Map the Deep Sea: How Ocean Mapping Drives Conservation, Equity, and Innovation

0:00 Most of the planet is ocean. Yet over 75% of the sea floor remains unmapped in high resolution. The deep sea is earth's final frontier, home to ancient life. Vital ecosystems and untapped discoveries. Without maps, we can't protect what we don't know exists. Threatened coral reefs, biodiversity hotspots. Or submarine landslides. Oil and gas can drill, cables can be laid, and mining can begin all in areas we've barely explored. Map the gaps brings together the global ocean mapping community to close this knowledge gap. Through technology, science and collaboration, they chart the unseen to inform policy conservation and innovation mapping isn't just about data, it's about equity, inclusion, and shared stewardship of our ocean commerce.

0:51 Indigenous voices, small island nations and emerging ocean leaders are crucial to this global effort. With each mapped ridge or trench, we unlock climate clues, disaster risk, insights, and marine management tools. 'cause of better Ocean map means a better future for nature, for science, and for all of us. Today I'll be speaking to Tim Kerns of Map the Gaps on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.

1:32 And I'm gonna tell you something that I discovered really recently. Map the gaps is one of these projects that. Doesn't always see the big, bright lights of, you know, the news or of the main focus of what people are talking about when we talks about exploring the ocean, but mapping gaps in the ocean, mapping the deep sea is extremely important and crucial for our entire existence. Let's be honest, this is something that needs to happen. We need to map the gaps, and I'm so excited to be speaking with Tim Kerns, who is from Map the Gaps, but is also a former teacher of mine when I did my GIS Analyst Advanced Diploma in 2003, 2004, at the Center Geographical Sciences in Nova Scotia.

2:16 When I was a kid, when I was doing my master's, I did this diploma. I met Tim. He has this. Energy around him that you can't duplicate. He loves to talk about exploration, loves to talk about sea floor, and this is just a perfect project for him. Perfect opportunity for him, not only to discuss the map the GAP symposium, but also discuss the future of Map the gaps and why we need to map. The gaps. It's gonna be a lot of fun. This interview. I can't wait for you guys to see the interview if you're watching this on YouTube or you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app. But definitely this is one you don't want to miss. If you want to know the future of Oceans and why we need to map the gaps, this is the episode for you. So here's the interview with Tim Kerns.

2:58 Enjoy and I will talk to you after. Hey Tim, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about Map the gaps? I am always ready to talk about map the gaps. Awesome. Well, this is a very special episode for me today because Tim and I, not only are we gonna be talking about mapping the ocean, which is something that's both a passion of ours, but Tim was a teacher of mine when I actually did my GIS Analyst, advanced diploma at COGS University in Nova Scotia. He taught me remote sensing. We had a great time in your class, Tim. It was always fun. Not only did we get to know you in the class, but we also got to know you, like in the lab, around the campus. You were a lot of fun just as well as all the other teachers.

3:39 And it was great, uh, to be able to see it and then come, you know, 20 over 20 years later. We're not gonna say how old we are, but you know, 20 years later. Here we are talking on the podcast about mapping and looking at deep sea oceans and why we need to map these gaps that we have in the ocean. I am super excited to be able to talk about this, but before we do, Tim, why don't you just let the audience know who you are and what you do. Okay. Well, thanks Andrew for the introduction. And I will also say it's, it's always really, uh, very rewarding to me. I mean, I taught for five years Yeah. At, uh, the College of Geographic Sciences, which is now part of Nova Scotia Community College. And, uh, it's very rewarding to know where students ended up in their careers.

4:23 So it's great and a little bit happenstance, the happenstance that here we are. Something, something many years later and you're highly successful in your career. Thank you. And I just think that's great and what a great opportunity we have to chat again. Absolutely. After these, uh, after these long years. So, uh, thanks And, uh, my name's Tim Kerns and I've been with Map the Gap since 2019, which is when the company was founded. I've developed my whole career around ocean related technology and almost always around ocean. Floor mapping or ocean floor exploration. So rewind back to when I lived in Ontario. Yeah. And I was in, uh, university and I did a geography undergrad and didn't really know what I wanted to do with it.

5:09 I knew I liked mapping, I took an oceanography course. Hmm. And that opened my eyes Yeah. To the world of oceanography. And even though I grew up in Ontario, I immediately had this. Inexplicable love for the ocean, uh, that I'm sure still my parents scratch their heads over and I knew that I needed to go out and dis and do ocean floor mapping. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. And so I was very fortunate. Uh, and I went and I actually was a student as well at the College of Geographic Sciences. Yeah. Or COGS as people say. And although I did a remote sensing. Uh, advanced diploma, I actually tailored most of my work around ocean floor mapping, and it was just, I was just a sponge of information and, uh, eventually got hired at the Bed Bedford Institute of Oceanography mm-hmm.

5:54 With the Canadian Hydrographic Service, where it was a fire hose of knowledge and training and, and the beginning of my career really. In this, uh, fascinating technology. So that's, that's, that was a little bit of where I was Yeah. At the beginning of my career. And I've done a lot of things over the years. I've taught, as you mentioned, I've been in software development, uh, I've led project teams and consulting teams. I've run companies and I've supported companies and worked in hardware and software. And most recently at a nonprofit doing amazing work around marine observations in the Great Lakes and supporting Lakebed 2030. And, uh, now I'm, uh, still supporting Map the Gaps, which is really a non-profit. Yeah.

6:34 It's mostly volunteer run and has been since 2019 and Map the Gaps was kind of founded out of the Shell Ocean Discovery XPRIZE competition. Hmm. Which, uh, I was part of a team that started in 2016. Yeah. And this was a think of a bad news Bears. Uh, uh, kind of a ragtag group of people from all over the world. Uh, we had almost no money, but we were very generously supported by the Nip on Foundation. Mm-hmm. Who supported our team. We put together a submission and a proposal to the Shell Ocean Discovery xprize, and our team ended up winning the whole darn thing. It was quite remarkable. Uh, we were the underdog and we still pulled it off, and after that we wanted to keep the spirit alive of doing amazing things.

7:19 Yeah. With. A disparate group of people from all over the world. Yeah. And boom, map the gaps was formed. Amazing. Just to go back, I forgot that you grew up in Ontario. What university did you go to where you took oceanography? I went to University of Windsor, which I don't think is known for oceanography program, but it had one course, yeah. In maybe third year. And, uh, and I loved it and it was great. Love it. Well, it does have a good fisheries program, if I'm not mistaken. Like I remember that was one of my universities I went to. I went to Guelph, but, uh, no, Windsor was really good in their, in their biology and their like physical sciences and stuff. And, and, and that's awesome. Um. Now with, with map the gaps, I mean, with all your, with all your information, like, like, uh, all your experience, I should say, and, and the value that you have brought to every position that you've been in.

8:05 Like you've had a pretty wide breadth of, you know, from teaching to, you know, hardware, software development to, uh, running companies and so forth. When MAP the Gap idea came to you and your colleagues. Did it, was it, was it your idea or was it just a bunch of people sitting around at a conference being like, we, we need to do this. Like this is something that's gonna, like how did the idea come to be in 2019? Oh, that's a great question. I think really it was a group, it was a group effort. Yeah. I'm not gonna claim any sort of, uh, ownership or, or anything like that. Uh, there was several of us who were part of the leadership of the XPRIZE team.

8:46 Um, I had also been running, uh. An annual event on called, uh, the Map the Gap Symposium. Mm-hmm. That had been started in 2016. Uh, that was an affiliation with Jeb Co. Right. And uh, really I think there was just a general momentum of wanting to keep this spirit alive. Yeah. But also wanting to formalize the symposium a little bit. So I'd say some of my close colleagues of the leadership from the XPRIZE team and myself, we said, what's the best way to do that? Really the best way to do that is forming a legitimate company. Yeah. A notfor profit. Yeah. Uh, where the rules are very clear in terms of any work that we do is in the science domain, right. Any data we collect is publicly available.

9:27 Um, and then have access to this network of people all around the world. Yeah. Who can come in, come out, they can participate when they can or not. And that's the beauty of a volunteer based organization. Mm-hmm. And it's not to say it'll always be volunteer based because we are trying to raise. Some real capital, right? So we can grow the company, uh, to do more of what we've been doing for the last six years. And yeah, and this is, this is always, that interests me 'cause I've, I've known a lot of nonprofits that have grown out of symposiums. So, so first symposium was in Mount the Gap symposium was in 2016. And then, and by 2019 you're like, let's formalize this a little bit more. Let's put a company around it, a nonprofit organization around it.

10:08 When you ran the first, when you guys ran the first symposium. Uh, to 2019. What made it so that that was like, this is what we need to do? Was it just, was it increasing in membership and increasing in, in participation from other people? Was it other people being like, Hey, we need to do, like, was was the sort of the final, um, resolution of the symposium being like, we need to do something more. We need to do more things, or we need to really formalize this. What made that. Come that idea come about where it's like, we need to formalize this and put it under a structure, like a nonprofit organization like Math Gaps. Right? Well, like many things in life, the simplest answer is usually the best one.

10:52 And in this case, it was a very practical consideration. Okay. Which was there were expenses incurred. That required a business. Gotcha. That makes sense. Required a credit card. Uh, but it, that was, I mean, we probably could have continued on, right? But another thing happened between 2016 and 2019 as well, which was the success of the symposium grew and was attracting more people. Uh, so we, we needed to, to be able to put on a bigger event with. More things and food and beverage and activities and attract speakers. And so all of that of course requires capital.

11:33 And it rent from, I think in 2016 we had maybe 50 or 60 people attend. And by 2019 we were having 150 people. Wow. Uh, come to the events and then when we went through the COVID era, we had over 600 people tuning in. 'cause it was all live streamed Of course. And so the event itself grew Yeah. And just warranted practical considerations for sure. Like having a proper, a dedicated website, having a credit card to pay for things, having the ability to sign contracts, but it was also attracting a whole new audience. Mm-hmm. Back in 2016, it was a very small group of people who were very familiar with each other. By 2019, our percentage of people who were attending a symposium for the first time was at 80%.

12:19 So we recognized that we were attracting new people to the symposium year over year, which was great. Yeah. Because they were getting exposed to ocean floor mapping. Mm-hmm. Which is a relatively unknown, I would say. It's not a technology, it's a relatively unknown activity. Yeah. Many people think that the oceans have been met. Yeah. And that's one of our largest barriers that my colleagues and I in this community have is because they see Google Earth or they see the base map from Esri. Yeah. Or wherever. Or they see the pictures in National Geographic and they think, oh, but it's already been done. Mm-hmm. We say, well, not really.

13:02 Yeah. And it's, it's as, it's very interesting. It's like these, these assumptions that we think that have been done because Yeah, it makes sense to do them. So people are thinking, of course we have, we've, we've mapped them and we know. Probably what we need to know about, about the deep, which we'll get into in just a sec, because we know that, that that's not true. The, uh, you mentioned the increase of people that are coming and the makeup of people, you know, mapping the gaps and, and looking at ocean floor exploration. Looking at, at the science that can happen, the discoveries that can happen, um, the opportunities that are available. Who are the, like what professional backgrounds are the people who, who normally attend these symposiums and make up sort of the membership or the people within, within Maps the gaps Now.

13:51 Mm-hmm. That's a great question. Um, well, it, it's evolved. Mm-hmm. Over time. So I would say historically or traditionally, the people who are involved in any sort of ocean floor exploration and mapping fall into scientific and go. Camps, people who are doing this for hydrographic purposes. Mm-hmm. Which is nautical charting, safety of navigation, and, um, uh, protection of people and vessels at sea. Mm-hmm. Uh, then there's also exploration, uh, sorry, like mineral exploration or. Oil and gas exploration. Mm-hmm. Or root survey for, uh, where to lay cables and pipelines.

14:31 Yep. Right? Yep. You need to know what the bottom looks like. There's a lot of work around benthic habitat and understanding the nature of the sea floor, so we know what biology and marine life, uh, lives there and, and calls that their home. Um, and then there's also a lot of. Complimentary science that goes along with that better understanding. Tsunami modeling, understanding seismic and plate tectonics, and all of these influences that affect the oceans and ultimately earth, um, come from this foundational data set of bathymetry. So the professionals who are involved are. Survey engineers, they're government officials or their graphers or baths.

15:12 Mm-hmm. Um, they're scientists, they're oceanographers. It's a really wide range of people who, um, get involved. And in the symposium we also started attracting a new audience member, which was young people who. Maybe had a background like yours in GIS. Yeah, and were really interested because two other things happened in the late teens of, uh, as it relates to the ocean, but probably three things. One was the general population of earth like society became critically aware that. Uh, the oceans are perhaps in harm.

15:53 Mm-hmm. And we need to do a better job of protecting them writ large. Yeah. And so awareness of the ocean environment, things like the garbage patch and pollution and warming temperatures, were all becoming more predominant in the news media. Mm-hmm. And becoming on people's minds. Um, the Jeb Co. Jeb Co, which is the general IC metric chart of the oceans. Partnered with the NIP on Foundation to create a project called the Seabed 2030 Project. So this is supported by Jeb Co. And the NIP on Foundation and the Seabed 2030 project has been phenomenal in raising awareness about the need for ocean floor mapping. Yep. And just how little of it has been done.

16:34 So all of that happened after 2016, and then the UN. Has a decade of ocean science, which is all around, you know, 10 years all around ocean science and ocean technology and, and the needs of our, of our own planet. So I think all of those things culminated into attracting a new audience for groups like map the Gaps and the symposium, but not just map the gaps. It's just, it's all over, uh, young people who want to be involved. They want to contribute, they want to put their energy into this, learn more so they can do more and take responsibility and. Action for the health of our own planet. Mm-hmm. And that's, and that's interesting. So as the, the people changed and increased, did the mission for Map the Gaps change, like as it was formed in 2019 officially, you know, you probably had like an idea in the symposium and there's probably different themes throughout the, for each symposium, what was like the initial.

17:31 Mission of Maps, the GA map, the gaps when the symposium started. And how did, did it, did it change when you actually created the entity as we know it now, as map the gaps? Uh, that's a great question. The initial mission was a, to put on the symposium. Yeah. Every year, another part of the mission was to develop partners and help build this network of companies, organizations, and individuals who wanted to support. Ocean floor mapping and exploration, um, through helping map the gaps. And then a third part was actually participating. In and coordinating actual emissions. Hmm. And so this is people going out on boats or remotely processing data, uh, that are in support of bathymetry data collection.

18:18 Hmm. And so we did all three of those things and continue to do all three of those things. I would say the mission expanded over the last five years, and this is where we are now. We're at this point where we realize that there's really. Maybe none, but certainly not very many organizations that are advocating or actively doing systematic ocean floor exploration. Right. So certainly Seabed 2030. Once again, phenomenal. Yeah. Uh, growth and advocacy for the need and has also done a great job at aggregating available data sets and in many cases, uh, supporting or partnering with other organizations who are collecting data.

19:00 Mm-hmm. That then contribute that to this public database, uh, accessed via Seabed 2030 map the gaps. Wants to take a, a bit of a step further. We want to actually organize and do. Systematic ocean floor exploration. Hmm. And so there's a program that we're looking to develop now, and that's part of what we're talking about at the conference this fall in October, is how do we connect individuals perhaps with money Yeah. Or organizations to participate in ocean floor exploration in some capacity. And part of our new, part of our new mantra, I guess, is that who can participate in ocean floor exploration?

19:41 Anyone can. Right? You don't have to be an oceanographer, you don't have to be a super wealthy individual. You don't have to have a boat. You don't have to be belong to a hydrographic office in a company or in a, in a country. Anyone can participate in Ocean four exploration. Yeah. And there's various ways that they can do that. And that's interesting. You know, in the name itself, map the gaps. We're looking at mapping the deep sea, but let's be honest. The gaps are pretty big right now. We're not talking about small gaps like small swaths of, of areas that have not been mapped. There's a lot of area in the deep sea that has not been mapped, so it's a large undertaking.

20:25 How do you, where do you begin? With this mission of, of bringing people in and, and like, I guess when the people come in, what are, what are their thoughts when they initially come in? Some of these professionals that you have on Engineers, Beres, you know, GIS, you know, young gi s people, people who have been doing GIS for a long time, like yourself and like, what is the idea around this to like, where do we begin and how do we proceed? Obviously the money you mentioned like the initial funding, but after like where do we begin in terms of mapping? Right. Well, let's talk about the name. Yeah. Because the name means more than just the activity of mapping the ocean floor.

21:08 When we came up with the name, map, the gaps. And originally it started, I didn't, I didn't invent the term map the gaps that started years ago. Mm-hmm. Through people in the Jeb Co community to talk about this concept of mapping the gaps. But when we decided to name the company Map the gaps, it was because it was more than just mapping the ocean. It was also about mapping those gaps or connecting those gaps between. People. Mm. And that is one of the things that's missing. If you go back historically at who has done this type of work, it was graphers. It was militaries and nas. It was science or mineral exploration and oil and gas. It was a relatively small, and even take it a step further, it was mostly.

21:51 White Western. Yeah. Wealthy countries Yes. Or individuals who are doing it. Yeah. So we, it's a, the earth is a big, it's a big place. Mm-hmm. And the oceans are big and they touch borders of countries that do not have the resources that we may have mm-hmm. In Canada and North America and others. So how do we get those people involved? And that was part of the original mission of MAP the Gaps, was connecting other people who may not have the resources. Mm-hmm. So that they can also participate. In this grand endeavor. So now when people come to us and they say, Hey, I'm a GIS person and I want to get involved, well, there was just a fantastic post on LinkedIn the other day by Natalie Gilson that talks about. Um, I'm participating in something, yet I'm behind the screen.

22:35 I'm on my laptop or where my keyboard Right. And yet I still, I still wanna be part of it and I am part of it, but I don't feel like I'm part of it enough, and that's a great sentiment. So true. Uh, you know, I haven't, I haven't been on a survey vessel, survey myself for a couple of decades now. Really? So true. We do. You know, and yet I'm still involved. Yeah. And so when people come to us, in some cases, it's. I want to get out there. I wanna be on a boat. I want to collect data and know what it's like. And that's, and that's great. We'll try to find opportunities and connect people so they can have that, even if it's part-time, even if it's one-off and they, they may love it or they may hate it. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. They're still getting involved for other people.

23:17 It's supporting, not just map the gaps, it's supporting other organizations. So maybe we refer them to support CED 2030 or, or academic, or we get help get them into programs so they can get some additional training. Yeah. Um, that's, that's certainly another way. And then in many cases we have people who support map the gaps directly through supporting our social media, helping build the website, right. Doing fundraising, connecting and growing. The partner community, um, helping with the symposium, that's always, yeah, of course that people can get involved and support it, but it is the task of mapping our oceans is monumental. And it could be multi-decade old even if we were to start tomorrow.

23:58 Um, and it's also expensive, however, relative to other things that humans have done, it's not that much. Right? Yeah. So. We fund and do space exploration. Mm-hmm. And have for many decades now it's time to turn or expand some of that energy and those resources onto planet Earth. And I don't think we can just rely on governments. And there there's two reasons for that. One, governments aren't spending enough money or, you know, they're not investing in this area. Mm-hmm. But even if they did, they would only do it within their national boundary. True. Right. They're inclusive economics, so it's very difficult otherwise. Yeah. A lot of the ocean is in international waters.

24:40 Mm-hmm. The deep blue. And so how do we fund that? How do we get people out there? And it is, it's very important to do it. Mm-hmm. It's never been done. No, and it's never been done. Uh, it, what's, what's interesting too is I've, we've, you know, we've seen the debates, you know, is it easier to work in space or, or why explore space when we haven't even really explored the ocean to the depths of that we need to, you know? And, um, the, the, the, the focus should be on the ocean. Obviously we are biased. We're on this podcast. It's how to protect the ocean. So we're, we're definitely biased, but there's a, there, there is an inherent truth in we need to protect what's on this planet.

25:20 You know, we know we're, we're doing damage to the planet. We don't even know the severity yet. Of total damage that we've, we've done or total dis like influence around the ocean that we've done. 'cause we don't know much about the deep 'cause. We haven't even mapped some of the basics of, of, of some of the, the deep areas that we, that we want to find out about. Um, I feel as though, uh, and, and I'd love to ask you, do you find that. Governments are quick to explore more when there's an opportunity to benefit from it in either natural resource extraction or some sort of, you know, whether it's, it's a, uh, renewable energy, like tidal energy or looking at.

26:01 Deep sea mining. We're quicker to explore that than just to explore for the sake of knowing where, you know, what is down there and, and what we have and, and the, just the depths and, and the bathymetry and the, and the landscape of it all, or the seascape of it all. Do you find that there is more of a, of a push when there's something to gain for these governments or, uh, do you find, do you, do you think otherwise? It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts. 'cause you've, you've been around a lot of different types of like, private and, and public entities, uh, and talking about this. Well, I think like anything in life, people are motivated or organizations are motivated by different factors.

26:42 Mm-hmm. So some of those could be economic factors. Mm-hmm. And some could be. Um, scientific or conservation, some could be exploitative. Yep. And so it, it really runs the gamut. Mm-hmm. And I don't think national governments are any different. Right. Uh, even at the beginning of my career when I was with the Canadian Hydrographic Service, we had partnered with Clearwater Fisheries mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Berg to better understand benthic habitat by doing sea floor mapping. Yeah. Right. And at that time, areas like Browns Bank and Georgia's Bank and German bank off the coast of Nova Scotia, they'd never been mapped.

27:22 It was very poorly understood in terms of what the sea floor morphology looked like. Right. And yet the fishing community was well aware that there were some areas that high had higher yields Yeah. Than others for their catch. And so part of that partnership was definitely economic. Yeah. Um, but it was also scientific. Mm-hmm. So it was understanding, collecting the science to help better influence the economic side. And in the end, fishing presumably became more efficient, but also safer. In a weird sort of way because then they weren't fishing in areas where there were sensitive habitat. Right, right. Because they were at least aware of where the habitat was.

28:03 And before that it was a crap shoot. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I, I think that's just one example of a private partner, private public partnership that had really great benefits for the Canadian government in terms of collecting all this amazing data that better informed. Um, the, the public mm-hmm. And themselves, scientists on what was there, but it also helped efficient community as well. And so I think another, so that's one example. I think another example is the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. So countries being able to better delineate their boundaries based on the foot of the continental shelf. And you know, I mean there's all kinds of variables that go into that, of course.

28:46 And I'm not an expert at, at all on it, but that was one. Motivation and impetus for national governments. Mm-hmm. To rally around the concept of better understanding. Their sea floor adjacent to their coastline going out however many miles was necessary so that they could make a claim that would ultimately help define and protect their national sovereignty. In terms of a boundary. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, but also all that data was collected, you know, phenomenal value and for. Uh, kind of follow on or downstream science that could be done as a result of that data. And that's what we keep coming back to with bathymetry or this ocean floor data.

29:29 Really, it's a foundational data set. It's like. If we don't have that, yeah. Then how can we possibly do everything else? For sure. And so, I mean, you know, and that's, that's one of the largest justifications for collecting it in the first place, right? Is that there's so much complimentary and additional work that can happen as a result of just starting with this foundational data set. To get data, you have to go out and map and map these, these areas. Uh, and it, and it becomes that. It becomes a challenge in itself. It can be, it can be, uh, expensive. It's to, to know where to start, know where to be, like where to go, how is map the gaps going to define that of priority areas of where to, uh, of where to map first or will that be defined by the person who's willing, or the company who's willing to fund it and just be like, Hey.

30:20 I wanna know more about this, this specific area. How are we going to prioritize this at Map the gaps? Well, it's a great question. Map the gaps is not going to arbitrarily make priority areas, right? That's for sure. Right. But I do think that we're looking at exploring some new ways to identify priorities, and some of that could be through gamifying. How it's done. So imagine a landscape where you have small little hexagons and some individual gets to choose which hexagon they wanna map. Right. Or they, they would like to see mapped. Mm-hmm. And maybe they're picking it because there might be a plane crash in there.

31:03 Yeah. Or a shipwreck or some other sunken treasure or. Maybe there's some underwater canyon or volcano, or maybe they just like that area because it's got 50 degrees south and 50 degrees. You know, there's some sort of other interesting, uh, aspect to it for why they chose that particular spot on the ocean that they want to sponsor and adopt. And now. That doesn't mean we're just gonna turn around and send a ship out there and go map it. Obviously we need critical mass of course, before any activities can be done. But I think priority setting could be done through a variety of different ways. One is just through, um, money or, or vote even, right? Yeah. Like where should we go first? Another could be through, um, interesting areas.

31:47 So perhaps there's, we know that. Through course resolution data, let's say something that you might see on Google Earth. Uh, we know there's like some sort of canyon something there, or some sea mounts. We want to go explore that. So maybe that'll attract more interest, uh, that could help with the priority setting. I don't know. I think that, I think that's an area to be developed in terms of how do we set priorities for what needs to be mapped when so much of it hasn't been done at all. Absolutely. That's, I think that's a, it's a great question. I think I love the way to explore the, the different ways of, of doing things. Gamifying a little bit through votes or through where people want to go if they, if they're interested in a specific area.

32:28 I think it's great. It's a great start anyway to see where people are interested. Plus it democratizes the whole thing. I think that's a, uh, I love that way that that'd be my preference. Yeah. Just to put it on the record that, that, that's my preference. I think that's a great way of doing it. Um, and there's just so many things that you can, you can do, uh, when, when going above that. And then of course, the other part of about the gaps, which is an important part, which could help with where to set, you know, where they go forth, is the symposium. And, and so there's a symposium, uh, every year is that it's an annual symposium and there's gonna be one in 2025. Is that the, that's the idea, correct. It, it's been almost, almost annual. We've, we've had a few, uh, gaps Okay. Here and there. Yeah. But yes, there will be one in 2025.

33:10 It's called Ocean Floor Explorer. Okay. And it's in Victoria, British Columbia. Yeah. October 26th to the 29th. And it's being co-hosted, um, by Coast, which is, uh, a, a, a Blue Tech Innovator and uh, um, group here in Victoria, British Columbia. That helps companies. Get off the ground, and it's also forms a network of, uh, companies and individuals in the area. Interesting. Okay, cool. Now, when if, if people are interested in this topic and they want to go to the symposium, what, what would, what should they expect at the symposium? Uh, this year it falls into a few broad categories, and one is, uh, the challenges and the value of doing ocean floor exploration in the first place.

33:55 And so that is, that is a good question that people often ask is, well, why, yeah, why should we, and there's two sides to that answer. One, one of it is. Very practical, scientific, economic, uh, safety of life. You see all those, all those amazing reasons for why we should do it. Mm-hmm. And then the other one is a little, a little less quantitative and it's actually more qualitative. It's because it's earth and we've never done it. And so that's the emotional connection of we need to. Explore our own planet. We need to understand it in order to protect it. And in order to do that, we need to measure it. And none of that's been done.

34:35 So part of, part of the first portion of the conference is to talk about the value of it, the value of doing it, and the value of the data that is there. Mm-hmm. Right. I mentioned already about all the downstream, um, benefits that come from collecting this data. Another part of the conference is to talk about, well, how could we fund it? There are different models, certainly national governments. Um, put money into it. There's some high net worth individuals that have funded their own missions or others. Uh, there's other NGOs and nonprofits that are participating, certainly academia. So is there, are there other models or can we continue to explore those models?

35:18 One model of course is crowdsourcing it. Yeah. So crowd funding it. Really? Yeah. How do we get individuals? How does my mom Yeah. Participate. She's not going to, actually, my mom probably would go out on a ship, but you may not have the opportunity to go out on a ship. Right, right. Um, she's pretty adventurous. Uh, but, but she still wants to support it. So how do we connect again, how do we map that connection, that gap? How do we get regular people involved to participate? So that's part of the other. Piece of the conference. Mm-hmm. A third part is what technologies are required and what technologies are coming online. So it traditionally, especially in deep water, you need big ships, you need humans, you need expensive equipment.

36:06 It's a lot of data processing for a lot of data. And it takes a really long time. So that's the traditional, well, what else is available? What else do we need? Right? Right. Maybe this is a call to action to develop new technology, which is why young people coming, young engineers and inventors and scientists are so important to have, because young people often have the best imaginations, right? Oh, absolutely. And so part of the Tuesday morning on the. 28th will be to talk about technologies that are coming online, and I know Victor Vesco will be there. He's going to an announce or share more about his amazing, uh, innovations that he's been working on. We've also got artificial intelligence specialists who will be there, people who are making deep ocean, long, uh, range vehicles.

36:54 We've got shallower water, short range vehicles. Swarm technology and, and other sort of complimentary technologies that go along with all of that, even to process the data. And then in the afternoon of the 28th, we've got real technology. I'm not, the other stuff isn't real, but like hands-on, uh, what do you call it, like a show and tell almost down at the Coast Guard station where people will be able to see some of this stuff in action. Uh, see other complimentary technologies that maybe isn't related to bathymetry, but it's still related to the ocean, and that's an opportunity for the public and the media to come and really see this stuff. Yeah. And, and that's so important to, because it makes it tangible and makes it a little more, um, understandable than something that's abstract.

37:40 Absolutely. Absolutely. It, it looks like, uh, I mean, it looks like a lot of fun. It looks, it looks like a wide variety, not your typical, uh, symposium that you see with a lot of, uh, uh, tech. Uh, industry, uh, and I think this is, this is something that's really great. Looking at funding options. Look, it looks like it hits the gamut, like communications, funding, uh, the actual technology of it all. Uh, it, I, I really enjoy that aspect of, of putting it there and all in the landscape of an ocean background like Victoria, uh, in bc. It's just such a, such a perfect, uh, perfect place to put it. Um, uh, I love it. I love the aspect. Um, and I, I'm, and I'm glad that you mentioned communications because I, I meant to include that as well.

38:21 There is a whole session around communication. Yeah. 'cause that's, that's a challenge. Of, now that we understand maybe the value and, and the challenges and, and the practical approaches that we could take, but a big problem, a big, big challenge in this whole community is the communication piece. Mm-hmm. How do we reach. People like my mom, how do we reach policymakers? How do we reach perhaps wealthy people or mm-hmm. Hedge fund managers who have clients that wanna support and contribute to this. How do we reach those people? Uh, because the, the old method of mapping the ocean floor is really important. Isn't that effective? Sometimes I think we need some new and clever ways for how we can reach these people.

39:05 Yeah. And as someone who's into communications, I feel, you know, it's, it's really interesting because. When I look at comments, when I post certain, uh, videos or, or my po like, like the video podcast or audio podcast, and I see the comments, sometimes you don't, you don't expect what people who are not involved in oceans or conservation or exploration, they have a very different view of how things look at. A lot of it's like, what, how is it important to me? You know, a lot of it is, is is a personal thing, and so it's like how do you make mapping the deep sea? Personal to the people who are, who are there, who are watching it without putting it out of reach. 'cause I think a lot of people think like mapping something that, that deep is not gonna affect them in any kind of way in the future or anything in the deep sea is not gonna affect them in the future.

39:54 So I think that's the challenge is like, how do we make it personal to them? How do we make it as like, you want to be a part of this because of this without being threatening. You know? It's like if we don't map it, the world's gonna end. You know what I mean? Like they, because people just. I'm not gonna listen to that because I don't like, I don't want to hear that. But they want to know why it's important, you know? And I think, and I think that's valid and I think, but I think it's also the challenge because the, the direct, you know, function of mapping these areas is not gonna help them personally for the most part, other than maybe satisfying the need to, to get that information and to help other things in that process. So it's a matter, I think that's the challenge is trying to get them.

40:34 See it for themselves and how important it's, right. Well, one way that it makes it personal is, uh, there's two sides to this. Yeah. One is through the financial benefit. So if someone donates money to a nonprofit like MAP apps mm-hmm. Well, then they get a charitable tax. For sure credit for that. Yeah. Yeah. So for many people that matters, right? Yeah, absolutely. That because they want to donate something that's for a cause. Mm-hmm. Uh, that they support. So, so that's one aspect. So there's like a, a very tangible personal benefit or corporate benefit by donating to a nonprofit. Another benefit is that.

41:16 Mapping like this always needs to be done. There's always even in mm-hmm. Harbor, it's constantly being surveyed and resurveyed because the ocean floor is a dynamic environment. Yes. It's changing. However, that being said, it's never been done the first time. Yeah. And so we have to recognize that there, there is something about human nature where we want to explore the undiscovered. Mm-hmm. And the ocean floor. Remains undiscovered. Yeah. For the most part, over 70%. Yeah. So how do we get people, and I think people will want to be a part of it, and if they have their tiny little area that they say, I was involved with that, and there's the picture hanging on the wall behind me.

42:03 Mm-hmm. That shows that I was responsible for that, or I participated with. My third year university class or my, or my sixth grade class, or a group of neighbors and friends or a hedge fund that I was with that funded and supported the exploration of that piece of the ocean floor because once it's done, once we've done it once. We'll never be able to do it. Yeah. Again, in the same way. And so there's something finite about it. Yep. Like, like the little tickers that you see on the side of the YMCA, you know, with the, with the thermometer going up and up with each, uh, $5,000 donation that comes in until they reach their goal, we can do the same.

42:46 Yeah. So as we continue. To progress towards a hundred percent, then that's less opportunity for people to get involved. Yeah, agreed. I do think that's where the emotional connection comes in. Yeah. This idea of I'm part of the last great exploration on earth and it is the last one. Right, because we've done everything else. We've done all the land, we've done all the ice, and we've done lots of things, but we haven't done the oceans. And it's, there's a lot to do. There is a lot to do, no doubt in my mind. Uh, and, and it starts with, you know, following map the gaps, learning at the symposium. If you're interested in this kind of avenue, uh, whether you're involved within the, the mapping industry or the ocean industry.

43:32 Or you're, you're involved personally and you want to find out more. Uh, the symposium is October 27th to the 28th. That's correct. 20 October 27th, 26th to the 29th. 26th to the 29th. My apologies. October 26th to the 29th, uh, in Victoria, uh, bc Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh, this is, you know. I would love to invite you back, Tim, to talk more about mapping and getting into the details of what it's gonna look like to, to map these, uh, these areas and, and why it's so important. Uh, so I'd love to invite you back on to, to discuss more, uh, maybe in, in, in August, we'll have you on for, for another podcast, if that's okay with you. And, uh, it'll be a lot of fun to, to be able to explore more, uh, of the Deep Sea and to see what what there is to, to look out for.

44:16 So, uh, looking forward to having you back on if, uh, if you're willing, of course. Yeah. Great. Thanks, Andrew. It was, uh, it's been, it's been a pleasure to speak with you and of course I'd be, I, I would welcome the opportunity to come back. I'm always happy to talk about this stuff. Like, like anyone who's passionate about it, I have short things to talk about. Awesome. So if you're willing to have me, I'd, I'd love to come back and talk more about it, so thanks. Yeah, absolutely. We'll put the link, uh, for people to get more information on the symposium. It's at ocean floor explorer.org, but I'll put the link so that people can, uh, get access to it. Uh, and until next time, Tim, thank you so much for joining us. Great. Thanks Andrew. Bye for now. Thank you, Tim, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. It was great to be able to talk to you about Map the Gap, something that is very important to me as well.

45:00 Obviously important to you and should be important to you, the audience member. And I would love to hear what you thought about the interview, what you think about Map the Gaps. Is this something you'd be interested in participating in? Whether you can volunteer your time or whether you can donate a certain amount of money. To maybe like sponsoring a piece of an ocean that needs to be mapped. I would love to hear from you if you wanna DM me on Instagram at how to Protect the Ocean, I would love to hear if you would be interested in doing that. Or you can email me by going to speak up for blue.com/contact and just fill out the form. Email me. I would love to hear from you, but other than that. I would love for you to go to map the gaps.org. I'll put the link in the show notes to check out what MAP the gaps is all about.

45:43 And I would also like for you to go register for the Map the Gaps Symposium. If you go to map the gaps.org/symposium, you can click the registration button and you'll register there. Again, I will click that in the show notes or in the description below, depending on how you are watching or listening to this. But other than that, thank you again to Tim for joining us. We'll have him back on because I wanna talk more about Matthew gaps and why it's important to discuss. And link to the ocean bottom and making sure that we are mapping the ocean bottom. I'm looking forward to having him back. But in that, I wanna thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Angela, one from the true nor strong and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.