Ocean Ramsay's Shark Whisperer, A Review of the Conservation Claims and Controversies

1:00:00 The Shark Whisperer is out. I watched it on Netflix. It's documentary about Ocean Ramsay and her work about interacting with sharks. Very controversial in the science and ocean conservation world. Although she captures the attention of many people. Of course, why wouldn't you when you ride a great white shark in the water? This is gonna be an interesting review of this. I already recorded an episode, it was 40 minutes long. I'm gonna try and make this less. So let's start the show. (upbeat music) Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host Andrew Lewin. And this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean. How you could speak up for the ocean. What you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.

1:00:40 If action is what you want to take before we get into the Shark Whisperer and Ocean Ramsay and all that. If you want to take real action, you want to know how to protect the ocean. Join the undertow to join this online community that I'm creating with two other co-founders. These amazing women who are out there trying to do best. We are trying to help guide you to choose better ways to protect the ocean. If you don't know, you can learn about the ocean in this community. You can learn about how to protect the ocean better in this community. Just go to speakupforblue.com forward slash join the undertow. That's speakupforblue.com forward slash join the undertow to join the undertow and do better at conservation.

1:01:21 So that's what I want you to do right before we start this. Now let's get into it. Okay, I recorded this episode before and it was 40 minutes long. Did not want to do that to you. I know attention spans are short. We have lots to do. I want you to take this episode for what it's worth. It is a documentary about a woman who interacts with sharks in a bad way. I'm going to tell you that's a bad way. She doesn't mean to do in a bad way, but it's a bad way. She harasses sharks. It's what she does and it's shown on video. I don't mean to degrade her in any way. I don't mean to be mean to her in any way, but it's what she does. And so this has been a topic of a lot of controversy within the ocean science and an ocean conservation world.

1:02:02 A lot of people have spoken out about the work that she does. But the thing is that it captures a lot of attention. They take amazing photos of her interacting with these sharks touching the sharks pushing them away interacting with these sharks and she puts out some misinformation. So we're going to get into the documentary what it's about and what are the problems I have with it really in terms of it and then some of the things that I think we need to learn as ocean conservationists and scientists to say, hey, we need to start capturing the attention of people and we need to figure out ways to do it. That is in a good way and also some advice for Netflix and who to actually cover. So we're going to talk about that all today. So let's get into it. The movie is about Ocean Ramsey. Ocean Ramsey claims to be a scientist claims to be a researcher claims to be a shark whisperer.

1:02:45 Although she says she's not a shark whisperer in the movie, but the movie says, you know, title is shark whisperer. But essentially what she's done is she's created this company where she goes out and she teaches people how to interact with sharks. She wants to show that sharks are gentle. She wants to show that sharks are not monsters as some movies like Jaws may have represented in the past and some people have represented people are afraid of sharks. That is not a doubt. Everybody there are a lot of people who are afraid of sharks. People know that everybody knows that it's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. They are predators. They have big teeth. They have bitten people before. It doesn't happen as often as we think, but it happens. And when you go in the water, all you think of is Jaws or all you think of are these different types of movies about sharks eating people or hurting people and it happens in real life at times.

1:03:28 And unfortunately, you know, they get a bad rap because of it. So people are afraid of sharks. That fear of sharks has led to the killing of sharks, whether it's for fishing or for tournaments or for anything else. And sometimes, you know, people get mad at that. And sometimes people are like, well, we need to change the reputation of sharks. Those people go out and do it in different ways. Some people will swim with sharks, not touch them and do what, you know, Patty says and what all the scuba diving outfits say and say when you're in the water, you just look, you don't touch. That's pretty much what the mantra is when you're in the water, what you should be doing, whether you're a scientist or not, unless you're actually doing work up on the animal. You do not touch if you don't need to. Ocean Ramsey touches. She has this connection, she says in this movie, and that's what allows her to interact with these animals.

1:04:13 Now, here's the thing. She anthropomorphizes these animals. Basically, what she's doing, what that means is she's attributing human characteristics to animals where those human characteristics are probably not true. She says she has this connection with the animals. She knows the animals and they all have different characteristics, like they all have their character. They all act in different ways. Each individual shark, whether it's a tiger shark, whether it's an ocean white tip, each individual shark of that population of that area will display different types of characteristics. That's not in doubt here. It's whether they're being friendly or whether they're coming to say hello or whether they're doing things. These are animals. These are predators. They're coming to check you out. If a shark approaches you, it's checking you out to say, one, are you food? And two, are you dangerous to me?

1:04:56 If you're dangerous to me, I'm going to get out. If you're food, I'm going to come check you out even more. And so you see a lot of times in the film, you see, you know, a tiger shark coming up to Ocean Ramsey. She puts her hand out. She says, I'm only waiting until they come to me. Although there's other shots in the video where she's actually touching their fins and things like that. And there's a shot where a great white came by what everybody thought was deep blue. Apparently it's not deep blue. The name of the shark was a 20 foot great white shark. It's huge. And that's what made her popular. She rode this thing. She held onto its fin and rode it basically swimming within. Let it kind of drag her around in a very peaceful way. And it went viral. And she claims a lot of things from that. But, you know, that's what happens. She rides them. She holds onto their fins. She essentially harasses them. You should never touch a shark. You never know what you're going to do that shark.

1:05:40 You never know what's on your hands. You never know what's on the sharks, you know, skin. There's a lot of dangers that can happen. And plus you don't want to piss off a shark. Now, she has gone diving with sharks for a long time. She probably has thousands and thousands of hours with sharks in this atmosphere. But the problem is, is that you never know when a shark is going to turn on you. For example, there is a shark that's in the film where she says she has to watch her at all times. Because this shark will come up. And normally when she pushes them away, a tiger shark will actually take a long route and come back around and then come visit her again by checking her out to see if she's actually food. But this one will come back and turn back around quick and she has to be careful of that. This is the thing where I'm saying it's not games these sharks are playing.

1:06:21 These sharks are out there to survive. They're out there either to protect themselves or to eat. That's what they do. That's the animal kingdom. That's what happens. Mother Nature is cruel. These animals have to be just as cruel and that's how it works. Right. So this is what we're dealing with from a perspective. However, the movie makes it sound like she's just this shark whisperer. She has this ability to connect with sharks and the sharks connect with her and it feels just so spiritual and it feels just great. It's all BS, but it's easy to fall for it. It is. And when I watched it, I was like, oh wow, like she really does a good job with all of these sharks and things like that. You fall for it. It's really easy to fall for because it's a beautiful depiction of how animals and humans can interact. And I do believe that she has, you know, a want to protect these sharks. She sees these sharks every day when you start to grow a or not every day, but most of the days when every time she's out there, she sees the same sharks come back. You know, there was one shark that had a crack jaw or broken jaw and it's sad.

1:07:17 Then it had a fish hook in it and there's a lot of things that were going on. The problem is, is she's still harassing sharks. She teaches other people that you can harass sharks and get away with it and you can't. You just don't want to do that because yes, she has thousands and thousands of hours in the water with sharks. But other people who don't are going to try this. Not everybody because a lot of us are like, I'm not getting in the water with sharks without a cage or even just getting the water with sharks anyway. But there are people who will and there are people who will try this tactic, whether it's a great white, whether it's a tiger shark, whether it's a Mako shark, any shark. They will do that and they will get hurt because of it. And that is dangerous because what does that do? Not only to the person hurt the person, but it could also hurt the reputation of sharks. And that is what we don't want. We've taken a lot of time. There's a lot of people who have taken a lot of time to make sure that these sharks have better reputation, that they're known as being these formidable animals and predators, apex predators, but they need to be protected and that they're not always after humans.

1:08:11 There have been plenty of studies to show that. Dr. Chris Lowe out of the University of California, Long Beach lab, the shark lab, and it shows it every day. So that's something that's really important to look at. Look at the science. Don't just look at people who are just touching sharks and getting away with it because I'll tell you at some point she's going to get hurt. She even says that it could happen and that she's okay with it. I'm not okay with somebody getting hurt. People watching it or filming it. And also, you know, that reputation of sharks going downhill. Let's be honest. The crocodile hunter had the same kind of thing. Got killed by a stingray. An accident and you know he doesn't want anything happened to stingrays, but people are afraid of stingrays because it hit the crocodile hunter that it could hit anybody if people are afraid, but not going to want to protect and we need all hands on deck to protect. That's what we need. Okay, enough on that. I got a lot of other stuff to go through. So I'm going to go through that and I'm already at like 13 minutes. So I've got like a couple minutes to try and keep everything down to a good thing. So hopefully my editor will be able to edit this down so that you can go and get a good timing and get back on to your own.

1:09:10 Okay, let's talk about the conservation efforts. The one story that really captured my attention was the conservation effort that she talks about a banning sharks in Hawaii, the banning of shark fishing in Hawaii. Now she talks a lot about conservation efforts about, you know, finning. She talks about banning finning and how, you know, 100 million sharks die every day. We know the deaths of sharks from finning is going down since it was first reported. But there are other ways that sharks die. A lot is overfishing and unsustainable. Fishing practices and not, you know, watching them out in the high seas and so forth. There's a lot of stuff that is killing sharks and still a lot of sharks die each and every day shark fishing can be a problem. There are ways that, you know, sustainable shark fishing can happen. But what she refers to one thing before we get into the story of how she protected or how she helped get shark fishing banned in Hawaii was the fact that she talked about fitting and she talked about finning.

1:10:04 She has B roll of her walking around what seemed to be in an Asian fishing market She sees sharks these dead sharks and fins being cut off of these dead sharks Now that is technically not finning that is taking the fins off of a dead shark That is actually very legal in a lot of places not illegal legal in a lot of places If you land the shark, that means you bring it back dead you fish the shark You're gonna sell it for its meat. You can also sell the fins because you want to use up the entire body That's a sustainable practice and use of a shark is if you're gonna fish it and if you don't agree with it That's fine. But if you're gonna fish it you should eat all of it So taking the fins make sense in that perspective the act of finning is to go out into the ocean Right middle the ocean or wherever you are on the coast wherever and actually catch a shark keep it alive Cut the fins off the shark while it's alive and then throw the shark back while it's still alive without its fins For it to essentially just die a very very painful death. That is cruel That is awful. And I know some of you will argue that Hey, you know what killing a shark just for fishing and different meat is cruel in itself. I understand that that is legal in a lot of places What's illegal is the act of finning which I just described?

1:11:13 There's meaning in the different words and she misrepresents what finning is in this film She's done that before and that matters to a lot of ocean conservationists to a lot of scientists and it should matter to you Because that's actually legal That's actually using the shark when you land it and cut the fins off to use it for shark fins That's actually a sustainable way because you want to use all of the animal, right? That's a very good way of making sure that we're sustainable if we are going to fish For a particular species a shark a different type of fish, whatever that is You want to use all of it so that makes it worthwhile, right? That's a very big act when you eat animals is to use all of its parts So that's one of the things that you know, and you may not agree and that's fine But that's one of the things that I had a particularly caught my eye and be like well, hold on a second That's not actually finning now with her banning of shark fishing within Hawaii Admirable act she'd played a role in it. She partnered up with some other organization There was an organization and a people called Hanaka and it was led by this whole movement was led by Hanaka And I've got a video to document someone telling you that it was Mackenzie who's on tick-tock who's been on this podcast before She's great. She's a scientist She's a very great ocean conservationist and she's a great science communicator And she is from the island of Hawaii in Oahu and she knows a lot about that And she talks a little bit more than I know about her So I'll let her talk about that aspect, but this was a Hanaka led I guess conservation movement and it worked now she coupled into it She came into the team as a team and she

1:12:44 used her following to get public support She also goes around to schools and other places and communities and teaches about sharks and what her work does So that's great. That's admirable. And she was part of that team This film this documentary makes it look like she led the whole thing in the film She said that she didn't get it the building get passed in 2016 nor in 2017 nor in 2018 It wasn't until 2019 after the video came out of her swimming with the great white shark That's what she says. She attributes the fact that hey, you know what? That's what kind of put it over the hump and got it passed because there wasn't much opposition of that because if you swim With a great white and you're not getting eaten then sharks can't be that bad. We shouldn't be fishing for sharks That's what she claims in the film essentially But the thing is is when you try and get policy passed it doesn't always happen at the beginning Right doesn't always happen the first year the second year the third year Sometimes doesn't happen for 10 years the Ross Sea Marine protected area in Antarctica Took over 10 years to get accepted by 24 nations that manage Antarctica It finally got accepted because you know the science gets better the public support gets better And there's a lot of pressure on all those countries from their own people and internationally

1:14:16 To have these marine protected areas designated now There are of course other and repre And that's what makes it so frustrating with conservation It just takes so much time and a lot of these animals are dying in the meantime But I'm sure her followers and her public support in the gathering of public support and her persona herself helped get this passed But the fact is the movie whether she means it or not is taking credit for it Puts a bad taste in everybody's mouth because ocean conservation is about collaboration It's about working together as a team There are people that I know who have done amazing things in ocean conservation helped get marine protected areas designated helped get certain CITES regulations designated Do they take credit for it or do they let other people say hey this person did this?

1:14:58 No, they will be the first to say no actually I worked with this organization and this organization did this part in this process And everybody gives credit to everybody doesn't happen all the time But when it happens that's when you know the true collaboration is in effect That's when you know that this person is admirable this person Deserves to be in this area because they just want to get the stuff passed and protected and not take credit for it even though Credits do to them right, but now they don't want to take all the credit They want to say hey, you know what other people, you know help get this passed So that is a big problem and I know maybe that you're listening to this and you're a supporter of ocean rams And you see well, you know what she's helped anyway, so isn't that great? It is great But to take credit for it in this film or what seems to be taking credit for this she led this Really puts a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths that have worked so hard to put it through now with that said I Haven't come across anybody speaking out against it in that thing That doesn't mean that anybody hasn't but I haven't seen any reports or any articles where people are speaking out against it and that's fine Maybe they did maybe they didn't what I see is one person taking credit that leading this I know differently and that puts a sour taste in my mouth with this I wouldn't work with somebody like that because of it, right?

1:16:12 Whether she has two million followers or two followers that puts a sour taste in my mouth So I think that's thing is it's transparency. It's like hey, you know what? We got this pass was great, but it was a team effort that didn't show off in the movie It looked like she led that speaking of transparency ocean ramsi's education now Look, you don't have to be a scientist to do this type of work, you know You don't have to be a scientist you can be an advocate you can be an activist You can be someone who works in policy and gets into these types of situation gets public support and do really great work for ocean conservation But ocean ramsi has claimed that she is a scientist However, there's something very different about her claims compared to what she's proven or what she's shown of where she's gone to school And how she got her credentials She may have schooling and she may have credentials and she may choose not to post it on a website But she is the first scientist that I have ever met who has not posted their credentials or talked about their credentials And that is a little weird to me. I'll be honest and it's not against it if she has it that's fine But it's causing a lot of controversy within the scientific community ocean conservation committees Like she says she's a scientist She says she practices science and you can collect data for a lot of different researchers and stuff that happens all the time And you're not a scientist, but she claims she's a scientist, but she doesn't talk about being a scientist She doesn't they not proudly display it on her website or anything like that And I feel like that's a little odd, you know You want to be transparent you say you should be proud if she did the work It's hard work and she should be proud of what she's done, but don't claim it and not show it I think that's a little weird. It's not like the end all be all but it's a little

1:17:44 odd that she's not claiming it There are people who said that she's gone to San Diego State University. She's got a marine biology degree She got a degree in a master's in animal behavior. I haven't seen it on her website I haven't seen her cut that and actually say it she's very mysterious in that kind of way She doesn't talk about herself a lot within that respect She only talks about herself within like saving sharks as well as interacting with these sharks So that's a little odd to me. Like I said, I'm very proud of that. I have an undergraduate degree I have a master's degree. I work very hard for it It was not easy talk to anybody who's done a graduate degree. It is sucks. It's hard. It is very difficult So if you have it flaunt it and you don't have to like I said, it's not the end all be all but it's a little odd to Me that she's not proudly displaying it or proudly talking about it as she should be because it is a very difficult thing to get It's not easy to get so that's a big thing I want to talk about going back to the interaction when you have cage free dives and you have cage dives a lot of times You know, you have to attract the sharks people attract the sharks using chumming or sometimes they use hand feeding Which is kind of crazy when you think about feeding sharks But a lot of people do it and that's how they attract the sharks chumming and hand feeding Ocean Ramsey says she doesn't do it And there's no physical evidence that says she does it at this point that I could see However, there have been people and I'll link to the video below who have said that she does chum water that they know people who say That she chums with the water to attract those sharks. She says she doesn't There have been apparently videos shows that there's chum in the water that have been taken down from social media posts

1:19:15 Nobody that has worked for her is allowed to talk about it because they've all signed NDAs and they refuse to talk about it because they can't because they legally can't Again, the mystery around it whether it's true or not. I don't know the mystery around it She says she doesn't do it But there's you know, some people say she does and there's been some photos that have been shown online of some, you know Sometimes she's been hand feeding and she's taking those down whether that's just a once in a lifetime thing or I don't know Sometimes you can learn from that, but she says she's never done it She doesn't do it. And so that's a little weird to me again. It comes down to the transparency of the thing So I think that's difficult now. Let's talk about the fact that she's an influencer She's a big influencer within the ocean space She has over 2 million followers on Instagram and other places and a lot of people love what she does people have watched this movie and they Love what she does. They think she is amazing. That's great. They don't know it's very difficult to know She doesn't talk about a lot of the controversies. She lets it ride She talks about the controversies in the film But it doesn't make it look like that big of a deal There looks like there's some researchers who are on the film who don't agree with what she does and they talk about that So it kind of like when I watch I was like, oh, she's actually, you know facing it head-on She's talking about it. She just ignores it and she just does what she does But there's still like something weird about it It just didn't sit right with me But she does have a lot of followers and those followers have gone after other researchers and ocean scientists and ocean conservation Who have spoken out and criticized her for what she does that is obviously not good now I don't know if she says to go out and do it But the fact is I feel as an influencer you have that responsibility to kind of

1:20:46 go online is like hey people if people criticize me That's fine as part of the job Please don't go after and you know threaten their lives or this and that and blah blah blah which has happened And so, you know when you have a following like that and people love you They defend you but it can get aggressive it can get scary and that's not good with that Said having a following is a really great thing for conservation, right? You saw it as an example in the film She talks about you know, basically inspire her followers to support this movement to ban shark fishing within Hawaii Is it huge was gonna save sharks around the world? No, but it's gonna save sharks in Hawaii for sure But you know, it's great to have that it's great to have that Unfortunately, it's with probably the wrong person that can do it for conservation because she often provides misinformation Like I said with the finning she interacts with sharks, which is not good She teaches people that you can't interact with sharks You should interact with sharks and that can be very dangerous for the sharks as well as for the people, you know There's a lot of controversy here. So why is it?

1:21:45 I always wonder, you know, like why is it that a lot of people who have followings? Tend to do some like controversial things and maybe that's why they have followings. Maybe that's why Netflix is like Hey, let's do a documentary on this person because it's gonna drum up some controversy just like sea-spiracy did It's gonna drum up some support because they have a big following and we'll get a lot of views and that's really what it comes out So they want to make money. They want people to come to Netflix and they want to watch it I would just like to see other people get the spotlight People who have done great work people who are great people People who want to work with others and collaborate and do conservation the right way and should get the spotlight in front of an audience That has a Netflix type of audience, you know what I would like to see I like to see dr Asha Davos who's a marine mammologist out of Sri Lanka who discovered the only population that I think we know that to this day I don't know if that's true But the only blue whale population that doesn't migrate north or south and stays within the Sri Lankan waters and worked with the government as a woman in Sri Lanka worked with the government of Sri Lanka to Reroute one of the largest ports in the Indian Ocean so that they didn't harm blue whales and other whales in the area Like think about what that does a woman in Sri Lanka one woman Sri Lanka used her ability to do science and conservation and her speaking ability and her ability to inspire people to get a government who probably doesn't really treat women the best to change and reroute the shipping lanes of a port of one of the largest ports if

1:23:15 not the largest port in in the Indian Ocean and She speaks all over the world to inspire people all over the world put a show on her do an entire documentary on her She's amazing. She's a good friend of mine. So I'm biased. She's amazing. Well, how would you just do that? Dr. Asher Davos look her up watch what she does. She does live streaming a lot of times with her marine mammal G Surveys and so forth. She talks about whale poop, which is fluorescent orange. It's amazing You got to do a documentary on Netflix about her or a good friend of mine Angelo Villa Gomez do a documentary on him That guy is an amazing guy. He's like a brother to me. He is so much fun to talk to he is so interesting He's got an interesting history, right? He stands up for people He does conservation work and he gives people credit for what they do and takes away credit from him Even though he deserves most of the credit or a lot of the credit, but he won't do it himself He's very humble that way do these documentaries. That's what I want to see I want to see people who have done great work in the ocean conservation have a great story It's time that we start elevating people who can really command and inspire an audience But they need to get in front of that audience These are the people that these documentaries need to be made. I would love to make them myself I don't have the ability to do so, but these are the people that I would choose These are just two of the people that I would choose. There are so many more now with that said I can't wait for another Netflix especially comes out as I'm recording this it comes up tomorrow There is a woman in there that I've had on the podcast. She's amazing I'm not gonna talk about too much of her right now. She's on this new shark You know, it looks like a reality show from what I see and they're taking

1:24:46 pictures and they're trying to get pictures of as many Different shark species as possible. It looks great. She's a scientist. She just graduated from master's degree. She's a science communicator She's underwater photographer She's amazing and I can't wait to watch that and I can't wait to review that and have her on the podcast to promote That these are the people that we should be, you know focusing on These are the people that we need to elevate and I can't wait and the other people who are on the show with her I can't wait to get to know them These are some of the great things that we should do and I want people to watch the show to really say Hey, we need to support shows like this on Netflix and not support too much of shows like we see in Ocean Ramses taking credit Spreading misinformation talking about wildlife harassment. It's not great, right showing why life rasa. It's not great. This is my episode This is my review. I would love to hear your thoughts whether you'd like it or not. No judgment here I want to hear from you Let me know in the comments below on YouTube and of course if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app You can get a hold of me go to speakupforblue.com contact fill out the form goes right to my email or you can DM me on Instagram at how to protect the ocean I want to Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. Have a great day I'm your host Andrew Lewin from the true north strong and free. Have a great day We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation