LISTENER STORY: Psychological safety at work and understanding contracts (with Anita Knezevic)

[00:00:04] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today is a listener story episode. I love these episodes. It focuses on a listener's career journey, unpacking what they wish they knew, what you should definitely know, and where they're headed in the future.

In today's episode, specifically, we're going to be touching on some really interesting topics, including psychological safety at work, burnout prevention, and legal issues that early career mental health workers may face. I hope you enjoy today's `conversation.

Here to share their story with us is our first time guest, Anita Knezevic. Hi Anita.

[00:00:44] Anita: Hi, Bronwyn.

[00:00:46] Bronwyn: It's so nice to have you onto the podcast. Thank you for coming on.

[00:00:49] Anita: No, thank you for having me. I'm so excited that the timing worked out and that I get a chance to, yeah, be on the podcast with you.

[00:00:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's really exciting. Could you please start off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:01:03] Anita: Of course. So I am a recently registered psychologist and I've predominantly worked with children and families and adolescents, um, in that professional capacity. But then outside of my work, I am someone who loves to read, watch TV shows, be outside, and yeah, just a bit of a homebody.

[00:01:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. Nice. Congratulations on getting your registration. That's a really big achievement.

[00:01:28] Anita: Thank you. Yeah, it felt like the longest journey ever. But at the same time, you look back on it and think that was like so quick and all of a sudden you are this new psych.

[00:01:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. It, that's a really good summation of, of that journey, yeah.

So Anita, could you describe what drew you to wanna share your story in the podcast and where it begins?

[00:01:51] Anita: Yeah, so throughout my internship process I did the, obviously the five plus one pathway, which meant that I did my one year masters and then, uh, roughly a year and a half of an internship. And in that internship, I felt really lost in the process of deciding what I wanted to do when I became registered, and then feeling like I didn't have the right people to talk to about it. And the ones that I did speak to had very polarizing views on what to do.

So I felt very stuck. And now that I've come out of that and starting to see it in hindsight, it made me want to share that experience with other people. And yeah, so essentially that story really begins about halfway through my internship when all of it just started to unfold. And yeah, certain experiences came out.

[00:02:44] Bronwyn: Hmm. It sounds like it was pretty hard for you at times.

[00:02:47] Anita: Definitely. I think a rollercoaster best describes it, just very up and down, hard to know where I was going, what I was doing, and how it would end up as well.

[00:02:59] Bronwyn: And I think that's a lot... like you're trying to learn how to be in the profession, like learn the craft of the profession. And then you've got this whole other space, which is like, what am I doing? Where am I going? It's just a lot to take on.

[00:03:11] Anita: Yeah, a hundred percent. And look, psychology is one of those like, careers and professions that people can start at any point in their life. I've met people who have started it after having a career, after being a parent or, I don't know, some people are in their sixties. But for me, I'm started that in my early twenties, so I had never had another job before this in a professional capacity... Navigating the early career stuff and other personal life things, it was a lot to learn and go through in such a short amount of time as well.

[00:03:47] Bronwyn: Totally. Were there moments where you doubted what you were doing? Were you like, maybe this pathway isn't for me?

[00:03:53] Anita: Definitely. I think I almost wanted to quit or even just take really long breaks from it to maybe think, all right, I need to take a couple months off... wind down, relax, recover from the burnout, then maybe go back to it. But it was one of those things where even though the work was stressful for me and the experiences were really hard, at the end of the day, I still really loved my job and I still really enjoyed the clinical work I did, so I knew that no matter what happened, I would end up in the right place regardless.

[00:04:28] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's a, it sounds like you came to a really satisfying conclusion. You were like, this is hard, but it's the right pathway for me. I know it, I guess in my heart.

[00:04:37] Anita: Yeah, like a gut feeling that it wasn't the job itself, but a lot of external factors around me that were making it harder. So I knew that there was an end in sight, obviously for us it's to get registered, but for me it was also, this isn't the workplace, this isn't the environment that I need to be in forever. So that helped.

[00:04:58] Bronwyn: It's such a powerful conclusion as well, because I think a lot of early career psychs, they can automatically blame themselves and they can jump to that and be like, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not cut out for it. Maybe I'm really bad at this, and just all sorts of negative conclusions about themselves. And I think kind of rarely do they look towards the outside and be like, well, maybe it is the environment that is contributing to what's happening here for me.

[00:05:23] Anita: I know, and I'm sure my partner, my friends, my family were also there in me, like a, like we're along that journey to say like, don't worry, there's an end goal, like you're not there forever and it's okay. They could see also the joy in it. And so I knew that even if I felt I wasn't cut out, that was just that inner critic, that voice in your head just getting you down because you had a tough day or a tough week.

[00:05:51] Bronwyn: That's pretty cool that you could have that perspective. It sounds like you had some really good supports along the way to help you out.

[00:05:57] Anita: Yeah, definitely. I'm sure... I'm looking back at it with rose colored glasses, as we always do, um, in the moment, maybe I wasn't as reflective, but you know, it's a ever evolving journey as a human, as a professional, and yeah, we're all just figuring things out for the first time. So trying not to be too hard on myself for that as well.

[00:06:22] Bronwyn: Nice work. So Anita, you mentioned earlier that during your internship you were in a workplace which didn't feel the most psychologically safe. Could you just take us into that experience? Like what did it look like? What did it feel like for you at the time? How did you know that it was psychologically unsafe for you?

[00:06:39] Anita: Yeah, this was a tough one because I actually didn't even know, of what a psychologically safe workplace meant. You learn about it in uni and you hear about like cultural sensitivity and responsiveness and making everyone feel like, uh, supported in that process. But it wasn't until towards the end of my internship that someone said, it sounds like you're not in a psychologically safe workplace. And I just thought, what do you mean I work with psychologists? Of course that's gonna be a safe environment. Um, so yeah, it wasn't until someone else told me that that was what was going on for me. I don't know if that's something you've also like, maybe seen yourself firsthand or from, yeah, other clinicians that you've worked with.

[00:07:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, I do think that..., it's funny hearing you say like psychologists psychologically say, if it's in the word, it should be, it should be what it is. Um, but yeah, definitely. I think having somebody who's an outsider looking in, giving that perspective can be so helpful because when you're in the thick of it, you're like, well, this is normal. And particularly, as you were mentioning, like this was kind of one of your first roles in, in, in psychology, but just, ever as well, and so you, you might not have had a sense of what's acceptable or what's not.

[00:08:01] Anita: Yeah, definitely. And until that person was able to highlight it for me, that's when I started to do more of the introspective work and the reflection where I started to compare myself to other people at work with their experiences of supervision, their experiences of the workplace and their clinical work, and I started to question what was wrong with me because their experience was very different, and sometimes they would have more positive experiences, and that was where I was like, okay, then it's on me. I'm failing here because if they're able to do it. Then something's wrong with me.

And then that just came out as defensiveness. When I then would go into, say, supervision, or even in my role, I became really compliant with the things that I had to do because like you said, it's your first role and you just assume that's the norm. So it wasn't, yeah, until someone told me what was happening, then I could look back like, hey, this is what I'm doing here.

[00:09:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. And were there any internal signs for you? Like, were you feeling uneasy or was, was it that somebody else pointing it out, highlighted or you were able to access those feelings as well?

[00:09:22] Anita: Probably a combination. It definitely... is that person who told me that the workplace didn't seem very psychologically safe. Then I noticed that the times that I kept getting sick, or sometimes I'd be anxious to go to work, and people have this like 'Sunday scaries' on the day before, obviously Monday going into work. I had like 'supervision scaries', I would literally be terrified to go on the days to work that I had supervision because I thought, this is where I'm gonna feel out of depth. This is where I'm gonna be told I'm not doing the right things or that I haven't done enough work. And yeah, it just felt like this stomach ache every time I had those days. And, just so disappointed in myself a lot of the time, and I didn't really know what was going on in my body, and I just blamed myself for getting sick all the time.

[00:10:20] Bronwyn: No, that makes me feel really sad, 'cause it's like as a provisional psych, you need all the support you can get. Supervision should be a supportive space where you feel like you can get the help you need. And yes, it involves reflection, but you should be supported to reflect in a way that improves your practice and makes it safe and yeah, we don't want the 'Sunday scaries' applied to the supervision like sessions.

[00:10:41] Anita: Yeah. And like I mentioned, um, before, like the internship felt very turbulent, like a rollercoaster, and I think it's why it took so long to notice this, because I didn't have all bad supervision sessions or all, like, they weren't all bad days at work. There were good moments and so that's when I was like, hold on, what's happening here? Because why was that day better then? Why was this one bad? And it just felt like I was having to handle my emotions, my like competence at work while also holding space for clients. Then holding space for my like colleagues and stuff who were contributing to that psychological unsafety. I wouldn't, yeah. How to...

[00:11:30] Bronwyn: I get what you mean. Yeah.

[00:11:32] Anita: Yeah. And it was a lot, to take on.

[00:11:34] Bronwyn: It's a lot, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it can be too much. It's like, yeah, that's, it's too much.

[00:11:41] Anita: Yeah. And this profession is so unique in itself as well. Like there's, I have friends who are lawyers, who work in finance, who work as teachers, and even when I explained some of the things that were going on, their advice or their suggestions weren't often helpful because it, they didn't have as regular supervision, they don't have those requirements of the internship or anything like that. So it's not like I could just go to, I say a HR department or something like that because psychology sometimes is a really small place to work in. You might be at a practice that only has like three people, so who do you talk to as an early career psych? So it felt very isolating at times. Um, but still my community were amazing, as in like my friends and family. They were still supportive throughout that.

[00:12:32] Bronwyn: It sometimes, like if you go to a workplace as a psychologist, it's like, the principal psychologist is the HR, the supervisor and the owner of the business all wrapped into one. And so you don't have a HR to go to.

[00:12:46] Anita: Yeah. And that in itself, if I ever saw that, I would probably see that as a red flag. If they were like all wearing all these different hats, um, I probably would be asking for different things if I were to work at a place like that.

[00:13:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. So one of the things you mentioned to me before coming on the podcast was that you felt really unsure when it came to contracts. Could you just walk us through the kinds of clauses you came across that maybe felt a bit uneasy or you're uncertain about, or you look back now and you're like, maybe I'd approach that differently?

[00:13:21] Anita: Yeah, so the reason why this became such an important thing for me was when I was leaving a role and starting a new one where I was looking at the contract and seeing lots of differences between my old one and the new one, but also in the process of leaving that workplace that I was in, what my employer and what my supervisors actually raised in terms of the clauses on the contract and thought, hold on a moment like this seems so much more serious than when I first signed on, I don't actually even think that I gave it a second thought. And yeah, so contracts were weirdly really important despite not being a lawyer.

[00:14:06] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess like had you had many contracts at work before or was this different to what you'd previously experienced?

[00:14:14] Anita: Yeah, I think they were different because the work that I had done before being a provisional and now a registered psychologist, where your very typical teenage retail jobs here and there where you don't look at the contracts, you don't read over them, you just look at how much money you're getting and like when that paycheck comes in. So those were the important things.

It wasn't until I was leaving where I had people reminding me like, don't forget your non-competes. Make sure you don't tell clients where you're going. And for me, when I was in my internship, I also had a training repayment. So my employer had paid for additional training that was outside of their allocated amount of, like, budget that you get for PD. Which is really typical and really common, especially if it's like a, a real specialized training course.

So when I first signed on, I agreed to pay back a certain amount of money if I left within a certain amount of time, which is all very standard and normal. But when I left, it's something that I hadn't considered. I signed on at the very start and just kind of forgot about it because I thought, you know what? I'm gonna be here for however long. It won't matter. I won't have to pay it back. But unfortunately, I did.

[00:15:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, things change. Um, I was in the exact same position, um, except my contract was supervision payback, and at the start of my internship I was like, great workplace. I'll work here forever. It'll be fine. I'll pay it back and it'll be cool. And then. A few years later, it was very different. I was like, I don't wanna be here anymore. And then I think as a provisional, it's like you're left with a lot of money to pay back. I think for me it was a few thousand. Um, and I was like, geez, I don't have that in my back pocket. I've just paid for the national psych exam. I've just paid for a lot of other things to get this registration. I don't have that money, but you needed to pay it back. And I was like, oh gosh. It really caught me out.

[00:16:20] Anita: Yeah, definitely it caught me out as well, but when I was also leaving, there was an added caveat for me because I had decided to become a contractor post registration. And so as we all know, with contracting comes a riskier income stream, it, it kind of ebbs and flows and so me leaving, having to do the repayment with also a less consistent pay afterwards, I just thought, well, I wish I had maybe thought about this before, maybe double checked my contracts to prepare and plan and just, yeah, be more conscious of that decision when I did decide to leave.

[00:17:01] Bronwyn: Yeah. So what do you wish that you had known before signing these contracts?

[00:17:06] Anita: I wish I put in place like a review system. And what I mean by that is when you sign a contract, you might feel in that moment, in that time and place that you agree with it. It aligns with you. But like you said, if you are there for a year and then you decide that maybe something isn't working here or you wanna try something new... before even thinking of quitting, I would actually go back and look at the contract just to be like, all right, if I did decide to leave, what would that mean? Do I have non-competes? Do I have non-solicitation? Do I have training repayments? All of these like really complex things to consider, and I know I've just thrown in a lot of legal jargon in there as well... but just having like a review process. I wish I had done that before making the decision so that I wasn't kind of blindsided by it at the end.

[00:18:04] Bronwyn: No, that's really solid advice and I completely agree with that. And I would also add, check what's legal in your state as well. I'm not 100% on this, but I do think a few years ago that non-compete clauses became illegal in some states or not supposed to put them in particular contracts, or they're supposed to be a different way... don't quote me on that, but there's something about that that has come to my attention in the past few years.

[00:18:28] Anita: Yeah, and like you said, don't quote me either on, um, legal, legal advice. So if you are ever concerned about these contracts or the legal aspects, please consult your own kind of professional advice. But I think that's true and a lot of employers prey on young, naive, um, workers to not know this information and they create a bit of like fear mongering around leaving workplaces or, um, even telling clients where you're gonna go because they're concerned about their businesses and, and all of that.

And I'm not against anything in these contracts, even like the training repayments, like at the end of the day, the business needs to survive. They have to protect their interests, and that's totally fine. But you as an individual need to protect your own interest. So I think being aware, being, um, know, like, um, educated on it as well is really, really important. And that's basically the number one advice for everyone, not just psychologists.

[00:19:37] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. And it's a really empathetic situation to be in because like you say, a lot of young psychs, it was the same for me. I worked in retail like Muffin Break and Rebel-

[00:19:45] Anita: Yeah.

[00:19:46] Bronwyn: -stuff like that. And it's like I didn't read any contracts. I was just like, yeah, you can pay me like seven bucks an hour, whatever. Um, yeah.

[00:19:55] Anita: You are from WA so you'll know what red.is. That's where, that's where I started.

[00:20:00] Bronwyn: Ah, there you go.

[00:20:01] Anita: ...and for everyone else, that's kind of like a Reject Shop.

[00:20:03] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:20:04] Anita: -shop, but yeah, that's where I started. So I was like, cool, 15 bucks an hour, I'll take it. Done.

[00:20:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. And you're not like, I don't recall reading these contracts. It's like, I should have, but it's like you just, you just do, and I think like when you get into your first psych role, it's very much like they'll take care of me. It'll all be fine. It's like being like, oh, okay, know your rights. Like now that you're in like kind of a big, a big person job, okay, we need, we need to know our rights.

[00:20:30] Anita: Not everyone is like that either. Where when I started one role, they said, don't worry, this is a standard contract. And so me, young, naive, early, excited for a new job went, cool, it's a standard contract, happy to sign it. But then it wasn't until I swapped into a different role and signed that contract before I even went to sign it, the person, um, said, read through it. If you have any questions, there's lots of things that are confusing in there. I know that maybe you haven't seen this before. Please ask questions and we can go through it together. And I just thought that's kind of nice. I want someone to give me a chance to ask questions and not just assume I'm going to sign my soul away to the workplace.

[00:21:17] Bronwyn: And sometimes a standard contract might not work for your individual circumstances, so we're talking about repaying training and supervision, for instance, it's like your personal circumstances may not allow you to have that amount of money in your back pocket that you can pay back. So it's really important, even with these standard clauses to be like, does that work for me?

[00:21:36] Anita: Yeah, exactly. And one thing about my, um, training repayment was it didn't allow for flexibility in reflecting how much time I had worked there. So it was more just a blanket statement of if you leave within this amount of time, you have to pay this amount. But if you stayed for like half the time, if you stayed for like a majority of the time, the... sometimes those contracts don't actually reflect the time and effort you have actually put in that workplace.

And so that's why I encourage people to review their contracts regularly to kind of be like, hey, do I need to update this? Do I need to speak to my employer about maybe negotiating or revising certain aspects of the contract? So yeah, things change and you need to be the one to do it because sometimes your employer won't have your best interest at heart.

[00:22:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I mean, I'll just chuck in, uh, a recommendation in general for listeners. So listeners, your... uh, professional association, there's a, there's a free helpline that you can call and you can ask somebody who's really experienced about your contract and what's normal and what's not, and if they feel like they're not equipped to be able to help you with that. With our professional indemnity insurance that you have to get as a provisional psych and as a registered psych, there's usually a clause in there that you get two free hours of legal advice every year. So you can call them and be like, can I use this? What's the lawyers that you have? And you can call them and talk through your contract as well. So if you really don't understand something, you are not getting answers, just know that there's external help available.

[00:23:17] Anita: That's actually really amazing and I didn't even know that.

[00:23:20] Bronwyn: There you go.

[00:23:20] Anita: Who knows? That may have saved some time with, um, with my contracts and everything, so I'm definitely gonna use that, I think.

[00:23:28] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, student membership for a professional associations, it's usually cheaper. I know with a AAPI, it's $50, I dunno what it is with APS right now. But yeah, there's, there's free advice. There's free legal advice you can get with your professional indemnity, so it's well worth it.

[00:23:44] Anita: Yeah. Amazing.

[00:23:46] Bronwyn: There you go, mm!

Anita, I think you raised a really important ethical question around, I guess what we're calling non-solicitation clauses. So this is where workplaces say to you, you can't tell clients where you're going for your next job because they're my client. Um, technically they're owned by the business and that sometimes goes into contracts as well. How did you navigate these, these ethical conundrums when clients wanted to stay with you after you left?

[00:24:12] Anita: Yeah, definitely. And like I said, I worked with children and families and so with kids, sometimes they get really attached and they get really invested in that process with you. And same with parents. If you've built a really strong therapeutic relation with. Relationship with the family, naturally they wanna know where you're going. They wanna continue that. And so it was a really tough spot to be in, especially as an early career psych, to be able to navigate that.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the best of guidance in that process and I had very mixed views from different mentors around me, um, from like my supervisors and also other like senior clinicians, um, as well, where I had some telling me, oh, it's not a problem, you can just tell them where you're going. And then others who said, you aren't allowed to say where you're going. Please don't do that.

So feeling really caught and stuck in the middle, I ultimately just decided to do what was in my contract to protect my interest and to not obviously hurt the business in any way, but weirdly in that process, a lot of my clients actually understood that and said, don't worry. I know you can't tell me where you're going. And I was like, whoa, I'm supposed to be holding space for you here, but here you are holding it for me. Um, so some of my clients are really lovely in saying that.

And, another thing for me that I felt really lucky in was that the workplace that I was in had lots of, uh, team members. So, and I had really positive relationships with all of them too. So I knew that even if I wasn't the one continuing the care for my clients, that they were going to be in really good hands with other clinicians. So for me, that was lucky.

But I know, like I said, every practice is different in size. You might be in a place that only has two or three clinicians. And so then it's like, what do you do there? And at the end of the day, I really reflected on this and thought we are a service, um, and we move all the time, whether it's our location, whether we're moving to a different suburb or interstate or even just changing a role. Like, I could have gone into a government role where I don't actually see therapy clients, so the continuity of care may not have even been possible.

So, I knew that no matter what happened, that the clients were still looked after, even if it wasn't with me, whether that be with someone in the team or if they found someone external, I knew that those options were given to my clients. So, yeah.

[00:26:59] Bronwyn: That's good. And so you're meeting all your ethical obligations there.

[00:27:02] Anita: Yeah, definitely. An interesting thing that happened though once I left and was talking to a different colleague was that when I was looking for jobs and going through interview processes and all of that, someone had mentioned that they were open to discussing, um, continuity of care with clients if I decided to leave, and this was maybe a case by case situation. So for example, clients who were high risk, or clients who had a really hard time finding the right therapeutic fit. And so actually continuing the care reduce their risk of dropping out and ultimately was the ethical responsibility of us to keep going as much as maybe the business wasn't wanting that it's better interest for the client than it is for the business, and that is what our job is, right, at the end of the day.

[00:27:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, I mean, just to reinforce that, it's like our ethical obligations are to the client first and foremost. So the client has autonomy about who they choose as their provider, and we need to make sure that we are, we are obliged to take care of the client. It, it may hurt the business, but it doesn't hurt the client, and that's what, that's what ultimately matters.

[00:28:15] Anita: Exactly, and I think businesses and employers to some extent know that that is the risk. When people leave, that Google exists, search engines, GPs and all of that, um, clients will move to where they want to go. I've done it too, I've done it with, I've even done it with my dentist before. They moved to a completely different place, and I actually really liked them, so I just Googled them and I found them and continued on with them.

[00:28:41] Bronwyn: I did the same thing with my massage therapist.

[00:28:44] Anita: Yeah. Yep. I-

[00:28:45] Bronwyn: I was like, I'll follow you wherever you go.

[00:28:47] Anita: Exactly, and look, sometimes I'm open to trying new people, other times I'm not and I can't make that decision for the client, but I know that I did the right things, I still gave them options. And yeah, I think that's all we can really do at the end of the day.

[00:29:05] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I just wanna point out like just the emotional and cognitive labor like this produces in an early career psych, 'cause it's like you're managing competing things. It's like you're trying to manage the business, you're trying to manage your ethical obligations, and you're genuinely trying to do the right thing, and it's so hard to figure out on your own and just to work out what is the right thing to do here. It's, it's just so stressful. I just really empathize with the situation that you're in.

[00:29:30] Anita: Yeah, it is. And I've just noticed that like a lot of people have really, really strong opinions in this industry about what is best for the business and best for like early career psychs. And I'm like, do you wanna actually ask the person what is best for them? Because maybe they know themselves better than... I don't know you or your experience or anything and be collaborative in that process.

[00:29:56] Bronwyn: Hmm. Yeah, what a, what a novel thought.

[00:29:59] Anita: A, yeah, what a strange idea.

[00:30:01] Bronwyn: But yeah, yeah, collaboration and person centered approaches usually, usually do well.

[00:30:07] Anita: Yeah, I think so too. I mean, lots of research around it, but beats me.

[00:30:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Did you end up finding a supervisor who, who you do feel safe with?

[00:30:17] Anita: Yes, I did. And they have been so wonderful, um, throughout this process as well. Um, unfortunately they came a little bit later on in the internship, so I found them towards the end, um, and I'm just really excited now being registered to have that autonomy over my supervision process. Because, as a lot of early career psychs might know, you get placed into supervision arrangements, and sometimes you feel like you have to just go with what you're given with, and it might not always be the best or it might not be the right fit for whatever reason.

[00:31:00] Bronwyn: Mm. Yeah, I'm curious to hear more about your perspectives on this, um, because you're right. I think a lot of early career psychs, they do get assigned, particularly like if you're doing a master's course and there are limited clinical psychs available, for example, then you get assigned who you're given pretty much, and that might not be necessarily a good fit for you. And it sounds like you were in that situation as well where you were assigned somebody.

[00:31:24] Anita: Yes, yeah. And, with provisional, uh, psychology, uh, arrangements, you have to be an employee. You can't be obviously like working for yourself as a contractor. So sometimes what people do is they include supervision into that, and it sounds like you had something similar where you had to pay back some of your supervision if you left.

So some of that is included. Some of it you pay, they might provide you with a primary, and then you find yourself a secondary. It's all very different, but, most of the times you do get assigned someone, and that can be really difficult to go through because for me, I felt like I had to stick with them for the entire time. And the option to try someone new or to experience different supervision was not welcomed. And so I thought, well, I just have to find a way to make this work and that definitely led to some burnout, definitely led to a stronger sense of, um, imposter syndrome and just my confidence I think in the workplace really went down, um, because of that as well.

[00:32:34] Bronwyn: Yeah, that really sucks. Again, it's-

[00:32:36] Anita: Yeah.

[00:32:37] Bronwyn: -it's just, it's just such a lucky situation. It's like, yeah, it's... you're just trying to learn the profession and you really need somebody, a supervisor who can help you and who you feel safe with and comfortable with, and who you're a good fit with. And yeah, it just sucks when you don't necessarily get that space. It's like a, a lucky dip kind of-

[00:32:57] Anita: Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:59] Bronwyn: -who you gel, gel with, but you might not.

[00:33:01] Anita: Yeah, and that comparison trap that I fell into was so strong because someone else in my team was getting along really well with them, and I thought, why am I not getting along well with them. And another colleague working in a different, like, practice and actually different state completely, they talked about their supervisor, like being the best person ever and that they didn't, wouldn't know what they would do without them. And I thought, I don't really know how I feel about my supervisor relationship because they're so experienced, so knowledgeable, and it's amazing what I've learned, but at the same time, something didn't sit right at the end of the day. And like I mentioned, those supervision scaries that I would feel, obviously my gut feeling was pushing this idea that something wasn't right. But then I couldn't balance that with how good they were as a psychologist. And so I was so confused all the time of like, is it me? Is it them? Is it us? I don't know what's going on here.

[00:34:01] Bronwyn: Mm. Really difficult relationally to work out. I totally relate to that situation because you wanna... there's a situation where like your friends might have a great supervisor and you're like, oh, tell me about them, and they're like, oh, they're amazing. And I did the same thing. I went to one of my friend's supervisors and it was a completely different experience. And it wasn't that the psychologist wasn't amazing, I'm sure they were amazing for my friend, but then it was just different for me. And yeah, I think I came to the conclusion it sounds like what you are coming to, which is that it wasn't that there was something wrong with me or them, it was just us.

[00:34:34] Anita: Yeah, it wasn't the right fit between, um, both of us. It's kind of like friendships or even like romantic relationships where neither of the person are bad, but when you put them together, they're just not working. And it's better for both mentally, emotionally, psychologically, to just part ways and to either be friends or colleagues, but don't have such an intimate or vulnerable position, because early career psychs are navigating heaps of things, and if they don't feel supported by their supervisor, then really who are they going to because they have to see them every week ideally.

[00:35:15] Bronwyn: So maybe the, the recommendation we're putting out to listeners is like, it's important to listen to your gut, don't blame yourself, and don't be afraid to seek another supervisor.

[00:35:25] Anita: Absolutely. I'd also even try speaking to the supervisor about your working style and relationship, um, your working relationship, that is. Because I definitely tried to have those conversations, and it wasn't received well. That should have been my point to be like, okay, well this probably isn't gonna work out for us. Let's just stay colleagues and I will find someone else who will fit that style.

So I think it's also, try to work things out. You don't wanna just have one bad day with someone and be like, nah, I don't wanna work with you anymore. But to try to work out some of those differences. Be collaborative, be curious and understanding. But yeah, at the end of the day, if your gut feeling. Is really prevailing here, then talk to whether it is the supervisor, whether it is someone outside of work, your employer, whoever you go to, ask them what to do in that situation, because you need someone to help guide you through that. It's hard to go through it alone.

[00:36:28] Bronwyn: I completely agree and totally agree about bringing it up with them if you feel able to. I've done that with two supervisors now about minor ruptures and both are handled so well and easily my favorite supervisors and we are... have a great super supervisee supervisor relationship, so it's like if it's received well and you can repair it, it does bode well.

[00:36:49] Anita: Yeah. And you feel stronger. You feel like you can be more honest and open with them. I definitely had that with another colleague. This wasn't a supervisor relationship, but we had some differences and it was more about, okay, how do you see it? How do I see it? What do we do instead? And we were able to kind of work on that. And then the next time when something didn't sit right, both of us had the confidence to be like, hold on, like, let's go back a few steps and work through it. So you feel, yeah, more supported in that way?

[00:37:22] Bronwyn: It sounds like you've reflected so much and come so far in terms of thinking about this, which is really great. One of the areas that we wanted to talk through was that you received a lot of different advice when it came to whether you should go into contracting or employment when you got your registration, and I wanted to know what that process was like for you and how did you make your decision in the end?

[00:37:44] Anita: Yeah, so. Like the previous experiences with just my workplace and supervisor, um, relationships... that there were a lot of polarizing views, a lot of, please don't do this or you should really do that, and you feel kind of stuck and everyone just kind of sat in one basket, no one ever thought to ask you, well, what do you want? What do you need out of this? And someone did ask me, what does your working style look like? What does your work, um, what do you, where do you see yourself in, in this role? And when I described wanting to be flexible with my time, being able to pick and choose my hours, being able to work from home or, yeah, just real autonomy over my role, they said, oh, it sounds like contracting is something that would work for you, so maybe we look at that instead of employment. And I thought that is a really collaborative, cur- curious approach to working out something that was really tough on me and weirdly, I experienced some fear mongering around contracting because of just horror stories that people get, um, sham contracted, all of these like fair work legal aspects that happen. Some people who were paid a super. They weren't paid a tax and lots of different things came up and they were like, please don't do contracting 'cause that's gonna happen to you.

So what I did after having that conversation with the person who suggested it would be a good idea for me was I went through fair work, I did all of the researching, Googling. There was a, um, guide to early careers like PDF resource that talked about the differences and important things to consider. Obviously the financial aspects. So you don't get paid sick leave, you don't get paid your tax and super. You have to do that all yourself. So once I knew what contracting needed to have in that process, I thought, yes, this is something I can do. I'm able to speak with the professionals around accounting and legal aspects and. I wanted the flexibility and so the decision was right for me and I didn't let other people's perspectives cloud that judgment. And I think, yeah, just trusting my gut in that process helped me through it.

[00:40:11] Bronwyn: That's awesome. It, it sounds like you felt more confident when you were able to be more informed about what contracting involved rather than say, listening to what other people might perceive. It's like going straight to the source.

[00:40:24] Anita: Yeah, exactly. And I don't think employment is a bad option either because some people aren't good with the legal side of things or they don't feel confident enough to receive accounting advice or to have to worry about all of that, and they want steady income. So that was something that I thought, great, that's not really for me. I trust myself in, in doing these things. I'll make sure that I'll be getting the right advice from people, but I didn't think one or the other was better or worse. They were just different.

[00:41:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's such a good way of putting it because I think you're right, A lot of people have this top-down approach and opinions of being like contracting or employment is better or worse, full stop. But like you said, the approach of asking yourself, what do I need? How do I know myself, which options suits me better? Ended up working well for you.

[00:41:20] Anita: Yeah, exactly. And. The way my work is split up is that I work half a week as a contractor and I'll soon be starting half of my week working as an employee at a school, so as a school psychologist. And so weirdly, I have half a steady income, half the fluctuating contracting income, and so people who might want to do contracting can still also have. Employment as well as like a backup and kind of split their time between the two.

[00:41:53] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, a really good point as well. And I just wanted to add in as well that Fair Work does have a lot of great information about contracting, um, like you mentioned, and you can actually speak to Fair Work as well, so you can call them or they have a little, like you can submit a question query type thing. I've done that in the past and they've been really helpful.

[00:42:13] Anita: Yeah, and the sham contracting stuff, they have even examples of what it looks like. So you can even look at what maybe potential red flags are, um, for your contracts and, and all of that as well. So I think, like you said before, being well informed is going to help you make the right decision.

[00:42:33] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. With everything you've described Anita, like how, is there anything else you wanted to share about how you now approach your decisions about work or contracts or supervision a bit differently?

[00:42:44] Anita: Yeah, I have been on a huge journey and I'm still early in my career, like I've only just become registered, so I know I'm going to go through more ups and downs, but what did happen for me and what I went through, I wouldn't want other people to go through that, and I wouldn't want myself to go through it. I know I'm grateful that it happened because it gave me clarity on my values and also my boundaries as well.

So with different things like contracts, I know what to do now, what to ask for if something isn't sitting right, I know how I would approach those contracts. And then with supervision, I'm really now gonna be intentional about choosing the right supervisor. Asking questions and being really more, focused on the working style and relationship I have with my supervisor.

And always just doing little check-ins with myself about. Is this still working? Am I being challenged and supported at the same time? Because I don't want a supervisor who just goes with everything I'm saying. I want them to push back on me. I want them to challenge me and to push me through hard things, but I wanna feel like they've got my back in that process as well. So really focusing on my values and yeah, trusting my gut instinct in these processes as well.

[00:44:10] Bronwyn: That's awesome. I'm really pleased to you that, like you say, it's not like you'd wish it upon people or that, yeah, it's, but it's helped clarify things to you and helped you to get more in touch with what's important to you.

[00:44:24] Anita: Yeah, definitely. And things that might seem like a good opportunity on paper doesn't always necessarily mean that it will be the right fit for you, and it's going to be a ever evolving process of maybe in a year's time things will be different and I need to review this because it's no longer working for me.

[00:44:42] Bronwyn: Totally. So Anita, where are you headed in the future? You mentioned school psychology. That's exciting?

[00:44:48] Anita: Yeah, so that's gonna be a huge change for me. I've only ever done private practice, and of course I've worked with schools in that process of like doing assessments on kids and speaking with teachers and everything. But I'm really excited to have some nonclinical work. So I will be obviously speaking with teachers and students and parents, but in a different capacity and I think that will challenge me in some ways, give me some reprieve from the one-on-one clinical work, um, but then still really excited that I get to have that therapeutic relationship with clients and yeah, help them achieve their goals and just give them a more fulfilling outlook on life and everything like that.

So for now, that's gonna be my focus. It's gonna be recovering from burnout, healing from all of this, and returning to myself a little bit. So like my interests and being with my family and friends again.

[00:45:46] Bronwyn: It sounds like a great plan and just, yeah, knowing that you've just got on your general registration, it's like you've probably been doing case studies, exam-

[00:45:54] Anita: yep.

[00:45:55] Bronwyn: All that kind of stuff. It's a lot on your plate. And then finishing up your hours, paperwork, the 20 pages that you need to do to complete your general registration paperwork. It's a lot.

[00:46:05] Anita: Yeah, definitely. And I was someone who rolled in one after the other of like my undergrad into honors, into masters, into the internship. So I actually never had like a break from any of it. And now I think we're gonna focus on healing and returning to my values and no large, big career plans yet. We'll come back to that later.

[00:46:28] Bronwyn: Oh, sounds like a great plan. I'm so glad that you, you're in the place that you are in now and that you've got the plan to focus on you and take care. Um, Anita, what do you hope most that listeners will take away from our conversation today?

[00:46:43] Anita: Well, I think that I would like people to know that even if you're still learning through this process and being early in your career, it's okay to ask the things, it's okay to have a working style, to have different needs and to maybe not know some things. Um, but to be confident in your gut and to know that you can ask for things that you need. And to advocate for yourself.

And I really wouldn't have been able to get through this process without having a solid community. And of course, it's gonna look different for everyone, whether it's friends or family partners, um, whether it's career like supervisors or mentors that you have. Honestly, even this podcast, I was telling Bronwyn, um, before we started that this podcast actually helped me get through a lot of tricky situations and made the experience feel normal as well. So definitely have a listen to other episodes that might speak to your situation so that you know that there are other people going through it, and that it's not a forever thing that you will find somewhere that works for you.

[00:47:57] Bronwyn: Hmm. A nice plug. Thank you.

[00:47:59] Anita: Yeah, yeah, of course.

[00:48:02] Bronwyn: And I'm so glad that the podcast helped, but I'm also so glad that you've had that support around you. Like we've been touching on this episode. It can be extremely isolating to go through what you're dealing with. Particularly if you don't have people around you who really get what's happening and they're trying, they're trying really hard.

[00:48:19] Anita: Yeah. They are.

[00:48:20] Bronwyn: -can just still feel so isolating. So I am glad that you're able to have that support.

[00:48:24] Anita: Yeah. And there's lots of online places as well for early career psychs to go, whether it's like, um, Facebook groups or, um, even through, I think you were saying like the APS or other professional bodies where there are people that you can connect with that maybe can give you that external perspective as well.

[00:48:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. I found the Facebook groups when I was a prov psych really helpful. Um, and I, and I met up with lots of people in my state to do exam study and that was really awesome.

[00:48:54] Anita: Yeah, definitely. My only, um, note on that would be to sometimes not let it, like sweep you away from the goal. 'cause of course, other people going through really difficult sticky situations can instill that fear. So make sure that you're still checking in with like yourself and other experienced people around you so that it's not the blind leading the blind a little bit.

[00:49:20] Bronwyn: Yes. Stay grounded.

[00:49:21] Anita: Yeah, stay grounded. Yeah,.

[00:49:23] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:49:25] Anita: Yeah.

[00:49:25] Bronwyn: So, Anita, if listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:49:30] Anita: They can find me on LinkedIn, which is that ultimate platform for all professionals to connect and learn from each other. I love reading what other people do. I love seeing their takes on changes to the workplace and even just perspective on things like contracts or supervisor relationships. So always happy to open up my circle to new peers and learn from wonderful people all over. Um, so you can find me on LinkedIn and I'm sure my name will be on the show notes, I think.

[00:50:04] Bronwyn: -pop it in the show notes, so I'll make sure your name and then-

[00:50:07] Anita: Yeah, it's a, it's a tough name to spell, so definitely.

[00:50:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, we'll make sure we give the direct link. Um, Anita, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a real delight to chat with you.

[00:50:20] Anita: No, thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad that we can make it work and hopefully can shed some light on some of the experiences that we all go through and make someone else feel a little less alone in that.

[00:50:32] Bronwyn: Absolutely.

Listeners, if this episode struck a chord with you, do help get these important conversations out to more early career mental health workers. So pop it in their ears. The best way to get the podcast out there is to tell people about it, so you can also leave us a rating or review or share the episode with someone who needs to hear it.

That's a wrap. Thanks so much for listening to Mental Work. I'm Brendan Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.