The Ocean Agency You’ve Never Heard Of, But Depend On Every Day

0:00 What if the most important agencies protecting your food, your weather forecasts, your safety, and the ocean was being cut apart and most people still do not know what it does? Today, we are talking about NOAA, the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration, and why it matters, what is at risk, and why people everywhere should care. This is the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, your weekday news update. If you care about staying informed on the ocean every weekday, hit that follow button right now so you don't miss tomorrow's story. Today's episode is a special interview with Jeff Waters from the Ocean Conservancy. Now Jeff works at the intersection of ocean policy, government funding, and public advocacy.

0:44 He helps translate what happens in Washington into what it actually means for the ocean, coastal communities, wildlife, and to be honest, everyday people. In my interview with Jeff, we break down what NOAA really does, why so many people depend on it without even realizing it and what recent cuts could mean to the administration and why protecting public science infrastructure matters far beyond the coastline. If you have ever checked out the weather, eaten seafood, cared about marine life, or wondered who was watching over the oceans, this conversation is for you. So let's get into it. Here's the interview with Jeff Waters from the Ocean Conservancy. Enjoy, and I will talk to you after.

1:27 Hey Jeff, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about NOAA? Of course, thanks for having me. You bet, I'm excited. This is a very important interview because I've talked about all the cuts that have happened to NOAA, but I've also talked over the 11 years that I've been doing this podcast about the benefits that NOAA brings to not only the US, but to the world really in terms of the research that it does, the work that it does, the services that it provides for safety and so forth. So we're going to get into all of that, but we're also going to talk about what's happening with NOAA since this latest presidential administration has gone in and made severe cuts to many of the programs. I've had, you know, full disclosure. I've had some, a lot of friends who are out of work because of it that were doing amazing work. And I feel like online and just people in general really don't have a good grasp of what NOAA does. And so what I want this interview to be where you and I, we're going to talk about the benefits of NOAA.

2:25 We've been talking about the benefits of NOAA in these episodes leading into this, but also just what it brings, what it is, and what people need to understand about NOAA that's so important for us, not only as like for people of American citizens, but for the world and that we need to support them more and the government needs to support them. So we're going to get into all of that, but Jeff, before we do, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do. Well, thanks. So I, in my work life, I'm the guy who goes into the depths of the government to figure out what the heck is actually happening, right? So I'm the guy who goes along with my team and my colleagues who are fantastic here at Ocean Conservancy. You know, we go into the budget spreadsheets, we go into the appropriations bills, the legislation, the OMB spending spreadsheets, and we try to translate that into what it actually means for the ocean, what it means for people, what it means for communities, what it means for ocean wildlife, because at the end of the day, what happens in Washington, D.C. matters for everyone, including the coast and including the oceans.

3:29 And so, but in terms of who I am, in terms of my role, I'm the vice president of external affairs here at Ocean Conservancy. So I oversee our government relations team, our international government relations team, and our Florida program. So whether it's the state, federal, international level, you know, really helping our teams to do the advocacy that we need to do on behalf of the ocean. I can imagine you and your team must be so detail oriented to sift through all those line items in the budget and all the policies that are going through. Like, it's not easy work to go through amendments and regulations. And it's not exciting reading, let's be honest, to many of us, right?

4:11 You're not reading a novel or nonfiction novel or whatnot. You're reading like some pretty dry stuff, but to get through it all and to put it into a kind of like a product, I guess, or something that we could all understand of what's happening and bring it down to try and simplify it as much as possible, as complex as a lot of these things are. I think that's really important. Now, you've spent your career at the intersection of science and policy. But what like what first pulled you into ocean policy, especially growing up in the Midwest, you grew up in, I believe it was Illinois you mentioned before we press record. What called you to get that coastal envy? Because I've had it too. I grew up in Ontario. I have the Great Lakes and you might have a piece of the Great Lakes.

4:56 Great Lakes. But the ocean call is a different call. So what brought you that that call? I mean, it's funny you say coastal envy because that's literally the phrase that I use when I explain things to people. Yeah, I'm a kid from the Midwest to grow up with coast envy. I wish I lived by the beach and never had the chance to. We would go down to Florida every year as a family and do our family vacation. And so that was the sliver of the ocean that I got to experience every year. When I went to the University of Wisconsin, Madison, I went there for undergrad and for graduate school. And for grad school, I went there for limnology and marine science. That limnology is like basically lakes and streams and rivers and wetlands. So I got to play around in all these great freshwater environments in northern Wisconsin.

5:42 And then the marine science part, which is where I did all of my research for my master's degree. My research focused on sea turtle bycatch in the Hawaii long line fisheries. So they'll swordfish and tuna fisheries. So every winter during grad school, I got to go to Hawaii and dig into the details of sea turtle bycatch issues. But I was hooked once I went into grad school. I was hooked on ocean issues and knew that that's what I wanted to spend my time. I wanted to spend my career doing. So you always grew up having that that that coastal envy going to Florida. Where did you go in Florida? Was it always the same place? Yeah, Madira Beach. So come here, St Pete. So yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like growing up in Toronto. You know, we go down there. Of course, he hit the Orlando for Disney World. And so for the one thing that I worked out of Louisiana and one thing I learned is Destin, Florida probably has the best beaches. But we don't not a lot of people from Canada. I hear go there. Oh, that's right.

6:40 I feel like that's more of a southern sort of destination. They kind of keep it quiet, but it's so beautiful. Probably some of the best beaches I've ever seen in the US. So so yeah, I just think it's hilarious how we always go to the same. And I don't know if you actually been down there in some of the state parks, but some of the coastal state parks where there's, you know, these barrier islands, Sandy, your islands that are completely undeveloped. You know, you're used to just seeing condos in these places. They're all built up. And so to be able to experience that in its natural state is really eye opening in terms of the beauty of that part of Florida. I'm going to tell you as a as a Canadian, the National Park System in the US is one I envy. I got we have a great National Park System here too. But I just love it. I think it's a great, great program, which obviously is also under fire at times. But it seems like a lot of a lot of Americans love their their national parks.

7:36 So hopefully that will will will stay intact. But you know, it's interesting because you you've you know, you mentioned that like I think it's funny how you chose like Hawaii to go. I don't obviously bycatch is important Hawaii as well. But I love how you chose Hawaii. I think that's a good good for you to do that. That that kind of fall in your lap with the master supervisor or do you actually seek it out being like, no, no, I want Hawaii. No, it totally fell. It fell on my lap. I wish I could say I was actually smart on my own. But no, it was an opportunity that that I just couldn't pass up. Gotcha. Yeah, it's twist your rubber arm. And they say, yeah, you're going to get in the winters. You're going to go to Hawaii, especially in being in Wisconsin.

8:16 Like it's pretty cold there. No, like for people who are hearing your name for the first time, because this is the first time. Hopefully we'll get we'll get you back on down the road to get more information on updates and stuff. What's happening with Ocean Conservancy? But what do they know about your experience that helps you understand sort of how Washington. Decisions affect the ocean. Yeah, it's a great question. So I, you know, after grad school, I had a fellowship actually through the Canals Sea Grant Fellowship program, which is a NOAA program. I was basically a fellow and on Capitol Hill for a year and then stayed on as a full time staffer for several years. And it was, you know, it was an eye opening experience in terms of the way government really works. How it can feel so inaccessible for people, but how it really is more and more accessible than you think. And that, you know, governance and politics. It is not a spectator sport. It feels really distant. It feels like it's hard to to impact. But at the end of the day, it's the people who show up and the people who make their case.

9:17 Person to person, human to human. It really is thousands and thousands of small conversations. And, you know, I think that's a it's a wonderful thing. It can be immensely frustrating because we live in a big country with a lot of people who have a lot of different beliefs that often, you know, can conflict with one another. But that human to human process is is just fascinating to me. And so to be able to do that on behalf of the ocean and on behalf of the environment, which I am deeply passionate about, it's just an honor to be able to do that every day. Well, and we appreciate the work you and your colleagues do because like you said, it's not always easy and you have to get to know a lot of people. You have to definitely smooth your way around Capitol Hill and understand what you're doing.

10:06 It can be a lot of fun. But you have to understand how it works and who to speak to. And so one of the things that the stories that I really like, I did an interview in a number of years ago and a gentleman that was on would say that he brings like a book of stories that he gets that he collects from people and he brings him and he goes to Democrats and Republicans alike. conversations with him over the relationships that he's built over the years with these politicians to have conversations be like hey Here's what I'm looking to do And these are all the people who are supporting what we're trying to do and they take it and they go back and they try And do their best but a lot of these these politicians are very environmental focused whether they're Republican or Democrats It's just a matter of what's what's being what line is being towed at that time and hopefully you get people on the right day So those relate that relationship building must be a big part of of your job and of you and your team's job, correct?

10:58 Yeah, I mean relationship building and to what you just said storytelling, right? Yeah, the story is how you open someone's mind and help them visualize and understand what it is that you're saying It's not about putting up charts that tell the facts of the world It's about telling a story that someone can relate to and wrap their heads around You know, sometimes people say that, you know Capitol Hill runs on anecdotes and it's really true But I think again, that's a that's a reflection of the very human nature of the process where you know The story is how you reach someone and are able to convince them It's not always about just you know, reciting talking points and facts and figures and data It's about telling a story that someone can understand Absolutely. It's going back to I'm not sure if you know Randy Olson his don't be such a scientist book where he talks about getting it to the gut of people getting to their emotions and Working on that instead of just the logic of sharing data like we do as scientists.

11:54 I think it's it's really important Yeah, now going back to your your master's degree with the sea turtle and bycatch project or thesis Did working with these types of marine animals? Did that like that change how you thought about like policy and conservation how important it could be? When when we're looking at you know bycatch and the regulations that go around bycatch especially around sea turtles I mean it was actually the working with the people part that change Oh interesting and really shaped the way I kind of view the world because you know The the sea turtle bycatch issue down there It was something that was you know, kind of popping in the late 90s and early 2000s Yeah, it's a big problem for the fleet.

12:35 There were a bunch of lawsuits. There were all sorts of administrative actions You know trying to find a solution to the bycatch issue You know so that the fleets could continue to fish and the turtles can continue to survive and it was a it was a real lesson in the importance of conflict In that, you know conflict drives creativity and solutions as painful as it can be But also the the potential for conflict to get out of hand and sometimes if you get mired in a fight Where it's not just about winning on your side It's about making sure the other side loses That can be a dangerous place and you can really lose sight of your your original goals and intent and what you're trying to do on behalf of the environment and on behalf of the world and so it taught me a lot about how conflicts can be a very constructive and innovative driven kind of force in our world but can also kind of get out of hand and can become very You know destructive if you don't kind of Go into it with a lot of thoughtful awareness Yeah, absolutely Absolutely and you know there's a lot of stuff that goes on like with these regulations that we look at these policies that we try and and Implement and and some have like we just in the US just celebrated I believe it's 50 years of the Magnuson-Stevenson's Act Which is probably one of the most successful fisheries acts in in the world at this point Bringing back a lot of fisheries that

14:06 were in trouble in the 1970s, which was brought in by Republicans I like to remind people in the 70s with a lot of those regulations the Marine Mail Protection Act and so forth And so we saw like the people were very Worried about the environment at that point Especially around fisheries that were declining and you know using those policies to bring them back But not only just putting the implementation and having you know advocates like yourself and the ocean Conservancy and and other you know ocean ocean focused and or or Big NGOs that look at these types of work and even small NGOs that make sure that the government is looking after this But the government itself, you know Evaluates how these regulations are doing and you know stays up to date on on fisheries and stock assessments and and so looking at marine Mammals are they being harassed? Are they not making sure those regulations are put in place?

14:56 It's a very important aspect and one of those bodies that does that within within the Within the US government is Noah the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration Now it's a mouthful to say and a lot of times I mess it up and probably I'm happy to say that I didn't mess That one up. We'll call it Noah from now on but Noah is a huge organization It's a huge department that sits within the US government and being Canadian I don't know exactly how it sits. I know it's part of the Department of Interior, but Actually the Department of Commerce commerce. That's right. There you go. Yeah, sorry So it's a very good example Exactly. So can you Jeff? Can you just talk about you know, what Noah is where it sits within that hierarchy?

15:38 And and how important it is for like for what Noah does and we'll get into obviously what it does But just how important it is. Yeah, I mean at the highest level I think of Noah as the eyes and ears of our ocean and our atmosphere It all boils down to that whether it's weather forecasts whether it's you know Trying to manage our fisheries sustainably so that the seafood that lands on your plate When it's wild caught in the US is is sustainable Whether it is ocean monitoring marine sanctuaries like the eyes and the ears of the ocean and the atmosphere And and the planet as a whole and so, you know, it does a lot and it's hard to Articulate all of the specific details of what you're done. So much. Yeah, but at the highest level it's our eyes and ears in the world And so you said it sits within Department of Commerce how and and why is it in the Department of Commerce? That's what I would love to know Yeah, so it was originally created as part of an executive order by President Nixon under the Nixon administration There's a long winding history about you know, where the fisheries service was and you know And is that part of commerce versus an interior there? You've also got you know, the various histories of you know, the the predecessors of Noah in terms of you know Surveys and ocean surveys and that sort of stuff And so, you know I can't speak to exactly why Nixon chose to put it in commerce the way he did other than that There's a long and winding history behind

17:11 that it has a lot to do with bureaucracy and the way bureaucracy evolves And it's constantly something that people are questioning, you know Does it belong in commerce? Should it is it a better fit if it was in interiors? Should some of the functions move over to over to interiors? So that's a that's a live discussion under both Democratic and Republican Administration, so it's a it's a good question and one that people keep asking for sure Well, yeah, cuz it's such a you know people when I think it's it's interesting because there's definitely a commerce side to the ocean The ocean has a lot of ecosystem services including fisheries and so forth that brings in a lot of money Especially in in the past when you had whaling and everything like that Obviously that's that's done now But it I think for now a lot of people when they think of ocean and atmosphere they think of protection and conservation less about money bring being brought in and commerce and revenue and so forth so I can understand where that where that comes from and where that That is and of course, you know with with executive orders You just never know what's gonna happen and what the thought process was back in the 1970s especially with the Nixon era and and and so forth and But I think it's I think it's really I think it's really interesting But you know, it's it's it's also interesting to look at just Noah in general, you know, cuz like a lot of people that they they they haven't really heard of Noah Yeah, I'm sure even in the US like there's like, you know, all is as big as they are They probably haven't heard of it and maybe really don't know what it does

18:42 You kind of talked about some of them in this and like and you talked about in the simple form But why should people care about having Noah around because I mean it's it right now You can talk a little bit about this, you know Noah a lot of the programs with a Noah are in question a lot of the budgets have been slashed some of the Noah Departments within Noah have been taken out So like why should people everyday Americans even know or just people around the world care that Noah exists today Yeah I mean Noah is like the silent force in your life that you don't even know is there until it's gone or until it's in trouble Like literally every single American uses and depends on Noah services Every single day without even knowing it because a lot of the times when you interact with You know Noah's dad our Noah services.

19:32 You don't see a Noah logo So you don't know that there's this agency behind it whether it's the seafood on your plate Whether it's your you know, your weather forecast on the local news. It's your local news station's logo That's on that not necessarily Noah and that national weather service But I'll give you like one great little example of like a way that an example of when Noah is Important in a way that you probably haven't even thought of so a number of years ago, you know Our house where we lived was on this the short little street the street You know, it was a hilly street and there were all sorts of flooding issues with our neighbors at the bottom of the street The street, you know didn't have Kind of any sewer stormwater drainage system So it just kind of flowed down the street the county for years as this was a county road The county for years knew that this was a problem and they you know over many years decided that they needed to put in a stormwater drainage system and so they dug up our street and I I don't know if you've ever lived on a street when it's Being completely dug up. Oh, man. It is such a mess. It's such a pain well, and my heart broke the day they had to come in and like Tear down like half the trees on the street because they were like too close to the street Is this street that's been around for you know years and years? Yeah, so they you know, they tore down the trees They dug up the street. They dug up the sidewalks and everything and they you know put in this brand new You know stormwater drainage system,

21:04 which is wonderful fix the flooding problems and everything brand new street. It's beautiful the thing that most people don't know is that when the engineers from the county and the department of transportation Make all of the design choices and then engineering choices for all the water flow for the stamp stormwater drains Literally the pipes underneath your feet when you're taking a walk all of those You know decisions are made based on rain tables and precipitation Tables that are all fed by the weather and climate labs at NOAA Like it is NOAA data and NOAA predictions about it's not just about what is the rain gonna be like today?

21:44 It's one of the risk windows in terms of the biggest precipitation events that you can anticipate you know 50 years from now because Goodness, you don't want to have to do this every 20 years in terms of digging up my street Right you want those assets to last for decades and decades? And so it's at times it's literally things like the engineering decisions for the pipes underneath your feet To make sure that your street doesn't flood NOAA data are there and it's these kind of like unseen Unknown kind of ways that this agency, you know silently, you know Helps inform the life in our communities around us that I think many of us don't appreciate many of us take for granted And frankly the government should just do this stuff, right? We shouldn't have to take for granted You know, we should be able to take it for granted that the plane just works.

22:35 Yeah communities. So yeah Yeah, no, absolutely I mean, that's you're right We do take it for granted because we're just like this is what the government is what we pay The government to do is to make sure that we're safe and that the infrastructure is there I think it's interesting when you know, you hear Noah you think atmosphere ocean you don't think about rain tables You don't you know, you don't think about how water flows in and around your area Maybe if you're along the coast, but you don't think about it in the interior And I think that is something that you know needs to be You know Reiterated every once in a while to really understand, you know what what they do So that's that's good to know. So now like with that said, you know, if Noah disappeared tomorrow What would be the first things that people would notice missing in their daily lives?

23:23 I mean other than the rain tables, you know, it would probably be the food on their plate and their weather forecasts, right? Mm-hmm. And you know the weather forecasts in particular It's not just about the forecaster in the National Weather Service Office that like yes the call and issues the forecast. It's that entire Pipeline of data and information and information processing that leads to that moment And let me give you a great example because people often are like, all right Why should someone in Kansas care about ocean observing systems, right? Because ocean Conservancy I care about the ocean stuff well tornado outbreaks in Kansas and storms and droughts in Kansas are all driven by Precipitation that flows up through basically a you know, a small You know, it's like a mini jet stream about a mile up that carries moisture from the Gulf of Mexico To the Great Plains in Kansas so if you don't understand what's happening in the Gulf of Mexico and if you don't understand the temperatures and the moisture that flows from the Gulf of Mexico over to Kansas You can't do a good job predicting tornadoes so that you can give a family an extra 10 minutes To go to their basement and and get out of harm's way and that could be like a life or death situation Absolutely. It is day in and day out and it's not just tornadoes or storms. It's also, you know Drought events can be just as devastating as as you know Major storms and tornadoes and drought

24:54 events too. It's about what happens in the Pacific Ocean, you know We hear people talking about the El Nino La Nina cycle If you don't understand what's going on with El Nino and La Nina in the ocean You can't predict what's gonna happen with drought and severe weather anywhere in the country Yeah, especially coastal zones, but also in places like Oklahoma, Kansas or Illinois or Wisconsin Yeah, and all the way up to Canada as well Yeah When there I think I think I heard something we're going into a super El Nino coming out of an El Nino like We don't know this unless we have that data and we have those predictive models that come out of of Noah What like, you know, there's a lot of stuff that that Noah does that we maybe take for granted Like, you know the weather for instance, you know, people will take for granted. Why do you think?

25:43 when when cuts were announced There are a lot of people being like yeah, these are a lot. There's a lot of wasteful Programs at Noah like they need to be cut and it seemed like you know, some of those programs were like, oh no We actually really you know, we need this Why are people so quick to and with your experience, you know in in government affairs? So why are people so quick to sort of dismiss some of these programs right off the bat when that people are saying they're gonna get Cut I think it's because they've never heard of the programs and they don't know what they do, right? So like, you know people will rush to to come to the aid of the National Weather Service and their local, you know Forecast office and their local meteorologists in charge because they've heard of that and they understand that and they know what that is But other parts of Noah like a you know cooperative institutes and research labs and you know Severe weather storm centers all that sort of stuff. It's you know, people haven't heard of it They kind of assume that like oh, it can that really be that important if I've never heard of it And yet those very things are the things that provide the data and process the models Uh that there's you know The forecasters actually need to do their job or you know that all of us need to to understand and improve, you know forecasts for hurricanes a Perfect example is when you look at hurricane Katrina compared to today We have dramatically improved our forecasting ability for hurricanes If you look at all of the specific labs

27:14 and institutes and parts of Noah That actually did the work to improve those forecasts chances are you haven't heard of most of those entities You've never heard of them. It doesn't mean that they're not important And so a lot of what we need to do right now when these kind of cuts are being proposed is to tell that story Right. We've got to make that stuff accessible So people understand what these different parts of Noah do why they're important how they're linked and interrelated And how if you you know chop off one part of Noah that damage just doesn't stay there It affects all sorts of you know ripple impacts across the agency services that people depend on Indeed indeed. Let's talk about the overall ocean conservation impact of Noah. How does Noah directly keep the ocean healthy?

28:02 Yeah, so Noah has a whole bunch of management responsibilities So under the endangered species act it has all sorts of responsibilities to you know Analyze when people want to do things that are going to potentially endanger a species Um, they're responsible for recovery plans. They're responsible for protected areas like natural marine sanctuaries the management And stewardship of those areas one of the biggest impacts is through fisheries management trying to make sure that we do fisheries management in a way that is sustainable and that doesn't you know, You know have all sorts of the you know, bycatch issues and habitat destruction Uh, so noah plays a direct role in a lot of the activities That you know directly harm Ecosystems and marine environments and marine wildlife. Noah is the steward for those resources. Noah is responsible under the law for managing those resources for making those decisions and making those calls It doesn't mean that noah always does what I wish they would do But they are the agency that has the responsibility To help us make sure that we've got you know thriving wildlife in the ocean and that we're taking care of habitats And that we're managing our fisheries sustainably for the future Yeah, and I can just I I know I don't know if you know the number off hand How many people generally work at at noah with all their departments if you if you look at it from an overall perspective Oh, I should know this but I don't okay.

29:26 It's a few thousand. Yeah, it's several thousand people several thousand Yeah, so it's not just like a small department that you know You have five or six people in each office as you go around it's spread around the country All around the country not just along the coastline especially, you know, obviously headquartered in washington d.c like this is It's it's got its hands in every pretty much everything around the ocean and and and atmosphere So I just wanted people to to know that there's several thousands because like we know so many people who Are in it probably between just the the two of us. It's it's uh, it's an important thing Um now, yeah, we so we talk about its involvement in in you know, endangered species protecting endangered species and so forth One thing he didn't mention is it's also involved in ocean exploration, you know, like the deep sea and things like that So why is that? Can you just I know you and I know why it's important But can you just talk a little bit about why it's important for noah to explore?

30:19 Different parts of the ocean to get a better understanding of it. Yeah, I mean noah Is is basically the only agency that we have that can explore the vast majority of the planet that we've never seen or explored and have very little understanding of And so, you know, it's almost hard to put into words how important that is Um, other than that they are on the forefront of science It is not very often that you have true exploration on the planet right now and the ocean is where that exploration is happening uh Because without that we just we're going to continue to live in ignorance about the nature of our planet And you know 70 of the globe is going to just go unseen unknown and unexplored Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh I think one of the you know, we we just had artemis to go into space and that was wonderful Imagine having a live feed of people going out into the ocean and being able to see what's down the ocean and how similar it is to work In in such difficult environments, you know, it's not an easy thing, you know, and I know we don't do as many You know people man like people subs going down a lot of remotely operated vehicles But the amount of money and and the the challenges that we're faced to go down there sometimes rivals space So I think it's important that that we that we get that Uh involved like that that involved in exploration now, you know talks about this overall ocean conservation impact

31:51 It's very important. You know, no is involved in a lot What happens to ocean science and conservation efforts from noah? When you know the funding that we're seeing or just in general becomes unstable year to year Yeah So I think the first impact that we saw right off the bat at the beginning of this administration Is the people impact in terms of the intellectual kind of firepower that the federal government has through incredibly experienced and seasoned Scientists and engineers and and world-renowned experts Uh when you start trying to undermine that workforce And that that brain that we have at our fingertips as taxpayers um That's hard to get back It's it's really hard to get back and there's a human toll Uh as well in terms of the you know taking some of our best and brightest, uh, you know scientists on ocean and atmospheric science and you know Uh basically making it so they don't want to work for the people anymore um And I think that's that's just a huge loss, uh for our country and it's it's hard to rebuild that and it's expensive to rebuild that It's extremely extremely short-sighted, uh in terms of the the damage that that does in the long run But I think what people don't realize too because we like in canada We saw these cuts happen during the harper administration

33:22 Uh conservative government in the early 2000 or mid 2000s and early 2012 no teens, I guess um And what was happening is is what we saw and we're probably going to see the same thing as these cuts happen is You get a lot of people who have been at the agencies for a very long time They're towards the end of their careers and they kind of get pushed out a little early Uh to allow for something yet, but the problem is is that knowledge transfer with the experience that they have Doesn't necessarily get transferred because it's such an abrupt change and they're and they're obvious like just gone Uh, and and they've retired but then also you get if there's a lot of cuts you get that loss of that You know sort of mid-career group of people who have accrued all this information have learned from their mentors Over those years and they lose and they lose that and they get jobs other places But they you lose again that that that knowledge and then the passing off of that knowledge for these programs that have gone on for decades uh, and not only are you getting gaps in the in the data from those years where the funding is is unstable But you're also losing the people who worked in those and and so the efficiency of that program can't get better as as we go Along the knowledge in there that the amount of questions that are being asked and being pushed so that we can find out more about how To stabilize fisheries and and make sure things are doing are going well with with endangered species and so forth It just gets all disrupted and then to rebuild it takes a lot longer than I think people realize It's not just you can lay off these

34:52 people you can disrupt their lives They have to go get other jobs and they're going to be in those jobs for a long time Hopefully, but they're not it's not as if they're going to just come back to the government As quickly as as we all think and that knowledge kind of it takes years and years to put that into place Am I off on that or or is that no, you know, that's what's the concern as well? Yeah, you're totally right. I think part of what you're getting at is that it's not just personnel. It's institutional capacity, right? Yeah Yeah, you know even the people who are still there who are you know within noah? They're having to deal with these, you know potential budget cuts and what does that mean? And you know the people that so great example the office of oceanic and atmospheric research Which is the line office that does all of the research for ocean stuff for atmospheric stuff for climate stuff everything That line office the administration is proposed zeroing the whole thing out just completely getting rid of it So if you are a scientist At oar and you have managerial responsibility. Are you planning on closing up shop or do you wait and see what congress does?

36:00 I mean, there's a huge amount of over, you know uncertainty that overhangs all of these programs and all of these kind of capacities within uh within noah that are critically important right? I mean these these climate labs are are essential for doing things like getting precipitation uh, you know Predictions so that we all know how to you know build our pipes in our streets And the question is where do you go from there? And I think a lot of people are trying to kind of just get through it and and figure out Um, you know how to provide services the best they can and the best they know how but it's a volatile time And I think it's it's a shame when when some of our best and brightest people Are having to spend their energy and their time?

36:47 figuring out how to deal with the political kind of chaotic system that they're living in um as opposed to focusing on uh, their their you know, their brain power and focusing that on on solving kind of the the biggest mysteries and and You know coming up with solutions for society Absolutely I want to kind of switch a little bit, uh to highlight some another important aspect of of noah and that is seafood Like just fisheries food and jobs in general Um, a lot of people don't connect noah with seafood prices, which I didn't initially went until until I found out So how does noah funding affect what people pay at the grocery store at a restaurant?

37:30 Yeah, so Noah's responsibility is to try to make sure that in the long run we have fisheries that are sustainable that can be sustainably harvested For everyone and so what that means is that they're ideally under the magnus and stevens act Ideally, there is a kind of a steadiness and a stability to our seafood economy Where you know, you don't have these huge, you know gluts where fisheries, you know fleets go out and kind of devastate the fishery And then it's gone Yeah, instead you it's about sustainable yield. It's about trying to make sure that our sustainable uh, you know our seafood economy is sustainable and predictable and so that that results in you know seafood supplies that are you know fairly steady but always with an eye towards conservation and always with an eye towards Making sure that the stocks are there in the future Now that's a tough job, right? It's it's not easy to do that and do it well And you know the agency makes mistakes at times and fisheries sometimes, you know overshoot and overfish stocks that they're fishing But at least overall in the in the system as a whole the idea is that we need sustainable wild caught fisheries That we can all access because when I go to the grocery store and when I look in the seafood case If it's caught in the united states as a wild caught fishery I want to have a confidence that the us government is making sure that that is happening sustainably, right?

39:00 I don't want to have to uh go and and you know have a phd and fishery science to understand which fish are sustainable and which are not We should have an expectation to be able to know that what we're eating we can eat safely and that it is not going to be at the detriment of future generations Now if cuts happen, yeah to noah and in this and their seafood, you know programs Uh, that stock assessment and and you know the economy the economics around it as well Uh, how could coastal communities and fishing jobs be affected? Yeah it's a great question and the the one of the things that The agency is already toying with as an idea is that we're just going to take some stocks out of management We're just we're just going to stop managing them at least some of them and What does that mean? Okay what that means? It's almost as if you're driving a car down the highway Yeah, and you're like, all right. This highway is kind of straight I feel kind of confident but like it takes a lot of energy to keep my eyes open So i'm just going to put a blindfold on and we'll hope for the best right?

40:13 And so hopefully we're still going straight. Yes So you may not experience tragedy right away But sooner or later you're going to end up in a car wreck And your chances of being in a car wreck have gone way up by putting on a blindfold And that's basically what we're saying we're we're going to choose to do is, you know, if we say, uh, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Uh, we can't afford because we have budget cuts. We can't afford to manage these stocks So we're just gonna stop managing a bunch of them, right? That's just saying we're not going to be the eyes and ears We're not going to look at it. We're not going to try to manage it. We're going to give up We're going to put on the blindfold and then we'll wait for disaster to strike and mark you it will happen. Yeah sooner or later Yeah, and we talk a lot about you know with weather and safety and communities and so forth already um, you know, but some people are like with these cuts a lot of people are like and I guess this is a very I'm gonna say like conservative way of thinking like in terms of conservative politics But some argue that you know private companies could replace, you know government services, right? Especially like science services um Potentially like weather stations and and so forth. Where does that argument fall short?

41:24 Yeah, because it because it like it doesn't that doesn't seem like that's a good idea in the long run So where does that argument fall short? Yeah, so I think The the weather service is actually a great example of this and it's a great example because much of what the weather service does Is already a public private partnership Right in the sense that a lot of the weather that you get the delivery of it is often from the private sector It's from businesses. It's from the weather channel. It's from your local Weather station it's from your you know, whatever app you use on your phone um But in order for you to get that forecast It's kind of like we need to treat weather or think about weather the way we think about the post office Right the post office basically guarantees that anyone anywhere in the country can send and get mail That is incredibly empowering for everyone universally across the country And if you take that universality away if you say, you know what?

42:24 We're just gonna you know, we'll collect have you we'll let the private sector do it We'll let the private sector decide when and where to collect weather data Do you think remote areas and rural areas are going to get good service in the way that they do if they do? They'd have to pay a lot of money Exactly people can't afford and now we're playing with people's lives here. Exactly. I think that's the problem Yeah, so I very much think of it in in those terms where it's like it doesn't matter whether you live in some remote area in Alaska or new york city Or rock island, Illinois where I grew up You deserve to have a decent weather forecast and it's the government's responsibility to make sure We have the data and the information to keep you protected and keep you informed Yeah Now I guess, you know a lot of the stuff that came out especially since the trump administration they're attributing it towards politics like this is a political thing that happened and we need to uh Understand that if the politics change Maybe things will change and that's I think that's the general hope for these midterm elections that if you know If things flip or things change then hopefully things will change, you know in especially in this in this situation But is it could it be more about whether like society values public service infrastructure like especially for science?

43:42 Like is this is this a sign where like the you know, somebody just uses, you know, a party comes in it could have been democrats It could have been republicans. It just happened to be republicans this time and said, hey, you know what? We know we can find room for for cost savings And we're going to go into noah and we're going to go into science We're going to cut a bunch because it's a big department. It's easy to cut You know and we'll probably get a lot of backing from the public on this So is it more of like a political shift or is it more of just society just doesn't understand how important? A service like noah is I think it's a mix I try to when it comes to noah in particular. I try to not think of it in partisan terms at all And you know, frankly when you see what congress has done So the bush the trump administration proposed their initial budget to really just eviscerate noah And then congress in the most recent appropriations funds that we worked very hard To push against that and to advocate for congress to fully fund noah And that's basically what congress did and that was republicans and democrats Okay, so it wasn't a partisan issue and you can't argue it as a partisan issue At the end of the day, this is about services that everybody needs Everyone relies on everyone depends on and so it doesn't actually help To tell in telling that story to make it a partisan thing Uh, so, you know We're seeing the trump administration go through the process again where they

45:12 proposed another budget They're cutting the you know operational funding for noah by about a third I mean it would just completely devastate services that people depend on And I think it's the sort of thing that it may sound good politically in theory But once you actually look at the details and once you talk about the realities of what that would mean And what that would take off the table for people's constituents in congress and for businesses Uh, then like all of a sudden you see people getting really practical really fast in terms of like, okay We can't we can't cut that funding because it's more important than than we realized And to get that Across that message across like not only do does ocean conservancy work within the walls of government and to Build those relationships, but you also have relationships with your constituents, right?

46:07 The people who who support you the people who follow ocean conservancy um and some people who may be affiliates of those of those people family members and so forth who may not follow directly but You know Maybe need to be convinced that hey noah is really crucial and especially in certain certain situations like we've discussed today um Has the has the ocean conservancy had success? in changing people's minds about The importance of noah who may like to for people who may not have thought That noah was important and agreed with the cuts But now we're like, oh wait, we either we either realize we're missing this service that noah provided because of the cuts Or we understand now better because of the messaging from ocean conservancy and other Nonprofits and other people who are trying to fight these cuts Yeah, I mean when we go to capital hill when our teams and we have a fantastic Team of people here at ocean conservancy when we go to capital hill um, we are very Methodical about making sure that we're not just going into offices where we know people are going to agree with us Yeah, we go into offices, you know The leading edge offices where we think they're probably going to disagree with us, but we've got to tell the story anyway, right?

47:21 We've got right and I I tell you what as long as we're going in with a a practical Story based like let's talk about your district and your constituents and why this matters for your people As long as we're going in with that attitude It's amazing how often we get surprised by people who you know Theoretically are not people who are likely to agree with us And so it's it's about doing that hard work Of you know, like I said before a thousand small conversations. It's about telling the story It's about you know, we will always start from the place of the ocean, right when I talk about kansas It's about how important ocean sensors in the gulf of mexico are to kansas Because that you know, there there is a nexus though, but it's actually really cool that those stories happen to align with the intersectionality within noah, right the fact that You know, let's talk about the importance of the ocean to kansas and that literally demonstrates how you cannot cut Any of that that chain that ends up with a tornado forecast In in the heart of the midwest or the heart of the great plains Because if you ignore the ocean You don't have a chance in doing what you're trying to do, uh in in the middle of kansas or oklahoma or illinois or wisconsin gotcha now, um there's a lot of fight

48:51 from conservationists ocean advocates people around the us and around the world To bring like, you know to make sure no doesn't get cut and also to fight a lot of other policy There's deep sea mining policy. There's Oil and gas exploration policy that a lot of people are fighting and it can get a little you know uh depressing at times because once you know You think you fight one thing then another thing comes out and all these, you know rfi's like request for information are coming out for all these different policies, um And you know it it can it can kind of you kind of lose the hope at some point what You know, what gives you hope right now?

49:35 Uh, you know about the future of ocean policy? Oh It's such an important question And I think that the the thing that Is easy to forget is the perspective if you only look at a short time period But when you look at a broader time horizon and you look at multiple decades Yeah Climate change is is getting worse and that's a big challenge. That's like on the upswing You've got you know Plastic pollution in the ocean is a big problem That's a big thing that we need to fight and battle and tackle for the future But there are also a lot of challenges that we've actually gotten our hands around pretty well, right?

50:18 The sustainability of our fisheries in the united states is vastly better than it was Back in the 70s when the maggots and stevens act was originally passed You know the state of endangered species while there's a lot of species recoveries that need to happen We have stopped seeing the rate of extinction that you know originally was happening or and was anticipated to happen You know back in the 70s and so Much less talk about water quality and air pollution and those sorts of things again. There are way more challenges. I mean Water pollution is fascinating that we've come so far and yet we still have so much further to go right But I think the the thing that gives me hope is the fact that we have made progress in so many areas Yeah, the areas where I think we have a lot more work to do You know, it can feel daunting, but that's where innovation happens, right?

51:12 Yeah, and that's where you roll up your sleeves and you do your work and you call your member of congress because that's what we all need to do Yeah But at the end of the day, we can't do any of this if we don't have the basic federal infrastructure in place And the the primary ocean agency that is intact that has the best scientists in the world and the best experts in the world If we don't have that It's a much harder place to start from so we've got to keep our basically our core infrastructure in place Yeah, and we can tackle these problems. I'm not saying we're going to win everything Right in the next 10 years, but but you know, we've demonstrated time and time again that we can find solutions and we can make progress You you hit on a really interesting point we've come so far Right in terms of like I mean at one point lake gary set itself on fire. It was so polluted You know having the the clean water act the clean air act on the canning inside having similar acts That allowed us to have safe drinking water that allowed us to have all these Different things that we don't even know about most of us That are already enacted and have helped us serve for a better environment And I think it's interesting we hear about a lot of stuff that we still need to do You know, we hear a lot of endangered species still need help and this and that But like you said because these acts have been passed we're seeing less of extinction, right?

52:37 Do you think that like as you know ocean advocates ourselves like whether it's ocean conservancy whether it's us as individuals We have the responsibility to kind of remind people Of how good some of these acts do and do you think like we may have? I don't want to use the word failed But maybe miss the mark in reminding people That these are things that I got on a regular basis that these are things that Have helped and these and and and having things like specific departments Within noah have helped us maintain The level that we have now even though there's improvements to be made Yeah, I mean, I think we need to constantly be telling those stories and in in some respects moments like right now When things seem to be under fire and under threat People are more open to hearing those stories now than they are when everything is just fine and not really under kind of the You know the political threat that uh that it is today and so in some ways, you know Like right now is a wonderful moment to be able to tell the story of noah and how important noah is in your life Yeah, because it is under threat and we are at risk of losing things And my goodness You need to call your member of congress and let your member of congress know That you don't want noah to go away and that noah needs to be fully funded but the um The storytelling is a constant exercise.

54:07 It will never be done. We'll never be done For sure. Um, but I think as long as we're driven by curiosity In that storytelling, I mean there's nothing better than being curious and there's nothing better be to be curious about than the ocean Absolutely. I was gonna ask you if you could leave our listeners with one message About no, I feel like that's that's it I mean, you know, I we you and I know a number of people who work for noah They're driven by curiosity. They're driven by This this mission to help Uh the agencies that they work for protect the ocean protect the people In the us and around the world Uh, because we they do have programs that help us around the world You know not only from like looking at sharks and and looking at different fish species to making sure that people have seafood Uh, not only in the us but also around the world, you know, but also look the the the meteorological services that they provide tsunami warning Technology and and and services is just huge Uh, no, those are just a couple of like less than a handful of the things that they can do So I think it's really important now, you know One thing that I always say too is as you as you mentioned calling your congressperson to say hey, you know We need to you know, remind them of their duties to protect the citizens and and and protect the ocean and if they don't listen there's some midterms coming up and You know if if somebody's not listening to what you want You have the right to to vote for

55:38 somebody who will listen to to what you want. So You know feel free to to exercise your right to do that, you know, and I think that's that's a an important message especially coming up And and the way the things have gone and it hasn't gone in the way of the environment So if you want things to change this is your time to change It's not sitting on the couch and be like no my my vote doesn't matter. It does matter And I think it's really important to to get out and vote so that people listen because you know, one thing i've seen is uh, Is work that people put in to make sure that people comment, you know against these these deep sea mining rfi's and uh during the public comment period as well as the oil and gas exploration and although some many of them have been ignored or will be ignored by this current administration If you vote for the right people Afterwards that that could switch in the midterms, right and they could look at that Like you're the new congresspeople can come in and look at that and be like well, hold on a second People don't want this and we work for the people. So hopefully that that can get changed. So um, that's what i'll leave but if you want to leave any last words that you want to give give my audience this but We have a lot of americans in the audience And people who love noah in this audience who are americans and and beyond so what would be the last thing you'd like to say?

56:56 Uh for for this time because we'd love to have you back on No, just plus one to everything that you just said and it's it's why calling members of congress is so important I think a lot of people think that it doesn't matter. It really does as someone who's worked in a congressional office You've got a call members of congress want to know where their constituents are at and if there's something burning That you care deeply about that. You don't like the way things are going Give them an earful. That's what they're there for and yeah, um, you know, then they can go into Uh any election season at least they know what uh, what what matters to you? Yeah, absolutely. Jeff. This has been uh, so much fun to have you on I thank you for the work that you and your colleagues have done over at ocean conservancy We're a big fan of you here at the podcast of of of of the organization of the work And and coming on and sharing why we we need noah why we should care about noah So we thank you so much. We'll get this message out as much as possible We'd love to have you back on talk more about your work at ocean conservancy and hopefully next time you're back on We'll see a bit of a change and and um and some changes and some policies. Yeah, that's great Yeah, thank thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Jeff for joining us on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean Podcast it was great to have this conversation. Look noah is one of those institutions Many people never even think about until something goes wrong But as you heard today from jeff it touches your daily life in more ways than most of us realize

58:27 From storm warnings and safer seafood to wildlife protection and ocean discovery So I want to say a big thank you to jeff waters for joining us on today and helping us make sense Of what is at stake with these funding cuts and if this episode helped you better understand why noah matters Share it with someone who should hear it Just all you have to do is just share the link with whatever podcast app you're listening to It's easy for them to pick it up and listen to it And of course if you are new to the podcast or if you haven't followed the show before Click that follow button right now in your favorite podcast app, whether it's apple podcast spotify Amazon music whatever that might be to follow the how to protect the ocean podcast for next week's ocean Update. I want to thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast I'm your host. Andrew and have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation