Finding Paradise at the Panama Canal: One Woman's Leap into a New Life

0:00 Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with Curveball, if you believe you can achieve. Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate and inspire. Today, I am joined by Melissa Dornay, who moved to Panama and, you know, knows all about Panama as well as the real estate market. So we're going to be talking to her and, you know, if you know anybody who is thinking about moving to Panama, or you yourself, make sure you share this episode with as many people as possible.

0:50 So, melissa, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me and greetings from warm, sunny Panama. Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself? Sure, I'm an American. I've been living in Panama since 2012. So I'm in my 13th year here. I live in what I think is one of the most amazing places on earth. I'm located at the mouth of the Panama Canal, so overlooking the Pacific Ocean. So when you look out my window, you see blue ocean, green jungle, you see some islands, you see the ships lining up to get through the canal and you see all the different birds from the jungle flying through my window.

1:36 So it's an amazing place. I have been so happy here and I can't see myself ever leaving. So I like to share this little piece of paradise with people, because I think most people, a lot of people, don't even know where Panama is. They're not exactly sure. They think it's either Central or South America. They know that there's a canal, but that could be the extent of a lot of people's knowledge, absolutely of a lot of people's knowledge, absolutely. So before we get into that, let the listeners know what made you move to Panama in the first place. I was looking for some excitement. I had lost my husband in a car accident and here I was, a widow in my 30s.

2:21 I didn't have a roadmap for how to navigate being a widow. I think when you get older you might expect it, but I certainly didn't expect it in my 30s and I just felt like I was stuck. I was living in Dallas, texas, and that's not where I was from. I had moved there to marry my husband and I just felt like I needed a bit of adventure and it was one of those things. I had been to about 30 different countries and every time I'd go on vacation somewhere I'd ask myself could I live there? Could I buy a vacation home there? Is it possible? And I think a lot of people do that. But when I got back from vacation in Panama, I thought you know what?

3:05 I'm going to look into this. I'm going to look a little bit deeper. So I came up with this huge checklist of what I would need in order to make it possible. I mean, I was young, so I needed to be able to make friends. I needed to have people to date. I needed to make money. I needed to find other people like me that I could communicate with, because I really knew five words of Spanish. So I was just looking and looking and looking and I thought you know what, it can't be this easy, but it was. So when it came time to doing it, I was just like you know what, I'm just going to take the leap. It's going to be like jumping into a cold swimming pool. I'm just going to do it.

3:47 So I sold my house in Dallas, I packed up some furniture, a few suitcases, my two dogs and I moved to Panama. And it's been quite the adventure. I did a lot of things wrong, but I did a lot of things right. So one of the things now that I came here to do real estate so that was the business plan that I had in mind. And when I made all the mistakes as an expat did who, like I said, didn't speak the language I discovered that one way I could really help clients was by keeping them from making the same mistakes that I had made.

4:28 You know, technology has solved some of those issues. For example, there wasn't a navigation system when I moved here. So when I bought a car, I had no idea where I was going because there was no nav system. There was no Waze, you couldn't buy a nav system with a map in Panama, so I got lost all the time. That's something that technology has solved Now we have Waze and Google Maps and it's very easy for people not to get lost. But there were other things. Like I said that I did right, and I think the one thing that I really did right was I came with an attitude of adventure and saying you know what? I'm going to hit some bumps in the road and I'm just not going to let it deter me from having fun and starting the next chapter in my life.

5:18 So I'm happy to report that three days after I moved to Panama City, I met the man who would become my next husband, who's from Brazil, so he's not an American, he's not a Panamanian. We didn't speak the same language when we met, so it could have been a disaster, but we both stuck through it, stuck to it, and now he's completely fluent in English English and we work together. So it's been a great pleasure. I've had so much fun meeting people from all around the world. I live in a condo building. They call them apartments here, but condo building. There's about 200 apartments in the building and literally there are people from all over the world australia, south africa, japan, china, all over europe, canada, us, all over latin america.

6:14 And that, to me, has been one of the biggest joys is I never would have met these people if I had stayed, you know, whether it was in dallas, texas, or if I'd move, moved back home to California, I never would have met these people. There's a saying here that when you're an expat which just means you know someone who's living in a different country that you know that you weren't born to so when you're an expat, you typically meet more people in a month than you would meet in five years back home. So that was one of the most exciting things. So that's a little bit about me in a nutshell.

6:54 Okay, well, we know that you're an entrepreneur, so talk to the listeners about someone who might be considering being an entrepreneur and setting up shop in Panama. Yep, that's a great question. Panama is so business friendly. One of the things that people look for is low tax rates and wow, that one gets checked. Some people come to Panama to open businesses and run them, even if they don't move to Panama full time. So there's a lot of people who have opened businesses here and live in another country and are just here a couple weeks, a couple months out of the year.

7:35 Then there's other people like me who've moved down and started a company. That's really easy to do. There's not a lot of different type of corporations, so in that way it's different than the US. So you typically have either a corporation or a foundation. Those are your choices. So when you open a corporation, you do pay tax. From dollar one you pay a 25% tax, but there's a lot of write-offs. So if you're a small business, you know either you're a solopreneur or you're somebody with, you know, 20 or less employees. It's pretty easy to kind of do that net zero that we all try to do.

8:18 If you're a larger company, there are several areas within specifically, panama City that offer tax-free zones, that give you tax-free in and out. So in one area of Panama City it's called Costa del Este and there's over 120 multinational companies. So companies such as Procter Gamble, nestle, samsung, adidas they all have their Latin American headquarters there because they're getting such big tax benefits. They can literally run their Panama headquarters from their tax savings. So if you're listening to this and you happen to be part of a multinational, panama also offers something for you.

9:04 But no matter what size the company is, there are good and even great tax benefits. One of the things that I think shocked me when I moved here was you know how different the business market here is from the US. And let me give you an example. Let's say you want to open a concierge dry cleaning service in the US. Well, there's probably 50 other companies in your hometown that are doing the same thing. So the market is very crowded and here, because it's a smaller country, the market isn't so crowded.

9:47 So if you admire a business in your hometown, you could quite easily bring it to Panama and there's going to be nobody doing that here and you could, as we say in marketing, find the white space, take your business, open it here and become very successful. Well, talk about the cost of living. How is the cost of living different in Panama versus the United States? Yeah, and it depends on what city you're coming from. So with me coming from Dallas, which was a very inexpensive large city, I'm paying about 50% of what I paid there and my life is the same and better.

10:31 So I'll give you an example I drive the same sort of car, I live in the same sort of home, I go out the same amount, I eat at the same types of restaurants. I go out the same amount, I eat at the same types of restaurants. I spend about the same amount in my fun activities. The difference is there's a lot of savings in what sometimes are referred to as the soft costs. So first of all, the carrying costs. Where I'm living, there has been a property tax exoneration since I moved in, so there will not be any property taxes until 2032. So right off the bat, that's a big savings.

11:14 Secondly, insurance is very inexpensive here. So the typical rule of thumb for fire and structure insurance is about one-tenth of one percent. So if you've spent $400,000 on a property, you're going to spend $400 per year in fire and structure insurance. We are literally out of the zone for any natural disasters. There's never been a recorded hurricane here. There's seismic activity, but it's so tiny. I grew up in California, there was always earthquakes happening, and here it's like a 3.2.

11:59 It's so small it doesn't register or, you know, people don't feel it. There's no tornadoes, there's not an active volcano. So when you take all the natural disasters that can cause your homeowner's insurance to be very high, we don't have any of that. Plus, you know things like we don't have extreme heat, we don't have ice and snow, so it does make it a very easy, affordable way to get insurance, and not just property insurance. Things like health insurance is very inexpensive. One of the reasons it's so inexpensive? There's a couple of reasons.

12:40 First of all, it's very difficult to sue someone in Panama. So, curtis, if I said you know what, I'm going to sue you and I'm going to sue you for $100,000, I'd need to put up about a third of that in a bond and then if I lose the lawsuit, then you get the money. So what this does is it puts up barriers against frivolous lawsuits. So what this does is it puts up barriers against frivolous lawsuits, so the money that, like in the US, that people pay, that lawsuits are paid out, trickle back down to the consumer. So because that isn't happening, things like medical insurance are still very reasonable. The other reason medical insurance is so reasonable is because doctors don't charge an arm and a leg.

13:25 I did an interview last night for my podcast, which is called the Panama Podcast, and it's on YouTube, and I interviewed a doctor and his typical office visit is $40. In that $40, he'll spend between 40 and 50 minutes per patient to really get to know you. And I actually asked him how can you make a living If you're only seeing 10 or 12 patients a day and charging $40? And you've got an office and you have overhead and you have a nurse and you have a receptionist how can you make a living? And he just laughed and he said can you make a living? And he just laughed and he said we don't need to make a ton of money, I make a fine living.

14:07 So that was a big change too. So if someone wants to get insurance, depending upon your age and if you have preexisting conditions, it can be $100 to $200 a month on average, just to give you a ballpark. So yeah, the cost of living here is a lot less expensive and because of that, things like when I lived in the US, I had a bi-monthly housekeeper. You know someone who came every other week to clean my house For the same amount that I paid for that. I actually have a full-time housekeeper here and it's one of those things when someone is helping you fold your laundry and make lunch and feed your dogs and do all the little things it takes so much stress away from your life.

14:59 It does give you more life in your lifestyle. So yes, long way to answer your question. It's about 50% cheaper than an inexpensive city in the US for the same lifestyle or better. Well, you talked about the health insurance, but what about the actual health care? You know like receiving any kind of medical care. What should people know about that? The medical care. If I were to say something that really shocked me, it's the medical care here, and it shocked me in the best way possible. I was expecting the medical care to be a few steps down from the US, and it's actually a few steps up In the US.

15:48 If you want someone to pay any attention to you, you have to really you know, be part of a concierge system. So you have to pay a monthly or yearly fee to get someone to pay attention to you here, because Latin Americans, I think, are just more caring and more family-oriented as a culture. So the first time you go to a doctor here, whether it's a GP or it's a specialist, they're going to get your contact information and Panama runs on WhatsApp, so they're going to get your phone number and your WhatsApp and then they're going to WhatsApp you the next day and they're going to say how are you?

16:29 And the first time that happens you're sort of shocked. You're like why are you asking me, what do you want? But it's such a genuine. They're genuinely following up to say how are you, how are things, how did everything go from the treatment, how are you feeling? And it's not one or two doctors that does that the doctors here are taught to do that, because it's part of the culture and it is so refreshing one that you get to spend time with a doctor and that they're not just okay, you've got five minutes. Vomit everything that's wrong with you and don't forget anything, because you've only got five minutes to really having a true conversation where you feel like that they are your partner in your health and, like I said, it's spectacular.

17:22 It makes you feel like a human instead of a number. Okay, well, tell the listeners about your podcast. You mentioned it, so tell us what we can expect when we listen to it. Yes, so the Panama podcast is on YouTube. It's on all the other ones, like Spotify if you want to listen to it when you're driving, or Apple they just read Apple iTunes. But the best way, I think, to experience it is on YouTube, because we do have a lot of visuals. And Panama if you haven't been to Panama, it's really exciting to see some of the visuals behind it so you can see. When I'm talking about the jungle, I'll show you pictures of the jungle, and when I'm talking about the Panama Canal, you'll see pictures of the Panama Canal.

18:08 Or when I'm talking about a doctor, I'm showing pictures of the different things in the hospitals. So if you want to get a good visual of what life is like in Panama, the Panama podcast is very lifestyle focused. I am a real estate broker. That's my business. But I feel like when you're buying real estate in a different country, it's not just about oh, here's a pretty house, oh, here's a pretty condo, oh, here's this. You have to know more about what life is like there before you're going to want to invest in a different country.

18:49 So a good portion of my podcasts are what is it like to go grocery shopping in Panama? What is it like to go to the doctor? What is it like to get your driver's license? So all the different things that are part of lifestyle are things that we touch on on a day-by-day basis. We have different formats. We have some podcasts where they're just strictly hey, we find this interesting and we hope you find it interesting too. And a podcast like that would be what exactly is Geisha coffee and why is it so expensive? Because Geisha coffee I'm not sure if you're aware what it is it's the most expensive coffee in the world and it's grown in the highlands of Panama.

19:33 Then we have some countdowns. So if you want to know the 10 best places to visit while you're on vacation in Panama City, we have a countdown so that you can snap, snap, snap, get the information you need and move on. Then we have some more in-depth one-on-one interviews where we talk to people like doctors and lawyers and other expats who've moved here to help you understand on a deeper level what life is like. And then the fourth type is one of my favorite new things that we've added. We have a panel, a talk show, called the Real Expats, where we have a group of three regular expats who all come from different countries, and then we have a guest, so we interview the guest, so it's sort of like the view without politics, and all we're doing is we're talking about what life is like in Panama, and so it's not just me talking, it's having these conversations, and I found that to be very enjoyable.

20:39 Well, talk about how moving to Panama has, you know, shaped or changed your personal and professional outlook. You know it has changed me in so many different ways. It has made me more open-minded. Number one Two you know, when you're exposed on a regular basis to so many different people from around the world, you get to see life from their point of view. And I think, specifically as Americans, we get very me-centric. Oh, look what's happening to me, look what's happening in our country, look what's happening politically. But a lot of the world doesn't care. And I say that because it's sort of like being the youngest child.

21:25 You think the whole world cares about you and you realize that we're just one piece of this great interconnected world. And it's refreshing, it's absolutely refreshing. I've also because I've made friends from around the world. You know, when we travel, we have friends who have houses that invited us to places like South Africa and Monaco and France and Germany, and you know Brazil, all these different places. We have friends that we can go visit. So that has been wonderful as well.

22:06 Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of. Oh, there are a couple of fun new projects. One of the things that's happening in Panama right now is that we have been undergoing some incredible infrastructure projects that not only affect Panama from the inside, but they affect Panama from the outside. So, other than just roads and bridges and things like that, we recently finished an airport expansion, which the main airport is, panama Tocuman Airport in Panama City. They just expanded it and doubled the number of terminals and tripled the capacity of people that can be processed.

22:53 In conjunction with that, they just finished a cruise ship terminal. If you were able to see what I see from my window I can actually see it from my window. It's right across the bay. It can process two humongous ships and 10,000 people a day. The Panama Tourism Authority has said that they think, with these two huge projects that finished last year, that tourism is going to triple from the end of last year to the end of this year. That's a huge amount of people. So, as tourism increases and it's fun, like I said, a lot of people.

23:34 If you were to ask 100 people on the street, do you know where Panama is? I would bet a good portion of them don't know where it is. So when people come here on a cruise ship and they are able to see oh, this is Panama. Wow, the city skyline. It doesn't look like a third world country. It looks like a young Miami, because all these sparkling, beautiful skyscrapers are literally lined up on this huge ocean boulevard. It's such a beautiful city that people are shocked. And what happens when people experience you get more and more people experience that same positive shock is that eventually they want to come back and when they come back, they're interested in investing either in a vacation home or diversifying their income, maybe a plan B, or maybe they want to do what I did, and just they want a better lifestyle.

24:36 So they want to move here full time. Because of that, we're seeing more and more people interested in learning more about Panama. I offer a free book on my website. My website is choosepanamacom and my book is called Panama Uncorked. It's a really easy book and it's a good place. If you really know nothing about Panama, it's a good place to just sort of discover Panama. I write a lot in bullet points. It's very skippable, something you don't want to read, so for most people you can read it just in one sitting. Once you read that, then they typically say, okay, I want to know more.

25:16 Then, after reading the book, it's easy to go to the podcast and then through that we've seen the people interested in real estate has definitely increased this year over last year's. We think that this is going to be an ongoing trend. So for someone who's thinking about investing in overseas real estate and Panama's on your radar definitely now is the time, because we do see this as the catalyst where prices are going to increase. I don't think it's going to be a boom like the dot-com boom in California where it's just gone stupid crazy. But I think again now if you're thinking about it, do it now, before next year, because we do see the increases happening in real estate.

26:08 Okay, well, you just answered my next question. Website choosepanamacom yes, so close us out with some final thoughts. Maybe, if that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners. Yes, One thing I want to say so many people dream about absolute beachfront real estate. You know, Curtis, I'm sure you have. I know I did before I moved here. You can get absolute beachfront real estate for under $200,000 here and the carrying costs all in are going to be under $500 a month, Something like that. If you're only here part-time, you rent it out the rest of the year and then all of a sudden you get.

26:49 Maybe you're not stuffing a lot of money into your pocket, but you're basically vacationing for free because you're having other people cover your carrying costs. So if you think that something like a beachfront real estate is out of reach, definitely take a look at Panama. There's something in a lot of different price points. Again, there's something absolute beachfront that's under 200,000. There's something that is really elegant close to the city, starting about 300,000. And then if you want a beach mansion, you can get that for a couple of million. All right, ladies and gentlemen, there you have it. So if you're thinking about checking out Panama, go check it out, whether it's for tourism or real estate, or to live or vacation, and please be sure to check out Melissa's podcast.

27:41 Check out the book. Visit her website, choosepanamacom, follow, rate Review. Share this episode to as many people as possible. Check us out on your favorite podcast app. If you have any guests or suggestion topics, curtis Jackson 1978 at attnet is the place to send them. Thank you for listening and supporting the show and, melissa, thank you for all that you do by letting everybody know about Panama. Thank you so much for having me, and if anyone wants to come see me in Panama, just send me a message on my website. We can help you set up your whole vacation. For more information on the Living the Dream podcast, visit wwwdjcurveballcom.

28:24 Until next time, stay focused on living the dream.