Imposter syndrome revisited (with Marie Vakakis)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about imposter syndrome or rather revisiting it.

Imposter syndrome was one of the first episodes I recorded on and I wanted to revisit it now that I'm later in my career I've got different thoughts about imposter syndrome and just different experiences. It's something that I think a lot of people in our profession can relate to, and so if you've ever felt like you're faking it as a therapist or fear being found out as incompetent, despite evidence to the contrary, you're definitely not alone.

And in this episode, it's a collaboration with me and Marie Vakakis from the Inside Social Work Podcast, and together we're gonna revisit imposter syndrome. We are gonna have a look at what's so common amongst early career clinicians in particular, how we've both seen it evolve over time through practice feedback and growth.

So, hey Marie! It's so nice to have you back.

[00:01:01] Marie: It's always nice to be back. Now I have like a running list of things. I'm like, oh, who can I talk to this about? I'm like, this can be with Bronwyn.

[00:01:07] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's, it's awesome. And my understanding is that you had an early episode on your podcast about imposter syndrome as well, right?

[00:01:15] Marie: Yeah. Um, three, about three years ago. So when you brought it up as a topic, I was like, oh, this is really cool. I did one and I remember actually doing it with some, back then I had a Facebook group for Inside Social Work, um, now I closed it down, but it generated a lot of discussion and, and people had kind of emailed and DM'd me and now listened to it again, I'm like, oh, I've changed, I've learned new things. I've seen it differently. So it's really good to do a second one.

[00:01:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. And I remember in your podcast in particular, because I listened back to your episode, and it must've been around the time that this big article came out, which was titled Stop Telling Women that They Have Imposter Syndrome. And I remember reading that at the time as well, and I think that influenced a lot of your thoughts as well.

[00:01:59] Marie: Yeah, it did. Uh, I should have reread it for this, but I, I have some pretty good memories of it. Um, yeah, maybe I'll just link to that in the show notes and people can check out the first one. We're not gonna, it's just not gonna be like part two that you'll miss out on something amazing if you just listen to this episode.

So what were you thinking? This was one of your first ones that you did. This was about halfway in my career. 'cause I, my first lot of podcast episodes were interviews because I felt like too much of an imposter to actually even have a solo episode.

[00:02:28] Bronwyn: Oh, interesting.

[00:02:30] Marie: So that was quite interesting to think about that. Now I do more solo episodes. But what was it like for you revisiting that?

[00:02:38] Bronwyn: It was really interesting. I think the key question that I've got now, which I hope that we can unpack later in this episode is, does imposter syndrome ever go away? Because I think I've come to a place of acceptance that I'm going to be having some feelings of self doubt. And it's not necessarily that that's pathological or a syndrome necessarily, it's just that those feelings and thoughts kind of hang around and part and parcel of working in mental health. And so I think, yeah, that's what I'm left with. I'm like, does imposter syndrome ever go away? Um, and how can I manage it so that it's not interfering too much, I guess.

But I thought that we could first start off with what are we talking about when we talk about imposter syndrome? Because I think a lot of people are talking about different things. So I'll just start off with a definition that I picked up from the Australian Psychological Society, the situation in which highly accomplished successful individuals paradoxically believe that they're frauds who will ultimately fail and be unmasked as incompetent.

It was originally described in relation to a group of female college students. I think that was just one of the early studies. And these people, despite excellent grades, nonetheless, felt that their achievements had somehow been the result of chance or error.

And in subsequent follow-up studies, men have also been found to be susceptible to imposter syndrome. There was a big uptick in the use of the word imposter syndrome when high executive women were examined and it was found to be amongst those women, and I think it actually started out as imposter phenomenon by the researchers, and then it went to syndrome.

[00:04:12] Marie: Yeah, I think I mentioned some of that in my original episode, was the history of it, and the original studies, yeah, imposter phenomenon. And then I guess now more colloquially it's been used, but maybe not always the most correct way?

[00:04:28] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's... I think it's used pretty broadly. So like some of the symptoms that are researched for imposter syndrome, which are commonly attributed to it, are persistent self-doubt, and that's how I think of it. I think of it as self-doubt, but other symptoms can be feelings of inadequacy despite objective success, emotional exhaustion, low self-esteem, difficulty internalizing success. When people compliment you, it kind of just goes over your head and it's like, oh, that's almost like they, they don't mean it, that's luck, I shouldn't have gotten this. It's just opportunity, right place, right time. Shame or guilt over your achievements. And I guess some thoughts might be like any moment now they'll realize I don't belong, that there's something wrong with me. If I make a mistake, it proves I was never good enough to begin with.

And some of the behaviors might be overworking or over preparing to compensate. Avoiding challenges, procrastination. So I guess like what, what I'm thinking of it as is... chronic self-doubt that might interfere with, I guess, your values and your life that you wanna lead. So it causes you to go into these behaviors which you hope will compensate for the beliefs that you're gonna get found out, or there's something wrong with me. But actually it makes things worse in some cases.

What if you come to know imposter syndrome as?

[00:05:45] Marie: All of those things came up in the original research I did around Imposter Syndrome being marked by self-doubt, inadequacy, not feeling good enough. I guess it's kind of the same low self-esteem. The shame and guilt didn't come up originally.

But I wonder now if it's used, it's kind of like saying I'm a perfectionist, or I think I wonder if it's just used really flippantly as a way to mask some of these more vulnerable things.

[00:06:15] Bronwyn: I think that's a really good question, and I would almost certainly say yes. I think as a society it might be more acceptable or comfortable to say, oh, I've got a bit of imposter syndrome, rather than this thought of there's something fundamentally wrong with me that feels a bit more vulnerable to share.

[00:06:33] Marie: Yeah. The thought that comes to mind for me is, I don't know how other, how it is in other countries, but we have a really big thing with tall poppy. And so if you're trying something new and you kind of are nailing it and you talk about it, it seems braggy. So people don't want to hear that you are a... like it comes across as, oh, I don't wanna be arrogant, or I need to be humble or, and so even if you did nail something. you did really good at it. I think as a culture we discourage that at being boastful or arrogant. So it's easy to say, oh, but I'm, I still feel like an imposter or... but when we break it down to those feelings, they provide a lot more clarity into what's actually happening. Like, I don't feel competent in this moment, or I haven't had enough feedback to feel like I know my skill level.

So there's, if we break it down into the different feelings, I think that's a lot more helpful. But I was going to ask you, how do you link this to some of the schema work you've done? Being really kind of into schema therapy, where does this, where does this lie? And for people who dunno what's schema therapy, look it up. It's amazing. Bronwyn and I both love it. Um, I'm thinking unrelenting standards.

[00:07:54] Bronwyn: Yes. Well, absolutely. So I mean, chemotherapy in a nutshell says that we've had childhood experiences where our core needs were unmet or frustrated chronically or big enough to cause these beliefs about ourselves. Like, I'm inadequate, nobody loves me. And then that causes us to also engage in behaviors to try and compensate or get away or avoid those beliefs which might help us have survived in childhood. Let's say that you think you're defective and you don't think that you can get enough attention so you overcompensate and be perfect... might have helped you get mom and dad's attention when you're a child, but as an adult it might cause you to burn out chronically.

Um, so some of these things can show up. So I'm thinking definitely unrelenting standards. So that's when it is what it sounds like. It's just like nothing is ever good enough. The goalposts always shift. And then the other one I was thinking of was defectiveness, which is, there's something wrong with me.

[00:08:47] Marie: And then how you act, you can overcompensate or surrender. And so how might that show up? Let's say we're talking about therapist in any of the disciplines, whatever pathway you've gotten there, it's four to six years, somewhere along the lines, to sit in front of a client for your first client session, they walk in the door, or even in the preparation for your first day, how might it show up if you've got unrelenting standards and you feel like you're an imposter?

[00:09:18] Bronwyn: If you've got unrelenting standards and you feel like you're imposter and you're surrendering to that, that means that you fully internalize in the belief like, I'm not meant to be here. Let's say a client gives you praise and they're like, that was a really great session. I really enjoyed how you listened to me in that way in this session. For a therapist, with that, it would just be whoosh. It goes over your head. It doesn't land on you, you discount it. So you're like, oh, they didn't really mean that. Or like, you just don't feel it. It's like, hmm, that didn't mean anything. I'm still an imposter.

So nothing, no external evidence to the contrary, makes a difference or a dent in that belief. Um, which is really sad. So like, you might not go for promotions or, or other job opportunities 'cause you're like, I am gonna get found out. I am an imposter. I don't deserve to be here.

[00:10:03] Marie: And if you overcompensate?

[00:10:05] Bronwyn: That would be, um, I'm guilty of this... It's like if you ask me how imposter syndrome shows up for me, it's not, it's not terrible. It's not, um, interfering, but I'd say previously it would be working 24/7 to make sure that no one ever finds out that what you think of is unworthy in yourself, then nobody sees that. And because I can learn quite quickly, it's like, it's a double edged, it's a double edged sword for me because I can learn quite quickly, so I can actually be like, okay, I'm just gonna fake it to my, make it, and I'll just work for the next 24 hours to make sure I read this book and I've got the textbook in my head. Now, I'm good.

But then, like, you know, you don't sleep for a few days or like. Yeah, you're tired and you, you just running on empty to make sure that people don't have this view, which is completely false.

What about for you, Marie? Like, is, is imposter syndrome something that you even relate to or is it, is it not sank on your radar?

[00:11:02] Marie: Yeah, it is. And even re-listening to that episode, I remember how long it took me to actually do that episode because I had this thing in my head, and it's still, it still shows up, but it's like, surely there's someone out there who's done their PhD on imposter syndrome. Who am I to do an episode on this? Who am I to start a conversation or to share my thoughts? Like, I'm not an expert. I didn't write that original research study.

I, so I, had this, and maybe it's because I do admire and have quite a lot of respect for academia. Um, I also hate parts of it, so that's quite a a contradiction there, but I felt like I'm not the expert and I don't wanna be putting junk out there into the world. And yet I talk about it with families, with clients, I talk about it with peers, it comes up in supervision. So how do I explore this topic?

So there is a bit of that putting for me. It shows up a lot in putting content out there. And I, I was taking some notes as I was relistening. I hate relistening to myself, by the way. Um...

[00:12:11] Bronwyn: When I listen to myself talk in my head, I sound like a 13-year-old teenager and, and I don't like that.

[00:12:19] Marie: Oh, I don't even, I don't wanna even think about that I just don't enjoy it.

[00:12:24] Bronwyn: No.

[00:12:24] Marie: For me it shows up in putting up- putting out stuff. So the first webinar I did, I was like, well, who's going to come to me, I'm not the expert. If I run, like I did some presentations at conferences, like why would people come and watch me? I'm not an expert, so I had this belief. That you had to be an expert in something like, completely 100%. No one could debate it. That was your, you know, 10,000 hours in that topic. And I worked with a business coach actually, who rephrased it as, you don't have to be a expert, you can be a contributor.

So once I started to see it like that, that you can be, you don't have to be an expert, you're a contributor. Or you're a contributor, not an expert. That shifted it, that I can share what I've learned up to this point, how I've interpreted it, and learn as I go and document that as I go, and if you're in the, if you're in private practice and you're doing marketing, you might have come across Gary Vaynerchuk, and he's got a lot of really great marketing books, but he talks about this, just document, your learning as you go. So it could be, hey, I came across this term imposter syndrome. Never heard of it before. Here's what I've learned so far, and then three years later we have another podcast episode where it's like, hey, I re to this old one, these things still remain true, and I've learned some new stuff.

So it does still show up for me, and it's less around feeling like an imposter. And now I can separate it into those smaller feelings like, do I feel unprepared or do I feel inadequate? Or am I intimidated? So I can, I've had a, I've got a, capacity now to unpack that and look a little bit deeper and understand the nuance around what that looks like for me in different situations.

Am I scared of criticism? Am I scared of saying something controversial and I'm getting a little bit better? It still doesn't go away of if I say something someone's like, well, that's incorrect, men also experience imposter syndrome. You're right. I'm really sorry I didn't think about it. That just shows my own internal bias and then I can add that to my knowledge bank and update that.

But it's, it's scary because some people can be really mean. And therapists, I don't know why, but can be really, really ruthless with other therapists. Like, and they go straight for the jugular, like that is unethical and really hardcore stuff, right? And it's like. There will be a blind spot for you. A hundred percent. Get off your high horse.

[00:15:03] Bronwyn: 100%.

[00:15:05] Marie: Uh, so yeah, that's sort of how it shows up for me.

[00:15:07] Bronwyn: There was two points that I wanted to bring out there. First of all, I love that reframe around, I don't need to be an expert, I can contribute. I, I, that's so great and I'm so glad that it's worked for you because I think a lot of early career professionals, they would be like, I'm not the expert and this person has 20 years experience on me. They're allowed to speak, but I'm not, I'll need to gain 20 more years before I have anything to say about being in this profession, about my work experiences, about anything really. And, yeah, I think that's really sad. So I think reframing that as I can make a contribution with what I've learned so far is so valuable.

And then the second thing I wanted to pick up on was how specific you're getting about your feelings. Because I think imposter syndrome, if you just say to yourself, I've got imposter syndrome. It's almost like a non-specific term to refer to a bunch of potential feelings and thoughts. Whereas you're saying that you are able to, I guess, examine more deeply what it is that you are feeling in that specific moment. Is it intimidated, frightened, anxious, inadequate, and really, uh, I guess examine that for yourself, which I think is awesome too.

[00:16:16] Marie: Because how would we- imagine how we would look at it with something, and this example haven't fully formed it yet, so if it doesn't make sense, we'll just delete it. You know, imagine if someone did a animation, I don't know, Pixar made a movie about fish and then Disney were like, oh, well we can't make a movie about fish 'cause someone else has made a movie about Fish. And then they just never made another movie about Fish or redo the real animation of, or the live action of the Little Mermaid or something.

So, when you think about it like that, it's like the, we can all contribute. We don't all have to watch the same one movie just 'cause one person did it. We don't have to listen to the same one speaker on a topic. Even experts in their field will have disagreements. Even something that seems really black and white and right or wrong, can have shades of gray, indifference of opinion.

And so maybe it's how we structure our society to think about right or wrong, fact provable, and we've lost those interpersonal skills of curiosity, conversation, conflict management that makes this a lot more pressured. Maybe it's as a bigger systemic thing?

[00:17:38] Bronwyn: Yeah. I think you're onto something there, and I would agree. I'll relate it to an article I read in preparation for this, which was talking about how imposter syndrome can be thought about or may maybe mainly has been thought about as an individual trait. It's like you've got a tendency towards imposter syndrome and there's something about you that's leading to that.

The study I looked at looked at how the structure of workplaces can fuel imposter syndrome. So this study specifically looked at the role of organizations. Um, they used a survey to have a look at whether competitive work fuels imposter- imposterism, and they found that it did. So this was in 1,288 people, and what they found was that when organizations work, climate emphasizes competition, imposterism increases. This is partly explained by employees tendencies to compare themselves to higher functioning employees, in these competitive work climates.

So it's not just something inside of you, it's something that can be created by systems outside of you, which I thought was really interesting.

[00:18:47] Marie: I had reflected on something similar, and I don't think I read that exact article, but in my original episode I talked about if it's so common, then we have to think maybe it's a systemic thing. And that goes to, I think, what you are referring to in that article.

Is it how we've talk about progress. Is it how we give feedback, give compliments, structured learning and growth? And I think we've touched on deliberate practice before, but if you're coming at it with a model like that, yeah, that's a lot more structured and gentle, but also fluid and flexible of bringing in, how do you do this bit and look at sort of components of your work, which is so different to how you are tested and quizzed in order to get to this point in your career.

So social work doesn't have those sorts of exams. It's a lot more essay based and inter and um, oral presentations and that kind of thing. So unless you do psychology and you have to do statistics or you have an elective, we don't have that same kind of pressured exam-based learning. Well, it, it didn't at the time. Maybe it'll change now with people using AI for essays.

So there's a little bit of a difference there, but you're trained still from school around grades and the feedback is like, this is correct or incorrect, and maybe we don't have a culture of scaffolding learning in a way that feels supportive and feedback be constructive and that not be linked to our self-worth.

[00:20:27] Bronwyn: I completely agree and I think that is really sad, 'cause I agree that I think we lack the nuance there. And I completely resonate with what you were saying before, that sometimes when we put ourselves out there, we may get nasty comments that are just like, you're being unethical. Who do you think you are? What do you know? And that can really take a dent to our confidence and our willingness to do that again. And some of those, uh, I guess, systems can be present in our studies as well, and, as a consequence, we might internalize that harsh feedback and that becomes our voice. I should have done better. I expect to hold myself to maybe an unreasonably high standard all the time.

[00:21:09] Marie: I was thinking about the individual words and how this can come up, not just in, in the workplace, but I've seen even parents sort of say, I feel like an imposter. Who am I to do this? and I wonder if that speaks to a similar thing of maybe we don't have enough conversations about the journey, the struggle, we share the highlight reels. People might post on LinkedIn their most recent, I don't know, degree certificate or something. And so instead of it feeling like I'm an imposter, maybe we're actually saying, I don't have role models of this. I'm not sure if I'm on the right track. Do other people find this hard? Am I the only one? So there's a deeper level of reflection there.

[00:21:56] Bronwyn: Yes. I was just thinking when you said that I get really triggered on LinkedIn when I see people post their latest research article, because I've currently got three under review and they've been under review for about 12 months now. And you don't see people posting on LinkedIn being like, oh, I'm waiting for my paper to be accepted, and this is the fifth journal I'm submitting to, which is like my experience and I'm, I know it's a common experience. You just don't see that. You only see the end result, which is, this is the published paper and it makes me feel inadequate. And I'm like, why are they so easy to get their articles accepted?

[00:22:31] Marie: Whereas maybe the question is, I don't, is it this hard for everybody? And if everyone was like, if everyone said, yeah, then you wouldn't feel like an imposter because you wouldn't be different to the norm. That would be the norm. But we hide that.

[00:22:47] Bronwyn: I wanted to bring up another dynamic when we're talking about, rather than imposter syndrome being individual, the systems around it, around us can influence it, and I wanted to just talk about this in relation to racial and ethnic minorities and people of diverse characteristics, in that there are some environments which are openly hostile or have microaggressions towards people who are of diverse culture, language, disability, and other characteristics. And I think, absolutely, it's so understandable that you would then be fearful that I, they're gonna tell me I don't belong here, 'cause you feel like you don't belong.

Um, and, and I'm not saying that that would happen for everybody and as a white person, I don't have the first person insight into these experiences, but from what I've read of the research, this does seem to be a thing that happens amongst, minoritized populations.

[00:23:40] Marie: Yeah, that came up when I was doing research too. If we break it down though, and you have some awareness, maybe it's not, I feel like an imposter, maybe the reality is I recognize that I'm marginalized and I have to work my butt off to even get noticed.

So even then, if we start to break it down, imposter is almost like I'm, I'm going to be found out that I'm fake, but it's, breaking that down, I can see that maybe we didn't have a good enough way to explain or capture what I, this means, imposter syndrome, I dunno what the psychometric testing or what quizzes was done. But if you break it down to a marginalized group or if you look at intersectionality, then maybe it's, I can see that people doubt my capacity to be here. I don't feel comfortable that they think I'm a diversity hire. This person I did have a slightly easier path and I feel like I have to work harder.

So there there are, there are some, maybe it's not even that it's different to imposter syndrome, but we really could nut that out.

[00:24:48] Bronwyn: And I think the imposter syndrome, the original research was 1980s, I think maybe, so it was the seventies. So I'm not sure if in the mainstream like it is now, we necessarily had some of the language that maybe we feel comfortable with now. For example, the word microaggressions. I'm not sure if that was used widely back when this original research was happening. So it might have been labeled as imposter syndrome or phenomenon early on for people from minoritized populations, but now they may be able to say, actually I'm experiencing microaggressions from colleagues. It makes sense that I experience these feelings and that I'm thinking this way.

[00:25:30] Marie: How we would use this in our context is if someone, if you're working with a client and they say, I feel like an imposter, use some of these words that we've been talking about and try and be curious and unpack that. What do you mean by that? How does that show up for you? Like, don't just let it fly by, because underneath that could be some of their core schemas. It could be that defectiveness, it could be that perfectionism. There could be, I'm just looking at the highlight reels of other people's achievements. So that in itself could be a whole piece. of work. You can explore intersectionality, you can explore a whole range of different things if it's for yourself as a early career or anywhere in your career. I don't think it actually, it doesn't, it hasn't gone away for me. I've just got a, a different understanding.

[00:26:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, I definitely, um, I mean maybe to bring a different aspect to this, I was going to ask you next about how do we distinguish healthy self-doubt to paralyzing self-doubt? Because my understanding has evolved to, like, it does serve some protective function for me. I don't feel good if I am overconfident. And that comes from, I remember reading research really early in my career that overconfident people who are too overconfident, miss things. And I don't wanna become that clinician that I, this, this fictionalized clinician that I hear about in their later career who they have a patient and then the patient is like, I didn't feel heard or seen because the clinician, even though they're really experienced, wasn't really seeing them or their experiences. And I don't wanna become that, so I don't wanna get too overconfident. So I do feel like self-doubt, feelings help me to an extent.

[00:27:20] Marie: But that's all feelings. They are signposts for what's important. They're giving us information. Anxiety can be functional. We would... if it didn't exist, we wouldn't survive it as a species there is at some point in history, all of these things helped us evolve. Looking at situationally, how much is it impacting you?

Because and I, I was reading it in the book. Uh, think, again, I love Adam Grant's writing. If you're an early, well anywhere in your career. if Adam Grant's stuff he's an organizational psychologist. He's brilliant. And in his book, think Again, he talks about cultivating this skill of being open to being wrong and how that in itself is a skill, and being able to learn new things and accept that you don't know it all.

And that can take the pressure off. Because having some of this imposter syndrome might mean that you are open to questioning things, you're curious about a different perspective. You might be open to reading a bit more. You might not get to the point you're like, you know what? I know everything about adolescent mental health because I have done this, this, and this. I've done my 10 years. I'm an expert. That keeps evolving. It keeps changing. New things will come. So he's reframed it as maybe it's not a bad thing, and maybe some people would benefit from having a sprinkle of this in their life.

[00:28:52] Bronwyn: Again, such a really good reframing to bring up. I really love that, because I wouldn't want that to go away for me. I think it's really important in therapy work with clients to be open to the possibility that you are wrong, because it's important for clients to be able to discuss that with you. And it's so important to be able to learn from our clients. I don't wanna be in the position where I think that I'm the expert and know everything, because that'll stop me learning from my clients and they're great teachers as well. Um, so yeah, it's really healthy in that respect.

[00:29:26] Marie: Well done. But in therapy, maybe it's a difference in different modalities, but if you're very sort of psychometric testing diagnosis, you know, structured intervention, you might not work this way. I would work now from more of a position where even if I was an expert, like, sometimes people will say, well, well, what do you know? And I feel like turning around and saying, well, I have this degree, this degree I've done 10,000 hours of whatever. But now I... I know because that was the dream even, you know, originally it was get into this uni and then I did a master's at Melbourne and I did like all of these things to get the credentials that nobody gives a crap about. But I wouldn't, now that wouldn't even evoke a response for me. I could actually say, tell me why that's important to you? And so that has nothing to do with proving anything. I could use that now as a point of curiosity and not get defensive about it.

So I'm learning now that I don't need to be an expert in the content. I can refine and work on the relationship. And if you build that, build that in friendships, build that within a network, you get a little bit of grace, if you make a mistake, you can repair. Conflict is normal.

And so in a counseling room now, if someone poked me and they're like, you know, I had someone recently bring to me some traits of OCD, so really intrusive, very disturbing thoughts. And we're unpacking and I was like, I actually don't know a lot about that. I could sit there and quickly Google it and Chat GPT it or something. But I was like, I don't work a lot with OCD. Knowing you have a history, these are some contributions to I think, increased stress, with might be increasing this. If you want more support around it, I have to refer you out. Because I see too many people early in their career, and I see their Psychology Today profile and they've ticked all these things I'm like, I'm sorry, but you cannot specialize in 20 things. You can't be proficient as a graduate, in all of these different modalities and so they're in for a bit of a shock as well.

[00:31:44] Bronwyn: Yeah. You can't be everything to everyone. That is such an excellent point, Marie. I loved hearing you raise that point. I think it's so crucial to raise as something that's changed over time potentially. Like did you have that same self-assurance say five, six years ago?

[00:32:00] Marie: No, but that was the system. And so where I found this was another, ask at a, it's having me, my brain explode with ideas moving into my first therapy role. No, I, I would not have had that capacity. I felt like I really had to have the answers and I have to have the right tool and had to be the most robust up to date thing, and I was doing all the training I could through, I dunno, the mental health. What was it? Um, it was like a the Academy Mental Health Academy, I was going to meetings at Orygen, like their training Headspace. I was everything, mental health. First aid. I had to know it. I had to prove it. I had to be able to tell a parent, the statistics are one in four young people at this age, and, and I had no idea.

But our teaching, our learning didn't support how to integrate all of that knowledge into the room with someone going through my family therapy Masters, different experience because it was all about how you show up in the room. You had live reflective practice, you got the feedback supportively constructively. You got to re-watch it. You got to improve for next time.

So I didn't come out of that feeling like I'm an imposter. I feel like I've done a good enough job and I have the systems in place to bring a difficult client to supervision to know that if I have this reaction, that it's a me thing, and I talk about that in therapy. So when we go back to that earlier point of maybe there's something in how we are taught in the environment, I look at that experience and I think that was a distinct difference in how we're supported.

Sometimes I still, I mean, recently I had a family of six walking in the room and I was like, oh my God, what am I gonna do? But I had to remember, like, I, I don't have to solve 22 years of their problems in a 90 minute session. I've got the skills to start this conversation and we take it from there.

[00:34:08] Bronwyn: I do think that that awareness, yeah, comes with practice and experience and self-reflection of what I can do, and what I can't do, and being comfortable in being good enough with what you can do rather than feeling inadequate or that you'd need to do more or that you're gonna get found out. Yeah, I think that's quite a skill. I'm glad that you've had that journey.

It, it does resonate with me as well. I think early on in my career, if a client, say the example you gave before of, let's say a client is like, what do you know? I would have a redness in my face and I would notice the feelings bubble up in me. And I wouldn't necessarily respond defensively, but I might've been curt, I might've been a bit short. Whereas now, like you said, I'm able to stop, notice what's happening, have the curiosity. And for me, I'm thinking this is an opportunity to learn more about where this client is coming from. And I'm really interested 'cause I'm like, this is like about them. I feel assured in me. I don't think this is about me. I think this is something that's going on with them.

[00:35:19] Marie: Yeah. So as a kind of wrapping up, um, what would you recommend people do. Yeah, if they're listening to this and they, they're thinking they can't do their job or they can't contribute, what are some words of wisdom that maybe you wish you knew when you were first starting? And anything practical that could be put in place.

[00:35:45] Bronwyn: I reckon in terms of practical things, it would be noticing where you are at, so really being honest with yourself. What is happening? I guess I wish, earlier in my career, I had been honest with myself about the overcompensation and I thought this is what I need to do to be at the baseline level of being acceptable in this workplace. And maybe that wasn't the case and it would've been beneficial for me to have shared those fears or thoughts with a therapist or a supervisor to be able to get that external perspective. But I didn't. I just did those things in secret and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna learn all of this.

So I'd recommend talking about it. I think that can be hugely helpful. And then if you need a period of going through your own therapy to unpack this, I'd really recommend doing that because these thoughts and feelings, they're gonna catch up with you later. Particularly, if they're ingrained schemas, they're gonna pop up again and again, and again and again, and you're gonna be triggered in the same way. And if you don't have that awareness, then it's not gonna change, and it may impact your work in different ways.

So that would be the practical advice. I think the words of wisdom is that you don't have to know everything. You're a student and you're learning, and we're all students. We're still all learning. I really love beginner mindset. It's this concept I learned when I did yoga a lot, and it is approaching each yoga session with beginner mindset. What, what is this? I'm gonna be curious. I'm gonna allow myself to be a beginner at this and notice what happens. And I think applying that to therapy is really helpful.

And yeah, to be kind and gentle with yourself because sometimes other people are not, and so we need to apply that kindness and gentleness to ourselves even more. It's even more important to be kind and gentle to ourselves rather than punish ourselves.

Okay, back at you. Practical things, words of wisdom.

[00:37:41] Marie: The least positive one, I guess, is adjust your expectations. So you might've worked really hard at school, at uni to get to where you are and sometimes for clients, they don't give a fuck. They do not care what grade you go, what uni you went to, especially in sort of community health or in um, case management roles or even sometimes hospital roles. They are coming to you at their most distressed and sometimes the help they want you just can't give, and they don't care. And it's not about you, that's the system.

So there might be about adjusting your expectations about what you think you can provide, how much you think you can help, how quickly you can do that 'cause some of it's just not possible. And so that would be the, negative, um, the most negative thing is you might have to adjust your expectations.

But be okay to be new at something. Like I started last, not last week, this week, so depending when this comes out, it'll have been a while, a beginner's painting class. And I was like far out as an adult, I'm trying to learn something new. I haven't really done any formal art classes since high school. I've done the odd life drawing. I'm gonna suck, I'm gonna do this. And actually, I was the youngest person there by far, and that was actually really nice that there were all these women, mostly retired, and me who were like, I used to love doing this in school and I gave it up, or I couldn't make a career out of it. Or, I've always wanted to be creative and so I'm going to learn how. And so being okay to not know, not to be an expert. If I paint something, of course I'm gonna feel like I'm an imposter. Like I think I remember I showed you one of my first paintings.

[00:39:35] Bronwyn: I thought it was great.

[00:39:36] Marie: Yeah, I think it's, it's behind me. Um, you could probably say it as we talk. But anytime I try a new skill, like when I did EMDR and had to practice on my first person in a role play and on the first client, and I know for some people that can feel really hard because it's a very distinctly different way of running a therapy session, doing the bilateral stimulation, you know, that- the finger movement, that they get terrified because it's like, well, I should be perfect at this because they know what good looks like. Maybe they will see, they saw it and they say, well, I'm not that so I must be shit. And there's a whole bunch in the middle.

So be okay with not knowing, with learning, with starting out. Maybe sit with the feeling long enough to figure out what's underneath it. Is it inadequate? Is it just nervous, anxious, intimidated?

And then the self-compassion. So maybe try the Kristin Neff self-compassion quiz. If you Google it, it's very good, but that might give you a bit of a idea of how harsh you're being on yourself, because your inner voice is probably so much meaner and harsher than what you would say to someone you loved out loud.

[00:40:50] Bronwyn: 100%. That sounds like it's a good place to wrap up. I really enjoyed this conversation, this revisit to imposter syndrome with you.

[00:41:00] Marie: Same, and we'll put links in our respective things to some of those resources, the old episodes. And I'd love to hear from folk because this is a topic that comes up a lot with my mentees and when I've had students on placement or whenever I connect with sort of people really starting out. And I love to hear what people are kind of thinking about this take on it.

[00:41:24] Bronwyn: Yes, absolutely. So if you found this episode helpful, do share it with other people as well With podcasts. The best way to get it out there is to put it in somebody's ears, send them a link. And it also helps people find the podcast if you leave a rating or review, so do do that.

Thanks for listening. I've been Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.