How US Climate Policy Affects Renewable Energy and Ocean Conservation

1:00:00 One of the things that's hard to put out is the entrepreneurial spirit. The entrepreneurial spirit of people who are getting into the renewable energy sector, the industry, who are trying to push forward renewable energy so we can depend less on fossil fuels and more on protecting the environment and still getting our energy needs. And that's what I was hoping to hear and I did hear in this interview with Chris Boyer today. We're talking about climate policy in the US, how it's changed over even the last few months compared to what it was over the last four years and the ups and downs of climate policy in the US in general and how that could affect and slow down renewable energy development in the US. We're going to talk about that on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1:00:44 Let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And when we talk about ocean conservation, we talk about climate change and we talk about climate policy and climate action. And to get action, you need to put forward good policy and you need to communicate that to a lot of people to ensure that that policy gets in place. And today's guest, Chris Moyer, who is the founder and CEO of Echo Communication Advisors is on the podcast today because he wants to talk to me about US climate policy, which is kind of a weird thing to talk about these days.

1:01:30 But I thought it was important for you to listen to what's happened over the last five months in terms of climate policy under the Trump administration and how that's changed since the Biden administration and of course, the first Trump administration and how that up and down is affecting the way policies developed at a federal level and how energy projects are being put on hold or just being canceled altogether and how that could affect climate policy and just the push for a renewable energy increase over the next 10 years, over the next 20 years and just into the future. So we talk a lot about what's happened recently. We talk a lot about the communications around that and how to get people motivated to talk to their local governmental officials and say, hey, you know what?

1:02:14 I like these projects. I think this will be good for my area. I want to talk about it because that's the one thing he highlights is not a lot of people come out yet. The fossil fuel industry is out there all the time talking against these projects and it actually works. So we're going to talk all about that on today's episode. Just before we do that, if you want to take action for the ocean, if you want to take action for climate, you can do so by joining the undertow. This is a new project that I've been working on. We're building an online community of wave makers and people and connectors who want to take action. We're looking for 10 million connections would take $5 million in action over the next five years. It's an ambitious goal, but we can't do it without you.

1:02:56 Join the undertow by going to speak up for blue.com forward slash join the undertow that speak up for blue.com forward slash join the undertow. We are going to put the links in the show notes and in the description. If you're watching this on YouTube, I want you to not only join, but listen to this interview to get motivated to say, hey, you know what? I want to help the ocean. I want to help climate change. Here's Chris Moyer talking about US ocean policy or US climate policy. Of course, that's ocean policy as well. Enjoy the interview and we'll talk to you after. Hey, Chris, welcome to the how to protect the ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about climate policy? Yes, I am. Great to be here, Andrew. Wonderful. I'm excited about this. I'm excited in a way because I want to know information about what's happening in the US in terms of climate policy.

1:03:41 I'm not excited in the way I may not like the answers to some of these questions or some of the questions that I ask, but I'm so happy to have you on here. You have your own business. We're going to talk a little bit about that. We're going to talk about the work that you do and where climate policy is at this point in time. Where has it come? Where it came from, you know, going out the ups and downs of really any country that we see, but especially in the US and especially these days with the second Trump administration coming in, causing a lot of chaos with the global climate policy. With environmental policy, especially climate change. So we're going to talk a lot about that. But before we do, Chris, why don't you just let the audience know who you are and what you do? Sir, and I have to say, be careful what you ask for.

1:04:23 You may not like the answers that unfortunately that's that's probably where it's going to be today. But but yeah, I am. I am about five years ago. I founded Echo Communications Advisors and we are a policy first strategic communications firm. We work exclusively with clean energy companies with climate tech startups that are doing really cool things to address climate change in all various ways. And we also work with advocacy organizations that are seeking to shape and make better climate policy in the United States. Love that. I have a lot of questions about that. But before I want to kind of go a little bit further back, how did you get into communications and climate?

1:05:05 Where did that come from? So the first thing ever did in politics and getting into policy was a communications internship with former Senator Ted Kennedy back coming up on 20 years now. And that really I was living in Boston, going to school there. And that really turned me on to the idea of going to Washington, D.C. and trying to get a job in the Senate. So I moved down to D.C. about 15 years or so ago and ended up getting a job with the United States senator, who was then the majority leader of the United States Senate guy named Harry Reid. The only catch was the job was in Las Vegas and not in Washington, D.C. Because the Senate, the senator was running for reelection.

1:05:47 So I was 22. I flew to Las Vegas to move there my first time ever. And I just remember getting that rental car, leaving the airport and driving up the strip with the flashing lights. And I was thinking, what did I get myself into? And but really, it was an education and climate and clean energy was a big part of it. I remember going to solar arrays all around the Las Vegas Valley, going to geothermal companies in northern Nevada and just really getting understanding of energy policy and climate and the efforts being done at the federal level. This was during the first Obama administration. And from there, I came back to D.C. after that election and worked for the senator in the U.S. Capitol and just really saw further how policy can make a difference to advance these industries, these nascent industries, these newer technologies that just need a little bit of federal government support.

1:06:43 Yeah. And then they kind of take off and that's happened throughout history with government support and helps them become mature industries that are now mainstays of our economy. You know, this is it's really interesting stuff because at that time when you were talking with all these different companies, these startups, a lot of these startups, the technology was new as well. Right. We were a lot of it was testing out. Hence why there was some government government funds being put in to test to make sure that this could actually work. It could be scalable and so forth. That is is an exciting time. What were your thoughts? Like, I guess maybe what captured you the most in terms of like what surprised you the most?

1:07:24 Like, oh, I didn't know we could do this. I didn't even like think about this. Like, what was the most interesting tech that you saw at that time? Well, I didn't see too many back 15 years ago. I didn't see too many different technologies per se, but I think, you know, someone who grew up in the Northeast, I knew nothing about geothermal. Right. Because we just really don't don't have it in a in a serious way. Yeah. Traditional geothermal is limited to the Western United States and, you know, Iceland and other parts of the world, but not certainly where I grew up. And so learning about that technology, frankly, was eye opening. And now there's all sorts of advanced geothermal technology and really cool stuff where you're not limited.

1:08:06 It can, you know, it's on the path to being able to you can have geothermal anywhere because if you go deep enough, you will get heat. It's just it's just it can be really expensive to to go the deeper you go. And so bring down the cost curve to make geothermal a part of the clean energy transition and the energy mix that powers all the energy needs that we have. So so that was interesting to me. I also think, you know, 15 years ago, Tesla was a struggling company. Yeah. And they they got funding from the U.S. government, from the Department of Energy. And that was a really critical source of help for that company to that. Who knows where they'd be if it wasn't for that support.

1:08:48 So, you know, that's relevant to some of the discussions we'll get into in a moment about federal policy and the role of federal government in supporting different sectors of the energy industry. Yeah, absolutely. So what, like, you know, during this time when you're with the senator and you probably moved into different positions within within politics. But then, you know, obviously, communication is a big part of your role within that that time. At what point did you say, OK, like, did you get the idea, you know, having a consulting firm or a communications firm where you, you know, partnered with these companies or work for these companies as well as advocacy groups to say, hey, I want to push this, you know, they need a little bit more help.

1:09:31 They need to. Was it because they needed more help? Was it they needed to clarify their message? What pushed you towards starting this company a few years ago? Yeah, so you're right. Like I did other campaigns. I worked on presidential campaigns and Senate and gubernatorial. And I also have done some work with state attorneys general, which they're the top law enforcement officer in each state. And they play, you know, especially during the first Trump administration. This is what I was working with this group that was coordinating a lot of the efforts that was really they were filing lawsuits left and right. Not because they're frivolous, but there was so much to go after from the federal government. So they were they're trying to stop rollbacks of really important regulations and policies on the environment, on energy, on climate.

1:10:18 And so that was a great insight into kind of the, you know, they were the last line of defense at that point. And so, you know, when I started my firm, I, you know, communications and messaging can really make the difference between successful policy or successful grants funding from the government or another entity. How you frame and talk about things can really make or break success that you have as a business. And, you know, we need these businesses to be successful for the clean energy transition. So the communications piece is really important. You know, when people think about lobbying as well. It's not just like the old fashioned shoe leather lobbying that you go meet with the senator and then they're going to hopefully do what you want them to do.

1:11:01 Communications has become a greater part of that overall strategy. You have to be attuned to what are the outlets, the news outlets they're consuming back in the home state or their home district. How do you find the right messengers and get them to give, you know, share the right message at the right time so they can have the maximum influence. And that takes a lot of strategy and thoughtfulness. And so that's how we work with a lot of our clients to help them, you know, get better policy so that they can grow and be successful and contribute to the energy transition. For from a policy perspective and clean energy. What are the biggest challenges over the last like 10 years for that for clean energy to move forward to scale up in the face of policy like what like was there a particular policy that really allowed them to happen or was a particular policy that has really challenged them.

1:11:56 Let's say before this administration that came in. Well, it's it's pretty clear in 2022 the most significant law ever passed in the United States on climate and clean energy was called the inflation reduction act. And that is really that was really a law that set industrial policy for the United States in a way that it never had before. And it provided a number of tax credits. It provided something called transferability that helps with smaller companies that are growing and bigger. You know, it's a great, helpful system. It's it brought manufacturing back to the United States. It's it provided more secure supply chains back in the United States, not being reliant on on other countries, especially, you know, are more adversarial countries.

1:12:43 And I don't include Canada in that, to be clear. Thank you. But this was this was the policy set forth back in, you know, it was passed in August of 2022. So we're coming up on three years. And, you know, you speak to the challenge, making that resonate with voters across the country before a lot of the benefits became clear. You know, there are jobs that are being created right now. There are factories being built. There are there's tax revenue being generated in rural parts of this country that haven't had major industry in decades. And, you know, because of the way the election went in in November, all of that is at risk right now.

1:13:26 Which is interesting because I think, you know, the inflation act brought in all of that and allowed for these supply chains to come to the US allowed for manufacturing to come to the US. Yet this administration is talking about how tariffs are going to bring all of that as a scare tactic to everybody to doing that, which is kind of funny because that all went on. That messaging didn't get out. I wish I wish more more organizations and political parties. Contact you guys to kind of highlight that because, you know, it feels as though we would have been in a different position because obviously messaging and communications, as you know, is very important. And, you know, there's a big difference in the messaging, you know, for this this last election, which won't get into too much because I don't want to.

1:14:12 I want to focus on climate policy. But, you know, from your perspective as as as a communications person, especially when it comes to clean energy, especially when it comes to making sure that the right policy get in place and and working towards those policies, it becomes a really it must become a real source spot for you to see the wrong information get out and people believing it and not picking it up when it's right right there in front of them. Like what what is that? Like, where did that? How come that always gets buried? Climate and clean energy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just it's very hard to to break through, especially in a campaign against Donald Trump, who, you know, love him or hate him. He knows how to get attention.

1:15:01 Yeah. And attention is current currency in this day and age or such a fragmented media environment and other distractions that are, you know, everywhere for people. And so, you know, talking about jobs that are coming and a clean energy economy that is happening, but still coming is it's harder to break through and get attention on that. And and so, you know, driving home the real tangible benefits of of that legislation that I was mentioning, you know, perhaps could have been done a little bit better. And, you know, making sure it resonates with people in a way that they care about.

1:15:41 And, you know, too often, I think bigger picture here, you know, climate change doesn't feel real. Right. People, it feels like it's often to the even though there's still people who can't get insurance anymore because there's too much risk or their premiums are so high. And we know about the storms being more intense and more frequent. But, you know, that that still doesn't move the needle in terms of public opinion to the extent that we need it to. And so if you're talking about the treacherous consequences of half degree increase in global temperature, that really doesn't resonate. It feels so esoteric to people. And so trying to put it in terms of this is not really climate change.

1:16:22 This is economics. It's an industry that, you know, it's a good job. Doesn't matter what party you belong to or your political beliefs. And so, you know, unfortunately, if we had a few more years for these things to mature and blossom from the legislation from the law I was mentioning, then it would be harder to get rid of it. But we're at a point where it's still not quite at that moment or instilled enough in these communities yet. It's really interesting you bring that up too, because, you know, as you were mentioning, just the messaging around the benefits from the Affordable Care Act or the the the Inflation Reduction Act.

1:17:03 We had the same thing in Canada, you know, as you probably heard the carbon tax, you know, as soon as you put in the word tax, nobody likes it. It sucks. Nobody wants to pay. We had a consumer tax. So everybody who, you know, paid for gas or whatever that might be, that another carbon tax went on top of that. And that was like the federal policy wasn't necessarily provincial policy. The province didn't have a carbon tax or a plan for that. The federal plan would kick in the messaging around. There was a lot of there were a lot of benefits to the carbon tax for us. You know, a lot of people went over to heat pumps and a lot of people moved over to an environment like EVs and so forth. But it wasn't it wasn't communicated properly by the federal government and they could have done a better job.

1:17:44 And maybe they're waiting for the provinces to do it because it's technically a problem, a provincial plan. But regardless of what happened, it got it got out of hand. And of course, the opposition is just like ax the tax. The tax is causing inflation. The tax is causing all your problems. You can't afford groceries because of the carbon. The messaging and negative just kind of like what Trump had done in the US with climate change and so forth. They're getting more attention. The negativity is bringing more attention. And the and the policy is not being communicated properly. And the benefits of those policies are not getting communicated properly, which is frustrating for me because I was kept telling my mobile represented. I'm like, you guys got to talk about the benefits. Like, where is it?

1:18:25 Like, it's so complicated. Like, why can't you talk about it? But then on the other hand, like it when the when it ended, like we were in it for a good. Almost nine years. And there were a lot of benefits that still have come out from it. But when you when you mentioned the word tax or climate change or carbon tax, people are just like it's divided, you know, you either love it or you hate it. It's black and white. And that's it. There's no gray area. There's no meeting in the middle. I've talked to politicians before, local politicians, and they say when they engage with their, you know, communities, they don't necessarily use the word climate change.

1:19:05 They'll use the words like flooding or fires that affect your homes and things like that. Is the messaging changing from getting away from those politically triggered words to more of less you as you mentioned, bring it more local, bring it more personal and how it affects you no insurance, that kind of stuff. It absolutely has changed in the last several months here since the Trump Trump Trump second term started. The main phrase we're hearing a lot of from climate focused entities is energy dominance. And that's that's a phrase that the president has used a lot.

1:19:45 And a lot of people try to play into that. I think things that you don't hear anymore are climate change, emissions reduction, climate justice, you know, things that were very much talked about in the previous administration. But those are great way to get your project or your idea, your bill just shelved. And so I think, you know, it's a balancing act. It is wise to adapt your messaging, even if the work you're actually doing isn't changing, because at the end of the day, what do we care about? Do we care about feeling feeling good about what we're doing and saying what we want to say? Or do we want to get do we want to get the results that we're trying to achieve?

1:20:26 And do we have to maybe change the path to get there? We're not compromising our values or what we're working on, but it's just, okay, how do we be a little more strategic and trying to reach that same outcome that we're always been aiming for? Yeah, I love that. I think that's I think that is a path forward because it takes away from any kind of like, like I said, triggering words or any kind of strife with with the audience and trying to unite people just be like, look, we're all going through these problems. Let's try and let's try and figure out a way around it. And hopefully that will that will help in that kind of way. We're in the second term of Donald Trump as president.

1:21:08 I know it's hard thing to say, hard thing to hear, but this is the second one. What was the difference? You worked in the first one in a variety of different capacities. But, you know, you've you've been following climate for a long time and climate policy for a long time. What's the difference between the first term and the second term, given that there were four years in between? And I'm sure you didn't mean to imply this, but just to be absolutely clear, did not work in the first Trump administration. Oh, yes. No, my apologies. You worked in the climate industry like that. While he was president. My apologies. Was in the whirlwind. No, I just I knew that's not what you meant, but I'm sure your listeners can discern that that was not the case.

1:21:48 But I just appreciate that crystal crystal clear some agree agree. You know, I think the first time felt like nobody knew what they were doing in the Trump administration. They had all these things they were trying to do, but they were very sloppy about it. They tried to they didn't follow the proper steps to repeal regulations, for example. And they lost a lot of lawsuits and couldn't get what they wanted because of that procedural concern this time around. You know, from day one, they've been on top of it. They learned from some of their mistakes from the first time. And, you know, we experienced just a period of it felt I don't know how long it was. I try to not think too much of that period, but it was just chaos.

1:22:32 They were throwing everything against the wall and they they were they're urging course to tell them to tell them no. They were laying off people. They were repealing as much as they could. They were doing as much as they could with executive order, not worrying about any other branch of government. They they they had an agenda and a plan coming in and they wasted no time to try to execute it. And in some ways, it's actually admirable as a as a use of power and trying to achieve what you want to achieve. But obviously the substance of all these things was very concerning. Yeah. And still is there's been, you know, it slowed down a little bit because the courts have put on some guardrails up.

1:23:14 Not not entirely, but some. And and now, as the focus has really shifted from what the president can do on his own to what he needs Congress, even though his party controls Congress, there's still different ideas on what to do. And so that process is less clean. And so that takes a little bit of time. And we've gotten to the point in the first term here, sorry, the first year of the second term where they have to hash out some of these different ideas and the details. You know, the devil is always in the details and they're at that point. They're at that point in negotiations. And I don't I couldn't tell you that Trump actually knows any of the details. But he but he just won. He just wants a bill.

1:23:56 And and so the you know, his colleagues, the Republican leaders in the in Congress are working through that at the moment. So it's been about five months now, almost five months. And there's been a lot that's been done. There's been a lot that's been reported on. But it's it has been a whirlwind, but it does feel like it's slowed down a little bit. But it was a torrent start. Right. And during that time, you know, I know he he he pulled the U.S. out of the Paris Accord, the climate change accord. What else was done in terms of climate change that had a pretty significant effect on other acts that came through the inflation reduction act and so forth?

1:24:44 Well, the first one that comes to mind is he declared an energy emergency, right? Even though it's not sure what that's based on. But that gives him the ability to do certain things to prop up fossil fuels. And it's it doesn't really square that he's on the one hand saying it's it's an energy emergency. And we need all energy sources or we know as much energy as possible because it's emergency. But then then he's killing offshore wind and projects, including one that was fully permitted and they were they were they were building already or they just started that that's since been reversed.

1:25:26 But, you know, he's saying he's pretty much mandating for coal plants to stay open, even if they're not financially sustainable. So it's unclear how exactly that will work. You know, there's there's programs that were part of the inflation reduction act, the bill that I mentioned from 2022 contracts that have been signed with, you know, there's this Green Bank program that a lot of other countries have done successfully. It's a way of lending to allow some of these really important projects to go forward. And the last administration had put a significant amount of federal dollars to this. And these grantees had signed contracts. But the Trump administration came in and said, actually, we're going to we're canceling that.

1:26:11 And so they're they're in the midst of litigation. And it's really slowed down some of these projects that had been announced already all across the country. And, you know, we don't have time to go through every executive order related to climate and energy in this conversation. But there's a long list and they're they're not missing any opportunity to go after something that someone in the community values. It's really odd. I mean, it's it's it's odd from a common sense point of view when you look at it from the outside, if you're declaring an emergency, an energy emergency, that you're going to kill off one form of energy and prop up another. So it's you know, it's very hypocritical to say we're going to prop up the fossil fuel side, but we're going to kill the green side, you know, the renewable energy side, even though that was well on its way.

1:27:01 And maybe some of those projects had already started. Maybe some of them haven't. But that's a very frustrating fact of not growing energy together and balancing the two. And at some point, I mean, the hope is for the world. And I know in Canada, the hope is to, you know, right now, you know, green energy may be a little lower than fossil fuels. But as that grows, a fossil fuel will go down maybe to like 20 to 30 percent of total energy. And I feel like that's what the world is trying to go towards when we keep hitting these balances, depending on who's who's in charge. But it's really weird when you know, like you said, you declared an emergent, an emergent, an energy emergency. And then all of a sudden, you're like, well, I'm going to kill off one this these projects that will help our energy. And I'm going to prop up the other one. It just goes like it for to me, it just looks like, okay, somebody's in your back, like you're in somebody's back pocket.

1:27:51 And it's the fossil fuel industry. And they just want the domination of of energy, right? That's right. And they I mean, let's look at EVs, for example, that was another thing where they're there. They halted the rollout of the EV charging stations all across the country. There is there is money set aside for that. That's really critical for the adoption of EVs. They're trying to kill the $7500 tax credit for EVs that, again, makes some of these cars more affordable as we get, you know, from a less mature market into a more mature market for EVs. Meanwhile, China is is dominating that industry right now with BYD and and so there's just a lot of things that don't comport. Let me give you another example.

1:28:39 Energy demand is growing for the first time in decades and it's it's largely due to electrification, including a vehicle's but also AI and data centers. You hear about that a lot. Yeah, and Bitcoin crypto mining. And and so there's a ton of energy demands that can't it won't be met. It's not keeping up at this point. And so that's why you need all the energy sources. And so, you know, the president has made clear he wants to win the AI race, but you're undermining that goal when you're cutting off. You're not, you know, they used to say all of the above. Now they're saying fossil fuel only and maybe nuclear.

1:29:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And and I mean, it's always I mean, nuclear is always controversial for the for the, you know, a lot of people. I know why, you know, we have nuclear energy here and it's controversial here. It provides a lot of energy, but it's also if something goes wrong, we're all screwed, like for a long, like Chernobyl screwed and and that's a that's a big deal. There's a lot like even in these what five months that the Trump administration has been in power pretty much carte blanche of being able to what being able to do what we do. And as you mentioned, it's just really difficult to go through every single executive order that undermines anything around around climate action.

1:30:04 In the next three and a half years, at least, I guess, what's the plan? Like, what are all of like, you know, clients and and that you have and the industry, the clean energy industry. How are they going to react to this? And how are they going to push forward to do the work that they want to do without the help of the federal government? Can they? And what's the plan? I think there's you have to look for what we advise with our clients is you have to find the small slivers of opportunity. You know, there's just kind of a reality shock to the system when you realize that it's such a change from where we were with the last administration. And so you just have to adjust kind of what the reality and to the new reality. And there are some opportunities. I was talking to a couple of people who are in the industry. And so, is there a way to make some progress with advanced geothermal make that bigger slice of the energy supply? You know, you also look to the states you want to find places where you can make progress with the new reality. And so, you know, I think that's a really good thing.

1:31:22 But the one bigger thing that I would say is that even with the success to to a large extent with the legislation from a few years ago, the thing that still held up further deployment of clean energy was permitting challenges. It takes way too long to make progress with the state. And you have local communities, city councils, town, you know, county commissions voting to kill these projects because they have 3 people show up with oil and gas talking points about why solar array is bad. And so there needs to be more engagement at a local level from from people who just regular people in these communities who support these projects because they understand the benefits and not just falling prey to the talking points from the oil and gas industry.

1:32:08 But there's an effort in the federal government to do some sort of permitting reform that can make things a little bit more efficient. It's not, you know, it still protects the environment but understands that there's, you know, who's going to invest in a project that takes 17 years to actually get it from start to finish. It's just no one can see no one can think that's a good idea. And so that's the last it's kind of like the last mile challenge once you have we did have good. It's still in place. So I won't say it's gone yet, but we have good policy in place. And the last step there is to actually get it deployed and up and running and we need that we need it to be in service.

1:32:48 Let me ask you this because you we talk a lot about times regulation gets in the way and and you know fossil fuel industries will talk about regulation getting in the way and then clean energy as you mentioned gets in the way for it seems for different reasons. So can you clarify this for me? So in Canada anyway, and probably us, you know, when fossil fuels complain about policy getting in the way. It's usually environmental policy, right? It's usually have to do with drilling in the ocean. And the regulations around that, you know, drilling on land and the regulations around that coal burning and so forth. And the regulations on that is the green energy industry finding that the regulations are the environmental regulations are also slowing those down.

1:33:36 Well, I think I think the thing that slows it down is if you have to do four different environmental reviews, it's like, why can't these different layers of government just get on the same page? Maybe you do maybe do one environmental review. I don't know, make that thorough. Right, right. You know, you don't want to disrupt sensitive habitats. You don't want it. You know, you need to be mindful of these things. But again, doing it in a in a common sense way. And, you know, it just has to be more efficient. That's frankly, yeah, comes down comes down to you don't need three agencies doing their own study. And that's an interesting thing to guys it is it three agencies of the same level of government or is it three agencies of different levels of government?

1:34:21 Because I assume if it's different levels of government, maybe those were put into place because like one level was a different party and then another level was a different party and they were worried that they were going to contradict each other or that it was better to contradict each other because one had more power of a certain area. You know how they play those types of games? Yeah, well, sometimes it's multiple at the federal level and sometimes it's it's it's multiple the federal level and at the state or yeah, probably the state level but so it can be all of those or any of those. Yeah, yeah, it's funny too because like one example from Canada that comes to mind there was in the Georgia Strait there was supposed to be a marine protected area that was supposed to be a marine protected area. And so it was supposed to be designated but it got held up for years because two departments of the federal government could not agree on who owns the rights to the the the sediment of at the bottom of the ocean and the water column. So they didn't agree on it and but they were the same, you know, government was the same party just two different departments couldn't agree on the same thing putting in a marine protected area because one owned that one was responsible for the sediment in the bottom and the other one was responsible for the the.

1:35:29 The water column and I'm sure one was like, oh, no, we want to drill is natural resource Canada and it's it. So this happens a lot, you know, I think it's and you're right. I think it from a common sense point of view should just be one environmental impact assessment, whatever they want to call it, make it super thorough, cover all basis and that's what it should be and never be able to take it out. You know what I mean? I never be able to remove it, right? One of the important things and the discussions there was almost a deal on permitting reform at the end of the last Congress. So back in December and they couldn't quite get the final language right in time. But one of the important things to include that include in permitting reform is transmission. And, you know, we could have all these projects built even I should say the last I said the last mile was getting the bill last miles actually getting them hooked up to the grid. Right?

1:36:15 You can't. Okay. If you're stuck in the in the queue for years. And it's something like 90% of projects stuck in the queue or clean energy projects. If you can't do that, then they're just sitting there and they're not they're not putting electrons on the grid and we need all those electrons on the grid and especially the clean ones. Yeah. So if there is a way to get a bipartisan permitting reform bill that has the transmission piece and I think there could be a lot of support for that in Congress and that the president would probably sign something with that nature. Yeah. Now, you know, we talked a lot about and we're focusing a lot about federal policy right now, but some of the some of the strategies now is a lot of environmental and advocacy organizations are looking at state level, especially states who are looking to improve their environment, who are looking to improve their environment.

1:37:04 Who are looking to shore up their protections and regulations on environment. Now, one example that I've heard that was recently that was really interesting is the green energy industry is booming in a Republican dominated Texas and they a lot of them had moved from California because of regulations into Texas because there were less that regulations to the chagrin of some Republicans apparently because they're like, wait, hold on a second. The green energy is coming in. We got to put in more regulations, but they kind of did it to themselves because they wanted energy, less energy regulations. And now there's a booming industry in clean energy. Are there ways that the clean energy industry is looking at these types of states that have less policy to implement green energy at the state level?

1:37:50 Well, when you look at, you know, it's funny you mentioned Texas. They were they were debating, considering some really bad legislation that would have I think one of them would have required that I think it was 50 percent of new generation had to be dispatchable. So basically had to be natural gas or they forced renewable energy projects to pay fees to the gas company. So thankfully that didn't go through. But, you know, Texas kind of does its own thing and every sense of every sense and certainly their other own grid or right. And and but wind is thriving their solar. It's like a lot of deals with landowners that benefit from from those projects and they have some of the largest some of the most supply of energy of clean energy in the country.

1:38:43 And so they're not a surprise given the political makeup, but but yeah, they're they're they're Republican. There's a lot of Republican states that actually do enjoy wind energy and it's a critical part of their their energy sources. Energy makeup like looking at a state like Iowa, very Republican state, North Dakota, both Dakotas. There's some sort of chasm between onshore and offshore wind, but it's like I lost my train of thought here. No worries. No worries. Well, it's interesting, though, you mentioned because, you know, even within like ocean and land when like like I can drive along the states and I've driven in many of the states and I see like on like onshore wind.

1:39:35 I see on land that you see the big windmills. We see it here in in Ontario because we have like a big wind area, you know, migratory birds and so forth. But offshore wind seems to get a lot of flak. Like, you know, from some some environmental concerns in terms of of seabirds and what the what the environmental ramifications are going to be of having an actual like physical body in there in on the seabed. But not as much, you know, as as like oil and gas and so forth because of spills and and and the damage. But the Republicans lately have been been like, yeah, offshore wind is no good.

1:40:16 Like, even before Trump got in, a lot of the Republicans were like, no, we need to get this. Like, we're concerned about the whales all of a sudden. They're concerned about the whales and so forth. Yet they're, you know, obviously the hypocrisy is crazy, but they're they're obviously concerned about the whales all of a sudden. And that is crazy to me to have like that dichotomy between land and and offshore. Where is that coming from? Why is it so worrisome to have offshore wind for a lot of people? You know, I I hate to simplify it this much, but I think it unfortunately comes down to the fact that the president just does not like wind. And I think the source of that might have something to do with, you know, a project in and might even off the coast of Scotland that he was building.

1:41:02 Oh, right. And there is some controversy around maybe some some wind. One of his golf courses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of his resource he was he was building or I'm not up to date on all the details, but that's been cited as maybe the origin of his his hatred for wind. And then he goes on to say things like it causes cancer and all these absurd claims. So, you know, there are some Republicans in the, you know, in Congress that are supportive of wind, but it's a challenging. I mean, the toughest place to be right now is in the offshore wind industry in the United States. It's just very difficult to see a path forward in the next few years. So I feel for folks dealing with that challenge at this point, because it's not even based on logic or sound policy considerations.

1:41:57 It's just based on the president's personal dislike for for windbills. So it's it's it's I'm not sure how you can move him from that position. Right. All these things are happening. You know, the the changing of the guard, so to speak, in terms of Republican and Democrat presidential races. And now that we have a Republican dominated house, you know, and, you know, from 2016 to 2020 as Republicans and Democrats, then the Republicans again, it slows down the movement of clean energy development. What are the consequences of that for the future? You know, like we're looking at another four years of slowing down, even halting projects.

1:42:42 Like how how worrisome is this? Like how worry should be like should the American citizens be about, you know, this slowdown? Like I feel it's there's always going to be a push and green energy is going in renewable energy is going to build no matter what. This is just going to slow it down a little bit. But what are the consequences and what should should Americans be concerned about? Well, businesses and project funders think not in terms of a four year political cycle, but in a much longer business cycle. And they're going to build where they can have favorable policy and more certainty. And the swinging back and forth is politically is very challenging to count on anything. And, you know, I agree with you. The development with clean energy is going to continue. Maybe not as quickly as we would like it to because of some of the political setbacks.

1:43:37 But if it's not the United States, they're going to go to these these folks are smart and they're capable and they don't want to sit back. There's a real urgency with with them. And so they're going to go to other countries. They're going to go to maybe Canada. They're going to go to places in Europe. They're going to go to places in Asia, other places around the world. They're going to let them build and give them give them the room to grow. And it would be really unfortunate that innovation that historically has happened to the United States, you know, left left our shores and went elsewhere because it will put the United States at a disadvantage. Again, it doesn't it doesn't fit with what the president says is his goal is to be winning all these.

1:44:20 I mentioned the AI race, but it's to be winning all in all these industries. You don't want to seed ground to China, to other countries. You want to be building that industry here. And so it's hard to square those those two things. Yeah, it's definitely interesting. You mentioned earlier about, you know, informing and getting more people locally to speak up for renewable energy in their areas, whether that's at the state level, whether that's at the county level or even at the local level. From you, like, you know, a comms guy, you know, having a comms firm is the messaging now targeted at the general public in specific areas where there's opportunities to shift the mindset of the of local government or county governments or state governments to say, hey, look, you know, people actually want this.

1:45:18 And so it's more of renewable energy literacy, as we would do in ocean literacy is like build up that ocean literacy so people understand what's possible and how their communities can be helped. I think that's right, Andrew. I think there's there's some great people out there doing work that's very focused on this very challenge. And there's one group I'll mention called Green Light America, which has like this alert system so they can see whenever there's a project on the docket, being considered by a local government and then they can get into that community, talk to and they have organizers that can talk to people who live there because the people, the local elected officials don't care about people coming from Washington, D.C.

1:46:01 They care about people in their community and speaking in favor of these projects and it's kind of starting to trying to get over this this nimbyism problem that people don't want things built, even if they in theory agree with it would agree with the idea. And so, you know, and getting that messaging right, talking about all the benefits and not just letting the oil and gas talking points win the day because if one one person shows up saying they don't like the project and we're losing by forfeit because no one else shows up from our side. You know, if you're a local elected official, you're going to listen to the person who came and showed up and there has to be a counter to that and hopefully more than just a counter but an overwhelming sense that we want this.

1:46:46 And that's the challenge that we have to solve for right now. And one of the challenge, one of the challenges, there's a lot of challenges. Well, and how do you motivate people to change that behavior? Because, you know, you get people in your local communities who will complain about whatever, right? And even say like, yeah, I'd love to see when you know my energy, but it's not going to happen. You know, there's too many things going about it. How do you motivate people to change behavior, which is so hard, like from what I learned is to change people's behavior around a specific topic. But in this case, to motivate them to go to a meeting or go to a public meeting to say, Hey, look, I want this. We should be considering this and talking to their local officials. How do you motivate that from a comms perspective?

1:47:28 Well, I'd say generally speaking, the biggest, the most effective way to motivate people is if they feel like they have something to lose. And that's not always applicable here. Right. But you do have to put it into terms that matter. It's not big, bigger picture, helping climate change. Some people will be motivated by that, which is great. But a lot of people need to know, well, my, you know, my electric bill could go down or, you know, we're going to have cleaner air in our community for our kids and for everybody. Or, you know, if we're shutting down a coal plants, that's, that's, you know, you can kind of tell, yeah, pretty tangible. Yeah. So it is finding those tangible benefits that if the project doesn't go through that they're going to miss out on.

1:48:15 Yeah, that's really, really interesting. What are some of the other you mentioned just really quickly that there are so many challenges. Can you talk about like another major challenge that people are that that we're seeing with with trying to push people to a new level? You know, green energy and renewable energy forward. You mean I have I haven't given you enough challenges yet. You should come to Washington and spend a few days here. There's lots of challenges. No, we've discussed a lot of is there anything that the people should know about that they may not, they may not be aware of. You know, there's there's a lot of headlines and I don't I imagine you all were seeing these two, but the firing of federal staffers.

1:48:55 Yeah, you know, entire departments and agencies for science out the window. We're not even tracking greenhouse gas emissions in the same way. And if you can't track or measure something, how are you going to adjust and do things differently? You know, but also some of the areas that like maybe a permitting reform, for example, you need federal government workers and some of these agencies to actually do that work. And, you know, we talk about speeding things up. But if you can't even get the people to do the environmental review because there's no staff, it's going to take longer. So it just flies in the face of the stated goals of this administration.

1:49:36 So, yeah, those are some other challenges. I think the biggest and this is coming back to the communications world that I think about quite a bit. It's just the misinformation and the eco, the ecosystem for opponents of what we're of what we do is a machine. And it's very, very hard to compete and counter that. And so that's something that I mean, our team is always trying to think about how do we how do we push back against that and make sure to get the facts out there? And so, you know, too much of what is decided in Washington these days is not about facts, but just about pure politics and loyalty to one person and the the, you know, the robust debates about the benefits and shortcomings of certain policies.

1:50:30 It just doesn't really have the same impact. It doesn't really happen to the same extent. For sure. I know it's a tough time for climate policy and communications. What is your hopeful moment that you have, you know, in the next little bit? Like, what what do you hope for? And what is your sort of light at the end of the tunnel in this in this dark time? I think I mentioned all these challenges. But when I think of the the climate tech entrepreneurs who they don't let a challenge stop them, like they are they see a challenge and they're inspired and excited, trying to figure out how to overcome it.

1:51:11 And, you know, if you look at all these climate tech companies, the the ways they're trying to address climate change, the it ranges. It's all over the map and there's thousands of them. And I think I'm inspired by, you know, some of those are going to end up being real significant players in this in this ecosystem over the years to come. And I just, you know, they're going to continue doing what they're going to do, regardless of what politics in D.C. is dictating. Right. And that, that to me is where there's hope and, you know, they if they can overcome this period and then imagine when there's actually favorable policies in place, how that can help supercharge even further. So it's OK. Make as much progress as we can in these next three and a half years.

1:51:55 Stop as much bad stuff as we can in this time period. Yeah. And then, you know, try to, you know, try to be in a place come 2029, which feels so far from now, being a place where we can actually go on offense and make the progress that I'd say most people agree with. Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. I love to end the interview on this. Chris, thank you so much for that hopeful moment and to inform us all about what's happening in the U.S. with climate policy. And we appreciate the work that you do and all the all of your clients do to kind of continue to push the envelope in making renewable energy more accessible, you know, pushing policy to make less regulation so we can get it even further down the road.

1:52:42 Really appreciate that. Learning a lot. Love to invite you back to talk more. Hopefully, good, more good news later on as we as we get closer to 2029. But I definitely appreciate all the work you're doing. Thank you so much. Great to be on with you, Andrew. Enjoy the conversation. Appreciate it. Thank you, Chris, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to be able to talk about U.S. policy, even though it's a grim time. It's a dark time in U.S. climate policy, but there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And that's that entrepreneurial spirit. People want renewable energy. People have this mission to bring renewable energy, not only to the U.S., but to the world. And it's growing and growing and growing, even though the fossil fuel industry doesn't want to have that competition. They're not going to be able to get around it. People want it.

1:53:23 If you look around your local town, you look around your city, you look around your state, you're seeing more changes happen for renewable energy projects. You're seeing more EVs. You're seeing more hydro projects. You're seeing more solar projects. You're seeing more wind projects and even tidal projects. If you live along the coastline, there's a lot of projects that are going on. Not fast enough. And a lot of times the holdup has nothing to do with environmental problems or regulations. It has to do with other regulations that are put in place to slow down green energy, especially even if you're allowed to do it and you have these Republicans or you have these conservatives who are trying to halt it for some reason. For example, Donald Trump calling an energy emergency yet canceling energy projects that renewable projects that will actually increase energy production in the U.S. So there's a lot of hypocrisy around it, but it doesn't get handled unless you fight for it, unless you talk to your local representatives, unless you take the talking points and understand the talking points that are coming from places like the ECHO Communication Advisors at Chris owns and the organizations that are involved in advocacy groups that are involved in pushing climate policy.

1:54:29 So that we have a more balanced and more renewable energy progress in climate policy. So hopefully we'll get to there sometime soon, but it comes with you. You know, you can listen to these podcasts. You can talk to your local government officials and you can join the undertow at speak up for blue.com forward slash join the undertow. I'm going to share the ways to connect with Chris and his company and to learn more about climate policy in the U.S. If you look at the show notes, you'll be able to find that. But don't forget to join the undertow. I want to thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the how to protect the podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the true North strong and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time. And happy conservation.