Who Are You When the Work Is Gone?

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. I have spent years in conversation with people who are successful by every measure and still quietly restless, not broken, not lost, just aware somewhere underneath the noise that there is a version of their life that feels more honest, more grounded, more genuinely theirs. This podcast exists for those people, for the ones who are done performing and ready to go deeper.

0:54 My name is Dr. Doug. Welcome to Inspire Vision. I am glad you are here. Chip, welcome. Dr. Daga, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you very much. Oh, and I'm really excited, as we were just chatting a little bit before. Your focus has become so similar and analogous to what I am so focused on now that I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I'd love for you to kind of share with the audience your background very quickly, talk a little bit about your book that you've written, and then... We'll get into all of the other topics that we want to talk about. Yeah, you know, it's funny because I've kind of defined myself differently these days than I have. I've spent the last 30 years as an executive coach and a facilitator and a speaker and all those kind of things. But now I really call myself an author, a speaker, and a craftsperson. You can see behind me a whole bunch of different wooden objects. Those are all things that I've made. Wow.

1:59 I love woodturning. In fact, I was just out finishing a couple of Christmas ornaments while we were waiting for time to speak. I think when you become a coach and you start to have some of your own thoughts and you read pretty broadly and you read all the great people, the John Maxwells and the Stephen Coveys and that, you start to get your own idea. And that led to writing a book, which is Small Decisions, Big Shifts. That came out in October of last year. Took me 10 years to write it. And there's a story that goes along with that, but I'll save that for another time.

2:45 And I'm You know, I was so thoroughly enjoying the writing process that I wrote another one. It took me about a month and a half to write it. And that one was Every Dog Has His Day. That came out in March of this year. And I just kept going. It took me about six months to write another one called Handoffs, which is about family business. That's coming out in October of this year. And I'm working on another one for next year. Oh, that's fantastic. So you know what's always interesting? Here you have this major business orientation that you've done for years. I had a dental practice for 21 years before neurological situations eliminated that. But what I find interesting is the journey that people are on, particularly as I have an opportunity to visit with them like this, and to see how that journey has changed their life to the point that they're doing now what they're doing. So for instance, what you're doing now is so different, I think, from what you used to do. What was your journey?

3:54 What happened? And how did that change take place? Was it gradual? Was it sudden? Well, I was, I was a big company guy, you know, so I worked for Del Monte, which at the time was an independent company, but it ended up selling to RJ Reynolds while I was working for them, selling beans and corn and ketchup in Charlotte and Atlanta, left them, ended up in the air freight business and was selling for them in Atlanta, got promoted to a district manager position in Tampa. And then got promoted again and sent to Los Angeles. Talking about quite the cultural shock to go from Tampa, Florida to Los Angeles. I'd grown up in Chicago, so big cities weren't that much of a mystery to me. But my wife and kids had a difficult transition with the culture. But along the way, I ended up working for a company called BFI. It was a trash company at the time. And, you know, it's funny because all of the companies that I worked for don't exist in their same form today.

5:04 Yeah. Yeah, most of them are gone. But in May of 98, I got laid off. And BFI was going to sell. We didn't know it at the time, but they were going to sell about six months later. And they were getting rid of all the people who knew where the bodies were buried. So, you know, I was a lobbyist. And I'd been a lobbyist for 10 years. So I got laid off and I called my wife and I said, hey, guess what? I'd got the package. And she said, great. She said, so what do you want to do? And I said, I know a couple of things. I know I don't want to do it here. And I don't want to work for anybody else. And I want to hang my own shingle. And she said, OK, let's figure it out. So we spent about a year. We came back to North Carolina. We started building a house, went back to L.A., took temporary permanent jobs, and made our plans to move. And so in July of 99, we moved to North Carolina. We moved in a 19-foot travel trailer with five cats, two dogs, and three humans.

6:15 Wow. Yeah. That's another story. Spent a month and a half on the road coming from the West Coast to the East Coast. In fact, we put her feet in the Pacific in Santa Monica and put them in the Atlantic outside of Charleston, South Carolina. Just had a great time. And we got back here and then all of a sudden we had to figure out what we wanted to do. you know, my wife and I didn't have a job. Um, we had a grown daughter that was, uh, that was with us as well. And, you know, um, my wife started a business, I started a business and here we are almost 30 years later. Um, I, I don't think the business is the same today as it was when I started out. Certainly I, you know, I, I wanted to be a, um, a platform speaker, you know, somebody who speaks for a living and, and, uh, And I found out that that is just a lonely job. You know, you get all kinds of love when you're on stage for two hours. And in fact, I heard a comedian talk about this because it's the same thing as being a comedian. You go on stage and you do your set or you do your motivational speech and you walk off stage and people are applauding and, you know, buying you drinks and that. And then you go back to your hotel room and eat bad food and wait for your plane. And that's it. And I didn't want that life for myself. I wanted relationships. I wanted to make relationships.

7:47 And that's where I found coaching. And so that helped. Well, and, you know, that's so interesting. I've really been focusing for a number of years, but more recently developed a program called the 4D Personal Portraits. And it goes to talking about what you were just sharing is that, you know, so often we find ourselves doing things because we've been told this is what we need to do. You know, for me, five boys, one daughter in our family. And my dad basically was a classical voice teacher for university and, you know, nationally known. But his comment to us was, you will not go into teaching.

8:31 You will all become professionals. And for the most part, we did. And, you know, it's interesting how we, quote, become what we've been taught to become in so many times. And then later on in life, for whatever reason, when things happen, all of a sudden we find ourselves in a much more enjoyable and peaceful experience. I know my daughter was going for her Ph.D. In sociology. And she was at the master's degree and had a whole program ready to go into the PhD. And she said, Dad, I'm not sure I feel that way. And of course, we had done this analysis for her. And it was like, you know, when you look at this, this is not who you are. And so she finished her master's, went on and is doing something entirely different. And you know, it sounds like exactly for you, too. You know, you were doing what you were doing, doing it very well.

9:32 But here you are now doing something that my impression is you absolutely love. And as you say, you know, speaking was so dramatically attractive. And yet when you realized that's not what I really want to do, and you had the ability to understand that within yourself, it's so fascinating that you're able to do that. And As you work with people, how often do you find that they are doing what they've been told to do or becoming what they've been told to become from childhood on versus becoming who they truly are, which then resonates and they find that their work is no longer work, but it's just enjoyment.

10:18 I'll answer that in two ways. One is my dad was the consummate salesman. He was an incredible salesperson. And that's the that's the place that I grew up is is he was a salesman sometimes on the road, but mostly it was, you know, being around. He didn't start traveling till we were junior high, high school. And so I just want to be like my dad, you know? Yeah. And I came out of school in 78. The recession was in full bloom then. And so I got a job selling. And, you know, it's not necessarily that I knew what I wanted to do. It's just what I was expected to do. The second way I'll answer that is that I work with a number of family businesses and multi-generational family business. There is an expectation that you will go into the business. And so many of the people that I deal with have been working in the business since they were six or eight years old. They were working on the dock or, you know, these are logistics business, trucking business, but they've been working. they've been working in the business since they were kids and they were, they were surrounded by the business and, you know, they were, they were in that soft, warm embrace, you know, of, of being in the business. And now they're 70 years old and still in the business, still running the business and they don't know what the hell to do. Yeah. Um, I, because, okay, selling it would be painful. Um, although a number of, uh,

11:49 of people that I've known have, have done that. Uh, but selling the business is tough and, and, uh, um, Handing it off is tough. The book that I've got coming out is about a family business that there's an intergenerational handoff that has to happen, doesn't happen, and then there's some things that happen about that. And so much of their identity is wrapped up in what they do. And they just can't imagine that. what it'd be like not to be able to do that anymore. Um, and so, and so they hold on and they create all kinds of hell for, for their kids and for the families of their kids. And, um, you know, I've, I've just seen so many situations where, um, where, where the kids can't come over to Thanksgiving because, you know, they've, they've gotten at odds with the old man. Um, I had one situation where, uh, um, It just, it was a mess.

12:51 And the kid ended up getting fired and then starting a business and started stealing employees. And again, Thanksgiving was not a good time for that family. Well, it can become such a mess. And yet at the same time, what I have found, and for me, it took decades to get to the point where I am now. And I'm still on that journey. I'm not even where I really want to be, I'm sure. But what's interesting is how much that self-talk, that external talk from family, from society, from school, from religion, whatever it happens to be, really affects the decisions we make. And then those decisions ultimately create the life we're experiencing, which so often is not what we want to experience. And in the case you're just sharing, it's very dramatic. But I think for many people, that experience is just something just doesn't feel right or there's some stress or something's going on that they're just not as happy and at peace as they could be. And so talk a little bit about that, how those assumptions, how the self-talk really affects our outcome and experience in life.

14:09 A friend of mine, a guy named Art Blanchford, he also runs a podcast, Life in Transition, if you ever get a chance to listen. He's a brilliant guy. And he wrote something recently that I thought was amazing, and I'm going to butcher it. But it was, retirement is not the time to figure out what your life was for. Think about that. Retirement is not the time. If you are waiting for retirement to figure out what your purpose is, it's not going to be good. And so, you know, I was lucky. I was really lucky. And I say that in kind of a weird way. My parents died early.

14:56 My dad died when he was 51. My mom died when she was 56. I was 30 years old and I was an orphan. And so I didn't have the parental expectations to live up to anymore. But it was a slow motion, not living up to the expectations. And so I ended up in lobbying, not in sales. I guess lobbying is sales. But I ended up in my own business, which is something I don't think my dad could ever think about doing anymore. you know, I don't ever think he even considered it. My grandfather was a, was an entrepreneur from way back. I mean, he was a realtor most of his life and, uh, and, you know, just love to, uh, to do deals. And, um, hell, my grandfather used to trade houses like some people trade cars.

15:46 In fact, he traded cars like some people trade cars. And, uh, you know, he was, He was incredible. My dad got the car trading bug from him, but he didn't get the house trading bug, thank goodness. But my grandparents, they moved 28 times in the time they were married, in the 52 years they were married. Yeah, it was crazy. So I really didn't have those expectations. And that allowed me to be freer than it might have to try something new. I don't know. In retrospect, you can think anything, but that's what it seems. Well, and you know, it's interesting. As I've been focusing on this, what I realize is there's, in my mind, at least three sets. There may be more that you can think of, but The first set is that young person who's just graduating from high school, ready to go out into the world and try to figure out what on earth, what kind of profession does he want to go into or what kind of work, whatever that happens to be. Does he want to go to school, not go to school? And he really doesn't know.

16:53 And all he has or she has is what the influences have been all of those years. So you've got that person trying to figure it out. which, you know, in my mind, prevention is so much better than trying to fix it later on. But then you have the midlife people who are in a job, you know, and they're doing what they thought, whatever choices they made to be doing that. And yet they're really not happy at their job and what they're doing. But the fear of changing jobs entirely is so overwhelming that they just continue to live in that or You have the person who either, like myself, was a forced retirement, which I really didn't retire, or they get to an age where now they're retired, and all of a sudden, the kids are gone, the work is gone, and what do I do? So you've got those three sets of people that I think have a similar type of challenge and really don't know how to figure it out. And obviously, that's one of the things I do. But I want your opinion on that and thoughts on that.

18:02 And there are two things. Thoreau said that we all live lives of quiet desperation. Yes. Which I think is extremely poignant in the example that you pointed out. The second thing is that we are rarely the architects of our own change. I often think about this. If I'd stayed in LA, if my wife and I had stayed in LA and raised the kids out there, would I have gone into my own business? Well, probably not. I probably would have done more of the same of what I was doing. But I got laid off. And it gave me the opportunity to say, the hell with it. I mean, I had a year's worth of income.

18:46 I had You know, we had a West Coast house, which, you know, is worth a lot more in the South than it is in the West Coast. And and so we had options and we decided to take those options and completely reinvent. I mean, just, you know, going twenty five hundred miles away from all of your contacts and all of your friends and all the people that you've built up relationships with over a 13 year span, you know, is, you know, it's scary to a lot of people. Oh, it is. And then there's the pull of family. So, you know, if your family is all in New England, my wife's family is all in New England, she'll always be a New England girl. And even though we live away from there, I mean, when we got to California, we had a rough getting there. We got into LAX. There were like three 747s of Koreans that let out at the same time.

19:43 And so baggage claim was a cluster, and then we had all the car dings, and we're trying to get all our bags and dogs and all this other kind of stuff and so we're driving to the Santa Clarita Valley which is two mountain ranges past Los Angeles LAX as we top the second mountain range we run up across a pickup truck an old Ford pickup truck that has on the bumper sticker says, welcome to California, now go home. And my mature, rational wife bursts into tears and says. I want my mother. And so it was as far away from New England as she'd ever been. But we had made that break already.

20:30 But if you have never made that break, if you're sitting in Decatur, Illinois, or Traverse City, Michigan, or Columbus, Ohio, and you've never been out of there, and your whole family is there, you might see things a little bit differently. That makes it harder to get out either. It makes it harder. And one of the thoughts, and after my dental practice, I went back to business school. So I started working with small businesses as a consultant. Where was your dental practice? In Palm Springs. Oh, okay. Oh, good. Good. So anyway, well, Chicago and then Palm Springs. So I grew up in Chicago also. But anyway.

21:10 Okay, so you got to stop. Where in Chicago did you grow up? Wilmette. Okay, I grew up in Wheaton. Okay, all right. So anyway, I. Went from there to doing the consulting and so forth for years and different locations. So I moved houses. But ultimately, I found that that still wasn't satisfying. And so I am where I am now, which has been an interesting journey. But the one thing that I think about for people who are they don't necessarily have the ability to change jobs. And as you and I were talking before we started the podcast, you talked about what you have behind you, all the woodwork that you do. And I'm sure that if we were to do that analysis that I do, the personal portrait for you, we would find that there's that artistic aspect to you that you naturally do. And I want your opinion on this because I think there's a lot of people that may be listening and thinking, you know, I'm in a job that I just can't, I can't change.

22:19 I can't afford to do that. I don't have the ability to do that at this point in time. And yet how valid and valuable would it be for them to find and discover what are those true motivators? What are those true purposes and motivators for them that they could start doing that and fulfilling those needs and quote, on the side, you know, for instance, if you were still in the situation you were in and you were not happy, and yet you had the ability to take time to do your woodwork, which you absolutely love, what a difference that would make. And in my mind, it would actually start to minimize that discomfort of that midlife situation because now they're able to do, it's not an either or, it's a both and situation.

23:09 So that, all right, work is work, but that's not my purpose. That's not my motivator other than to, you know, provide for the family or for myself. But here's what I love doing and taking the time to start doing that in their lives. What are your thoughts on that? First of all, where'd you go to school? Northwestern University. Oh, Northwestern. I went to Illinois Westland and we actually had a... a walkout from our fraternity and we went to Northwestern for, uh, for the weekend and we caused all kinds of hell. But, uh, anyway, um, I love Northwestern. It's great, great campus. Did you go there for a dental school as well?

23:49 Yeah, it was dental school. So I was downtown in Chicago. Uh, and you know, ultimately the medical people had more power. And they ended up eliminating the dental. School about three years after I graduated. But, uh, Anyway, yeah, I was downtown Chicago for dental school, but obviously I lived up in the North Shore. Yes, and? So, you know, I'll answer that in a couple of ways. My motivators changed. So when I was lobbying, and I use an instrument called driving forces, and it's the 12 driving forces, and it's created and sold by a company called TTI. Um, my driving forces were altruistic, which was helping other people without any thought of, of remuneration. Um, and it was commanding, which is you got to lead, you got to win, you got to compete. So I was very competitive and I wanted to help people. My resourceful was really low. So resourceful was, is all about the money. Um, um, I got out of my own business and I would have starved if I kept the same motivator. So over time, my motivators changed and I got real comfortable with asking people for money and I got real comfortable putting dollars in the bank account. And I remember when my motivator shifted and I showed my wife and she looked at me and said, my work here is done. So your motivators can change over time

25:20 and that goes along with your comment about about how you get into something, you know, maybe a hobby or something that, that can change the way you think about that. Um, my mother-in-law was, uh, was a dear sweet woman. She died 12 days shy of 98. Um, she died in my easy chair in my wife's arms. It was, it was pretty incredible. And, uh, um, and she was a craftsperson and that's, that's why I described myself as a craftsman at this, as this point, because, uh, um, The craft is just as important to me as the author and the speaker and other things. And all she wanted, I had a stroke 14 years ago and that got me into the lathe. And my wife bought me a lathe for Christmas and I hadn't turned anything since I was in junior high. And I started turning things and I fell in love. My mother-in-law had always wanted me to be useful. She wanted me to do something useful.

26:18 And before the stroke, I was working way too many hours. I was spending 200 nights a year in a hotel and that kind of thing. It was just, you know, it was unsustainable ultimately. And it led to having a stroke. Before the stroke, you know, my wife and I played golf on Sundays and the rest of the time I was working. That all changed. And her idea of being useful took over. And so when I talk about retirement as a poor time to think about your purpose, that really helped me center on my purpose. And my purpose is I live to develop people. So that's what I do when I get up in the morning is I help people. I'm not worried about, you know... what particular problem they're dealing with. I want to help them deal with their problems better. That's what I help them do. And, oh, by the way, I teach woodturning. And I am the president of the North Carolina Woodturners Association. Believe me, it's a whole lot more prestigious, or it's a whole lot less prestigious than it sounds. But anyway, you know, it's what I do. And that makes me useful.

27:31 And that makes you happy. And that makes me happy. Yes. Yes. And, you know, I know one of the areas that you talk about is identity. And, you know, in my mind, and again, I use a different analysis than you use, but it gets into the fact that, you know, we have different identities. There's that identity of who we truly are, which most of the time has been lost since we were eight years old. You know, you have the identity of who I need to be. And then you kind of have the conscious identity of combining all those together and here's who. I am now. And yet, you know, when we tie that identity to our work or to a title, you know, where the ego starts to play, you know, and Buddha talks about this a lot, about how the fact that, you know, we attach ourselves to things and that's what helps us to become important in our own minds. And so talk a little bit about what your thoughts are about the identity and what happens when they're so tied to things that are not necessarily who they truly are innately.

28:44 It's a great question. So in your experience, what have you. You know, what I have found is that so often, and I get a little bit theological here because that is part of my life, But what I find is that if we were to understand that internally, we are divine beings. And, you know, whatever religion you happen to belong to, it doesn't have to be one or the other. But the reality is, is that for the most part, there's that goodness within us. And that's who we are. And we can discover over time, and oftentimes it's a journey, what our purpose of Being here. In life is.

29:24 And as you say, for you to helping people, for me too, it's the same thing. And yet that identity is so often lost because of childhood impressions and all the stuff that goes on to where now we're living an identity. that is someone else's. It's our parents, it's our religions, it's our society. And when we're doing that, that's where you start to see people frustrated, depressed, anxious, and oftentimes they don't even know why. But the reality is, is that they are not being true to who they truly are. And so in my mind, the ability to slowly, and I say it is a slow journey, to return back to who they are and to start to identify that over a period of time and start to take all of those impressions and imprints in their lives and recognize consciously that that, hey, they're there. And in many cases, it's been very positive what it has done for them.

30:31 But ultimately, be aware and conscious enough that, okay, here's this, and this serves a good purpose here. But the reality is, that's. Not who I am. You know, my big house is not who I am. My nice car is not who I am. Or the fact that I don't have a house is not who I am. Or whatever that happens to be, who I am is something that is so unique, divine, and purposeful. And it's just a matter of getting back to understanding that. And then as you say, and as you described, then all of a sudden, you can start to develop those other motivators, you can start to develop all those other talents to become and to then take that innate foundation, and then become who you were meant to become.

31:19 You know, Wayne Dyer said, I love this quote, is that we're not human beings having a spiritual experience. We're spiritual beings having a human experience. And I love that quote. And so I think there is a bit of the divine there. I also think that reinventing yourself is, you know, it's a tricky business. And I'm lucky that it turned out all right. But I was one of those kind of people that, was going to make a turnout, right. No matter what, you know, um, I was failure is not an option was a, was a great saying of mine. Um, and, uh, and I, you know, look, we fail a thousand times every day. Um, but, uh, um, but, in the grand scheme of things, I was not going to fail. However, I think it's really important. So one of the things that I talk about in Small Decisions, Big Shifts is I've got a five C's framework. And the five C's framework is context, clarity, conditioning, choice, and character. Context is being aware of your surroundings, being aware of who you are, and being really gut level honest about who you are and what your strengths are. Clarity is being certain in no uncertain terms what you want. And the problem with that is most people have no clue what they want.

32:41 Exactly. Exactly. They can tell you what they don't want, but they can't tell you what they want. And I think it's so important. And I always do this. I always ask my coaching clients and everybody else. So if you had to define success for me, what is success to you? What are the five or six things that make up success for you? So I'll ask you the question. What are the five or six things that make up success for you? Well, for me, it's making a difference in people's lives. That's the one thing, and supporting my family, being a good parent and grandparent to my children and grandchildren. But I'm at that point in time in life where I've been blessed enough that I'm able to really focus on that and be retired. And even here in this community, and it's very frustrating for me in Thailand, I don't speak Thai.

33:34 It's one of the most difficult languages to learn. And yet I'm among people who I see are, you know, on the surface, very happy. And many times because of the culture of Buddhism, they live a life that is just so unique from what we experienced in the US. And yet at the same time, I know that they have those needs. And my desire would be to be able to do that. And It's a challenge. And, you know, I speak with my wife who is Thai and, you know, have her kind of help me with that. But the reality is those are the things I desire to do now is really, you know, make a difference in other people's lives. I no longer have that ego of the big house and all of this. And, you know, who am I based on my possessions? I want to be comfortable. No question about that. But I live in a very small home. And, you know, my kids can't believe that I'm doing that, but I am. And, you know, for me, it's just like, how do I make a difference in people's lives? And and quite frankly, I think that that is ultimately something that we probably all desire.

34:41 To do in one way or the other. And yet oftentimes we get so busy in life that we don't figure out how to do that. Doug, I've asked that question a thousand times. I have never heard the big boat or the big house or the big car or, you know, trips to Europe or anything like that. I always hear a great family and make a difference. And, you know, financial freedom always comes up or financial stability. It always comes up. But I never hear the great career or the corner office or that kind of thing, which leads me to believe a couple of things. One is that if you determine, if you understand that your long-term vision of success are those things as being happy and a great family and a good grandparent and a good parent, etc., good husband, etc., then, then all of a sudden everything else just kind of fades away. And it, if you, if you focus on those things, those are all lifetime goals. You know, you're not, you're not 20 anymore, but 20 year olds say the same thing. Yeah. And, And, you know, at 20, your definition may be different than it is at 70, but that's going to change. And so I, you know, I build a system in there that changes along with that.

36:07 It's called waypoints. But the bottom line is, is that. You don't check a box when you're 40 and say, I'm happy. I don't need to worry about that anymore. You know, what makes you happy at 40 doesn't make you happy at 50 and 60 and 70 and so on. So, you know, but the goal doesn't change. The goal of I want to be happy. Yeah. I want to be a good grandparent. I want to make a difference. That doesn't change. Because I'm sure when you were in a dental practice, you made a difference in a lot of people's lives. You know, just think of the dentistry that you did and how people have better smiles, less pain and that kind of stuff. So, you know, you were making a difference. You may not have been able to say that at the time, but you were still making a difference. Does that make any sense?

36:56 It makes a huge amount of sense. And as you say, You know, those innate desires are always there. And yes, we accomplish those in different ways. And you're absolutely right. Depending on the time in our lives, we might change how we are accomplishing that. But the reality is if we can discover that, and I think that becomes the key, and we're running out of time. We could go on for hours. But the key is that if we can discover that, And then make sure that we are literally applying that in whatever we happen to be doing. That changes that sense of peace and self and joy in our lives.

37:40 And I think that's what's amazing. So anyway, how do people find you? How do they find your books? Amazon, shoalsandassociates.com is my website. You can put that in the show notes. And I'm also, the books are on a number of different audiobook platforms as well. OK, perfect. And what would be your final message to the audience today? Don't be afraid of change. I guess that's that's a great thing. But, you know, one of the things that I have been really strong at over the years is being curious. And I love the Walt Whitman quote, be curious, not judgmental, because if you stay curious, it keeps you young. And when you stay curious, you can make different decisions.

38:22 You can get different information. And that makes all the difference. Wonderful. And you're right. Curiosity is one of the key factors in someone having a wonderful life. So, Chip, thanks so much. This has been an amazing conversation. And like I say, we could probably go on for hours on this stuff. That's right. We could. Thank you, Doug. It's been absolutely marvelous. And, you know, not every day I talk to somebody from Thailand. Well, yeah, thank you. And folks, thanks for listening. I hope you got something out of this. And this is Dr. Doug. And because I'm in Thailand, I've learned to say namaste. Namaste. Every conversation on this podcast eventually comes back to that same question, not how do I get more, but is this actually who I am? If something you heard today moved you just a little closer to an honest answer, that is enough.

39:16 I'm Dr. Doug. This is Inspire Vision. Until next time.