Pacific Islands Marine Monument Rollback and Court Reversal Explained

0:00 On today's episode we're gonna be finding out what the hell is going on with the Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument in the US In the Pacific Islands. This is something that has been unprecedented It's been protected for over 10 years and all of a sudden on day one of his presidency Donald Trump opened it up for fishing because he wanted the United States to be number one in fishing in the Pacific What is that going to do to the protected area to all the stuff that happened in the particular area when it was shut down? Do we even know if fish grew in numbers in size during that protection? We need more science to do this and Angela Villa Gomez for the Center of American Progress is here to talk about Why we need more science and monitoring during this time and we're gonna talk about the core case that actually shut down the opening of this Marine National Monument and we're gonna talk about it on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. Let's start the show Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast I'm your host Andrew Lewin and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean how you can speak up for The ocean what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action on today's episode We are going to be talking about the Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument in the US This has been something that has been around the news since day one of the Donald Trump's presidency Where he erased the US commitment to 30 by 30 the global goal to protecting?

1:19 30% of land and sea by 2030 not long after his administration Turned his attention to the Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument one of the largest fully protected marine areas in the world spanning over 1.3 square miles of protected area for a decade These waters had been off-limits to commercial fishing serving as a sanctuary for corals pelagic fish and countless migratory species But on April 17 2025 Trump issued a proclamation 109 108 declaring that commercial fishing in the monuments expansion area posed no risk to scientific or historical objects This opened the door for fishing between 50 and 200 nautical miles around Wacotl Johnson atoll and Jarvis Island waters that had once been completely protected the proclamation Directed Noah and the Western Pacific fishery management council to rewrite the rules weighing options from keeping Protections in place to removing them entirely It was the first day and only rollback of marine protection under Trump and it sparked immediate lawsuits from conservation groups Then just two weeks ago the court struck down Trump's proclamation on a technicality Reclosing the monument to fishing at least for now the case highlights How fragile these protections can be when created by presidential proclamation instead of legislation and it raises larger concerns What does this mean for the US commitment to 30 by 30?

2:42 How much power should presidents have to undo decades of conservation progress and what happens to the fish corals and communities that depend on these waters? Today we are going to explore the politics science and the future of marine protection in the Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument by speaking to Angela Villa Gomez a good Friend of the podcast and myself who's from the Center of American Progress in Washington DC He's gonna be talking about the US monument He's gonna be talking about how important it is and why we need to find out more about just getting science data and understanding What has happened over the last 10 years with the expansion of the monument and how that's helped or maybe not helped fish in general for growing in number and size and we're gonna just discuss a lot of the things that are happening in the US and how that could be a distraction because there's so much going on and How it could be a distraction to making sure that this marine protected area stays closed So we're gonna talk all that in this episode.

3:36 Here's the interview with Angelo Villa Gomez enjoy and I will talk to you after hey Angelo Welcome back to the how to protect the ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about marine sanctuaries? I am It's been a hot minute since I saw you. I think the last time we talked we were both in France together Yes, the UN ocean conference. That's right, and we were actually jumping into the water That's right. We did not win. No because we were we were participating in the the manu the international manu competition which is manu is a Polynesian word of jumping into the ocean means bird, but it's a style of jumping in the ocean and New Zealand and you and I are not from New Zealand No, and we you were the Canadian purchase was I was I was the American participant And we did not win. It was a good time. We've been times had life It was it I mean you're you were jumping off like it wasn't too high You were much braver than than the rest of us were by just jumping off that first cliff wasn't that high Beautiful water nice and refreshing It was nice to do it at a conference where we get to have some fun as well and it was great people So that was that was a lot of fun.

4:45 But like let's talk Before we start this the way you jump in you got to go like butt first like first Yeah, that's the the biggest splash. Yeah, so when I was growing up as a kid I thought a cannonball right was the been slow, right? So you sort of like you tuck in with hands and then boom you hit the water and splash We've done it wrong our entire lives But foods the best splash is achieved by putting your derriere into the water first Which is not that easy, right? Like you got to get a jump in the air So like there's you know, you gotta get some lift and some distance and then flip your legs out in front of you and land Yeah But first and not on your back because that would hurt even more, you know, but so you got to like be pretty good It takes some practice. I did not practice. I was not good. I did one thing and I'm like, I'm out I gotta go but that was that was a lot of fun, but we're not here to talk about that Although that was very fun. We should probably we could probably do an entire episode on that We are here to talk about a marine protected areas in particular a marine sanctuary called the Pacific Island Heritage Marine National Monument Quite quite a title, but also it represents a lot. So Angela before we get started with that Can you just tell me just remind the audience who you are and what you do?

6:04 My name is Angelo. I live in Washington DC work for an organization called Center for Marine Center for American Progress And I'm an ocean advocate and I was actually at the designation at the very beginning of the Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument I went to the White House and I was an advocate for Mariana Trench Marine National Monument Right the president George W Bush in his last two weeks office designated three large protected areas out in the Pacific Ocean In US waters and I got to watch him sign the piece of paper that actually created this big protected area and it is the US has a number of different islands out in the Pacific Everyone's heard of Hawaii We also have Guam the Northern Mariana Islands American Samoa, but there's also this series of seven uninhabited islands And they're they're collectively called the Pacific remote islands area and it's like wake at all Jarvis Palmyra Kingman at all and President Bush created a marine protected air very large marine protected area around all seven of these islands that they're not contiguous And so it was like five different big squares out in the middle of the ocean, right?

7:23 And then a few years later we had a new president. Barack Obama was president and he made three of those five big squares into giant circles They initially went out from shore to 50 miles and he extended them out to 200 miles. Okay, and then President Trump Donald Donald J. Trump came into the White House and He's threatened all of America's public lands and waters. He said we're going to drill baby drill We're gonna mine the deep sea and the first Action that he took against public lands and waters was to open up a big chunk of this protected area to fishing when Obama Expanded it he expanded it to 1.3 million square kilometers And Trump opened up about a million of that to fishing. So more than half this is this is yeah One million out of 1.3. So 1.3.

8:31 Sorry those talking about 1.8. Yeah, yeah, yeah 7080% yeah, so that was back in April and the Government office in Hawaii, not Noah they issued a letter to all the fishermen Permit holders and said you can now fish in this protected area And almost immediately a whole bunch of boats like 10 or 20 went into the protected area and you can go to global fishing watch Dot-com and you can you know put in the right parameters zoom in Find the right dates and you can see those fishing vessels. Yeah, they're in there and they're catching tuna They're based in Hawaii going down to the protected area Which is a couple thought like maybe a thousand miles away and then going back up to Hawaii and offloading their fish The conservation community was not happy about this, right?

9:21 And the Trump administration was sued by several groups in Hawaii. The lawsuit was filed by Earth Justice Which is a great organization and about two weeks ago Earth the courts decided that the Trump administration had broken the law When they used that letter to open this area up to fishing Because America is still a country of laws and we have a fisheries law called Magnuson Stevens And the the Trump administration had not followed the letter of the law So the judge closed the area to fishing again. So it was opened up in April shut down a couple of weeks ago and now There the fishing interests are Trying to get that process going that you know that legal government process that could open this area to fishing and we're seeing that happening in real time That's a lot that happened in such a short time, you know, like you know where you know Donald Trump President Donald Trump takes away the Or opens it up for fishing So what's the reasoning that he used behind opening it up? Is it more of like the drill baby bill?

10:38 We're gonna fish everything. We want to be the biggest fisheries in a country Yeah, that's that's ultimate. That's ultimately what it comes down to. Yeah, is that we're going to we're gonna have energy dominance We're gonna have fisheries dominance. We're gonna fish everywhere We're gonna have the greatest economy What it's just it's very short-sighted the United States has had Protected lands and waters for the last hundred and fifty years when our first national parks were protected And we this country can absolutely have the best managed fisheries in the world and the best network of protected areas And and the goals of sustainable fishing and of habitat management or hand habitat protection Are not the same, you know that when you are advocating for sustainable fishing What your ultimate goal is to do, you know, I mean it's much more complicated than this Yeah, you want you want to get to a place where you have?

11:36 Sustainable fishing. Yeah, where the the number of fish being taken out are being replaced every year So that you're you have a steady catch in fishermen can have jobs and there's fish on people's plates But the goals of conservation are often not the same, you know, they're sustainable fishing is not a net zero or it's not a Environmentally neutral activity on there still are outcomes to it. There's bycatch. Yep The fish do die So, you know, there's changes in the fisheries assemblage. Usually you'll see Maybe the sometimes the fish populations will go down. But sometimes the fishes of the sizes smaller and again You know, this is different depending on the stock. So of course, yeah, I just paint with a broad brush for everything, right?

12:28 But we can have fisheries and protected areas and for the last 20 years it's worked The way the United States manages its tuna fisheries in the Pacific For the boats in Hawaii is with a quota And that quota was I think three thousand five hundred tons. It was recently increased to seven thousand tons Just this year. I Think last year before it was increased doubled. Okay They've never had an issue reaching the quota, right? You know this they've it's not like there's fish that are being left uncaught, right? It's the the the fleet has operated and is very successful Yeah, and we've had these protected areas at the same time, right?

13:15 So with it the idea is saying hey look we the cash per unit effort hasn't really changed They're able to meet their quota They're able to even to double it and there and the fisheries population so far the tuna population is fine Because it's well managed because there's marine protected areas because of this we're looking at what how many years when was it designated? 2000 Expanded in 15 so it's been The area that's open has been closed for like a decade. Yeah And you know, I'm glad you asked that question because you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you Is because this area had been closed to fishing for 10 years. Yeah, and then it was opened from April to August and Fish were caught and I want to see that data. Yeah for sure because It doesn't have to be me but I want like scientists who I trust to see that data Yeah, I'm gonna and I could actually this could be a great collaboration between MPA scientists and fishery scientists Because what the fisheries scientist what the fisheries folks are saying is that these protected areas have had no benefit to the fishery You know, they've they've been a complete waste of time. They've harmed the fishermen But what the MPA scientists say is that they've actually Led to spillover effects that you know in the way that's been measured With studies in the past is has been Fishermen are fishing the line.

14:40 Yeah right on there saying By fishing the line that's evidence that the fishermen know that there's more fish inside the protected area and fishermen are brilliant smart people Yeah, dedicate their entire lives to catching fish. They know how to catch fish. They know the best ways to catch fish They know how to catch it as fast as possible So that they can make as much money as possible So I like it when fishermen are going to the borders of marine protected areas. It's because they know something Yeah, like it's not it's not random. Yeah But with this fisheries data that we have for these couple of months Can we look at the catch per unit effort? You know, how many hooks were dropped in the water and how many fish were on the line? And how long did they soak those hooks in the water to catch those fish?

15:24 I think that's actually pretty easy to capture and the NOAA used to put all that data on their website But the last couple years it hasn't been there I'd also be interested in looking at the sizes of the fish that may be a little bit more difficult But when those fish are offloaded in Hawaii and you can actually go to this port It's like the coolest thing in the world It's one of the the oldest biggest ports for fish in the United States and as the fish come off the boat Every single one of them gets a barcode So they have some of the like this amazing data on like literally individual fish for going back to it Like and with that they'll get like size and length. Yeah.

16:05 Yeah all this where it was caught. Yeah Incredible data and then each one of those fish gets auctioned off And then you know gets into Japan it gets into the mainland it gets eaten in Hawaii. Yeah, whatnot You know one reason that each of those fish get a barcode by the way is because they're each fish is but as valuable as a iPhone yeah, yeah, they're like thousands. Yes big tuna that go for a thousand bucks That most high quality fish are going for real high the bycatch is going for really for a lot less And then like this could actually be a really important moment for understanding Marine protected areas with a highly migratory species, right? Yeah um, and you know, there's the UN General Assembly is happening in September and There's hope that enough countries will ratify this high seas agreement And there's gonna be this push for marine protected areas on on the high seas And this is fisheries data.

17:05 This is not modeling. This is not actually This is I have the number of fish that were caught. I know where it was caught. I know how big they are Will this prove that this MPA has worked it's been 10 years. Yeah And you know, I'll give you this like on the flip side. What if we're wrong? Mm-hmm, you know that that's also important If if there's been no change in the catch per unit effort if there's been no change in the size of the fish Has this marine protected area actually been effective? I mean, that's it. That's the big that's the big question And that's what science is for right? It's so it's you prove that whether it is or not Has it been effective basically if this fish have grown on average, you know, they're bigger They're they're they're longer.

17:51 They're they weigh more Ideally because they haven't been touched in 10 years. So they've had a Population growth and that's the beauty about fish is that you can see that that difference pretty quickly and we've seen that in other MPAs this one that would be probably the first in the Pacific where we have this kind of long-term study Did they have information on that like because Noah has always been good with information and sharing information Do they have information on those fish before? This MPa went in before fishing. There is yeah, there it used to all be online. I don't know if it still is right But the data is there somewhere Yeah, this part of the Pacific is called the Pacific remote islands area. Yeah, and then the long line data That was online.

18:34 It used to be broken up. There's the main Hawaiian Islands. There's the Northwest Hawaiian Islands There's the Pacific remote islands area and then there's the high seas and so it's actually it's really interesting to go into that data and you know and see the ebb and flow of You know, what are they catching? How many sharks are they catching? What's your bike edge? Yeah, and I'd like I'm pretty sure there's 20 30 years of that data That that one could look at so yeah, it's really incredible. You can look at the fisheries data before You know, there's no fisheries data while it's protected right then we've got these couple of months. Yeah You know and again, you know, it's a small small chunk. Yeah. Yeah for sure You know, there's these fish may be seasonal, you know What was the water temperature or is it an El Nino year? Like, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of variables there But there's something yeah There's also Some social science that could be done, you know before the opening There were a lot of claims that there would be social and health benefits for American Samoa There there's a cannery there and You know one of the arguments for opening it is that you know opening up these areas to fishing would support the American Samoan Economy and the community And I'm not a social scientist right but there are social scientists who may have ideas on How do we how do we study this? I mean, can we do interviews? Can we look at some of the economic data?

20:04 When it was opened was more fish delivered to the cannery? And again, you know complicated yeah There's there's these tariffs You may have heard of in the I haven't heard yeah, not much about it. Yeah, yeah It's possible that these tariffs are more influential than like the actual fishing And again, I'm not an economist, but you know, there are people who can study this But I recently had a short piece appear in nature The Journal of Nature by the way, okay guys, that's huge. Like that's a big that's a big that's a big paper I collaborated with two of the MPa guide scientists, dr. Kirsten and dr. Jenna and then Dr. Steven who's one of my collaborators collaborators on many projects.

20:56 He's from Saipan Yeah, he's native Hawaiian and he's now a professor at Cornell And that was basically just our claim is like hey, you know, we're scientists. Let's go science Yeah now now with this like who do you like? normally It'd be Noah that would gather this data right and they would put out technical reports and so forth and then they would look at that So I guess the first question is how has there been? Has has have researchers been allowed in there to look at the stock while it was closed down? Because sometimes they're allowed and sometimes they're not. Yeah, no there was um There has been some research fish fishing And I like even this year there was a permit that was submitted to do some research fishing inside The protected area. So there is some stuff out there Yeah Just to look at that size as it's kind of grown over the 10 years or if they've grown over that over that 10 years The other question is like since no one normally does this Is there a worry that like like has the government ever said that they're gonna look at this data like like the government now?

22:02 Like that's in that's in power. So the short answer is Like we're in trouble Something like one in four Noah employees who work there in January no longer work for the agency, right? And then with the doge cuts There have just been cuts all across the agency and I have Numerous friends and colleagues who are out of work. We're not who no longer serve in our government. So You know, I think this is important. I think this is a global. I think this is globally important So trying to call attention to it The government has so much money, you know, the US government budget last year was like six billion dollars In philanthropy just sorry six trillion Six trillion dollars in Noah Had the government has more money than philanthropy. So philanthropy cannot back end all of this but I I think that There there could be some discrete pieces that we could look at and one of those discrete pieces that I would want to say is how does that fisheries data compare to Now because like Science is happening in real time. It's closed again It's probably gonna be opened again, right?

23:32 Yeah, we'll talk about that in just a second Even if we get the you know, get the plant in place like we still need to study the future And then I also think this the socioeconomic stuff needs to be better understood because There this is still a very controversial protected area You know, there are some folks who would like to see it enlarged There are some people who are kind of happy with what it is and want to see the management be put in place So people have very strong feelings about this and there's been Some social science work around the Mariana trench monument. Yeah, there's been a lot around the papahana mukuakea monument up in Hawaii But but I think there's opportunities for social scientists to study this And it's complicated because you know, this is it kind of appears between Hawaii Mariana's Micronesia American Samoa and it's it's a public trust It's not owned by any one group of Americans. It's owned by all of the Americans in the entire country And I just think there could be some greater understanding that scientists could bring to what's going on To make recommendations on how we move into the future.

24:44 Yeah, I agree I think it I mean it'd be a study of a lifetime really looking at that size of an area closed down for ten years Being able to study it whether it be a collaboration of academics philanthropists government Even for the government I would I would imagine they would like to see if this thing works or not You know just from a from a point of view of you know Where is the best way forward if you want to be the top fishing nation in the Pacific? Wouldn't it be good to have great fish that's available Year after year after year instead of having trouble later on after your catch per unit effort goes down You know trying to catch these fish. So obviously that's a that's a big deal Let's talk about I'd like to talk a little bit about and we've talked about this before when you've been on the podcast But I want to reiterate this There's been a when we go into the designation of these marine sanctuaries, especially in the Pacific area Pacific Ocean for the US It's it seems to always be designated by a president. So George W Bush.

25:48 Yeah, Barack Obama even the changes to it has been done by You know by by Donald Trump and and it seems like you can just change on the whim You know, it doesn't seem like it's a good long-term plan You would think normally presidents would really like, you know at the end of the George Bush area He wasn't a very environmentally focused But my understanding is that his wife really enjoyed the ocean really enjoyed protection of environment So that was the the influence there and that was sort of like his legacy at the end of that of his second term To be able to do that Barack Obama did he do in his first term or second term? Second second second So again, like it seems like more of a I'm gonna leave this legacy of environmental protection And and see and see where that goes. It seems like now it's just more of a I want We want the US to be the best at everything and fisheries is gonna be another thing But presidents can kind of go back and forth and whether they want to either expand it can keep it the same or take away Some protections that leaves these marine sanctuaries plus the people that benefit from these marine sanctuaries, you know vulnerable to changes Is it like is there a way that that the laws can be more stringent of of being actually being changed?

27:10 So I wish I could say it was unprecedented that a president would roll back and other presidents protected areas But this happened before under the first Trump administration, right? But in the United States is and I was trying to say this as nice as I can The United States is in a transition moment where the future of the United States Stands on a precipice of like we're going to kind of a dark place And this this relates to our public lands and waters. So for the last hundred years And the law that you're talking about that the president uses to protect lands and waters and you know The Grand Canyon was protected with this law And many other national monuments and national parks began with this Antiquities Act designation and for most of history Presidents did not overturn things that other presidents had recognized and these these lands You know initially some of them were just protected as scenic landscapes So that you know, Ansel Adams could go and take a picture of the of the Grand Canyon of these beautiful places But in the last century the reason for protecting lands and waters evolved so it like some of our lands Protect people or remember people.

28:29 Yeah, some of them Caesar Shavett is right Caesar Caesar Shavett so that the farm workers movement Civil rights monuments protect, you know, they remember these are public lands that remember the civil rights movement and out in the Pacific Indigenous culture has been a big part of these these monument designations so Presidents kind of accepted that we were protecting for scenic landscapes. We were protecting for biodiversity conservation We were protecting to remember important people important ideas important places and important moments in our history and Trump is kind of the first person to come along and Say now we're not gonna remember that And he's so he's doing it on public lands and waters But he's also doing it at the Smithsonian and he's doing it on government websites Like one of the first thing the New York Times has this incredible article where they identify 200 words that the Trump administration is scrubbing from websites and it's things like innocuous words like woman Mm-hmm Black, you know, like completely erasing the history gay. Yeah erasing these concepts from like the The world right?

29:48 Yeah, and so it's it's playing out in our museums. It's playing out in our government websites It's playing out in the way government manages itself, but it's also playing out in our public lands and waters and We thought that our norms would protect us we thought because it was always done that way It'll it won't have it won't ever happen in the future and you know, Bill Maher has this great bit that he's done a couple of times About that movie about the donkey that kicks field goals, right? And you know because there's no rule that you can't have a donkey on your football team The team went on having you know the donkey on the football team You know air by the air by the same thing. Yeah, there's no rule that the dog can't play basketball And that's kind of where we are with Trump is like he is just rolling back these things You know, there's no rule that you can't have the National Guard overthrow Washington, DC. Yeah Yet on my commute home Every metro station is full of National Guard troops.

30:51 Yeah. Yeah Because even though there's no rule say that you can or cannot he's just doing it Because that's so same by protected area So like what we can we can fight back we can ridicule them And this is shown to actually to work a little bit a couple weeks ago the Smithsonian announced a change at one of their exhibits about impeachment And you know public uproar ridicule and within 48 hours that they can't be able to get back to the city So within 48 hours that thing was back And it was the same thing. They erased Some stuff about Jackie Robinson the great baseball player who was the first black guy to play Major League Baseball There is they erased Some of the stuff about his military service on one of the Pentagon websites or something like that Ridicule and 24 hours it was back so Even though he's doing this stuff and you know, we think he's taking his cues from industry. He still wants to be popular And you know, he's there is still right and wrong. Yeah Yeah So we we fight in the courts and that's how this first battle was fought in the courts Yeah, Earth Justice was able to get that judge to agree with them and they were close to the fishing But we also will fight in the the court of public opinion. Yeah, and eventually we'll fight at the ballot box because You know, we need if we want to have ocean conservation. We need to elect people who support ocean

32:22 conservation Yeah, no, no doubt now. I want to talk about the reasoning why The judge the court shut this down like the opening of this National Marine Sanctuary So it's open for a few months people are fishing, you know having a great time fishing all that kind of stuff Seems like it's really great You know a lot of people that were not in ocean conservation saw the announcement that it was opened up You know, they'd have an uproar some people forgot to talk You know not talking about it as much because there's so much going on and then all of a sudden we get this court ruling saying hey, we're actually this is actually doesn't follow the Magnuson-Stevens Act. We're just going to Shut it like shut it back down because you know There's certain things that that the council says like they have or that the council hasn't met. It's like can you talk about what?

33:08 What was the reasoning behind the shutting it down again? Like why it wasn't To protect it again. Yeah to protect again. Yeah, shut it down Yeah, yeah, um because they're incompetent And they they honestly they lost on a technicality And they thought that they could take a shortcut. They thought that they could ignore the law This is the government There's a if you watch that TV show parks and recreation there was an episode where Ron Swanson wanted to have a barbecue in A park. Yeah, and he said I've got a permit right here and it said I'm the parks director I can do what I want And that's kind of what they thought they thought no, we're in charge. We can do whatever we want Yeah, but we're a nation of laws.

33:54 Yeah, so they they have to follow the law, right? And so they kind of lost on a technicality, which means this is not a permanent win This is that this is a temporary win where they now they have to follow the law Which means there's gonna be a public comment period Which means so the next battle is we flood the government with comments, right? And this is unpopular people support the protected areas like national parks national Everybody it's called, you know, it's the best idea America ever had people love our public areas So this stuff is incredibly unpopular and it's really just he's selling stuff off to the highest bidder, which in this case is Fishing interests, but he's doing the same thing all across the country to for oil companies and for mining companies Um I think it's interesting that Like is there is there not a law?

34:50 Is there is there a marine protected area law? Like is there a law that congress or the senate can put in? Yeah, the you know the NASA, sorry nasa noah is you know, this amazing amazing agency that has uh Uh satellites and you know billions of dollars and they can predict hurricanes and what? collect data for climate change but noah is within the department of commerce, right and uh The which is which is bizarre in itself. Yeah, uh, you know part of that It's been for a while a vestige of how the united states has been around and been managed over the years um but sustainable fishing uh with the the Net with noa fisheries is sort of the the driving world view of why our oceans exist Uh, and there's kind of there's basically There's a couple other tools out there um, but monuments and sanctuaries marine national monuments designated with the antiquities act and the national marine sanctuaries designated with the sanctuaries act Uh make up most of the acreage of our protected areas. Uh, we also have uh, the national the estuarian cardboard to say uh, the estuarian reserves, uh, there's also a number of National wildlife refuges that protect the ocean. Um, like buck island national wildlife refuge in the virgin islands So there's a couple of different tools out there um, but all of

36:20 these different tools were created by different laws and they they have uh, honestly like somewhat different personalities uh, and different goals and different reasons for existing or how they manage the ocean um And these are relatively new Uh, you know, so where are our national parks? Uh, yellowstone? uh I've been around since you know, the late 1800s early 1900s is when a lot of our our lands were protected uh, some of our big marine protected areas, uh, were only designated since like the 1960s or some of the oldest ones and in fact the the sanctuaries act Was designated in response to oil spills so the the uh in california so the threat that that act tends to focus on is uh oil Drilling, uh, so like the the seafloor Uh, and that's why you know the the chumash national marine heritage the chumash heritage national marine sanctuary that was designated Last year by biden actually doesn't address fishing right?

37:26 Um, it it's it mainly deals with uh The chumash culture and involving indigenous peoples in the protected area Uh, but it also has restrictions on oil oil exploration Uh, which which is which is an important threat. Absolutely. Yeah but uh, there is this long-standing conflict between Uh, the antiquities act fishing rules and the magnus and stevens act fishing rules because they have different purposes Uh, and I we talked about this at the beginning of our chat here is you know So that this the monta marine monuments are designated to protect Um artifacts. Yeah, and in this case the artifact is the ecosystem. Yes. Um, that's what it's it's meant to protect habitat fully In perpetuity, so it says there's for the most part.

38:13 There's no fishing Um in reality, there is a recreational fishing. There is um, some cultural fishing and there's also what is called non-commercial fishing um Uh, so yeah, like the the The bigger problem is is that the united states doesn't necessarily have the tools To create what other countries Call marine protected areas. We have we have monuments and sanctuaries Yeah, uh, and there's even like to be a nerd like there are some people who might argue that these national marine sanctuaries aren't marine protected areas Because they they don't do enough right because they're you know one specific thing or yeah I don't want to dive into like I I think um You know this you you've heard me talk about the strengths and weaknesses of 30 by 30 and The effort to protect 30 of the ocean Um, and this is some of the reality like what does 30 by 30 mean on the ocean, you know, there's Uh on land it's two-dimensional but on in the ocean it's three-dimensional right and how do we how do we manage that?

39:19 um also fish swim Uh, so how do we how do we manage that and not only make one boundary? Yeah, how do we measure that? Yeah um, and and so I I think uh, some of these borders that we draw uh You know, it's We're doing what we can managing it with the tools that we have available um But managing the ocean is is much more complicated than just saying 30 of the ocean is a marine protecting area. It's um, and even getting to that 30 percent you also have to ask the question of How did we get there? What was the process that we went through? And then who were the people that were involved? Um and going through that process I think there's also something to say too like, uh, you know you and I have been watching You've been involved in in in the designation of marine protected areas of all sorts from all over the world I've been watching and I studied it in university and so forth and there's something to be said about even A marine protected area first being designated may not have all the protections It needs to fully protect that area But then you can build on it as it grows and as you know The first the first step is to get it designated obviously not you don't want a paper park where Nothing is enforced and nothing is managed. But even if you get one thing managed Hopefully later on you can increase the size like like this one was done Or you can increase the amount of protections or you can designate certain areas like a bit like the the multi-management style that the grapeberry reef Marine park has And maybe you

40:50 know install that and have like certain protections in certain areas as you discover more of that area and you research More of that area and how beneficial it is and where to pinpoint? Um, you know spawning areas or nursery areas and so forth of specific fish stocks um There's there's something to be said about establishing and building upon that it may not be perfect But we know in this world nothing's going to be perfect when you first start it off and it takes a long time And a lot of effort to designate uh an mpa Not you know notwithstanding any kind of difficulty in getting certain things protected and certain things not it's it's a it's a long-term goal to be able to do this for uh, you know you You have a good pulse on What these mpa's?

41:37 You know that you've been involved and have to do with You know people who live around these areas live on these islands and and you know benefit from the the benefits of these uh spill effects notwithstanding not like fully understanding what You know this the the mpa for the last 10 years or the the expansion has done for fish and size and things like that and I know we talked a little bit about the social um the social implications, but how important is it to uh a lot of people who live out in those islands are indigenous how important is it for the indigenous people for these protections to happen And and to be designated you mentioned how a lot of times uh, it was to protect also indigenous culture Uh and important for indigenous people how important is it for This uh area to be closed and then what are the effects of that when it's open?

42:29 There's no no community as a monolith. Um, and the the opinions that people on islands have whether they're indigenous or non-indigenous, uh are as variable as the opinions that we have uh in toronto or in washington d.c. So it's it's uh, you can't speak to what what Do people what do all people think? Um, but when we talk about What is success? Uh, what is conservation success and are these protected areas successful? Yeah, um, I I think from the NGO perspective and protect, you know from the science perspective The definition of success for a very long time has been the area that is protected the square kilometers That get protected and so the united states adds up the number of square kilometers, but actually miles because we don't use kilometers down here Um, and they say, you know where this is our percentage and and that's what the success is um, but it can be different when you're living on the island, right, so uh For for most people it's are there fish on my a healthy ocean means there's a fish on my plate, right?

43:36 And that's that's the outcome that they want uh, but some of the stuff that I would like to see redefine success and marine conservation Is who has those jobs? So there there are so many jobs for the ocean for this this conservation world, right? So there's the scientist. Yep There's the administrator There's the person who washes, uh, or you know who sweeps the floors at university And are those jobs in washington state or are they on guam? Right? Uh, we where did that money go? Um, so there's the science there's the conservation There's the advocate world. So are people living in washington d.c? And then flying to the islands to to make these conservation decisions And how much are they getting paid or are the people on the islands having those jobs? Yeah um for the management, um are the are the managers from the islands or are they um And this is the united states, right? So within the context of the united states Um, are they or are they staffers from say new york?

44:44 And I don't like I don't think anybody that's from new york with working on the islands Who come to the islands? Um To work and some of this can be complicated Uh, because those job descriptions get written in hawaii or they get written in washington, dc Um, and you know you ask the question is it better To find a local person in that job even if they haven't taken zoology yet Uh, right because because that job description says like you have to have taken zoology. Yeah Um, and do they even still teach zoology or is it called something else in these days? um And then there's you know the fisheries benefits There's the tourism benefits. So it's actually much larger Um, and whether if you're a tourist Operator or you're an ngo or you're a government or you're a scientist There's different ways that you even even within those different silos that you that you would define success.

45:37 Um, but those We need social scientists to help us understand that. Yeah Um, and that doesn't get communicated and that doesn't get to be part of How we define conservation success? Um We also don't have the the processes that were gone through right? So yes, there was a public comment period Um, but were the borders drawn with local input or word or or did somebody in dc draw the borders? Send it to the island and say comment on this. Yeah, um, even things like To make the decision for a public comment period Uh, was that decision based on the island or was that decision based in washington dc? Yeah, um, and I don't see Okay My no, my wife is uh, her phone is ringing. I didn't hear it So so that's just one of the joys of live interviews. So you don't need to cut that. I did.

46:33 I did not have a stroke It was just my wife's phone started ringing And I didn't want to I didn't know if you could hear it. Yeah. Yeah. I heard a little bit Buff of a hide looked like a song you didn't but like from where i'm sitting It was really loud and my assumption was that nobody could hear it Um, that's what happened. It got you distracted Yeah, uh, yeah, but you know to bring it back to your to your question of You know, are people supportive of these kind of things is like the answer is complicated. Yeah Um, because it depends on what the success rate is like what there's the same kinds of interest It's our society is just as complicated Um, but then like the other thing to understand about these island societies is that there's an intimacy When you live there, um, and you know you People come from the outside. You don't get that you don't get to understand that intimacy Of i've lived here my entire life the people who were in this society were my Classmates when I was a kid. Um, we are we are tight knit Um, even if I just even if we have a fight right now That fight has to happen in a way so that next week We can talk about something else. Yeah Um, yeah, or or it's my in-law And uh a lot of sometimes the timelines that are on islands Uh, do not go they're not on the same timelines as ngo's.

47:57 Yeah, uh, okay Right, so you're the ngo their their fiscal year ends in june. So they got to spend this money by june But maybe it's election season um and Elections are incredibly important because it's actually pretty easy to make decisions and like, you know, ram things through on an island Uh, but are they going to be? there for the long term, right, um, and so This takes time. Yeah, um, i i've been I live in washington d.c But I I still talk to people back at home. I'm still plugged into the community There's other members. You know, we're an ecosystem of of advocates. We've got dz people. We've got diaspora We've got people at home, but i've been doing it for 20 years Uh, and that's that's what this conservation takes place. And so yeah, uh to bring it back to the initial discussion This moment where this yo-yo conservation that we're experiencing this back and forth of it's open to fishing It's closed to fishing In a couple of months it's going to be open to fishing Um, and then there's gonna be another lawsuit and it's going to be closed to fishing. Um Real people are dealing with this right and it's and also it's very emotional too Like a lot of our identities are tied into this Um and to have that, you know back and forth There's money involved like there's we talked about the fish being worth a thousand dollars Uh, you know those those boats they want to catch the fish.

49:21 They want to go Yeah, they want to go get those eye those those iphones out. Uh, and then and then sell them and make money Yeah, um So, you know, this is this is why we need long-term committed people living in these islands, uh who can participate in these actions over the long term and You know back to the the idea of who gets the benefits a lot of times those jobs just aren't with the people in the islands Yeah, um, they're for people in The mainland. Yeah. Yeah, which is like you said, it's very it's very complicated When we think about it and it almost requires its own own study to to to be able to kind of you know Like untie all the all the different lines that that of the benefits and the successes Um, so like, you know finishing up this this conversation Uh to wrap it up the big idea here now that is closed might open up again There's a there's definitely a need to uh to to get more data to increase We have to study the shit out of this. We have to come from we have to we have to science the shit out of this And yeah, we need fishery science We need npa science and we need social science and where do you want that to come from?

50:42 um I think the fishery scientists can come out of hawaii. Um, but but i'd love a lot of this comes down to resources Um, but I think there are people in american semoa and in the territories who could help lead this social science To help us ask the right questions and understand what's going on. How is this affecting the community? Yeah um and uh Often, you know, we're indigenous communities and oftentimes indigenous communities get studied And then the studies don't have the context or deep understanding. Yes of that that intimacy of our societies I like i've read lots of books about my own community from outsiders or studies from outsiders and it just feels off Yeah, you know like somebody says the wrong thing. Yeah, like when like when an american pretends to be canadian It's just like it's just it's just off. Yeah, um, because you just you just don't have that that cultural experience for sure of That deep knowledge and understanding of living in that island society is like Um, and we've got experts now we've got we've got kids with phds kids when I say kids I mean like people in their 30s and 40s. Yes, uh, but we we have our own experts. Um, who can help Guide this work who can do it in a way that our people will respond to it Yeah, and does this require funding for people to be able to do that and where so so is this like It's a call on like foundations who want this data. Yeah Are it's it's a little bit of some of it's like We see what we

52:12 see what the government is doing and it's in a couple years. We're going to get the government to go back Hopefully the data survives Um, but philanthropy doesn't have enough money to replace the government Um, but so we we need to offer them some nuggets of ideas of of things that they can study Things that they can fund that will deliver Some understanding of what's happening. Yeah, but but again, like I do think that this has global significance because it's it's very rare that an area of a million square kilometers That was close to fishing suddenly gets fished. Yeah, like this. It's We need that data. We need that. Yeah, it could either it could confirm everything that we've been saying for 20 years Or it could throw it out the window. This could fund probably about 17 phds Not and then that's not even including master's students like it's it's uh, uh, there's definitely an opportunity right now given given the circumstances to be able to um You know bring this together and and and you know at least learn from it Uh and see what the ramifications are going to be in the future and what the ramifications have been in the past with this 10 years of of closing off like a 50 to 200 nautical mile area around these these wonderful islands and I think that's that's a really important a really important thing to do um what's the you've mentioned it a couple times you think that it's probably going to open up again like why would it why would it open up again?

53:44 I I think the Trump administration wants to I think they want to give industry a green light and they they tried to break the law um but we called them on that and we still have judges who will stand up to lawbreakers. Yeah, um, so uh now they're they're gonna try to do it the legal way. Yeah, uh, which which is going to require a public notice a public comment period Uh, they'll probably get buried in comments. Yeah, so that'll take them weeks and months years uh to go through Um, and then they'll put something out. Um, and you know, if they if there's a misstep Somebody will sue them. Yeah, uh, they're gonna have to be very careful because people are watching People are watching people are fighting. This is unpopular. This is deeply unpopular. Yeah Um, Americans love our public lands and waters.

54:29 Yeah, and we we understand why we have protected areas Do you think there's a possibility to delay this process with the comments and everything like that and burying them under those comments where they have to address them? To the point where it gets close to the end of of this administration's time That's the hope. Yeah um, and it's uh You know the trump administration was talking about flooding the zone. Uh, steve bannon is like they're just throwing everything all at once Yeah, see what sticks so See what sticks? Um And uh, you know, we're fighting this we're fighting deep sea mining in america and samoa Um, we might be fighting openings up of other protected areas on land and on waters um all while the national guard, um is patrolling our metro stops, um, and while ice is picking up immigrants, uh It's uh, it's a lot. It's a lot going on a lot to be distracted like it's easy to be distracted by different priorities depending on Where you're from how you how you know what your family's like and and relatives and everything like that, right? It's uh, It's a we live in interesting times very interesting times. Yeah.

55:42 Yeah, so well angel. I I appreciate you coming on I know this was me go it's it's important for uh, for the both of us to get this out there I definitely agree with you that we need to science the shit out of this and hopefully get um, You know get some answers and to see you know, what's what's coming and and for everybody? Uh, you know, we'll follow this story and for all everybody's listening to the audience We'll make sure that we'll tell you when the public comment is open. Uh, and then do you do your thing? You know if you want this mpa to be uh to be an mpa and stay an mpa, you know, give us your give us the reasons and and give it to them and just Do what we can do what we can do and and uh follow the law and that's what that's what we're going to do So angel, I appreciate you coming on the podcast and um and letting us know about this Thank you. Angelo for joining us on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast It was great to have you on such an important issue that we need to talk about The fact is like no matter what we think of policies that are put in place by governments in power or the parties that are in power Of these governments science needs to happen. This is an opportunity to find out one How this monument has actually benefited if it has benefited the fish that were protected from fishing over the last 10 years and two What has this done for the fishery that's now open and how has it benefited?

56:57 socioeconomically to the people who depend on these fish to sell As angel said during the interview the people in the island communities look at it is like if there's fish out there if the ocean Is healthy then I have a fish on my plate That's how they look at the health of the ocean and so that's something that could be measured That's something that could look at if they're able to sell fish. They're able to benefit economically and socially There's a lot of things that can go in. There's a lot of collaborations that can happen You know We need money and funding to do that kind of stuff in a position where we have an opportunity to look at the science of these big Pictures and when you take away a million square miles from 1.3 million square miles of protection You know, you're looking at a big area and this is something that has been unprecedented as angela has mentioned So being able to monitor this being able to see the effects the benefits that potentially this marine protector has provided And seeing how that would do opening it up to the fishery or even if it's over the last three or four months And maybe even later on that's something that we need to measure That's something that we need to find out what the benefits are so that we can show the benefits of that if there are benefits So we're going to find out hopefully through science But when the public comment period comes out for opening up the marine sanctuary again We'll definitely let you know We'll be following this story because we are going to need everybody to mention why it's so important to keep this close So that's going to be something that's very important And I hope that you can help us with that if you have any questions or comments on this episode or this topic Please put them in the comments below if you're watching this on youtube Or you can get a hold of me by going to instagram dmme

58:28 Go to act how to protect the ocean or you can go to speak up for blue.com forward slash contact and you can contact me It goes right to my personal email I'd love to hear from you about this subject and what you think of it all politics aside Like I get that it's a tough time in the us Let's look at the fact that science can help understand what's happened in the benefits or non-benefits of a marine protected area in this area And especially opening up to the fisheries. Will it benefit? How long will it benefit? What could be the consequences of opening this up too quickly or opening up at all? So that's what I want to really focus on I want to kind of keep the politics aside to be honest because I just think people are just going to get distracted You know, it's a tough time in the us. It's a tough time worldwide But this is something that we need to do as scientists We need to science the hell out of this and that's something that's really important So I want to thank you for listening to this episode of how to protect the ocean podcast I want to thank angela for coming on and bringing this to our attention and thank you for listening This is something that is really important to me to get you know ocean literacy out there and to make sure that we understand What's happening in the ocean and understanding the complexities that happen as angela highlighted But I want to thank you again for listening This has been another exciting episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast I'm your host angela and from the true north strong and free.

59:40 Have a great day We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation