Africa for a long time, in Japan for a long time, which could have been really cool. But I'm sure they had specific episodes to fit timelines into and, and so I thought, I thought they did a great job. I, I, I definitely, as you know, I, I spoke highly about it when I did my first, uh, episode on it, and then I've been telling people all about it, um, which I thought was great.

45:35 But like for you guys as scientists going through the process. Traveling to all these different places. Oh, well, I guess the first, did you know where you were gonna go? Like, uh, like so you started off, uh, in, in the Maldives Not a bad place to start off, let's be honest. Like, that's a pretty cool place to go. It was all right. Yeah. Did you know where you were gonna go next? Like, did you know all the different regions where you were gonna go? We didn't. We had, um, I'd say two weeks before the first flight, we got a list of possible locations. Oh, okay. 'cause the, you know, the producers had our backs and wanted, they wanted everyone to say good things that were like, relevant and accurate and would help advance the story.

46:17 Yeah. And so, but they also didn't want anyone to have a big leg up. So they said, all right, here's whatever, 10 or 12 possible locations, like go do your homework before we leave and once we hand you your plane ticket, then you'll know where we're going. Um, and so Chris and I, in true scientist fashion, we've got these like enormous PowerPoints of like species ID for every possible location. Even the ones we didn't go to. Yeah. We have a Google Earth file with like sightings locations of anyone we've ever met who's like done a PhD at a particular place. They're like, all right, here's a Google Earth file drop pins where you would spend your time to find sharks and rays.

46:59 Um, phenomenal. I think that was the, that's how we were able to, that's how we were able to nerd out. And, and Brendan, you had access to reef data too, so you made like hotspot maps right? Of like even more likely to find things in this area. We had literally heat maps of that. Yeah. Yeah. We use, we use the tools available to us. The reef, uh, reef Environmental Education Foundation is one of the two charities that we donated. Uh, some money too. That's awesome. That's awesome. I would say because it helped how we got the money. Yeah. But, uh, we got some money and half of it went to them and half went to Ocean First and, and Perfect. And the Reef database is publicly available. Uh, you just have to request it, but it's got all this amazing citizen science data around the world.

47:42 And so anywhere that they had data, we would Yeah. Create hotspot maps. Um, one that comes to mind is, is in the Gala Galapagos at Darwin. And no surprise, the hotspot for everything was right at Darwin's arch or Pillars. Um, but it was, it was very helpful, like a combination of reading all the papers for each location. Mm-hmm. And then the Google Earth file from all of our personal contacts and everyone else is doing this too, in their own communities. Of course. Maybe it's more like. The social media like Yeah. Underwater photographer community or whoever it is for us, it's, it's folks who are scientists. Um, yeah. But yeah, all those different layers come together. So once you land in a place, you're like, all right, we've got three days.

48:23 The weather looks like this, the tides are at these times. If we plan this out perfectly and everything goes well, then we'll hit all these spots. Yeah. And the last day we'll spend, you know, just racking up these points that we know are gonna be there the whole time. And so every team would have their approach. Um, and ours was informed by all of that information and like took the scientific approach for sure. But also just, I think what we did a really good job of was time management. It, it really became a game of time management and budgeting resources, whether that's bait time. Yeah. Air, air on, you know, your four scuba tank tanks, eight hours of air on what?

49:06 Four tanks? Like that's, yeah. That's what they gave you. That's, that's, that's what I thought they could focus on a little more. I it would've be cool if they had like a meat Yeah. Of like how much air you have left and how much time that'd be, you know what I mean? I may put that, put that, yeah. Put that comment into the next season. Right. Yeah. I would've loved to have seen that. Yeah. Well, I think the, the cool part for us that Brendan has, has described is that we approach this like we would the field, field work as scientists, right? So we, we strategize as much with as much time as we had, um, and really put a plan together, and then we're willing to adapt when things would change as we always do. So just being comfortable with, with, with changes being thrown at us or, or issues or weather.

49:48 And, and yeah. And then putting on these full face masks too, that we were wearing the whole time talking about air consumption. Yeah. Well, they suck up air. And so those are things Oh, interesting. You have to, you have to start to apply to your, your strategy is like, okay, we know we've only got so much bottom time now, which is different than how we would normally be. Yeah. And just trying to figure that out. And then having the four takes per day, the rules and the guidelines that we have to stick to immediately. Brendan and I both gravitated towards, oh, surface time. What are people doing during their surface intervals when they have to off gas? Oh, we're not taking a break. We're gonna jump in the water and snorkel because we can do that. And so we really started busting our butts and just with our time management, figuring out the depths we wanted to go to early on.

50:33 And, and if going for more abundant or rare species first was always sort of the, the big question. And then it's like, yeah, oh, let's go into the shallows in our off time and just time that really, well, okay, we got five minutes, get back on the boat, get back in. And we did that the whole time and that, and we started doing really well early on. And then other people kind of picked up on our strategy and started to sort of mimic that a little bit is, is kind of how we saw that going. But um, generally that's just how we approached it. We just worked our butts off and just worked. We stayed wet the entire time that we could. I, I love it. I did, I did love your strategy, um, going into it because you, you guys definitely had a good, I think it was you guys in the Maldives where it's like, okay, 'cause though just for the audience who haven't seen it, I highly recommend you go see it.

51:16 But there were, uh, points awarded for every picture you get, uh, in specific spots, but sharks in one spot, like say Tiger Sharks in one spot might be a lower value. Like in the Maldives, I think there were three points compared to like somewhere in The Bahamas it might be worth. Yeah. Or Galapagos. It might be worth a lot more. 'cause they're harder to find. It was based on how much they see it, but it was, it was, it was your team that said, well, look, they might only be worth three points in, in Maldives, but we know we're gonna see a lot of them, so we're gonna take as many pictures as possible. And you know, you ended up doing pretty well in that, in that first, in that first one and, and because of that strategy. So I just love it. Uh, it reminds me of you guys the way your approach reminds me of that film, the Martian, where Matt Dame's like, I'm gonna science the shit out of this.

51:59 Uh, you know, and that's essentially what you guys, it sounds like what you guys did, you know? And, and I think that's, uh. I think that was, that's, that's pretty cool because that's what you do. You look, you take like an analytical approach, look up databases, get your networks, like find where you can go and what's gonna be there. And then you have 12 and it gets to shrunken down to six or however many, and you're like, okay, like let's go, let's go out and do this. And then you guys did a lot. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, sorry. And then from a diving perspective, you know, visibility currents, tide. Yeah. So then those are the things that you don't necessarily know and you're researching a place you've never been without a dive guide. The, the divers could be in the water with us, but they couldn't guide us. So you're also navigating a place that you've never been. You don't, you know, about this reef, but you don't know where to go.

52:41 And so they're misses in there, um, with that sort of thing. Um, and some of that was, was stressful. Like, and you're, you know. Having a local guide who knows exactly where to expect the raging current is pretty helpful. And when you're, when you're diving an at hole in the Indian Ocean at like the convergence point of major currents, yeah, that's great. For lots of sharks and rays, you know? Yeah. That's also really challenging when you just hop in the water and look around like, all right, where, you know, where do I find the cleaning station with the thres? It's like, and I don't think there's any two people like, or in terms of us, like I would've, there's probably no one else I would've gone with over Brendan just because I knew he was a good scientist and he is a shark biologist, um, much more so than I am, and he's a good diver.

53:28 Like those, that combination is a winning combination, right? I mean, you've gotta be a very experienced diver to go to the locations we did to be able to do them well without struggling and, and to be able to stay focused on the objectives while also diving like that's not to be taken lightly. There was some very difficult conditions we were in. Absolutely. And, and that's what I was gonna ask. I was, what I was wondering through watching this show is. Did they, did the production company require a certain level of diving or a certain number of hours? Like did you have to have like your dive master or instructional, or did you have to have like your scientific divers, like I know in the US they do scientific diving, like the, was it the, the aaas SI think is, is the, the does scientific diving, did you have to have a certain accreditation accreditation for diving to even be on the show?

54:15 They definitely asked everybody for their level of expertise and had some sort of a metric for that. Um, I think everybody came in with something slightly different 'cause like, okay, I think Brendan toot, I was, I was A-A-A-U-S is what it is, American Science, a water science. So I was that all through my PhD. Um, and then that, but that ex that expires six months after course, you, you don't keep, um, keep that up. And so, um, yeah, I mean I think they used a loose justification for it. Everybody had to be confident and say, you know, I'm, I'm confident diver. Um, but there was. Certainly various levels of, of yeah. Experience and comfort in these different environments. And, and again, other than like one little breath thing that we can't figure out what happened to Brendan.

54:59 We, we think we have a reason Oh, right. Why it happened to Maldi. Yes. But that was the only slight, which is almost nothing difficulty we had in the entire time. And that wasn't 20 feet of water. There was no real risk there other than the tiger sharks. Right. Right. I mean, well, I think that's the other thing too. A lot of people would be like, well, yeah, you're diving and you're diving in these amazing spots. The cinematography was amazing. Mm-hmm. But you're also diving with sharks. Like you have to be comfortable having, like, you guys had, what, how big were the tiger sharks when, when you saw them? They were what, 10, three and a meters? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. They're most, they're mostly, um. Pregnant females, they get a lot of pregnant females in the day, or females in general. So they're definitely adult reproductively capable, um, sharks and so they're all very large.

55:44 Yeah. So you have to be comfortable with seeing those in the water. 'cause like everybody, it was really cool 'cause everybody who saw, like all the divers who saw sharks, like, oh, I got a shark. 'cause they were so in tune to winning this contest. But then like I, I've watched it with some people like, like, but that's a tiger. Like that's a tiger shark in there. That's a bull like in Bimini when, when you get like the bull sharks, like there's bull sharks there. Like, what are you guys doing? Or there's like a hammerhead there. But I thought it, it also showed. That wasn't the focus of the show was being afraid of the sharks. Mm-hmm. Right. There were a few spots where people were concerned and, um, there was, I, I forget the, the, the name of the woman who had previously been bitten by a lemon shark, uh, in, in bi Sarah, yeah, Sarah.

56:24 And then she did the brave thing of going back in, like even my anxiety was up, you know, watching her go and being like, wow, that, that takes a lot of guts to, to go back in after that. I mean, obviously that's a, that's a very significant injury that she had. And then to go back in, it was really cool. But what the focus wasn't necessarily on how dangerous these sharks are. The focus was like, oh, this is amazing. I'm gonna get this many points. Or what I loved is the diversity of sharks. I don't think we've ever seen that on a, on a program in one program. So one of the, one of the things, and I'll let Brendan add onto this, but you know, we, we had two things going on. You've mentioned before, Andrew, the Tiger shark was worth three points in the Maldives, worth a lot more points and say Bi Eve or Galapagos.

57:06 Right. One of the cool things. In regards to that is that the, you know, a species that's circum, tropical, you know, that you can see in all these different places. It's cool. We're dropping in here, we're dropping in there, we're seeing the same species, but in a completely different environment. Versus the other thing that you just brought up was the diversity of sharks and a lot of endemic species that occur only in South Africa only. Um, right. You know, in this area, that area. And so being able to see those things juxtaposed as scientists, especially dropping in from one part of, uh, the world to another in rapid succession. 'cause we, we filmed all this in two months. Like there was no break. And I think people have asked that question. So we were just dropping in from one extreme to the next. Um. And that, that to me was the focus.

57:47 Like there was conditions that were, you know, Brendan and I had discussions, especially like South Africa of things being a little sketchy at times. Low visibility white shark highway. Um, so we, we had to make some of those. I love that. That was third. I mean, they all, they all take part, but that was like, that was like, it's white shark. Like this is cold. And then white sharks. And then white sharks. Yeah. So we had to consider all that. Like there's a healthy respect for, for the environment that we're in sharks as part of that, the conditions a major part of that. Um, and all that had to be taken into consideration, well above some competition, right? Our wives are not worth television.

58:28 And, and that was also a concession that we, you know, that we had. So, yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing. Go ahead. Uh, Brendan, you were gonna say something? I'm just, I, I completely agree. We always had that at the forefront of our minds is like looking after ourselves and the, the. The teams in the water were so strong. Like all the underwater camera operators are amazing. Yeah. And so on any given dive, you know, it would be the two teammates, the underwater camera person, and then usually a local dive master who, like Chris said, is kind of just hanging off in the background. Um, right. They're there, but they're not able to guide you.

59:08 Um, and so a lot of this was, it wasn't just like me and Chris relying on each other. It would be like, yeah. We felt a very strong bond with the underwater cameramen as well. Um, because also in some of these places, you might not speak the same language as the dive master, and so like, there's a communication barrier and, and you're in a new place. And so it's nice to be with that third person where like, you really, you're doing it together and we, yeah. We got better at this. If any of them are listening, they're laughing right now because we were, we were just absolute menas to them because we were like sprinting through, like we'd swim an entire bay on scuba, hop out, drop the gear, get back in the boat, go swim.

59:51 You guys were like, I wanna win this. Yeah. Oh yeah. We were, we were militant about it. Yeah. Whatever we were doing, they were working twice as hard. 'cause they're pushing a giant camera rig and trying to get, not only like, they don't just need a photo, they need us in the frame with the animals that's swimming away, you know? And so I think we got better. Hopefully they'd agree. I think we got better at like trying to coordinate better with them. Yeah. Keeping, keeping the show in mind and what was needed for the show in mind. Mm-hmm. Whether that was like, you know, maybe we don't need to give an underwater lecture at this site. Maybe they just need like a short soundbite that wraps it up in a sentence.

1:00:33 Or if we position ourselves here, then they can get the shark with us behind it. And so it was, there was like very much a team atmosphere, at least within each boat. Uh, yeah, as we went from location to location. That's great. And, and you probably needed that cameraman too, right? To be like, I need you to get this shark, because let's be honest, like they probably slowed a lot of the stuff down that, that you guys saw when you were taking the photographs. But that doesn't happen in the ocean. Some of these sharks are moving quite fast. If they see you, boom, they, they might be gone. Uh, things happen a lot faster than we think when, when you're in the ocean, uh, and when you see it on, on camera. Yeah. So that's, and that was a big thing too. I mean, we're, we're in a competition. We're like super hyper-focused on that, but at the same time, recognizing that.

1:01:17 We are here to produce a show, so we can't do one without the other. Sure. And and a lot of times, like you see something awesome and it'd be like, we gotta get the cameraman over here. 'cause it's not that Brendan and I didn't separate at times. Right. We tried to stay close, but currents and, and yeah. You know, um, wanting to explore and, and see things differently, you know? Um, yeah, for sure. And, and then also just the, in terms of how they did it, they also rotated the production teams, the cameramen, they, they rotated in between the teams. So that one team got stuck with the same group, our production team the entire time, which I think also benefited, uh, the producers. Right. So again, for sure, they had to put certain people with us that wanted to chase us for, for eight hours a day.

1:02:00 Yeah. Yeah. I was like, these guys are known. They, we know what they're doing. We gotta go after we were well known. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You're gonna have Olympic swimmers following you with, you know, just to get to catch up to you guys. Yeah. Well even that's awesome. It was a lot of fun. A lot of fun with them too, because we almost had our own little side games with them each day where their goal was to get shots of sharks with us in the foreground that we didn't see or take pictures of, you know? Right, right. 'cause like Chris and I talked about this in advance, like the team that we fear the most in a competition like this would be if you took like two of these cameramen and made them a team, and so Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Because they have eye. Right.

1:02:40 They know what to what they're looking for. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why when we, we were asked early on who we feared the most and or who we thought would, would take the competition. We, we said Dan and Sarah, and part of that for me is Dan's a underwater cameraman. We're like, yep. He, he's got a lot of experience in the water looking for sharks. We, we knew they were gonna be, you know, one of the top teams for sure. Absolutely. And the irony, the irony of how audiences feel about dam's, Dan's camera work in those first few episodes. It is. Oh yeah. I, I think it's really funny. It, like, it's great comic relief, but Dan is actually a great underwater camera man. Right, right. 'cause what happens when you're so hyper-focused on your, your craft is that becomes your focus.

1:03:21 Whereas for us, we were, we're not underwater photographer, so we were just clicking and shooting with our GoPro or whatever. We didn't care how it turned out. We just cared that we got the shot. He's looking at lighting, trying to get a good, he's looking at lighting light. We don't care about that. We're here to win a show and not best picture. Can you see it? Can you see it there? Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Count that one. That's good. I love it. Look, I have, I, you know, as I mentioned, I was a big proponent of the show. Uh, I wanted to spread it around just even locally in, in my own city. I have good friends of mine who have recently watched this, and one of the, one of the, the, the young girl is watching it right now. Um, hence why I'm not giving, we're not gonna do any kind of spoilers, but they did. I asked them, I said, if you have questions, let me know. 'cause I'm talking to two, two of the people who were on the, on the podcast.

1:04:04 So, uh, one, uh, uh, is is Evan, he's, he's, uh, an 11-year-old and he said, uh, he want to know if the two of you were ever scared while in the water, whether it be sharks or just in the water itself. You, you dove in some pretty. Beautiful places, but as you mentioned, some challenging areas. You know, I remember Japan had the, the current, right. That was like, that was crazy. Even the host went in after to check it out and be like, yeah, this is, this is pretty dangerous. Were there, was there any part in like any of the, the, um, the, the places where you were, uh, did the, were you ever scared at any point? Credible? There's one that comes to mind for me. Yeah. Uh, the, the first thing that jumped to mind was one particular shark, actually.

1:04:49 Um, and this goes back to the risk we were talking about earlier. Like Chris and I have, there's, I don't know, there's a weird, there's a weird trajectory that you take, I think in a career like this from going, I find like students that you just get in the water the first time, they'll hop in with a tiger shark and just think it's the most fun ever. And they're not a, because they haven't seen what an animal like that is actually capable of when it wants to, that there's not enough respect. Mm-hmm. And then. It, it just changes throughout your career. And I think both of us at this point are like, there's a very healthy level of respect. 'cause when you see a tiger shark take down like three giant poly balls, it's the amount of power some of these animals have is Oh yeah.

1:05:29 You cannot overstate like they can move. Right. We're nothing to them, you know? Yeah. They just don't choose to ever behave that way in normal circumstances with people. Right. Which is great for us as people who like to die with them. But once in a while you find an animal that is not in good shape and it's, you know, it's in dire straits. And it, there's one, one Galapagos shark. And just to be clear, this is after diving, we were, I don't know, there were, we maxed out on Galapagos Sharks on every dive. Like I think you did. Yeah. There's, there's 50 of 'em on every dive in the Galapagos and none of them gave us a second look. Right. And then we were snorkeling around, uh, Darwin's pillars in the shallows.

1:06:09 We spent a lot of time snorkeling there and it was. Just go like I, it's so beautiful. There's so much life. Yeah. And it's really cool to see. Like the, the hammerhead and the Galapagos are awesome when you're on a wall and they're off in the blue, but then in the shallows around those big kind of rocky outcrops mm-hmm. They'll just come in and cruise in like threes and fours along the sandy kind of sand rocky bottom. Um, and they're in maybe 20, 30 feet of water and they'll turn and look up at you. And so it's just a whole, it's a completely different perspective. So we, yeah. In all these places, we tried for points or not to just explore, like, we'll never go back. Mm-hmm. And so we were doing that swimming around the island, and this one Galapagos shark just started tracking us from the sea floor.

1:06:55 Um, and it had, it was very, like, it had a misshapen pectoral fin. I think it had some trailing wire leader, like it had been caught, maybe it hadn't been able to successfully catch prey in a while. Um, it looked pretty emaciated and very banged up. And it just tracked us in a way that. The, you know, the hair on your neck stands up, you feel like a prey item. Hmm. Wow. And it's very important, I think once you've been in the water enough, you encounter those animals. Yeah. And then I think is when you're at like a healthy level of respect of like, yeah, 99% of the time there's no problem here, but there's always the chance. You never know what is in the water with you on a particular day. And recognizing that animal as different from all the others, we all got out and we moved.

1:07:39 Right. And I think that's where like all the experience we've had comes into play. And, and I just, anytime we talk to anyone like, or with the public, I just, it's very important to emphasize like those scenarios exist, you know, and those, it's good to know when to get outta the water. So I was, yeah, I was shaken up a little by that animal. I didn't wanna be in with them anymore. Brendan and I both looked at, we both looked at each other and just kind of like understood, you know? Yeah. Like, we're out, that we needed to get out. And, and then in that same relative environment, the shallows is, and I don't think the, the filming of that quite did it justice, but the massive tiger shark that we encountered in, in about six feet of water in the Galapagos, um, likely feeding along the shores.

1:08:22 And it came out in, you know, just head up on me. Brendan was a little bit off to the side. Um, and it really caught me by surprise. Like, people don't regularly see tiger sharks in the Galapagos. That's why there were a crap ton of points. Right, right. And we didn't, we didn't expect to, we, that's not what we were there looking for. And all of a sudden, like, oh God. So I had two things going through my mind. One was like, oh crap. Like that's a freaking massive tiger shark that was likely just feeding and, and like this is a way different experience than the Maldives where they're. Seemingly a bit more controlled. And then the next part of me is like, I gotta get a picture of this. This is worth a lot of points. We still got a game to play here. So we got a picture of that, had a moment with it and we got out too because that was another one that was a bit off.

1:09:05 Um, and that, that scenario, it was like that shark was just doing normal shark things. It was entirely right. It was us recognizing we are in this place where it doesn't expect us and it's probably feeding, like probably hunting turtles or maybe maybe this fur seals that are kind, there's a lot of bubbles. The environment's very turbulent. It was just like, this is the tiger shark was the most scarred up. Shark I've ever seen. Like it looked like it had been in some battles, this thing was gnarly. Um, when I talk about it, I referenced Scar from Lion King. Is it just looking? I've been through some stuff and like, interesting. And it was just a way different experience. But yeah, again, it's that respect and that knowledge thing we're running like, okay, well, and, and we're in one of the most remote places in the world, right?

1:09:51 Yeah. Out in the middle of Ecuadorian Waters in the Galapagos. And, um, you know, you don't wanna mess around in a place like that where you're so far away from any absolutely. Medical treatment if something does happen. So, no, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, I think, I think our experience, we, and I think the thing with the experience in, in these areas too, um, there's never really a sense of panic. It's kind of like, okay, now we, we can react to this and then figure out our best path, but it's never a panic, right? Yeah. So that, so fear, I don't know if I would ever use the word fear, but definitely like awareness and respect. Yeah. Um, to get out when it, enough to know to get. Yeah. Um, 'cause we also had some incredible, you know, experiences with other things that were unexpected, like orcas and, um, humpback whales.

1:10:33 Yeah. So we were known as the mammal people, and Dan made a comment, I think in the last episode, like, oh, they're gonna get distracted by, by, you know, orcas again. Like that, that's what we were known for. And, and Herron Island, um, you know, these humpback wells that were over wintering there in, in the, um, on, on the reef. Brendan and I were able to head them up and this didn't make the show, but we, um, we were able to swim right alongside with them. We took time outta the day during the competition. We're like, screw it. This is again, once in a while, bucket list, just like the orcas bucket bucket list. So, swam along with two humpback wells for a while, just like we did the orcas for like 30 minutes. Um, yeah, a little, little, you know, the humpback wells was its own beast of an experience. Yeah. Orcas. We had a little baby and two likely females, um, come up and, and just.

1:11:15 Check us out for, I don't know. I mean, it felt like 30 minutes, it might've been five minutes, but it, it was like, doesn't matter. Those were two experiences beyond the sharks that yeah, I will never, ever forget. And I was so happy to do it with Brendan too, in, in these places because it was just awesome. Yeah, no, absolutely. That's, that sounds amazing. That was actually one of my other questions was like, what was the coolest thing you saw other than sharks? Would you put those two experiences as probably the coolest things? Oh, I mean, absolutely. Brendan and I, we couldn't stop talking about the whales afterwards and the producers like, stop talking about the whales, sharks, sharks. And by the time we got to the Galapagos where we saw the orcas, we were chasing a bait ball. Um, and they happened to be there.

1:11:57 So we, we were, um, at Darwin because it's more likely to see whale sharks there. That's why we both, you know, we know Dan and Sarah went there, that episode two and gave up while we're, we're pretty confident that the reason the whale sharks weren't there is because these orcas of the orcas, they were known shark predator. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we had an incredible time with 'em. Um, I mean, there's nothing in the world more incredible than having these animals that are the apex predators in the, in, in, in an environment, in an ecosystem. Come and check you out within like a foot of you having a, a, a juvenile, um, orca come and, and just having have a moment with you. 'cause they're looking at you just as much as you're looking at them in curiosity.

1:12:37 This is a while there. They probably haven't seen a lot of people. If, if any, your heart must have been beating out of your chest. Beating out of our chest. And, and you know that they can see that too. They can feel that too. They're like, yeah, this is pretty cool for us too. And then mom comes up underneath from the depths of the blue, like, okay, you guys are safe. We won't do anything. Yeah, we won't, we won't discipline, you know, our, our young here. Um, but Brendan and I, we made the decision. We saw these ORs we're like. Once in a lifetime, man. Like, I'm we're you got it. We get in the water and we stay with it for quite a while. Yeah. So those are things I think, um, you know, we talk about being scientists and in the field and stuff. There's certain things where you just can't, you can't pay you enough. No. Not to be out there for these types of things.

1:13:19 Right. Like, it's just, it's the memories that you'll have for, for life. You'll be telling, you know, children and grandchildren and nieces and nephews and everybody who you see like, yeah, I got to dive with humpbacks and, and orcas and, uh, you know, orcas around a bait ball too. That's pretty, that's pretty cool. Even just being around a bait ball. That, that was pretty incredible, uh, to be around. So I just thought, uh, that was cool. Now getting back to the sharks, like you guys got to see a lot of cool sharks. What was your favorite, we'll start, Brendan, we'll start with you. What was your favorite shark that you saw? Favorite shark species would've been, I'd say this, South Africa was the most surprising location for me because I'd never. I've been to South Africa, but only diving in a place called Wan Bay, which is like up in the northeastern corner.

1:14:04 And South Africa's really interesting because there's this warm water current that comes from the tropics down along that, uh, eastern side of Africa. So warm water coming down, and then cold water coming north from Antarctica. And so you have so many different ecosystems in close proximity. So even though I'd been there, I'd only been diving on like clear, warm, tropical reefs. So then when we get to Port Elizabeth, it's not that at all. You know, it's like rugged coastlines, rocky reefs, bad visibility, cold water that makes for very abundant marine life. You know, it's just packed with nutrients. There's animals everywhere.

1:14:44 There's penguins, there's also humpback whales, like right off the beach. Um, there are obviously white sharks hanging out there. Yeah, but the coolest for me, there were the endemics, like the little shy sharks and cat sharks that don't occur anywhere else that are just so beautiful. Um, and they were so interested in the bait that we were offering them, that they'd come just out of the woodwork. Like when you find them without bait their face into a ledge, you know, just kind of hanging out quietly during the day. Often stacked up like three to 10 in a pile. Um, but as soon as there's a little bit of sardine oil in the water, they smell it and they all come rushing.

1:15:27 And so then you've got just all these tiny little like one to two foot long catch sharks and shy sharks cruising around. Um, that's pretty cool. And yeah, so for me, the leopard catch shark just absolutely beautiful species. I think the cool, I mean, I love seeing it, but I think also it speaks to the point of the show, like mm-hmm. Sharing that species with people as a shark that. I'd never seen a photo of, I probably didn't know it existed before going there, and then suddenly we're bringing that to people on their couches in a place like Wisconsin or Kentucky. Um, you know, that is, that's pretty awesome. Very happy with that one. And I'll, I'll keep mine short.

1:16:07 I, I just, I feel like I answered this question differently. Everyone, every time someone asked me, because I, you remember different sharks that you've seen right? Re remember different sharks. Every, every place we went to had its own magical appeal. I mean, we were going to some of the most biodiverse, many times protected areas for sharks and rays on the planet. So we're seeing the best of the best and it's really hard to compare and contrast. So for me, yeah, I, I bring up South Africa quite often too because of all the endemics, the puff had a shy shark was one I was really excited to see. Um, and again, like Brendan said, a lot of times people don't even know these are sharks. I ones that I had never seen and I had only recently read about. Right. Um, as, as our, um.

1:16:48 Are planning into the trip. So yeah, some of the animals that I would've never seen or knew existed as much as that probably appealed to the public, also appealed to us as scientists. Mm-hmm. In, in this field. And then, you know, as the wedge fish in, in, um, in Australia there's the, the wbe I had been in Australia 20 years prior to, and then saw quite a few wabe gongs in a completely different part of Australia. And, and I think when, when Brendan found this one, the tased wabe gong on our dive, I'm just, that I could have spent all day just there. Right. Um, just watching that, that little dude. Um, and then, and then there's also the favorite dives and then there's like the, the tiger shark and the Galapagos honestly was like a, as kind of freaky as that experience was.

1:17:30 It was one of my favorite moments. 'cause it was so exciting. It was a, a, a, you know, we're in a competition, so it's not just the sharks, it's also like, oh my God. Like this is where so many points, so your start heart starts racing because of that. So that emotional attachment ends up being part of your experience. On top of the fact that you're seeing cool animals in cool places. So hard for me to answer that, but, um, no, for sure. I mean, you guys got to like, every place that I kept hearing them say, I was like, oh man, that is so cool. Like, oh really? Oh, that's awesome. Like, it's, it's, uh, it's a, it's a trip of a lifetime. Uh, an experience of a lifetime. Let me ask you this. When it was all said and done, after you had watched the show, I'm sure a sigh of relief kind of came out 'cause you knew how it came out.

1:18:12 Uh, were you, were you happy with the way it turned out? I should ask that first. Um, I can start Brendan. Um, yes. I, I think ultimately we were, we were very pleased. I was very pleased with the way the, the show came out. I mean, two major goals, you know, for this one, have an adventure of a lifetime. Yeah. One of my best friends, like, there's nothing else that I could have spent two months doing that would've probably been better than this adventure that we were on together. And then as a, as a second thing is the reason why we probably really did it, especially in in our busy lives and careers, is we wanted to have a, a bigger conservation platform. You know? Mm-hmm. We continued to do things as shark docs after the fact, and, um, yep.

1:18:53 We encourage people to, to follow us and check that out because we're, yeah. We'll put that link in the, to, in please do show notes. Yeah. We're continuing to build on that conservation platform, which is one of our intentions. We both do a lot of good work through our, um, our current positions in our, in our jobs, but we wanted to have something different, and so for us, this was storytelling in a way that we couldn't do it on our own, and the whole edutainment sort of, yeah. Concept that we've learned about, as, you know, feeding people accidental knowledge when they're not expecting it, kind of a concept. So I think we've just been really trying to figure out what our next move is to, to keep building off of that, you know, the, the peak of the show and, and probably like the excitement around it is starting to wane a little bit, but we're trying to continue to build off of that and, and figure out, you know, what else we can do to continue to, yeah.

1:19:40 Explore and really push positive conservation messaging as we both feel. We have a lot to, to offer in that field. How about you, Brendan? Were you happy with the overall turnout and then your experience after? Yeah, I was, you know, none of us knew, none of the contestants knew during filming that this was gonna turn into a family show. Um, it sounds like the producers had that in mind and it, it's a genius move. You know, shark Week, shark Fest often have a lot of like more dramatic scenes and some blood and stuff like that and it's scary for kids. Yeah. And so the folks at Netflix realized, like, you know, how great would it be for families to be able to watch a show about sharks where they don't have to be afraid?

1:20:27 Where every encounter is positive and people are excited about it. Yeah. And so I. I didn't know that that was coming. And so the response we've had from kids, like, like these kids that you know, who are asking some of these questions, um, has just been amazing. Like if, if we have a fan base at all, it's, it's like 11 to 13-year-old boys who are just pumped about sharks and, and science and diving. And, um, I think the, the current statistics that I've heard is that it was number, the show was number one in Netflix, family in like over 50 countries. Um, so if you had told mes that that's what would happen if we participated, or like, if that's how good the show would do when we had that initial contract, I would've just signed it on the spot.

1:21:17 Yeah. You know, so, yeah, for sure. Yeah. We, I know different people have like different criticisms of it, and a lot of 'em are valid. Like we, yeah, you can, you can poke holes in anything but overall like forest through the trees. Incredible job. We're so thrilled to have been a part of it. Um, and hopefully this is just another like, contribution among all these random things that we do that's on the positive side of the equation. Would you do, would you both, uh, do show similar or other shows like documentaries, uh, say like from Shark Fest or even Shark Week again or something new, like do a television show again, but in like a different type.

1:22:00 Like if, I guess if all the Sharks asked you to do it again, would you do it again? All the sharks, yes. 'cause now we want to, to trust the producers right. To us. I think it's gonna be more of the same. Like, um, we're gonna be very carefully vetting any opportunity that comes our way because we're not going to, of course I'm not, I don't wanna speak for Brendan. I'm not gonna be quick to, to jump into something without really understanding what it is. Um. And I'll take any role that's offered. Yeah. Right. That is not the Yeah, right. Well, if it's, well, if it's something that ridiculous like sharknato, you know, that it's, oh, I think, you know, people know not to take it seriously. It's this fine line between something that could be be real in something that's not, that really, you've gotta be careful, you've gotta be careful with that.

1:22:45 So, yeah. I mean, ultimately there's a major, um, the excitement that, that surrounded this over a, a paper that, you know, I've published is way different. Right. Um, you just, you gain the attention of a whole new audience that you wouldn't get in just the science field. So I think things like this are necessary Yeah. To reach a broader audience. But again, it has to be done carefully. And I think these, the, the producers of this show. Did it Well, and, and I, I hope there's a future for this. 'cause I, I think, yeah, it was well received. Um, but, you know, it's a, it's a game of, um, of money to a lot of these major networks too. And, and so if they can't, I don't know. I'm, I'm hopeful that, that things like this, if not this show in particular, uh, will have more seasons.

1:23:28 But I think they're going in a good positive direction that both Brendan and I mm-hmm. Can, um, align with. I agree. I was very, uh, relieved to see. This show come out on Netflix. They've had a couple of other programs, uh, that we will not be mentioning. I've mentioned on this, on this program before that I have, you know, as scientists, we haven't been, I haven't been very happy with in the past. I can't speak for, for everybody, but, uh, I know other scientists who haven't. Uh, and so it's nice to have something that's positive. It's nice to have something family oriented, especially about sharks to really change that narrative, especially for, for young kids about sharks and really bring back that curiosity. A lot of sort of like the voices that you guys were saying.

1:24:10 Uh, you know, every time you saw a shark, every time you see an overhang or like, oh, this is cool. I've never seen one of these before, and all this kind of stuff, I think. That really helped bring that, it showed that passion that, that all of you had, um, especially the two of you to, to be able to get to this. And I think the strategy that you had, I think was fun. 'cause it really gamified it, you know, it showed that, yeah, this was still a competition and uh, I thought you guys did, uh, a very good job. Uh, everybody, all the contestants did a very good job at, at coming around and getting the, the motion across that science is fun. It's all about curiosity, it's about exploring, um, using that scientific mind of yours and, and really getting into it, but also using that creative mind and, and doing a big, like a, it is a fairly big production and so it's a really cool thing that you guys got to do and I'm really happy you, you were able to do that and.

1:24:54 Being a part of a show that shows so many sharks. I thought that was really cool. So I appreciate all this and, and I'm, I'm not a shark scientist. I do have another podcast beyond John. We'll have to have you guys on individually get your full careers on with, with, uh, David Ebert, um, who is someone that if, if, if they're having another season, I don't know if they're having another season, that's the guy you call because he knows where every shark is everywhere, so, absolutely. You know, that's the Well, we're also scared of who else they would bring in for a second season. Somebody like him might be very dangerous to, to see the kids seen. Yeah. I had the same conversation with, with Mike Hit house and, um, Yas Papa too. And I'm just like, if you guys were part of the show. That's gonna be Oh yeah. I told, I told David he was on there. He goes, oh, he goes, he goes, if I could scuba dive like I used to, he's like, I would be on that show in a second, you know, but he'd be too busy, like identifying them all.

1:25:42 He'd be like going, he'd probably find a new species out there. Exactly. He wouldn't care about the competition anymore. He's like, just get to these locations. Yeah. Every location he goes. He is just, that's new. I don't know what that is, but that's new. I'm gonna tell you that. Right. I can see the, the, the cameraman just being like, I don't know. I don't know what this is. We'll just get shark. So, we'll, well, you know, the quick work to, um, the quick work of the production team too, keep in mind like all these, um, species that we identified and had and had to get validated or verified, um, they were going off to experts to, and turning those around. In a very quick period of time. So there was a lot of planning that went into that. Yeah. If we're gonna new areas and, and species that a lot of us had not experienced and we had to get those like, oh, we think that's what it is.

1:26:27 We're sure that's what it is. But they had to verify that to give us points. So that was, it was a big job on their part. And I did love the cards, like of the, the, the post editing, uh, team did the cards of like showing what species is where it is and all that kind of stuff. I thought that was, uh, that was really cool what they were able to do and, and provide that educational source. Don't tell 'em, but I still have a couple cards. Oh, that's awesome. That is so cool. That is so much fun. Right on. Don't tell 'em I have those. But guys, this has been fantastic. It's really been fun to get to know you all. I really appreciate you coming on and giving us your experience. Um, and I just think it's, it's phenomenal. I'd love to have both of you back on together individually to share the science that you guys do, um, and get to know a little bit more about that as we go, as we go forward.

1:27:12 So thank you so much for, for coming on the show. Thanks for having us. Awesome, Andrew. Yeah. Appreciate you. You bet. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Brendan, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. It was really great to be able to, you know, get a peek into the journey and behind the scenes of a production like this. This is something that is pretty new to a lot of people, including myself. Not necessarily TV production, but also like looking at a reality show that has a positive outcome that looks at positive things, and that is very challenging from a diving perspective, I am not an experienced diver, to say the least. I've gone diving a number of times, but I wouldn't say that I've seen a lot of different scenarios like they did in these challenging waters where there, you know, Japan was a lot of currents we saw in South Africa.

1:27:56 It was cold as well as the visibility wasn't that great. As you can see, it was green water, but very productive as Brendan mentioned. It was just really cool and I think something that we should all check out sometime if you're divers and something to look out for if you're a diver or scientist or underwater photographer, underwater camera person. I would love to hear what your thoughts were about the show. Did you love the content? Did you love the diving experience? Did you love the cinema photography? Did you not like it? Love to hear your thoughts. Let me know in the comments below if you're listening to this on YouTube, or you can hit me up through my email by going to speak up for blue.com/contact, and then you can DM me on Instagram at How to Protect the Ocean. And obviously I will have all the links so you can connect with Chris and Brendan in the show notes.

1:28:37 So check those out and check out all the sharks if you have it on Netflix. It's a really great show, a lot of fun. Six episodes I binged in one night, and it was a lot of fun to see. So that's it for today's episode. Thank you again to Brendan and Chris. We really appreciate you guys for listening to this and we'd love to have you back for more episodes. To learn more about the ocean, I wanna thank you for joining me on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the True Nord Strong and Free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.