Ocean Books and Solarpunk Stories: Todd Medema’s Climate Heist Novel to Inspire Action

0:00 When somebody's talking to you about climate change, how do you feel? Do you feel like this kind of like eerie feeling inside this anxiousness, this bad feeling about what's gonna happen in the future, thinking about the future, whether you should have kids, a family, how are we gonna survive this when you know, politicians are not really working on this business, people aren't really working on this, or some people are, some people aren't. Some people are doing the opposite. It must feel pretty crappy after a while, but imagine if you read something or watched something or did anything. And it actually made you feel optimistic about climate change, especially about climate change adaptation. Imagine, just imagine if you read a book that gave you hope on climate change. Well, that's what we're gonna be talking about on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

0:43 I've got author, new author, Todd Maima on the podcast today. He's talking about his new book called How to Surf a Hurricane. Just imagine the thought of that Surfing a hurricane, how to surf a hurricane. It is this. Fictional book about, you know, like kind of a bit of a sci-fi book about someone who, it's a heist, it's in a solar punk, novel type of genre. It's kind of cool and it's out for presale right now, so I want you to go out and get it. But we're gonna hear from Todd about the book, the process of writing a book, especially looking at something that's not often the narrative that we hear, especially when it comes to climate change. So here we go. Let's start the show.

1:23 Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. Today we're gonna be talking about a book called How to Surf A Hurricane by Todd Maima. This is his first time writing a book. Well, first time going through a publisher. He wrote a book, a novel in high school, but this one is really special. It's really about. How to look at climate change in a very different way, an optimistic way. A lot of us don't really think about that when we hear about climate change. A lot of doom and gloom associated with it. You know, sea level rise. You have sea surface temperature increases, ocean acidification, coral bleaching, flooding, droughts, wildfires, all that stuff makes it really difficult to think about climate change in a positive way or to think about life in the future.

2:14 With climate change in a positive way, a lot of us get anxious about it. A lot of us, you know, just feel really crappy. It kind of turns our stomach a little bit, especially when you see how people are dealing with it, how politicized it's, but we don't often hear about in our regular lives or in our fictional books, or on a podcast or on a video where things are gonna be fine, things that might actually turn out to be okay if we take it seriously, if we take actions. You know this book that Todd wrote is going to give you that optimism is going to say, you know what? I think we'll be okay as long as we take action. And the book isn't gonna inspire you to take action. In fact, you can go to the link below in the show notes or in the comments below.

2:55 If you're watching this on YouTube, you can go and you can say, Hey, you know what? Like, here's a link to how to protect the ocean. Todd's got all these resources for you and strategies and tips on how you can get started protecting the ocean. I think this is where books need to go. I think this is how resources need are built. They inspire and then they lead you and guide you towards actions. What we're trying to build for a long time in a project, which I've probably already announced by now, but it's going to be amazing and you can take part. So this is a great interview. Todd's an amazing human being. He's already in the clean energy industry. He always wants to do something for climate change, like to reduce climate change, to help the planet, telling you to spend time for yourself in nature, and that's how we learn and get inspired to protect.

3:37 This book is gonna help you do that. I can't wait for you to hear the interview. So here's the interview with Todd Maima talking about his book, how to Surf a Hurricane. Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after. Hey Todd, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about climate and the ocean? Hey, Andrew. I am. Thanks for having me. Love it. I love it. This is gonna be a lot of fun because we're gonna be talking, you know, about climate change in the ocean, but in a little different way. A lot of times when we talk about climate change, it's the doom and gloom. It sucks. It's no fun. You know, we get climate anxiety, we get overwhelm, and there's, we gotta find a, a different way to be able to discuss this. And, and Todd, when you reached out to me to be like, Hey, look, I wrote a book, uh, you know, in a, in a sort of a fictional character way, but talking about climate change.

4:21 Talking about oceans in a much different way than the way we normally talk about it in society. And I want to discuss it on the podcast. And I was like, you know what? This is a perfect way to talk about different ways to discuss, you know, climate change. Just think about climate change. So I was like, yes, let's do it. We booked it, we're here, we're ready to talk about it. And I can't wait to do that. But Todd, before we do that, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do. Yeah, so I'm Todd Mamma. For the past several years, I've worked directly in clean energy, uh, on solar and good energy storage. But really outside of that, uh, I've become extremely passionate about climate change and, and how we tackle this.

5:01 And I've tried to explore it and tackle it from many different lenses, not just from the technology side, but from the political side. I've like volunteered resistance climate lobby. I've liaised with senators from. Like the local volunteering side, running green groups, you know, even from the personal lifestyle side, you know? Mm-hmm. Lived car free cut meat outta my diet and just really trying to understand what is this problem, what are our solutions and how do we get there? Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's the, that's the question, right? That's the big, those are the big questions that we, that we, we'd been trying to solve for quite some time growing up in, in this type of world. You know, and, and hearing climate change, it's, it's been often discussed in terms of climate denial and everything.

5:46 So as like as you grew up getting into the clean energy industry, how did, like, why did you follow that path? Like, you know, growing up probably a lot of people, even maybe parents or aunts and uncles or like in your family or even friends and, and their parents and stuff. They may have talked in, in, in a different way of climate change, like it's not existing or, you know, there's a lot of controversy around it politically, it comes into play. Like what, how did you like get steered into clean energy industry? Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a great question. 'cause my family background is more the red state life. Right, okay. Questions about climate change. But I think what it really comes down to is, as a kid, I spent a lot of time in nature.

6:29 I was a boy scout, we were hiking, camping, kayaking, you name it. And so I just really came to appreciate nature. Yeah. And as you know, as I was exposed more and more to like, Hey, we're doing these things that are destroying nature, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. No. Like I want, I want nature to be here, not just for me, but like. For, for my friends, my family, my kids. Yeah. You know, I want to preserve this. Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's what we all want, right? It really comes down to just, just being in nature and, and spending time in, in nature. Um, and so you follow, you follow a path of clean energy. So how did you, like, what was your role? Like what, what did you do in that industry? Like what was your title?

7:09 Yeah, so my title is a software product manager. Okay. So I help these clean energy companies. Develop software that helps them operate more efficiently, helps them design Oh, cool. You Solar power plants that are cheaper for their customers and just trying to drive down the cost of, of clean energy. That's interesting because that was a big problem when it first came out, right? Solar panels are too expensive. Like, you know, we put on homes, it's almost like I, I'll never forget, like I've grown up in a, in a very, uh, like in a, in a very, like a time where technology increased immensely, you know, from getting up on the, you know, from getting up from the couch to have to turn the channel on the TV to having like massive remotes that are like, you know. A foot long with like 30 buttons to, to, you know, demarcate the channels and stuff like that.

7:53 Then to go into like massive TVs where the backs were like deep and then you get to flat screen TVs when they were super, and all these new technologies were super expensive when they first came out, and I remember. Uh, vividly when plasma TVs and flat TVs became super cheap, it was, it almost felt like it was overnight. It was like when they figured out how to make them properly, like, and, and efficiently, right? Where they can mass produce them, where they're not $2,000. Every time they come out, the, the, and, and like, if you look at them now, you can get like a 42 inch TV for what? Like $300? $400 and great. That's crazy quality. Yeah. It's insane. Right? I feel like that, like the solar panels industry went through the same thing.

8:34 Like we had solar, we had friends on the, on the block that had solar panels back in the eighties, and they were huge. They were ugly. Now it's almost to the point, you know, where, where certain companies have them as like tiles on your, like a like. Know on your, on your roof. Yeah. So they, it just like, looks seamless, you know? Uh, so there's a lot of, there's been a, a huge sort of change and shift in, in making them, and, and we don't really realize that software is a big part of that into how to make those, it's all computerized. How to make it more, uh, efficiently. Was that a hard thing to do? Like, is that a hard thing to get into in terms of a software engineer or software programmer? Um.

9:15 You know, I'm gonna say it wasn't too hard for me because it's something that I've always enjoyed. Yeah. Yeah. I actually got into it from video games. Uh, okay. Yeah. When I was a kid, I loved playing video games. And then my best friend in elementary school actually was like, Hey, did you know you could program your own video games? Nice. And like what? So I just like taught myself how to make, honestly, they were quite terrible games, you know? Course I didn't know how games at that point, but like, you know, um. And sometimes I get people asking like, oh, it's the tech industry. Like, you know, I'm not a software engineer, there's nothing I can do to help. Yeah. But like there's. So many different angles that we're tackling this problem from.

9:57 Mm-hmm. And really what I've seen is like every skill set is useful. Yes. Like if you love talking with people, if you love doing detail work, you know, if you love like being out in nature, like there are people who go out and like install these solar panels. So like if you don't want to desk job, you can help the clean energy revolution in nature. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's, it's, it's a problem that needs to be solved by everybody and every skillset. Right? And I think it's just a matter of literally plugging into the problem and the solutions and understanding how to get there and how your skillset can, can go. It's really interesting 'cause I have a lot of people who come in, it's like, I wanna protect the ocean. I gotta become a marine biologist. I'm like, no, please don't.

10:38 We have so many, there are so many up and coming marine biologists, like, please, like, what's your skillset? Oh, you know, I'm in business or I'm a banker, or I'm this, I'm like. Use it, use that stress, like that skillset, use that experience to like, let's look at funding models. Let's look at, you know, ways to program software, ways to program, you know, ways to make better and more efficient, like make solar panels better and more efficient. Like, you know, there's so many different ways. I interviewed someone exactly who's putting like solar panels on boats. Like, there's like a, like they put 'em in on sailboats and stuff and like. Into the boat and you're just like, this is amazing. Like to even come up with that idea, you need problem solvers, right? And that could become in any kind of format. Obviously, you know, developers and software engineers like you guys are really good at that because you're, you know, that's, that's the skillset that you bring, the value that you bring.

11:23 But there are other people who, like business people who are like skillset. They have skill sets that are problem solvers, and they just do it in different ways. And I think we need that. And you have done it in a lot of different ways, which we're gonna talk about in a, in a minute. But it's really cool to see that. So as you're in this, this, you know, the, the, the clean energy industry, you're doing these software, uh, models and you're, and you're, and you're coming up with these programs. Where do you go from there? Like, okay, this is like, how come you just didn't be like, this is my thing. Like this is great, I'm gonna just continue this. Or did you find like something else that interested you as you were growing through that industry? Yeah, I mean, I, I love doing multiple things. I have a hard time sitting still.

12:04 Gotcha. So I, you know, I'm still in clean energy doing this software, product management. Yeah. Um, and. On top of that, I've always asked myself like, what are, what are ways that we can move the needle on this? And actually the, the reason I started writing this book about two years ago was this, uh, someone shared a stat with me that humans are like, I don't know, something crazy, like 30 times more likely to remember a story than a piece, like a statistic. Hmm. Yeah. Because like we are such story-driven Yes. Creatures. Yeah. So, you know, I really got to thinking like, are we communicating about climate change wrong?

12:46 Is that, are we shooting ourselves in the foot? 'cause we're just like, numbers, numbers, numbers. Yeah. And everyone's like, I, what do these numbers even mean? Um, and I don't know, like the same day. It was kind of one of those, you know, funny coincidence, someone else sent me this idea of like, in climate we have these three story archetypes. Either the tech billionaire genius will save us all. Future generation, the kids will save us all. Mm-hmm. Or the future is gonna be a unrelenting hellscape that we deserved. And like, you know what? You're totally right. I see one of those three archetypes and basically every story and yes, we need something else. Yes.

13:26 Oh my gosh, it's so true. But there is another one. I feel like there's the science I told you, so you get that a lot in like apocalyptic movies, right? Where you have like the geologist or the marine biologist who's just like I told you, you shouldn't have messed with that. And then No, nobody, everybody ignores that person and then all hell breaks loose and they have to help, they have to help solve it. Yeah. That's, that's kind of that third one of like, you know, we, we were warned and like, the future's gonna suck. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, in some ways it makes sense. Like, you know, listen to your elders, listen to your scientists, like they're telling you. Yeah, for sure. You know. But I think also, like one of the things that's really missing is like, if you're not a tech billionaire, if you're not like a teenager.

14:10 There, there's no other stories about like how you as just like an ordinary So true. More like middle aged person help contribute in your lifetime. Mm-hmm. You know, like so many of these, even, so many of these stories take place in the far future. And I'm like, well, what about the next like 20, 30, 40 years? Like, there's so little covering that. I, I agree. I also think too, as you were mentioning that I'm, I'm thinking like, you know, we expect these heroes to come out and solve those problems, whether it be a tech billionaire, whether it be a teenager, and we've seen some of those come out and they get destroyed. You know what I mean? Like, people will go after a 16-year-old girl or a number of 16-year-old girls and just tear her to pieces because.

14:54 They don't think she can, they, they don't think that she can do anything. Or like you have a tech billionaire who tries to come out with somebody who's like, oh no, all these conspiracy theories come out. Like they're trying to control the weather. They're doing this, they're doing that. And, and they, and then in a way, people look at that from the outside. It's like, well, I can't, I don't wanna be in that position. Like, I can't do anything. Yeah. Because then I'm gonna be called out for anything, you know, anything I say is gonna be called out and, and I don't want to be treated that way. And so it almost like. Propels you from doing it a little bit and just being like, no, I'm just gonna stick, stick in my thing. I'm gonna, you know, grab my, my plastic drink like, or my drink that's in a plastic, you know? Mm-hmm. You know, single use container.

15:35 I'm just gonna continue on my way, you know what I mean? And I, and then, so it kind of suppresses us a little bit from doing it. 'cause we're like, oh no, I can't, that's gonna destroy my career, destroy my life. I don't want to, I don't wanna do that. Right. There's, there's a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's where like the third part of this puzzle came in, that like. When it really clicked, like, okay, I'm gonna write a book. Yeah. For a while it's kinda like, oh, I'll just, you know, like try writing some short stories, but like, okay, I'm gonna write a book. I discovered this genre called solar punk. Have you heard of it? Solar Punk. Solar Punk, okay. No, I've never heard of that. Okay. I, it's a pretty new budding genre, so, okay. You know, it's, it is, it's not like it's classically defined 'cause people are still figuring out what it means.

16:15 Yeah. But it's, it's kind of the opposite of cyberpunk. Okay. Like cyberpunk is. Dystopian future with like technology ruining everything. Okay. Solar punk, in my mind is a hopeful future where we as humans, as individuals and communities work with nature to build a better future. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, ah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and that tracks, I mean, you look at any conservation project that's succeeded. It's done as a community. It's done with the community. It's done in like in collaboration with that. It's not just done by one person who's like trying to hog all the attention. It's done as a community. So that, that makes sense.

16:56 As, as a book. Why, why do you think this is such a, like, why do you think it's only new now? Like why do you think people are only coming out with it now? This type of genre? I have two. Two hypotheses. Okay. One is that fear cells. Right. True. Like we are so biologically wired to be afraid of things that like if you just took the same story, like if you took iRobot Yeah. And turned it into like robots are gonna be just amazing and there's no problems at all. People like literally wouldn't believe it. They wouldn't buy it. Yeah. Like yeah. It's gonna be a total flop at the, there's no conflict. They need conflict. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I would say the other one is like these stories.

17:39 There's utopian fiction, but it's always so far off, right. Star Trek, like infinite free energy, universal basic income, et cetera. But it's like 400 years from now. Yes, but like where solar punk really like means something to the genre is like kind of the next a hundred years, like the messy middle where we're trying to figure out where, where hope is like. A question rather than kind of a given in a, in a distant utopia. Yes. Uh, and what I learned as I started writing this book and thinking about like, Hey, am I gonna publish this? How do I publish it? Uh, it turns out it's actually very hard to publish near future books like this because they're like instantly dated. They expire so quickly.

18:19 Right. You know, any, any like predictions you make in your book in five years, they're gonna turn out to be wrong. So your book is a very short shelf life. Get it. I get it. Yeah. So now, now, so how do you, so, so this like solar punk type of, of novel, you know, it, it, it expires quickly. So why, why do you think people are catching onto it now, like, or are really enjoying it now? Is it just because it's so near future? People wanna know what the near future is. People want to know what the near future is. And I think it's also this rebellion against the oversaturation of fear and anxiety in our world. Hence the punk a part of it. Yeah. People are just so desperate for, tell me something besides, the future's gonna suck.

19:02 Yeah. And like when you, when you really think about it, like, the future is what we make of it. Yeah. And what we make of it is really informed by the stories that we read. So in a way, it's almost an act of creative rebellion to see like, we're surrounded by fear. Everyone thinks the future's gonna suck, but like, what if, what if it does work out? Yeah. And like you share that idea with people and you're actually like helping to build that future through storytelling. Right, right. And, and I mean, I, that's, that's the beauty of it, is to kind of give you, is to unlock that hope in you. I think hope is a very powerful, you know, powerful way to do it, but you still, you can still have conflict, but give hope in that way. Right.

19:42 Yeah. This, uh, was probably the hardest part about writing this book was. In a book about hope, what is the conflict? Yeah, yeah. You know, in a book that's not dystopian. Mm-hmm. Why are, so the book is a heist. Right? Right. And like usually in a heist it's like, why would someone participate in this like, super dangerous, illegal thing if there's like nothing going wrong in their life. Mm-hmm. Uh, so it's very interesting to navigate that and, and find something that was hopeful and yet. Yeah. Dangerous and exciting. Yeah. So I want you to, as you kind of alluded to it, but I want you to give us the, the, the, without giving too much away, you know, we know it's a, it's a solar punk heist.

20:24 Give us a little bit of a premise of what people can think about. Like what, what would be on the back of the book, what's gonna be on the back of the book to give a like that, that, that, that lull to of like, Hey, how do I wanna read this? Yeah. So if you've ever asked the question of what. Lives in our life. Climate change adaptation will look like. Mm-hmm. You're gonna wanna read this. Okay. And if you've ever read in a climate book and just been like, dear job, this is boring. And you want something that's actually fun to read. Yeah. This is first and foremost, uh, like high stakes, thrilling page, turning heist. So like, if you want something enjoyable to read and where you just happen to like get some new ideas about our future, like.

21:07 Check this out. I love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna clip that, that's gonna be the commercial for, for this type of book. I, I think it's great. And, and you know, you want something that, like you're on the edge of your seat as you're reading it. Um, you know, it, it's, it's, you're, you're following the story closely, but you're seeing, I, I assume what's happening is you're just seeing the world that they live in while they do this heist. Right. And how they've adapted to climate change. Uh, almost in a way, and the way I'm thinking of it, like. I can remember Dem the movie Demolition Man. Whereas in the future, I don't, I forget how many years in the future, uh, but like Sylvester Stallone, Wesley Snipes, they're in there, they've been frozen. They all of a sudden they're discovering this new future where they've adapted, you know, no violence, no this, no that.

21:50 And then all of a sudden this is what they live in and they, they're trying to change or they're trying to like stay true to themselves. It's a really interesting thing where I think the major restaurant, the nice restaurants were Taco Bell, I think, and, and it's, you know, very weird kind of way. But I think that's what it is. It's just like, here's the story that's happening. It's a, it's a heist, and then this is the, the world that they live in. So you kind of discover what a fu, like a near future world of climate change is gonna look like. Yeah. And I, I was really intentional about, so it's, it's an ensemble heist, right? There's a whole cast of characters. Gotcha. And each one of those characters has had a very different experience in the world of how climate change is affecting them and how they're adapting to it.

22:32 So even as you just get to meet the characters, you're learning about other parts of the world, other challenges they're facing, how are they solving it? Uh, you know? Yeah. Well in heist. I love it. I love it. Now, you know, obviously this is in the future. We're not, we're not psychic. Uh, where did you come up with some of the, the sort of the environments that you're gonna, that the reader's going to encounter in this book? How did you come up with it? Uh, did you try and look as, as what it would consider to be as accurate as possible? So that was one of my goals. Uh, my, my tagline for this book is basically The Martian meets Ocean 11 in a world adapting to climate change.

23:15 Okay. So it has to be a fun heist. Yeah. And, you know, very accurate, very scientifically backed. Right. Uh, and so yeah, I consulted with a lot of people. Uh, um, just anytime that I wanted to pull something in, I would make sure to talk to an expert. Like how, like how would this happen? How would you adapt? Right. So when you, when you do a, when you write, like is this your first novel? Um, well I did write one in, in high school, but this is going to be my first published novel. Okay. Well, no, but that's important though 'cause it's not your first time going through the process. Maybe with an actual publisher it's probably different, I assume. Mm-hmm. When you set out to write this book, like why did you decide this book?

23:57 Like obviously you had some experience, a little bit of experience in high school, what made you do a book and not like a podcast or you know, like a YouTube channel or something like that? Like what made you decide I'm gonna write this book? Well, when I started, uh, I wasn't sure if I was going to publish it or not. Okay. I felt the creative need to write a book and, you know, that's what felt accessible to me at the time. Um, you know, uh, it seems a bit more straightforward to put words on a page than to figure out mm-hmm. All the video editing, um, or even sound editing, you know, ma made do those to you on, on figuring all that out. Um, and so I just, you know, I started writing it for fun and then I hit like 50, 60, 70,000 words and was like, oh, I made something.

24:46 Like, I kind of care about it and I think it has a good message. Maybe I should like, you know, take it seriously and like hire an editor and like figure this out. I love it. I love it Now, uh, to go through this process the first time, it's gotta be a little. A little challenging to figure out what you need. Obviously going, you know, writing 50 to 70,000 words, you make it sound easy. My friend, like, Todd, this is not an easy thing to do, but you, you love, I assume you love writing. So that, that's, that's not hard for you to, for you to do. But the whole process, like to start off, where did you go? Like where, like finding a publisher, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and I will say it, it was hard in the sense of like, you run into writer's walk.

25:27 Yeah. And you just have to keep writing. And so, yeah. Um, I ended up applying skills that I've used elsewhere in life to form successful habits of like, if there's a thing you wanna do, make it as easy as possible and make it like a daily repeating thing so you don't have to think about it. So I was like, like home screen in my laptop. Anytime I open it, first thing is the book. Yeah. And then, uh. Setting like a day, like I'm going to write for 15 minutes a day. You know, if it's more than that, that's great, but like by setting that bar at 15 minutes. It felt more approachable, I'd be like, okay, like I don't even know what I'm gonna write about, but I'll try writing for 15 minutes. And 90% of the time it would turn into like a two hour marathon.

26:11 Yeah. Well, 'cause I think I like that. You, you, you kind of do it in a short spurt. It's like, look, I can do this. This is doable every day. Whatever's going on in your life, whatever you have to do. Obviously you're working during this time, like I assume you're, you're full still have a full-time job. Yeah. So, you know, doing it in little chunks in 15 minutes, that's great. And then all of a sudden you're probably like, after 15 minutes, you're like, no, no, no. I'm on roll here. I'm just gonna keep going. I'm just gonna keep rolling with this story idea or this, this line in the story. I'm gonna keep going. Boom. All of a sudden you're like, two hours later I've got 20,000 words. Okay, cool. Like, I dunno if that's possible, but not 20,000 words in two hours, but yeah, no, no, but like, you know what I mean? Like you've, I've, I've just written for two hours, got some ideas out of your head. You probably feel like after like one or two hours, you probably feel a little, a little tired mentally, you know, just from, from a little drained on, on that.

26:58 After doing that right. Yeah. It, it was actually really interesting to see how the creative energy, uh, it, it almost ended up being like physical energy, you know, like you work out right? And then you're like tired. Yeah. Like to put forth that creativity, like the creative part of your brain is like, I need to take a nap, you know? Yeah. I get it. I, I also, sorry, go ahead. It's kinda like a muscle in that sense of like, yeah. Then you can build a creative energy. You can build your endurance. You can write for like two and a half hours, three hours. So I think that was like a, a helpful framework. So how many hours do you think it took you to finish off this book? Like to write this whole book? If you, if you, oh, if I had to, if I had to calculate that number, it would make me sad.

27:41 But if I had to, yes. I think by the time we publish it, I will probably have spent about a thousand hours on it. Yeah. Crazy. A thousand hours, like roughly two hours a day for, yeah. Two, you know, two or three years, so Yeah. Geez. And, and working at the same time. Like, this is your hobby at, at the, like at this point it's your hobby, right? Like it, I mean obviously you're getting it published and stuff, but you're doing this as an extracurricular activity essentially. Yeah. And in a way I think it works well. Yeah. Because, you know, I think of like what I write in the book and so much of it is informed by real life.

28:26 Where it would be very hard to just do this in a vacuum chamber. Gotcha. But yeah, for sure. Uh, you know, I'm constantly stealing things that I see in real life, and I think that makes the book Yeah, a lot more interesting and a lot more realistic. What barriers did you encounter while writing this book? Uh, I, I would say rejection is a big one. Uh, okay. And, and like, yeah, so last year when I started trying to send this out to publishers where I kind of finished the first draft, I'd like run it past the first draft editor and I was like, okay, I think I have something here.

29:12 40 emails out. 39 nos and then one, yes. Okay. And I could have stopped at 38 and been like, yeah, this is ridiculous. Like 38 people said no. Uh, yeah, but I'm stubborn. So. Well, I mean it that, well, I mean, it worked, right? The stubbornness worked. Yeah. 'cause you, you finally found that, that one, this is not, uh, abnormal, I assume from the publishing industry. It's just a lot of, they probably get pitched all the time. It's difficult. And you, you need to find that, I assume you need to find that one publisher that believes in the book, but as it's written Yeah. And then saying, okay, we, if we, I'm sure they're gonna come with some suggestions and, and tweaks and stuff, then, then you, it's, they feel it's workable. Right.

29:52 Yeah, it actually really helped me to understand other people's creative journeys and see that this is pretty common. Um, you know, I looked up stories from other authors and like very frequently I was like, yeah, you know, 95% rejection rate. Uh, but actually the one that really stuck in my mind is Lord of the Rings and Peter Jackson. Uh, I was a huge, huge Lord of the Rings fan growing up, and I watched like all of the behind the scenes. Yeah. And in one of the behind, behind the scenes, he talks about how he had to take it to dozens of, of, uh, movie houses before a single person bit. And like, you know, I, I have no, I claim that my book is anywhere near as good as the Peter Jackson loved during movies. You never know.

30:33 It's like, yes. If you believe it, you just have to keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's really what it comes down to. But like, and, and in that journey. I, I assume, like, did you have a lot of self-doubt after each je like, you know, getting more and more rejections? Did you have that self-doubt? Yeah. Uh, for sure. And then, you know, not even just with the publishers, but like, after I got my publisher and then I started getting editor feedback, right. You know, sometimes I get the feedback and you'd be like, this is great and you just need to tweak this. And I'd be like, cool. Done. And sometimes it'd be like, wow, this like whole chapter, this whole character doesn't, just doesn't work. Be like, but they're, it's integral to the plot.

31:13 If I get rid of them, I have have the book. Uh, and how, so how do you react to that when you get that reaction, you know, and you're like, I don't really wanna change that. Like, from a creative standpoint, this, like you said, this character's integral to the rest of the book. How do you re, how do you react to that kind of stuff? Do you get, is it like an anger kind of thing or more of like a desperation? Like, my book will change if I do this? I would say. It's a little sadness or despair. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, like you, you invest your heart in a creative project, and so then when someone's like, this is garbage, you're like, but does, does that make me garbage?

32:04 Right. This is, this is me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and. The intimidation too, of having to make those big changes. So eventually I found this sort of process where I would like read the feedback in a very detached manner and sit on it and actually start first applying this mental question of like, is this feedback I want to apply? Right? Um, what. What I started realizing, isn't it are like once you get past the like basic stuff, like, you know, are there typos? Like is your grammar good?

32:45 A lot of it really boils down to artistic choice. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. And subjectivity. And, you know, I started getting like conflicting feedback of like, I like this character, I don't like this character. I'm like, well, can't please both of you. So like, I have to go back to what, what the story I want to tell is. Yeah. Uh. And that's, that's hard to do. 'cause you know you want your book to be a success and you think like if someone gives you feedback, if you apply the feedback, it'll make it more successful. Yeah, but Well, and especially with the genre like you're looking at like solar punk, you know, like a heist, right? This is very different than what many publishers probably see. You're trying to.

33:26 Provided optimistic look to climate change very different than what the, the, the normal narrative is, or the traditional narrative is for climate change. Was that ever, uh, at risk of being changed through the editing process? Um, I'd say the high level idea was not, you know, I, right. I was. Lucky enough to find a publisher and an editor that understood what I was trying to achieve. Uh, and I guess that makes sense. 'cause you know, they, they want, they took it on, they, yeah. Obvious they have to understand the project and want that, want that project.

34:06 'cause they're getting pitched with so many books. If they don't like the exact mission statement for your book, they're probably just gonna take on a different book. But, uh, I mean, I've gotten to the point around like, I don't know. Publisher rejection number 30 where it started being like, maybe I should self-publish. Yeah. So there's a whole section of my Google search history of like, how does self-publish a self-publish good idea. I mean, it's an idea. I think I would go towards that after that many rejection. Like, you know what? I'm just gonna self, but there's a, yeah. So what's the difference between getting a, a publisher and then also self publishing? Like what, in that process, what's the difference? Well, okay, for me. I wanted to go the publishing route for two read.

34:49 One is I really wanted to see how it can be done Right. And professionally. Yeah. And then learn from that and maybe do it myself the next time. Right. Like I, that's my mental model for learning is like, watch a professional, do it. Yes. And then like copy and paste. Uh, the other one is I really hope it gets turned into a movie. I, it's like one of my bucket list items is like, write something that turns into a movie. Might not be the book, but like Yeah. Uh, I felt that going, the, the traditional publisher route was like a, gave it kind of a better chance of being taken seriously as a movie. Gotcha. And it makes sense. And also like, I, I, I think the feedback is awesome too, right? To be able to.

35:29 Share your, your creative work with publishers and, and editors, like professionals that do this each and every day who have seen countless books, right. Compared to maybe yourself or others. Obviously, you're probably well read and, and things like that. If you're ready to read a, uh, write a book, but, you know, that's, that's also a, a, probably a, a plus, a positive. Getting a published book is just like you, you're, you're getting input into the story, input into the writing style that might play a role down the down the road. If a book does get picked up. Yeah, no, and I think feedback is critical to really any creative process, including writing. And you know, even outside of my publisher, I recruited a lot of my own beta readers.

36:12 Uh, yeah. Gotcha. Mostly friends. But yeah, I actually found like a website online called Critique Circle, where you post chapters, you read other people's chapters. They have a really smart system where. You get credits for reviewing other people's chapters. Yeah. And then you need credits to post your own. So it's, it kind of keeps this like healthy economy alive where Yeah. You're incentivized to review other people. It's kind of like a science journal in a way. Like, you know, you write, you write articles and they ask you to review articles and that's like part of the service. Yeah. And you know, thankfully no money is required. Yeah. I know the science journalism space is running into a lot of the expensive paywalls right now, but Yeah. Uh, I actually think that that's a super interesting model. Of the future.

36:53 Um, because, you know, as part of this whole solar punk idea, I think community and people are such a large part of the problem. Sorry, part of the solution. Solution, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Community and people are such a large part of the solution and one of the ways that we do that is we figure out systems that help us align, help us work better together rather than worse. Uh, so these platforms. I mean, Craigslist is like this weirdly old school, but perfect example of like if you just, and make a platform where people can buy and sell used items. Yeah. I mean, who knows how many, like millions of tons of CO2 Craigslist has saved from things being landfilled.

37:36 Yeah, it's incredible. It's true. 'cause normally people would just throw stuff out. Even for like Facebook marketplaces, people are like, I got this junk, but I can sell it for 50 bucks and, and just make something off of it and it gets reused. So it makes sense to, for reusable stuff, it probably saves a lot, a ton of stuff from, from going into the, yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. That's, that's really interesting. So, um, with this story, what do you hope readers get out of it? I hope that readers of how to surf for hurricane walk away believing that there's hope in the future, and feeling excited and empowered to take action themselves and with their community.

38:22 Okay. Yeah, I like that. And so, I mean, that's what you want. You want the call to action. So part of the book is there like a, will there be like a follow up with you? You know, you'll probably do some talks and stuff like that, but like, is there, like you want them to feel a call to action? So after the book, I'm reading it and I'll be like, oh man, this is awesome. I feel inspired to do something else. How will you, like, is there a way that they can get directed to something? Like, are you going to create something like that or say, here are a bunch of of organizations such as like Surf Ride or something like that, that are going to help you, guide you to do that kind of call to action? Yeah. Uh, so obviously going to keep doing podcasts and spreading the word, but also for listeners of how to protect the ocean.

39:06 I've prepared a special page on the book's website. Nice. How to serve for hurricane.com/protect, which will not only give them a free sneak preview of the book, but includes some, some actions and some ideas on how you can get started yourself helping to protect the ocean. I love that. What a nice surprise. That's amazing. Uh, this is a guy who knows how to. Sell a book. This is, this is fantastic, I think, but I mean that, that's what's important, right? When you write a novel like this, you want people to feel inspired. You want people to take action. Here, you're providing people with a methodology, some ideas, some strategies. I think that's, that's fantastic. And, and I can't wait. Yeah, I can't wait to read the book. I can't wait for people to read the book.

39:47 Um, people are, as you're reading this, or as you're listening to this, you're watching this, the book, the, the, the pre-orders are up and you can grab the pre-orders. I can put the link in the show notes. Um, Todd, like, as we kind of wrap this up, like what do you want people, uh, to feel after this book? Like what do you want people to do? I want people. First and foremost, I want people to spend time in nature. Yes, that's pro. Like the single most important thing you can do is spend time in nature. 'cause it's gonna recharge you. It's gonna shield you against all the fear and anxiety in the world, and it's gonna remind you, this is what I'm fighting for.

40:27 Yeah. And then take that energy and act. Yeah. There's so many ideas online about how you can act, you know, find something that makes sense for your life and your lifestyle. And build on that action, join some sort of group or community near you with similar desires and goals to just keep, keep building on that and enabling other people. Yeah. I love that. I think that's, that's, that's a great, great message. Uh, you know, Todd, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast, for writing the book. Uh, I can't wait to read it. I can't wait for people to read it, and I wanna hear what people say, you know? Uh, we'll, we'll tell people how to get ahold of you. We'll put your, your links in, in the show notes so that people can give you their feedback, their inspiration, how they felt about the book.

41:12 Um, I can't wait for it to come out. You must be super excited. I am. Thank you so much, Andrew. It's been, it's a, been a pleasure talking with you and I hope you enjoy the book Absolutely. Surf for hurricane.com. Yes, absolutely. Say that again 'cause I kind of interrupted you. Say that one more time. Uh, how to surf a hurricane.com. Perfect. We'll put that link in the show notes for you guys to get ahold of that, and we'll put in the comments on the YouTube channel. Again, Todd, thank you so much for writing the book. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us all about it. We can't wait to have you back on, uh, and to find out what happened, you know, what happened during this, during this journey of yours. Um, do you plan, like, I know this, you're still in the first book and the, and still in the editing process and like the release process and stuff like that, but do you plan on writing another one, like a follow up?

41:56 Don't tell anyone, but I have started working on a sequel. What? That's awesome. Love it. Alright. This is gonna be good. Can't wait to hear more about that. Thank you very much Todd for coming on the podcast. We really appreciate it. Uh, looking forward to having you back on the next time. Thanks, Andrew. Thank you, Todd, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. What an interview in terms of talking about a book that he just wrote, like pretty much his first time with a publisher. I don't know how you write a book. I've always wanted to write a book, especially with the amount of interviews that I've done and the amount of people that I've met, amazing people that I've met. Maybe one day that'll come. But to write a novel and to just write it every day for like two to three years to get rejected so many times, to build that resilience in yourself just like Todd did, that's inspiration right there, right?

42:40 That's an inspiring journey right there to write a novel, not an easy thing to do, and then hopefully one day we might see it on the big screen. I think that would be kind of cool to see that, but I think it's important to be able to read this book, to be able to think about climate change in the future, near future, and how we adapt to it and to see what those results are. I can't wait to read this book. I know you probably can't wait to read this book, so I'm gonna put the pre-order link in the show notes. Go get it, buy it. Support Todd and his efforts also support in thinking about climate change in a different way and support this genre, right? The solar punk genre. That's kind of a cool thing to do. Punk has always been rebellious. This thought process is a bit rebellious 'cause it's not normally done, and he's challenging you to think in a different way, and I just love the fact that he's doing this.

43:23 So thank you again, Todd, and I wanna thank you who's listening to this podcast, who's watching this on YouTube. I wanna thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. If you want to get ahold of me. You can do so by going to Instagram, DMing me at How to Protect the Ocean, or you can go on our YouTube channel, subscribe, hit that notification bell so you don't miss any of the future episodes. I wanna thank you for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the True Nor Strong and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.