Plastic Pollution in the Ocean: Why It’s Time to Ban Styrofoam for Good

0:00 Let's say you ordered takeout last night. Nothing fancy just noodles. In one of those foam containers. You toss it in the trash after you're done with your food, without even thinking anything of it like you've done a hundred times before, because that's what happens when you order takeout. But the container could break into microplastics, wash into a river, and end up inside a sea turtle, a marine mammal, a seabird, any kind of animal. It's not gonna decompose because that's not what it does. It won't be recycled, and it may harm ocean life for decades, oftentimes, leaching chemicals into the body, including not only just regular animals that you see, like seals of sea birds and sea turtles, but also humans.

0:44 In this episode, we're gonna talk about the journey of foam, those styrofoam containers that we get from takeout places and other places, and why it's time to stop using them. Al. We're gonna be talking to Oceana's Christie Levitt, who is the campaign manager for Oceana on Plastics, especially talking about plastic foam. And there's a new report that Oceana produced called Plastic Foam Needs to Go. We're gonna talk about that report and why it should concern you today and your health. Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is a podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.

1:32 And on today's episode, we're gonna be talking about how campaigns work to get certain things passed in legislation, whether it's on the federal, the state, or local levels. There are people out there working for organizations who are working very, very hard to ensure that they're protecting not only the health of the planet, but also your health. Especially in this case. We have Kristi Levitt from Oceana who's a campaigner that works on foam styrofoam containers and why they need to go, why there needs to be a ban on this type of plastic. And we talk about the effects on the health of animals, the health of the environment, as well as. Our own health. So lots of things to do and at the end there's a great call to action where you can help out.

2:14 And if you wanna help out more and learn more about how you can be guided to help the ocean and live for a better ocean, I would love for you to join the undertow. It's an ocean community that we are creating online. Myself and two of my amazing co-founders, and we are building this community. With Wave Makers, individuals who are driving for ocean change, and we are gonna help you better protect the ocean. All you have to do is go to speak up for blue.com/join the undertow to join. That's speak up for blue.com/join the undertow. It's on a wait list right now. We're building the app out. It should come very, very soon. Within the next month or so, I'm very excited to release this. You'll get access to me. You'll get access to my co-founder, Serena and Amanda, and a bunch of Wave makers as well.

2:59 It's gonna be a lot of fun. I can't wait for you to do that. No algorithms, no regular social media sites. This is just a community app for Ocean Lovers like yourself. Speak up for blue.com/join the undertow. Let's get into the episode. Here's my interview with Kristi Levitt from Oceana. Talking about the campaign to ban plastic foam so that we don't have to deal with the consequences in our environment and in our bodies. Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after. Hey Christie, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about styrofoam in the ocean? I am. And it's a pleasure to be here. Oh, it's so, I'm so happy to have you on, uh, Christie. I know this is the first time we've actually met, but to have someone from Oceania on the podcast is such a delight.

3:44 We've had people on from Oceania Canada before. Uh, I've had people on from Oceana, but it's been a while and there's just so much fun to have. 'cause I know the amazing work that you guys do, and you guys do such a, a plethora of work, such a wide variety of work, not only in fisheries, but in plastic pollution. And it's so important to discuss. And I'm, I'm really delighted that you're here to, that we're gonna be able to discuss that. We're gonna be focusing on plastic foam today, like styrofoam and really focusing in on those styrofoam containers that take out containers and stuff that we get, that we don't even realize. And I think a lot of us in, in, when we go through our everyday life, we don't question it because just, you know, we take takeout everybody. Mm-hmm. We're all on the, on the move and we're going quickly and we get these, this takeout and we get, it's the container that it comes in.

4:26 And, you know, you try and tell people, Hey, why are you using plastic foam? But sometimes they're like, that's what we can afford. That's the way we do things. Um, and so that happens. And so it, it, it's, it's tough to like really think about what we can do to make it better. So we're gonna talk about the new report that Oceania released called Plastic Foam, how it needs to Go. And, uh, I want to get into sort of the nitty gritty about it all. But before we do Christy, I wanna get to know you a little bit and my audience to get to know you a little bit. So why don't you let us know who you are and what you do. Great. Well, it is such a pleasure to be here. Um, so I'm Christy Levitt. I, um, work with Oceania in the us. I am our US Plastics campaign director. And so what that means is I run our campaigns here in the US to stop the production use of unnecessary single use plastics.

5:14 And my background is that I've been working on environmental issues for a couple of decades now. Mm-hmm. Working on a whole variety of issues, including. Oceans protections, but also clean air, clean water, protecting open spaces, working on climate issues, and all of that focused on either state or national level policies. Mm-hmm. And had lots of good wins, um, along the way. And, you know, some, some losses too as it as it happens, but overall, you know, working to make progress so that our air is cleaner, our waters are cleaner, and our, you know, we're everything's better for our health and the environment. And started at Oceana about six years ago, um, when we launched the plastics campaign here in the us.

5:58 So have been here almost from the beginning and a few staff working on it. When we, um, first started working on plastics, but launched the campaign, uh, in the US and we've worked not only on national level policy, which is really oceania's focus, but also state and local policies to reduce the production use of single use plastics. Wow, awesome. I mean, it's such a big undertaking when you think about it. Uh, you know, it doesn't matter who the government is, obviously sometimes it's a little harder than others, uh, depending on the government, of course. Uh, but in your background, in terms of like getting here, working on campaigns, when you first started in the field of of Oceans, did you ever think that this is what you were gonna be doing is working on campaigns?

6:44 'cause like when I first started, I didn't even know this was a job. You know, when I first started, like was like a campaign director or you know, someone who works on campaigns, it's obviously a very important aspect of it, but did you expect to work in this line of work? Well, actually I came about at the other way where really when I graduated from college, what I wanted to do was to work on campaigns. Oh, interesting. I didn't know how to do that. Yeah. Uh, so, um, and I was really, look, I was really, I was into environmental issues. Mm-hmm. I was, I went to college in Los Angeles. I was into impacts on the, um, you know, pollution impacts on the, on people and the environment and the coast. And so I was most interested in continuing to live in Los Angeles and make change there.

7:27 But I knew I needed to learn how to, how to do that. So, um, right. I worked for. An organization called the Student Pergs for a good number of years. I learned those skills about doing organizing work and learning how to, um, make change on policy. And that was state level policy and national level policy. So really what I, you know, I wanted to learn how to do was to make, make, make that change that makes a big impact in organizing the public. So not only getting the policy right and the facts right, but organizing the public to get them engaged in the process too. And so I was pretty open about environmental issues that I worked on, and as I was saying, you know, over the years worked on everything from climate to protecting forest to ocean issues and still really excited about all of those issues.

8:16 Mm-hmm. Um, and have always come at it from a organizing and public policy change end of it. And then there was a. Opportunity with Oceania to work on plastics and oceans. And you know, the same question of did I ever think I'd work on plastics and oceans? No. No. I think, you know, 20 years ago we didn't really know the extent of the problem of plastics. Mm-hmm. And it's, we've been learning a lot. Um, and it, you know, it includes so many different things from oceans to protecting the animals and the oceans and the harm that, that caused, the impacts on people to, the impacts on our, on climate. Yeah. So all of that comes together with plastics.

8:56 But I definitely did not think, you know, a couple decades ago that I would be work working on this. But I'm really excited to be here doing it. Yeah. And, and to be honest, I see a lot more, uh, posts. I've actually curated my LinkedIn page to be all job posts. 'cause I shared job posts for like, the careers for people and. I noticed there's a lot of jobs, especially with Oceania, but, but even just with a lot of, uh, uh, organizations similar to Oceania, whether it's in forestry or whether it's in, in agriculture or it doesn't matter, right? There's a lot of campaign directors or somebody like a marine campaign or, or, uh, plastics campaign or things like that. I see those jobs come up quite a bit, you know, as someone like, I went to school for science, a lot of people that I, that listen to this podcast go to school for science or marine science.

9:44 Marine biology, like what suited you for this job and what skills really suit people for this type of, of campaigns type job? Like leading campaigns or, or taking part in campaigns? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think one of the great things about doing campaign work is that people come from all different backgrounds. So whether you, you went through. Not only college, but then got a mm-hmm. Advanced degree in a particular science. Mm-hmm. You, you didn't, or even if you went to, to law school or you know, some you have a degree in something else. All of that ultimately can lead you to doing this type of type of campaign work.

10:24 And you'll do it in slightly different ways based on your. Expertise and experience. Mm-hmm. But it's definitely, you know, a set of skills that you can learn and I learned it by doing it. So I learned how to do things like read policy, to run a press conference, to organize a coalition of, or other organizations to go and meet with your local elected officials or your, here in the US members of Congress or, mm-hmm. You know, your state legislators, all of that are ultimately quite learnable skills regardless of your background. It's, I think the biggest thing is an interest in doing that and in making change through policy.

11:05 And one of the great things about Oceania is that we have people who have all of those different expertise. So my expertise might be in, in running the campaign, but I work with a whole bunch of staff with a variety of different skills. So we start, you know, as with many PE organizations, what we definitely really focus on starting with the facts. So we wanna make sure we've got the science on our side. So we've got a scientist who works, um, specifically on plastic. Issues. We've got policy staff who spend their days up talking to members of Congress and their staff and the administration. We've got lawyers on staff. We also have our field representatives who are based in states around the us, particularly coastal states, who are building up that political support on the ground.

11:50 Hmm. Just getting regular ordinary people engaged in our campaign efforts. Plus then people who have some power locally who might be able to influence what, what Congress is doing. Right. And it's really that for Oceania, that mix of the science, the policy, the legal aspects, the grassroots support, and then being able to communicate that to the public. So, uh, I think one of the really most important skills to learn along the way and to be able to do this type of work effectively is to take what are sometimes really complicated scientific. Issues and problems or even solutions and be able to Right. Explain that to regular people who are not spending their days looking at what's happening on to the oceans or what's, what's happening to the air or what's happening to the animals and wildlife.

12:36 Yeah. So being able to really break that down to people and I'm sure in your role Sure. You, you do that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, it is so funny too, 'cause sometimes, uh, when you don't think of a job. Like a particular job. Say you go through school and you're not thinking about working on campaigns. Of course, as we mentioned before, it's difficult to figure out like, what do I need to do this? This sounds like a really good opportunity and a really good way to get into conservation is to work on these campaigns and really make a change and really make a difference on policy. You know, building up those relationships with, with government representatives at different levels and and so forth. And there's so many, even within like the campaign sort of. Avenue, uh, and, and, and career sort of path.

13:18 There are different levels within it from interns and all the way to like, sort of like a junior campaigner and then a senior, and then you said the field representatives as well. Um, and everybody seems to enjoy their jobs. Like, you know, I've, I know people who have worked in the field in, in campaigning at, for Oceania in particular, and they've been in doing it for like nine or 10 years, and they absolutely love it, you know, and they get out into the field and they're talking to people and they're going out on boats and like doing all these photo ops and stuff. And I think it's really great. You know, Greenpeace is also, you know, an organization that's known to do campaigning and, and they're a little bit more, uh, activism and, and, and stuff. But it's, it's just a different way of, of looking at it that you've mentioned you've worked in a lot of different, um, almost realms, let's just say.

14:01 So the marine, the forestry, uh, what drives you. To choose, uh, the, the path that you've taken, like to choose the type of campaigns that you work on. What has been that driving factor for you? Because I've talked to scientists where they're just like, they, like they're the researchers. They're driven by specific questions. So it doesn't necessarily have to be that the topic is a certain animal. It's more of like, what is that ecological function that drives this animal to do a particular behavior or particular ecological, um, motion or function compared to another animal that does the same thing for you? What is that driver to choose the campaigns that you wanna work on or to apply for a job to work on the campaigns that you want to work on?

14:43 Right. I'm sure that has changed over, over time. So I, right. You know, when I'm first starting, I grew up in California. I right. Didn't live on the coast, but live near the coast. I, the mountains are amazing. Mm-hmm. The parks are amazing. So there's definitely, you know, a connection to, to nature and a variety of types of nature. That was a, a strong interest. And I think, you know, I still definitely have that. I live in a city, but I love going out to explore our national parks. I love going to the coast. I love looking, you know, um, going to all sorts of, all sorts of places. Yeah. So I think, you know that, so connection to nature. Mm-hmm. I also think, um, over time we've found more and more problems, so that's true.

15:31 When I was in school, climate change was not a huge problem. That we talked about a lot. Mm-hmm. But it is now. And so I think, but so climate is a big driver for me overall. We, and plastics definitely plays into that. The oceans are being impacted by that. Mm-hmm. So that is one of the big things. But I think sort of at the, at the core of it, I've got two kids who are, they're no longer little kids. They're, they're medium sized kids now, but they, um, you know, I want them to live in a, yeah. In a world that there is clean air, clean water, that there are the oceans, that the oceans are filled with all sorts of wildlife.

16:12 That there's people who can sustain their. Um, their livelihoods by relying on the oceans that all of that exists, not just for the next five to 10 years, but it is for decades and decades from now, if not centuries. I want, you know, I want my kids to grow up in a, and have a world where there is clean air, clean water, oceans. I want their kids to be able to do that, so. Mm-hmm. I think, you know, as a parent, that's a big driver, but I also, also, beyond me, I wanna make sure that other people's kids can do that, that too. So that it's, you know, I, I look at my kids and what I want them to be able to do, but I also want people around the, around the country, around the world to be able to have that, those same things too.

16:56 Clean air, clean water. Yeah. Open spaces. Yeah. Oceans, all of that. Well, and we know how much it plays a role in our health, overall health, not only physical, but mental health as well. I mean, Jane Nichols, I always mention him and probably every episode that I can with his Blue Mind book, uh, you know, and, and, and the fact that it's just, it's. It helps us to have the ocean in, in good health. You know, just in general, just if we can keep that in good health, keep our planet in good shape, then we can do it. And, and, you know, some of the stuff that you campaign for to unite like basic needs, it's just like we're just asking for, you know, pretty much like, let's just keep the, the environment as healthy as possible and, and let's like not have as much negative influence on it to, but it's such a big thing to do.

17:40 You know, the campaigns, there's reason why there are campaigns that we do, uh, that you participate in to get, you know, these PLAs like foam, uh, and styrofoam out of circulation because they could be bad for our, our plan and they can be bad for our health. So I think it's, I think it's really interesting. I, I love the, the driver for that. I think it's, I think it's really cool to know, obviously it, it evolves, right? I was, I was, I was kind of, I was expecting that it evolves as you go through and certain things interest you and as. Your kids grow up and you start to see the effect. You know, like I have, I have teenage, two teenage daughters, one going into university next year for wildlife and conservation. So I'm like very excited about that. Very cool. Not marine biology, but nobody's perfect. It's, it's fine.

18:20 It's fine. But it's, it's, it's kind of cool to see and you know, we, we discuss a lot of the, some of the issues. It's just like, I don't understand why this is an issue. Like, this seems to be just basic, but it is, you know, and then we have to, we have to make a case for it and we have to campaign on these things. Um, so I, I think that's, that's really cool. Let's get into the plastics. 'cause this is what we're here for in the styrofoam. There is a report, uh, that, that Oceania put out, uh, called plastic foam needs to go. Uh, it's a really well written report, very easy to read for, for anybody who wants to pick it up. And I'll put the link in, uh, in the show notes so that people can, can get access to it. What, speaking of drivers, what was the driver to write this report?

19:00 Well. So as overall Ocean is working to reduce the production in use of single use plastics and we're taking a step back, we're doing that because single use plastics and packaging makes up about 40% of all the plastic made each year. So that's, that's a lot. And a lot of that 40% is unnecessary. Mm-hmm. And so if we can make an impact on that, it's gonna protect our, ultimately protect our oceans. 'cause we're making less of it and less of it's gonna end up at the ocean, but it's also gonna have lots of other benefits too. Mm-hmm. In terms of climate issues, in terms of other clean air and clean water issues. So that's our starting point is taking, taking that piece of the pie, I guess it'd be this piece of the pie that way.

19:44 Um, so dealing with that, that part of it, there are some really problematic single use plastics and um, plastic foam is one of those. So plastic foam, it's formally called expanded fall, sorry, it's former called Expanded Polystyrene. And it's. As you started the show, it's often referred to as styrofoam. Right. And it is something that there are good alternatives to. Now. There is no reason why we should be relying on this product. That is, it pollutes our environment. It creates problems for the ocean, it creates problems for people. And we can get into all of that, but it's really one of the most problematic plastics, but there simply is not a need for it.

20:26 Right. Um, and so we wanted to do this report to help educate people and show people that plastic foam is hazardous to, hazardous to our oceans and our health. Mm-hmm. So it, it's really, it's always interesting when we find out that something that we've been using in general supply, you know, and in like everyday life, like I mentioned at the beginning of the show, is bad for us and bad for the planet. Yet we never questioned it. We just said, this is, you know, I'm gonna order my food, or I'm at a restaurant and I want to take it home, so I want to, you know, go home with it. Oh, here, here's a, here's a container for it. Okay, cool. I'm not gonna, you know, even question it, put it in a container and I'm gonna go home.

21:10 Why is it that styrofoam was the choice that was made in the first place To be that material? To go into this mass production and be used by, you know, millions of people around the world? Billions. Really? Yeah. I don't know if it was. A conscious or purposeful choice for particularly this type of plastic. There are a couple of things for why plastic, foam and other single use plastics. They, they, they have increased the use exponentially of this. These products have, let me say that again. These products Yeah. Have increased exponentially over the last 20 years. Right.

21:50 So over half of the plastic made has been since 2004. So there's been this huge growth and a lot of that is about moving from reusable products to a lot of single use products. And plastic foam is. Pretty cheap. Um mm-hmm. It's pretty cheap to make and it is, that clearly does not include all of the environmental and health impacts built into that cost. And it's, um, it's lightweight, so easy to ship. Mm-hmm. So I think those are the sum of things, but make it, have made it part of just common usage. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it is used as you're saying, for everything from takeout containers to taco cups, to soda cups.

22:31 Um, foam coolers is one of the other uses. And yeah. Pack what we in the US call packing peanuts, but other Yes. Packaging, um, or pack packing peanuts in Canada too. Um, it's pretty much the same. Yeah. So it is. So, you know, it does. Have its uses, but all the problems with it. Mm-hmm. Both on the production side and the toxic chemicals that come out of our use of it that then is an impact on us. And then its disposal are all totally problematic. And one of those, some of those things that might make it useful for somebody, um, you know, to sell the product are some of the problems with it. So it's really lightweight. Mm-hmm. It also is brittle, so when it is breaks apart, it makes it, you know, breaks up into tiny pieces.

23:17 Yeah. That can be carried really far in both the wind and the water. So it, it has become one of the most common forms of marine plastic pollution as well as pollution in lakes and rivers too. And so that big expansion of its use has created lots of problems too. Well, and if, and if you've ever handled anything that's styrofoam related, God forbid it breaks or you try and like break it down, it, it seems like it's a product just made of these tiny, tiny balls of styrofoam. And so when it breaks, these things go everywhere and they're very difficult to clean. If you think about it, right? Like, I'm thinking of like, in my mind right now, I'm thinking of like a styrofoam cooler.

23:59 If that breaks or gets crushed by something, uh, it it, it just goes everywhere. And it's really difficult to take up every little piece. It's not like big chunks or, or things like that. So think of like, when I think about that, I think about that happening at a beach. If somebody takes a cooler to a beach, you know, it say, even if it a piece like chips off, you know, and they're like, oh, no big deal. You try and pick up as much as possible, but you still get these little beads that are in the sand that eventually travels. They're lightweight. If they're not buried in the sand, they can go into the ocean or they can go into the dunes if you're through dunes in the back, and animals will eventually try and pick 'em up. You know, it's, they think, oh, maybe it's a bird. Maybe it's a sea turtle, you know, as they're trying to get some food or something like that.

24:39 If it's floating, they might just. Experiment and try and get it in there. And we don't think about that when it happens because I'll have it in my driveway and it'll break, and I'm like, oh, like I gotta go and pick it all up and stuff. And who's gonna take it? Like, what's gonna be affected by this? It's on my own property. It's not gonna affect anything but it birds pick it up. I've seen birds pick it up. I've seen squirrels pick it up, you know, animals pick this, this stuff up. It's harmful for these animals. It'll eventually kill them or, or harm their health. And, and, and I think we don't think about that. We just think, oh, it's a cooler. I can grab it, bring it to the beach, or bring it to wherever on a picnic, and then I'll just throw it out because I don't want to keep it. It's, it's very much in our convenience, you know, for this type of, of work, even though there are so many other products available now.

25:23 I think it, I feel like it's almost, you know, sometimes I, I, I still, I still wonder why we have this problem because there are so many alternatives available for restaurants as well as for consumers, individual consumers. So. And, and this is this in your report, it's like, why is it so hard to get it out of production? Why is it so difficult? It is primarily, it's a plastic producer, so there is a. They make this product, they wanna keep selling the product. Um, and it is, for all the reasons you said, totally problematic and harmful to animals. We can could talk about some specific am uh, examples, if that's, that's helpful too.

26:06 But the main reason we still have it is that the companies that produce it wanna keep producing it. Hmm. And they wanna keep it, keep it on the market. Um, there's countries around the world and I think Canada too has mm-hmm. A plan and a law Yes. To phase out single use plastic foam. In the US we don't have a law like that on the national level yet, but we do have state, state laws and cities and counties are, are working to phase it out. It really should be that the companies that use and sell and distribute this, that they're doing it there on their own and they're, yeah. Stop using it and using it as the, the coffee cup or the takeout container or the packing peanuts, but they're not doing that in all cases.

26:48 And so these government policies are really important. To make, make change on the issue and to, to move it on out. Um, so that's what, if the companies aren't doing themselves, governments really need to, to step in and make a difference, to force it. 'cause it is such a problem for the, whether it's the, you know, sea turtles who are eating it, or birds that are picking it up like you are describing, or they're see it floating on the ocean and they think it looks like, um, little fish eggs, they eat it. Mm-hmm. That way too. So it's, it's really problematic for ocean, ocean animals. I never thought of the fish egg scenario, but yeah. That, that, that makes complete sense. Um, obviously there's an environmental impact to it with, with birds, with fish, with sea turtles, uh, like any animal really that wants to pick this up wherever it can find.

27:36 Um, but it also affects humans as well. Like these, these things get into our system. Um. How does it get into ours? Like, how does it affect us? Because some people are like, I'm not gonna eat it. Like, why would I? Mm-hmm. Why would I get it into my system? Like what I, what, what contributes to like the, the, the, the, um, I guess bad health, for lack of better terminology. Yeah. Well, it is, I, I remember as a kid having like a foam cup and you Yeah. You start playing with it and you break it apart. Yeah. And I'm sure there's kids around the. Around me and around the world who are, you know, have eaten foam. But even, even if you're at the point in your life where you're not gonna eat that, yeah, that foam cup, plastic foam is made from a product called styrene.

28:23 Um, and styrene is toxic to the human nervous system. It's also a probable carcinogen, which, what that means is it probably causes cancer in people and it easily leeches into food and beverages. So it comes outta that plastic foam cup or your, um, clamshell container that's holding your takeout. That chemical can leach out and, um, into, into you. And one of the things about styrene is that it leeches out at. Even more at high temperatures. So to think of that hot cup of coffee in a foam cup, yeah. That's even more problematic. 'cause that heat is leading to more of that sty chemical being leached into the, into the coffee.

29:07 So it is quite ridiculous that when we, you know, are drinking a drink from a foam cup or we're eating something from a takeout container, we could be risking our health. And in the US, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends parents avoid polystyrene plastic, which is a plastic foam. It's a type of polystyrene. Mm-hmm. So we've got, you know, it's a probable carcinogen. It's leeches into our food and drink. And it also, p pediatricians are saying, don't, don't give this product to your children. Right. And all of that together seems like just something that we should. Say no. Yeah, we don't want this.

29:48 And then the other way that it can get into our body too, is we were talking about it breaks up, um, into those smaller and smaller pieces. Ultimately they become microplastics. Mm-hmm. Um, or nanoplastics. And they, they, and other types of polystyrene particles, they've been found in many parts of the human body, including in our brains, lungs, kidneys, blood and reproductive systems. So it is being found in all parts of the, the body. Now we know a lot about the chemicals like styrene. Mm-hmm. You know, there are a lot of chemicals in plastic that. The producers haven't shared what those chemicals are. So there's the chemicals are one part of the problem and we have some more information about that and we know it's problematic.

30:34 And then the other part are the tiny bits of plastic are ending up in people. And we don't know all the impacts of that. It's a newer area where science is really digging in there, but it seems problematic to have little particles of plastic throughout our bodies, whether that's in our brains or reproductive systems or, uh, in our hearts. And if you think about going back to chemicals, leaching out into coffee cup, if it's heated or, or warmed in any kind of way, you think about those particles, those plastic particles that are binding to molecules in our body, whether they be air molecules, whether they be blood molecules, those are leaching into our body.

31:16 And if you, if you extrapolate and you, we look at marine mammals who have had. Arsenic and other types of, of harmful metals in their, in their lipid, in their fats because of ingestion of plastics, a variety of plastics, not just styrofoam. And we see the effect that it has on their health. I think we can, because we are, you know, fairly closely related, we're both mammals. We can almost extrapolate and say, Hey, that this could happen to us. It could, it could degrade our system, our, our health, like our body as we go through and as we get older. And if we're certain of us, some of us are more vulnerable than others, depending on what other conditions that we have. And it's just, it'd be easy if it just didn't get into our system, if it wasn't in our supply chain and, and it, and it wasn't anything.

32:02 So That's great. And you did, you did mention that. That's exactly right. Yeah. You did mention in Canada, we do have a, a policy, I believe. I'm not sure where it's at right now. I have to, uh, I have to, uh. Touch base with Anthony right now, because last time I spoke, um, there were a number of, of chemical companies as well as fossil fuel companies who were suing the government, uh, for aspects of, uh, the, the, the aspect of, um, why this legislation went in, which is basically that that plastic is toxic to people, is what they put in the legislation. And so all, there's a number of different actions that came out. One of those was to ban, I think it was six specific single use plastics. Styrofoam was one of those, um, plastics. And, and then there's, there's stuff to come, a register, a registry of plastics, a tracking of plastics and, and so forth.

32:49 And I think they were, even though they, they didn't mind certain of those, those single use plastics being done, as Anthony mentioned from, from Ocean, ocean Canada. That's why I mentioning him. He said that, you know, they just don't want. Have to worry about anything in the future that could impede on their business. So it's a business decision, a lot of this stuff of why it's being kept in. Now, the interesting thing that, that gets me, and, and obviously I know like if you go to the government and you say, let's put in legislation to ban these products so that they can't put 'em into the system, which, like in Canada, I've seen firsthand, like it's been in, it's, I think it's been in since like 2022 or 2023, and it's phased in for certain, for certain products. Yeah. But I've anecdotally, I've seen it in our restaurants, especially where the takeout containers are now more like this, this corrugated, um, uh, like, like, um, paper basically.

33:41 It's like, it's, it's almost like, um, like what boxes are made of essentially is, is what it is, but lighter, supposed to be better recycled, like better compostable and stuff, and which is nice. Which is nice to see like that, that we see that I, I actually will only go to. To take out places that actually have that. So I won't go anywhere else because that's my choice. Like I'm, that's how I'm gonna choose. So I understand that going for government, it probably works it faster into the system. Um, but going to businesses and saying, Hey, look, here are some of the alternatives, here are the prices. If like, if somebody went into like, like a business, like a restaurant, say a takeout restaurant, say, here are some of the alternatives, like what would it take for you to switch? Like, has, has O Ocean Nna done any of those surveys with businesses and said, what would it take for you to switch over to something that's better for the health of your customers, but also same, same price point or similar price point and you know it's gonna be better for you and, and your customers.

34:35 Have you ever, has Oceania ever worked at that level with businesses or had partners that did the same thing? Yeah, we, at Oceania, we haven't done that. We, okay, so going business to business, a couple. Some coalition partners have been more engaged in that and some of the things that we do know. So ultimately the best solution is moving to a reusable or refillable product, right? So there are some companies in the US and if not yet soon, in Canada hopefully, that are doing reusable takeout containers, correct. Where you can order your takeout, whether it gets delivered to you or you're picking it up and it's gonna come in at a container that then you either give back to that delivery person or you can drop it off back at the restaurant where you got it.

35:22 Or some places have other drop off locations, it then gets washed and cleaned and returned for the, to a restaurant for, for use again. So yeah, systems like that are the best. Yes. Um, and then it, where that's not possible or doesn't exist yet. Something with that is a non-toxic. Uh, alternative is even better. Which it sounds like you found some places. Yeah, yeah. Places like that. And there are, um, some coalition partners in the US who have looked, or some other entities in the US who have looked into it and found that switching to reuse does ultimately you'll make your money back in the long term.

36:03 So there's some upfront investments for things like if you, your business doesn't have a dishwasher, yeah, you'll need to invest in that, but over several years you can, um, break even and even go beyond that. So there are some folks who are working on that. It's not something that we're working on, on the business to business level. We're really focused on that, that government policy. But the, um, some policies that could help in that would be having some grants that could then go to support this change over to, to reuse is another. I love that. That another thing that could help out. Yeah, that's a perfect, perfect answer because that's, I mean, it, it would take a lot of building relationships with businesses and obviously that takes a long time.

36:47 Uh, plus there's so many businesses out there that use these types of containers, uh, that it would be difficult to go to each and every one and say, Hey, like, this is what we need to do. Um, so now, you know, we, we, this, this type of knowledge is not necessarily new to a lot of people. Like to some, uh, businesses, some manufacturers, even governments have known that, you know, styrofoam has been a problem for, for quite some time. Are there any efforts, like policy efforts currently underway to, to change the law e either at local, state, or, or federal levels In the US. Yes. At all of those, at all of those levels, there are policies.

37:30 So the, in the US states and cities are doing a lot more than we've done on the national level, right? There's 12 states that have passed laws that are statewide laws that reduce single use plastic foam products. Some of those are food wear specific, some cover food wear and packing peanuts and the disposable foam coolers. Uh, we saw more that were introduced on the state level this year during legislative sessions. Some of those legislative sessions are still still going on. And we also got a bill that's been introduced in Congress called the Farewell to Foam Act. And what it would do would be to phase out plastic foam food ware, packing peanuts, and. Disposable cooler foam coolers around the, around the country.

38:13 And so that's been introduced in Congress, um, and it's gaining support and we're, we are spending time working on that as well as supporting state laws, um, and local policies too. So just last week, um, the city of Boston talked about inter uh, passing a bill that would phase out plastic foam there too in food wear. That's awesome. So we're, we're seeing all of this, a national law would be best 'cause it would cover, cover the whole country, but all of these pieces definitely, definitely help. Yeah. Well, and, and that's, that's always great and, and like obviously state and local levels are probably better to target these days than, than any other.

38:57 Um, but even before this new administration came in, were there any, uh, leaps in strides with the last administration that was in, in the US on. Because they seem to have obviously more of climate friendly policies and so forth, was was styrofoam part of their agenda to clean up or to address? It. Uh, so this bill had been introduced in the previous session of Congress. It didn't, it didn't pass, but there's Congress is on one side and then there's the administration. The right Biden administration did several policies that were, were good policies to phase out, not only plastic foam, but other single use plastics.

39:38 And one of the first ones that they did was in 2022, where the, um, secretary of the interior put in place a policy to phase out single use plastics in our national parks and other public lands that are overseen by the Interior department. It was on a pretty long timeline, so it was a 10 year timeline. Um, unfortunately that has now been overturned by the current Secretary of the Chin area interior, but that. Covered the previous policy, covered plastic foam, um, as well as other single use plastics and parks. Were starting to work, work on that. Now, that's a, a small but very visible part of the federal government. People in the US as I know this is true in Canada to Canada too, love our national parks.

40:22 Yeah. Um, and we have visitors from, from around the world. So phasing out single use plastic in such iconic places makes a, makes a big impact and people mm-hmm. See that the other thing that the Biden administration did was put in place a policy to phase out single use plastics across the federal government. Um, and that was also had a, you know, multi-year timeline, but a set of things that they wanted to do by, by 2027. Okay. They just put that policy in place last summer. So there wasn't significant progress made on it by the time that their administration ended. Mm-hmm. But it was, um. You think of like, oh, the federal government doing something that might not be big, but the US government is the largest purchaser of goods and services in the entire world.

41:08 So if they make a change on their purchasing and stop purchasing single use plastics and move to other reusable and refillable products or other non-toxic products, that's gonna make a big, a big impact. So we were really excited about that policy. That has been put in place. Um, it is not moving forward at this point in time. Right. But we're hopeful to see things like that again down the road. Um, but in the meantime, building support in Congress and also working on the, on state and local policies too. Because one of the cool things about this all is that we know even from some examples in the US when a city or a state puts in place a policy to phase out plastic foam, it has, it makes an impact.

41:55 Um, and this is not all places have data that shows mm-hmm. What the pollution was like in a river or in a bay mm-hmm. Ahead of time. But for example, up in Maryland, which is, I'm in Washington, DC it's just north in DC Yeah. They, um, saw in Maryland's. In our harbor in Baltimore, they sent 80% reduction in the plastic foam that was collected by a big trash interceptor called Mr. Trash Wheel. After their statewide food ban went into foam food wear, ban went into effect. I love Mr. Trash Wheel, by the way. You Oh, Mr. Trash. Oh, good. Yeah, I, I'm a fan of Mr. Trash Wheel as well. Anything with googly eyes is fun.

42:36 Exactly. We, we don't have that in, we don't have Mr. Trash Wheel in dc but we, um, here in DC the city put in place a single use plastic foam ban about 10 years ago, and in the first year, there are trash traps along the, the Anacostia River, which runs through the city. There was a 50% reduction in plastic foam at the end of the first year, and then after five years, that pollution fell 88%. So it's here when a, like a city or a state puts in place these policies, you can see big reductions in the amount of. Foam that is collected by these, you know, these trash collectors. Yep. Um, and it's not just because people are being more careful with it.

43:18 They're just not using as much of it. 'cause there's been, it's been phased out. So if we can get that across the country, it can make a, a big impact. And as your law gets implemented in Canada, that also mm-hmm. Can make an a big impact. Um, good news from Canada. You know, not only is it about the plastic foam, but it deals with other single use plastics. Yeah. For plastics too, for sure. Um, and Anthony can definitely give you an update. I think it's still, it's still, I think there's still court cases still moves forward and then there's still court cases too. Yeah, I think now. I think, I think they, I think the government won the appeal, I think. 'cause now it's going, still going back to court. Last time I checked I think is, is what it was. So, but it is, the law is still in place. That's what, that's what the, the, the beautiful part is.

44:00 Yeah. Um, now let's talk about campaigns. Um, you know, during like at, especially at the federal level these days, uh, it's obviously harder. You know, we're not, we won't go into detail about that 'cause we don't need to go into detail. Um, from, from the point of view of someone who campaigns and, and you know, from Oceana who has, well, I would say a lot of, of, of, uh. Clout, you know, in terms of bringing factual information, bringing concerns that people have, like their, your constituents have on, you know, plastic pollution and styrofoam. When you go up against, uh, an administration like this, and not just the actual president administration, but when you have, you know, congress of, of one party, that may not make a lot, uh, or may not be known these days as environmental policy makers, even though back in the seventies they were the ones who put in like some of the most, you know, wonderful, uh, policies, you know, like the Magnuson Stevens Act, the Marine Mammal Protection Act, and so forth.

45:01 Um, from your perspective, how do you approach the change of, of, of a, a. Of an administration from the different executive levels, you know, from, from the, the congress, from senate to, to, to the, the president, uh, even, even the Supreme Court where, where court cases sometimes are used to, to get things changed. How does Oceano approach this? And you've specifically approach an, uh, a, an administration that may not be as, as responsive to these types of, of campaigns? Yeah, that's a good, a good question. The, the starting point for me is that in the good news, within.

45:45 Things that are more, more challenging is that the public really cares about this issue. Mm-hmm. And that's for plastic and that's also for other, other ocean issues. I obviously know more on the, on the plastic sides, but as we've done pooling year after year, there's strong support across the political spectrum. Mm-hmm. And on plastics in particular, just taking the foam piece of that, we did a. We released a poll, um, that earlier this year that found 78% of registered US voters support policies on the national level to reduce single use plastic foam. And so that's not only democratic support, it's also Republican support, it's also independent support.

46:26 And that's pretty consistent with the That's awesome. The polling that we've done, and that is getting 78% of Americans to agree on anything Yeah. Is quite remarkable. And so that, that's a clear sign that they care about this issue. They're concerned about the plastic foam that harms the health of ocean animals. And that polling, we asked a question about that on just concern and found 88% of US voters were concerned about the plastic foam and the harms to, to ocean wildlife. So there's strong public support for this. And then the challenge there is making sure that that message gets to the, the decision makers. I think. Across party lines.

47:06 There is concern about the, about plastics. Mm-hmm. There's concern about the impacts of plastics on the ocean. There's, as we learn more about microplastics and the impacts on human health, there's concern about that too. And then the challenge there is getting that concern from members of Congress, in this case, to change to action. And yeah. Unfortunately, one of the things that happens is that sometimes people default to the solution is recycling. 'cause that's what we've heard. Yes. For Yes. 30, 50, 60 years. That if we just recycled more plastic, that's gonna solve the problem. That's not gonna solve the problem. It's not gonna solve it for plastics overall.

47:47 It's not gonna solve it for plastic foam. So of all the plastic waste created, only 9% has been recycled. Mm-hmm. The rest mm-hmm. Ends up in landfills, burned in incinerator, or ends up in the environment, including the ocean. Plastic foam. Even, even worse, the current recycling rates for that in the US are less than 1% of plastic foam. Yeah. Is recycled. Yeah. So there's, the good part of that, as I was saying, is that people are concerned about this issue that's the public at large, um, as well as our decision makers in Congress. Um, but we need to push on the, on the solutions and we know it's gonna take, take time.

48:29 Mm-hmm. Um, for an administration that's not pushing strong environmental policies, it means we spend more time defending the policies that are on the books. So some of the Gotcha. The laws that you were just mentioning, where going back to protect the Marine Mammal Protection Act, were Yeah. Protect, working to protect Noah, which oversees a lot of the mm-hmm. The oceans and the protections. Um, and that is. It would be much better if we were pushing, being able, it would be much better if we were able to push forward strong policies that did even more. But right now we're at the point where it's on the national level. It's about a lot about defending the laws that are on the book and finding champions and supporters in Congress from both political parties who are gonna gonna do that.

49:15 And where there are even more opportunities in the short term is on the, on the state level. Wonderful. And let's be honest too, like some of these policies don't just get written up in one day and then put it through Congress, and then they're, they're voted on and they go through and they're done like the next day. This, sometimes these take years to put together. Uh, you know, unfortunately, sometimes it takes years for people to gain the support like within, within Congress or on a federal level, even state level and even local level. Uh, and so there's, so like what I, I guess my question is, is there's no need to stop because of specific administration may not want to put it through. You continue to. Bring it forward, but also knowing that at some point there's gonna be somebody who's interested in this and will, will be the champion or champions to, to push it through.

50:02 Correct. Definitely. So yeah, it is, um, we'll make as much progress as we can right now and defend all the laws that we can right now, and we need, you know, the public needs to get engaged with that and support that. But it is also, this will be long term. So if we can't pass a bill to phase out plastic foam across the country this year, they, we'll keep building towards next year and the year after. They'll ultimately, we've built up enough support to do it and that's why that public concern, getting people to talk to their local elected officials, whether that's their mayor or their city counselor or their member of Congress, it's so important for that concern then to change that into, into action.

50:44 Yeah. And, and let's be honest, if you put it through local and state levels and you see progress in there, that might, you know, trigger somebody at the federal level to be like, oh, this actually worked. How did it work? Okay, let's put, let's use this aspect in this state and let's use this aspect in this state and let's put it together. So there's, there's a lot of benefit in doing it at the different, at the different levels. Let me ask you this, this is something that I've been curious about and I haven't seen any data on it, but, and it's more anecdotal from responses that I have. Anytime I post up anything plastic related or plastic pollution related, we, we've covered it a a number of times over the 10 years of this podcast. I get, you know, people over those, those 10 years have been like, oh, well, you know, the plastic straw thing, it's, it's, it's ruined everything.

51:25 And why are we protecting plastic straws? I've even heard some people like, who cares about sea turtles? Which by the way, they're no longer on my friend list and follow the list. I mean, sea turtles are need to be protected. They are angels in their own little, right. But I, I, I digress. Um. Has the, has the focus on plastic straws since that, you know, that that video that went viral where the plastic straw was pulled outta that sea turtle has it hindered the ability to put through plastic, uh, uh, or anti plastic or plastic, um, policies to handle not only, you know, plastic straws, but others. Have you found that to, to happen?

52:05 Has that been studied or looked at in any kind of way that you know of? I don't know if there's been any, any studies. I think like that particular sea turtle that had that Yeah. Straw and it's knows that, I'm sure lots of your listeners have Oh, yeah. Seen that. Yeah. Or people it now. Right. It had a, it had a big impact. Right, right. Nobody, equity. Most people, um, unlike your ex-friend, do care about sea turtles and do, like, are concerned about that. So I think that had a really big impact. If we dealt with all the problems of plastic straws and people we moved to reusable straws, or people who don't need a straw, didn't use a straw. Like if we solve that problem, there's still a lot more plastic in the, in the world that we need to need to address.

52:53 Right. So it's not the big focus of our campaigns, right? We're looking more at the single use plastic packaging and the plastic bags. And the plastic foam, um, as a, you know, as this report mm-hmm. Shares. Um, so I think it has been really like that sea turtle really good in educating people about that a problem exists. Um, it is, it's not just about the straws, it's about so much. Yeah, of course. So much more so. It is. And I think that's important for people to keep in mind and to, and to know. And we've just gotta keep educating people if they think it's been solved 'cause we dealt with the straws or they don't wanna Yeah.

53:33 Talk about straws anymore. There's Right. A whole lot of other single use plastic that is having an impact on the public's health. It's on our oceans, on the marine wildlife. All of those are things that we, we need to address. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I completely agree with you. I just, I find it interesting that if people keep bringing it up and I'm like, we're still focused on this, I could, I, I call it the gateway plastic, you know, like the gateway drug. Like it's a gateway plastic to really understanding us how our use of single use plastics can affect the environment. Um, I do love how, you know, the, the plastic foam was the focus of this rapport. I think breaking it down and really putting into pieces that people can really understand and saying, Hey, look, if we take action on this and we reduce this, this could have.

54:18 A really great benefit for our ocean health. With that said, if this does get passed, what can, can people expect to see with, with ocean health in terms of like even our own health if this gets out of production? Yes. Well, so as we were just talking about with the straws, there'll still be, there'll still be more to do. It isn't the whole problem, but it is an important piece of the problem and it is one of the most problematic ones that we should just move on for. I think some of the things, we'll see it, it's currently one of the most common types of plastic found in beach cleanups in the US and I believe that's also true in other parts of the world. So we should see a big decrease in that.

54:59 So that means there's less foam that's ending up on our beaches and in our oceans, there'll be hopefully less. Plastic foam coffee cups that people are drinking out of. So it, it won't solve the whole problem, but it will make it so that we are using less of this problematic chemical called styrene, that the little bits and pieces of plastic foam are not breaking up and ending up in our, on our coast, on the beaches, in our waterways. And that animals then are ingesting it and either choking on it or just taking those chemicals through their, their bodies. So it will make a big impact and it should be a good first important step for the US to do in terms of national policy.

55:43 There definitely will be more to do. Um, yeah, and we can, for us, we can look to the states and to other countries to see what else to do, but it is a good important first step that will have an impact on the amount of plastic going into, into our oceans and that the plastic that we're being exposed to. Awesome. Good. Good to know. Now if, you know, my audience is. They're, they're ready. They're hyped. They're, they want to help. They always ask Andrew, how can I help? How can I help with this like, piece of legislation or policy to get through? Or how can I help with this campaign? So, you know, this is your chance. Talk to directly to the audience and be like, how can they help with this specific campaign for Oceania?

56:26 Great. That is a, I love that question. Um, because there's lots of things that folks can do to help. The, um, biggest thing for folks in the US who are concerned about this issue, can you, is talk to your members of Congress, ask, tell them about the problem of plastic foam, tell 'em about the impacts on the oceans and the marine life and human health, and ask them to support the bill, which is called the farewell, the Foam Act, really straightforward. Mm-hmm. Phases out the single use plastic foam. And we need, we need more supporters and we need more Democrats and more Republicans to, to support the bill. So that's a great thing that people in the, the US could do if you're a member of Congress is already on board with that, talk to your, um, state and local officials too about how they can, they can get involved.

57:15 Um, and in Canada, it seems like more work to do there too, but you guys are on the, on the way. Absolutely. We have a, we have a little bit of a, a pipeline problem these days, but we, that's a different issue and, and something that we have to address in the long term. But, uh, you know, our plastics, I'm very pleased that we, that we were able to come up with, uh, like our, our government was able to come up with that, um, in, uh, in a, in good time. Like it was, it was really nice. It was definitely needed and, and hopefully we, that can be expanded upon and, and, and made even more prolific, uh, throughout the thing. We see more changes. So, I mean, it's, it's, once it's done. And it's in, in effect. It's, it's really nice to see, you know, the alternatives start to come out and businesses be happy about it and stuff.

57:57 And, and I, I really, uh, I really look forward to seeing that in the US as well when we, when we visit. So, uh, Chrisy, thank you. Me, me too. Yeah, exactly right. But I just wanna say I forced to share that with you. Yep. Yes. Yes. We'll have you back on to, to kind of give us an update on this, on this policy and see where, where it went and what, how we can help in, in other ways and, and so forth. Um, my audience is your audience, so just let us know, you know, what, what, what we can do. 'cause that's what we want to do. We want help. So, Christy, I wanna thank you so much, uh, for, for coming on the podcast and sharing this with us is something that's extremely important to me. I'm sure it's extremely important to the people listening to this, this episode. And, and we really appreciate the help and the work that you and Oceania have done over the years and continue to do, uh, now and in the future.

58:38 So thank you so much. Thank you. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you, Christy, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I am going to put the link for everybody who listened to this, to the report in the show notes, so you can get access to that very quickly. Highly recommend that you did. It's very easy read, lots of pictures, lots of cool writings, and just kind of a call to action, quick facts, so forth. It's really great. I think everybody should be reading something like this, even looking at these little styrofoam pellets and how much they look like eggs and how much they can be eaten or look like food, and they can be eaten by sea birds, sea turtles, marine mammals such as seals and sea lions and dolphins, and orcas of all different fish.

59:21 Just all different sharks, all different types of animals in the sea, but also on land. So something that's very hazardous. It's hazardous to us. We know that for sure leeches out chemicals and there's no need for them anymore with all the different types of alternatives. So check out the call to action. Do what you can. Any kind of questions that you have, you can contact me. You can go to speak up for blue.com/contact, and this goes to Bright to my personal email. You can also go to join the undertow that's at Speak up for blue.com/join the undertow to be guided to look at how we can help more of these campaigns in the future and help Oceania out and help Christie out and her colleagues and their partners, of course. But this is not the last you'll hear from Oceana. We have a couple of other interviews lined up with different aspects of their responsibilities and of their programs, and I can't wait to bring those to you as well as updates to this campaign.

1:00:11 So I wanna thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lone from the True Nord strong and free. Have a great day, we talk to you next time and happy conservation.