Judged Either Way: The Harsh Realities of Parenting and Career Choices

Foreign.

Hello.

Welcome back to my crazy Uncle Dave's podcast.

I'm your Uncle Dave and today is International Women's Day, so we have a special episode.

I have two of my good friends, Granja Dunn, who runs her own company of virtual assistants and social media marketing, and Claire Marshall, who is a fractional CMO and runs her own company.

Both have young kids, and we have a really, really good conversation about women and working and how society views women or parents who stay at home to raise the kids as opposed to going back to work and some of the challenges around that.

So look forward to the episode.

But I did just want to jump in at the beginning and say we recorded at a club, Club Quantum, which is in Tunbridge Wells, which we all love, and we do co working there once a week, but.

And normally it's a quiet environment.

However, of course, the day that we wanted to go and record, there was a group of five or six guys that were making tons and tons of noise in the background and it played havoc with the audio.

So I just want to warn everybody that the audio is not studio quality in this episode, and I apologize for that.

But hopefully you'll be able to see your way through that and listen because I think it was a fascinating conversation and we had a good time and lots of laughs.

So stick with us and we'll see you next time.

Hello.

Welcome back to my crazy Uncle Dave's podcast.

Today we have a special for International Women's Day, and I have a couple of friends here who want to rant with me about.

About women and working and.

And taking care of kids and how, you know, how we manage that process.

And I really wanted to bring up my rant on it is just based on my personal experience with my wife and some of her friends and the feedback that she's had and that we've seen.

I think Claire is with us and Granja is with us as well.

And I think both of them have some maybe different views on that, which will be good to get a different perspective on things.

And so, yeah, I think we'll just get started.

So setting out the style in the beginning, my position is, is that I think women who stay at home make the decision to stay at home to take care of kids.

And I've also been corrected a few times that it should be people instead of just women, but I think traditionally it's been women who've stayed home.

And I think I want to kind of keep the discussion, but I suspect that it's probably even worse for men that If a man stays home now that, that somehow he's like emasculated because he stays home with the kids, which shouldn't be the thing at all.

And it really isn't because again, it is a job.

So I suspect it may be worse even for men these days.

Sometimes the women are the breadwinner.

Exactly.

Now again, today, that's much more the case than it used to be even 20 years ago.

So, yeah, that's a whole nother wrinkle to the conversation.

But anyway, that's the setting on our saw, that's kind of the topic of the discussion.

And we were talking just a few minutes ago, actually we were talking about the fact that, you know, there are a lot of government programs and stuff like that that make it cheaper and more affordable for people to go back to work.

Let's start this over.

So my position is that when my wife and I had our first son, this was 18 years ago, so put that in the context of the time frame as well.

But she was working full time, working on a finance team, you know, getting paid for her sort of point in her career and what she was doing in the job that she had, you know, she's getting London wages.

And so we were making a decent amount of money.

I had a job as well.

But we still had to make a decision about whether she went back to work or we were, you know, we were going to put Aiden in childcare or was she going to stay at home and be a stay at home mom and raise him.

And so she was of two minds.

She was kind of like, well, I could kind of do either.

So we sat down and just ran all the numbers.

And at that time when we ran all the numbers, we were actually £200 better off if she stayed home than if she went back to work.

Because once you factored in the cost of commuting and everything else and lunches and like all the other stuff on top of the childcare that went with that.

And this was in West London, so we're in Richmond.

So, you know, to put it into sort of a context of where we were as well, just for price and for people out there who don't know anything about that, that's sort of an upper middle class kind of neighborhood in London.

So it's pretty expensive.

But what was interesting is this sort of the, once the.

Once her sort of maternity leave and everything was over, right?

So everybody takes that you've got your maternity leave, which in the UK and in Europe is amazing compared to the US because The us you get like, what, six weeks or something and that's it.

Yeah.

And you're expected to be back at work.

But over here, you know, she had basically a year of maternity leave and then decided to stay home after that.

And it was just really interesting because she started getting little comments and kind of.

She.

She noticed that some of her friends who went back to work were kind of treating her differently than they were before, particularly in the mums group.

Right.

So you have the prenatal group or whatever, the antenatal prenatal group, and some of the women in there who decided to go back to work, I don't know what it was, but it kind of felt like they were looking down on her because she chose not to go back to work.

And so this is my rant, because I think it's important, if you can.

I think it's important to be able to stay at home, spend the time with the kids.

But I also understand wanting to stay working and to stay involved because you want to progress your career.

Because the.

The flip side of that is that once, you know, our son was kind of old enough to take care of himself, basically, my wife wanted to go back to work.

And I don't think she'll mind me saying this, she kind of lost her confidence with working because she'd been out of the workforce for so long.

That definitely happens, for sure.

And things had moved on so much that she really was worried and almost felt like she was starting from scratch when she really wasn't.

And she has a very, you know, she has knowledge in accounting and finance and things like that, which hasn't changed ever.

And so she literally could go right back into a job.

She didn't have the confidence.

And so that's kind of the framework that I'm coming from.

And I'm wondering if you've experienced the same thing, or do you, you know, have people who stayed at home, do they look at you differently or do.

Something a bit controversial to say that you're going to say, oh, yeah, And I know Claire's going to be like, no, I.

I stayed at home with my boy for the first two years and he was my first son.

And I looked at the maths and it wasn't nothing, it wasn't worth it emotionally for me.

Yeah, I.

I would have been better off because there are a lot of schemes now that help with the childcare, but the £700 I would have been better off by wasn't enough for me to want to, you know, leave my baby Boy at the time.

And I felt I had a lot of friends that went back to work.

And this is where you're going to say no.

I felt, honestly, my position was that some of the mums that went back, especially the ones that went back after six months, were telling me that I was doing less because secretly they were jealous that they weren't able to have that time.

Because.

Because financially, for me, it wasn't really.

It wasn't that my husband earned so much money that we didn't have to go back to work.

But I think for some of them, they did feel stuck financially because they were the breadwinner.

So, for instance, one of my friends, they're both earning well.

She was earning a bit better than him on paper, that is, at least.

And they had a huge mortgage.

So she didn't have the choice of not going back to work.

She had to go back at six months.

And I think, you know, there was a little bit of rhetoric that was like, you know, oh, you know, well, you're, you know, it's easy, it's all right for you.

You're still on basically maternity leave.

Perpetual maternity leave, they would say.

And I thought, well, actually, this is bloody hard work.

And, you know, these babies are really full on.

And, you know, I've changed like eight nappies today.

You know, like, how do you feel?

Like you've been at work, sitting, chilling at your office, like, having a cup of coffee with real adults.

And I, for me, I do think in that early stages, at least some of that does come from the desire that they would have in.

Especially in those early months, they felt pressured to go back.

So they kind of diminish you still being with them as a way of sort of feeling like, you know, this was my choice.

And I don't think it's everybody's choice, especially not at six months or eight months.

I think when they get to like, two, you are desperate.

You are so desperate to leave those children.

Actually, maybe I can just.

Your touch on the choice, I think, is.

It's probably that.

That's all about that.

So for you guys, it was a choice that you made financially.

And I think what we're doing here is exploring the.

The option of going back to work or staying at home.

And I.

I think we're in a privileged time now where the.

That isn't the only choice and there's loads of options behind it.

And actually where.

Where we've both got to and so many other.

And.

And it.

It does tend to be more women that have to make that choice is, well, how can I progress myself and not necessarily in, in, in a career, but in a business in, in a way that intellectually challenges me, in a way that I can still be present for my family, for my child and bring in whatever needs to be brought in.

And those options are there.

And, and it can be with exploring conversations with an employer around flexible working.

It can also be about thinking what skills can I take to, to, to be self employed or, or run a business.

So I think it's, I feel that there's not enough conversations around actually that there isn't a black or white stay at home or go back to work.

But actually what, what are all of the other options that, that are out there that aren't being explored?

And that's, that's what riles me that I don't think that that choice has to be made.

And, and I like you made that choice.

I was on Maternity League when Jack was four months old.

I made up my mind I was not going back to work.

I was not going to go and do the nine to five, the commuting.

I actually saw as I was looking at a nursery, there was a parent but just dropped off.

I was like legging it to the train station.

We were in London at the time, actually close to Barnes.

We were in Mortlake and I just saw that and I thought I don't want that pressure.

I don't want to have to like literally like chuck my baby over the wall so that I can make the train.

And then you're rushing and racing.

Exactly.

What if you're stuck in London and you've got to pick them up because they bang their head, which happens.

Some other person is running with them to an ambulance.

I would just panic me a lot of the, I thought, no, no, I can't.

So that image is just in my, it was, it's just always stayed with me because that's the moment where I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that.

I was, I already had things brewing because I'd qualified hypnotherapy and I was doing it on the side.

But that for me was like, no.

So at four months old I then started to sleep quite a bit at that time and luckily he was asleep.

I started kind of working with what that was going to look like and eventually I did explore conversations with going back part time that that wasn't really an option with, with the role that I had.

So that cemented it for me and, and I haven't looked back since and it's a whole different podcast.

The challenges that have come with that on every level.

But that option is there.

And seven and a half years later, I, I, that flexibility is there where I can.

Especially when they then go to school and it's the school plays or the pickup or they're ill because they've hang their head.

That flexibility is there and, and I can be there for him whenever he needs me, but I'm also pursuing something that helps me to grow.

And I think personally, and it's a personal decision, makes me a better parent to him because I'm working on something that inspires me every day as well as him.

So choices are so important.

And to your point about.

I've seen both sides of it.

I've definitely seen some of the, oh, they don't work and some kind of judgment around it.

I've also seen pockets of some of the mums that don't work being judgmental over the, the mums that do choose to go back.

It's like, oh, you don't even have your child.

How can you do that?

Or you're missing out on all these years.

It feels acceptable to almost say, oh, but you're missing out on all these years.

And it's that, well, actually, you don't know what, what's behind those choices.

And I'm, and trust me, they're still there.

And I'm pretty sure there are very, very few mothers and fathers that go to work 9 to 5 and don't get home till late, that don't feel a loss of the time they're missing.

So I think I've seen both sides of it and I think society needs to just let people make their choices and stop judging.

Yeah.

Well, but this is the basis, right?

It's.

It's people being judgy.

Yeah.

And this is the core of what I'm getting to.

Right.

Is it's.

And, and what you've rightfully pointed out is people are judging both ways.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll give a perfect example.

So this is my second marriage.

So with my first wife, we had twins.

And so there's a mothers of multiples.

Right.

Group.

And so you go, basically, I'm crap.

Because I've only had one at time.

And they're super mums.

Exactly.

So the mothers of multiple.

So you go along to the mothers of multiples.

Right.

And we went to the sort of the very first meeting and then somebody very, you know, it's like, oh, hey, you know, nice to meet you.

Blah, Blah, blah.

And then somebody sort of came over a little bit and they were like, oh, you know, so was it.

Was it like IVF or was it natural or whatever?

We were like, no, it was natural.

And da, da, da.

And they were like, oh, okay, that's amazing.

That's really good.

Blah, blah, blah.

You should come and talk to.

And what it was was it was the snobbery within the multiples group of whether it was natural multiples or was IVFs.

And so basically, so much snobbery in parenting anyway.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we had no idea.

And so the people were like, were you elite?

Yeah, we were elite.

Okay, so Harry Lasso, right?

So you.

You were there.

Yeah, yeah.

Because they're like actual twins, as opposed to.

You went to a lab and got twins.

That was the.

Just even within the group.

And that was the snobbery within the group.

And it was.

We were.

We're just like, it's fucking hilarious.

We were just laughing and leaving, going, this is just like, so funny.

But.

But that's what happens, right?

Like, that's people and that's humans.

But the thing that I.

I think maybe it is just the judginess, the blatant judging of it either way, because there is no.

There isn't a right or wrong.

It's not.

The way I see it is as long as a couple and that that couple could look, however couples may look when.

When they choose to have a child, have a conversation around, how is this going to work?

How can we both be involved in.

In the best upbringing for our child or children?

Yeah, so that they have the best.

So that we have the best as a couple.

Because that's often when things can go wrong because that coupleness gets overlooked.

And also as individuals and I just, you know, maybe I belong in Disney World, but I think that there is always a way around it.

So I, you know, I think that I personally.

And I don't care what anyone else does.

I literally don't care.

I'm not making judgments on anyone, but in my thing, I think it's better if someone.

Someone, either parent can stay home with the kid.

For me, that's the ideal, I think.

Because then would you want to be that parent?

I wouldn't mind.

Yeah.

I think.

I don't think my husband could hack it, honestly.

And I think you would admit that.

I think it's.

It's absolutely exhausting and it's really hard.

And it's also.

How long.

How long for?

Because this point in which actually is that A perspective is, is there a point of which that's not the best the child?

Because is it good for them to be going to a setting where they socialize with other kids and play with kids their age as opposed to being at home with mum and dad until they're five?

Again, no judgment, but if everybody is that way, then you've got the parent that's at home and they're taking the kids out, they're going to the park, they're playing, they're socializing with other kids as well already.

Anyway, so there's other ways, you know, that you can do that.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, that's how it was for ages and I think you're one of the things you're getting to and I know you want to say something, Rania, so I'll let you in in a second, is like the different pairs here.

But, but what's interesting today in particular now in 2025, is that the whole working from home option and all of that has come in whereas 18 years ago no one did that.

Although no one did that.

I know people I've heard say, like, oh yeah, I was having a conversation recently with somebody, I can't remember who it was, and it's like, oh yeah, my husband said he could work from home with the baby when it's born.

It's like that might work if it's a really good sleeper for a few months.

There's going to come a point where that's going to work.

Yeah, but does it help with being able to make the school pickups or the nursery pickups or just generally just do a few things?

I think it's vastly different to what it was even at the point.

And I was very lucky.

I did work with an employee that actually had flexible working anyway, but that was quite rare at the time and that's really talking seven years ago.

So I think it's a huge advantage there.

But, but the staying home is a job.

I, I, that's, I think the other thing is just that people don't see it as a job in itself because you are, you're the, you're the managing director of the home.

I agree.

Hugely undervalued.

It's hugely undervalued.

And not only was it more financially beneficial for, for my wife to stay home, but she clicking, ran it like a business and which was amazing.

And she works in finance anyway, so she's quite kind of, you know, she always likes to be on top of the bills and she's always looking at like Where.

Which credit card should we have?

Because it's got the lowest rate and can we switch it to?

You know, so she's always doing that kind of stuff anyway, but she, like, was like, right, I'm the FD of.

Of our family, you know, Team Brown, and I'm going to run it like a business.

And so she was always looking for, like, you know, the.

The lowest utility bills and, you know, where could we get the lowest gas prices and where was the cheapest meat and all that sort of stuff, because she had the more time to focus on those things.

But she.

She viewed it like a job, and she's like, this is the value that I'm bringing to Team Brown is that I'm sort of paying my way.

But this is where.

This is exactly what we was talking about before with the finance dynamic, because this is really important part of it, because for me, you know, I know we've spoken about it before, and it's about how you're dividing your finances and especially in that time, and a lot of couples, you know, you.

You have your own money, your own life, and then you have children and things have to change.

And, you know, me and my husband, we had a joint bank account that had all our bills and our mortgage and all of that coming out of it.

And we used to both put money into it.

And then when I was gonna have a baby, it was like, well, I can't put money in it.

I don't have any money.

And he had to sort of give me some money to live on.

And for me, this is what I just couldn't really handle for a long period of time because I.

He would have given me whatever I wanted, but he still had a finite resource.

And I like the finer things in life.

I want to be able to spend my money on the things I want to spend my money on.

I didn't like that.

I would have to say to him, hey, look, I'm going to go out for a brunch with the girls on Saturday, and I'm going to blow a hundred pounds of your money.

Is that all right?

You know, I didn't want to have to do that.

And it did stifle me.

It made me feel like every time I wanted my nails done, I was having to ask for money.

Every time I wanted my hair done, I was having to ask for money.

What's interesting is, is that you felt that way, yet you weren't valuing that, that the reason you were having to go for that branch and ask for that one Hundred pounds is because you weren't working, but what you were doing.

Yeah, it was my wages.

I wanted my wages.

And you were, you were basically raising your child.

But.

But yet somewhere ingrained is.

Is still.

Even though I'm doing all of that, I'm asking you for money as a business thinking, going back to your point that it was a team approach and I think it's really are into that mindset of, yes, you are financially paying for everything, but why is that money that you're bringing in in any way more valuable than what I'm doing?

And he never bought it.

You know, it was so me.

I'd say, oh, can I have this?

I'd say to him, I'm just feeling really in myself.

You know, I put on all this weight and I just feel miserable.

I need a new wardrobe, I need new jeans.

And he'd be like, well, let's go shopping.

And he would, he would.

You know, he doesn't really spend much on himself.

He's a bodybuilder, doesn't do his hair, doesn't do his makeup.

You know, he's not got expenses.

He.

He shops in standard places, buys plain white T shirts.

You know, he's not really a brand whore, you know, so really he was like, yeah, whatever you need.

But for me, I still felt like I was continually asking and just like I was a financial drain, which is why really similar to you.

When I then had my second.

That's when I decided to set up my business and I thought, yeah, I'm not, I'm not doing this anymore.

I.

I've been working for an agency, doing what I do now whilst he was small, because I wanted to make some money and I made a little bit of money and it was great.

So I felt I had a bit of pocket money.

I still absolutely wasn't contributing.

I'm still not contributing, but I'm wondering how long that's going to last for.

Currently it's all beer money for me.

But, but if it gives you, it.

Gives you a path towards something, it gives you growth, it gives you, you something you're working towards.

And actually, even if it enables you to, to have your brunches and, and buy your clothes without have to go for it, then yes, that's.

I'm still not a Dre.

You know, when, when then I started my business, it was.

It quite quickly enabled me to stop taking from the pot of money.

And I never ask for money now.

And if I, you know, even for the children, you know, I would be.

When I'm buying them new sets of clothes, which comes all the time when they're three and one every year.

Yeah.

When I need that.

I used to be sort of saying, well, I need a few hundred quid because we've got to do a big, you know, big shop to get in some.

Now I can just buy that myself.

And I'm not asking for money in that way.

So, you know, I'm definitely less of a drain.

But I think it will come down to how your finances are set up as a couple.

Because, you know, I know with you, David, you.

You split everything.

It's all in one pot and you share the money.

Yeah.

Whereas.

So in her instance, my wife does have a.

So she does have her own savings account and.

But I think it's important.

And she has her own credit cards as well because she needs to have her own credit history.

And spoiler alert, we're going to do a whole episode talking about finances because I want you to very quickly give people a teaser of this crazy thing that you.

Yeah, well, I.

I split my.

I thought my finances were split quite normally the way that we do it.

We've got a pot of money.

We both put in.

We used to put 50, 50 in, but I have now.

I know of two people who will.

Who.

They're married, they live together, it's their joint home and they split everything down the middle.

Like, everything.

Like every purchase for the house, every mirror for the wall, every food shop.

And when they go food shopping, if she adds things to the basket, like shampoo for her hair, she has to add them to a basket at the end.

And they're married.

They're married and she pays for that separately.

I want to split the toilet roll.

Because you fucking crazy.

You could literally argue like, who's actually using the most here.

And do we need.

I can hear his argument going.

Well, I go at the office and, you know, so you've got to pay for that.

Yeah.

Wow.

So the people.

People are out there living these wild lives and I don't think enough people talk about.

And I mentioned this friend to someone else.

That becomes.

To me not.

That's not even about money.

That is about.

That's a.

That's deeper relationship and team.

I'll keep coming out to team.

I think that's.

That's what relationship should be.

And I think if you're a real team, then.

Then that slip into this, though.

It's weird.

It's like.

I think it's because I guess if you're used to doing that as separate individuals.

You come together initially, you do it, and then you never form into the.

Yeah, yeah.

So, spoiler alert.

That's going to be a whole episode in itself.

We're going to dig into that one.

We're going to try and find someone who will actually talk about it publicly.

Because there might be more.

Yeah.

I want to find a few people who have different arrangements and I think if we could.

We could do a show like this with my.

Maybe three people who each do it differently.

Yeah.

And then we could all talk about, you know, why it works for us.

Because this is like, it's.

Again, it's.

How long is the piece of string?

Right.

You could do it any way that works for you.

Right.

And, you know, maybe you've got people who had a prenup and you've got one person who makes an extreme amount of money and the other one doesn't.

And so then you've got some considerations around that.

How do you balance that?

If you've got, like a famous person.

Because I pay for a coffee, would you?

Exactly, like, God, why am I paying for the coffee?

Yes.

You know, so there's some of that.

But anyway, yeah, let's.

But the finances do come into it with the children.

So I think that that was a big factor, actually for me.

And I do wonder sometimes, no shade, but if my husband was earning five times, 10 times, whatever, I don't know what figure it would have been, that maybe I wouldn't have gone and maybe I would have never set up a business.

Maybe, maybe a lot of it for me was about, I wanted financial freedom.

I don't know that.

But would you still felt the, can I please have some money for my brunch?

Even if he's earning 10 times what he's earning, would you have still felt that you actually wanted to be able to maybe do that for yourself?

Maybe, maybe.

But then maybe if he earned that much, I would be like, listen, I want a wage.

And I would have felt comfortable to say, I want.

You just get a.

Two and a half grand.

Yeah.

You know, if I had my allowance, then, you know, if we.

If we were in a financial position that it was more sort of structured, maybe I would have felt like, well, this is my money and I'm just happy.

But then, to be honest, I was really.

By the time I had my second and honestly, they were quite close together and my little boy was two and two months when she was born, so they were quite close together, and I was just so ready to not be a mom.

And as much as that's like sad, like she was three months old and I was like desperate to get my brain in gear, I could not cope with mum life anymore.

And I really, I'm so happy how my business has progressed and enabled me to still have a couple of days of the week with my kids and I still pick them up and drop them off every day.

Quality time that we will talk about where you're spending time, not just being stressed because you, you've, you've had something else going on.

And again, it's different for different people.

But for me, I know that that makes me, yeah, better parents because then, then I'm actually spending that time and it doesn't mean you always have to be doing like a planned activity or anything.

Sometimes it could just be like we're hanging out, watching a film or I'm doing the ironing while he's playing with some toys.

But we're still together and enjoying that time.

And yeah, for me that works, but.

But it again is just about the.

So if money were no object, what would your arrangement be?

What would you like it to be?

I think I, I think I would have probably not gone back to work and probably wouldn't have started if, say there was like absolutely millions, you know, I probably would have not started the business because I, I loved having them and if I was in a position financially that I could have sent them off to preschool a couple of mornings a week and the money was there to do that, to take the pressure off of the continual being with them, which is really.

If I had to have them with me 24, seven, two of them, I would have definitely started the business and gone back to work if I was.

Do you consider something like.

If money was no objects being at home and maybe having a nanny to take some of the load off.

I don't think personally I could handle someone else parenting my children right in front of my eyes.

I don't think I could cope because.

And it's someone else in the house and it's been like some more terrible.

You know, passing them off and knowing that, you know, my little girl now goes to a child minor and she's gone to her since she was like 11 months old.

She's so happy there.

And I know this woman is just so lovely, but I don't want to be there all day watching her mother my children.

It would be, I'd feel like, oh, I'll change that nappy or I'll feed her.

You know, I would just be butting in all the time.

So I think.

I think it would be nice to have them away from you sometimes.

But then that said, I think I would have got bored and I would have.

Probably for me, I'd have ended up having like some.

I would have been a content creator, you know, if I had.

If I was a millionaire, you know, and I had this big beautiful house and my children were at preschool and I was.

I'd be like, yummy mummy.

Tunbridge Wells 2.0.

You know, and I'd be like.

I'd be like, mom fluid, sir.

You know, that's because she'd have it.

On haywall in the back of Gail's.

I'd be like, she'd have Gail.

Yeah, I would be.

Gail's.

Come and see.

I'd be.

I'd be one of these moms going, oh, look at the chalkboard for this week.

What fun.

The activities.

You know, I've made these beautiful baskets for Easter.

That would be me, you know, I'd be.

I'd be making myself busy doing non.

Anyway, what was.

He did at Christmas?

So it was the.

The gingerbread house.

Yeah, I do.

That's more for me.

That's my own hobby today.

Do you have two small children?

Well, it's World Book Day today and my son is wearing his pajamas that are super worm, so we're not really.

Nailing ours comes from Amazon every year.

There's no homemade costume.

I don't know how you.

Claire.

Yeah.

Pardon?

What about you?

In what respect?

If money were no object.

Money were no object.

Just do whatever.

What would be your ideal arrangement?

I mean, I'm not far off having an arrangement I love at the moment.

I have the freedom to.

To work my business as I want.

I.

It would be nice to take some of the pressure off sometimes of things that we're talking about clients earlier when we.

And sometimes there's work or things that might not be exactly what you want to be doing.

So it's perhaps to be more.

More choosy or to be more creative because there's more budget for it and to do more.

More things.

But in terms of kind of the work life balance, which is the scope of this, I guess in terms of parenting and, and the time that I have for.

For doing my own thing, certainly during term time, that, that balance is right.

When it comes to the.

The very lengthy holidays, it, it's.

It's a bit trickier and, and.

And again, that's where it's.

It's all about kind of balancing and that's where it's, it's so great to be able to be in a position where I can just think, okay, well maybe I just, you know, work a bit more during the term time.

And so I'm sort of evolving actually the business to a point where I can then maybe step back a bit more.

And if money were no object, then I would be like, oh, the month of August, we're going to go and hire a, like an enormous villa in, I don't know, Bali and just invite all our friends to come over and then I'll dip in and out and do something and do parents together and do some nice videos and we could.

Bring my kids.

And, and so all, all of that stuff.

But it's a slightly, it sounds like the dream.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's what we're, that's what we're doing.

And, and something that you mentioned in there as well, which is a, which is a really good point.

I think there's, there's also the preschool.

Yeah.

And then the.

In school.

Because once the kids are in school, that's a totally different kind of thing because there is, you know, you've got the score on in the morning, which is, you know, the morning nightmare that everybody goes through for like ever.

It seems like it never ends.

But then, and then you have the pickup in the afternoon that you have to manage those two things.

But then you have that time during the day.

Yeah.

To kind of do stuff.

So that's a great opportunity to be able to do some work, to do some freelancing or, you know, to run a small business or to do whatever you want to do and stay engaged.

And I guess it's, you know, I guess maybe I'm thinking about that very bit at the beginning, you know, until they're in school because that's really when they need kind of full time care, whether it's you or someone else or an A or like whatever in that it's that kind of period.

Yeah.

And that, that can still be sort of hybrid.

So you know, you can like you do two days at the nursery or a nice arrangement sometimes is that they do a couple of mornings, two or three mornings with someone just to.

That's how I started with Jack.

There was just, there was somebody that, that, that we, that we knew that had a great nanny and it was literally she would just take him for a couple of hours twice a week.

And in that time I just started setting things up and that was, that was good for me.

And, and until he was then one and went to Nursery and even that was very much part time, so.

And then built it up as you got older.

But yeah, you're right, when they go to school it can be easier if you've been doing all of the childcare, it can be harder if you've not.

If you haven't because then the day for shorter for 6:00pm yeah.

And then the, you know, that's why actually when I chose my little boy goes to free school because I just knew if I got into a nice routine of picking them all up at 6:00 at night, that was gonna really come back to bite me.

So they're both term time only they're both in preschool and a childminder.

But I pick my little girl up from the childminder just after I get in from preschool and my days are short, but I'm used to that.

But now my little boy is gonna be starting school in September and I don't know whether I'll up her hours or I'll just have some time just with her or whether she'll get bored with just me because she's a sibling and when she's at home now she's got her brother to play with and you know, I don't really get much work done but I might do a little bit of work when they're playing together or when she's napping, which she probably won't be doing by the time he's in school.

So, you know, then it's like, oh, do I have her five days a week in childcare?

Which sometimes I don't think you can forward plan it too much because you have to play it a bit by ear.

And it depends on the child and the dynamic.

But yes, it can be easier when they go to school.

But conversely, for many people that have, I think by the time Jack finished preschool he was doing maybe three, maybe four days a week, something like that.

You did have the option to pick them up sort of 6, even 6, 13.

I actually didn't.

But that option was there.

And for many parents, especially that commute, that is an essential option to Suddenly go to three, 3:30 pickups.

Yes, of course there's after school clubs, but even those don't run as late.

So it's Fred who works as a agent, she's actually just changed what she was doing.

But she was working six days a week every other week, Monday to Saturday, she was leaving her house at 8 in the morning and she was picking him up from the childminder at half past six at night, getting home with him for about five to seven, putting him in the bath and putting him to bed and she really felt she never saw him and that is why she changed her career.

And I think, you know, it's, it's all fine to say we'll go back to work, we need the money or whatever, but in those situations that is heartbreaking.

And she had to go back, she had to pay the mortgage, she'd set herself up in a certain way in her life that she was kind of essential to the paying the bills.

And I was stuck there at that point.

Yeah.

And it is rubbish for that.

And even the, you know, what they're doing now with the childcare, you're going to have from September this year, 30 hours for anyone nine months and above.

But that's term time only.

So if you're spreading that across the year, it's 22 and a half hours a week, which isn't enough.

And it definitely, I think we were saying this before we went on record but it definitely, I, when this all sort of came about was, was thinking, oh, it's 22 hours.

It doesn't actually work out like that because then it's the shades jerk it out.

Yeah, they just slightly differently, they say.

Let them be funded hours if it's lunchtime.

I don't understand that.

But you have to pay a lunch hour fee and then there's all the.

Injuries and stuff out of it.

So it basically the way I initially calculated was like, oh, it's going to mean that this many hours reduced my bill, it doesn't quite work out.

And that all the nurseries can afford it.

My boys, priests.

No, they can't afford to do the 30 hours.

Many child minders can't because there's a lot of process around it as well, I believe makes it quite difficult for smaller so it reduces the bill.

But is it moving in the right direction?

Absolutely.

Especially coupled with, you know, the increased flexible working.

So I think, I think we're heading in the right direction but I think the big change needs to come from where we started this, which is that just society and choices and the just everybody making the choice that's right for them and the just the lack of just the removal of the judgment because every family is very, very different and will have their own reasons and dynamics and.

Well, most people don't have a choice.

Yeah, I totally get it when they don't have the choice because if you've bought your house especially, you know, we are very kind of London focused here and I know that you know, people think it's wild, but I've got friends who are earning just over the 100 grand a year threshold, which means you get no help with childcare.

If one parent is earning over 100 grand a year, you don't get any help, not even the tax free allowance.

Whereas two parents could be earning 80 and you would.

Yeah, yeah.

And I understand that's a London problem, but if your mortgage is two and a half grand a month and one of you is earning 100 grand a year and you're taking home about five grand and the other one's earning 25 grand a year in an admin job, there is literally zero point in them going back to work because you are exactly, absolutely nothing.

God forbid you had twins, God forbid you had two children, God forbid you had three children.

It's thousands.

Especially our childcare here is thousands a month.

It's not, you know, in London, I know we are more expensive and even where we are, you know, a bit further out of London, but we're still paying London prices.

And mortgages are £2,000 for a family home.

It's not going to cost you 800 quid anymore.

So.

So that's a, that's a really interesting point that we really hadn't touched on, which is when you have more than one, this is almost a whole conversation about what if you just have one.

Right.

Once you start having two or three.

Yeah.

Then the whole financial model gets blown out of the water because it's so expensive to try and do that.

Like the offset of doing that.

You're way better staying home with them if you can, because there is no other option.

I have friends who aren't having a second child because they can't afford it.

And one of them is earning about £130,000 a year, the other one's earning about 80 grand a year.

How the hell is that life?

Because they've got a biggish mortgage, they pay a couple of grand a month on their mortgage.

The bills for the biggest.

And it's not a mansion, you know, it's a large semi with a drive, you know, but in southeast London, that's what we're paying.

It's a big mortgage for them and you know, just from their bills, to commute their bills for nursery for the one child, the costs of having another one, they're thinking, well, I think realistically, luckily their child is born so that they'll go to school when they're four.

So they're thinking, well, if we do want a second we'd have to wait until she's in school.

And that's just nuts, that choice based.

On that and you don't know how your fertility is going to be then like that's a whole nother ball game.

You know, and it's, that's a whole nother.

It's sad that you have to make these.

And I, to be fair, I always said to my husband, I'm not ever going to let money stop me from having children.

And when we talked about a third that, you know, I'm pretty sure now I don't want a third.

But I said at the time, if I want one, I'm having one.

I'm not going to say I can't.

Afford a baby because you can never afford one.

No, let's just make that really clear.

No matter how much money you make enough money.

It's exactly, it's never the right time and you can never afford it.

Even Michael Jackson had kids and then went bankrupt.

Yeah, he like filed for bankruptcy after having kids.

It, like no one can afford it.

Yeah.

So just get on.

And again, this is another topic on my list that I started with, which was in my opinion, if you're, if you want to have kids, have them get married as early as possible and have them as young as possible because.

What if you married the wrong person?

I know, but I'm just saying in general, if you could, if you know, all things being again, ideal, get married young and have them young because it's so much easier to take care of them, to do all the stuff, the sleepless nights, all that sort of stuff is so much easier the younger you are.

It's true.

But as you get older, I didn't.

Have my son 40, which, you know, I believe I was coined geriatric parents.

At the hospital, I was like, wow.

Actually like you walk in, they put.

You in a special war.

Jack, he was due, he was two weeks early, which meant he was technically born two days before my 40th, which I, I've always been grateful for.

So I can actually say I'm in my 30s.

But obviously societally that was, that was quite late.

But that's because prior to that it's not because I was some kind of like a big career, you know, I.

I, I'm all about it, Daddy Warburg.

It's just that I hadn't met the, the right person.

I hadn't, you know, my life was, was very much distracted in other areas and for me to just, you know, had the opportunity, arisen much younger I can't, I can't.

I can't tell you what my choices would have been, but it's very difficult to.

You'd almost have to plan that kind of in your teens.

I'm going to meet someone by my early 20s because what you say to me makes complete sentence.

Then by the time your kids have kind of grown up, you know, you still, you still have so much.

So then you could be a grandparent.

You could be a grandparent.

45.

You could be.

And you have to start and over again.

So I had a friend that was a grandparent at 36.

It's disgusting.

That's disgusting.

But I was a parent.

I know.

Which was mad.

And he was this Dutch guy.

Lovely, lovely guy.

But yeah, I mean they had their kids when they were teenagers.

He was 16 when they had their, their first kid.

And then their kid obviously was 16 when they had their, when they had theirs.

And, and yes, we used to just take the piss out of him all the time.

With having kids later, I think is, is that you've got so set in your own ways and this is how I do things and this is my time that actually that, that transition to suddenly having to prioritize somebody else above everything is, is I think way harder than if you've only had a few years of it because you only just left home.

See, I'm not suggesting 16 year olds need to go and be doing it.

But yeah, that's my friends at 30 and.

Well, one friend had her children at 21.

But the problem that she had.

No one else had children.

We didn't actually really care, to be honest.

We.

We barely saw her children.

We barely saw her.

And she was probably going through real postpartum depression because no one really cared.

You know, we were 20.

Why wouldn't.

I was going out.

Other people were at uni, people weren't interested.

I was 30 and I was the first.

But I quickly, they quickly caught up with me.

You know, I was just about.

It sort of happens as soon as one or two started.

Yeah.

So I think 38 answer for my life.

Because then you go, well, I might as well just get on with it.

And that's why then I had the second and they all started having a second having children together.

Yeah.

Or is that though.

But they.

Well, I mean there's a lot of, there's a lot of.

There's a lot of parallels.

There is like wildfire.

Yeah, there is a lot of wildfire.

That's better.

But once you've kind of got one Then you have another one.

Because, you know, why not?

Like, it isn't that hard to go from one to two, to be honest.

Like, she.

My second is just, like, the easiest child.

Like, I'm just like, stop dying.

What's.

Whereas with my boy, I was like, he's crying.

He must be.

Is he.

Can he breathe?

You know, I definitely imagine she's all right.

I only have one, but I can imagine that.

That the second you just know what you're doing.

And when I look back at this, sort of.

I remember when he was born was like, how am I gonna shower?

And then I would take the monitor into the shower and have literally a 30 second.

Whereas now I'd be like, well, she smiled.

Oh, he'd be fine.

Yeah.

I just used to just leave her in the bouncer.

I'd put the bouncer in the door, and she would be screaming her head off.

And I'd be handing her.

I'll be like, lather it up.

Listen, hon, I've got to wash my hair.

She'd just be screaming.

And it gets.

The more there are, the worse that get.

Yeah.

And after you.

I mean, I've talked to people who have, you know, like, my wife is fifth out of seven.

Yeah.

And you talk to her parents, and they're like, yeah.

By about the fourth one, you're just kind of like, they'll be fine.

I hope that one looks.

And the other ones will look after that a little bit.

And, you know, and you just kind of like, are they dead now?

They're okay?

Oh, they are.

They seem to be breathing.

And they.

Yeah.

And they, like, you know, they did the thing and I.

I saw.

I saw an Instagram post about this.

Someone was talking about.

They're like, oh, you know how I have trouble getting my kids to bed and whatever.

And I.

You know, I don't know what to do.

And they're like, just go to bed.

Yeah.

Like, leave them.

That's what I do.

They were like, second.

I just.

It's like, I shut the door, leave them, and I say, go to bed.

And when my little boy, now, at 3, says things to me like, but, Mommy, this.

I say, listen, it's bedtime.

I turn the light off.

I love you very much.

Good night.

And he's like, but I won't.

Sorry.

Goodbye.

And I just left the room.

I don't.

I haven't got time for this anymore.

You know, Like.

Whereas I used to kind of like, oh, bless him, but.

See you, Kate.

It.

So you're.

You feel a little Bit to me.

Like the old school period.

Yeah.

Which is definitely am.

Children revolve around the parents, parents don't revolve around the children.

And again, that's a whole nother thing we could dig into.

That's a whole nother hour discussion.

But I think at some point, somewhere between, I don't know, the 80s and maybe early 90s to now, it very much seems to me that a lot of parents like they just revolve their lives around the kids.

Whereas when I grew up, if my mom wanted to go out, I went with her and if she wanted to go out and have drinks with her friends, you'd be cornered.

She went to the bar and I was in the pub and I would fall asleep, you know.

But it does some, but not nearly as much.

So you get all these.

I have friends who have children the same age as my son, who's 3, who have still not yet been out of an evening because their child needs them to soothe them to sleep at bedtime.

Often they wake up in a start about 9 or 10 o'clock.

So they have not for one day been out of an evening with.

And actually what happens is yet the child is probably going to cry in that.

But if you leave them a couple of times, they then learn, mum comes not alone.

Exactly.

Comes back, someone's at home, there's an.

Adult at home giving them the opportunity to love that you come back for them.

We're not actually just leaving them completely on their own and suggesting maybe with their father, you know, someone else responsible, some human.

Not the four year old.

No, I'm not going.

You'll be all right in there, won't you?

Yeah.

That's the third or fourth one.

That's the third or fourth, yes.

He was like, lock the doors, don't answer to anyone.

They'll be fine if I just lock them in the house.

I'm sure they can't get into too much trouble.

They'll be all right.

We're only going to be gone for three hours.

Brilliant.

Awesome.

Thank you very much for your time.

I think that was just a fun chat, for sure.

We could.

I'm sure we could continue to chat for another hour or so, but I'm conscious you've got really good.

You've got actual work today, so we can't sit around and just chat all day.

But yeah, thank you very much for your time.

It's been fun.

And this will be out Saturday, so I'll put it out Saturday morning.

Amazing.

And yeah, it'll be around and Then, yeah, maybe we'll come back another time and talk about finances.

Because I think the finances discussion, I do think that warrants its own discussion.

And if we can find a couple of people that do it in different ways, I think that would be interesting as well.

Not just for women, but for men and women, I think for couples.

And if we can find.

Well, I'll ask around a single parent.

Perspective on it because that brings a whole new dimension to it.

Yes, well, yeah, that's a different ballgame when there isn't a team.

So.

Yeah, well, there's one account.

That's it.

Well, we just have one account.

Be myself for that.

It makes it much easier in here.

Me and my son have one account.

Yeah, but it is Matt, I can't believe.

And when I said that I knew someone that did this, they said to me, oh yeah, my mother and father in law do exactly the same thing.

And I'm like, what?

These people in their 70s doing this who are really splitting everything, they go to Sainsbury, to be fair, if they're.

The 70s, still married, maybe it's worked for them.

Here is the thing.

So who are we to say it doesn't work?

It's.

But I think no one teaches you this.

You know, me and my husband, when we bought our house, we both earned the same money.

We set up a joint account, we put in the same amount, we paid our mortgage, but that was our only thing that was a problem, you know, so we knew what the mortgage was.

And as time went over, we thought, okay, look, let's put the food bill in that account.

Let's put the gas, the electric, let's put all that in, let's work out how much it costs.

And then put the same in each.

Then he quickly overtook me financially and I was like, listen, Buck, I've got no money at the end of the month because I'm paying all these bills.

And you're sitting there going, I'm gonna put a thousand pound in my eyes.

Gonna split it, then you can do it as percentage.

So that's what we then did.

Then I said, okay, listen, I've.

I'm like struggling to afford my brunch money.

And you're putting it all in your savings?

Yeah, I think you should pay more.

And he was like, okay, fair enough.

Yeah.

So then he put in like 70 or something and I put in like 30%, which was lovely.

And then, yeah, then when we had children, it was like, okay, so you're going to cover all of this?

Because I've Got nothing.

Yeah.

And there's, there's another interesting wrinkle that my wife and I are going through at the minute, which is actually she's earning a lot more than I am because I'm messing around with this company, trying to get it off the ground.

You're drinking coffee.

Because I'm sitting around talking about how to make money and talking about how to make money with the ladies.

But yeah, no.

So she's feeling the pressure massively now, which is a really interesting sort of, you know, in our relationship that's a total 180, quite a flip side dynamic, isn't it?

And she feels a lot of pressure on herself because she's like, well, for, you know, 15, 16 years, you, you were the only, pretty much the only person bringing any money in, Sean, is.

That my husband felt huge pressure financially when I was at home with the children.

And I felt huge pressure emotionally of looking after their, his, his needs.

And I would be going, you don't understand how hard my day has been.

He has been awful.

He's been crying, he wouldn't nap, he's got this, he's got that.

You know, he'd be sick, he'd be poorly, I'd be stressed, I'd be worrying about his jabs, worrying about, you know, I had to worry about everything in the household, which was a big burden.

But he felt all this financial pressure and he then would snap and say, if I lose my job, we've got nothing.

You know, I have to work hard, I've got to spend time in the office.

I can't just.

There are definitely two sides to it.

And I think that, that teamwork, communication, which can fall down when you've got the sleepless nights, the new child, all that, it kind of needs to be done beforehand.

Yeah, certainly with, with my partner, we didn't do any of that discussion or how is this actually going to work financially, practically, emotionally.

And I think that's where it all breaks down because there are two actually very good arguments.

But, but I think under the pressure, you can't see those.

You can only see where you're at.

Yeah.

And this gets back to the very original bit, which is, I think what happens is, is that people discount the emotional cost versus the financial cost.

So the, like.

You're absolutely right.

Generally, traditionally, men go out, they provide, you know, they're bringing in the money, they provide for the family, women are taking care of it during the day.

And I think again, societally, I think people recognize the financial pressure to provide.

But they don't appreciate fully the other side of that equation.

Whoever stays home, their emotional needs.

They're changing.

They're learning.

You know, they're learning to walk, they're learning to talk, and they.

They've got a lot of feelings at that time.

And it's.

It's hard.

Which, frankly, is why women should do that, in my opinion, again.

But I'm.

Because we're nurturers.

You're nurturers and you're the emotional side.

Some men will be my household too.

Some men will be somewhat like, okay, I get it.

I think that there'll be someone.

Generally speaking, though, and this is why I.

I also think.

And I'm very traditional and, and don't yell at me.

Gray, I'm not gonna yell at you.

But I'm just gonna let you know that I have got a.

I know you do.

I know you do.

And we've gone on.

I know you do.

But I think it's important to have both parents involved because men and women are equal, but they're different.

And what we teach our kids are different things.

Yeah.

And women are the emotional side.

That's where the children get the emotion, the empathy, all that sort of stuff.

A lot of the communication.

Because women are generally better at that than men.

And men teach a different.

Maybe the resilience and some other stuff and maybe some assertiveness and other things that they don't get from maybe traditionally women.

Some.

Everyone's going to kill me in the comments, but I.

So actually I'm going to agree with the point.

And it doesn't necessarily need to be men and women, but I think the two dynamics that parents can ideally bring is.

Is that you're going to get.

Because regardless of it's man, woman, woman, woman, man, whatever, they're going to be slightly different to each other because they're different people.

You're going to get the one that's maybe a bit.

Bit overnight, she's like, oh, oh, you've hurt your knee and you're going to be the one who's maybe more like heal it up.

And that's what you need.

And I think that balance is important.

So I do agree with you to an extent.

I think maybe we just don't necessarily need to gender stereotype.

Although I agree with you that there are some.

Some we can generalize a bit again, but people that fall outside of the box.

Well, that's a whole nother topic because there's some really interesting research on that.

That as well.

So there's.

There is some actual data on the results of, of parents, single parents, dual parents, single sex parenting.

Right.

And, and stuff like that.

And there's been long term studies now about the results and what that means for children down the line and stuff like that.

So there's some really interesting research to talk about that.

But again we don't have to fascinate.

I mean this, this is a whole new podcast and that's out.

Yeah, I know we've now.

But just on what you were saying before about all of the emotional things that you were feeling and most of the things you said were related to kind of the upbringing of the child.

But potentially there's a layer there also that I don't think there's many women that have had kids that haven't gone through this of where have I gone?

And that's maybe sitting beneath all of the practical stuff.

But there's that emotional of like, especially if there isn't this kind of value given to looking after kids of who am I now?

What, where's my worth?

What have I become?

And you become Jack, Jack's mom or you know, or Vinnie's mum.

You, you completely lose your identity.

And I think that that is, that can be really cute.

That weighs really heavy.

Day to day.

You feel like I've not even washed my hair, I've not brushed my teeth.

I have just been a slave to these children.

And then you've finished work and you're tired.

Well, I think we've already agreed that was on us because we were washing our hair while they cried.

But only with the second.

The first one, I would be going, he'd be attached to me.

I was running around the house with him in a sling all bloody day.

I'm painting her nails.

Well, the second one, she is just fine.

She's just.

I don't know what she's doing most of the time.

Busy.

Probably painting on the walls, doing some lust to her.

She's doing someone's social media probably.

Yeah.

She's super smart.

Probably because I've just let her learn.

I just talked to her like she's an adult and she walks back to.

Me like an adult now.

There you go.

Luck with that branch.

Thanks.

Thank you so much.

You already said goodbye, but bye again.

Goodbye again.

And you could have this back.

You remain unscathed.

Ra La.