Psychosocial hazards for mental health workers (with Jason van Schie)

[00:00:04] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about a big workplace issue that often flies under the radar. It's called psychosocial hazards. If you've ever felt drained by relentless job demands, isolated in your role, or stuck in a toxic workplace culture, then this episode is for you.

These are just some of the psychosocial hazards that can take a serious toll on your wellbeing. With a new Australian code of practice now in place, it's more important than ever to understand your rights, the risks, and what to do if your workplace isn't stepping up.

In this episode, we're going to break down what psychosocial hazards look like in psychology settings specifically, and give you practical steps to protect your wellbeing at work. Here to help us out with this topic is our guest, Jason van Schie. Hi Jason.

[00:00:54] Jason: Hi, Bronwyn. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:55] Bronwyn: It's so lovely to meet you and to have you on the podcast. Could you please tell us who you are?

[00:01:00] Jason: Um, I've got a background in organizational psychology. Um, I've been registered since 2005 working outta Perth, so it's really nice to meet another Perth psychologist.

[00:01:07] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:01:07] Jason: Who, um, you know, is only literally just around the corner.

[00:01:10] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:01:11] Jason: ...from, uh, where our office is in Bentley.

Um. So I started working in organizational psychology in 2005, started where most org site grads do, uh, in kind of psychometric assessment and selection. So things like personality testing, running assessment centers, that sort of thing. Uh, after doing that for a couple of years, I got into a fitness for work type area, so traveling to mine sites primarily and delivering training and consulting around things like fatigue, risk management, uh, fitness for duty, alcohol and drugs.

Uh, but what was really interesting in that is this shared responsibility between the workplace and the worker. So it's, uh, all well and good to expect workers to come into work not fatigued and make sure that they're alert, um, but to do that, the organization needs to think what's within their control. So things like roster arrangements, working hours, commuting arrangements, uh, sleeping arrangements, the sorts of food that, um, the, the company provides to people when doing fly in, fly out work, for example. All those things are important, um, to make sure that people can come to work well rested.

Which ended up being a really good backdrop for the area I found myself in. Uh, I went out on my own in 2013, but in 2017 I got really interested in psychosocial risk management. I know we're gonna be talking about that today. Um, but really understanding that workplace mental health is a shared responsibility between the employer and the employee. And thinking back to, um, you know, how fatigue is managed in a workplace, yes, we do want people to practice self-care and get good sleep. And I guess in a, in a workplace setting with workplace mental health, you'd be thinking, practice self-care, be mindful, be resilient. But equally, you know, it's important for the organization to think what can we do to make sure that work doesn't suck, to take Adam Grant's terminology and make sure that it is actually mental health promoting rather than harming.

Um, and so yeah, started, um, exclusively working in the psychosocial safety space since 2018 and been building a business, FlourishDx since, then. Uh, we have about 20 staff, about 10 of those are psychologists, uh, who provide consulting and support to our clients around Australia and, and actually internationally now as well.

[00:03:10] Bronwyn: Amazing. So it sounds like it was something that you were observing in your work, like that psychosocial hazards were important. Is that right?

[00:03:18] Jason: Uh, yeah. Well, I guess in my work, um, I was, I, I was actually, yeah, when I started consulting in 2013, I never had an interest actually in working in mental health.

[00:03:29] Bronwyn: Oh?

[00:03:29] Jason: Yeah. I was, I was more interested and that's why I went down the org psych route rather than clin psych route. I was more interested in team effectiveness, high performance, that sort of thing. As you could probably imagine, I was, I was interested in sports psychology, being a young male and, you know, interested in more the positive aspects of psychology rather than, you know, deficiency. Um, but I found there wasn't many jobs for it.

So I thought, well, organizational psychology is still focusing more on the positive aspects of psychology rather than the the illness side. So I started to get into that and then I guess what got me interested in, in mental health was we had more and more companies approaching me to run lunch and learns and do presentations and that sort of thing on resilience and positive psychology. And I was thinking, you know, this is all well and good, but you know, people are learning these things, but then going back into a toxic work environment, which isn't helping. You know, the training is really putting a, you know, bandaid on a bullet wound. Um, we need, you know, the more systemic intervention is required. And that's what got me thinking around, well, this is how we manage fatigue. It's a shared responsibility. Um, why aren't more companies practicing psychosocial safety or psychosocial risk management?

Uh, and my first hypothesis was there wasn't really good tools available, um, to understand risks, to consult at scale, to develop appropriate actions that are focused more on the design of work and whatnot. So, started to look at how could we use technology to facilitate that. So, uh, the hypothesis was largely right, you know, the tools weren't available. And now having the tools, a lot of our clients are a lot more effective in managing psychosocial risk. But what actually was the reason why companies weren't doing it was because it wasn't legislated. It wasn't until legislation came in in Australia and more importantly started being enforced by regulators that we saw organizations on mass actually start starting to change their behavior and adopting psychosocial risk management. So the technology and having the tools as part of it, but, um, it doesn't hurt at all when the regulators saying, you must do this, it's not a nice to have.

[00:05:25] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. So it was really born out of saying that, look, we can do these individual strategies, we give people tools for resilience and wellbeing, but if they're going straight back into the environment where perhaps they're fatigued and rostering isn't, I guess helping them, then it's not gonna do much. So you really focused on that backend to how can we make this a whole of organization approach and you, and that seems to be working.

[00:05:47] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. And look, to steal an analogy from my, um, one of my colleagues over in the UK, uh, he would talk about the, um, goldfish in a, in a fish pond, right? Like the goldfish might be getting sick because of the environment that it's in, right? So you take the fish out, you make it more resilient.

[00:06:05] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:06:05] Jason: And then you put it back in the same fish pond. No, it doesn't work, right? You actually need to clean the fish pond. Uh, and the same thing with the work environment. You know, the toxicity in the work environment is not going to be counterbalanced by making people more resilient. You actually have to deal with what the, the work environment.

So, um, yeah, that's really what, you know, we, we focus on and yeah, large, like we, we've now been able to work with well over a hundred organizations in this place, we're concurrently working with dozens of organizations who are advancing their strategy at, at various levels of maturity from, you know, just starting out to actually going, well, how do we continuously improve now how we go about this? And maybe go from organizational level approaches to, you know, line managers taking more ownership of some of these things.

[00:06:43] Bronwyn: Amazing. And so for listeners who are mainly early in their career, what are psychosocial hazards? And I'll preface this with I didn't know what psychosocial hazards were until I saw mainly that it was a buzzword that I kept on saying on LinkedIn, and I'm like, what is this phenomenon? So what is it, I guess put simply,

[00:07:00] Jason: Yeah, so psychosocial says psychosocial hazards are anything in the design management or social aspects of work that have the potential to cause harm. They're largely things that activate the stress response and all your listeners should know when that stress response is activated for too long. Um, then that can have detrimental effects on performance as well as wellbeing.

[00:07:19] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:07:19] Jason: Um, and so if you think about common psychosocial hazards like work overload, uh, low job control or autonomy, uh, low supervisor support, low role clarity, uh, all of these things can wear down on people over time. Psychosocial hazards are generally considered an exposure issue where, uh, one off exposure generally doesn't cause harm. You know, working 80 hours in a week isn't gonna make you depressed.

[00:07:40] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:07:40] Jason: Uh, but doing that for months on end might. Right. Um, but there are different types of hazards as well. So there your common work demands, if you like, and if you think about job demands, job resources, theory, um, you know, Bakker and, uh, Demerouti, they talk about, you know, all these different types of job demands. Um, but then you also have these toxic hazards or harmful behaviors that occur in workplaces as well, like bullying and sexual harassment, exposure to traumatic events or vicarious trauma, you know, all of these things... There's no positive benefit to people's mental health. When we talk about, you know, there is an optimal level of stress that people have. There is no optimal level of sexual harassment, right?

[00:08:22] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah.

[00:08:22] Jason: They're all harmful.

[00:08:23] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:08:23] Jason: And we should be eliminating those things where possible, right? So where some hazards can be counterbalanced. So if we think about job demands and resources theory, um, some demands can be counterbalanced by resources like having a supportive boss and good colleagues and, uh, autonomy, um, you know, the toxic and harmful behaviors... there- there is no good amount and they can't be buffered. You just have to seek to eliminate them.

[00:08:45] Bronwyn: Maybe we can get into what are the workers' responsibilities and what are the employer's responsibilities?

[00:08:53] Jason: Yeah. So I guess this is actually legislated as well, right? Yeah, like, so the employer needs to make sure, as far as reasonably practicable, to have workplaces that don't cause harm. So in health and safety legislation that so far is reasonably practicable is, um, a standard that people need to work to and they need to be able to demonstrate it for regulators to come knocking that they have actually reduced it so far is reasonably practicable.

Um, and so that's their responsibility to make sure we have a healthy and safe work environment and that, you know, in legislation, particularly in Australia, that was always supposed to be not just about the physical environment, it was also supposed to be for the psychological environment. Um, but employees didn't read it that way, and the regulators didn't think it was strong enough to enforce. But that's why in Australia, we've gone through a period of legislative reform in workplace health and safety. And we now have specific psychosocial risk reg- regulations that make it very clear that you need to elevate psychological health and safety to the same level as physical health and safety and follow similar processes around identifying and mitigating hazards and making sure you've got control measures that are effective.

[00:09:58] Bronwyn: I think that's why it wasn't on my radar as well, because I thought it was just applicable to physical risk, like for example, chemical exposure or something like that.

[00:10:07] Jason: Yeah.

[00:10:07] Bronwyn: And so you're saying that now it's, psychological wellbeing is on par with physical wellbeing.

[00:10:13] Jason: Yep. Yeah. And that's been coming since 2018 in Australia.

[00:10:15] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:10:16] Jason: So there was a review done of the Model Workplace Health and Safety Act by, uh, Marie Boland. And um, out of 34 recommendations for improvement. That was number two. We need to have specific regulations dealing with psychosocial.

Um, and in 2020 in the productivity commission inquiry into mental health in Australia. Out of five key reform areas, one of them explicitly said, we need to elevate psychological health and safety to the same level as physical health and safety.

[00:10:39] Bronwyn: Amazing, I'm so glad it's getting that attention. Like, I bet you are wrapped as well.

[00:10:43] Jason: Oh yeah. Like without that we wouldn't have a business like we tried and we were, we came out earlier before regulations and, uh, you know, companies just weren't willing to move.

[00:10:52] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:10:52] Jason: So we did, did require that, but I guess, you know, that's the employer's responsibility, right? So, so far as reasonably practicable have a environment that doesn't make people mentally unwell.

[00:11:02] Bronwyn: And can I just clarify which workplaces it applies to? Because psychologists can work privately or publicly, or not-for-profits, which kind of workplaces have to abide by this legislation.

[00:11:12] Jason: So the legislation talks about a person conducting a business or undertaking. Um, so it can, well, you know, you shouldn't harm yourself if you're a sole business owner or a sole trader.

[00:11:22] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:11:22] Jason: Uh, but yeah, anyone that has employees, this applies to-

[00:11:26] Bronwyn: Oh, really?

[00:11:26] Jason: Yeah. And also sub as well. Yeah. And subcontractors as well.

[00:11:29] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:11:29] Jason: So they're all considered part of your responsibility, uh, as someone conducting a business. It's your employees and, um, and subcontractors as well.

[00:11:36] Bronwyn: Is there any number. A minimum number of employees, or if you're conducting a private business and you have one employee, you got...

[00:11:43] Jason: Yeah, the, the only thing that might change would be what is reasonably practical.

[00:11:47] Bronwyn: I see.

[00:11:47] Jason: For, you know, a small business versus a larger business with more resources potentially. Yeah.

[00:11:50] Bronwyn: Wow. It's, it's just mind boggling to me because it's like having worked in private settings myself, I've never been made aware of like employees' responsibilities to prevent psychosocial houses as reasonably practical. So it's just like, wow, I didn't know that this actually applied to me. And I bet many listeners are thinking the same thing.

[00:12:08] Jason: Yeah, that's right. Um, and but you know, you think about it like you wouldn't ask people, like let's say you are a running a psychology business and you've got three people working for you. You wouldn't say someone, hey, climb up that ladder on top of the roof.

[00:12:22] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:12:22] Jason: Like that's 10 meters above. The ground and, uh, can you clean the gutters, without any fall arrests or, you know, any safety precautions, right?

[00:12:30] Bronwyn: Totally.

[00:12:30] Jason: And if someone did get injured, you'd be held liable as a business owner.

[00:12:32] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:12:33] Jason: In the same way, if someone is psychologically harmed and working for you, it doesn't matter how large the business is. You, you, you have responsibility from a health and safety perspective to make sure that person isn't harmed.

[00:12:41] Bronwyn: Okay. So we've got employer responsibilities.

[00:12:44] Jason: Yeah.

[00:12:44] Bronwyn: What are my responsibilities as an employee?

[00:12:47] Jason: Um, so it is to follow reasonable safety, um, uh, initiatives. So we talk sometimes about the role of psychosocial risk assessment and consulting with workers. And you know, maybe that's asking them to participate in a survey. Maybe it's asking them to participate in focus groups or interviews to understand the hazards and, um, consider controls.

And we very much, uh, you know, coach our clients to go, well, this is not a wellbeing survey. It's not a culture survey, because those things are voluntary and people can choose whether they're opt in or out. Now, this is a risk assessment. It is part of our safety obligation, and because it's a reasonable, uh, requirement from- to improve the safety of our organization, you must participate.

So, um, yeah, so employees need to participate in things that will improve, um, the, the psychosocial safety of, of that work environment. And they also need to make sure they ba behave in a way that doesn't cause harm to others. So if you think about sexual harassment or bullying... it's very foreseeable risk to people who perpetrate that sort of behavior to their colleagues or, uh, others that, that that will cause harm. So they shouldn't be acting in a way that will cause harm to others. So they need to think about their own harmful behaviors, um, and how they interact with others.

[00:14:01] Bronwyn: Totally. That makes it very clear. I guess one question that's coming up for me is, as an employee, how do I know if I'm being a bit of a princess? I guess that's the only way I can describe it. It's like, as part of our role as psychologists, we might come into contact with difficult material on a daily basis, like client by client. How do I know if it's just something that I should toughen up for, or if it's something that I, I should take measures for, or that my employer should take measures for?

[00:14:27] Jason: Yeah. So we talk about... psychosocial risk occurs where there's a mismatch between the person and the environment, right? And so to address that mismatch, there's two things we could do. We can change the person, um, or we change the environment and the stresses that they're exposed to. And all of us are gonna have different levels of tolerances based on our backgrounds, our own personality, and other underlying aspects of our psychology, right, that will make us more predisposed to harm based on exposure to different hazards.

So for example, if you ask 10 people how much work demands it would cause them to, or how much work they could do before they started feeling tired or stressed or, or whatever, you're probably gonna get 10 different responses.

[00:15:06] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:15:06] Jason: Um, same with, um, you know, traumatic materials. If you're exposed to those, some people might have a traumatic response immediately, whereas some, it might take, you know, years for them to build up, you know, that, that kind of response. It's the exposure right.

And so really it's not about someone being a princess or not. If you feel distressed or you feel like you are overwhelmed, um, that is a sense that there is not a good person job fit and something needs to change. Either you need to change, uh, or the environment and the- the things that you're exposed to need to change.

[00:15:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. So let's say that, um, I'm working in a psychology practice that routinely sees clients who present with traumatic material. I'm doing everything outside of sessions to care for myself in line with the competencies for wellbeing and self care, but I still find that I'm having some negative reactions, like I might not be able to sleep well or having, I guess, intrusions or material in my day-to-day life. And they're, and they're quite upsetting. Um, what do I do?

[00:16:07] Jason: It could be a good idea to find another role, you know?

[00:16:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. Is that the advice? Yeah?

[00:16:12] Jason: I mean, there's, there's two, there's two bits of advice, right?

[00:16:14] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:16:14] Jason: So, uh, person job fit. Maybe it's not the right job for you, right?

[00:16:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's a really good point.

[00:16:18] Jason: And there are many fantastic areas in psychology that people can work, right? There's only small part of it that actually requires exposure to that sort of content.

[00:16:26] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:16:26] Jason: So, uh, definitely you can, you don't have to change occupations completely, but maybe find a different aspect of psychology to practice in, right.

So that's, that's advice number one. Advice number two, if you can't change that, um, you change the exposure. So when we talk about exposure, it's severity, uh, frequency and duration.

[00:16:44] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:16:44] Jason: They're the three levers that you've got, right?

[00:16:46] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:16:46] Jason: So is there a way that, you know, the traumatic content, if, is it a certain part of traumatic content? Is it, you know, material with kids, for example, that is traumatizing for you?

[00:16:54] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:16:54] Jason: -Right, or is it animals? My, my wife would be more traumatized if she saw a dog injured than a kid injured, right.

[00:16:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too.

[00:17:02] Jason: What is it that, um, about the material and can you have that pre-screened before you see it?

[00:17:06] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:06] Jason: So that might change the severity, but then yeah, it might also be your caseload. Um, and, um, or how often you're coming across certain content, so the frequency and duration as well.

[00:17:16] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:16] Jason: So can you change the type of content? Can you change the severity? Um, and how, how big is your caseload as well? That that might also help.

[00:17:23] Bronwyn: Okay, sure. I get what you're saying and I just wanna ask a slightly different question. I'm not sure how to articulate it well, but let's see how we go.

[00:17:30] Jason: Yeah.

[00:17:30] Bronwyn: I wanna know, how do I know if it's normal? And I'm thinking specifically about caseload, for instance.

[00:17:36] Jason: Yeah.

[00:17:36] Bronwyn: Because you just mentioned that. So what if it's normal to see five clients a day?

[00:17:41] Jason: Mm.

[00:17:41] Bronwyn: Um. But I don't know that, how do I know what's normal and what's tolerable?

[00:17:46] Jason: And that, that's the role of mentors and having-

[00:17:48] Bronwyn: I see.

[00:17:48] Jason: -a professional, like this is the whole reason we should have, um, you know, peer, um, continued professional development, right?

[00:17:55] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:55] Jason: Like we should be talking with others around, Hey, this is my experience. Is that normal for you?

[00:18:00] Bronwyn: Right, totally.

[00:18:00] Jason: Um, so it's, it's really important as an early career psychologist to have a network of, you know, people who are also early career, but also people who are further along in their career that can give you that advice and guidance around what is normal.

[00:18:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, I agree. So important because I think even with contracts and like other aspects of your employment, early career psychologists don't know what's normal and they might not have that network. So it's so important, like you say, to link in with supervisors and people who are more experienced.

[00:18:24] Jason: Yeah, yeah. Find your tribe and um, you know, draw on their expertise. Yeah. I think that's, probably the best advice I can give.

[00:18:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Okay, so we've worked out that, okay, we don't have to be a princess. We don't have to toughen up, but if we feel like maybe it's not a good work *US* fit, then maybe we could change to a different area. We've also worked out what the obligations of the employers are and what our responsibilities are. I guess I'm interested in some more ways that employers can reduce the risk of psychosocial hazards for employees.

[00:18:54] Jason: Yeah, a lot of this comes down to just following, um, the risk management framework. There's four steps in this, and this is something that has been applied in the physical health and safety domain forever and psychosocial safety is now adopting a lot of these, these principles.

So there's four steps in the process. It's about identifying hazards. So what are the things that people might be exposed to? Um, so like we talked about work overload, low job control, low supervisor support, customer aggression. Then we need to assess the risk. So what is the likelihood and consequence that exposure to this hazard or this cluster of hazards might cause harm?

We have developed a tool that actually quantifies that risk, um, using psychometrics. So that's been a missing piece, I guess, um, in psychosocial safety for a while it's been our workload's high or job control's low, well, so what, um, but what we've done is validated an instrument, um, that helps to go, well, you continue down this route and those exposures to these group of hazards stay the same. This is the likelihood of burnout within the population. This is the likelihood of depression, anxiety, those sorts of things as well. So you need to assess the like- you need to get to a result where you can understand the likelihood and consequence of harm.

You then need to put a controls to either eliminate the hazard entirely, um, or reduce the risk so far as reasonably practicable. And then you need to, like a good psychologist should go back and check your work. Have we evaluated this control and make sure it is actually working effectively? Or do we need to iterate that and, uh, make improvements to how we go about it?

That should all be done with management commitment and support and, um, consultation with the, the workers, the people doing the job, uh, at every step of the journey. So employees, basically, they should follow a consultative approach with their employees to understand what they're exposed, to, assess the risk, put in controls, and, and monitor and review regularly.

[00:20:37] Bronwyn: Hmm. So do you feel like more and more workplaces are taking this seriously or does it still need to be adopted more broadly?

[00:20:44] Jason: Um, some are being dragged over hot coals to do it, if you like, by the regulators.

[00:20:50] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:20:50] Jason: So, um, it, it's good now that I think there are more examples of the regulators taking cases and making prosecutions for companies who don't do this good, yeah. Uh, 'cause that then shows to, you know, boards and, and other, um, PCBs that this is serious and it is being treated seriously and you must do this.

Other- we are working with organizations in countries like the UK and New Zealand, where the legislation isn't as strong, but they see this as best practice and they should be adopting it because it's morally the right thing to do.

[00:21:19] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:21:20] Jason: Yeah. So it's good that there are those companies that are swayed by morals and not just commercials.

[00:21:24] Bronwyn: Oh, that's lovely.

[00:21:24] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:25] Bronwyn: That's, it's really heartening to hear, yeah.

[00:21:28] Jason: Um, but, uh, yeah, so yeah, companies are, are adopting it, um, but it is a market maturity thing, right? Like this is like, you know, you've been working in psychology for a number of years.

[00:21:39] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:21:39] Jason: As, as would a lot of the listeners and many people are completely unfamiliar with psychosocial safety, right?

[00:21:45] Bronwyn: Totally.

[00:21:45] Jason: And in the broad kind of scheme of things, many employers, um, are unaware of it. And particularly smaller businesses that don't have dedicated health and safety functions. They, you know, it's very new to them. So it's just a, I see it as a market maturity thing, and companies are gonna understand this. There's gonna be better tools and better competence across industries, um, to deal with psychosocial safety over time.

[00:22:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. So coming back to, I guess, like smaller businesses, 'cause I think a lot of psychologists, like some of them work in the justice system or they might work in large not-for-profits or public system, which are quite large and would have their own, like people and culture, HR.

Um, but some of the smaller businesses might not. So your line manager might be your supervisor as well as your manager. Do you have any advice for people in these situations where they're experiencing or being exposed to psychosocial hazards and they, they feel like the employer could do something about that a bit more?

[00:22:39] Jason: Yeah, look, it, it can be really hard to be that internal whistleblower or the person who says, "Hey, this isn't right".

[00:22:47] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:22:47] Jason: "We need to do something about it". Um, if you're a. If you are, you know, bringing this up with your employer through means that if you can't do it through your manager because they're the cause of the problem and you're taking it up with HR and health and safety, and you see that they're not actually addressing the concerns, it probably is time to look for another employer. Protect yourself first. Like, I, that would always be my recommendation if the company, if the company isn't moving, um, because you, you know, by trying to get the company to change when you're just a individual contributor is very, very difficult.

[00:23:17] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:23:17] Jason: And the larger the organization, the harder it is for you to influence that. Um, and yeah, if they're not gonna change, then you probably need to do the best thing for yourself and protect yourself.

[00:23:26] Bronwyn: Mm. No, I think that's pretty sound advice, particularly for psychologists and a lot of my listeners are working in clinical settings, guys, our workforce like is under capacity by about 30%. So there's lots of work for us.

[00:23:36] Jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:36] Bronwyn: Um, so yeah, I guess like if we are experiencing a negative workplace, like Jason said, we, we can always seek other alternative employment opportunities.

[00:23:44] Jason: It is an employee's market, that's for sure.

[00:23:46] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:23:46] Jason: Yeah. If you're a psychologist in Australia for sure, or most places in the world, um, uh, I, I do think back to... so we run a conference called the Psych Health and Safety Conference, and we had our first one in, in June last year in Sydney. And, uh, we had a, a lawyer by the name of Zaggy ov, who was a plaintiff in the first high court case, which really looked at the role of psychosocial hazards in causing people harm.

And similar to, you know, exposure to the traumatic content that psychologists go through. She was, um, involved- she was working for the Office of Public Prosecutions, and she was involved in prosecuting cases to do with child abuse and, and things like that. So saw some really nasty things, massive caseload, yeah, ridiculous demands on her, plus the traumatic content of the role as well.

And she got very harmed by that, you know, developed PTSD. She's, you know, she's, I think she is permanently scarred by that. But, really interesting 'cause she presented at the conference, she was interviewed by a lawyer who was very familiar with the matter and, um, she said if they would take me back, I would go back and work there.

[00:24:48] Bronwyn: Wow. Why?

[00:24:50] Jason: Because she's so passionate about it and like, feels like she can make a real impact by doing it. And so her advice though was don't allow your passion to become your poison.

[00:25:00] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:25:00] Jason: Yeah. And I think that's really true with people in helping professions like psychology and other health practitioners where you really want to help people and then sometimes you don't think about your own wellbeing.

[00:25:11] Bronwyn: Wow, that's such a great story and such a good point and I think a lot of listeners can resonate with that because it's so true that we do wanna help. And I've heard numerous stories of people being like, I wanna leave this workplace, but I can't because of my clients. I care about my clients.

[00:25:23] Jason: Mm.

[00:25:23] Bronwyn: So a hugely relatable story. Yeah.

[00:25:26] Jason: Yeah. If you harm yourself to the point that you know, you're. Scarred for life, you're not gonna be that much help to others. Right?

[00:25:32] Bronwyn: Exactly.

[00:25:33] Jason: So you sometimes need to go, this is no good for me. And yes, the, these other people will get care elsewhere, right?

[00:25:38] Bronwyn: Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Just some curious questions.

[00:25:41] Jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:42] Bronwyn: What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about psychosocial hazards?

[00:25:46] Jason: Oh, there's, there's a lot.

[00:25:47] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:25:47] Jason: There's a lot. If you think broadly about psychosocial safety, first of all, um, there is constant conflation between that and a similar sounding construct, psychological safety.

[00:25:58] Bronwyn: Oh, okay. I didn't even know that. Cool.

[00:25:59] Jason: Yeah. So psychological safety, um, is something that wasn't coined by Amy Edmondson from Harvard University, but has been popularized by her. And it's that feeling where you can bring your, your true self to work. You're allowed to, or you can bring up ideas and suggestions and not feel like you're gonna be made to feel like an idiot or people are, there's gonna be professional or personal repercussions based on your input.

And, um, you know, the reason that, uh, psychologists are interested in this construct is it's something that helps to build creativity and innovation, uh, within teams where, you know, people can put dumb out ideas out there and not feel like they're gonna be ridiculed, uh, so that we can get more, yeah. More diverse ideas and opinions out there, and come up with better solutions, right.

Um, but there's not been a lot of research at all, um, that have, has linked psychological safety with better safety outcomes. Um, so reductions in injuries or better mental health outcomes.

[00:26:52] Bronwyn: Oh, that's interesting. 'cause I would think that there would be, like, the two would go hand in hand?

[00:26:56] Jason: And maybe they do, but there hasn't been a lot of research to support it. But everyone will kind of say, oh, to build wellbeing, we need psychologically safe workplaces. But the evidence isn't there.

[00:27:06] Bronwyn: What do you think we need?

[00:27:08] Jason: First of all, we need more research in this area, yeah.

[00:27:10] Bronwyn: Yeah. So do you think if we got the research that there would be a link? Or do you think we need more?

[00:27:13] Jason: I think it's too, yeah, I think it's too narrow, um, uh, a view or like, it's, it's too broad an intervention if you like. Let's just build psychological safety and then things will actually, you know, improve.

Um, what's really required is going, well, no, psychosocial hazards, um, are very discreet things in the workplace. And rather than just saying to leaders like. Get people to speak up, we actually need to do something about the psychosocial hazards.

Which is usually around work design. So, you know, rather than, um, someone working 80 hours a week, uh, with a micromanaging boss and going, oh, we just need more psychological safety... no, no, no. We need to make sure this person can complete their work in a normal amount of time. Maybe we need to distribute that workout better across the team.

[00:27:56] Bronwyn: Ah. You're so right. That makes perfect sense.

[00:28:00] Jason: Oh, people can speak up great, but what are we doing with that information?

[00:28:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:03] Jason: You know, you'll be right.

[00:28:04] Bronwyn: The reason why I asked us so is 'cause I was thinking that there's a huge neurodiversity acceptance movement, and one of the things that neurodivergent people want is that psychological safety. They wanna be able to unmask at work and not be made to feel like they're stupid or be discriminated against. Uh, for their inherent qualities and who they are.

[00:28:20] Jason: Yeah.

[00:28:20] Bronwyn: But it makes sense to me what you say. It's like, even if we had that, we'd also need to make sure that they don't have a ridiculous, like work demands as well.

[00:28:27] Jason: Yeah. So psychological safety might help to create the environment where you could talk openly about hazards and start to address them, but you actually need to address the hazards, which requires psychosocial risk management. So going through that framework I talked about before.

Um, so that's probably the, like, if I think about the biggest misconceptions in this whole space, it's that these two things are actually very different and you know, whilst both have benefits to actually get the mental health improvement in workplace, you actually need to practice psychosocial risk management. Yeah.

[00:28:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. Wow. Okay. And I wanted to know as well, was there anything that you wish you had known early in your career about the workplace in relation to workplace safety or psychosocial hazards that you could share with listeners?

[00:29:07] Jason: Uh, well, all of it, right? Like, um, I didn't, uh, well actually when I studied, um, when I did my Masters in Org Psych, it was very good timing in that I was doing my studies in 2005 and the HSE Stress Management standard actually was first published in 2004. That was the first time there was kind of a standard in a country that really focused on we're gonna improve mental health outcomes in the workplace, but we're gonna do that by improving work in psychosocial hazards rather than just asking people to be more resilient.

So, um, it was good timing in that I kind of... it was, I, I, I remember doing a, um, uh, an assignment actually on work related stress. And, um, yeah, that's when I came across that and I, and I was able to present that as, hey, this is something that's kind of cutting edge. It's, it's funny to think that's over 20 years old now.

[00:29:56] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:29:56] Jason: And it was cutting edge when I was going through my university, and it's evolved a lot since then.

But, um, you know, it, it was, and, and, yeah, my, myself, knowing that, I don't think too much would change. I've been very fortunate to work with some really great employers, I think, and have a lot of autonomy, um, very early on in my career. And always feel like I had a good network and support out there. So, uh, I don't think it would change much for me, but I can definitely, uh, see for some people, particularly when you are working maybe in a health system rather than, you know, for a smaller private employer, like yeah, there's definitely understanding, hey, there are some things within your control. There are some things that your employee should be controlling and who owns what. Yeah.

[00:30:41] Bronwyn: And what are the positive aspects of work that early career psychs could be looking out for? Like you just mentioned autonomy.

[00:30:47] Jason: Yeah.

[00:30:47] Bronwyn: Like I've read that that seems to be a factor that predicts, good, like, you feel good at your workplace if you have autonomy.

[00:30:54] Jason: Yeah.

[00:30:54] Bronwyn: Are there other factors that early career psychs could look out for as green flags?

[00:30:58] Jason: Yeah, yeah. So if you think about job demands and resources, right, demands, like, you know, work overload, you talked about the, you know, neurodivergence and people wanting to not have to have that face that they put on, that emotional labor is really demanding on people.

Um, but the, the resources are, you know, it's things that we talk about. So autonomy is a big lever. Job demands control you know that, that model by Karasek, um, you know, we've known about that since 1979. You know, having good autonomy can buffer the effects of work demands. Um, but job demands, resources, theory, which is extended from that, you know, identifies other, other resources as well, that buffer. So things like having, um, good reward and recognition, you know, getting feedback, uh, and not everyone like needs the same amount of feedback, right?

[00:31:41] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:31:41] Jason: If you're intrinsically versus extrinsically motivated, um, you know. I'm very intrinsically motivated. I don't need tell someone telling me I'm doing a good job.

[00:31:48] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:50] Jason: Um, but you know, if you, as an early career psych, I can understand if you need more guidance on are you actually providing value and how could I provide more value? And so, you know, talking to your manager or owner of small practice, if you're working there for opportunities to talk about what you're working and how you could improve and getting that feedback loop going. You know, that feeling of competence if you think about self-determination theory.

[00:32:15] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:32:16] Jason: Like how can you get that feedback loop going is I think really a good thing to buffer, um, the effects of work demands. And yeah, probably just that, you know, the feeling of mattering as well, like, what am I- what is it that I'm doing that contributes to team value? And then how does that help with organization value and what's the effect on the broader community as a result of working here and doing this job as well?

[00:32:38] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:32:38] Jason: So that comes down to role clarity a bit as well. And just, um, yeah, that, that sense of meaning and mattering, I think that's really important. And as an early career psych, you might not feel like you're having a huge impact on the world, um, but, you know, starting to work out well, even with this small thing that I'm doing, there's a reason that I'm doing that because it's gonna affect these people this way.

[00:32:57] Bronwyn: It's such a good point and I think particularly relevant, like you say, for early career psychs, because I think earlier on in your career, like clinically, you can feel like, oh, this is really hard, I'm not sure if I'm actually helping people, I'm not sure if I'm having an impact.

So being able to be seen by your employer as like, you're not just a cog in a wheel, you are doing something meaningful...

[00:33:15] Jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:15] Bronwyn: ...can make a huge difference, I think, to just how early career psychs feel.

[00:33:19] Jason: And like most employers of early career psych should know that, right? They're getting someone who's green. They're learning, um, that they, they will develop over time, but they need, you know, guidance and support to develop and they're not gonna provide huge impact straight away. But if you nurture them and, you know, help them develop, then they will do greater impact.

So early career psychs, I guess, should not put too much burden on themselves that they need to be having massive impact. You know, if you're talking about meaning and mattering, you actually deciding to go into the profession in the first place and you're seeing that the amount of impact you can create over your career will get greater, the more experience you get.

[00:33:53] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:33:53] Jason: You know, understanding that it's a journey, you know, I think that's important too. Rather than thinking about immediately what impact am I having?

[00:33:59] Bronwyn: Mmm. Absolutely. Um, Jason, I think we're coming towards the end of our conversation. I wanted to ask you, is there anything else that you feel is important for early career psychs to know about psychosocial hazards or psychological safety. I know I'm using the wrong term there.

[00:34:12] Jason: Yeah, yeah. No, it's, um, look, I, I think they need to know that this is a huge and growing field. Uh, if you're in Australia in particular, um, there are so many internal roles going now. Um, particularly if you've got a background in organizational psychology, if you can get exposure to health and safety, um, uh, or organizational development as well. Um, you know, those things can help you to really build the skillset that's required to work in this field.

But the jobs are increasing. Um, the types of companies you get to work for are really great, uh, and very good money associated with these roles as well.

[00:34:47] Bronwyn: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:47] Jason: Um, and typically you don't need to be exposed to some of the really, you know, nasty things that some psychologists have to do as well. So, uh, they need to know this is a large and growing field and it's gonna create international opportunities as well for those who are interested in exploring the world.

[00:35:01] Bronwyn: It is really good to know, and I have had a lot of anecdotal data of psychs really wanting to get into this space.

[00:35:07] Jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:07] Bronwyn: So could I ask you, I guess, because master of clinical psychology is the most prevalent pathway that psychs undertake, so there may not have these org psych skills. Is there a particular training you recommend for psychs who wanna get into org psych, or is it more about finding the roles and mapping your existing competencies onto those roles?

[00:35:25] Jason: It's both right? You can do either formal or uh, informal ways of learning.

[00:35:29] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:29] Jason: Um, I think. There's nothing better than actually once you've got your quals to get out of academia.

[00:35:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:35] Jason: And start like applying what you've learned and getting into different contexts and learning by doing. Um, so, uh, probably the easiest pathway would be to go and work for a regulator.

[00:35:45] Bronwyn: Yep. Okay.

[00:35:46] Jason: Uh, they're employing a lot of people specifically, um, on... to, to help enforce regulations on psychosocial safety. Uh, but they provide a lot of instruction, a lot of training in this area, and then a lot of guidance and support. It's probably the easiest training ground, uh, which you're actually paid to do, rather than having to pay, uh, to actually broaden your skillset to do that. Anyone with a psychology degree would be a good chance of getting a role like that and, and getting trained up on how to do that. Um, that would probably be the, one of the easiest ways and quickest ways to do it.

Um, otherwise, yeah, many organizations- like you, you really want to kind of build up, uh, a knowledge and experience in health and safety and also organizational development. Um, and so working internally within a large company that has a health and safety and people and culture function, um, you know, is, is a good way as well to kind of build up that skillset and start to get exposure to some of the, um, uh, the ways of working of these two kind of functional areas.

[00:36:40] Bronwyn: Mm. Good hot tip there. Um, Jason, it has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Your expertise really shines through. Like, I can just see that this comes so easily for you to talk about. It's just been your bread and butter for the past 20 years, right?

[00:36:54] Jason: Well, last, uh, what, seven or eight years? Yeah. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, but human factors, yeah, close to 20 years.

[00:36:58] Bronwyn: It's very evident. Um, if listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:37:04] Jason: Just look up FlourishDx, you'll find us online and also on LinkedIn. I'm pretty prevalent on this, so very, very happy to take direct messages and connect.

[00:37:11] Bronwyn: Awesome. Great. Jason, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and like I said, your expertise and I don't use that word lightly. I hope it doesn't make you uncomfortable, but yeah, it just comes through. It's so good. Thank you so much.

[00:37:21] Jason: Thanks for having me.

[00:37:22] Bronwyn: No worries. And listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy this episode, please do share it with your colleagues. Put it in somebody else's ears. It's the best way to get the podcast out there and get more people listening. You've been listening to Mental Work. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye.