Building sustainable boundaries for work-life balance (with Jazmin Pursell)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we're talking about how to stay well when you're a parent and you work in mental health.

We all know that juggling the demands of a mental health role while managing outside life isn't easy. Many mental health workers find that they're always 'on' because they're attending emotionally to clients at work, and then they're attending to other stuff outside of that. And for some people that's children, a family, and friends outside of work.

In this episode, we're going to unpack how to stay well when it feels like everyone is wanting a piece of you. Here to help us out with this topic is our wonderful guest, Jazmin Pursell. Hi Jazmin.

[00:00:48] Jazmin: Hi Bronwyn, lovely to meet you.

[00:00:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, so lovely to meet you, Jazmin. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's gonna be a pleasure to record this with you. I'm so glad that you're here. Can you please tell listeners who you are and I'll also ask you what your non-work passion is.

[00:01:02] Jazmin: Perfect. I love this question. So I'm Jazmin. I'm a social worker. I'm based in Melbourne. I've worked in a few different roles, including government, so I've worked in public housing, child protection, schools, including mental health, disability, as well as in various leadership roles as well. And currently I have my own business, which is originally just my name, so Jazmin Pursell Consulting. Uh, that's a working title. I always say eventually it will be something a little bit more impactful, but in my business I provide a lot of, um. Individual and group supervision and reflective practice for, for teams. And what I am focusing on at the mument is bringing out a membership, which is going to be supporting, helping professionals around increasing their, the balance in their life, so their work life balance, and actually focusing on themselves and who they are outside of their profession. So watch this space for, for that.

Outside of work, I absolutely love health and fitness. I'm obsessed with Zumba and going to the gym, and I try to stay active as much as I can. I find that that, um, really does help me to actually have something to look forward to outside of my professional role as well.

As a busy mum of two. I also love cooking, so I love cooking, baking, anything I can, any new recipes. So essentially my interests revolve around exercise and eating, as most people I'm sure can relate.

[00:02:43] Bronwyn: It is a good combination, and I just got a flashback of a memory with the Zumba. I tried Zumba maybe about 15 years ago and I was like, okay, I'll try it twice, because the first time I went I was about three seconds behind everybody else. It was nuts. I was like, I dunno what I'm doing. So I did try it again. Still just as bad and I was like, it was not for me.

[00:03:04] Jazmin: No, I was like that initially as well, and then I just kept doing it and I, and I, maybe it's the perfectionist in me just wanting to actually just... not be good at something and actually just try and get better and work at it. And I'm, I'm still definitely not, not a pro, but with practice I can mostly keep up, but sometimes I do start on the wrong leg, so I can relate.

[00:03:24] Bronwyn: I admire your determination. Yes, it does, it does seem really fun. So that's really cool. And on the self named business, I did the same thing. So my business was called Bronwyn Milkins in Psychology, and I was like, it's a placeholder for later, and I just couldn't come up with anything that wasn't corny or already used, and it was just like, it was so hard.

[00:03:42] Jazmin: I know that's the problem, so, but at least no one's gonna then forget your name if it's your business and it's, that's your brand. So I feel like it's at least memorable and my name is not super common.

[00:03:52] Bronwyn: Yes, exactly, exactly. Well, thanks for coming on, Jazmin. And yes, you came on with this idea that we were going to talk about work life boundaries, and it's something that you told me that you were quite passionate about. And so I'm wondering like, how did you come to be interested in this space?

[00:04:08] Jazmin: So early on in my career, and I know most of your audiences sort of early, you know, early career mental workers, so I'm sure that they, they can relate. But in my earlier roles as a social worker, and even when I was working in the field prior to becoming a qualified social worker, I, I really struggled with work life boundaries myself.

So I- initially I was the type to, you know, stay back late to really be in that sort of, I guess, people pleasing cycle that a lot of early career practitioners are, because I felt so grateful to be in the role that I was in. And at the time I thought my dream, well, I, I thought my dream role at the time was in child protection, so when I secured that role, I felt incredibly sort of grateful to have it. So I was often saying yes to things, so yes to additional work when really it, it was impacting, I guess, my life outside of work.

And there was- and at the time I had, my daughter was quite young, so she was still in childcare. So there was just that constant struggle and juggle of trying to leave work on time, then managing to pick her up from childcare and just that constant pressure that I was under to be juggling my, you know, my professional... wearing both hats. So wearing the professional hat and then being a mum, and then being, um, being a wife as well.

So I felt that I didn't do an amazing job of having a work life balance and having boundaries in place at the time. So through a lot of work that I've done that I found that I was able to, to actually kind of shift that for myself and actually have, and I've found that you can have a balance and you don't have to sacrifice one for the other.

[00:06:02] Bronwyn: Yeah. And what did you notice about yourself? Like how did you pin it on work life balance? I'm wondering if you noticed any changes in yourself from taking on additional work or, or there was just things that other people noticed about you even.

[00:06:15] Jazmin: Well, what I've noticed about myself, and I'm sure my, my husband would, would agree with me that I felt myself getting increasingly, increasingly. Irritable and just really small things and things that normally wouldn't have bothered me, but it was just then the pressure of then the workload and the excessive workload and, and the pressure to... and part of the pressure actually came from in the team that I was in, I was the only working parent, so everyone else was, was not juggling that additional responsibility. So I felt that I had to work that little bit harder and really try and become just someone who would lend a hand and someone who would help out others who were struggling because I didn't, I didn't wanna be seen as someone who was less dedicated to the job, because I had, I guess those caring responsibilities out of work.

So I was really conscious of that and I guess feeling a little bit 'othered' in in the team because I was the only working parent. So I think there was, there was that as well. And I was also noticing that I just wasn't taking care of my health. And that, you know, that included, like just eating, just whatever crap I could get late afternoon from the vending machine, you know, kind of that, that 4:00 PM dash to, to get a chocolate bar from the vending machine because I hadn't often taken time to actually have a decent break during the workday.

So it was a lot of those habits that I notice and then those habits just increased. So I was just doing that, I guess, more and more, and then I started to realize that, that that wasn't, you know, it wasn't good for me and it wasn't making me feel any better. In fact, it was making me feel worse.

[00:07:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, there's a lot in there. So there was a lot of changes that you were noticing, and it sounds like overall you just weren't yourself.

[00:08:04] Jazmin: Yes, that's exactly right. And I, and I started to think, well, who am I outside of my professional role? And then who am I outside of also being a mum? So then like, who am I, just as an individual? So I just started reflecting more about myself and my identity. And then if I wasn't a social worker, if I wasn't a mum, what am I, what am I interested in? So I then decided to focus on what am I actually interested in, and then that's when I sort of, I guess, decided that health and fitness is what I've always loved . And so I, decided to get back to, to that place of, you know, prioritizing myself and then I was, then I was able to be a better, more patient and calm parent, as well as a more calm practitioner.

[00:08:51] Bronwyn: Mm. Because some people might take a different path. They might say like, look, I've just got too much to juggle here. I'm a parent, I'm doing quite a demanding role, I guess as well, with child protection, it can be quite demanding. And, you know, I've got this other identity as a wife, I'm managing my relationship and I'm managing all these outside lifestyles.

Some people might be like, well, maybe I just need to give up one of those things. And, and usually it's the work. It's not like the husband or the child. Um, they don't usually go out. Um, so like, I guess what led you to being like, okay, this is the path that I'm going to go down to reclaim myself.

[00:09:26] Jazmin: Because my professional identity was also really important to me, so the impact that I was able to in, in various roles I was in, the impact I was able to make on the lives of, you know, quite vulnerable client group kept me in the field. So that was also really important to me.

But then equally important was my, my life outside of work and and I guess I'm like most people, we, we need to work to, to earn a living. But when you also do a job that you are also really passionate about and then it aligns with like your own values around helping others, then it's... it made it quite easy for me to sort of stay in, I guess, in the helping professions, but just in different roles, and that's what I would do. I wouldn't necessarily stay in a role if I, if I thought that, well, it's, it's burning me out or I'm not able to have the work-life balance that I'm really seeking in this role... Then I would look at, well, what are the other opportunities out there?

So I always, and I supervise quite a lot of students as well on placement and early career practitioners and professionals. And I'll often say to them that the, what you think going into the profession is your dream job, it may not necessarily be, and then there's nothing wrong with, you know, shifting to a different field of practice and it's about what's right for you, the time.

That was, I guess, what sustained me because I would, I would work within different roles and then that really helped as well. And once I knew what my sort of non-negotiables were with my boundaries, so like leaving on time and if my, either my children had a medical appointment or something I needed to attend to, then I, I was really seeking, I guess those opportunities where the organizations I worked for really acknowledged the importance of that life outside of work as well.

So I guess I was always, looking for the, the, that, the, the ideal work life balance if there is such a thing!

[00:11:32] Bronwyn: Yeah. You've raised something really important there in talking about, I guess, what you're noticing in your students. I just picked up on this idea, which I think is quite common, and that's the idea that we've got this, image in mind of what our dream job will be, and sometimes they're like, no, I don't wanna shift from that. It's like, I got in this to help people, and that looks like seeing 12 clients a day or however many, or it looks like being in this specific environment and maybe. We're like, oh no, we can't chop and change that.

So that just struck me to think what other kinds of challenges maybe you've seen as students or just in generally you've observed? Um, yeah. People facing when trying to maintain work-life boundaries.

[00:12:13] Jazmin: One of the things is the need to people please. So whether it's pleasing their direct supervisor or their colleagues or even their clients. And I would see time and time again, and I've definitely been guilty of it... everything I talk about, I've done it myself, so I'm certainly not in my ivory tower looking down on others, judging their practice, but definitely, the people pleasing and also wanting to be liked and wanting to be seen as a team player.

And there's definitely been times where I've seen, either colleagues or students, have an already excessive caseload and then their supervisor will say, can you take on another case? And without even thinking, without even pausing, they will just immediately agree against their sort of better. Yes! So Bronwyn. And just against their sort of better judgment. So I think that sort of need to, to always be saying yes, always be seen as being really agreeable... that's something that I've seen quite a lot of.

And I feel like we don't talk a lot about actually the assertive communication, actually... being able to have really assertive conversations with whether it's our clients or whether it's our colleagues or or managers, if we do if, if something doesn't sit comfortably with us. So it could be maybe an ethical dilemma. And I've definitely seen instances where practitioners have have gone along with something that they thought wasn't really ethical instead of actually pausing to look at, you know, is it exploring other options, potentially. So that's definitely something that I've seen quite a lot of.

[00:14:00] Bronwyn: Why do you think we do that?

[00:14:01] Jazmin: The people pleasing or the?

[00:14:03] Bronwyn: Um, the people pleasing and also I guess why we go along with things that might not fit, be aligned with our morals as well.

[00:14:11] Jazmin: Any conflict with within the workplace is so uncomfortable, and then knowing that you have to go back the very next day if you've had a conflict or even a difference of opinion sits so uncomfortably with so many people and a lot of us just avoid conflict at all costs. And we, we do this in our personal relationships, we do this in our professional relationships, and it's often just easier, and it sits more comfortably with us if we just go along with things, at least for a while.

But then when you are really consciously aware of what your values are, and especially like your ethical framework around whatever, whatever your profession may be, then things event, eventually you'll, you'll end up needing to either make a change. So whether it's having a difficult conversation with a client, you know, colleague or manager, or moving on to a different role to continue to completely avoid that difficult conversation.

And, we all like to be liked, so we really want people to like us and we want, we really want to be affirmed by those around us, that we're a team player, that we are doing our best work, that our clients love us, and it's lovely to receive that validation from others that we are doing a good job. So putting boundaries in place around, whether it's caseload or bringing up an ethical boundary with, with someone in your job, then... it it then means that we are not, maybe we are worried that we won't be seen as likable. Maybe people perceive us as difficult.

So that's something, it's definitely still does sit with me that, that need to, to be liked and wanting to, to be, to be a team player. When I think back to... at times when, thinking back to my role in, in child protection, really wanting to be, to be a team player meant that I was often taking overtime over like the weekend, even though it wasn't about that I needed that extra money for anything in particular, it was because I didn't want to be seen as someone who wouldn't take one for the team.

[00:16:26] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I guess it's, we're, we're quite highly motivated to manage how other people see us as well. Right. It's like we don't, yeah, we don't wanna be seen as not being a team player. And then quite often the settings that we work in as mental health professionals, we do have a, a lot of referrals say, or there's a lot of demand and there's usually not enough resources, so managers will say to us, oh, could you take on one more client? Um, because yeah, we just have the demand. We don't have the resources, we need you to do it. And so you can feel quite guilty and you do wanna be liked. It is, it is pretty vicious actually, when you think of it that it's so hard to break that mold, but I can totally see it.

And just on the clients as well, wanting to be liked by clients, 'cause you're right, I guess like there's something in that we might. I guess evaluate our colleagues on how well they're doing with their clients as well. So you don't wanna tell your colleague like, oh, I'm having a really tough time with five of my clients, even though that might be exactly where those clients need to be, um, because that's how they grow and change through these difficult conversations. But it might not look good, I guess, to tell your colleague that, that,

[00:17:28] Jazmin: Oh no, definitely not. And, and sometimes there's a bit of that competitiveness as well. So if you work , you know, in a team and you're work working directly with clients, and if your colleague is really well liked by all of their clients, and you are sort of acutely aware that maybe you have clients that you've been unable to establish a good rapport with, or it's taking you a bit longer than your colleague to build that rapport, then there is that competitive element in the way that you may start to, to judge yourself unfairly and, and how and, and how your colleague is doing a better job than you. There is a competitive element as well. I would say that we probably don't like to, to think about it, but it's, it's also not a nice feeling if we think that someone else is more liked than we are or someone is better at their job than we are.

[00:18:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, and it can be quite frightening as well. Like I know, and I've heard of stories of early career practitioners and maybe their retention isn't. Where other colleagues are, and it's not necessarily because of their own personal skills, but because of the client population that they're seeing. Or maybe they've got 10 clients who are really slow to warm up and they need that extra trust and safety, and that takes them 10 sessions. Um, but in the meantime, they're being judged by the manager for not retaining or having as much progress with these clients. And that can feel really frightening. It's like, am I gonna lose my job?

[00:18:46] Jazmin: Absolutely.

[00:18:48] Bronwyn: So I guess like, I guess why, why I'm showing that is 'cause yeah, we're, we're quite motivated to do all the things that you're saying, like to people please to, to manage how other people see us, to take on more clients, to just be a team player, so I'm wondering how did you get out of all of that?

[00:19:03] Jazmin: Such a good question, Bronwyn. I feel like, I mean, I'm a work in progress. I'm sure a lot of us are. So- and, and I never aim to do, to do something a hundred percent of the time. So if I can do something, say 80% of the time, then that's, you know, then, then that's a pretty good, a pretty good goal.

What I've found for me is, I've done a lot of reflection on my values, and then the more I looked at the people pleasing, in particular, the more I thought that that's not one of my core values at all, and how other people see me didn't even come close to like my top 10 values, for example. I would definitely encourage anyone who's not aware of like what their values are to to, to do a deeper dive into that. And when you're aware of that, then you'll be able to put some boundaries in place, which also includes saying no instead of always just saying yes. So I feel that that that's a huge one.

For me, actually practicing to set the boundaries was something that I learnt how to do just, I guess, just through practicing. So there was definitely a time where, and I've, I mentioned it a bit earlier in our conversation, but when I was working in, in one of my frontline roles, I had a very young daughter who was in childcare. So that the, the juggle of being able to pick her up before childcare closed was sort of a constant worry in my head. Like it was the case with me, for some people, they may have a particular situation that's occurred that's made them actually think, well, how I am acting now in this particular workplace and not having these boundaries and saying yes all the time.

There may be one particular incident that occurred that changed everything for you. So for me it was when I was almost late to pick up my daughter from childcare and I was always the last parent there without fail. And I was never actually late, but there was one day when I was arriving in the car park about two minutes before they closed. And then the pressure I, I felt, and the anxiety I felt the whole drive there every time I got stuck behind, you know, yet another set of, you know, red traffic lights or there was, you know, yet another truck in front of me driving that little bit too slow... it was that scenario that actually made me think, well, this is not sustainable and this level of pressure every single day, you know, five days a week, for years I was doing that, I thought that this is actually not sustainable.

So for me it was that one particular incident that actually made me quite determined and motivated to have a conversation with my manager around sort of my finishing times, and I was able to negotiate, uh, flexible work arrangement to be able to manage my workload, my professional workload, and also my life outside of work.

So having the conversations, whether it's with our families, if we need extra support at home, or whether we need extra support in the workplace to be able to manage everything, I would always just encourage people just to have these conversations. And often you'll find that people can be more receptive than you give them credit for, and they just don't know how much you are struggling to that constant juggle of of the, the work and the life, and often there is no balance. We speak of a work-life balance, but often there is no work-life balance. It could be favoring one over the other. More commonly, it favors the work over the life.

[00:22:59] Bronwyn: I'm just wondering, was that scary for you, having a conversation with your boss about times and, and organizing a flexible work arrangement? I imagine for some people that would be very frightening.

[00:23:10] Jazmin: Yes, it was really frightening. And then that, and then not, again, not wanting to feel like I was less of a team player than other people, but I just... I felt so much better and I felt lighter once I had that conversation because it was sitting so uncomfortably in like within my body and I was feeling the, the weight of what it was costing me not to have that conversation.

I think that made it, I guess, worth the conversation. And the more times you need to have conversations around the, the boundaries. And whatever boundaries look like for everyone, they're very different, but the more you have these conversations, the more confident you'll feel, and then it will eventually become second nature.

[00:23:56] Bronwyn: When I think about, you know, how you were talking about you don't wanna let you, don't you wanna be a team player? And I was thinking, well, what's the emotions underlying that? And I thought it could have been like, I don't wanna let people down. I don't wanna disappoint people. was that what it was for you? And if so, how do you manage those feelings?

[00:24:16] Jazmin: I can definitely resonate with what you said, Bronwyn around whether it's not wanting to disappoint people, and I would say it's a lot of, it is a lot to do with not wanting to disappoint people. Even when we think back to from when we are much younger, sort of as children, we are always wanting to please our families or please our caregivers, and always wanting to be told, oh, you know, you're doing such a good job. You're so clever, you're doing all the right things. Thank you for helping. So I feel like that's ingrained in us from very young when we sort of seek that external validation from others.

And then that just continues on from when we enter professional work settings, that we're still often seeking that external validation from others, whether it's our colleagues, managers, clients, anyone really. And now that I'm aware of that, then I can try and shift, like it helped me to shift my pattern of behavior because I, I was aware of where that came from. And then now I'm at the point where while it's nice to be liked, it's nice to be validated by others, but now I'm in the point in, in my life, probably, you know, the older I get is now I simply don't care as much and as long as I know that I'm always ethical in my work and that I am a good person, that not everyone needs to like me and not- I don't need to be every single person's favorite in, in a workplace or it, it's not what that's about anymore. And you could be doing the most amazing work with your clients, but there's always someone who will criticize you or think you're not doing enough, and often that's something that more sits internally with them as, as opposed to anything that you are doing in a failing on yourself. So that's really freeing. So that's what's really helped me that that mindset shift.

[00:26:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's really profound. Like I know you just summarized that in like a minute, but I bet that shift took much longer than that. And it, it really is quite a profound shift too. I guess it really speaks to your values and how they underpin everything. So it's like, you know, the value of taking care of yourself and, and your family, it sounds like, and your, and your children is much higher than the value of being liked by other people.

[00:26:35] Jazmin: Definitely. And the main thing is that now that I'm a parent, I'd rather really focus on being a role model to them. And if my daughters have ever, ever come home from school and they've said, or you know, someone said something unkind to me or someone doesn't like me. And I also like to lead by example, and if I am, if I'm putting these messages out into the universe or these vibes out into the universe that I am obsessed with everyone liking me and I have to be liked at all costs, then what kind of message am I sending them as well? So I think about that quite a lot.

And for those of your listeners who don't have children, there's always people that look up to you. You know, so it could be even your, your partner, nieces, nephews, anyone in your life that actually looks up to you. And when you put those, those different vibes out into the universe that not everyone has to like you and not everyone has to, like, validate you, then. You are kind of, you're spreading this message wider, so I feel like we should, I'm so glad we're having this, this conversation because I feel like more people need to hear it.

[00:27:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, I feel like it's really freeing as well. Like the older I get, I can really resonate with that. Something I quite often repeat to myself is the phrase, you win some and you lose some, and so that means to me that it's not like, I'm gonna be liked by everybody. It's like you win some, you lose some. And likewise, um, I'm not gonna show up 100% for other people all the time either. I'm not gonna be perfect. Other people aren't gonna be perfect and show up for me. And it's like, you just need to be flexible as well and just accept that that's the reality.

[00:28:11] Jazmin: Definitely. And we see that on social media where there could be a content created that creates what I could think is amazing content, but someone else could look at it and, and really have a problem with it. And, and I, you know, definitely, 'cause I'm quite, I'm quite out there on social media, that there's always people who are going to resonate with your content and other people who won't as well. And then that's totally okay because we're not everyone's cup of tea, really.

[00:28:36] Bronwyn: Exactly, and it's impossible to be, unless you want to be like obsessed with that. And even then, if you are absolutely 101% perfect, there's still gonna be somebody who doesn't like you.

[00:28:46] Jazmin: I know, but how exhausting would that be?

[00:28:48] Bronwyn: Yeah. So it's much better, as you say, to focus on our values and work to release that a little bit.

[00:28:54] Jazmin: Absolutely. Take some of the pressure off, off yourself. Yes.

[00:28:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, I just wanted to ask you, 'cause I always ask social workers this as well, because I feel like in social work there is slightly more of like this savior complex than there is in psychology. I still feel like it's in psychology, but I feel like with, um, social work's increased focus on social justice, I do feel like there's more of a sacrificial component there for you guys. And I just wondered if you could speak to that and like how you, it was, was that a factor for you? Is that something that's changed for you?

[00:29:24] Jazmin: Definitely the savior complex and I, I love the way you've articulated that.

[00:29:29] Bronwyn: It's such a psych way of framing it.

[00:29:30] Jazmin: Well... For, for myself and for a lot of the social workers that I've either supervised or worked alongside there, there's always something that draws us to the profession. So often it's our own lived experience of adversity in, in some way. So sometimes we are trying to find... we're trying to find maybe an answer to an unanswered question that we have in our own life, maybe from childhood or sort of earlier adulthood. So I guess there's that part of, there's something that draws us to the profession and often it's that need to then help others because maybe we've seen that there was an opportunity, some point in, in our history in which someone could have supported us better. So I feel like that that's a key part of it as well.

And there is the... I did hear someone say once, or I think there was social worker, that they were saying that we should be so effective at capacity building our clients that we should be doing ourselves out of a job. And I wish more people actually said that because so often in, not just in social work, but I feel like it's particularly the case in social work in which our clients can often be so reliant on the support that we provide them that they don't- that sometimes we as professionals can't envision a time when they wouldn't need the support.

And then that's also such a responsibility to be, I guess, involved in someone's life for often extended periods of time with no, no specific start and end date. And that's like such a lot of pressure. And there's always going to be someone who, you could be involved with supporting someone for a decade, but there's always going to be clients who are... for whatever their own unique circumstances are that are still stuck in that same cycle and then they're not able to, despite your best interventions to sort of get out of that, that cycle.

And for myself, that I've needed to learn how to be okay with that. You can't, it's not my role as a social worker to just fix everyone's concerns or everyone's issues that my role really should be to capacity build them, to show them some other alternatives, to support them with accessing resources that they really kind of urgently need to then hopefully be able to make some changes in their own circumstance.

[00:32:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. So it really sounds like you've developed this quite healthy mindset. I would say it's quite healthy because it enables you to be able to set boundaries with yourself and in your work, and think about things in a way that enables you to live the life that you wanna live. So that's why I'm thinking it's a healthy mindset.

And I completely agree that I, I feel like with clients, we need to also build their capacity and empower them to believe in themselves. So that self-efficacy is how I'd frame it. Um, and it's like. Yeah, I want you to think that you can be effective in your own life.

[00:32:33] Jazmin: Yeah, it's really empowering for, for the clients when they realize that someone else believes in them, so that we as professionals believe in their capacity to be able to make these really impactful changes in their own lives.

[00:32:47] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And it, I think it goes with like for me, I see, yeah, lots of people who have mental health challenges and my view is that mental health challenges don't have to be forever. It's like they are recoverable for many people and people can and do get better and I see it all the time. And so that comes through in my work too 'cause I'm like, okay, we can, we can do something here. Like it is not hopeless. I always try and instill hope.

 And for some people who have chronic and severe mental health conditions, it is, it is chronic and severe. Um, but other people there, there is lots of room for, for growth and change.

[00:33:19] Jazmin: Definitely, and there's a quote, I dunno where I heard it from, but it's, hope dies last. And I always really loved that and I dunno who said it to quote them, but it's, it's so impactful, isn't it?

[00:33:29] Bronwyn: Yes, 100%. I just wanted to change track Jazmin to this idea that mental health workers, they can have a lot of unpaid work outside of work and that's when friends or families, I guess, draw on them for therapeutic advice or I guess like just normal relationships involve emotional labor as well. And I just wondered like, is that something you've thought about, you managed, you've supervised people on, and how might you approach it?

[00:33:57] Jazmin: This is a huge one. And outside of work, I really like to just be known as like a wife, a mum, a, a sister, a friend. And I don't necessarily want to be known as, you know, the social worker or the, the mental health professional. So having people around me who see me as myself and just as Jazmin and not as my professional label is so important. So I love to have a mixture of friends and connections who are both working in a similar industry, but also completely out of the industry so I can also just be myself.

There was actually a TED Talk I watched recently and it was talking about this advice monster and that we all have this Advice Monster, particularly for us in the me- mental health space in which we tend to go into helper mode, even in our personal life, if a friend comes to us or a family member comes with a particular issue, then this Advice Monster that we all have just wants to solve everyone's problems and help. So since being aware of this Advice Monster, and I actually created a visual of the Advice Monster, so I can actually picture what mine looks like.

[00:35:20] Bronwyn: What does yours look like?

[00:35:21] Jazmin: Ah, so mine is pink. It's got like super crazy hair, crazy teeth, and is wearing Nike sneakers. I love Nike, so mine had to have Nike. I should actually, I should send it to you, Bronwyn,

[00:35:34] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'm interested. With the advice Monster, is it like, is it well intentioned, is it, or is it like a main figure? Is it like quite critical?

[00:35:43] Jazmin: Well, mine is helpful, perhaps too helpful. So the way this TED Talk, and I'll have to find the link and, and send it to you, but the, I guess the way that this, and I can't remember who said it, but the, the Advice Monster is either wanting to you solve someone's problem, so come from that, um, that helping perspective, but there's another component to it is that I want to just, kind of, show you how to do something. I wanna like do things for you. So there's part of the Advice Monster, which is kind of disempowering.

 If you've ever had that experience, Bronwyn, I'm sure that your listeners would've had as well, when, if someone's sharing something about, say if it's a negative experience in a retail shop, or like a really rude sales attendant, instead of just sort of sitting with them and acknowledging that, that, that, that sounded really difficult, that situation we'll often leap into saying, oh yeah, that happened to me and I-

[00:36:41] Bronwyn: Me too!

[00:36:42] Jazmin: Oh yeah, totally. And then you launch into your story. That's kind of what my understanding of then the Advice Monster is that it's like trying to show the other person what you know, like how much you know about a topic. So in my, it's not always necessarily from that kind of helping perspective, but it could be like, I'm kind of like the expert as well. And it can come across as, especially for us working in this sector, it can come across if we are just giving unsolicited advice in our sort of personal life that it can come across that we are positioning ourselves as that that expert and our advice was just kind of going into overdrive, but we're not actually listening to the person. We're not seeing if they actually are seeking our advice or they're just sort of seeking, you know, validation or they're just want to, to vent but not have any solutions provided.

So that's something I've had to, and I'm still, I'm still very much working on this as well is to, if someone, and this is outside of work, if someone brings a particular issue to me, unless they're actually asking for my advice, then I'm trying to delay giving it. This video on the Advice Monster is asking you to stop and then reflect and ask them some clarifying questions instead of just launching into the advice that you think that they want or that you think you would find the most helpful. So it's about working out or what's going to be actually more impactful to the person.

So I think for me being, um, in this sort of helping professional space is that my advice monster, she is rampant and she does go into overdrive if I don't tame her. So I'm really trying to work on that. So with the professionals that I supervise, they often speak of something similar in which they're the problem solver in their friendship group. If there's a dispute between their friends, they're always the one who's intervening and playing mediator. Then that comes with an emotional toll on them because they're helping resolve complex problems in their work, and then they're doing the same outside of work. They feel they never have a break. They're always just on.

[00:39:01] Bronwyn: It is so true. I bet, like, I bet many listeners and I, I would say like almost anybody who works in the mental health space, like I literally remember I have a vivid memory when I was like five and I was like the playground mediator, and anytime any kid had like a fight when I'm five years old, it's like they'd come over to me just automatically. I didn't give myself the role, they gave me the role, but I fulfilled the role and it's just kind of been like that my whole life. And yeah, I reckon other people would be able to relate strongly to that. So it's so hard when you just have this very practiced role throughout your whole life to be like, hmm, is this role actually helping or harming me now?

[00:39:34] Jazmin: Yes, and we're used to being really helpful and resourceful in our professional roles, and then to think of the discomfort in our personal life, if someone that we really care about comes to us with a problem and that we have no idea of the solution or no idea of what support to offer them, then think of how uncomfortable that would be for people like us who are used to having these solutions to really complex problems.

[00:40:00] Bronwyn: I love being helpful. If you asked me a value that I had, I would be like, I love being helpful.

[00:40:05] Jazmin: Yeah, definitely. And I know I've been contacted on on weekends, but I remember once my grandma called me on a Saturday night at the time I worked in child protection and she was calling me to say she saw a a little child unattended near the road and was then making this report to me, even though this was a totally the opposite end of town, and I said, oh, thanks for telling me grandma. Um, I can't support with this. If you're really worried, it's triple zero that you'll call... found there's so many times they're being dragged into things and everyone's so well intentioned that I need to be really gentle in how I communicate that I can't help with that, but having the boundaries in place and saying, well, I'm not, I'm not able to, to support with that and, and we can't, we have to be okay that we can't sort of solve everyone's problems as well.

[00:40:54] Bronwyn: Mm. It's amazing even you sharing that, how simple phrases can really help with those boundaries. It's like, like grandma, like this is the place to call, or, I can't support with that right now. And it's like only a few sentences can make such a huge difference.

[00:41:08] Jazmin: Definitely it's all in the the delivery. And I feel like if we deliver things gently, then people are gonna be more receptive than if we said, oh, don't bother me, that's nothing to do with me, it's a weekend, I don't work on weekends and just, and close the call. Not that anyone would ever speak to their grandma like that, surely, but uh, you know, just in general, like, I feel like the, the delivery of the messaging is really important when we're talking about boundaries, like how are we actually communicating it to others? So it's, it's perceived more favorably.

[00:41:39] Bronwyn: Yeah. Well, I agree. I think it's also very empathetic towards the other person's perspective because one reason why they're calling on us is because they think highly of us. They think we have the expertise to help with this. They're like, Jazmin has the expertise in social work. She's a child protection worker. She would know what to do here. So they're actually thinking like really well of you. So you don't wanna then beat them down by being like, you idiot, how dare you call on me?

[00:42:01] Jazmin: I know totally. And, and, and, and because of the, yeah, the areas I've worked in, I've, I've had people call me with advice on like, family law court matters, and I'm like, yeah, you actually need a lawyer. Thank you for thinking that I have such well-rounded knowledge.

[00:42:15] Bronwyn: I just wanted to ask if there's any practical strategies that you might share with supervisees or colleagues around sustainable time management and emotional boundaries?

[00:42:24] Jazmin: Yes. It's one of my favorite questions. So Bronwyn, I'm a huge fan of the humble to-do list. So, what I like to do and thinking first of what I do in my, in my professional life is I'll have my to-do list of not too many tasks, but I always have like, stretch tasks. So there'll be, say, three or four non-negotiable tasks that I must do in that particular day. But then if I am, you know, particularly organized, or if I may have had a few client cancellations or meetings have been shifted, then I'll if time permits then I would do those extra tasks.

One of the things that I used to do is have a to-do list that was like an A4 page long, and actually think that I was able to complete that realistically in a standard business day,

[00:43:19] Bronwyn: Oh, you poor thing. I feel bad for you.

[00:43:21] Jazmin: So that was kind of like, you know, kind of like my downfall at that time. So, so what I've done is really, I guess, quartered or maybe even less than quarters, I quartered the size of my to-do list and actually making it manageable, but then having about one or two kind of stretch tasks to only if I have the time. So relieving some of that pressure in myself has been really helpful.

And also with the supervisees, I always try to instill in them, if you're really not sure about something, don't leave it to the end of the day to then ask, because at the end of the day, everyone is busy, they're frazzled and people are thinking about, and they, as they should be, their life outside of work and what they're doing after work. So I always encourage them, and I've had to work on this myself as well, to, if you know that you need help with something, then seek that help, ideally in the first half of the day, ideally before lunchtime, when people are still at their perky best.

So seeking, so seeking help can be pretty difficult, especially a student on placement that is still very new to the profession to actually ask for help. But I always encourage them to ask for help and ask for it as early as possible so then you're not sitting with not knowing for them the whole day. And then that just builds up that sort of pressure as well. So anything that I can do or support others with strategies to sort of reduce some of that pressure is something that I would recommend.

[00:44:54] Bronwyn: I totally vouch for the asking for help. Like, I'm so glad you said that because I love asking for help. But I can totally understand, like having been an early career psych myself, on placement, you don't wanna appear incompetent. That's why people don't ask for help. 'cause they're like, oh, they're gonna think I don't know anything. Um, so you wanna have this like, perfect balance between not knowing something, but also knowing stuff. And I found that the way to get around that was just to show my supervisor that I thought of alternatives. So it's like I'm having this ethical dilemma. I have thought that this is the ethical dilemma. I thought about these possibilities, but I'm not sure and I wanna check that out with you. So I found that that was actually a pretty good way of getting around it. And now I love asking for help.

[00:45:32] Jazmin: Oh, I'm glad that you mentioned that, Bronwyn, because even going into a meeting, like a team meeting, there's a strategy that I always like to use is going in with a problem but then you have a solution or even a proposed solution? Because how often do we hear in workplaces or team meetings where people are venting about issues with funding or client issues or just issues with the system or how, you know, how things should be done differently. But then rarely do they actually come with a proposed solution. So there's always going to be so many problems but then even if you suggest one solution, it shows that you're you are actually demonstrating the leadership qualities. You are gonna be showing that you are a critical, you're a critical thinker, you're a planner, and then you are being the ultimate team player because you're trying to actually think of a potential solution that's actually going to help others.

[00:46:26] Bronwyn: Mm. I couldn't say better myself. I totally agree. Were there any other practical strategies that you wanted to let listeners know about?

[00:46:33] Jazmin: Reflective practice is, is a huge one. Reflective practice should never replace the one-on-one supervision. I feel it's really helpful and I deliver reflective practice sessions myself, but actually having a reflective practice, whether it's ideally a reflective practice group in addition to your one-on-one supervision is something that I myself have got so much benefit out of, and the reflective practice isn't just about bringing problems and just talking about the administrative part of the work. I feel like one-on-one supervision, especially when it's delivered by your line manager in the workplace, it's often very administrative in focus and it's very much your, you know, your case discussion and updating your line manager around that.

But having a separate space through a group reflective practice enables you to actually look at broader, broader issues such as boundaries. And I did a reflective practice session just a few weeks ago around boundaries and using specific examples on boundaries, but being mindful to look at bigger, like the bigger picture and not just one individual case in particular. So having that reflective space is also great to, to slow down the pace of our really fast paced, stressed environment. So having a slower pace that is, there's less pressure being in a reflective practice group rather than one-on-one supervision.

 Anyone who's listening, if your workplace doesn't offer reflective practice, speak to your management around, is that something they could implement and you could even offer to, to run that.

[00:48:19] Bronwyn: Yes, I totally agree. And it's like that, that's, that's not offered enough. And I wish it was, but it was. As you say, that's how it was to me as well. We'd have like air quote supervision meetings, but they were really like team admin updates, not, not supervision when I was employed in a particular workplace. And so you never get this reflective space, which is so valuable.

[00:48:39] Jazmin: That's so true.

[00:48:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. Jazmin, it has been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. I feel like we could keep on talking forever. There's a lot of wisdom that you've shared with us. What do you hope that listeners will take away from our conversation today?

[00:48:52] Jazmin: To not put so much pressure on themselves to be perfect and to engage in that sort of people pleasing mindset and just be kind and gentle on yourself. And that also acknowledge that it's totally okay to want to have an amazing, fulfilling life outside of work, and that we all have our out of work identities as well that also need nurturing. Although our clients are at the absolute cornerstone of what we do, and they're why we came into these helping professions, but the, but our professional title sort of doesn't define us and shouldn't define us because we do need that, that balance that's so important.

[00:49:36] Bronwyn: Love it. Preach. I wish everybody could, could hear what you've just said. I think it, it perfectly encapsulates everything and it really speaks to, I think, early career practitioners who do put a lot of pressure on themselves, who do try and be perfect and yeah, need to remember some of what you've just said.

So thank you so much, Jazmin. If listeners wanna learn more about you, or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:49:57] Jazmin: So, uh, the main place I sort of hang out online is Instagram. So it's just my first and surname is my Instagram. Again, I'm not super original. They can also connect with me on LinkedIn and Facebook. And then my website is just jazmin.Purcell.com.au. So they're the main ways, and because it's all of my business is just my name, I'm pretty easy to find.

[00:50:24] Bronwyn: So you offer supervision, reflective practice groups, and then you're offering a membership thing.

[00:50:29] Jazmin: Yes, I do. So one-on-one supervision and group supervision as well as team reflective practice. And depending on when this episode airs, I may have already launched my membership, but I'm in the process of launching a membership for helping professionals, and it's gonna be focusing all around the, the balance, the boundaries, and our life outside of work. So watch this space. So hopefully there'll be a few of your listeners that would want to connect and it'd be great to hear from, from them.

[00:51:00] Bronwyn: Absolutely, and I'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes for listeners to find. Thank you again, Jazmin, for coming on.

[00:51:07] Jazmin: Thanks so much for having me, Bronwyn.

[00:51:09] Bronwyn: Listeners, if you found this episode helpful, please do consider sharing Mental Work. Put it in a colleague's ear, give them a link to the episode. It's the best way to help new listeners find out what's happening. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you hit subscribe in your podcast listening app, and that way you won't miss any future episodes. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good one, and catch you next time. Bye.