Owning your own sh*t as a therapist (with Marie Vakakis)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about our perceptions of our mental health colleagues.

If you've ever silently judged a colleague for how they work or made assumptions about them, only to find out later that you were off the mark, then maybe this episode might explore some themes that are relevant to you. Our guest today and co-host for this episode is Marie Vakakis. Hi Marie.

[00:00:33] Marie: Hello. I love-, ooh, co-host, this is exciting.

[00:00:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, I thought it'd be good to just talk about it both rather than a, uh, interrogative investigation type episode. Not that I do interrogative investigation, but like I know sometimes maybe it can feel like that.

[00:00:48] Marie: Yeah, I think we're almost up to a dozen episodes together.

[00:00:52] Bronwyn: I think so. Yeah. So, so, you know, you're an informal co-host. I've just given you that title now.

[00:00:59] Marie: Awesome.

[00:01:00] Bronwyn: Could you just remind listeners who you are?

[00:01:02] Marie: Yeah, so I am, I'm Marie Vakakis. I'm an accredited mental health social worker, couple and family therapist, and I host the podcast Inside Social Work, which has just been rereleased after being, um, in hibernation for a couple of years while I focus on my other podcast, This Complex Life. So I love talking and listening and podcasting, so I am very excited to be doing this collaboration with you.

[00:01:27] Bronwyn: Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. And listeners do check out the Inside Social Work podcast. I think it's a really great podcast and it talks about similar themes to what we cover on the Mental Work podcast, but translated into the social work world. Um, and yeah, I really enjoy it.

[00:01:40] Marie: Oh, awesome. So where do we start?

[00:01:44] Bronwyn: So, I released an episode on the Mental Work podcast and I was talking about my reflections. I've recently just hit the milestone of five years, registered as a psychologist, and I did an episode on my reflections. One of those reflections was about how early on when I started out, I had a really idealized picture of other mental health workers, and I thought that they would be ultra able to regulate their emotions, that they would always be up for an adult conversation, um, and it, it would just be much easier to do conflict resolution and they would know their own stuff. And as I've gone down my career, I've realized that sometimes that's not always the case. And I think this resonated with you as well.

[00:02:27] Marie: Yeah, I am actually just trying to, uh, people can't see us, which is probably good, but I'm just trying to find, I think that's what I did. I screenshot, or I was listening to that and I must have messaged you saying, oh my God.

[00:02:38] Bronwyn: Yeah. you did. Yeah.

[00:02:40] Marie: Um, listening to the episode on reflections, some really great things, listening to the part about holding psychologist or high standard.

[00:02:47] Bronwyn: Yeah!

[00:02:47] Marie: So that's how this started.

[00:02:49] Bronwyn: yeah. And so it sounds like that's a shared reflection for you as well. So maybe, was that, did that resonate with you exactly? Were you like, oh, I also idealized other mental health workers, or was it something different?

[00:03:03] Marie: I did big time and maybe I expected that of myself as well. I think I've, maybe that's how I feel other people expect that of me, but I've had workplaces where I've, I've expected or hoped managers have clearer communication or aren't, um, passive aggressive or avoidant, uh, dance around things, give good constructive feedback, and that hasn't happened.

And then when I started family therapy and I learned about sort of a lot of the internal work we do to try and notice what is activating, or the client's, well, family's activating in us and then how we respond, I was like, oh, but that person was a family therapist. How did they fuck this up? Like, how did they get this wrong? and so yeah, it resonated with me because I've seen people completely lose their shit, and then I have the empathy of saying they're also human. And so sometimes I've seen them be human. The tough bit has been when. There's no ability to come together and repair from that in a workplace setting.

[00:04:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, I've, I've always found that, and even in my personal life, I think it's been a hard lesson to learn. It's like you can try and come together and try and do that repair, but the other person may not have the skills capacities to be able to meet where we're at and try and join together and be with that repair and they can just leave. And I think psychologists, social workers, mental health professionals, they can be like that too, because they're human.

[00:04:36] Marie: Yes. Um, and I think it depends on what, what is happening. Like I know at times of- of grief, I've had family members die and you've still got to work, right? You've still got to do stuff. I know if someone was judging me on my capacity, if they had only met me in those few weeks, especially in the kind of most, um, prickly part of the grief, they must have thought I was an awful person. But then you hope that your team or people who've known you for longer allow some grace with that.

[00:05:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I think we hope that they'll hold perhaps even more grace with that. That's been the biggest expectation, disappointment for me. I've- I always had the expectation that my colleagues would hold me with the same compassion that they hold clients with, and I would literally hear about the compassion that they're demonstrating towards a client, and then the way that they treated me was so opposite that, and that was a disappointment for me.

[00:05:35] Marie: How so?

[00:05:37] Bronwyn: Well, I guess it just didn't meet my expectation, but maybe my expectation was wrong in the first place. I shouldn't have expected that their professional capacities and skills would necessarily translate over to personal life. We all have a professional front, I guess, and maybe that is different to how we interact interpersonally and casually with colleagues. I guess I just hoped it would translate over, but yeah, maybe that was a, a silly expectation.

[00:06:06] Marie: I don't know if it's a silly expectation. It can be a hope.

[00:06:10] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:06:11] Marie: But then that, that's, that could be part of the blind spot, right? Is if that's your expectation and it's not met, what does that then evoke for you and how does that change how you behave?

[00:06:22] Bronwyn: Well, exactly, and I think, um, for me it's disappointment. I think it brings into question my expectations, which, which have changed as a result of the interactions that I've had. Um, and maybe for the better. Maybe like, like I said in my reflective episode, I was like, I think it's for the better that I don't hold colleagues to this standard, uh, 'cause I don't think it was accurate to begin with.

[00:06:46] Marie: So what'd you do?

[00:06:47] Bronwyn: I think my, my, my expectation now is just that everyone is human and there's not like mental health professionals who are saints who come into this and are perfectly regulated all the time. The- the expectation is just that I'm gonna meet a bunch of different people who are at different stages of their own emotion regulation. The way they treat their clients might not be the way that they treat me, and I shouldn't expect that. I can hope, but it would be a bit folly to expect. So I'm a bit more discerning with who I interact with professionally and I'm able to be like, no, I don't really like the way that that person is treating other people or me, and I might interact with them less.

[00:07:32] Marie: Yeah. I wonder though if how they treat their clients that being different, maybe because there's an inherent, power difference there.

[00:07:42] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:07:43] Marie: And some people may be subconsciously, they like being the healer, the helper, the one who's needed. And so, uh, with their colleagues, that's threatened or it's a different dynamic.

[00:07:56] Bronwyn: It is a really good point. I think that could be true of some people, and I think one reason why I held the expectation the first place is actually because I perceive myself as being similar... how I treat my clients is how I treat other people. I think that's why I developed the expectation. Do you feel like there's a one-to-one for you with how you treat clients versus colleagues?

[00:08:16] Marie: I actually think I, I'm more nervous of colleagues. Um, I think as especially moving into more senior positions. I think I was maybe more nervous of maybe some imposter stuff or will they, um, 'cause if a client doesn't like you, you don't gel, they don't come back. But the rupture, the repair, the, maybe gossiping, large kind of workplace dynamics that felt like there was a different thing at stake there and... I dunno. It, it felt different. Um, and also it wasn't, it wasn't a one-way relationship. Like, I'm not gonna sit there for 50 minutes and just validate and empathize and, and try and help the person get to where they go. There'd be banter, there'll be back and forth. I can be a bit more colorful in my language. Um, you know, I could maybe get out of a session, be like, oh my God, that was so shit or so hard. Like I, I, there is a difference.

[00:09:18] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:09:19] Marie: Um, but I think I was maybe more, more wary or, or nervous about my integrity being questioned or someone maybe hearing something and not being transparent, maybe, uh, not knowing where I stand or someone misunderstanding something. I think there was, especially in those early days, a lot of, uh, worry about upsetting anybody or getting it wrong or-

[00:09:43] Bronwyn: Um, upsetting colleagues or clients, or both?

[00:09:46] Marie: But- both just letting people down, maybe thinking, oh my God, am in the right job. Could I get this right?

[00:09:52] Bronwyn: And have you ever been on the receiving end of an incorrect assumption from a colleague or a criticism that you didn't feel was correct?

[00:10:01] Marie: Probably not directly. I think if it was directly, that would be more helpful to con, to converse about. There have been instances where someone's misinterpreted, uh, something a shared client has said, and I think that's been difficult, especially when part of that person's profile was presenting with traits that created splitting and that was part of it and could be manipulative. And I, I think that created a bit of tension of how, how can you believe them, that they're saying, Marie said this and she told me to do this. I was like, no, I did not say that. So sometimes that got me a little bit, um, annoyed that I wasn't given the benefit of the doubt.

[00:10:48] Bronwyn: I wonder if, yeah, that's a common one for people to experience because I, I just feel like I've had that happen to me as well, and I'm like, I would never say that, uh, and I would hope that the other person would know me enough to believe that. I wouldn't say that, or I would've approached it in, in a different way.

[00:11:06] Marie: I had one and it was, um, it was a very tricky case, kind of family violence themes, and I was empathizing with one of the family members in a phone call being like, it makes sense that if that's what you saw happen, that you would feel that way. And then he went and told the other person, Marie agreed with me, like, I did not agree with you. I said, it makes sense that that's what happened. I was trying to deescalate. And so that was a whole other thing.

But as you were, um, as you were talking, what was coming to mind for me, and I'm not sure, um, how to maybe how to articulate this, but we're reflecting on this in a recent team meeting where you learn so much book learning and even all, a lot of the therapy training is very individual one-on-one, unless you've done some more sort of, I don't know, um, gestalt, or, uh, psychodynamics, like stuff where the relationship between you and the clients is part of the work. And so maybe that's where some of this... these are some of our blind spots is we haven't really learned to look at ourselves in that situation and think about what it evokes for us, what's happening to us, what happens with, you know, defensive behavior, emotional cut, like that's a more sophisticated type of therapy skill or reflective skill. I don't know. There was something there. I was just like, it was coming to mind as you were talking.

[00:12:36] Bronwyn: No, I agree, and I think that's pretty accurate. And I think one of the reasons why I know for a psychologist, I mean just speaking to my own experience, but I do feel like, in, in coursework, you are marked for the book smart part of it. So you do formulations, you do case studies, you do assignments, when you're marked on how many symptoms of PTSD can you correctly identify from the DSM, that kind of stuff. Whereas you're not necessarily marked on how good you are at recognizing how a client's statement reflected on you and your past history and the emotions it invoked for you. Uh, so yeah, I do feel like it's not rewarded to be able to reflect in that way.

[00:13:23] Marie: Absolutely not. And then it's not reinforced culturally either. It, it really brings to mind a lot of, um, Brene Brown's leadership work and, and her, the content she puts out there through her podcast and books, and it's a very different way of being to sit with the, I don't know, to be okay to be vulnerable and say, I got that wrong. I'm I, and that's, that's hard, and if we don't have it modeled in our culture, our parents maybe didn't do that. And we haven't had workplaces that did that... A lot of people get promoted because they're, they're just senior or they've been there clinically and maybe don't get the scaffolding and training to adjust their skills for management rather than just being clinically skilled. Maybe we're just kind of, we don't, we don't know. We can't be what we can't see. We're just kind of stuck.

[00:14:17] Bronwyn: I, I think that's right and I think it's tied up with, uh, maybe an idealized perception of professionalism as well. I, I feel like, um, for me, for a psychologist, there's this image of how I should be and how I should act, and definitely emotional vulnerability it's not one of those, um, you know, there's a movement, like psychologists are humans, mental health workers are humans, but it's still like the people who are role modeling... it's still very much you need to be kept together and tight and constrained, and those are the kinds of words I associate with, uh, professionalism. I guess "perfect" would be maybe a good summary.

[00:14:57] Marie: Yeah, and that takes away all the human element of it, doesn't it?

[00:15:03] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:15:04] Marie: And yet when you think of clients, people don't want us to be perfect. They find that intimidating.

[00:15:13] Bronwyn: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I know that some of the best feedback I've had from clients has been along the lines of, I can understand what you're saying. I'm so glad that you can make this understandable for me. The worst relationships I've had with clients are where they feel disconnected and that they can't understand what I'm saying. So I, I think clients want us to be able to relate to them and their experiences in a human way, not a robotic textbook, uh, kind of way.

[00:15:43] Marie: So if we go on the, maybe we'll go along the spectrum of different thoughts. If we go on the, the kind of slightly harsher side, the why won't they own their shit kind of end, how do we, like, how do you kind of draw a line there of yes, we are human and we are not perfect and there are some behaviors that are still not okay. All feelings are fine, but having a tantrum at work and throwing a stapler... not okay.

So how do we, have that conversation by saying maybe some people are burnt out, dysregulated, like maybe they need to do their own work.

[00:16:26] Bronwyn: I don't know because I haven't been brave enough to bring it up. I guess like where I've seen this the most has been in real life. One of my early workplaces, I did make a bullying complaint against a colleague, and I wasn't, I wasn't bothered by the bullying until it really affected me. So the, the bully was, um, eventually they started cutting me off in team meetings and talking down on me and saying bad stuff about me. And I was like, okay, well this is escalated, so I need to make a complaint against you. and then I just said, you guys handle it, um, and come back to me with the resolution. Um, so that's like the, the, the, the amount of calling out that I've done and it was resolved.

And then online I've seen people spit dummies and three tantrums and I've just kind of been like, oh, like that's not a good look for you. And I, I definitely haven't contacted them, so, so I'm not really sure what the answer is there.

[00:17:23] Marie: Yeah, I had a recent supervision group that was talking about something in their workplace and it was a team member that had been there for some significant time and wasn't until their departure from that workplace that all these issues were brought forward. And that person turned around and said, well, it's just as much your fault 'cause no one said anything.

[00:17:45] Bronwyn: Oh wow.

[00:17:46] Marie: And so they, they were kind of like, well, yeah, like it had been a running joke that they were doing all these things kind of poorly or wrong, but no one actually pulled them up on it or had the conversation or gave them support. So they were responding in a indirect, passive way, bitching, moaning, gossiping behind that person's back, but no one actually performance managed that, or supported whatever it was that that person needed. And so they were like, well, noone said anything.

[00:18:20] Bronwyn: If someone is doing things that, that should be performance managed, I absolutely think it should be brought up sensitively and respectfully with them early, rather than letting it get worse.

[00:18:34] Marie: Do you think some managers or colleagues are scared to hurt someone's feelings or upset them? Like to actually say, hey, I actually think you might need some support. Are we further adding to this stigma that it's bad or it means something like, are we kind of co-creating this weird thing?

[00:18:52] Bronwyn: I think , humans aren't perfect. We're not perfect. We need support. We should talk about it. What's your perspective?

[00:19:00] Marie: I think definitely some of that. And then adding on, I, I do find it hard because I feel like we know better and we should do better. And so many people I hear, they say, oh, this is what I'll tell a client to do, but I don't do it. Um, and there's a real martyrdom to that. I'm like, well, you know this, you know, sleep is important. You know, boundaries are important and there's an avoidance there of embodying some of those things. And I wonder if that then creates a block in how effective you can be in therapy, 'cause then it's educational rather than, uh, doing, and it, it, it makes me think of, you know, like ACT, I interviewed, what was it? Louise Harms a while back on the podcast and she's like, act isn't something you kind of do. It's, it's who you are, like, it's, it's kind of felt and done together. And I, and I think that that might be a wake up call for some people of this is what I say I value, and these are my behaviors. And what you do frequently becomes your default value. And that can be quite confronting.

[00:20:08] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:20:09] Marie: And that's where things like supervision, reflective practice groups, those things can be like a bit of a mirror into some of those behaviors or blind spots.

[00:20:20] Bronwyn: I completely agree with everything you've just said. It reminds me of this quote that I think it's pretty common, but it's like you can only take the client as far as you've gone yourself, something like that, along those lines. And I think that's true as well. I think that we should be putting what we air quote, preach into, practice. It- it gives us a inside perspective on. How hard it is to do some of the things that we ask clients to do, um, yeah. And yeah, shows our values.

[00:20:52] Marie: It, it really does. I also don't think we're great at relationships. Therapy's one, one way really. The, the training when I think about my couple's work and some of the, I'm reading at the book at the moment, Fight Right by the Gottmans. It's really quite good. But you can pull that stuff out into day to day. I don't think we're comfortable with conflict. We've, we don't have an, um, a tolerance for rupture repair. And I think some people, you know, you spend a, I mean, to be a social worker is at least a six year pathway. And it's the same with to be a registered psychologist, you know, it's something you dedicate so much time to, I imagine that that would be so hurtful to feel like I'm trying my best, I'm doing this stuff. I've done all these unpaid placements. Often the first few jobs you get, um, can be kind of the more pointy end crisis driven work or funding defunding of organizations and restruct- like, it, it can be kind of brutal. And then someone's telling you. You've got some unresolved baggage? Like, excuse me, don't they know how hard I'm working? I've dedicated my whole life to helping other people. Like I think it can be, it can be hard to sit with that, especially if maybe you haven't- you don't have that need met somewhere else.

[00:22:12] Bronwyn: I think it can be really hard to sit with that, but I think if you don't address it, it'll come back to bite you in the ass... is, yeah, it's pretty much what I'd say. Because as soon as you meet more clients, like it might not have been triggered up until the point where you're like, oh, like I don't wanna have to go do that. But you will meet a client in the future who is slightly different, who gets a, your unresolved stuff, um, that you didn't consider, and then it will come up and you'll have to deal with it or cope in a different way that might be unhealthy.

[00:22:42] Marie: Do you do supervision as a supervisor? Do you provide supervision?

[00:22:47] Bronwyn: No, I don't provide supervision. I'd love to get into supervision in the future. Um, but I think like up until now with my career, I, I have had a lot of imposter syndrome and I've been like, I don't know enough. I dunno enough. And then I've been like figuring my own stuff out as well alongside that and making sure that my mental health is robust.

[00:23:07] Marie: Because the question I was gonna ask is how do we use supervision? Or even sometimes therapy, um, but oh, we, supervision is talking more professional context to challenge us rather than justify and defend. Because you can spin, I mean, if you look at TV dramas are really good examples where one person can be completely convinced that their side, it is fine. Like I think of, I had an episode, um, on the Couple's Therapist Couch and we were talking about this fictional case of a, of a parent and child and, uh, the parents trying to individuate and, and doesn't want the, the mum to drop 'em off at the school gate anymore. And so then. They're said like, oh, can you drop me off a few blocks back? And mum's like, oh, how dare you. You know how much I've done. Mum could easily go to work and be like, my child is such an ungrateful brat, how like I, you know, be so righteously indignant and be contemptuous. And then the work colleagues might be like, you're taught I you such a little shit. I, she should just learn to be grateful. And then you could talk to the young person, they're like, mum's just so suffocating. She doesn't listen. Like we can create enough val- like, especially now, you could Google anything and get your point validated.

[00:24:18] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:18] Marie: All right. And so how do we, how do we know? How do we be brave enough to maybe think, maybe I got this wrong. Maybe there's a different perspective here, or this keeps happening. It can't be, everybody's an idiot.

[00:24:34] Bronwyn: No. I think there's two things to that, um, one thing I've noticed in my life is that, so I have this belief that there's no issue with not knowing things and being wrong. Um. I'm happy to be wrong. I'm happy to know things. I'm happy to admit that I don't know things. Um, but I've noticed for other people that maybe like, that's actually a rarer perspective. I, I don't know if you had to be socialized or taught that, that you're not stupid for not knowing things that you can't possibly know anything or everything. Um, what do you think of that?

[00:25:05] Marie: I think that's that vulnerability thing, and I, I don't think we're modeled that. I, I don't know any parents, adults from when I was a kid, like that generation who would've openly admitted, I don't know something. It would've been... And, uh, you know, can't remember the old Telstra commercials. It's like, why is the, what's it's the Great Wall of China? And it's like, built by Emperor Nasi Goreng, to keep the rabbits out. Like they would just make something up or say, my house might rules or don't ask questions like we weren't role model that we didn't sell- have someone say, actually, I've never thought of that before, let me get back to you.

[00:25:40] Bronwyn: Yeah, I guess like reflecting on it, it's like my mum did say a lot I- 'cause I asked a lot of questions when I was a kid, very curious. And she'd be like, I don't know Bronny why the grass is green.

[00:25:50] Marie: Get your encyclopedia and find out.

[00:25:53] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Um, so maybe people didn't have that. But yeah, that's one part of it that I think it's okay not to know things. And then the other thing I think in supervision is I- for me, I have a commitment to challenging myself, so I use supervision- so here's how I do it. Specifically, the thing that I'll do in supervision is I'll talk about a case. I'll be talking about the case, and then I'll say to my supervisor, I had the urge to do this, or I thought about doing this. In my mind, I thought to myself, this client should just shut up and they should just do what I'm telling them to do. And I would have that urge in my head, I would've said something differently, but I bring it up with my supervisor 'cause I wanna discuss where that urge came from, and I wanna talk about, yeah, what, what led me to feeling that way and what the client evoked in me to have that thought. Um, so I bring up the, the unpleasant or un- unsociable urges or thoughts that I have and, and that's how I challenge myself in supervision.

[00:26:49] Marie: I think that's really lovely.

[00:26:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, how, how do you do

[00:26:53] Marie: I. I, um, well, I've, I've got a lot of recordings of sessions, um, especially for the, the Gottman certification track. And so in a recent supervision session, I and I showed the most difficult bits, right? And I, I don't need help with the stuff I think I did well. And I, I remember telling my, my supervisor, I was like, I, a part of me really hates showing you this because, you know, what if you'd never ref recommend me to anybody gonna think I'm so shit and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, it was just like, I never think that, but it, it was interesting to say... him pausing and saying, what happened for you there?

But we did a lot of contracting, not, we didn't sit down explicitly.dot, but our first few sessions, a lot of that time was spent talking about what I wanted to get out of that. And I didn't wanna just tick the boxes to pass the certification. I've signed up for two years at least, of regular, of monthly supervision with the same person, and I want, I want to do it better. And I think through that, the relationship building, we've been able to create more space for that.

[00:28:01] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:28:02] Marie: And then I'm getting better at asking for what I want too. So sometimes I'll say, look, I feel like I've just had a lot of rough ones lately. Is there anything in that video you think I did okay?

[00:28:10] Bronwyn: Yeah. That's nice.

[00:28:11] Marie: And so, and that feels really scary. That's so, that's so hard. Like I even my body language as I say it to you, I feel like a little kid in the corner being like, oh, do you like my little finger painting? Is it okay to -

[00:28:24] Bronwyn: But it's so important to have that positive feedback. It's- so it's really brave of you to commit to asking for positive feedback.

[00:28:32] Marie: It is hard because as someone who's eager to learn and a lifelong learn, I can keep going.

[00:28:36] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:28:37] Marie: But then that does leave me sometimes feeling like, well, is anything, I'm doing fine.

[00:28:41] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:28:42] Marie: But then at the same time, I ask for feedback 'cause I want to grow. So sometimes if I'm feeling particularly tender or prickly, I'm, I'm learning to ask for more of that too.

[00:28:53] Bronwyn: Mm. That's really awesome. Yeah, so I guess like what I'm hearing between us is like a shared commitment to both being challenged and challenging ourselves and using supervision as a way to feel challenged and asking for our needs to be met.

[00:29:07] Marie: Yeah.

[00:29:07] Bronwyn: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:09] Marie: The other point I had on this topic, and I, I had the, the kind of the dot point here of, you know, we talk about perfectionism... is- you actually, and I'll be curious to- do you feel you need to be healed or just honest? So we will, like some people will have had some significant life experiences that have been traumatic or will be going through it, right? Like I, I use grief as an example because we will have people that we love die. Do I have to not be feeling the grief or do I have to have enough awareness that this is what's happening for me at the moment? I might need to reduce my contact hours. I might need to rearrange my thing. I might need to take, if it's a job that that's being poked at all the time, I might need to take a sabbatical or a secondment or something. Like, is it, are we, could you people, it's like some people listen to this be like, oh my God, now I need to own all my own baggage, as well as pass the exam. It's like, I'm, I'm not saying that... but I think you need to have enough awareness to know what you can do differently, what adjustments, temporary or permanent, you need to make.

And sometimes, yes, there might be a financial hit to that if you really know, I can't work full-time for the next little while... Yeah, that might be an impact, but that might be the choice that you have to make to do your job well. Like, what do you think about having to be healed or just having to be honest?

[00:30:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think um, it's a matter of degree. I don't think you need to be fully healed, 'cause I think it's like an ongoing thing. Like if you take grief for an example, um, you may come through the initial stages of grief and maybe not be crying every day or where you, or when you see something that reminds you of the person you've lost, it doesn't feel quite as strong as it did a few months ago.

But that said, for grief, there might be periods where you go through a wave and then you feel that grief quite intensely. So it, it might come up, it might go down, it might go around. And so I don't think you need to be healed because I feel like that's unrealistic.

But I do feel like you need to be aware, say if you're in the early stages of grief and a client is coming to you with a similar presentation, you notice that that brings up in you, like, a dry throat, tears in your eyes, then they might be an indication that they need to take a break from this work for now, until you're able to be able to be more emotionally regulated in that space. And yeah, I think it's a self-judgment, but it's a matter of degree.

[00:31:49] Marie: I, I find, and maybe it's, I don't know, some people have an aversion to all organization, they feel like everyone's just trying to make money off. Like we get paid, they get paid, it goes around. But I think some people feel like, well, no, I'm in, I'm entitled to this or I don't get this and, and really hold, hold onto that.

And I think when I had my grandparents die in Greek culture, we do a 40 day service, three months, six months, I don't know if we do a nine month and then. Every year and after the first grandparent died, that 40 day mark that weekend, I was completely floored by Monday came and I had to call in sick and I didn't see that coming.

So after for the next one, I just took it as an annual leave day. And yes, a part of me was like, oh, it sucks that we only get this many days compassionate leave and not culturally fair and all this other stuff, but that's beside the point. I knew it was likely I was gonna be distressed or just fatigued, and I could do, I could put in place something for that.

[00:33:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. It doesn't mean that there was anything wrong with you, it was just taking care of yourself in the way that you needed to and recognize things that, whilst also acknowledging that it does suck to not have, I guess the, the sick leave that we have when we're self-employed.

[00:33:19] Marie: As I was sharing that story, it made me think I actually had a really supportive team. I had a really, um, a really great team leader, um, who had a beautiful, wicked dirty sense of humor, um, and I even specifically remember them sending flowers, um, for the funeral. The first, like the first one, not the 40 day thing. But we have to acknowledge as well the power imbalance of some people don't feel they can. They might not have trust in their team. They might have been burnt before by poor workplace dynamics. Some people contribute to it and they perpetuate that. But some people, you know, are like, are new and vulnerable and insecure and uncertain and they want mentorship and support and growth and nurturing and things to go slow and the workplace doesn't allow that or foster that. What can those folk do?

[00:34:11] Bronwyn: It's a really tricky one 'cause I completely empathize with their self protection strategies. I mean that's what they are, it's like they've had these past experiences, so they've come up with ways to protect themselves from what they perceive the workplace is like. I guess maybe a first step would be asking yourself, are you correctly perceiving the current workplace or are you applying what you know of the past workplace unfairly to this current workplace? So just check your sense of safety, is it up to date? And if it is up to date and you still feel like the current workplace is unsafe, I think you'd be chatting well, reflecting on yourself, is this a workplace I wanna be part of? Or is this something I can cope with? And then how can I support myself? What do you think?

[00:34:57] Marie: I, I think all of that's good. And I would add, think about what you can also do. You can, if your workplace doesn't pay for supervision, okay, go, go, go pay for it. If cost is an issue, find a mental health professionals network or a peer supervision group, or grab some of your, you know, former colleagues or study buddies and say, maybe split the cost of a supervisor six ways and create your own paid supervision group. That'll be so much cheaper. Join a, I dunno, book club for mental health therapist. Like you can do a lot to manage distress. But I think some people, and this is a interesting one, it's come up in some of my, uh, EMDR sessions with clients, uh, lately, they almost don't want to because if they, they like, but if I'm coping with this, it means they get away with it.

[00:35:51] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:35:51] Marie: And so it's like I'll continue to suffer. And when we unpack the dynamic, they see that it's flawed, but it's still really hard to let go of. If I get good sleep and I go to bed early and I do this to cope with this bad environment, it's almost like I'm saying it's okay for them to treat me like that. So I'm going to, I'm not gonna pay for supervision 'cause I should be entitled to it, but they're not paying it for me, so I'm just not gonna have it. And, and I think there can be a resistance there. A part of some people can be really resistant of, it's my entitlement or I shouldn't have to. I don't know... there's something, there's something there. I've seen, I've seen and heard things that, um, and I've probably done that. I'm very, I can be very spiteful, um...

[00:36:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's a curious perspective.

[00:36:37] Marie: I don't know. What do you think?

[00:36:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I guess I'd be asking like, but you are witnessing your pain and you want other people to witness it by not sleeping or eating poorly or however you wanna cope with it, or not getting supervision. I just feel like you're setting yourself up to suffer more. It's important to support yourself, um, and then you can go through other avenues for righting the wrong, I guess. Yeah.

[00:37:04] Marie: But it's almost like I need the thing to change instead of me changing my reaction to the thing.

[00:37:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. I just dunno if you're gonna be very successful.

[00:37:11] Marie: You, you, you won't be. But that's what I, that's what I'm saying is some people get stuck.

[00:37:16] Bronwyn: yeah. I think, I think they do. It's like, it's that wish, I wish the thing would change. Um, but sometimes the thing doesn't change.

[00:37:24] Marie: And that's very ACT, isn't it? Is hold it lightly. Hold it gently, and it is.

[00:37:31] Bronwyn: yeah. Like. I guess an example that comes to mind for me is like, let's, like over overtime, for example, in medical professions is... everybody is expected to do it. So if you work in a hospital, you're expected to do overtime and you could be like to your employer, I'm only going to work these specific hours, and you can do that as a self-advocacy thing, but it may not be respected because the prevailing cultural expectation is that you work overtime. So you can get frustrated and frustrated in yourself, or you can accept the reality of the situation and go through other advocacy means. Yeah, it's just like, why keep pushing up against a brick wall that's never going to, to crumble, like in the way that you're doing it.

[00:38:13] Marie: Yeah.

[00:38:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. And yeah, it's very ACT-y, it's like, don't do the thing that's ineffective. Do the thing that'll bring you towards your values, which includes looking after yourself.

[00:38:22] Marie: Yeah. And I think it's confronting, I think values work. I mean, act hasn't been as sexy as some other, techniques at the moment 'cause I think it's not as, don't know why it's just maybe hasn't had the same marketing

[00:38:34] Bronwyn: I feel like it needs like an extra layer of like mystique or something to be cool and sexy, like yeah. Yeah. Act 2.0. Yeah.

[00:38:42] Marie: Um, brief ACT.

[00:38:44] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:38:45] Marie: ACT fa- family focus, ACT like.

[00:38:48] Bronwyn: I don't know, like, it, it, it works on like meridian lines or something, like it needs that extra layer.

[00:38:53] Marie: Yeah. the A-, ANZACBS, if you're listening, let's, let's do some ACT fixing, let's rebrand it. Make it sexy. It's good PR.

I think it can be confronting to think about if I'm not happy with where things are, what are my options? And one of those options might be that might not be the right role for you organization for you. Full time, might not work for you, or you live too far and the commute's killing you, and if you listen to our episode around, um, sort of the perfect job existing, there's some other indications there that might mean that there are lots of things in that context and not... there are some things you can affect and you might not like it. You might be like, well, why can't I get a job that pays well and is close to home, I can't afford to live there 'cause things are, yeah, all those things are true. And so what can we do?

And, and that can be hard 'cause sometimes complainings fun and it discharges the discomfort and it puts it out there. And how do we actually sit with that discomfort of what's in my control? What can I change? How can I reflect? And that bit, you know, come back to the topic of it is we would be kind of expecting clients to maybe do this. We'd have this assumption of that. And you feel like, I don't want to go to therapy, I don't wanna talk about it. I think that's something to explore more. 'cause how can you expect your clients to be open with you, vulnerable with you, trust our profession, trust the integrity of it, if, If, we don't? If we're like, oh no therapy's bullshit, or therapy won't work. I don't have time for therapy. But they need it. They should do it. They should think.

[00:40:26] Bronwyn: Not exactly. I think we should, uh, Is it? Walk the talk. Talk the walk? Walk the talk.

[00:40:32] Marie: Or just, and it, it's not to perfection, it's embody it and keep making, you know, I, I love the language for ACT, is just committed action. Do more things more often in that right direction.

[00:40:45] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. Yep. I completely agree.

[00:40:48] Marie: That's a great place to leave it.

[00:40:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, anything else you want listeners to take away from today?

[00:40:54] Marie: If you want me to hold a mirror up and poke you in supervision, look, I think it's hard. Look, it is hard, and I still find it really exposing. Brene Brown's leadership work... And if even if you're not in leadership, leadership doesn't mean you have to be in a position of authority. Leadership is still an interpersonal skill.

Um, some of her books like Dare to Lead, um, Gifts of Imperfection are, are beautiful. They're not, they're not too confronting. They're very good to, you know, even if as an audio book, if you listen to it, you might take some bits of how to overcome some of that perfectionism and change your narrative around having to get it right all the time.

Um, and then there's a book by Jenny Brown called Grow Yourself Up, which she's a family therapist using a, a very sort of Bowen Family therapy lens. It's really getting us to look at what we bring to interactions, what that evokes in us and our family staff can activate things in us that we take to other settings. Intimate relationships, friendships, so having a bit of an awareness of that, your attachment style, those sorts of things, they're lifelong. So I'm still learning and I'll do something in couples therapy training, I'll be like, oh fuck, I do that all the time. So it's, it's being okay to learn and grow and try and hold some of that kindness for yourself too, that it's tricky and it's hard. And you might still need to do some work on it, especially if your job is so interpersonal.

[00:42:34] Bronwyn: Absolutely. yeah, I guess my takeaway would be along similar lines. I think the greatest lesson I've learned from Brene Brown, like Dare to Lead and the, um, the imperfection book was about shame. Brene Brown is a great teacher about shame and perfectionism is one way to, um, avoid feelings of shame. And I think it's a great asset to every therapist to be able to know what brings them shame and to confront that shame, um, because we can create an exterior of perfection and we can bully other people who can get into conflicts, we can be dysregulated, all to avoid feeling feelings of shame, like we just chuck it externally rather than looking internally. So yeah, Brene Brown's work is fantastic for that, for coming into contact with shame and understanding it. And yeah, I think that'd be a great place to start. It's difficult work but worthwhile, I reckon.

[00:43:26] Marie: Yeah, there's a really good, uh, YouTube video of her around blame and how, uh, blame is the discharging of discomfort.

[00:43:34] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:43:35] Marie: Um, so if you, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Um, the, that-

[00:43:40] Bronwyn: that like where she's, she's got the coffee mug and she's like, Steve. Yeah. Yeah. That is such a funny little, little tale.

[00:43:48] Marie: But she, she's not, she's, this is what's made her storytelling so successful is she's sharing that stuff. That's what gets it- getting it wrong. I blame my partner, he cracks it at me and I have to deal with it. And that's, that's connecting and human.

[00:44:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Well, Marie, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this. It's been such a pleasure to have you on.

And listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, do listen to more episodes with Marie. I'll check a link to Marie's episode on the Mental Work podcast in the show notes. And thanks so much for joining us. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.