Mailbag: Tips for first client/fair pay for first job/finding a niche (with Marie Vakakis)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are doing a little bit of a different episode. It's called our Mailbag episode. It's where we answer questions that have been submitted by listeners, I hope you really enjoy it.

Here to help us out is one of our favorite returning guests. Her name is Marie Vakakis. Hi Marie.

[00:00:28] Marie: Hello. Another collaboration between the two podcasts.

[00:00:32] Bronwyn: A collaboration between Mental Work and inside social work. It's, it's really enjoyable. We're having a good time, hey?

[00:00:37] Marie: I think so. I like it. I think we're up to like, I think I was counting like maybe a dozen episodes, probably more now.

[00:00:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's, it's over a dozen. It's, it's pretty nice. Yeah. It's nice having men- uh, I was gonna say, it's nice having Mental Work friends, but I was like, you're not, you're not in that category. Um, but it's nice having podcast friends is what I meant to say.

[00:00:57] Marie: Yes, the power of podcasting and LinkedIn, I think.

[00:01:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, indeed. So Marie, we've got a few questions today. I am just going to dive into the first one. Does that sound okay?

[00:01:07] Marie: Sounds awesome. Some of these are, we've only just kind of decided on the questions now, so you're getting our raw, unfiltered first drafts.

[00:01:15] Bronwyn: So mailbag, question number one comes from James. Thanks James. And it is, what tips do you have for someone who is about to see the first ever client for therapy? What do you have for me when I'm going into this situation?

[00:01:28] Marie: Do you remember your first one?

[00:01:30] Bronwyn: I do, and I was thinking about this because my first technical client was a no-show, so that was my first client and I remember feeling very anxious and then they didn't show up. So then I learned what to do about no-shows.

And then my first actual client, I do remember them. Um, I remember being very nervous because firstly, I had my employer observing me. And then secondly, I had a whole interview, like eight pages of an interview that I was supposed to go through. So I don't think it was ideal in reflection because it really took me out of the moment with the client to try to answer these interview questions, 'cause I was trying to show my employer that I knew how to use the interview questions, but some of them were just like, uh, not relevant to the client or really out of order. It was really awkward. How about you?

[00:02:15] Marie: I can't, I can't remember, 'cause it happened so gradually through like student placement, you're sort of, you shadow you, you observe, you shadow, then you sort of lead something. And then, you know, when I was doing more counseling it was a bit sort of the same. So I actually, I don't remember, 'cause I think it was scaffolded quite well, especially on placements.

But I remember having students on placement and many of them were terrified, and I guess it was a conversation around that person's probably more scared than you. They are scared of what to expect. Are you going to be nice? Are you going to judge them like they are a hundred percent worried about. How you will see them.

So we're all the, we're all the main character of our story. So the therapist or the practitioner might be consumed with, am I getting it right? What are they gonna think? Are they gonna think I'm good enough? Have they looked at my resume? Or if I, what about this? What about that? And the client is probably thinking, will they like me? What if I don't like them? I don't wanna talk about this. This is really awkward. Like, so there's a good chance that they're not as stressed about it as we might anticipate in terms of they're not worried about us, they're worried about themselves.

[00:03:27] Bronwyn: That's such a good point because you're totally right. I remember some of the thoughts I was having when I was about to see my first client did include, are they going to know that I'm fresh, that this is my first session? Are they going to think that I'm incompetence? And mine was about competence, and I was very frightened. But hearing you frame it from the perspective of the client really helps because you're right, they want to make sure that this is good for them. I guess they're the center of their own world as well as well.

[00:03:57] Marie: Yeah, and it, it reminds me of, 'cause I re-listened to one of our episodes, um, I think it was around the first three sessions, what did we call it? Nailing the first three sessions or something like that. And that was part of the process that I advocated for, was overting some of the constraints or what's included. So even saying, you know, really nice to see, I have a little bit of intake paperwork. I just, I'd like to go through first, or I wanna spend a few minutes and, and get to know each other and then we'll go into X, Y, Z.

So if it's in a private practice setting, and I'll, I'll speak to that a bit more 'cause that's relevant to me, I'd, I'd look at all the paperwork I have because I think it's really inconsiderate to ask someone to complete all this paperwork and then not read it and ask them a question that you already have, the answer to, like, I think it just shows a lack of preparedness. Different, if you want to expand on it, but read through the mental healthcare plan or read through the NDIS um service agreement. Read through any intake forms or referral information, then just greet them by name. Just check is that, you know, any pronouns or do you like to be called? You know the names. Thomas, do you like to be called Tom or Thomas or Tommy? I've, I've got, I've noticed that you have Tom on one thing, but Thomas, on your Medicare card. Like introduce yourself, my name's Marie. Really nice to meet you. And just be human about it. Just like you might talk to a colleague, a friend, a date, an interview... you can take the pressure off.

[00:05:26] Bronwyn: Those are really good thoughts, and to build on that, in my five minute reflection that I had about this question, I was thinking along those lines that, we do already have the skills to doing this. So do remember that you have studied for this and you have practiced, and you have done the role plays, and you have done the recordings, but you also know how to be a human and how to talk to people. So there's a lot of skills that we do have both in our, in our normal lives and through our professional lives that we can bring into this room.

So, I guess I would say to people, don't be too concerned about, uh, I guess looking like, like you're silly or don't know what you're doing because you, you actually do know what you're doing and you can be a human and introduce yourselves and ask people how to pronounce their names and do you prefer to be called this? That's all really nice stuff.

[00:06:13] Marie: And I allowed, when I first started, I allowed for a lot more time in between sessions for the administrative side until I got quicker and more efficient at note taking. So I would have a decent break after each client so that I could decompress, I could write my notes. I always struggled to find the balance of taking notes in session, but I didn't wanna forget key bits. But do I just take a photo and scan it or do I type it up and now I just do a combination of it depending on who I'm working with.

But allowing some time throughout that day or that shift to do those things... can set it up for some good habits and just to make it easier. And then, but for second session, I'd just, I'd reread and glance over my notes from the last session.

[00:07:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, usually at a second session, um, I'm asking people for their feedback on the first session, how did you go after our first session? And then sometimes I might follow up with... there was some things that I wanted to ask you about as I've been reading through our notes and... blah, blah, blah. Um, so usually I do that or I ask them, was there something that you didn't get a chance to talk about last time that you would like to- like for me to know about? I don't often get a response to that question. People are a little bit shocked I think that I'm asking them. Um, but I do like to ask it.

 I think early career clinicians are really concerned about what they're going to say next. And I recall that being for me, and I think that really stuffed me up because as I'm thinking about what I'm going to say next, I'm missing what the client is saying and what they're doing. And so maybe a tip that I can, I, I think it's quite a nice tip, is that just focus on what they're saying. Um, focus on what's happening for them. The words will come for you when you listen well and carefully to what they're saying. What do you think?

[00:07:59] Marie: I think that's a key listening skill across the board, because good listening isn't listening to respond.

[00:08:06] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:08:06] Marie: It's listening to be curious and understand. And so I am just looking at some notes. I've been reading the book called, It's Called Rapport. It is by Emily Allison and Lawrence Allison. And so they are... one of them has worked in sort of forensic settings and with, um, interrogation techniques. So it's, it's pretty interesting. But one of the, the tips that they talk about in that is some of the, the, they call it the HEAR principles, so HEAR, and they're like honest, empathy as two of the sort of main ones.

 What stood out to me more of this is sometimes like if you don't know what to say, the most useful thing can be just a simple reflection. So it could be summarizing what I hear you say is this. Or it could be just pulling out a word or two. So even in that listener question or, or yeah, listener question, the mailbag, it could be, I hear you say your. May be nervous about your first session, and then they might talk about something and you're like... hmm, bit of uncertainty. So even just focusing on one word and paraphrasing that back, that is a really useful technique.

So having scripted questions, especially in those first few sessions, may not be what you need. And I have used scripted questions before. Whenever I've learned a new technique and I'm trying to stick to an assessment, but reframing, affirming, paraphrasing. Tell me more. What's that like? Can I, let me just make sure I've understood it right. Did I miss anything? Those key reflective skills, you can't underestimate their value.

[00:09:44] Bronwyn: Absolutely, and they really communicate to me, like, I often think that a core need that humans have is to be seen, seen for who they are and really understood. And I feel like with those key listening skills, you can communicate to that person, I see you, I'm trying to see you, I'm trying to understand you. And I feel like that's really well received from a client in the first session, 'cause like you said, they're really scared, most people when they come to a first session, they're like, is this person going to see me or are they gonna judge and dismiss me?

So, yeah, I, I can't overemphasize the importance of listening in a first session with a first client. And if, if the client leaves just feeling seen, then I think that's a gold star.

[00:10:26] Marie: Yeah, I, I love that. And I'm just going to quickly Google, um, 'cause one of the techniques was called SONAR, um, and they had the acronym as Simple reflection, On the one hand reflection, so, um, an example of how I've used that today is with a, a new client who's a parent, I might say, on the one hand, I hear you trying your butt off and doing everything you can and you're also feeling really unappreciated. And so giving them that, like, I'm summarizing, but I'm saying these two competing things.

So, No arguing. So not to argue with them. Um, Affirmations and Reframing and just having that as a communication strategy could be really helpful.

[00:11:12] Bronwyn: Totally. Any other core tip that you wanted to leave the listener with before we go onto the next mailbag question.

[00:11:19] Marie: You've got this, you'll be fine. You can get it wrong, you can apologize. You can show authenticity. You can repair if you have a rupture. It's, it's okay to be human and to be new and to be a bit nervous if it's your first time or a new workplace. It's, we've all been there.

[00:11:38] Bronwyn: Uh, I love that like. Uh, so encouraging, but so true as well. Like I've literally said to clients at the next session, I've been like, I asked you this question last time, but honestly, I think the way that I phrased it didn't help me quite understand what was happening. And, and I'm just wondering, could I, could I learn a bit more about that? Um, so you can absolutely find out more information and, and phrase things in a way, and you can, yeah, it, it all works out.

[00:12:03] Marie: And if you really wanna improve, you can use something like a session rating scale or, um, the deliberate practice, the, the taxonomy of deliberate practice and just focus on one piece of the work, whether that's in my introduction, in the building of the therapeutic relationship, like there's actually a formula. So if you google taxonomy of deliberate practice, there'll be a professional development kind of tool that you can use.

Or you can get a session rating scale. It could be on emojis like which. I'm just gonna send you a little thing at the end of our session. This is to help me make sure I'm getting it right. Thumbs up means this. Neutral face means- what, like, you, you can get that feedback in whatever way you want, if you really want it.

[00:12:43] Bronwyn: I would definitely troll a therapist if they gave me emojis, and I just like. Give them a unicorn or something and then make them try and think about it. Um,

[00:12:51] Marie: I would take a unicorn as like, I'm amazing. They think I'm the, I'm a unicorn like woohoo.

[00:12:56] Bronwyn: It would be a dual communication. Yeah. I would definitely do unicorn for like, you're amazing. And I also wanna send you a fun emoji. Okay.

[00:13:04] Marie: We- hopefully, listener, if you have had your first session, let Bronwyn know. Let let her know how it went.

[00:13:11] Bronwyn: Send me a unicorn emoji.

[00:13:13] Marie: Well, yeah, with some context. So we wanna get an update.

[00:13:16] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Um, okay, let's go to a mailbag. Question two. This one comes from Tess, and I feel like, uh, because I have such a drive to be transparent, it's like I could gloss over the fact that Tess is actually an upcoming podcast guest and she's recorded an episode with me and I asked her for a question. Um, but I'm not going to, and I, I just have to tell people that. So, hi Tess. I'm looking forward to having your episode come up on the podcast.

Um, but I did ask Tess, because Tess is studying her masters. In psychology. So I was like, oh great, an early career clinician. Tell me what your question is. And she said to me, okay, so she's thinking about is at what point in your career should you niche? Should you niche right from the start or somewhere down the track? And how do you know when is the right time?

[00:14:00] Marie: What are your thoughts on this?

[00:14:02] Bronwyn: I have a complicated relationship with niche-ing. Um, so, uh, I guess the first thing that comes to mind is that it's, I feel like it's different in Australia compared to internationally. I know in the US if you don't have a niche, it's because there's so many therapists. I think it's quite hard to your clients. Um, so I think having a niche in the US is quite essential actually.

Because of the, the relative, uh, lack of therapists in Australia. Um, I don't think it's as essential to have a niche, but I have come across to the idea that niche is great for marketing and it's great for reducing burnout. Um, so those are my most compelling. Uh, reasons too niche, but at the same time, I also think it's really valuable to get a lot of general exposure to lots of different presenting problems. I, I don't really feel helpful with this question. Help!

[00:14:53] Marie: I think it's a combination of, I mean, 'cause even a mixed bag, like even if you work in industry, which I think going straight to private practice is not a great idea for anybody, especially in, in the way that we do it here, where so many people are contractors, you're just not getting the collegiality, the support, the infrastructure, the mentoring, the training. It's just not there.

[00:15:11] Bronwyn: I totally agree.

[00:15:12] Marie: But even if you, if you apply for a job in a high school. You've kind of niched to adolescents. If you apply for a job at a CAMHS or CYMHS, you are working with young people. If you apply for a job at, I dunno, the Salvation Army, you might be working with substance use or um, through a men's behavior change program. So just like you might apply for random jobs, there's something about that that's intrigued you. And so I would, I think the nicheing can be helpful to help target your professional development. Otherwise, you, how do you know where to start?

Like if you're like, I like to work with 0 to 57 all presentations, like I... I don't know if I'd wanna go to somebody who does. It's like when you go to some touristy destinations and you get the menu and it's like pages and pages and pages and pages, and you're like, how do you even have space in your kitchen for all these ingredients? Like you can't specialize in lasagna and curries and pizza and this and that, and like it's, it's too, it's, you feel like you're not getting a good service.

[00:16:14] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. I have found it easier with nicheing to start out with what I, which presentations I don't see, um, which I found much easier. So for me, when I first started out in private practice, I was like, I'm not seeing people who have, for example, anorexia nervosa. I'm not seeing people who have psychosis or bipolar disorder. Um, I didn't feel as a solo practitioner that I was equipped nor trained, adequately nor had the supervision available to be able to see those presentations.

I found that quite easy. And then over time. I've developed into, I guess my niche is adults. Um, it sounds silly, um, but it is, and it's mostly anxiety disorders, which is what I feel good at and, and helpful with working with. But yeah, do you have a niche?

[00:16:59] Marie: Well, I, I started off with adolescents, so that was sort of when I first started private practice, my big focus was on teens. And then when I started family therapy, I realized I really like parent work and couples, so now I sort of do more relationship work. So I'll still see teens, but usually in the context of their family, but more people who are wanting to explore how their ill mental health or past experiences have impacted relationships, and so I'm getting people who have a lot of childhood trauma, um, maybe are very into things like understanding their schemas and how things show up for them rather than clinical levels of purely depression, purely anxiety. So yeah, a lot of family based couples work and childhood trauma. So coming from that EMDR angle.

But I, I've learned enough about eating disorder to do some screeners. I've learned enough about bipolar to again, do some screeners and have a differential diagnosis of could there be misdiagnosed, ADHD, and a mood component. So I've played around with different things and it just became... it became too much to go to the EMDR conference and the family therapy conference. And I also am in an ACT peer supervision group and a family therapy peer supervision group. And then I have podcasts that I want to listen to. It actually, it became exhausting. So when I stripped it back to a few things at the moment my big focus is couples, um, doing my, um, certification path for the, for Gottman training. And then once I finish that, I think I'll move into some more, maybe something else.

Um, yeah, so I kind of have a need. It does help kind of know how to introduce myself and what kind of referrals people can give me, and what my admin person can allocate.

[00:18:48] Bronwyn: Yeah, because that's the main reason why, uh, that's the main reason I see it being helpful. Because when I introduce myself to people and I might say that I'm a psych, they're like. Who do you see? And it, it was hard for me to have an answer. I was kind of like, I see people with depression and anxiety... question mark.

Cause I guess, I guess I know why they ask because they just wanna have something to latch onto and have a conversation. It's not necessarily a demand they're placing on me. I think they're just trying to be polite and interested. but it, it felt like, oh, maybe I should have a niche. But maybe you don't have to?

[00:19:20] Marie: I think you ha you would, it would serve you well to have at least some presentations that you know, you don't enjoy work with, or have a lot of understanding in.

[00:19:27] Bronwyn: Yes, I agree.

[00:19:29] Marie: Then some that you do. And the, it can be like your niche could be trauma, and you might know trauma, childhood trauma across all ages or your, your niche might be an age group. And then in that age group, you know a little bit about X, Y, Z.

But think about as a consumer, how you research things. Like I've recently had, um, knee surgery and it didn't, it's not anything particularly complicated. There were no complications. Recovery was good or normal and I'm not an athlete. So I felt really comfortable going to my general physio for that. I picked it based on location.

But had I had, when I had some women's health concerns, I wanted a GP that specialized in pelvic pain. And who knew about endometriosis? So I went to someone who, on their bio, talked about women's health.

So it depends on as a, you know, that might help give you some ideas... as a consumer, how do you find what you're looking for? And then you can reverse that a bit. So sometimes a generalist practice that might be fine? But if you're going out on your own and someone's flicking through a million Psychology Today profiles, will they pick you based on price, location, or because they read your profile and think, Marie understands me. Her qualifications, like I get that. I know what EMDR is. I want an EMDR therapist. Or they're like, I don't care. I just want someone in Footscray. She's got availability. So I guess you have to decide and, and maybe experiment.

[00:20:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, so I guess maybe like when we think of the word niche, maybe what automatically comes to mind is that you're going to be seeing these select presentations for the rest of your career, but maybe what I'm hearing from you is that you can experiment, you can put up what you're interested in and what you have training and experience in, and that can help consumers find you.

[00:21:22] Marie: Yeah.

[00:21:23] Bronwyn: Yep. That sounds pretty sensible to me. And do you think that you have to do that straight away? So would you recommend to someone who's just come out of Masters that they need to have that niche straight away? Or can they see general presentations and be okay?

[00:21:35] Marie: It depends on where they work and the demand and is there enough walk-in clientele that that feels good, or do you have to market yourself? So for me, being able to say, when I first started, I work with teens... when I met up with people and I said I work with teens, they would send me their teen referrals. I worked one day a week at a school. So they got to know those GP's that did The Doctors in schools program know Marie works with teens.

So if I just said I work with everything, I wouldn't even know who to talk to, who to market to, what to put on my bio. And I, I stretched it sometimes 'cause I felt desperate for referrals and I took some that... it was mentally taxing, you know, adjusting from working with a 14-year-old to working with a 6-year-old. I had to spend two hours going through like creative ways of working with kids and how to do the activities and do I have colored paper and pens and, and so the more similar the presentations, I think the more fluid the work can be.

[00:22:32] Bronwyn: I do think there's a good argument to be made early in your career for focusing on particular presentations because it allows you to apply those deliberate practice skills and to build confidence, um, in yourself and your skills and to build competence in, in those areas.

[00:22:49] Marie: Yeah, so I guess the answer is you have to figure out for yourself and your context matters too.

[00:22:57] Bronwyn: Hmm. Yeah. And I, I think that you don't necessarily lose anything from, like, I could see somebody being like, oh, but if I don't see general clients for a few years, then maybe I won't have the breadth of knowledge. Um, I would say that even if you niche in your presentations, like you see teams, uh, you would see many presentations across those teens, right?

[00:23:18] Marie: Yes, and you find what you're looking for. So if I started asking. Uh, my practice isn't known for working with sexual health. Like we get referrals, but it's not like we're a sexual health clinic. But if I started in my intake forms, asking every single person about their sexual health, I'm going to find curiosity about sexual health, questions about sexual health, potentially any, um, sexual trauma. And I've opened up a can of worms essentially, because I'm looking for it.

And so sometimes you find what you're looking for as well. If I wanna start thinking about grief and loss, if I start asking people in part of our intake, any, any note, any recent, um, bereavement or grief in your family, then they might say, yeah, my grandparent died. My sister had a miscarriage. You find it in, even in that same population group.

[00:24:10] Bronwyn: Yeah, so there's no, it's, um, it, it feels difficult having these questions and then giving, uh, not a black and white answer, but so rarely are these, are these answers gonna be black and white, but it is really like consider your own situation, and your own interest. Like obviously if you have an interest from the start or if you're going into a workplace that is already niched, then great.

[00:24:30] Marie: But I, I still, I'm leaning more on the side of having some niching than none, because how would you even know what supervisor to pick or what modality to do, or. What resources, what training to go to. So having some niching is going to be better than not.

[00:24:49] Bronwyn: Yep. I agree. Mm. Yeah, it's like I wish I'd done more because for me, I started out during COVID and like there was so much demand during COVID that for me, I was like, oh, I don't need a niche, but I wish that I had niche for the reasons you had just described.

[00:25:04] Marie: All right. Well, let's see. Yeah, next question.

[00:25:08] Bronwyn: Next question. Question three comes from Tamara. Thanks, Tamara. So the question is how much should I be getting paid in my first job? And Tamara gave me some context and said that she was working in private practice, so she wanted to, I guess, just know whether the salary she was being offered in a first year post university study was okay.

[00:25:28] Marie: Wow. Okay. I think that really depends on a number of factors. One, one is, is it a contractor or employee? And the other is looking at what rates are in your general, I guess the workplace, the industry and the, and looking at the award and then kind of figuring it out from there.

So I think some people have really conflated ideas of what they can earn and others on the other extreme, don't ask for enough. So I think there's- I think my first job was like $37,000. It was peanuts and there are a lot of industries that rely on underpaid labor of people who just want to do good. A lot of social services, a lot of community organizations will want qualified, registered social workers, psychologists, dual diagnosis- like dual. Yeah. Dual diagnosis clinicians, like all of these expertise and pay award. Or they'll say desirable but not required. So then they can get away with paying less.

So I think it, it depends so much on all of those things and how much they, if it's private practice, how much they charge you out at, are they having a graded sort of fee structure? Is it bulk billing? Is it not? So I, I don't think you can answer that exactly as one thing is going to work for everybody.

[00:26:57] Bronwyn: No. Yeah. My first thought when I received this question was, how long is a piece of string? Because you're right, it does depend on so many factors, even personal factors to you. So for example, you may be a first year psych, but have 20 years of counseling background, but at the same time, they're charging you out at the same rate as the other first year psychs who don't have those 20 years of counseling. So that might not translate to a salary increase for you.

[00:27:26] Marie: Yeah. And then some people, I worked in schools, so to try and compete with the school holidays, no, no other industry could compete with that. I, I, I still can't compete with that as a private practice. Like it's, so you've gotta look at those conditions as well, and what other things are available? Salary, packaging, extra leave, how many clients you're expected to see in the day. You know, there's a difference between being expected to see four and six or having a day of admin and, and note writing. So it is really, it's, it's almost impossible to say.

[00:28:01] Bronwyn: Yeah. How would you know if you're being lowballed?

[00:28:05] Marie: I would be interviewing people just like they're interviewing me. Have a few interviews and then look at like some places that are... private practice is very different 'cause it's, some people, like when it's a contractor split is anywhere from 30 to 50 or salaried. And it is a very not, it's not a very lucrative thing as a business owner. So that's a whole other thing there.

Being on your own, you might think, well, I could take the whole, you know, even at bulk billing, you might think, well, I can take the whole X amount of dollars, but then you have to work out a whole bunch of expenses. And we've talked about that in other episodes. But bigger organizations, their fees are pretty transparent. Sorry, their pays are pretty transparent. So if you're working for a department of education, a local council, any sort of community health, you'll have the award. You'll be able to see it, and you'll have clear career progression That's pretty inflexible, like it's, it's pretty structured.

[00:29:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. I think my tip would be seeing what other people in your exact role are earning as well, if you can find that out. I remember going on Seek to try and see if there were salaries put up in similar roles to mine. I found that quite helpful because there were salaries for some roles there aren't salaries posted. But that said, you can also ask other people, your colleagues, um, if you're part of groups, you can ask them as well. I think it's becoming less stigmatized to talk about salary and ask about salary, but I guess it depends on the circles you are swinging- swimming in as well. Um, but I think yeah, having some basis for that.

And I guess another thing that comes to mind is sometimes I've seen people online be really shocked with the splits that they're being offered. And they'll be like, oh, they're offering me like a 70 30 split. That's not enough or that's too much. And being really shocked and then being told that that's actually a really good split.

[00:30:02] Marie: Yeah, I think people need to stop looking at that and just look at the hourly rate because sometimes a lot of the business coaches I've worked with recommend 50 50. If you're gonna look at how much time and energy and risk it takes to build the practice of the no-shows, the rent, the infrastructure, any loans for furnishing, like there's a whole other thing there. Policies, procedures, admin, HR, legal, bookkeeping, accounting. We've talked about that. So I think it's, it's pulling in all of these bits and pieces and then figuring that out and what you might be willing to compromise on.

Some communities, the pay might be lower, because they charge lower, but overheads are lower in cost of living is different. Some places might charge a premium and expect a premium service from you, which might require more professional development, more supervision. Some have built in training budgets, supervision budgets, extra leave. So you're looking at all of that and the hourly rate and superannuation as well.

[00:31:09] Bronwyn: Totally. And then I think we've talked about this in the past before as well, but it's important to work out how much you need to earn, because you may have a mortgage and three kids and you need to earn a particular salary to be able to support yourself and your family , but the job you're applying for may not just be. Be in that salary bracket for you, so you may need to look elsewhere. So it's an important consideration as well. But yeah, just the question of how much should I be getting paid in your first job? It's just so difficult to answer that. You'll need to talk about it with other people, perhaps seek advice, perhaps seek what's normal from other people and take into consideration the entire package you're being offered as well as your own personal circumstances.

[00:31:48] Marie: I think it's such a tricky one because there's what you need and you might spend more than your means, and that might be something to then look at. Or you might think, well, hey, I've done six years of study and my partner's done three, and they're earning more. And sometimes the amount of study doesn't necessarily reflect the pay and it doesn't reflect the outcome. Clients don't care that you've got tho that many, those qualifications, those letters after your name, they want to know, are you helping me? And so they'll pay for what works for them.

[00:32:23] Bronwyn: I think that's the biggest mistake I see people online post about, and I completely understand, like putting on my empathetic lens, I completely resonate with people who are like, I've spent six years studying, I've sacrificed so much to be able to get this degree. The market doesn't care.

[00:32:40] Marie: Talk to a junior doctor.

[00:32:42] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, the market doesn't care. You have $30,000 in HECS. It doesn't care. It doesn't care. It cares about the service and the benefit that they're getting and their willingness to pay.

[00:32:51] Marie: Yeah, and it's not a guaranteed correlation between years of study and hexter and income.

[00:32:57] Bronwyn: Yeah. Ah, it's brutal, isn't it?

[00:33:00] Marie: It is it they, they're tough conversations. There's no right or wrong answer. Know your rights. You know, if there is a union, if there's people that you can ask- like get, get the information and balance that, you have to balance that to make sure what's allowed and legal and fair and then what reasonable conditions, what might be a wishlist? What you might want more of, what might be a promotion, what support you're getting. So there's so many factors there. I know I've taken jobs that pay less because they were closer. And then I've had other jobs that I was like, there's nothing you can give me that'll make this worth it unless the pays better. So you, it fluctuated throughout my career.

[00:33:42] Bronwyn: Mm, absolutely. And yeah, for some jobs I've been willing to take a significant pay cut because I'm like, I love the workplace. I love working with these people. I love the purpose, I love the mission. So yeah, it's so variable.

[00:33:53] Marie: Yeah.

[00:33:54] Bronwyn: Mm. Okay. Do you wanna move on to another question?

[00:33:58] Marie: Yeah. All right, so this question comes from anonymous. So hello anonymous. The question is how to protect your own energy and mental health in a private practice.

[00:34:09] Bronwyn: Mm. That's such a great question.

[00:34:12] Marie: As someone who's maybe recently transitioned out what worked and what didn't work.

[00:34:17] Bronwyn: What worked to protect my, my wellbeing... like the top strategy that comes to mind is to, uh, and not take clients' stories home with me. And I think that comes from, I think a lot of us who get into this helping profession, um, we really do care about people, but... I something that I've often repeated to myself over the past few years has been like, they've got their stuff, I've got my stuff. So it is emphasizing to myself the separation so that I don't become enmeshed in my client's emotional difficulties. If I become over enmeshed, then I'm gonna be less helpful and I'm going burn myself out as well, and the process.

So, I found it quite necessary to be able to have that compartmentalization, and over time it's become quite easy, to be honest. Like I feel very practiced at it. I'm like, they've got their own stuff. I help and I'm fully present in this moment for this hour, for this person in these emotions here and now, and then I'm going to exit out of that and I'm, I'm, I'm clear. Yeah.

[00:35:19] Marie: I love that.

[00:35:20] Bronwyn: Hmm. How about you?

[00:35:22] Marie: I, I'm as, as I read the question, I'm trying to like go back through the different sort of fluctuations for me. For me, it's been a combination of allowing enough time to get everything done during the workday. I made the mistake in my, one of my first, um, as a contractor for someone else. I'd do sort of the five till nine evening shift 'cause I was working at, around other jobs. And I would be like, oh, I'll just, I wanna go home because I'm hungry or tired, or I wanna snack, I'll do my notes tomorrow. And then, I'd go to my other job and then the notes would pile up.

So trying to allow for time. Now I allow for time within my day and not leave everything till the last minute, 'cause if I did, when in my head, when I look at my diary and it says my last client is at 5:30 in my head, I'm like, cool, I'm leaving at 5:30.

[00:36:12] Bronwyn: Me too.

[00:36:14] Marie: And I forget to do the notes. So now I've had to rearrange my diary to allow for the administrative tasks in the day. 'cause if I sneak off, look, I won't, I won't do them for a couple of days. And then I'm left with all these scrappy bits of paper that I've gotta scan and I might've forgotten to process an invoice. So I had to put in some systems and processes for that.

Um, and the, my, the biggest thing for me has been the most helpful, has been an active commute. To have a part of my commute, especially on the way home, either walking to or from riding. Now it's dark. I a combination of walk to the bus or I get off a bus stop station earlier 'cause I know the times when I get picked up or if I'm not walking to the, where I park my cars quite far from my office 'cause there's no all day parking... if I just go straight to the next activity, and I do that a couple of days in a row, my head's still swimming with all the stories. So having that space, whether it's an active commute, going to the, doing something between leaving work and coming home, that's been my biggest like most helpful thing, like to sort of process the day.

[00:37:28] Bronwyn: Those are two excellent points, which completely resonate with me and so I'll just go back to the first one, which was about the notes. That was also me. If I had a client at 5:30 and they ended at 6:30, I was like, I'm outta here. Stuff you past Bronwyn, um, notes can wait.

Um, but so the way that I worked that out was I had to trap myself. Um, and by that I mean that I had to book sessions an hour and a half apart, and then I would say to myself, no excuses, you need to do the notes after this session. You're not leaving until they're done. So I had to be quite firm and stern with myself, but it was in my best interest, and absolutely that was key to protecting my mental health because I totally noticed burnout, a first sign, was having my notes pile up. It's not good from a clinical perspective, and it's not good from a mental health perspective either. Um, so completely resonate with that one.

And also totally agree with you on the active commute. I either bike or I used to walk to my practice and I love both of those. And it just provides that space to have some downtime, have that transitional period to be able to process things in your mind. And so it is not like I was necessarily reflecting actively on those commutes... I, I don't know what was happening in my brain in the background, but I think it was just doing its thing and, and allowing itself to just cool down from the day.

[00:38:48] Marie: Mm. Yeah, absolutely. That cooldown's so important.

[00:38:51] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:38:52] Marie: My other thing was understanding what is actually possible. It relates to the case note thing, because if you're doing your numbers, and this person asked about private practice in particular, and you're like, cool, I'm, I work a 30 hour week, 38 hour week. That's X amount of clients. And then I, I felt get, I would put too many clients in and not allow time for the other stuff that come, not just the case notes, branding, marketing, file, audits, a subpoena, a GP letter, um, accounting, bookkeeping, reconciling stuff.

And so, understanding and doing work with different business coaches around money and budgeting and understanding how many clients you can see in a week, how many hours it takes to do the marketing outside of that, or your systems, processes, admin, whatever it is, supervision as a participant, like factoring all of those things in and then making sure you are charging enough for it to stretch over those.

[00:39:52] Bronwyn: Totally. Yes. I think that's an early career mistake, to take on too many clients, and it's often dictated by the workplace as well. They'll be like, you need to see X amount of clients. But you absolutely need to schedule space for, um, marketing the subpoena you receive the extra supervision you need, the training workshops that you're taking this week, those are, those are the work. Those are the work too.

[00:40:14] Marie: And I've seen so many people burn- and I, I was, I did that, all of that because I wanted to be as available as I can to see 20, 25 clients a week. And then anything I did was after hours. So I would see a full day of clients and then have supervision and then go to a professional development day. And so I've had to put in a lot in place to adjust my hourly rate, have more consistent client appointments to, and fewer turn, like fewer turnover. 'cause that the burnout from that of just having to have new, named new stories recognize everybody is really hard.

And now when I, when I run, let's say tuning into teens, I used to start my normal work day, finish it, and then go run it. I was like, I'm killing myself. So now I start at 12, finish clients at five, go to the council and then do my six 30 to eight. So I'd do an eight hour day, but I've shifted it. Whereas before I would do my normal 9, 9 30 start and then not get home till eight 30 or nine o'clock and be completely pooped.

So it, it was a process to make sure that the, the income was there, that I had a buffer and sometimes I still get it wrong and I overcommit but it- to weather those fluctuations. So that I can do this for the long, long haul, 'cause if I burn out, if I crack it first, I'll be really sad 'cause I really love the work, I love the outcomes, um, for clients. But then I won't get to... I got into this work to help people and I'll be no good to people if I'm angry, burnt out, or completely cooked.

So, I'm trying to go further. I wanna do this for, I mean, I can do this even when I'm completely incapacitated everywhere, but my brain like, this is a job you could do to your eighties if you wanted to, and I wanna have that option. I don't wanna be working as hard as I am now, but I don't want to give up completely.

[00:42:10] Bronwyn: Yeah, and it is a learning curve. Like what, what I'm hearing from you is that you've learned and adjusted this over time. Um, and, and that was the process for me as well. I started out pretty gung ho, realized that that wasn't sustainable. Adjusted over time, worked out what works for me. And yeah, I had to be very compassionate with myself. It's like, ah, like I stuffed myself over there. Okay, we'll try, we'll try differently next time. Um, and just, yeah, keep on going that way and keeping on learning. Um, ultimately, I said to myself, like, as a solo private practice runner, I was like, I'm in control of my time. Like, I need to make sure that it works for me. If something is wrong, that's, that's on me and I need to change that. So it, yeah, it is being proactive.

[00:42:52] Marie: Awesome.

[00:42:53] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:42:54] Marie: Good mixture of questions.

[00:42:56] Bronwyn: It was a really good mixture of questions. Thank you so much for everybody who's posted a question and sent it in.

Listeners, if you want to send a question to me, you can always DM me on Instagram. That's probably the best way to get in contact with me. Or you can send me an email at mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com. What can listeners do to get in contact with you, Marie?

[00:43:13] Marie: Um, the same LinkedIn. Um, you can, if you want it to be anonymous, just say, please don't use my name. Otherwise I'll just say, hi. This message is from Marie, like very generic. I'm hap I'm not gonna out anybody. I do have a, a confidential form that you can, you know, there'll be in the show notes, just an Inside Social Work, submit a question and if they're relevant to one of these joint mailbag things, we can do it jointly. If it feels very social worky, I might do it as a solo episode.

Um, but yeah, get in touch because they're the kinds of questions if you've got someone else probably does too.

[00:43:49] Bronwyn: Let's leave it there. Well, listeners, that's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to Mental Work. It's been a great collab between me, Bronwyn Milkins, and Marie Vakakis. Make sure that you put this into somebody else's ears so that they can enjoy the episode too. Hope you have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.

[00:44:06] Marie: Bye everyone.