What are "core needs" and why they matter in therapy (with Amy Howell)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about what our core psychological needs are, why they matter, and how to help clients understand this. As early career clinicians, it can be difficult to figure out when client struggles stem from unmet needs, attachment wounds, trauma, or all of the above.

In this episode, we'll unpack what core needs are, how they show up in childhood, and adulthood, and practical strategies you can use to help clients begin meeting them. Our guest today is Amy Howell. Hi Amy.

[00:00:41] Amy: Hello.

[00:00:43] Bronwyn: It's nice to have you on the podcast. Could you please start off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:00:48] Amy: Thank you so much, Bron. I'm very happy to be here. So my name's Amy. I'm an accredited mental health social worker, an accredited EMDR therapist, and a mindfulness teacher as well. I've been practising for around 13 years now, and for the last four years I've been, um, a co-director of Centre Self Collective, which is a trauma informed mental health clinic in Brunswick, in Melbourne, and also Daylesford that I run with my colleague, Tamara Broughton.

I specialise in schema therapy, EMDR therapy, and I do a lot of mindfulness as well with my clients. I offer individual therapy as well as group therapy. And more recently I've moved into offering EMDR Immersives, which really brings together my interests in trauma, attachment, and core emotional needs.

[00:01:40] Bronwyn: Amazing. So it's pretty clear to me why we're talking about core needs with you then. All of the therapies you described really emphasise core needs. Maybe to start us off, when you say core needs, what do you actually mean?

[00:01:54] Amy: So core needs are the fundamental emotional and relational ingredients that every human being needs to feel secure in the world. So things like safety and stability, love, belonging, connection, the freedom to express ourselves, to share our preferences, our likes, our dislikes. Other core needs might include things like, us having a sense of all autonomy, a sense of competence, a sense of identity, and other things like play, rest, and healthy boundaries are important as well when we talk about core needs.

[00:02:31] Bronwyn: So I think the first question that many clients would understandably have about core needs is, is this a core need or is it a want or a preference? I think people grow up being like, food and water are core needs, but is play a core need? So maybe could you help us understand the difference?

[00:02:49] Amy: Yeah. So what we find is, I guess when we look at these particular needs, and when they are met enough of the time in childhood, we do see that people can develop a stable inner template so people can kind of grow up to believe things like, I'm safe enough, I matter, and the world is predictable enough.

And when they're not met, that's when the nervous system tends to adapt. So those adaptions become patterns that we might see in adulthood. So things like over functioning or avoidance or overachieving shutting down or seeking reassurance. So in the therapeutic landscape, it is really important and part of my work to do some psycho-ed with people around what is a core need and, and helping people understand, um, what they are. Because as you say, it's not something we're taught. It's not something that's easily necessarily accessible. Is this a need? Am I asking too much? Am I, am I, you know, all those questions can come up.

So yeah, a big piece of work I think is communicating to people that a core need is essential for psychological and relational wellbeing, whereas a want is maybe more of a strategy, um, that we might engage in as a way to meet a deeper need. So we find that core needs are typically universal, whereas wants might be more about a personal preference or maybe more contextual.

So, for example, I might jokingly tell my partner, I really need chocolate... and I might present a, present, a very compelling case as to why I need chocolate. But we really know that it isn't a core need. It's usually something that's linked to, I guess, me wanting some comfort or something like that, if that makes sense.

[00:04:40] Bronwyn: That does make sense.

[00:04:42] Amy: Great, yeah. But I guess in therapy, we do find that behaviour is far more nuanced. And so when people do come into therapy and they wanna explore some of the things that they're experiencing, I think clinicians develop skills in looking beneath the surface of that behaviour or request, if that makes sense. So if a client says something like, I'm just, I'm so exhausted, I just need to sleep... my kind of response would be like, okay, cool. Let's unpack that. Let's, let's talk about that. Is this a, a restorative need , or is this urge to sleep a avoidance strategy?

[00:05:23] Bronwyn: Yeah. You were relating core needs to psychological and emotional wellbeing in our lives and functioning well, and I wonder if you found that a distinction potentially for clients is that we could technically survive if we didn't have enough play or autonomy, but we wouldn't really be thriving. Like, these core needs are to help us thrive and have good wellbeing in our lives. Is that something that could help clients better understand the difference of what we're going for?

[00:05:55] Amy: Yeah, I think that it's, it's something that I try to communicate as something that's very essential. And when we do explore those things in therapy, it often feels like, things might feel a bit out of balance or things might be... something might feel missing. And so part of the exploration in therapy, I think, is checking and exploring are people getting all of those needs met, those psychological and emotional core needs.

[00:06:25] Bronwyn: So you mentioned earlier as well that if people don't have core needs met in childhood, then they might develop things in adulthood, like over-functioning. Could you just explain a bit more about how unmet childhood needs might affect our emotional, social, cognitive development and how we show up in our day-to-day lives?

[00:06:45] Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I think when core needs are met consistently, as I said, the nervous system internalises a sense of safety. So children can kind of then go on to learn, to regulate, to trust, to explore or to think flexibly. When needs are unmet, um, through things like say trauma, or neglect, chaos, or subtle misattunement, that's where we see children might go into more of those kind of survival states.

And those adaptations tend to become schemas. And for those that dunno what schemas are, these are kind of like deep beliefs that we hold about ourselves that are typically maladaptive. So there might be things like, I'm unlovable, I must perform to be accepted, or I can't trust people.

Coming back to your question about how it might affect us emotionally or socially or, or cognitively, we might see that people experience a lot of shame, maybe a fear of rejection, maybe some difficulties regulating their emotions. Socially, I think we might see things like people pleasing, maybe avoidance or yeah, that sense of mistrust. And cognitively people might go on to develop some rigid beliefs or self blame, maybe even some hyper vigilance. So these patterns make perfect sense as survival strategies from when we're younger, but we tend to find that they become very limiting in adulthood.

[00:08:16] Bronwyn: I'm aware that there's a link between unmet core needs and attachment styles. Could you take a through example of how the two are connected? Let's say that there was an inconsistent caregiver for a child, and sometimes the caregiver would be kind and attuned, but then at other times they could be frightening and angry, how might this impact somebody's attachment style later on?

[00:08:40] Amy: Yeah, that's a really good question. I suppose the best way to kind of speak to this is, I guess to highlight that we know that when these needs are consistently met, that we tend to develop more of a secure attachment. If some of those things are missing, like some of the things you were describing just then about maybe there were moments where it-, things felt really frightening or whatever, we might see a bit of an anxious attachment style or avoidant attachment or disorganised.

So we do tend to find that these patterns shape how we interpret relationships in adulthood. They're often at a very subconscious level, but they do influence how we trust, how we cope, how we seek closeness, or how we maybe respond to stress. So over time we can see a link between unmet needs and those attachment styles. They can contribute to anxiety, depression, relational conflict, or somatic symptoms because the nervous system is-, might still be reacting as if those early conditions are present.

[00:09:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I guess clients might not be aware of these subconscious things like you mentioned as well. Like they may not understand that perhaps a caregiver that was not there for them consistently led to the child having to rely on themselves, which then led to an avoidant or a dismissive attachment style. It's kind of like nobody's there for me. I guess I have to do it myself. And they could be applying that in their own romantic relationships then, but they may not realise all of this at all.

[00:10:15] Amy: 100%. Yeah, people might, in that instance, be very hyper independent.

[00:10:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. So what are some signs that early career clinicians can look out for, which might suggest that a client's core needs were not met? Are we just looking at them being like probably some core needs stuff here or there tangible signs?

[00:10:34] Amy: I think, um, tuning into what's happening for people emotionally, relationally, looking for those patterns, I think is a really good starting point. So you might be asking yourself questions like how do they go with regulating their emotions? Do they experience patterns of emotional numbness or chronic shame? And really trying to, yeah, look for the patterns for the person. You can kind of ask some questions around people's experience with closeness or do they have repeated unhealthy relationship patterns maybe? Do they engage in that people pleasing or withdrawal? And I think as well, behaviorally, we might look at things like, yeah, is someone perfectionistic? Do they have rigid rules? Are they avoiding, are they chronically busy? Do they have an inner critic?

So I think looking out for all of those things is a really good starting point. And maybe a useful question might be, if this behaviour had a voice, what need would it say it's trying to protect?

[00:11:40] Bronwyn: And I guess for clients to be able to answer that, you'd need to do the psycho-ed beforehand about what core needs are and get them to think in that way so that they can have some insight there. I think that's a really good question.

[00:11:52] Amy: Yeah. And as you're kind of gathering all of that information as well, I think those patterns are very important clues for our, our case formulations that help us sort of paint that picture of, of what could be some of those unmet needs potentially.

[00:12:06] Bronwyn: Yeah. And it, it sounds like you're doing this in a nonjudgmental way as well, because some of the behaviours that our clients could be doing to get their core needs met, like feeling a sense of safety and stability, they may move house every six months or something like that. And we don't wanna be like, oh, well you're a bit silly, kind of thing, we wanna help them understand that what they're trying to do is to seek safety and stability, but it's actually impacting them, right?

[00:12:32] Amy: Yeah.

Yeah.

[00:12:33] Bronwyn: So being nonjudgmental is important.

[00:12:35] Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, you know, just as you were talking, I was thinking a bit about some of the things that I, I see in, in therapy and yeah, I guess when we are determining like that difference between like a need or a want, we really want to be non-judgmental when we're having that, that conversation.

Esp- I've, I was thinking about some examples maybe when people might say something like, oh, I need my partner to text me like every hour. And, you know, and I think that's where when we are exploring people's upbringings and we're exploring people's attachments or their trauma experiences or whatever it is, you know, being able to explore in a, in a nonjudgmental way. I might be asking questions like, what does that give you, needing your partner to text you every hour? What happens if that doesn't happen? Or when did you first learn this? Because yeah, people can feel confused or unsure about how to get those needs met and, and where's the kind of line around how do I meet these needs in a healthy way? So in, in that instance, the core need-, there could be core needs underneath that, there could be a core need of maybe emotional safety or reassurance or needing some security in, in the connection.

So we wanna always validate the underlying need and support people to help them to meet them in healthier ways or meet them themselves, rather than reinforcing maybe some behaviours that just temporarily soothe them, if that makes sense.

[00:14:13] Bronwyn: It does make sense. And I'm also thinking about the consequences as well. In your example, it's like if the person is saying, I need my partner to text me every hour, that may help them in the short term reduce any anxiety. But in the long term, that could actually push away the partner. The partner is like, I love you and I, I want to text you, but I'm also working. And so it may create a sense of frustration with the other partner and may push the other partner away. So it is looking, how can we meet that need in the context of our relationships and in a way that'll help you in the long term.

[00:14:48] Amy: Yes, exactly.

[00:14:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah. Um, so I guess one thing that clinicians may worry about is over pathologizing. This can happen in clinical practise where it's like a core component of schema therapy is looking at unmet core needs, and this is usually in the context of a family upbringing, and people might think that this approach is parent blaming essentially. So how can we balance acknowledging unmet needs without parent blaming essentially?

[00:15:18] Amy: Yeah, what a juicy question I, and I think that's a really fair concern to have. It is, it is common for clinicians to naturally worry about that line of acknowledging unmet needs and over pathologizing. And I think if, I mean for starters, I think if you're reflecting like on that, am I over pathologizing or you're holding that concern, it probably reflects good clinical practise, actually, I think that's probably a good sign. Um, 'cause it shows that you're critically reflecting about the work that you are, you are doing.

I'm having a few thoughts about this question actually. For me, a lot of this comes back to, I think the lens that we, that we use, our training and our therapeutic frameworks shape how we understand people. So as a social worker for example, we're, I think we are actually trained to move away from pathologizing, we don't diagnose at all, for example. And we really wanna stay anchored in the client's kind of lived experience, their language and their understanding of their own story.

So we might focus on questions like how does this make sense in the context that you grew up in? How did you have to adapt to that? And when we're exploring unmet needs specifically, I don't think it's ever really about allocate, allocating blame or trying to shift responsibility. It is about understanding a context, what was missing, what was available. Again, what did you have to do to kind of stay connected, to stay safe or stay afloat? I mean, there is a very important distinction between understanding and, and excusing as well. Sometimes acknowledging harm is absolutely necessary as well. Sometimes people who were genuinely harmed through abuse or neglect, naming responsibility can be an important part of healing. And it helps clients separate what they took on as my fault from what actually belonged, I guess, to an, an adult.

But when it's not those things, and we are looking at ordinary, maybe human limitations or even intergenerational patterns or systemic pressures that shaped a caregiver's capacity, I think it's really interesting if we were to fo- just for a hypothetical, if we were to follow the, the blame path, I think very quickly we'd figure out that we'd be like, how far can we go back, you know? Um, because it's, it's never about one person. It's never about, um, there's so many things that contribute to someone's capacity to meet someone's needs, right? We know that everyone was or is doing the best that they can with the tools and resources that they have. And it's often generations of coping and survival if we, if we choose to go down that pathway.

But I'm going on a little bit of a rant there. I just wanna add that no parent can perfectly meet every need all of the time. It's actually not possible. So the question is whether or not it's, it happened, there was enough safety or there was enough repair, or emotional availability around the inevitable mis attunements that can happen. So by framing it this way, I think we, we are normalising... that's friendly to clients and to families and parents rather than pathologize. Because clients, families, parents, we all have certain limitations. Does that make sense, Bron?

[00:18:44] Bronwyn: Yeah, it does, absolutely. And I really liked how you started your response as well by saying that you were interested in the client's perspective and the language they use. Because a common schema, when I think of this over pathologizing, potentially parent blaming is enmeshment. So in Western cultures, if you don't have that autonomy and independence enmeshment equals bad. But in collectivist cultures, it's often that enmeshment is the rule, not the exception. And it is a appropriate and culturally good to be able to be involved in other people's lives and you rely on the collective. So I think even cross-culturally when we're looking at clients' concerns, it's really important to acknowledge their context, their language, how they perceive things, rather than automatically assuming that it's pathological.

[00:19:31] Amy: 100% agree.

[00:19:32] Bronwyn: I also really liked how you were pulling out, look, it's really appropriate that if somebody has experienced abuse, neglect, it is appropriate to be like a child should not have experienced that. That was not okay.

[00:19:44] Amy: I think that's why I really love schema therapy, so much as well. And I guess we know that like schema therapy was created as like that extension of like CBT and it was kind of developed in, in the framework of working with really complex presentations and it absolutely has the capacity to sit within that diagnostic kind of con context as well. But I just love that the language of unmet needs just feel so deeply human. And I think that's part of the reason why I'm really drawn to it. It really does have that capacity to normalise people's experiences rather than pathologize. It's normal to have unmet needs. Um, it's normal for caregivers to have limits, and it's possible to meet those needs differently in adulthood. So I really-, that's one of the reasons why I really love schema therapy.

[00:20:37] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. And I feel like it's very normal, the survival responses that children have to those unmet needs. It's very easy, I find, to explain to clients that like, of course, if you did not have somebody who was there for you, you would of course had to rely on yourself and you would've, um, developed these ingenious ways of navigating your environment. If there was no safety, maybe you retreated to an internal world that felt safe for you, and you're carrying that around with you today... I am like, it all makes sense!

[00:21:04] Amy: Absolutely. It's just unfortunately we outgrow those, those coping strategies.

[00:21:10] Bronwyn: Exactly! And then it's so easy to explain, for example, the internal world one. It's like, but now you're going into an internal world for five hours a day and that conflicts with your adult responsibilities to go to work. We need to develop different ways. I find it such an easy linkage, and it sounds like you feel similarly.

[00:21:28] Amy: Yes, it's great to nerd-out with you on schema therapy.

[00:21:31] Bronwyn: Always, always happy to nerd out on schema!

So maybe we can go into what are some practical strategies that clinicians can use to help clients identify their core needs? This might be a foreign concept to many clients. Are there some ways that you have found helpful in helping them begin to identify what their needs are?

[00:21:51] Amy: I think when I started out in schema therapy, look, I think it felt really big. I was like, oh my god, how am I possibly ever gonna learn all of these schemas and all of these modes? And so it felt like really big and, and daunting. Some like really brief kind of recommendations... Um, I did really enjoy reading, Reinventing Your Life by, by Jeffrey Young. Um, if, yeah, even though I think it's really corny to refer to Schemas as life traps, I did really enjoy the book. And I think when I was learning more about like, the schemas and understanding how these things show up in people's lives, I did really like the podcast called The Good Mood Clinic.

[00:22:28] Bronwyn: Yeah, I used to listen to that, yeah.

[00:22:30] Amy: Yeah, I used to really like that, that one. But yeah, and I mean, there's all, there's just so many great trainings and, and resources out there I think to, to get started. But in, in terms of, in the therapy room... I mean, maybe that's even a recommendation in its in itself. A big fan of Schema, I'm a big fan of EMDR. They're very powerful modalities to use, I think when exploring this, this kind of, this kind of stuff.

But when you're in the room, I think just paying attention to the client's body as well can be really good. If you see shifts in the body, like somebody taking a really deep breath, or if there's tears or if there's a softening in the shoulders, they might be some signs that you might have named something that really matters. So I think being able to slow things down in the room, pacing is really important. Clients often need those right con conditions to sort of really have those "aha" moments or, um, for these sort of topics to really land. I, I am a big fan of tools as well. We do have a tool on our website, it's a Emotional Core Needs Checklist, actually.

[00:23:43] Bronwyn: Oh, cool.

[00:23:44] Amy: Um, yeah, it's on our resource page. It's, it's, and that's a really accessible way for clients to explore which needs feel met, which needs feel unmet, and where there might be some gaps. So it can really open up, I guess, some really beautiful conversations in sessions if, early career clinicians want to download something like that.

[00:24:05] Bronwyn: I'll definitely add to that, to the show notes. really liked your comment about observing the client's body as well. I have found that silence is an interesting response, it might be processing or something hit hard. And likewise, I find that in congruence between what the client is telling me and their tone of voice can be very interesting and reflecting that back to them.

So for example, you just told me insert horrible experience here yet the way you talked about that, I noticed that you said that quite matter of fact, that's interesting. So that can be like, maybe they had to survive and just get through those experiences without really checking in with themselves emotionally. So yeah, I really liked your observation there.

[00:24:53] Amy: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's so fascinating how we're actually not very good at being connected to the body. I think, you know, it's, it's very fascinating what, what comes up when we explore that stuff. I think that's a great example.

[00:25:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. What are some practical ways to help clients begin to meet their core needs? So we've gone through like identifying them, they're aware of it, they're aware of how it's showing up in their life. How do we actually go about meeting these core needs?

[00:25:23] Amy: It can be done in, in a few different ways. I think, yeah, we can go down the route of exploring it, like at that kind of cognitive level or a behavioural level, or it might be about doing some re-parenting. It might be about doing some imagery rescripting or some EMDR processing. And so I think figuring out what is gonna be best for the person that's sitting in front of you and you're working with, it will be really tailored to what that looks like.

Once we name some of those unmet needs, it is about kind of co-creating and planning with, with a client what they might want to explore or, or do. And, and they might, it might be about setting-, doing some of that work in session and then seeing what they might want to translate outside of the session and integrate that more into their lives.

[00:26:18] Bronwyn: I'm just thinking of an example. Let's say the unmet need was play and spontaneity. It's like in session you may do something you've never done before. Let's sing a song. I don't know. But it may be, yeah, co-designing with your client. What would it look like if that part of you that wanted to be playful and spontaneous, got to do what they wanted to do, and how would you go about meeting that little child who wants to play and be spontaneous in your day-to-day life? How would you go about, what's the littlest step that you could take towards that? So yeah, co-designing that in your day-to-day life.

[00:26:51] Amy: Yeah, okay. So yeah, if we are looking at something like play, I think, yeah, we might do some exercises where we actually do connect with, what they liked as a child, as maybe as a starting point to kind of explore, were you, were you the sporty kid? Were you the arty kid? Were you, like, what were you like, you know? And kind of building from there, or that can be a point to get some data, I suppose.

And then just exploring with them what feels comfortable for them to do outside of the session. Is it starting off with, I don't know, going to see like some comedy shows or something and being able to laugh with people? Or is it going to an improv class? Is it going for a bike ride? Like, what does that actually look like for you? And yeah, exploring it with someone.

[00:27:39] Bronwyn: Yes, definitely. And I don't know about you, but I also found like reading books or listening to podcasts or getting information from other schema therapists or EMDR therapists about this really helpful. So literally I have bought worksheets where it's like core need, here are things that you can do with your client, and I found that helpful.

[00:27:58] Amy: Oh, that's awesome. I love that.

[00:27:59] Bronwyn: So I guess it's just like, you don't need to generate all of this from your own head, is what I'm trying to convey to listeners. Um, there are, there are ways to go about, um, I guess learning about this.

[00:28:11] Amy: Yeah. absolutely.

[00:28:12] Bronwyn: Yeah. We've covered a lot of ground in this short time. What advice would you give to early career clinicians who may feel unsure, overwhelmed about the complexity of working with people who have unmet needs or attachment difficulties in their practise?

[00:28:28] Amy: What a great question. Well, first of all, I think you are not meant to know everything, truly, so let's start with that. I think curiosity and humility and reflective practise matter far more than having the answers. This work isn't about, yeah, having all the answers. It's not about perfection. It's about staying present and noticing your reactions as well, and being open to learning.

I also would really like to encourage that new clinicians take the time to find their own style and obviously whatever modality you choose to, to train in, to make sure that you are doing things like case formulations as well. I think a good case formulation is like a compass and it helps you understand what's happening beneath the surface, why patterns exist, and where to direct the work. When you have that grounding, the complexity becomes less overwhelming and helps you stay on track, I think.

There can be a lot going on for people or maybe the modality that you are using can feel really big, but if you can really hone in on what you are wanting to be working towards and always coming back to that, I think that's really, really good practise and staying on track with those case formulations.

Other advice that I'd give, I think, uh, I am sure you probably get this a lot on your podcast actually, Bron, but I think good supervision and peer support is so, so essential. Having a space where you can think and feel about the work that you're doing, not just manage it alone, 'cause it can be quite isolating this, this work. And one of the things that we run at my clinic at CSC is, um, we have a clinical skills group for EMDR and also schema therapy. They're two separate groups and the group is entirely focused on deliberate practise.

And I, yeah, I find that, once you kind of do a training, it can feel really daunting transferring some of those skills like immediately in the therapy room. So having a supportive group where you can, um, practise skills, try to find your language around, okay, how do I explain this to a client? How do I introduce this? How do I develop my own, kind of, script for this? And we, yes, we do actually, uh, lots of role plays as well, which is also so cool because yeah, we might like have like the same script or case scenario that we are working on and you watch and people are go around the room have a, having a go at practising a skill or explaining a concept. And it's, it's really cool to see, um, you know, just expanding your mind to how other people work. So I highly recommend finding some groups, um, like that.

[00:31:10] Bronwyn: That is so cool. I completely agree with you that we can do training and you know, having done the schema training myself, it's like the first training is going through the schemas and then the second training you might have some more in depth information on the schemas, but the actual practising say of chair work or imagery risk scripting, that can feel really daunting. You actually need to do it to get better at it. So I really admire that you are undertaking and offering those groups and I'll make sure I put those links in the show notes.

[00:31:37] Amy: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I feel like again, like it's, um, you're so right that actually being able-, 'cause even if you kind of have an idea of how to do chair work or how to do imagery re scripting, it needs to be tailored differently depending on the schema or on the mode. And so, yeah, you've gotta really, um, hone in on what you're doing.

[00:31:59] Bronwyn: Exactly. Exactly. Well, Amy, what do you hope that listeners will take most of all from our conversation today?

[00:32:06] Amy: I hope that... early career clinicians can walk away from this knowing that, I guess at its heart the work that we do is, is quite relational. It is about relationships, and you don't need to be perfect or have every intervention memorised. So when we are working with people on addressing or working towards meeting unmet needs, when you help someone feel seen or you help feel someone feel safe enough or accepted with you, you might already be meeting the needs for people that weren't consistently met. And that kind of presence is very powerful, sometimes even more powerful than any technique. So, yeah, I just wanna put that out there.

[00:32:58] Bronwyn: Really good point because yeah, like safety, stability, predictability, consistency, all core needs as well. And so yeah, I can completely see how practitioners can meet that need with their clients. Um, thank you so much for the reassurance and guidance today. If listeners wanna learn more about your get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:33:17] Amy: Yeah, you can find me at Centre Self Collective. We're on Instagram. We're on LinkedIn, or you can go on our website www.centreself.com.au. And yeah, as I mentioned, we do have that resource on core emotional needs checklist available. So if you do want to download that, you can get that from the website.

[00:33:36] Bronwyn: Wonderful. Thanks again, Amy. It's been a real pleasure.

Listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, please follow the podcast, read and review it, and share it with a friend or colleague who might benefit. Thanks again for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Catch you next time and have a good one. Bye!