How McKnsea Balances Her Marine Career and Content Creation to Inspire Ocean Advocacy

1:00:00 A few episodes ago, I talked about ocean conservation careers and how important it was to understand that there are certain decisions in your life that will be difficult at that time, but will change the course of your career. And I wanted to get a couple of people on to show examples of that. And I did that last time with Kenzie Horton, who talked about being a science communicator and working in a job where she's a fisheries biologist, and then she ends up doing a master's afterwards and making those decisions that went into dedicating herself to doing a full time job and a master's at the same time on two different subjects. But that makes her life more difficult. It makes her life a lot busier, but she does it because she loves it. And she made that hard decision and it ends up working out for her. Today on the podcast, I have another guest who's very similar in these types of decisions that she made to be able to say, hey, what the decision I made, I'm actually looking forward to, because it's led me down this really cool path. That is Mackenzie, Margaret, she is on the podcast today. She is on the podcast today. She's a she is on the podcast today. She is known as Mackenzie on TikTok and on Instagram.

1:01:01 She's got a website out, all those links in the show notes. But I want you to hear this interview because it's a lot of fun to be able to see someone who makes decisions based on a lot of different factors in their lives. And it's turning out to look pretty good for them, no matter which path they take. So it's always great to hear from those. And I know we're all going through the same thing. So I want to talk about it on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start the show. Hey, everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. This is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you could speak up for the ocean and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And on today's episode, we have a great one for you. We have Mackenzie Margaret, who's on the podcast. He's been on my bucket list for a while for having to be a guest on the podcast. I have this list, this ever surprising list. I come across people, I follow them, I listen to them, I become fans of them. I try and get them on the podcast. And a lot of times they're busy because they're doing so much. The people that we all follow, the people that we see on social media, the people that we see writing a bunch of papers or doing some really incredible things on TV or even on the podcast, they're doing a lot of things.

1:02:05 And so they tend to be pretty busy and so they tend not to have a ton of time available. And so I was really, I'm always so grateful when people like Mackenzie and Kenzie last time were able to make some time to come on the podcast and introduce them to you, right? And I'm able to tell themselves to you and me as well. And I'm able to pull their story out so that people can get their story and then they can become bigger fans of them when they follow them on social media if they're not already following Mackenzie is an amazing person. She has been a huge advocate of science communication, a huge advocate and supporter of sustainable seafood. She's been a huge advocate and supporter of marine scientists that are within the LGBTQ plus community.

1:02:54 She's been a huge advocate of sharing and educating the masses on marine science in general. She's a naturalist. She loves science. She loves the ocean. She grew up in Hawaii. But I don't want to give all of a way right now. I want you to listen to the interview because she's just a wonderful person and she just loves what she does. And I think that's what oftentimes we understand that marine scientists and educators and science committees are passionate, but you really get how passionate there. But I really love the decisions that she made over her career and where it's led her currently and how she's like, I don't regret any of it. They were tough decisions at the time. I don't regret any of it. I'm really happy with the choices I've made. And I love where my path is going now. She's a young scientist. She's going to be, you know, she's is and it's going to be an amazing scientist. She's going to be more people that follow.

1:03:42 She's got over 350,000 followers on TikTok, almost 10,000 followers on Instagram. And she just continues to brighten my day every time I see a video because she puts so much work into it. And in this interview, she talks about how much work she puts into those science communication pieces, how much she puts into like the decision making, what she has a plan for the future. And I can't wait for you to hear. So here's the interview with Mackenzie Margaret. I can't wait for you to listen. Enjoy and I will talk to you after. After Hey Mackenzie, welcome to the how to protect the ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about all things ocean science and science communication? Of course, absolutely. Wonderful. I am so excited for this episode. As I mentioned to you before Mackenzie before we start recording, you have been on my guest bucket list for this podcast for quite some time now. I've been watching you on TikTok and watching on Instagram for quite some time, loving your videos, loving what you've been able to do and the education that you bring and kind of the bringing to light some of the issues that we talked about here on the podcast a number of times and some of the stuff that it's still surprising that we still have to talk about it and we still have to engage with it. But it's good to be discussing and we'll discuss that on this episode as well as your foray into science communication and your success into that and how that's changed your perspective in terms of marine science and education. So can't wait to get into all that. But before we get started Mackenzie, why don't you just let the audience know who you are and what you do. For

1:05:13 sure. I also very excited. That was very sweet. Thank you. I'm Mackenzie Margareth. I'm a marine scientist. I mostly focus right now on sustainable seafood. So fisheries and aquaculture as well as like coastal ecology, how those things impact our coastal ecosystems. I'm a marine naturalist. I'm a science communicator. So as you said, I create a lot of videos on TikTok on Instagram in order to bring in the general public on to what we're doing in the science. I feel like we don't do a very good job of that a lot of the time. So I am trying my best to bridge that gap as best as possible. Yeah, I love it. And you're doing a great job. Fantastic job. And I'm not the only one who thinks that too. I know there's a lot of people who think that and all your followers who think that as well, which you've amassed quite a few, which is which is wonderful. How did it all start? You know, like where did this all this story begin of you wanting to become a marine scientist? Oh, I always loved the ocean. I was always a water person.

1:06:16 My family called me little fish growing up because I was just always a water person. And so when I was in high school, I went to high school in Hawaii. I went on this like my high school is right on the side of Diamond Head. We could see the ocean all the time. And so I took a class like a marine biology high school class. Absolutely loved it. It was spectacular. And then when I was going into my undergrad, I like I didn't grow up with a lot of financial security. And of course, I went to I went to a private high school, and I was a scholarship student. So I was surrounded by a lot of people who did have that financial security. And I was like, I want that that's something that I would desire in my life. And so when I was making the decision on what to do, that was a huge factor for me. And so I originally went into school for forensics. So like my little degree here is a degree in forensic science, you can see that the bottom there says forensic science is a huge factor for me. And so I went into forensics. I because I went into forensics, because I was like, that is the thing that will get me paid.

1:07:16 That's the thing that will be financially secure for me. Yeah. And so I did about a year. And one of my professors came up to me and was like, Hey, you're a great scientist. You you do really well. You you're a good, good student. You're a good scientist. You seem miserable. Like you seem miserable and what you're doing. This does not seem like you're happy. Like you're just here and you're just doing it. And she was like, is that something that you're doing? That you genuinely want? Like, is that what you want? Like, you know, you're, you you are picking a career that you're going to do every single day for the rest of your life. Like, yes, it'll bring you financial security. But are you going to be okay with being a bit miserable, a bit not not having fun, not enjoying? And I was like, I don't know, like, I would I would like that financial security. I don't know. That's that's a really tough call. It's a really hard thing for like a 19 year old to decide.

1:08:09 Where you're deciding like the rest of your life. Yeah, you and you've been through, you know, some financial difficulties in the past. And you're like, Well, look, I just want to be able to pay my bills and join my life. But you know, good on this professor for kind of calling it out, you're doing well, the professor could have just said, Yeah, I'm just gonna keep, keep going through and let's see how how they do. And you're like, okay, but then call you up. You're like, hey, look, like, you know, she was very sweet. And I think about her all the time, because she also made me her TA, like, she was an incredible professor, shout out to you, Dr. Cockbell. But she, yeah, she was just kind of like, you know, I don't know, like, because my plan was always to like do forensics, and then like, have the ocean be my life side thing, you know, the thing that I like, volunteer on the weekends. And that like, is like, because there's always been that also advice that people have given you that like, don't make your passion, like your career, like a lot of people that like love to cook, like don't become a chef.

1:09:02 Because then it kind of ruins your your love of cooking, because you're doing it all the time. And so that was kind of my mentality was like, I don't want to do this all the time, because I don't want to lose my love, my love will be on the side, I'll make my money, I'll be able to do the things that was kind of my plan. And she was like, I understand all that. And she was like, Well, how about for the summer, we have, I went to a small private university in Hawaii, it's called Chaminade. And we, the Dean of my department was really close friends with this incredible woman named Dr. Ruth Gates, Dr. Ruth Gates, very, very big name in the coral industry. And they were really close friends. And Dr. Gates was out of UH, so out of the University of Hawaii. And they had never had somebody from my university go to her lab, that had never happened, because she only really accepted UH students. But because her and my Dean were friends, were really close friends, she was like, I will give you one student to send to my lab as a tester student. And if that goes well, you can send more students to my lab.

1:10:02 No pressure. So no pressure. So I became that student, right? I asked to be that student was like, Hey, do you wanna, do you want to go be that student be the you know, be the example? And I was like, sure, you know what, it was on coconut island, which if anybody I'm sure this is like way too dated of a reference for some people, but Gilligan's island, right? That was where that was filmed is coconut island. Yeah. And that's where the Institute is. That's where the Hawaii Institute for Marine Biology is. And so I was like, well, why not? Like I can go out to HIV and go sit on the aisle, you have to take a little boat out there. I was like, sure, I can go I can go send a son to some role island. I guess. Yeah. So I did. And I remember my first day there, they were touring me around. The woman who was in was Dr. Holly Putnam. She was Ruth Gates, like, PI, like one of her head invest or had researchers. And she was touring me around. She was doing all of this stuff. She was talking to me about like ocean acidification and the impacts on coral. And I was like, whoa, I didn't know any of this. Like I've been so focused on forensics that I missed so much of what's going on. And the very first day I was like, this is what I'm doing. I'm not going back. This is it. This is what I'm doing. And so I didn't change my degree just because I was paying for it for myself. And in order to do that, we extend the time that I was there. And I was like, I don't think I'm going to be able to financially pull that off. But I did turn all of my research into marine research. I got a

1:11:32 minor in chemistry. And so I did a lot of stuff within the field. And that allowed me to continue on in from marine biology afterwards. So what an opportunity. Think about it like you're the first student that was ever accepted from a different university. And like you had the passion, obviously. And you had, you know, you had the ability to do it. That wasn't a question. But like, what an opportunity because it never happened before that professor, you know, pulls you out and just be like, hey, I think you might be good for this opportunity to do it. And then all of a sudden, you're like, I'm never going back. Yeah. How difficult was it to infuse, like the marine science part into your forensics, you know, type of work like it with all your coursework and projects and stuff like that? I can't that couldn't have been easy.

1:12:21 Um, it wasn't as difficult as I think it would seem. There's actually a lot more crossover than you would imagine. So like, learning genetics and learning all of this stuff, it was very useful for what I was doing, I ended up doing a lot of genetic work on coral. And so I was able to kind of kind of cross those things over. Of course, there was things like learning fingerprints, that was like, I'm never gonna do. But you know, it's also just like useful to have. And then one of the things that I always talk about that was really, really interesting that really crossed over for me was I learned a lot about law, like a good portion of learning forensics was learning law. And so learning law, learning policies, learning how all this comes into place, helped me understand how environmental stuff comes into place, how environmental policies are utilized. You know, what we do as far as environment when people are breaking environmental laws, and then they're like, oh, I'm going to do this.

1:13:09 Are breaking environmental laws or how those things go about was actually quite useful. And it's something that I still use to this day of being like, I actually know how this process works. Yeah, it was a lot. There was a lot more crossover than I think a lot of people would realize that they seem very, very opposite. But at the same time, science has a lot. And it was also, it's an undergraduate degree, right? So there is just kind of, it's a basis of science. So that kind of helps. But when I think a lot of people think that you have to go and do your undergrad in marine biology. And I think that's a huge myth within within the industry, like, sure, biology helps a science degree helps, whether it's chemistry, whether it's physics, whether it's biology, could be really anything, you could technically go to arts, maybe have to do a couple courses if you want to go into graduate work.

1:14:01 But you really just need the basics at that point. And you can if you decide to go to grad school, if you decide to go and do a job, you have the science degree. It makes it really it doesn't make it too difficult to transfer that knowledge over, especially if you've done most of your projects on on marine stuff. And I'd like the idea of trying to be creative, really, you know, biting into the genetics aspect of course, because you're learning something that needs to be learned anyway, it's not as if it's information that doesn't need to be learned or researched. And so you're able to do that. And then you're you almost become creative, you can use that as a bit of a, you know, their resume is, look, I went into a forensics degree and I use marine science to do it. Like, don't tell me I'm not creative when I when I'm able to do that.

1:14:46 I love that, that aspect. So when you graduated there, what was your next step? You have all this marine science, you're now infused with it, you're inspired by it. You've had the opportunities, you're living in like paradise, like in Hawaii. You know, I say this from someone who just visited there, but I say this as someone who always loved Hawaii. What was the next step? Like, what were you what was your thought process when you graduated? First, I want to give like a little piece of advice. Yeah, looking into it. When I something that I was somebody had told me is that if you are interested in science at all, like go into your undergrad with a general science degree, go for like biology or bio chem or something along those lines, and then do internships and do research in the different fields that you're interested in, because you never know what you're going to like until you're actually doing it.

1:15:35 I thought I was going to love forensics. I thought that was going to be such a cool investigative, very creative. And then I kind of discovered that's not what it was that my idea of what forensic was was not real. And so, you know, I didn't know that until I was actively in it. So my little piece of advice I always try and give is that just just do something general and do and practice and go for as many internships and see what you really like, because then you can specialize in graduate school. And you can do on from there. Yeah. And you can even major in things in you in undergrad to if you decide to do it later. I went in with an agricultural science program, and I ended up switching over to like a marine biology degree afterwards. So like you can always go in different places, just know what kind of courses you're interested in, or what interests you at the time, and it might change. I think that's a great, great piece of advice.

1:16:22 Yeah, but what I did afterwards, so I actually graduated in 2015 with my undergrad. So if you can remember the timeline, that was the year of our first Trump presidency was 2016. Yeah, yeah. I was starting a graduate program at UH actually with Dr. Ruth Ruth Gates lab. So I was doing something with her lab, I started a graduate program at UH. And then Trump presidency came into play and funding got really, really finicky. A lot, a lot of funding was lost to the university. And I bought this letter one day that was like, Hey, we've reevaluated your portfolio, and we are now basically tripling your tuition. And my stipend through my university wouldn't have covered it covered it.

1:17:15 Oh, yeah, it was, it was nearly tripled. It was when it went. It was it was it was a crazy letter to receive. And so I had this like, wow, okay, that's insane. And I remember I went to this protest, like maybe two months after that, and I had this sign that said girls just want to have funding for the research. And I was like, I was like, I, this is crazy how quickly I lost funding and how quickly it all happened. And so I tried originally to do all of it to do the research and then to also get a job. And the job that I got was being a marine naturalist.

1:17:59 So I, that's how I'm in the boats. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm like touring boats with the tourists. And I really loved it. And unfortunately, it was too much. And I did end up having to drop out of my program, which still makes me sad to this day. But that's how life goes. You never know what life's going to throw at you. And there's always something that's around the corner that you don't know about. And I think that for me, that was being a marine naturalist. I started being a marine naturalist. I became a humpback naturalist. I worked for this company that allowed me to transfer to a another island. So I grew up on Oahu. And then my partner and I got an opportunity to move to the Big Island. So we moved to the Big Island for a year and a half. And I was working on a submarine, which was a very popular thing that I've talked about on Instagram, or on TikTok. So that's where I worked on the submarine as a naturalist and as a co pilot. And then we ended up, you know, leaving Hawaii altogether because my goal was always to go back to school, I always wanted to return. And it was kind of those one of those things that I partnered with. And I remember, I remember like, if we want to do this, we're gonna have to leave the most expensive state in the United States. It is a very expensive place. You know, we're both working full time job.

1:19:12 She even had a second job, just to afford to live, right? You don't really get to see each other. There's not, you know, yeah, that's a lot. So it was kind of one of these things that was like, if this is really your goal, this is really what you want, then you're gonna have to give up being home. And it was kind of this conversation that I was like, you're right. And so we did, we left. And then unfortunately, there was a pandemic. So that also was, no, that didn't help. But I got to like, spend time with my grandma, we were we took care of my grandma for two years. And so I always really value that time as well. There's, there's times for you to be an active scientist, and there's times for you to be an active community member and an active member of like your family and those sorts of things. And that was my time was to be an active member of my family and to give my grandma her last two years at the home that she wanted to be in. So that's what I did. I, I was in the pandemic, and I had already started to talk, but I really had started to talk because people had told me that that was like where the lesbians were there were like, that's where the lesbians are going. And I was like, if you tell me the lesbians are there, I'm going. So yeah, you're telling me that my people are there, I'm going. So that's kind of what I started as was just like, lesbian thirst traps and like trying to make community with my people. And it was during the pandemic.

1:20:28 And I remember this very specific video that I was like, well, since we're all stuck inside, let me teach you something, let me teach you about some coral. And I made this little video about coral and what coral bleaching is and what white coral could be that it's not necessarily dead. It was like, and people were so interested in it. They were like, I didn't know I need this information. And I was like, Oh, wait a second. All that work that I have done in person as a naturalist, which, you know, was very interesting because I grew up with the ocean. I grew up waking up and seeing the ocean. And you know, you don't understand that when you're younger, you don't understand how special that is. You just think that's not somebody's at the door. I think so. Love dogs in this podcast. Delivery probably.

1:21:17 But yeah, you know, I didn't understand how special that was. And then working as a naturalist kind of showed me that it showed me how people don't grow up with you. Sometimes people were coming on that boat, having seen the ocean. This was their first time on the ocean, seeing things, learning about fish, learning about whales. And it was those moments that I was like, Oh, I can connect people with the ocean. I can help people develop this relationship that will then foster into them caring, which will then foster them into them making taking actions. And it was that video where I where I made, talked about coral. People were so interested that I was like, Oh, wait a second. I can do this online. I can take all those things that I was doing in person and bring that online. So I just started creating these videos about the knowledge that I had and about marine science and about being in marine science. And it just became this really wonderful career in marine science communication. Well, it's just amazing.

1:22:09 There's a few things that you said there, like, we'll get into the science communication set, because this is where I really want to I want to I'll live with you on this because it's so important. You made that you made some pretty big decisions, like after you graduated. Yeah. And it's insane to think about how many scientists, marine scientists, when we come marine scientists, we dream of like either working in Australia or working in a place like Hawaii. Right. And then here it is. It's too expensive for marine biologists, like homegrown marine biologists to live there to do the work that they would love in an island that they know. And then they have to go somewhere else to do it. I just feel like that's very weird. It should not happen in a way. You know what I mean? Like, it should be a place where you can go and enjoy, especially because and I know just from you, like, especially from your videos, like, you know, the culture, you know, like, you know, the significance of everything.

1:22:59 And I think that's important for scientists to be able to do that. So I'm sorry you had to make that decision to go to do that. But even moving to the like, like, even the decision to move, like, as like the other thing, actually, is to be a naturalist on a boat and like to dive into that. Do you regret the decision of of getting that job and working in that job? Because it seems like it's really paying off right now in terms of just being able to do what you want to do, you know, on on on TikTok and on Instagram and on science communication. Like, do you regret that? No, I think there's like, I've always learned and like the lessons I've learned is that there's always something that you don't know about. Like, right now, I'm waiting to hear about a graduate program, right? And you're kind of like, you're on the edge of your seat, constantly checking your email, like, oh, am I going to have the email today? Is it coming in today?

1:23:47 And I know it's coming in any day now. Right? It's happening soon. And, you know, I try and remind myself that no matter what happens with it, that door doesn't open. There's another door that I'm not that I don't see right now. There's a window, there's a door, there's something else that I am not noticing. And that's kind of how I feel about the marine naturalist thing is that I took it as originally like this is, I know enough that I can teach people and it's something that will give me some money. Cool. Yeah. And I didn't realize where it would take me. And so at the time, yeah, for sure. At the time, I was like, I am Yeah, it was a hard decision. I was so tired. I was so overworked. And so of course, at the time, it was like, man, was this the right choice? I feel a little bit overwhelmed and overworked. But now, in retrospect, of course, I'm like, wow, that gave me so many tools that I didn't realize I needed for a career that I really loved. I had always wanted to do science communication. I didn't even know what that really was, though, right?

1:24:43 Like, I always just wanted to do science communication. I always just wanted to teach, I always just wanted to help people connect to the ocean, I'd always wanted to be a part of that. But I didn't know it was called science communication. I didn't know that there was an actual career or job in it. Like there was, like, none of that was information that I understood until it was kind of happening. And I was like, Oh, okay, this is this is all the blocks are coming, they're building something. I just wasn't able to see what the structure was until I took a step back. So no, you know, yes, it was a hard decision. And, you know, there's always a part of you that's one that likes to if and but about things, right? What what could have been what could have been what would have been. But now I think I, I'm very thankful.

1:25:27 You know, I actually was just talking to quite a few other science friends about this, particularly women in science, we kind of, you know, it's hard to be on in science. I think everybody can see that, you know, we're, we're, we're tend to be overlooked quite a bit. And one of the things that I was talking to quite a few of my like friends about is that, you know, we get these opportunities for research. And sometimes you just want to take them because you're like, well, I got an opportunity, I want to take it like, that's cool. I'm a woman in science that got an opportunity given to you, I want to take it. But then you have to think about is this actually research that I want to be doing? Is this actually what I want to be specialized? Is this going to help me in the long run? And so those things are kind of what I, you know, try and reflect on. And the research that I was involved in was really interesting and really cool. But it's not, I don't think what I would have wanted to be doing in the long term. So would that have benefited me in the long term is kind of one of those things that I try and remind myself. And, you know, I think that's a really cool thing.

1:26:25 And, you know, I think a lot of times we kind of like pigeonhole ourselves into like, you know, this is the opportunity that I got. And so now I'm just doing exactly this. But now I, you know, have had such a passion now for sustainable seafood and for fisheries and aquaculture and all of these things that I wouldn't have been able to be involved in it had I gone down that path, or it would have been a hard pivot from that path. So I think that gets that I think there's always something on the horizon that you just can't see and that you got it, you got to trust in the universe a little bit sometimes, which doesn't feel good, but you got to try and do it. For sure. I just recently did an episode on conservation careers. And I mentioned that like, sometimes those decisions are really hard at the time, because you have no idea where it's going to take you. But then there's no really right or wrong decision.

1:27:10 You know, as long as you're not hurting anybody, there's no real right or wrong decision, whatever the decision is, that's your path. It was meant to be and then you just go ahead and do it and you make the best of it. Sometimes, oftentimes, it ended up any benefiting you in the end, you know, you do science communication, I assume we'll talk about in a second. You've got some opportunities, you know, available to you that you probably wouldn't have had if you didn't start the science communication, right. And I've had the same opportunity, like I've had similar opportunities or similar, you know, different opportunities with with podcasting that have come to me where like, I would never would have predicted this if it hadn't happened. And I think it kind of opens up our mind a little bit forces us a little bit to do it, but opens up our mind. So I really like that. The other thing that you mentioned earlier, which I think is really important to is obviously your partner plays a big role in your life, you know, life partner.

1:27:58 She's there to do, you know, you guys are living it together, you know, there's compromise to happen. She moved with you to the Big Island. And she moved with you again, after that. Obviously, that's amazing thing to do, right? You know, to go, Hey, if you want to do this, we got to move away, let's let's go ahead and do this. Like, how is it like, how important is that to you to have that support there to do that? And wasn't it difficult decision for her to say, Yeah, let's go to these places. It can't be an easy thing, right? Um, I will say first off, it was not a difficult decision for her. She is so much of the let's explore the world. I want to get out there. I want to do things. So I don't feel bad about that whatsoever. Because I think I'm the one who struggled with it more. I'm like, I want to be home. And she's like, she's like, those don't know the things that you want. And the goals that you have in mind are not aligning right now. Like, you need to figure it out. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, you're right. You might have a good point there.

1:28:59 So yeah, she's the one that likes to explore and to get out there and be big. So no, that that wasn't necessarily the issue. But I do think having a strong support system is so essential. Particularly if you're doing like digital science communication, I think we touched on this before we started recording of people can be the online community can be a lot, it can be really tough. You know, it's your the words that you say can get misconstrued so so easily people can take things out of context, take a single singular sentence from a whole video out of context, and it can snowball into something else. And so having a really strong support system is necessary. This is one of the things that I get asked all the time at conferences, people are like, how do you do everything? How do you go to school and do research and do science communication and like keep your head up of water? And I'm like, I have a really, really strong support system.

1:29:50 Not just my partner, but also like, I have some really incredible best friends that are always there. And you know who I can call for pretty much anything. I am very, very lucky in that way to have such an incredible, strong support system. And I think that is an essential part of being in like conservation or being in advocacy, particularly if you're doing it digitally, because like my partner is not an online person, she doesn't have social media. She doesn't do any of that. No, she's that's not her thing whatsoever. She is very, very, very good. She's very private, keeps to herself. And that is so, so lovely for me, because there's times where I'm like, God, I hate this. I hate everybody. Like, I'm just so miserable. I'm so mad. And she's like, put your phone down.

1:30:34 We need to be called out that way. Yeah. Put your phone down. Let's go for a walk. Like, let's go. Yeah, let's go. Let's go feel some sunshine on your skin. I'm like, oh, yeah. Right. A little reminder. I check. Yeah. And so I think that's very important. Like, it's not necessarily that you have to have something that's offline as much as I do. But I think it's important to have somebody that reminds you of these things that reminds you to be like, hey, you you are going into a place of like letting the internet rot your brain a little bit like the internet is getting inside you, you need to go outside, you need to go look at the ocean. Yeah. Remind yourself why you're doing what you're doing. And you're like, Oh, yeah, you're 100% correct. And so I feel very lucky to have that even the other day, I was on FaceTime with one of my best friends. And I somebody on threads, made one of those comments that just drives me absolutely bonkers where they were like, if you're not vegan, you're not an environmentalist. And I was like, I'm coming for you. And so I like, you know, we need to have a discussion.

1:31:33 Yeah. So you know, me and my, my little contacts and everyone's commenting. And, you know, we were watching our favorite show together. That's what we were doing on FaceTime. I brought up threads, and she could see it on my face that I was reading. And I was getting granary. And she was like, put the keyboard warriors away, like put them away, stop. And I was like, Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. Right. Okay. It's difficult sometimes. And I get I'm right there with you. Sometimes I read comments, even if it's on other people's posts. And I'm just like, I need I have the need to say something. I have, but it gets me charged up. Yeah. And it's, I coach, I coach my girls hockey team. We have a rule in his words, like the 24 hour rule, whereas like after a game, no parent can come up and like, yell at you or anything like that, they have to give 24 hours to like calm themselves down and they can talk to you after that. Great rule should be in all sports. And usually it is.

1:32:23 I feel like it almost should be for for for social media to like, if I see a comment, I'm just like, Oh, this is gonna get me angry. I'm gonna get emotional about this. Then I was like, just leave it, put it down. Like, wait, wait 24 hours. And then that comment is still going to be there. And then you can get after it that way. Yeah, like it's difficult, though, sometimes. Oh, it's so hard not react. Right. Yeah. But when you do like, you've had some some posts of your own where, you know, I'm sure you get comments on it, especially when you're talking about the LGBTQ plus and it's, you know, it's a hard thing to like you want it, you want to talk about it because you want to get your opinions out and then people are commenting some pretty hateful comments or, you know, some pretty just not nice comments and you respond to it. But you always respond to it in such a way you look like you know, you're calm, you almost like it feels and maybe you're not. It's it's what the what it seems to me when I watch it. But you're like, I'm not going to be able to almost approaching it like a scientist.

1:33:24 You're like, let's let's just look at the like, let's be reasonable here. Here's the situation. Here's what people are going through. And this is why you're talking about it. Can you just kind of talk us through when you do a post like that and respond? Is it one of those things where you wait 24 hours and then you kind of respond or like, how do you look so calm? I don't know if you are enough. But how do you look so calm and respond that way? I would say I'm calm like 80% of the time. If you actually look at some of the videos, there's some of them that I get. I get a little heated, I get a little frustrated. Okay. Understandably so. Yeah, there's there's a few and and funny enough, it's the ones that I get frustrated that people like don't listen. I'm like, Oh, yeah, maybe maybe I should be a little bit more calm. Because I like you said, I do get caught up with it sometimes where I'm just like, I can't I can't deal with you right now. And then I go I lose my cool a little bit. But that is the ones where I have resources and I have, you know, I am a bit more calm. I do come at it from a very scientific perspective that people understand a little bit better. So I try and remember that. It doesn't always work. Yeah, I'm not I'm not perfect. I have my moments. But you know, I really tried to remind myself that like, when you come at things with data points, and with, you know, genuine perspectives, and with, you know, the actual experiences that queer people have experienced, people who are better at time of listening, but also, there's people that don't want to listen. There's people that don't care, no matter how much data you have, no matter how much you articulate your point, they don't want to listen.

1:34:55 And I've definitely experienced that. And I think it was last month or the month before that, I was talking about a couple of girls who are in Hawaii who are very anti LGBTQ, but are also a marine conservationist. And I'm like, this is a genuine problem that we experience in the marine conservation field is we have a lot of anti LGBTQ people, which their sentiments, their mentalities can leak into policies and legislations. And that's a huge issue. And I've seen it within, you know, when we're at conservation conferences, I've seen those things, we've kind of brought up those prejudice, the kind of infiltrate into actual policy building. And so it's a problem that we need to be addressing. And of course, those two, the two that I was mainly talking to didn't didn't want to hear it didn't want to care didn't have any opinion. But it was the other people, right?

1:35:44 All all all the others, all the others that were listening were like, Oh, I didn't realize how big of an issue this was. I didn't realize that so many of the people that I support, and that I like find, you know, my information from have a negative perspective of like my community, the people that that's who I am. So I think it is, I understand how important of a topic it is to be discussing. So I try and remind myself of that. So I'm like, remain calm. Yeah, articulate your point. It was a really important conversation. And again, I think that's what I'm trying to do. And again, I'm not perfect. It doesn't always go doesn't always work. Like, if you really look at those times, there is one video where I have lost it. I lost Michael. But you know what, where it happens. And I, that's, that's just what I do, you have to do. And necessarily, like, that's not necessarily that's something that everyone has to do. But I think with the platform that I have, and with developing that platform, like I said, I developed that platform, that platform got better.

1:36:45 They built off the lesbians. It was on the back. That's how I got there. That's how the first 100 K came about. Was the, my backbone of my community of my marine conservation area, our lesbians, I so therefore, my, I need to stand up for my community, like the the queer community are the people that are there. lifting me up, therefore I have to turn around and do the same. And I feel the responsibility to do that. So that's why it's very important to me. Like I said, I can't always come at it with a calm demeanor, but I try not to. Understandably, understandably, too. I mean, it's very frustrating to watch, you know, sometimes even like cis male, you know, white guy, middle age, I try to do my best to keep my mind open and make sure that, you know, I do my best to keep everybody like keep everybody around me inclusive and that it provides approach like I could be approachable, right? And but like, it's true. Like when you watch some of those things, you're it's amazing. But like, I learned from these videos as well. Right?

1:37:43 I learned about some of the policies where he's like, I never thought I never would have thought about that. And it's just out of ignorance. It's not out of malicious, you know, behaviors, just like, Oh, never thought that well, that makes sense. And then you, you know, you start putting it together. If I'm ever in a position where I have influence on that and same with other people. I mean, but you have over 350,000 followers on on TikTok, which is absolutely phenomenal. But not everybody is anti LGBTQ, as you mentioned, a lot of them, you know, a lot of your followers are from the lesbian community. So it's like, hey, like, they got my back and they understand. But I think it's also important to realize, and I do this sometimes too, with in different aspects, when people talk about climate change conservation, they, they say some things that aren't true. It's like, I'm not there to refute just what you're saying. I'm there to educate the other people who look at the comments or who look at my posts or whatever that might be. That's important for science communication. I don't think we realize that and that could cause conflict for us in the future by the very people that you're responding to, but you're really not responding to them. And you're really responding more to like, Hey, by the way, for those of you who really want to know, this is what climate change in or is this is what some of the policies that are put in place that we need to change. And I think that's the important part from a scientific point of view that I get out of it. And I hope I assume, you know, you do as well. I think that's an important part, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's always, it's always about the people that you don't realize are watching. Right. Now, you know, when you do your videos, you have you talk a lot about a lot of different things, right? We talked about the LGBTQ community, especially within marine

1:39:14 science, you, you talk about your naturalist stuff. I'm looking at a video right now. I see starfish. I see like I'm just watching the clips right now. But it like that's your naturalist coming out that experience coming out. And you do education on like looking at dive tips and like when you went back home and like, you know, there's a lot of been a lot of submarine reports come out over the last few years, you have that experience with some reason. Do you like when you wake up every day, do you have an idea of what you're going to post or like, do you do you plan that out ahead of time to just being like, yeah, like, this is what I'm going to talk about today. And how is that influenced by, you know, what you see around you?

1:39:59 I think I always have a plan and the plan tends to always go awry. So I've really learned over the past four years that like, yet, like I have a whole list of things that I'm like, here are content pieces that I would love to talk about. Like I have lists of my phone, I have lists of my planner, I have lists everywhere of like, here's a content idea, which I think is really useful on those days that you're like, I don't know what to talk about. Like, there's nothing that's come about. I don't have anything. Wait, let me go reference this whole list of things of ideas that I have that I can make something based off of. But a lot of the times, it'll be like, I want to record this today. And then I'll open Instagram or open TikTok. And I have 40 tags. And I'm like, what is going on? And it's something that people are like, can you talk about this? Can you reference this? What is this person referring to?

1:40:40 And I'm like, oh, okay, I got to put that what I was going to talk about in the back burner for a second, put it back on my list, address this. So I tend to see that like, sometimes I have plans. Sometimes I'm like, this will be this day, this will be this day. And sometimes that works out. But oftentimes, I find that it's what the take what what my audience wants to hear what they're asking for. Okay, let me address that first. So it really depends. And I've learned that plan to make content don't necessarily always be planning on what that content is going to be. I have scripts for things that are going to be a lot of things that I haven't recorded yet, because I will make the script, I'll get on TikTok. And there's something else that needs to be addressed, okay? We're going to focus on that instead. So you know, there's always have those as a backup, if you want to, that's always nice. Yeah, there's always days that you that there's nothing going on in the in the ocean world. Like, I mean, that's not true. There's always something going on in the ocean world, but nothing on TikTok, right? Yeah, nothing that the TikTok audience have grabbed on to quite yet. So those days, oh, I have I have things I have lots of stuff that I could talk about. I have lots of things that I can bring up. I have lots of content that I can produce. And I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing but there's also days that you just got to listen to what people want to hear and listen to the questions that people are asking. And that's an important aspect, especially to social media, it is supposed to be social, right? It's supposed to be engaging.

1:41:53 And if you engage with some of your followers, or even if they haven't followed you, but they've watched your videos before, because that can happen on TikTok, you know, they're tagging you in this like, hey, you know, because I'd love to hear about this, you know, I want to hear about this, like, what are your thoughts? And I think that's really important to address, like almost right off the bat, as soon as you see it's just like, Oh, yeah, like, this is something that I want to, I want to be able to talk about to answer it and clear things up. Obviously, people want some clarification or a response or something like that. I, yeah, I think that's a, that's a great idea. Now, when you, when you're looking at these videos, they, how long does it take you to make a video? I'm just curious, because they're short form, but they're really not short form in the making. It depends on what the topic is.

1:42:36 Like, if it's a little bit more fun, like the teaching people how to like, a couple of dive tips I have for people, right? I think took me like 45 minutes, because I was also getting like footage, right? I was like, Okay, I got a couple videos of me, so I can show exactly what I'm talking about. So I got to grab. So like, thank you both those things, right? Like, got to dig through my videos, find the video that I'm referring to, pull that out, get on, you know, do all of that. Of course, you I like I watch back as I'm making my TikTok, because for me, like I I've I've cried and using my phones until they absolutely die. So I still have, I think this is like an iPhone 11, which means that sometimes there's glitches, right? Sometimes it doesn't always grab the audio or whatever. So I, I try and watch as I go, not every single clip, but a couple clips, okay, watch did did did all the audio work, did it was there any glitches? And sometimes that happens, right? Sometimes there's a glitch, okay, got to record that, re record that piece, okay, try. And so I try and give myself time. So I think that one took me a little bit longer.

1:43:33 I mean, about 45 minutes. But then it depends, like, if it's a topic about something that's like a research piece or a question that people are asking, I try and put a lot of effort into researching the question and making sure that like what I'm talking about is the most recent and updated version. And sometimes it's not sometimes, you know, that's the thing about science that that I'm trying to break with being a science communicator is how difficult it can be and how exclusionary exclusion, exclusionary, exclusionary. Is that the right word? You don't have to say. Yeah, I can be very, you know, hard to find like that. It's behind a paywall. It's, you know, here in Canada, we have different regulations on on what news you can access because they were trying to, you know, they were trying to mitigate the spread of misinformation. But that in order to do so, they just got to put a blanket over everything, over everything makes it a little difficult. So, you know, it's sometimes it's even difficult for scientists to find the most updated information, right? There's something there's always something coming out, there's new public, there's new people every single day. So I try and do my best to find the most recent information to look and see what I'm looking at. So that can take time that alone can take a few hours.

1:44:51 To make sure that I am reading the most, you know, updated things and and combing through papers. That is so difficult sometimes. The way that oh, yeah, the way scientists write is so convoluted. I like I just want to I'm like, we need to make abstracts something that like a regular person could read. And that would be beneficial. Like, I get, like, I get that, like, you know, there's two or three sentences about the actual what you did. That's not gonna make sense to people that like don't actually know what you're involved with. Sure. I'll give you that. Yeah, but like, for the most part, your abstract should be able to be digestible for a general audience. You almost need a blog for abstracts. Really? Like a blog for abstracts. Yeah, truly. And I think, yeah, some some grace for your actual methods and methodologies, because that's that's just how things are. But man, sometimes I'm like, do we have to use the thesaurus for every single word? Is that necessary? And it's just sometimes it drives me absolutely botherous. Because I'm like, if I'm struggling with this, yeah, like, nearly 10 years of science experience experience experience of I'm struggling. Yeah, imagine a regular person trying to research this and trying to figure out the answer. They're not going to get there. They're also going to have to pay like $7000 because it's every every paper is behind a paywall. Like, let me know if I work for a university right now. So I get access to a certain amount of papers, even then there's still someone that are behind paywalls from and let's just be honest, like these these yeah, these subscriptions for the universe at the universities pay are

1:46:22 like, in the tens of thousands of dollars per per, you know, publisher, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's it's it's insane. And I think that's what takes me the most time is really combing through all of that science. So, and then obviously, like writing my script, kind of going over it, because that that's the one of the hardest parts about science communication is trying to double check your own biases of what words and what things make like I know that like my general audience is not going to know because sometimes I'll use terminologies that I am just so used to. Yeah, I'm like, Oh, everyone's gonna know that. And then I then all of a sudden people are like, Oh, are you saying you're like, Oh, yeah, sorry. I realized now that like, like, that's not a that's not a common term. That's not a vocab word that everyone got to have in high school. That is something that I've just like been ingrained with so hard that I think everybody knows now, but that's not. Oh, yeah.

1:47:17 I always get caught up in the acronyms. There are times I've used the acronym so much. I don't know what it stands for anymore. It's just the app. Sure. I know what the acronym is. For sure. Every time I say Noah and I leave like, what does Noah stand for? I'm like, Oh, the well, it's the place with the ocean. I know they're in there somewhere. Yeah, they're somewhere there. Yeah, yeah, like I definitely understand. And like, for me, Noah is like that acronym is so you know what I'm talking about. I was saying, yeah, you say that to a regular person. They're like, talking about like, you'll see the face go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's one of those words that we have because of the experience that we have. We know it so well. We don't even think about it anymore. But most people really don't know what that is and don't know what they do. So yeah, that's, that's probably one of the hardest parts is like, yes, coming through the science and then I got to build the script a little bit and then I got to relook at the script and be like, okay, what in here? Am I missing? What in here? What in here is not going to make sense to somebody? And what should I elaborate on a little bit? And it can even just be one little sentence, right? Noah, the American Oceans and Atmosphere organization. Boom.

1:48:32 Yeah, that covers it. But sometimes you forget to do those things. So I try and I try and comb through it all and then record. Then of course, you got to you got to edit it, you got to do all of that. And I like try and use green screens and that stuff because I try and make it visually appealing to my audience as well, which is, you know, where people are losing their attention spans. So you got to keep the attention. Even with short videos, you got to switch it up. And so like, you know, getting the pictures, editing the pictures to be the right size for TikTok, all that takes quite a bit of time. It takes a lot more time than people realize, I think. Yeah, 100%. And I think also with the evolution of TikTok in terms of the time limits that they offer, you know, first used to be what, 30 seconds? Yeah, then it became 60 seconds, then three minutes now 10 minutes. How hard was it for you to get all the information into one minute? Did you do a lot of like part one, part two, part three, like that type of content?

1:49:28 Absolutely. The minute limit was was tough. Like I, I really love the three minutes because I think I can get a good piece. Yes. Even like two minutes with three minutes gives me the leisure of okay, I can edit down a little bit. I can kind of scramble around. But when it was a minute strict, you could hear me like the last two coats being like, and this is trying to like, shout for sentences into the last 10 seconds. Because you're out of time and there's no, and there's no leeway. There's no, you know, there's no, there's nothing you're, you're cut off at 60 seconds. But now I appreciate that those are a little bit more like I usually just go straight to the 10 minute feature. And I rarely, rarely go over three minutes. I write, you know, but having that 10 minutes of time lets me play around a little bit, right? Let's me.

1:50:17 Okay, what can I edit down? What can I take out? What can what can you move around? And it also gives you the ability to kind of like stop to right like because you can clip off those little pieces you can, yes, take a breath, take your sentence. Okay, click. Whereas before you were like, click, click, click. Yeah, all the time. Go. I appreciate that we've kind of moved a little bit as far as editing on tick tock to have a little bit more space and time. So yeah, I and I try and not go over because I tend I noticed now like, no, a lot of my content is very educational, very science-based that like if it's too long I'm gonna lose people. They can only, you know, they're on TikTok because they want to have fun. They want to scroll a little bit. Sure they want to, you know, they're like, "Oh yeah, I'll sit for a minute and learn." That's nice. I'll learn from you today.

1:51:06 Yeah, but like a quick piece of learning something new is kind of, you know, what people are going for. So I try and find that sweet spot of like how do I make sure I'm getting you the right information, the correct information, information that you can understand and utilize, but also in an entertaining way that's not going to go over your time limit of your brain. So it's a real tricky balance that we're constantly trying to kind of figure out and work with. Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's kind of funny. You know, like, you know, you're not only trying to do that, but you're trying to learn the software. Are you trying to, do you edit all on your phone? Is that what you're saying? Like you do it all? I edit mostly on my phone. I have, I do have CapCut and stuff on my computer, but I just, I find it like I take most of my footage on my phone. So I do have like, yeah, loading up. You just upload from my phone and edit from there. So yeah, that's kind of what I mostly do it from. I have played around with it on my laptop, but also like I'm a scientist on my laptop.

1:52:00 I have like our running. There's like, I think I have like 10 fucking research papers open right now. The second I open my laptop, all of a sudden I'm like, oh yeah, I got to write that paper. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, what about my phone? Like I, this is, this is my science communication world. This is my research world, you know, so that's hilarious. That's so, so true too. I have like so many tabs open a lot of times when I record all of a sudden, like, like computers, like we're just chugging here. You need to like close a lot of these tabs. I'm like, I only have like 400 open. I don't understand why it's, you know, why it's taking so long, but yeah, no, I completely get, I learned editing on my laptop. So like going to the phone, I'm just like, this is not easy, like doing text and everything like that. I'm like, I have to scroll. And of course, every font that I like is the lowest on the screen. Oh, for sure. And you're just like, come on, like, and they have to find all the time. Anyway, but I appreciate, I respect the, the editing on the phone because I have such a hard time doing it. It's not easy.

1:53:04 It's, it's not takes a while to get used to, I imagine, but, but you do such a great job because you do like, it's not just like you're just talking into the, into the camera all the time. Like there are some words like day in the life of, and, you know, all those types of, of like vloggy type of content that take a while to go through because then you have to do the voiceover as you're putting them all through and that. So yeah, the editing is, is a, is a vibe for sure, because it's not as if it's easy to do or it takes, it always takes time because you have to pay attention to every single detail. Absolutely. That's great. But this is just, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, I was just saying, I like those pieces because I like to remind people that I'm a human. I think that a lot of the times people get on, uh, see scientists online and they're like, that's what they are. They're a scientist and they just know all they are omnipotent scientists. And I'm like, I am a human. I am just, I am just a human. I'm, I'm just a girl that likes the ocean and studies the ocean. Like I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to say things that are incorrect. Sometimes science is constantly changing. I am just a human that is trying my best. And so I, I like making those pieces, even though they can be kind of tedious because like you said, you got to go through that voiceover gradual of those things. But I think it reminds you that there's a human aspect to it. And that was one of the biggest things when I got a management team for my science communication, I was like, like, I am not becoming like the commercial person.

1:54:30 I am not becoming this like one entity. Like that's never who I'm going to be. I need the internet to remember that I am just a human that like, that like likes to create content and likes to share about science communication and wants to connect people to the ocean and wants to help people get involved in marine conservation. But I am just a person. Give me some grace. I agree with you there. You know, that's one thing that somebody told me when I first started, I was asking, you know, I was changing up my intro one of the times I was doing a podcast and I was asking for feedback and I had a good friend of mine. She always helps me out in terms of like what I should go with and like kind of just confirms some of the things that I want to do. And she was always like, give us a little bit of tidbit of like your personality. Like what's going on in your life? Like, what do you like?

1:55:16 Which is it's so funny because I interview people to get that personality out. Like what they're like, I want people to know how cool our scientists are. And like they're like everybody else, they're human beings, you know, and they love certain things. They don't like certain things. And this is who they are. And that's that's the fun part of it. But I never really thought of it for myself until I get reminded like, hey, you know, it's through a little bit like what's going on in your life, how the kids you know, all that kind of stuff. And so every once in a while, I'll throw something down because it just it's humanized you. Yeah, people are listening to you, whether they're watching you on TikTok or listening through the podcast. It gets you're in your ears, right? You're in their eyes on a regular basis. And so they tend to have that like, almost like a loyalty to you.

1:55:57 But like, you're like, in there, they're an influence, you're an influence. I guess that's where the influence came from. But you're an influence and how they think about marine science and, and having that personality I really like I loved your the videos of you going back to Hawaii. Thank you. That was really I felt that was really special. And just because you're like, you love you can tell you love it just from the podcast. But before I knew you loved just from that video, because you're like, it was wild since you had been back and you want to do you know, spend time with your friends and you're like, there's you're talking about, couldn't see everybody was a little chaotic, but it's a lot. It's always fun. I like that part, because it does show that personality. Yes, you know a ton about marine science, and you're willing to share everything. But yeah, you got to get to know you got to get to know the Mackenzie, right? That's the best part of it all. And I think that's important, because then it allows people to be like, Oh, well, yeah, don't go attacking her. She's just doing what she's doing. You know, she's just doing what she loves.

1:56:52 So let her let her do that. And I think that's, that's, that's really important. I got to ask just as we kind of wrapping up here, and you and I could probably talk for like three hours just on on science communication alone. You know, coming up, you've had, you know, there's been probably opportunities presented, you talked about like a management team now that you have. Where do you want to take your science communication? Like, how do you want to like, I know, like I've been on your website talks a lot about science communication. Where do you want to go with with all of this? Um, well, right now, I am like waiting to hear about a graduate program that I've applied for. And so thank you. I'm very nervous. It would be a very big, a big transition in my life.

1:57:36 And so that is something that I kind of, I would like to take my audience along with me and what that looks like. Yeah, so that's just, yeah, that's that's kind of what I you know, I did a graduate diploma. So just a one year in fisheries and agriculture. And it's allowing me to apply for this program. And it's, it's a bit it would be a big, big move, big, big transition. And so I am, you know, kind of just kind of waiting and I like to share about that. I think that's kind of where I see myself going is sharing more of my research and what I'm doing actively in the field. I still like you know, I enjoy, I've made, you know, the pandemic when I was a little bit like I was, you know, taking care of my grandma, I wasn't as active in actual research. I, you know, got to make really fun videos like, you know, like what octopus you are based on your zodiac sign and all that. And I think that's kind of where I'm going.

1:58:41 And that's kind of where I want to start leaning into. So yes, I still want to make fun science communication videos, but I also want to bring people in to the research a little bit more. And I last year I was doing research at a lab that wasn't as successful as I was doing before. And so I didn't get to share as much as what I was doing. And like now the paper is kind of in production and it will be published this year. That's kind of what I've been working on lately is is getting that paper ready. And so once it's published, I'll be able to kind of talk about a little bit more. But just because of the like the nature of, of, you know, of the lab and what they kind of do. Sometimes you can't sometimes you can't. Yeah, sometimes it's awesome. It's going to be discussed. There's, you know, there's that's that's the nature of things. That's just kind of the honest thing.

1:59:29 So, you know, I'm, but the lab that I applied for the graduate program that I applied for, they're very open. Their whole basis is, you know, it is climate change and fisheries and all of these sorts of things that's their main focus, but also they have a real emphasis on science communication and the advisor has, you know, talked to me about it. And it's very open to me sharing my experiences, which was really important to me when I was applying for this graduate program. So that's kind of where I want to go is yes, still have those kind of fun pieces still be educating, but also be showing what what life is really like that, you know, yes, marine science can be really fun. And yes, it is an incredible career. I love it with all my heart, but it is not just like playing with dolphins and going for swimming. It is also a lot of times. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be great. There's also like a lot of science involved. There's a lot of sitting behind my computer. You know, there's a lot of sitting right here at this spot on this laptop, looking out this window of how beautiful of a day it is. It'd be amazing.

2:00:27 I don't get to go outside because I have to write this frickin grant. I have to sit here and yeah, code some are always that that's always fun. People love our yeah, for sure. No, we would never we would never speak down about our ever. So you know, like that. I think that reality is so important. I, I, when I first got involved in science communication, I found people like always talked about like the benefits of of marine science and there was always these videos that were like marine science and it's like there's dolphins and there's ocean and there's all these things and they're going for Diaries and they're all this stuff. I'm like, I'm like, okay, that yes, but also I think that we should like tell people that like that's not all of us.

2:01:11 Yeah, a lot of it is analyzing all your data is office time is sitting in a lab. It is waiting for your PCR to run. It is waiting for your you know, your experiment to be to be conducted. It's all of these things that are not as glamorous. And so that's one of the things I started talking about that I think people really connected to because I was like, I'm going to do a lot of things because I think that's really cool. It is waiting for your, you know, your experiment to be to be conducted. It's all of these things that are not as glamorous. And so that's one of the things I started talking about that I think people really connected to because I was like, it's underfunded. It can be really tough. There we still deal competitive. Oh, it's competitive. It's so competitive. It's very much who you know, it's, you know, and a lot of times you're up against your friends, which does not feel good. You're going up against people that you're working, you know, that you've worked with that you've studied with. It is it is not all fishies and dolphins.

2:01:52 It is is is hard. And so that's kind of one of the things that I've I talked about previously that people really connected to people really thankful for that. And I've gotten a lot of messages of people being like, thank you for that. Like, I really want to get into marine science, but I didn't realize that there was all of these other aspects. And I'm like, no, I'm glad that you were able to understand that. And so that's kind of where I want to keep going. I want to keep educating, keep talking, keep bringing people, connect people to the ocean, giving them that like sense of care, giving them that. Ability to want to be involved in marine conservation. You know, I always think that's the most important part. If I can teach you about a new animal that oh my God, you're obsessed with that animal. Okay, cool. In order to protect that animal, we have to do all of these things as well. There's there's pieces that are important. Yeah, exactly. So I, you know, I always will do that. I will always keep doing that. But also, I'm really excited to share a little bit more about what the world really looks like and and what all those things are aspects. So we'll, we'll know in a few weeks, hopefully.

2:02:47 And and I know it's gonna turn out well. I have the feeling you deserve it. You definitely deserve it. You know, all the decisions you made to get to where you're at. They've been for a reason. You are an amazing scientist. The way you speak about science is amazing. And you can tell there's a lot of passion in there. So, you know, fingers crossed. But I'm very confident that you'll get this. And we can't wait to see. I speak on behalf of the audience here. We can't wait to see what you what you're gonna come up with. Thank you. And the science is amazing. And the content you're gonna make after you get this. So I can't wait to see. So it's gonna be a lot of fun to it to be able to see that. And I know what's gonna happen. I know it. It's it has to be in the cards. You deserve it. So anyway, you look, this has been fantastic. I'd love to invite you back on another time to be able to talk more. And then maybe we'll talk more about about what's gonna happen with you with your graduate work. That'll be fun. But it's also, you know, if you want to check out Mackenzie, it's let me just make sure I have it right.

2:03:45 It's Mackenzie S E A at the end. So M C K E N C E S C S E A. I can't spell. I'll put in the link so everybody can see it. But check out the TikTok and the same handle for Instagram. Correct? There's an underscore because somebody stole my username. I've tried to argue with Instagram about it for years now to let me have it because it's a it's a count that nobody uses. It's a private account that's never had anything on it. And I'm like, please just give it to me. Just give it to me. Yeah, that's the worst justice. I think this is great. I want people to check it out and let us know how you feel about it. You know, reach out to you if they if they want to get more, they want to have a question about an animal. I'm sure you'll be able to answer it. I'll go on the list of things to be able to answer.

2:04:34 But absolutely, Kenzie, Mackenzie, this has been amazing. I really appreciate you coming. Like I said, it's been on my bucket list for a while. And I'm just really happy to have you on it. I would love to have you back on anytime. Of course, I would love to love to be back on this was very fun. Thank you, Mackenzie, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast was great to be able to get to know you to get to know how you got to where you are, how you got so many followers and just the amount of effort you put in to each of those pieces of science communication on every platform. I just think it's fantastic. I don't think we realize how much work goes into creating content these days and to be able to create good content, whether it's a video that you put up for five minutes and it goes viral. Or it's a video you spend, you know, 45 minutes to two hours on editing and making sure there's enough B roll to keep people engaged and to inform people of what there's do. It is harder than you think. Trust me as a content creator. It is not easy to put everything you need to put to make it not only to balance the entertainment value, the education value and the conservation value. It's a lot of work.

2:05:34 And I just love how Mackenzie will sort of stand up for herself online when you put yourself out as a content creator, you put yourself out to criticism and some criticism for me, especially like when I get Christmas is valid. Sometimes like the like, oh, yeah, I missed a little piece or I could have added to that piece and it's valid to acknowledge, you know, either in another video or in the comments. But then there are sometimes when they just come for your throat for no reason and you have to stand up for yourself. There's sometimes you have to wait and there's sometimes you have to stand up for yourself. And sometimes you have to get emotional. Sometimes you don't. And it's just really hard to balance that and making sure that you have people in your life to kind of spitball certain ideas of how to respond, making sure that you're calm and collective and making sure you take that 24 hour rule in my case anyway, or take a couple of hours just to wait and be able to respond because you don't want to get too emotional around it in terms of.

2:06:24 Not making your case because you're not thinking the way you want to think, right? That's really what it goes down to. But the way Mackenzie is able to balance that is phenomenal. The way she sometimes will, as she mentioned, be a little more emotional or sometimes not emotional and just respond in a scientific way and in a conservation way or an educational way. I just think it's phenomenal. And, you know, some of the topics, especially when it comes to the LGBTQ plus community and some of the things that she's probably heard in the response that she's had in a negative way that will get you there. And it's very difficult to watch people have to listen to that and have to go through that. But the way she responds, I have utmost respect for it. So I really love the way she does her content. So follow her. I'll put the links in the show notes.

2:07:06 I want you guys to get to know Mackenzie like I get to know Mackenzie is a real pleasure to have her on the podcast. I can't wait to have her back again. They listen to some more educational content as well as find out more about her and what she's up to. So thank you again, Mackenzie. And I want to thank you for listening. I would love to know what you think of the type of topics that Mackenzie covers, how she covers them. If you know her, you've been a follower for her for a while. Love to know what made you follower. I want to know what you think of Mackenzie. And if you have any comments on the way we do content, love to hear those thoughts as well. So just make a comment on YouTube if you're watching this on YouTube or you can hit me up on Instagram at how to protect the ocean. That's how to protect the ocean or go to speak up for blue.com. We have everything in contact with us. We have a contact page or you can just put the comment just right on the episode page. I want to thank you again for joining me on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the channel.

2:08:03 I'm Andrew Norsch, strong and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you soon and happy conservation.