Why therapist visibility matters more than ever (and how to stop shrinking) (with Dr Hayley Kelly)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about therapist visibility.

If you've ever found yourself hesitating to speak up in team meetings, questioning whether you are allowed to share your clinical insights or feeling like you need another decade under your belt before you can create a social media post about mental health, this episode is for you. We're exploring the fear of being seen, and why visibility as a therapist matters more than ever. Here to help us out with this topic is our guest today, Dr. Hayley Kelly. Hi Hayley.

[00:00:41] Hayley: Hello, Bronwyn. It's lovely to join you.

[00:00:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's so lovely to have you on the podcast. Could you please start off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:00:48] Hayley: Absolutely. So I'm Dr. Hayley Kelly. I'm a clinical psychologist. Uh, a veteran in the field. I suppose you would probably say after 15 odd years in practice. Uh, and I'm the CEO and founder of Therapist Rising. So basically I help therapists to stay therapists and, and stay safe while scaling their impact beyond the one-to-one therapy room. So I have a PhD in psychology and I am utterly obsessed with what I call and what I recently created, uh, which is Mental Health 3.0, which is really about moving our profession from this individual treatment modality that we have been indoctrinated into, uh, into an era of innovation and community level treatment and addressing concerns at a system level as opposed to just one person at a time.

[00:01:43] Bronwyn: I love everything that you do, and I listened to your podcast, which is called Therapist Rising as well, and one episode that struck me about a month ago, so about a month ago. I woke up and I was practicing really good technology, uh, habits, and I was scrolling through my podcast feed in bed, and then I came across your podcast and I was like, oh, I'm gonna listen to that straight away.

It really grabbed me because the title was Why I Can't Stay Quiet anymore, What Our Mental Health System Isn't ready to face. And I was like, yes, I'm really excited, really stoked. So I listened to that episode and I contacted you on that day because it really spoke to me. And you also had a LinkedIn post, related to that topic, and I was wondering if you could share with listeners just broadly what that post was about and what happened.

[00:02:31] Hayley: Yeah. Yeah. What happened? Well, a whole drama ensued after that. So, I work at, I work in the intersection, I guess, of therapy training and healthcare innovation. So I'm really about taking a stand for preparing therapists to lead a professional evolution. Our profession's evolution. I believe that the mental health system was probably never designed or fit for purpose to begin with, however, it is drastically clear now, um, that the mental health system is broken, and I would probably go as far as saying broken beyond repair.

And I think it's really important for us to start speaking to that because I, for one, and I can imagine that, that you, Bronwyn would probably feel the same. I'm sick of seeing friends, peers, colleagues become completely burnt out to the point where they feel like their only option is to leave the profession. I am sick of seeing early career psychs become so disillusioned, sometimes even during their training, like they haven't even graduated yet and they are becoming disillusioned with the field that they stepped into, so much so that they start questioning their choices. And is this really for me? Do I really want to pursue, uh, my degree and my... my qualifications only to step into a field that I don't actually know if I fit in it or if it's gonna be beneficial to me or the people that I wanna work with. I'm sick of seeing this stuff happen, and that's just, I think, the tip of the iceberg.

So I got to a, a breaking point fairly recently where I'm like, screw this. This is ridiculous. We need to start taking a stand as therapist like there has to come a point in time where we recognize that things are not working anymore and we have to be brave and willing, courageous enough to start having the conversation on a bigger stage. So I stepped onto that stage and I created a LinkedIn post, which went absolutely viral. Within hours of posting it, and I'm sitting there going, holy crap. Um, like I'm saying, all of these things that I feel really honest about, the post itself I don't think was harmful. It was certainly wasn't, wasn't hysterical. It's like I don't, I, it was really measured and I think it was really well communicated and it came across really well, and it spoke the truth. The truth of what, uh, because of its virality, I can imagine that lots of people agreed with.

And within five days of that post going viral gangbusters, like I think at at last check before everything went to hell in a hand basket, um, the post had reached something like 300,000 people or something ridiculous like that. It was crazy. Um, and then five days after I put it up, my entire LinkedIn account was shut down. So not just the post was taken down, my entire LinkedIn account was shut down, and I could not get an answer as to why I followed all of the procedures I submitted my verification documents. I put in, you know, like appeal after appeal, after appeal, and they just kept coming back with, um, this really vague answer of like, you have violated community standards, but they would not tell me which community standards I had violated... Why they had shut me down beyond that. I'm like, this is crazy. Like this is crazy.

And so since then, because I am neurodivergent and I definitely have a, uh, a flavoring of PDA, uh, I was like, right, you tell me I can't, I'm gonna see that as a really big invitation to do more. So basically I was like, you know, hold my beer. I don't drink, but metaphorically speaking, hold my beer... we are doing this. And so since that moment I'm like, this is clearly, this is a, a topic that needs to be spoken about. It's something that triggers people. I understand that. However, the reality is that we as therapists need to understand that what got us here is not gonna get us there. We, in the current system cannot expect to keep doing the same thing and expect a different or better result for both the professionals who work in the system, but also the consumers who are desperate for help that we can't provide because we're over capacity.

[00:07:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, there's a lot in that. I, I thought with your post, I thought it was fantastic. I agree with you. I thought it was measured, it was based on observation and I felt like with the post, you didn't go too far beyond observation. And it's clearly true with everybody, we can all see or have examples or have our own experiences of burnout and feeling disillusioned and wondering, is this the right system for me? You know, I love working in mental health. I love helping people. All of us got into it 'cause we love helping other people. How effective can I be at doing that, um, when I feel like I can't make a post about depression without fearing that the regulator is going to come after me.

And I feel like that's what your post was getting to. It's like we wanna be visible... I guess one question that I have is that I think what happened to you is exactly what we all fear. It's like, you spoke out and then you were air quote punished for doing so by having your profile shut down. Um, what do you think this tells us or what can we learn?

[00:08:05] Hayley: I think it's really important to... because the, the average person listening to this is gonna go, holy crap, does that mean if I do this, the, the same thing's gonna happen to me? And I think it's really important to just take a deep breath, calm the nervous system for a second. I don't think what happened to me is necessarily, common, right? I don't think that every therapist out there when they start posting and having an opinion or, you know, posting tips about depression gets their entire account shut down. I don't think that's common. So please rest assured that it's unlikely that this is gonna happen to you.

But I think it is really important that as a collective, we see this as a blatant example of what happens when therapists have an opinion about the very topics and issues that we should actually have opinions about, that we should actually be speaking about... this is the crap that happens. And I think really importantly, like to me, this is a bit of a call to arms. Like this is like right. Uh, we can't continue to just sit here and do nothing. Like this is a great example of why things must change and why they must change now, and why we as a profession can't sit here and continue to wait to be saved because no one's coming to save us. So we have to take a stand.

[00:09:26] Bronwyn: That really stood out for me. I was gonna go to that next actually, because I think in your episode you said, look, nobody's gonna invite us to this table to change this system and to work with communities, we have to do it ourselves. And you gave some great examples of people from your incubator who, for example, had approached schools and being like, look, I see a problem here, can I help? And then they've managed to build something. Can you just tell us a bit more about why you feel like we need to be more visible and why that's important?

[00:09:53] Hayley: I think it's important because, well, I think there's, there's numerous reasons why I think it's important, but I think first and foremost there is a dire need for evidence-based quality information about mental health in the wider community. So from a statistics perspective, when we look at the people who are currently experiencing a mental health issue worldwide, the research that I've done, uh, at its super basic but face value was around, oh, I think it was something like 950 million people worldwide are currently experiencing a mental health issue. Yet worldwide, there's about a million therapists. The math doesn't math.

So we cannot even, like it is gonna take the rest of our lifetime, plus probably the next three generations to think that we are ever going to be able to curb the tide, to, to meet the demand, to effectively help these people given the limitations of that ratio, right. We cannot see everyone one-to-one when there is nearly a billion people who need our help, but only a million of us able to give it. So I think from the perspective of we need to start flooding the market with evidence-based quality information on mental health, it's gonna be able to help people who need that help. Because right now there are people currently doing that who are not therapists. We've got life coaches out there. We've got trauma survivors out there that don't necessarily have the qualifications or the education and training. We've got a lot of people like Joe Blo down the street creating posts from his basement, right? There are a lot of people out there who are filling that vacuum because we are so regulated and scared, that we are not doing it. So of course they're going to step in and do it.

So I think from a responsibility and ethics perspective, we need to make mental health, education, knowledge, resources, more accessible to the wider community, and we are the best people to bring that information. I can't think of better people to do that.

[00:12:02] Bronwyn: No. 100%. So why do you think we are conditioned to shrink? Because, okay, so I've had listeners reach out to me and be like, Bronwyn, how do you have a podcast where you speak out? I don't actually think I do something that revolutionary. I mostly get experts to come onto the podcast and I ask them questions. It's not necessarily me speaking out, but I'll get younger, early career psychs being like, you know, how do you do that, because they are so scared. Why do you think that we are conditioned to shrink in this profession, especially in our early years?

[00:12:30] Hayley: I think there are a lot of factors at play here, and I think that we're dealing, of course, with things like imposter syndrome, yes, for sure. But I think we're also, I think there's also some competency confusion that comes into what a- again, what I would consider a very rapidly evolving profession. So we are sitting here saying, I, I need to make sure that I tick the boxes on these competencies while at the same time not actually recognizing that one of our competencies moving forward into this brand new profession that is unfolding before our eyes, one of those competencies for me is going to be around visibility and digital literacy. So I see digital literacy as a professional competency, but at the moment I think we're still very stuck in competency confusion. Like we, we've plastered ourselves into this little box of here's what we can do, here's what our competencies currently are, and that's all we can do. So when we start to think about doing anything that's not in that very strict type box, obviously it's gonna create angst and anxiety. And that's for people who, generally speaking, if you sort of look at us from a psychological profile, so whether you use sort of like schema or whatever it might be, um, we tend to be a, a, a certain flavor of people, right?

So therapists generally speaking are quite risk averse by nature, which makes us usually highly ethical. We follow rules, we do all the things we're supposed to do. Makes us wonderful therapists, right? Because we are really concerned about making sure we're doing the right things and not hurting other people. Wonderful for being a ethical one-on-one therapist. Not so great when things are starting to change and we actually need to help people beyond the confines of what we do one-to-one and what we do competency wise. I think that's the first thing. We are so tightly regulated and tightly confined that anything that feels like it's not that, is danger.

[00:14:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, the box is very tight.

[00:14:25] Hayley: Absolutely. And again, I. Wholeheartedly believe that it's time that the box started to expand and, and get with the times, and digital literacy and visibility being one of those things that starts to need to shift.

I also think there's this significant fear of, um, it's the, the feeling of being watched. Right there is this constant feeling because we are regulated... regulated feels like we are constantly being watched. So our Board, our peers, colleagues, the public can feel like invisible eyes on us. So there is this constant fear of being reported, misinterpreted, doing it wrong. All of that feels very, very real for us. And so again, if that fear is there, the easiest thing for us to do is not touch the scary thing, don't do anything that's gonna feel like it's going to potentially increase being watched or that feeling of eyes on us. And of course, when you're creating a podcast or going on socials, creating psychoed content, whatever it might be, of course the amount of eyes on us goes up, and so the fear goes up with it.

[00:15:33] Bronwyn: It's really scary. You've just named something that I didn't, uh, I didn't wrap words around, but you've described it quite well and I think that is a very real fear for a lot of us. Even with myself, I'm thinking like if I put out a podcast episode, is somebody going to be like, oh, you didn't cite a paper when you said this thing. And then it would just take one person to say that and then I'll be like, oh, no, no. Like, ah, like, and just shrink and be really scared. And I know other people have that when they put out psychoeducation and it's like, this is basic stuff from, say the first 10 pages of a CBT textbook, but they'll be incredibly scared that somebody will disagree with them. And I completely empathize and understand.

I guess like how do we, how, how do we get outside this box, 'cause it is really scary. And like you say, we are, we do have these kinds of personalities where we do wanna follow the rules and we do wanna be helpful. And we feel like if we just follow the rules and that's the maximal way to be helpful, how do we, how do we be more visible?

[00:16:31] Hayley: So it's a great question. Um, I think that the, the point that I would add before we sort of move into that is also the, the, top down policing that happens, 'cause I'm thinking more about the application of this to particularly early careers, um, and people who are still coming through their training and things like that. And I think for a long time, supervision has focused on keeping our supervisees in their lanes. And, and I, I don't think, like, I, I think that's a, that's a fairly controversial thing to say and I know there's a lot of supervisors out there who would disagree with that, and that's totally fine.

Um, but for, I think for the most part, supervision is about creating more of the same. Right, creating more of the same. And it very much focuses on, here are the things that you could do better and be more like the therapist you're supposed to be, right? So be more like the therapist who sits in this tiny little box, instead of really supporting our early careers and supervisees in the important aspects of things like innovative thinking.

So instead of seeing someone who's displaying something like really innovative thinking, usually it's the case that you'll go, oh shit, like alarm bells, alarm bells. They're thinking, they're thinking innovatively here... bring them back into the box. So we start to say things like, you know, do you really wanna do that? You know, that might get you in trouble. You know, is that ethical? All of the things. And of course we need to ask those questions and make sure things are ethical and safe on all of the stuff.

But I think for the most part, um, we have tended to downplay, and almost subtly beat out any degree of innovative thinking in our supervisees. And also there's this flavor of identity suppression that happens in our profession as well. And I, I'm sure you would probably, you would probably get this too, bronwyn, right? Like we are taught as therapists to remove ourselves from the therapeutic process to a large degree, or it becomes like this lovely dance and all of the things. But for the most part, we are, we are taught to remove ourselves, our personality, our story, our opinion in favor of becoming more clinical, more neutral, and in doing so, we're sacrificing ourselves. And also like I feel like there's this unspoken, um, I guess rule behind that or story behind that, when we do that, when we are like, you should remove and become very neutral and very clinical. I, I, feel like it's almost saying like you can, like you cannot take up space here. You cannot have an opinion. Your opinions don't matter. Your personality is a detriment to the therapeutic process. Like whatever it might be. I feel like there is this story behind it that almost vilifies our identity, where actually our identity is a really important part, I think, of the next phase of where things are starting to move.

So what we really need to start, I think, becoming witness to is competency expansion is absolutely needed. Today's competencies, they are just not matching what is currently happening in the world around us? So I, I keep saying things like therapists are being trained for the 1950s, like we're being trained for 1950s practice models rather than getting them ready to work in a 2025 world and beyond, we are still teaching our therapists to work in a world that no longer exists and is only getting further and further away from what actually exists out there. So I think as soon as, as a profession, we can start to accept that that is the reality and start making progress towards that change... I think this is a really important part of the process. So awareness being number one.

Then where do we go from there? And I think this comes down to, well, what does visibility mean for you? How are you going to become more visible? And if it comes back to the idea we were talking about, Bronwyn, around how do you wanna serve? Are there things that you can be sharing with the community, whether that's other professionals and therapists or the general community, the general consumers of mental health out there... are there things that you could be sharing with a, a wider audience that would really benefit the community as a whole? And once you start to identify that, then it's about working with your nervous system and any of the blocks to start doing that effectively.

[00:21:02] Bronwyn: What are the kinds of innovative things that you've seen in maybe early career psychs or later on that they've wanted to do, but it has been scary for them?

[00:21:12] Hayley: Yeah. Uh, everything and anything that doesn't look like traditional one-on-one therapy feels scary to our early career psychs and to, I think, again, to most psychs. Um, so I'll give you one example of one of our recent graduates who went through our incubator program. So I, I define innovation as anything that is going to meet the demands of the market in a new, improved way. So is it gonna do it more effectively than what we've currently got right now?

So one of our, um, amazing graduates, she came in and I remember her distinctly because before she signed up for the incubator, she said to me, Hayley, I don't know if I'm ready because I've, I only just graduated a couple of years ago. I don't think I've got, basically, I don't think I've got enough experience knowledge notches on my belt to really feel like I quote unquote belong in your community. I'm like, well, the fact that you're hearing, you're saying that and you're feeling that fear tells me that you're in the right place.

And so she started to think about how is it that she wants to start to impact and serve people beyond just the one-to-one? Because she was like, this is gonna, I don't wanna do this forever. This sucks. Like I'm only a couple of years in and then I'm already like, I'm done. Like, I feel like I'm getting burnt out and all of the things. So she really focused on how can she start to create digital, um, products and information in her area of specialization that would start to help people beyond a one-to-one capacity.

So she started by creating, um, some information like psycho psychoeducation, digital products, so PDFs, eBooks, things like that. Of course she has to create some sort of, uh, marketing materials that go along with that. So she jumped onto, I think she had chosen, uh, Instagram as one of her platforms, and she starts creating posts on Instagram and it starts to get traction.

And from there, her idea was once I've started to, I guess, dip my toe in the water and start to create some more accessible mental health resources, I wanna create a course. I'm like, it's a great idea. And so she went about doing that. But again, it was this constant state for her of who am I as an early career to do this? Like, do I really have enough, insert whatever it is.

[00:23:33] Bronwyn: And what, what would your response to that be? 'Cause I think that would be quite a common fear. Like how do we, what would you say to say a listener who is thinking like, do I have enough to be able to do that, to create a PDF?

[00:23:46] Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I'm going to, my community gave me the nickname Fluffy Sledgehammer. So I, I just want you to bear with me that everything that I say, it might come across harsh, but it comes, it always comes from a place of compassion and deep respect.

So from a fluffy, sledgehammer place, um, I think it's really important to understand that this is not about you. It's not about you. It's not about us. And the quicker we can understand and. And I think take our ego out of this, like this, is not about us. It's not about us protecting ourselves at the expense of helping more people more effectively. This is about us helping more people more effectively, and if we want to impact more people, then we have to absolutely untie this from our ego. It's not about us.

So how can you start focusing instead of on you, how can you start- how can you start focusing on the people who need you, who need that knowledge and education, who need those resources, but they're currently not able to access them because you're too scared.

[00:24:51] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:24:52] Hayley: And I, again, I know that's, it's a hard pill to swallow, but it's not about us.

The second part of this is just really starting to think about, you know, what are some ways that I can just start to test the waters, right? Like is there something that you really small that you could do? Is it maybe just I'm gonna create, uh, you know, just a really short LinkedIn post on something that feels really safe? Okay, cool. Awesome. Always, always, we are going to be doing this in alignment with the ethical code, and in the ethical guidelines. So we're gonna make sure that we're abiding a hundred percent with the marketing guidelines and all of the rest of it that are, that are currently in place. So you're gonna make sure that, does this still fit with the guidelines? Am I still doing the right thing? Does it still tick the box? But I'm gonna start to test the water in terms of just playing and seeing how can I do this in a way that feels like a stretch in me a little bit, but it's still stretching me a little bit.

[00:25:56] Bronwyn: How do we cope with the first person who throws some shade at us and they're like, why are you doing this? Or, uh, what's, what's the research article for this?

[00:26:06] Hayley: Yeah. Um, it's probably safe to say that I've had my fair share of... Unsolicited feedback, uh, and advice

[00:26:16] Bronwyn: That's a very nice way of putting it. Go on.

[00:26:20] Hayley: well intentioned always. I am sure. I think like, I'm gonna speak to this from my perspective in terms of what's really helped me.. I've got a bunch of shade from people over the years. So over the last five years in particular. So before this, before I came in and, and started working in back in the mental health space and with other therapists, I was working with business owners, with entrepreneurs, high performance, all of the rest of it. And in those 10 years that I spent not working with therapists, I rarely got hate or shade. Like the on, yeah, on occasion, for sure. I've never received so much shade since stepping back in, and I think that's a really interesting phenomenon. I'm not here to judge, but I think it's just really important to, to note that because for the most part, our, the roots of our, system, of the, of the, basically of the mental health system, of psychology... We we're really conservative at our roots. Ultra conservative, probably for the most part. And I think that that is still, that still exists. And I think, um, one of the really interesting statistics I heard from, uh, a lawyer who we, we consult with quite a bit, he said, the vast majority of notifications to AHPRA in psychology in particular, so this doesn't stand for all disciplines under opera, just psychology, the vast majority of notifications come from other therapists, so we are more likely to be reported by a peer than the general public.

[00:27:56] Bronwyn: That does not shock me and it, and it feel like it should, but it does not.

[00:28:00] Hayley: Me too. I'm like, yeah, that's sad and also completely expected, right? So I think, I think for the most part, like what's worked for me is just like, okay, I'm just gonna accept the fact that we are at our roots ultra conservative, and it's still going to f-, that is going to color the landscape to a huge degree. So anything that I do say any way that I show up that is not 100% in alignment with what has come before it, it's probably going to get a degree of pushback. So I've just gotta accept that.

The other part of this that has made it significantly easier for me is I am, like, I have a being neurodivergent... I think this probably play, the more I learn about neurodivergence, I'm like, oh, that explains this. But for the most part, social justice and equity for me are a huge, incredibly important part of how I show up in the world like this is so important. One of my core values is ensuring that the world is a just and fair place.

So for me, I 100% believe that when I speak the work that I'm doing, the content that I create, I am doing so to make the world a better place. So when I'm in alignment with that, it is so much easier to work with the friction, 'cause I'm so clear on my why. I'm so clear on my values. I'm so clear that the things that I'm doing are in alignment with that, that any of the shade or noise that comes with that, I'm like, cool... I am still in alignment. So I understand that they're upset by this, and I, I understand where that comes from, but as long as I constantly check back in with the, the values, the ethical alignment, they can have their opinion. It still doesn't, it doesn't change my course. It doesn't change my course.

And I think for, honestly, I think for the average person, the clearer you can get on why this matters, why you're doing this... The easier it is to weather the storm. And I think Viktor Franco said something along those lines, or it might have been Nietzsche, I, I can't quite remember, but basically along the lines of, um, when you have a 'why' you can, you can weather anyhow, right? You can weather any storm. Doesn't matter how much shade comes because at the end of the day, I'm here to make the world a better place.

[00:30:28] Bronwyn: It really comes back to what you were saying before about releasing the ego, so it's not about you, so I can imagine if, if anybody does have any say, critical comments, it's like, look, it's not about you... You're aligned with your why and what you are doing. If they have any concerns it would have to be with that, and you know that what you're doing is trying to make the world a better place so it can kind of, I guess, water off a duck's back kind of thing.

[00:30:52] Hayley: Absolutely. I- absolutely, and I think the, the other really important part of that because obviously we're human and we are all blind to our own stuff a lot of the time, so I think really importantly, also surrounding yourself with a bunch of people who can ego check you whenever you need.

So, there are times when I'm like, yes, I'm in alignment and I'm on the path, and then people will be like, uh, I don't, let's just check in with that. I have really trusted people and peers around me who get it, who get the work, who understand what I'm doing, but they're basically there just to mirror and check in terms of are you actually still working in alignment? Is this a hundred percent ethical and values led? Like they're there to mirror back to me anything that I might not be seeing myself, because it is hard to be able to see that at all times.

So I think it's really important to surround yourself with a community of like-minded peers who can act as a bit of a check for you, but also can cheerlead you. Like, don't worry what Jenny from down the road just said, we've got you. You, you're doing amazing things.

[00:31:57] Bronwyn: Acknowledge that stepping out is scary, it's gonna come with some fear, and then aligning yourself with your values so you know why you're doing it, why you're, I guess undergoing this fearful process, taking small steps, regulating your nervous system, having those people who you're surrounded with to ego check you... This is a nice process. I like it.

[00:32:17] Hayley: Yeah, and, and I think it's, I get it like, at the end of the day, I don't think we actually have much of a choice, and I honestly believe that we are walk- we are walking into the future of mental health where these things are not going to just be nice to haves, they're going to be a requirement for you to understand and to integrate into the way that you practice. I don't think we have much of a choice moving forward from here if we want to continue making the impact that we want to have going forward.

So, the quicker we can understand that and say, okay, well what have I gotta do to bring myself up to speed, the better we're gonna be in the future. And I think our early career psychs are in a prime position for that.

[00:32:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, and when you said like, I don't think we have a choice, I feel like that's also from our personal perspective. So something I focus a lot on in this podcast is nonclinical careers. So I interview people who. Have careers say in organizational psychology or work just in different areas of psychology that aren't one-to-one therapy, because I wanna highlight to listeners that you can do other things. Um, it doesn't have to be that you sit in the therapy chair for one-to-one therapy for the next 40 years.

And I think like as I'm talking to more people. And, and learning about more from the podcast, I'm realizing as well that there are just a lot of people who can't wait to get out of one-to-one therapy after graduating. It's like two years in and they're burnt out and they're like, oh crap, I have to do this for 40 years. So when you say like, I don't think we have a choice. I'm like, I think from our own perspectives as well, many of us can thrive in that. There are a few of us who can do that for 40 years. There are some of us who, who can't, um, or don't want to. Knowing that there are other avenues available I think is quite reassuring. That we can still say in the profession that we love, but we can do that in other ways and make an impact. And it sounds like that's what you are, you are getting at as well.

[00:34:01] Hayley: 100%. And I think the, uh, this is going to, like, I'm gonna say this really definitively, but I, I don't want you to think that I know this 100%, I'm very confident though. I honestly believe in the next 10 to 15 years, the traditional private practice model that we currently have is going to die. I think it is going to evolve into something far different than what it looks like right now, and I don't actually think there's going to be many clinicians left working purely one-to-one with no diversification whatsoever in the way that they work. I just don't think that's going to be the reality that we see in the next decade or so.

So, 100%, yes. I think it's really important for us in terms of sustainability and longevity to recognize, does this actually suit you as a clinician to work in this way? Just because you've been told that this is the, you know, one, right, and only way, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's true. And if it don't wanna work like this for the next 40 years, what would be more sustainable? What would this have to look like, that you could say, yeah, actually this or some variation of this, would feel a lot more sustainable for me. So if I could offset 20 clients a week, for example, and do a couple of days of clinical work while then also doing online programs or courses, uh, creating digital content, doing not-for-profit or advocacy work, whatever it might be, but what is that version of sustainable for you? And I think that's a really important question.

[00:35:32] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. I guess like, I feel like we're tinkering around the edges right now just as a profession. It's like, so the self-care competency is coming in for psychologists, um, just a bit more explicitly, um, with the new competencies to be released in December this year. And I feel like we're talking more about how can we make sure that our workplaces are healthier for us and how can we focus more on self-care. Um, but I feel like we do need this more explicit, like how can we keep ourselves sustainable for the next 40 years? And that's probably diversification within your work that you do. I guess my question to you is how can we accelerate this? Uh, can you just like make more LinkedIn posts?

[00:36:09] Hayley: Yes. So absolutely. Um, I think the, I think that's really important because obviously there are significant limitations in this current version of the self-care model. We are band-aiding a broken leg in a lot of ways. Like, we're like, how can you just cope a little bit better with the ridiculous conditions that you are currently working in? How can we just make sure that you don't, uh, you know, emotionally and physically die before you get to the end of your career? And to me, that's not good enough.

So I really do think that true forms of self-care is going to come down to complete system disruption at a high level, but at an individual level, it is literally asking yourself that hard question of, okay, bubble baths are not gonna cut it. What does sustainability for me really look like? Is it more, um, outlets for creativity? Is it more space for group work or doing different types of, um, content creation or work? Is it a a different way to use my mental energy and skills? Whatever it might be, you have to start asking yourself that beyond just self-care bubble bars and, and cucumbers in your eyes, absolutely.

In terms of how do you accelerate this process? Um, I think again, it's first and foremost, finding people who can support you with the work is going to be paramount, because if you try to do this alone, you are going to fry your nervous system quicker than you can say nervous system fry. Um, it's really important to find, to find those people.

And then in terms of how do you start to take those steps forward, it is, as I said before, thinking about as an early career psych right now, not forever. I am not asking you to make a decision forever, but right now what is something that you really enjoy speaking about? Is there a particular topic that you feel really passionate about? Is there something that you know that you could add value to the wider community by sharing more of? And again, this is not a forever decision, you can change your mind later. But is there something right now that you could potentially just start leaning into a little bit more? And your interests, I can absolutely guarantee you will change as time goes on. You have permission to do that, but right now, what do you really like? What do you enjoy or what do you see the need for in the wider market? And then you can just start creating really easy forms of content like, um, social posts. They're one of the easiest things for us to start to create. And again, we have to make sure that we're doing it ethically, legally, all of the things, making sure that you've got disclaimers on any of the content or platforms that you, you have, but just start to create some posts around the stuff that you know, it's not therapy, you're not claiming for it to be therapy, but just, hey, here's some interesting facts.

[00:38:53] Bronwyn: Totally. And I can say for myself, like having done the podcast, I've gotten a vetted by a really experienced supervisor. I've gone through all the ethical codes, I've got disclaimers, and it actually makes me feel a lot safer. And it's, it's a lot of clarity. So like, literally memorizing the code of ethics where it says, don't make intemperate criticism of your colleagues. That's one of my favorite phrases intemperate criticism. Um, it's, it's basically don't be emotional. Um, don't emotionally criticize. Um, but yeah, it actually, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, but it does make it feel a bit safer that, you know, you can, I can handle this and I can speak up because I'm really confident in what I can and can't do.

[00:39:31] Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. And again, the the quicker we can realize that we are doing this to benefit the world around us, like the benefit to the world is bigger than my fear.

[00:39:41] Bronwyn: Such, such an important framing. One thing I wanted to ask you, which was a bit of a side step, but I think it's important, is that I think that early career psychs don't really- don't realize how much they know. And so they downplay how much they know and they're like, look, I don't know enough. I can't make this post about depression because I'm not an expert. I haven't got 30 years, I haven't got a hundred publications in this area, and so they're like, ah, I don't wanna, what would you say to a listener who is like, I don't know enough.

[00:40:09] Hayley: Yeah. Um. I would say again, really importantly, um, you know enough to, to get going. So there is this, uh, psychological phenomenon called the, the curse of, of competency where basically we are blind to our level of experience, expertise, and skills. So we become so, it becomes so second nature to us. It's unconsciously competent. We become so competent in our area that we believe mistakenly that this is basic information that everyone knows because it feels so basic to me, so therefore it must, that must generalize to everyone knowing this information.

But really importantly, you have to understand that there are very, very few people who have the privilege and the position that you have to go through the education system to be exposed to thinking models and methodologies and all of these things. You are so far ahead of the average person out in the community, that you have to absolutely recognize that there is a big gap between the average person out there and what you know, even if it doesn't feel like it. That's the fact and the reality of it.

I think the other really important thing is when the veteran of the field starts to criticize you because you are just a, a newbie, and what do you know? I've been in the field for 20 or 30 years. What do you know, Bronwyn? Why are you posting about depression? That comes from a place of conservative roots, not the reality, because if you are talking to me, I'm gonna be like, Bronwyn, go for it. Stop holding back. I don't care if your early career or if you've been in the field for 50 years, that does not make an ounce of difference. Your knowledge is still needed out in the big wide world. And here's the thing, anyone listening to this conversation is going to have significantly more evidence-based skills and knowledge than the average life coach who is currently out there creating content. So you my friend, are significantly more skilled than them. Why aren't you?

[00:42:19] Bronwyn: I often think that way as well. Something that I've got in my head is like, um, there's lots of things you can say about depression, for example, if I'm not feeling that space, somebody else is, and they might not have the knowledge, skills, and evidence-based background that I have in that, so it's gonna get filled either way. It's like, who do you want it to be filled by?

[00:42:36] Hayley: 100%. I was saying that earlier, but there's a saying that nature abhors a vacuum. It will fill a vacuum. So it's a, a natural phenomenon that happens. There is a gap, a huge gap out there for people seeking mental health knowledge. They want it. So if we are not out there filling that gap, people out there will. And it will be life coaches, it will be survivors, it will be the person who attended a two day retreat and now is a, you know, a trauma informed, whatever it might be. You as an early career psych, you even as a third year, are still going to be more significantly educated and have a much more robust evidence-based knowledge base than the average person out there.

So again, we have a duty to start bringing to, basically to , democratizing mental health. And you as an early career, you have a duty to actually start getting this out into the wider world. There are not enough of us to start getting picky about which therapists have enough experience versus those who don't. We all have enough experience.

[00:43:41] Bronwyn: Mm, 100%. I couldn't agree more, and I love what you said about, like, the privilege of this knowledge. I often think about that because I'm like, it is a real privilege. Not that like the training was easier, I didn't make sacrifices, but it is a privilege to be, have gotten my degrees and I have a PhD as well. And it is privilege to have that higher education. I do feel like it's a duty to be able to give back, um, and use that to support others.

And I think that, I don't know, hopefully that resonates with. A few listeners as well that yeah, we do have a massive privilege here in our knowledge and education, and we have a massive community in need.

[00:44:13] Hayley: 100- at that, that training and knowledge. That puts you five steps, probably more, but let's be conservative here. Five steps ahead of the average person out there. So if you're five steps ahead, why wouldn't you be trying to reach back and pull those people forward with you with what you've got right now?

[00:44:31] Bronwyn: Hmm 100%. Hayley, I feel like I could talk to you forever, but I don't wanna take up too much of your time, so I'll just ask you one final question, which is what do you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today?

[00:44:41] Hayley: I think if anything, I think the, the big thing that I want you guys to hear and understand is that we are at a literal point of evolution and there has never been a more important time, I think, as therapists than right now, because we have an opportunity to really step into a form of leadership where we get to shape what comes next in our field. As we said earlier, we can't sit around and and wait to be saved. No one's coming for us. We need to start building the system that is going to support us to better support the people of the world who need us.

So please recognize that visibility is not gonna be something that you can just opt into. It's not gonna be a nice to have. I do see visibility and digital literacy as a really huge core competency going forward for us, and I'm gonna be pushing hard for it to be a core competency going forward. The quicker you guys can hear that, understand it, get on board with it, the better the world's gonna be, the better you are- hopefully your career is gonna be because it's gonna feel a lot more sustainable for you going forward when you can start to play in these spaces and take up space.

[00:45:52] Bronwyn: Hmm. Thank you so much, Hayley. I've loved talking with you today. Thank you for sharing these things. I think they'll resonate with a lot of listeners and really speak to what they've been thinking and feeling, but maybe haven't articulated out loud. I feel like you're really good at that, at saying the, the things in our heads out out loud, which is wonderful. So thank you. And if listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch and join your wonderful programs, where can they find you?

[00:46:17] Hayley: Not on LinkedIn, uh, at the moment. So we'll be creating another LinkedIn, but...

[00:46:23] Bronwyn: Hayley Jelly will come back.

[00:46:25] Hayley: Yeah, I will, I will be, I'll be back, hopefully. Um, but I'm over on, uh, Instagram, my Instagram, we have started to be a lot more vocal around these, uh, particular points. So my Instagram is kicking off at the moment. You can come and hang out with me at Dr. Hayley Kelly over on Instagram. Uh, you can come and visit us on our website at therapistrising.com or obviously the Therapist Rising Podcast, which you can search on any major platform.

[00:46:49] Bronwyn: Great. Thank you so much again, Hayley.

Listeners, if this conversation resonated with you, please follow Mental Work, rate and review the podcast, and share this episode with a friend or colleague. The best way to get podcasts out there is to literally put it in somebody else's ear. Your support helps other early career mental health workers find us as well. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.