The Skills You Never Learned for the Marriage You Always Wanted – with Raffi Bilek

0:00 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services. Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. At the end of the day, it's not about what you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up, who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.

0:43 Denzel Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Raffi, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Hey, you know, your background is really interesting because it seems like, as I've interviewed a number of people, you know, here's where they went with their education, here's the direction they're going, and all of a sudden, they've made a major switch and they're doing something much different. And it looks to me like that's kind of the case for you too, So could you share with the audience your background number one and number two what brought you to this point of writing your book and you can, you know, talk about that a bit and then what you're doing now and helping people with communication.

1:28 So I take it you are alluding to my nerd background. Yes, I was a computer science major and now I talk to people. And the truth is I was always a people person. I just didn't realize it. So, you know, I do like computers, and I do like programming, and I still do some of that. I actually have souped up my own electronic health record system with some of my programming skills. But it just wasn't the same trying to, you know, talk to a computer and talk to people. And after college, I did a job where I talk computers to kids, and the job was talking to people instead of the talking to people being between the jobs. I was like, Wow, this is so much better. So I sort of switched tax and went into human services, and I just I felt much better about it. I eventually got a social work degree, started doing therapy, working with people, and then found that I really resonate working with couples and trying to help people get some happiness in their lives that way and then just suited me really well. So that's how I got to where I am.

2:31 But you know, it's fascinating to me. I'm certified as a behavioral analyst in many of the things that I do, And what fascinates me is somehow we're kind of influenced or motivated to do a certain degree or do a certain thing, and we get there and if it doesn't match our personality, then all of a sudden, we find ourselves really frustrated. And you know, in your case, my daughter had the same thing happened to her. She went into but she went into research social work, and you know, all of a sudden she recognized that, you know what, this is not what I want. I want to be with people because she was, you know, as you are a little bit more in that direction. And so it's fascinating how people start in one direction and if they really start to become aware of how they're feeling about it, they move into a different direction. So you wrote a book, Tell me a little bit about the book, the name of the book, and so forth.

3:31 So it's called The Couple's Communication Handbook. The skills you never learned for the marriage you always wanted. And I really just felt like a lot of the people that I've worked with just don't know what to do or how to do it to connect with their spouse or their partner. And I really felt like that's such an important thing for people to have. You know, there's this great long term study, the Harvard Graham Study, which was really amazing, you know, the biggest longitudinal study ever done, and the head of the study said, the biggest thing that we took from that is that happiness comes from good relationships. And I feel like to help people live their best lives. Helping them get their relationships dialed in, which means being able to talk to somebody else, connect with them, communicate with them, was so important. And through my work with couples, I really found a way that I think resonates with a lot of people and is very actionable and doable. And I just felt so so good to help people get that. I really wanted to spread the message further than I could do on my own self, and so getting this book out there as part of that mission to really help people live their best lives in that way well and you know.

4:39 You talk about communication conversations at this point in time in the US as a brigand nightmare. Nightmare. You know, I wrote an article some time ago, before the current political era about a marriage counselor trying to deal with the gun control debate, which you know, was with a hot topic at the time, trying to bring some of these skills to the broader world. And in the at the end of my book, I talk about expanding beyond just the couple of the diad to go out to the world with a sense of you know, connecting, empathy, communication, and I agree that these skills could make a real difference beyond just you know, one person to one person, but to groups and to the world at large. I really, you know, I just want to make the world a better place man.

5:25 You know, So what happened, I mean, you know, as you say before, a lot of this stuff going on. What happened and what has happened to this communication and conversation. I mean, it's to the point now where it's so separate and so angry, it's just amazing. Yeah. You know, I am not qualified to commentate politically on where we're at, but I think, you know, that has affected couples and families as well. I've seen so many people really get their families get torn apart by political differences, and I think that the skills of communication and empathy and validation could go a long way towards helping people bridge that. You know, I don't have to agree with you, No two people agree on everything, But to be able to connect and to hear somebody else's perspective and accept it as where they're at can make such a difference for people trying to bridge that gap of political, religious identity divides. It can really help people reconnect in that way.

6:29 Oh amen to that. Okay, so kind of reiterate what you just said a little bit for the audience again. Sure, that's a good question. What did I just say. Were we talking about reconnecting families? I think, well, we were really talking about the political state right now of what's going on and the lack of communication or the lack of the ability to communicate and have a reasonable conversation. And you know what I find which is fascinating is anything that applies to couples to families also applies generally to the world, to business, to all of that type of stuff, And so I guess my question was, what what brought about this great divide? What what do you think brought that about? From the time that you had written a little bit about gun control and that type of stuff.

7:27 To this, It's hard to say. It's a lot of different things. You know, again, I am no political analyst. I'm just an armchair politician like the rest of the country. And it's painful. Yeah, how we got here. I think it's just so easy to stay in your own mind and your own self and not think about where others are coming from. You know, why they believe what they believe, why they feel what they feel, and if we were better at reaching out and saying, well, help me understand where you're coming from and why you feel that way. In my book about how that's for me, the three most important words in the marriage, help me understand if I can come from a help me understand perspective like, Okay, you did this, you know you went out and bought that without my without my knowing, or you know, again, you believe this politically, you like that political figure. Help me understand why that is? Why is that important to you?

8:21 That opened up a conversation that is so much different than let me explain to you why you're wrong. That doesn't work in politics, it doesn't work into you know, relationships or parenting. Let me explain to you why you're raising the kids throng. Okay, So, and we're going to go through each of you chapters briefly because I you know, I have them there and you've got what twelve chapters. So that's great. But you almost said something that you caught yourself and corrected. You know what that was? Nope, I don't remember. It was like, why did you do this without my permission? Was kind of your direction and then you corrected yourself. And do you find that that becomes an issue whether it's coming from the woman or the man, you find that there's a patriarch or a matriarchy in relationships where one person kind of is wanting to take control, and if so, what happens with that?

9:20 So we definitely see a lot of that. You know, I think where that came from is I was just thinking about a couple that I saw recently where there were control issues like that. That's not every couple, but there certainly are couples where one person feels entitled to run the show, and that's tough. When you're coming from a place of entitlement, you don't have a lot of empathy, and it's very hard to connect with somebody else because you think that you by default or right, and what's normal for you should be normal for others. And that's really the opposite of how to make a relationship work. So I guess that's where I was coming from and why I drew back from that. You know, if someone needs my permission to do something, that probably indicates I'm not in the right frame of mind to make a good relationship work.

10:03 Well, you know, and that becomes fascinating. You know. You talk about and I want to get into your book because I think as I looked at the chapters and so forth, and I was allowed to at least see your first two. But as we get into that, you've kind of put it in a really nice order of how to develop better relationships with your spouse. And as I say, I think that anything that you talk about that also applies to the general world. But you start with chapter one with time out explain what you mean by that. So I think that's the first thing for most couples that we need to realize is that when you're upset, that is not a good time to talk about anything.

10:46 And again, like you said, that's true for broader issues as well. But when I'm really ramped up, I can't do it well. And that's true for me like it is for anybody. I'm a human being too, And even though I've been teasing communication for a long time, when I'm mad, you know, if I noticed something that i'm that my wife didn't do. You know, she was supposed to take up the trash room and she didn't, I'm annoyed, that's not the time to address it. Because I'm annoyed, I'm irritated. I'm going to come off poorly. If we wait until later, it's going to go so much better. And it's so compelling for people to run right into it. I'm annoyed, you know, you forgot to pick up the milk, you didn't get up with the kids at night, whatever it's going to be, it's so compelling to run right into it and tackle that issue. We have to fix this right now. But the reality is when you're ramped up like that, it doesn't work very well. And so taking a break, taking a time out and coming back to it later works a lot better. And that's what I'm trying to get people to start with.

11:42 Okay, and that, in my mind is a very important aspect. But my question to you, if you get upset with your wife and you know, because she didn't do something, or she gets upset with you because you didn't do anything, that happens all the time, all right, So here's the question. What brought up that emotion and what triggered that emotion in the subconscious that you may not even be aware of. Sure, that's right, It could be anything that they're going all the way back down to some really root issues. It frequently is usually people are not arguing about who have the milk, who didn't have the milk, who got the dry cleaning, you know, But if you forget to get the dry cleaning, that says to me, oh, you don't really care that much about me, right, And so maybe I'm afraid of abandonments, or I'm afraid that nobody cares and I'll be lost to the world. There's always these deeper issues at play, and so taking that break and taking some time to go in, come back to it and say, hey, this bothered me, and then you know, the whole approach that I lay out in the book.

12:42 It enabled us to go deeper and to find out what is underneath that and to really get to the core issues of our relationship, which builds something much stronger than just okay, next time, don't forget the dry clean. And how often you get into those I'm not good enough or I'm being abandoned. How often do you get into that with the individuals and recognize that their emotions, their responses so often have something to do with that. Well, so in when I'm working with them in couples counseling, that's not necessarily where we start. First, we sort of get the tools down and we practice it and we go deeper and deeper. But as things progress, we do get there, and the goal is for them to be able to share that with each other safely, comfortably, securely, and to hear that and to connect around that. Right, if I am worried that I'm unlovable because you didn't get the dry clear, and that you know that reflects to me that I'm unworthy, like that's an important thing.

13:36 I mean that obviously wasn't what you meant? That you think that I'm not worthy of love. You just forgot to get the dry cleaning. But it brings us up for me and to be able to share that and have you hold that and be there with me. It's like this real relationship, that's real connection. Oh amen to that. But I love the time out because, as you say, oftentimes, you know, the first step is to just move away. Hey, I've got to give me a little bit of time here, and for me sometimes I say I need one to two days, So just give me some time here to work this out. Yeah, and you know what, I've got four kids, We're busy. My wife works, I work. Sometimes there's an issue you want to talk about, it takes a couple of days.

14:16 Sometimes I sit on something for weeks. If it's not important or urgent. Well, it's important for you at some point, but I can wait and we'll talk about it some weeks later when there's a little bit of downtime and we say, hey, can you know this thing happened I'd like to talk about. And that's fine. Some things are more urgent, like I need you to take care of this and that has to happen sooner. But people feel very compellable, like in the moment we have to deal with this. That is almost never the right way to go to make something better. All right, So then when you go from there you go into chapter two exploring versus resolving. What's the difference between that? So, right, often, when there's an issue, you want to make the problem go away. Right. You know, I don't like the way that you yell at the kids. Let's talk about how you can do that better. Well, the fact of the matter is maybe you're young at the kids for some good reason. Again, I'm not getting into the parenting strategies right now, but you have a reason for what you're doing. Maybe you know you're out of control, maybe you think that the right thing is to raise your voice, whatever it might be. But if we run right into how do we solve this problem, we are short circuiting all that deeper stuff that you know you brought up, Like there's something deeper going on here. So what I tell people is, first we're going to have a conversation to explore the problem. Let's understand what the problem is. I don't like that you do this. You think I'm too soft on the kids. Let's understand the problem.

15:32 Because you can't solve a problem that you don't understand, But we try to do that all the time. I think, I know what you're thinking, so I'll go and tell you what the solution is. But that rarely gets a solution that actually works. And people their experience bears this out. You know, oh yeah, we've tried to solve as many times and it hasn't worked. You probably haven't fully understood what the problem is well. And when you're working with strong personalities, how do you help them to move from trying to resolve to explore? So often I just point to their own experience and I say, you know, this hasn't worked before. You have tried to solve this problem many times before most people, but by the time they come to couples counseling have tried to deal with whatever problem it is on their own and they see that it doesn't help. And so and also when I say, you know, you can't solve a problem that you don't understand, people kind of recognize that you're right, like, we have to understand this better.

16:25 So helping them slow down, like, let's try to understand it and we'll solve it afterwards. First we're going to explore what the problem is then we'll work on the resolution that works far better. So then you move into speaking to be heard? And what do you mean by that? So often when I tell you what I'm thinking, I'm trying to drill it into your head. You did this wrong, you're doing this. I don't like this, and you should do it differently. You don't. You know you don't care about me. That's why you forgot out to get the dry cleaning. And I'm talking about you. And when I talk about you, I'm inviting you to argue with me. That's what I'm doing. I'm saying here, this is what I think about you. Now you tell me why I'm wrong. That's essentially what you hear. But when I talk about me, you know what, when you forget the dry cleaning, here's how I feel. I feel forgotten, I feel unworthy, I feel inadequate. Now I'm inviting you to care about me, and that is speaking to be heard. That's helping you hear what I need you to hear, instead of trying to drill it into you, which isn't going to work well.

17:23 And as you get into as you get into different personalities, and this is the one thing that I found as I you know, work with people, as far as the behavioral analysts do, the personality evaluations and so forth. Is so often, for instance, you tend to be more You went into work as a left brain, but you're more right brain. You love to be with people, you love to tell jokes, you love to talk, all of that type of stuff. And so not only is it how you like to communicate, but it's also how you like to be communicated with. I could be driving you crazy right now because I'm very it's left brain, and so I may be communicating the way I want to communicate, which may not necessarily be how you like to be communicated.

18:07 How important is it to understand the other person's personality and how they would like to be communicated with. So, for instance, with me, normally, if you know where I'm left brain, the reality is if someone goes on and on and on, it drives me crazy. It's just I get to the point. And yet at the same time, for others is like, well, let's have this conversation and let's move forward, and so forth. And if I were talking to you and you happen to like more of that conversation and so on and so forth, I'm just going to well, here's the point. Here's the point that can drive you crazy too. So how important is it for us to really understand the personality of the other individual and how they want to be spoken to.

18:57 So understanding where somebody else i'ms from ban's really underlying everything that we're doing here, right again, help me understand is to me the three most important words. You don't like what I'm doing. I don't get it right. Like you know, maybe I come from a family where interrupting as normal, and you seem to get very upset every time I interrupt you. I don't get it. Could you help me understand why that bothers you? So if I learn where you're coming from and why, I can try to adapt. That doesn't mean that I'm wrong and that you're right. It means we're different. People are different, we can do it differently. And if I'm willing to hear you out and willing to try to understand you and get where you're coming from, that puts un in a much better place to have a good relationship.

19:37 And that's where speaking to be heard really comes in, where you really are talking to them knowing that they will actually hear you, understand you, you get into the next one. Love your partner. Now that's a big. Topic, right. So when I say that, what I'm referring to as an acronym that I use in the book, which is love lov and that is what you're supposed to do when you listen. When you're the listener, you're not speaking. So I actually I think as a part in the chapter previously, or or maybe it's in this chapter where I talk about dividing the conversation into two parts. One is where I speak and you listen, and the other one is where I listen and you speak. And so as a speaker, I have certain things that I do.

20:21 I talk about me, like I said, I don't talk about you. But as the listener, you're going to do four things, and four things only L listen. OH is reflecting your own words. B is validate, and E is empathized l ov right, either remember acronym, but it takes away all the other things that we try to do. One of the most common things is people try to explain. I say to you, I'm really upset because you forgot to get the dry cleaning, and you say, well, I didn't have time I was so busy, my boss yelled at me whatever it is, And you think that if you explain to me why that happened, that all feel better, and most people will attest that never works. It's rare that I say, well, you know I didn't have time, it was so big, and then you go, oh, okay, well then no big deal. Rather, what happens is that that esclays the argument. So what I tell people that we have to start with is l ov First, if you're listening to me, you just listen, and then you reflect what you heard in your own words. Oh, so you're upset that I forgot to get the dry cleaning.

21:15 I get that. Validating means I get that that makes sense. I can see why you feel that way. Right, Let mean I agree with you. It means I see why you feel that way. And empathize means it really stinks. I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry you feel forgotten. I'm sorry you feel I'm worried, unworthy. Now I'm sorry like I've done bad, but just like I empathize with you. That's hard. And when I do those things, you feel heard, you feel connected. It's a much better way to go than my trying to explain to you why you shouldn't be upset. Upset well, And I love that. You know, when when you're saying something to me and I'm not really liking what you say, can you help me to understand that a little bit more? And you know that type of thing where you are able to acknowledge what they said and empathize with it and realize it. And I think that's such an important part of communication that most people don't understand.

22:06 I mean, nobody teaches us this stuff when we're kids. We just kind of fumble along. And then you get married and I don't know about you, but I didn't get the Manual to Marriage when I got married. You know, we're left to figure it out by this out. That's why I wrote this manual, you know, for the community to help chigured out. It's difficult, but when you learn what works, and when you learn the skills and practice them, it makes it so much more workable. It works well well. And that's a whole other topic about how do we prepare our children for a better marriage from the get go, Because the divorce rate is so high that it was very sad, all right, So then we get into listening, and you've kind of talked about that a little bit, but let's get into that depth a little bit more. Right So, the listening means I'm really listening to you, and I'm not listening in order to come up with my next rebuttal right, listening means I've put myself into your world. We all agree in this stage my stuff doesn't matter. If I'm listening to you complain about the dry cleaning, I'm going to be there with you. The fact that I had a rough day, the fact that my car broke down. Those could all be true. It's irrelevant right now. Right now, I'm in your world and I'm going to be totally there and just understand what you're saying, rather than thinking out what I'm gonna say next, rather than scrolling through my phone, like I'm there with you.

23:17 So that's listening. And you know, there's some basic skills to go into that. I think a lot of people are familiar with them. But this is just helping people remember like, oh yeah, I should be paying attention. Eye content can be helpful, at least an American culture, we sort of expect it. So getting that dialed in and it's like, Okay, I really am listening, so that you know I'm listening to you. That's an important place to start. Yeah. Yeah, And you know where does the ego come into this whole thing? Oh it's everywhere, right, Our ego is everywhere. It's very hard for me to allow your your version of the story right. So often couples have differing versions of what happened. No, you didn't say that, you said this rest. No, you said Dad first in the death, and they argue about it and I have to be right. And throughout the book I talk about how this is not about right or wrong. If you want to insist on being right, you can go right to Rightville on your own. It's a very lonely place. Right. We have this ego that we want to be right, and it's hard to be wrong.

24:13 But if we can agree. Look, your version of your story is yours mine is mine, and we don't have to make them match up. That's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow. We are not going to reconcile what happened. But it's a much better place because if I have to agree with you or you have to agree with me, we're going to be fighting forever about who is right. If we can let go of that ego a little bit, I do not have to convince you that I'm right. I just have to understand how you feel about it. You have to understand how I see it, how I feel about it. That's a great connection, even if we don't agree ever. Well, and you talk about it, and I would say the word perception, and you know, I find a fascinating I've got a brother that is an attorney and the centies as we got into this conversation where he talks about, you know, here's an accident, and you've got four witnesses of what happened, and as you interview each of those four witnesses, they have an entirely different perception of what happened.

25:08 And it's interesting how we are literally controlled by our perceptions and not realizing that, you know, maybe my perception is entirely different than your perception. Right. So that's why I tell people, let's not worry about what actually happened. Let's talk about how you see it and how you feel about that, because that's where the action is happening. Yeah, I love it. And then you've talked about it again, and I love the order of how you've done that, reflecting in your own words, talk a little bit about what that is. Great. So the first thing I do is I listened to you, but I got to make sure that I got what you said. It's so common you said I'm angry about this, that, and the other, and I think you meant you're angry about something like I didn't quite get it. So I have to verify that I got it by saying, okay, So you're mad at me because I forgot the dry cleaning right, or maybe you're not mad at me about forgetting the dry cleaning, but you're mad that I didn't call you when I whatever it's going to be, I have to that that I got it right.

26:01 Now. Even if I'm sure that I got it right, and I did get it right, I want you to know that I got it right. If I say okay, I get it, you don't really know whether I got it when I say to you okay. So it really bothers you when I forget to get things that I said I would get. Now you know I heard you. There's a connection there. There's a relief that I heard you. That's a really important step besides the saying mm hmm, I get it. I had to say, I get you're upset about X y Z. And then you know that I heard you. Okay, yeah, and when you when couple start to do that, what do you see starts to change in that relationship? They get in sync, you know, instead of being at loggerheads.

26:41 If I really step into your world and I say, okay, you're saying this, this is what's bothering you, I get that that bothers you. Now you know I'm listening instead of trying to force something down my throat and I'm trying to defend against it. We're in sync. We're working together on the problem. It feels so much better for people. Well, and you kind of went into the validating the empathize, you know, the empathizing is so yeah, go ahead and talk about that. So the next part is now that I understood what you said, right, I said, okay, you are upset about this, Then I want you to know I get that that makes sense. I don't necessarily agree that that's what happened. I don't agree that. I know you said to me you don't care about my needs enough. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can understand why you would feel that in the situation. You're not crazy. What you're saying makes sense. It's valid to feel the way you do.

27:30 That again, is a relief for people. It feels better, it feels like we're on the same page. That is super helpful to moving the conversation along in a collaborative way. Yeah, I smile. As I was doing some work with coaching life coaching. One of the comments that was made and we were getting into the whole concept of emotion and how that can affect us. And he's the gentleman that was teaching us, said, you know, here's something that you ideally could say to you, but you better not or you're in real trouble. And that is so dear. What emotion came up for you? It caused you to respond this way, right, and yet that's the truth.

28:18 But the way to say that again is help me understand what's bothering you right now? How are you feeling? Right? When I say how you feeling that made you act that way, I'm implying that you're being obnoxious. I'm implying you've done something wrong. And the subtext never goes well but if I'm coming from a place of I'd like to understand that's okay. Hey, you seem a little bit upset. You know, we're talking about what's what the plan is for dinner? You seem a little bit upset right now? Is something about what's bothering you? If I really want to know, it comes across as genuine and you can tell me. But I'm saying, well, what's bothering you? Now? I'm not really asking you. I'm telling you to shut up and stop doing that. And that's not a good connection. Well, and you've got the words you've used, You've got the tone that you use, you've got the boss language they use, and all of that. And do you work with people on that as you observe what's going on.

29:06 Well, sometimes we'll we'll bring that up in the sense that, you know, someone will say I don't think he's listening to me. I'll say okay, and he'll say, well I am listening. I'll say, well, you know what, the way you're kind of leaning back like this, you know, it kind of indicates that maybe you know, the body language says you're not really paying that much attention. Try sitting a little more forward like this and looking at her. That might convey more that you're listening, and it often does. All right in your next chapter beginning's, middles and endings, what is that all about? Just let's talking of a lot about the mechanics of what how do we get into this conversation? Right? I suggest to people it's really helpful if you do your partner in right. So if you're mad about dinner or the dry cleaner or whatever, if you launch right into that, you know, I'm mad because of this that the other your partner is likely to you know, get defensive and be caught off guard. But if I say to you, hey, you know, can we talk about something that's bothering me, I'd really just like you to listen to me and hear me out. Let's do that listening thing that we do right. That will help us get into the right mode for you to listen and get to my world and you know, l ov and all that stuff, rather than being caught off guard. So talking about the beginning the middle, how do we transition back and forth between my speaking to year speaking, which is basically with permission, right, If I'm speaking and I'm telling you how I feel, and something comes up for you, maybe you want to share that, but it's really helpful for you to say, hey, could I share something of mine now? Or if I say, hey, I'd like to hear from you now. If we don't, if we aren't clear about who's got the comp shell, you know, who's who's got the talking stick and who's speaking, that turns into a ping pong match very quickly. So just being

30:36 sure about you know, how we're transitioning who's speaking, and then the ending is like, okay, when do we have to take a break, When are we done with the conversation? You know, how do we move on to the resolution conversation. So it's a lot of the mechanics of those conversations, but that all comes a lot a lot more clear when you get the skills down, you practice those you know, the speaking, the listening in a helpful way. Well. As you talk about the beginning, that really then falls on whoever is upset about something to be able to approach it in a way that doesn't immediately challenge the other person and their ego, but as you're saying or rather you know, approach it from a standpoint of words, emotion, body language, all of that that just says, hey, here's how I'm feeling, and it's really bothered me without putting blame on someone else.

31:25 Right, Blame will not help. Blame breathes defensiveness, and defensiveness does not work for these conversations. Right. That's why I say I talk about me. I talk about my story. I want you to understand how the world looks from my perspective. I don't want to talk about you, because you're going to argue if I talk about you. I want to talk about me. Okay, So we've spent two days now not talking. Now must real bad, doctor, don Now we're gonna now we're going to come together and resolve this thing. And and how do you help those people and whatever that is, whether it's two hours or two day or whatever, or as you said, even sometimes two weeks, how do you then approach it to achieve a resolution not only of understanding, but of empathy and love, not as you talk about it, but true love and connection.

32:18 Yeah. Yeah, So again, the first thing is if we had a bad incident, we're gonna come back when we're ready, when we're calm, and go through this thing. I call it empathic dialogue, which is where I'm speaking to be heard. You're listening with the love skills, and we just explore the problem together. You understand what hurts me about it. I understand what hurts you about it. So often we're mad at each other for the same thing, and those are the hardest conversations because I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong, and it's such a good tendency to start blaming. But if I tell you how I'm feeling, and then we switch and you tell me how you're feeling, now we're in connection again because I care about how you're feeling. I may not agree with you and your perception of what happened, but I really care about how you feel. That makes all the difference. Now we're in connection again, and then we can move towards resolving and figuring out what to do in the future about this particular situation. But until we feel connected and empathic towards each other, we're not going to get anywhere.

33:11 So any examples of that, because you know, as you say, there may be perception on one end and perception on another end. Once they've come together and are really going through this resolving process, how how do you help people if you know, they really get to the point of we're going to just have to agree to disagree, but that's not the ideal. How do you help How do you help them to really come together and come up with a solution that works for both people. So solutions are not necessarily what you need for a good relationship or a good marriage. There are some problems that don't have good solutions right. The research shows that most couples have irreconcilable differences in their marriage. There are, you know, certain things they will never agree on. How you discuss that makes the difference in terms of whether it's a good marriage or not. So regardless of how we're going to handle it, if I can talk to you in a way that that works well. So let's say I think you're too harsh on the kids, and you think I'm too easy on the kids. So if I can tell you, you know what, when you yell at them, I get scared. I'm worried that they're going to, uh, they're going to not like you, They're going to be more rebellion. I'm worried about these things. And you can empathize with my worry, and then I can hear what you know you're worry. You'll tell me, well, I'm worried.

34:29 If we don't set firm boundaries, they're going to be losing all over the place. And you have that worry. Okay, great, So I care about your worry, you care about my worry. We're in this together. What's the best way to do it good? We can work on that. We can now if we understand each other and care about the other person's strains and worries and stresses, we can work towards ideas that might help. We may never come up with something perfect, but that won't matter as much for our relationship because we'll feel like we're in this together and that's where it's at. Well, but you brought up an interesting point. As you're working with with your kids, you want to do it in a particular way. They want to do it a particular way. It may be opposite. How do you come to a solution where your kids are experiencing a commonality of parenting that otherwise they would be experiencing that conflict that's going on, and well that dad says it this way, Mom says it this way, and yet they don't agree.

35:26 So how do you come together, particularly in parenting, to not create that issue for your children. So I think the idea that the parents have to be exactly the same is this common misconception out there that like, if we're not exactly doing the same thing, the kids are going to suffer. It's okay for dad to be a little harsher and mom to be a little softer. I see that in couples all over the place. I think the key is not to undermine each other or not to fight about it in front of the kids, but to say afterwards, you know, when you yelled at the kids or when you did this, I really makes me uncomfortable, and I wish we could do it a little differently, and we can keep working on that. But you know what, when you're you know, when you're being harsh with the kids, I'm not gonna step in there and say no, don't do that. And when I you know, offer the kids an exit, assert you don't step in there and take it away from them, like, Okay, we can talk about it later. We can again, we can go through the steps and empathize about it with each other.

36:20 The kids will be okay, We'll be in good shape, and we keep working on it together. I saw a couple one time that had a completely opposite problem. She wanted another kid, he did not. There's no halfway point there, there's no compromise about we'll just have the top half. That's not an option, right, So it's either you do or you don't. And their marriage was suffering because they couldn't. They couldn't get reconciled around this. So they came in. We worked on the communication patterns. We helped them understand why was it so important to her to have another kid? Why was he so opposed to it? And they had deep reasons. It wasn't like just you know, out of nowhere. There were deep seated reasons about this. And once we got down to those deeper things like you mentioned before, they were able to really hear the other person and connect and empathize. And they came back after a few weeks and said, you know what, our marriage is much better and thank you. We really feel much better about where this is going. And that was it. And I have no idea what they decided about having a care out that that's a decat That wasn't the issue these two is are we connected or not? This problem may not have a good solution, but we love each other, we're committed, We're going to work through this.

37:26 That's the relations and you know that goes into your next chapter of mindset, and really, ultimately, isn't that the key is? How do we develop that mindset that we follow your whole book and chapters on how to communicate well and how to connect well? How does someone develop that proper mindset? I think it's a question of paying attention to the things that make this workable. So some of the mindsets that bring up in there, well, one of them is your partner is awesome, right, Like, you really love your partner and can think of some very good things about them. If you can't think about anything good about your partner, we have a problem, right And the communication book may not be what we need right now. But if you focus on the things that are right about them and the things that work, and you notice them and you verbalize them, then when they forget the dry cleaning if not that big a deal, and when you have a context in which to place the mistakes and the problems, it hurts less. So cultivating that culture of appreciation and fondness in your relationship is an important mindset. Benefit of the doubt. Right, that's a hard one. You came late, and I assume it is because you don't care about me and you've forgotten all those things. But the reality is traffic. If somebody stole your phone, the boss was young at you, whatever it might be, that makes a lot of sense. And we've all had these situations where we're mad at somebody and then afterwards we find out like, oh, I see why that happened, right, And so if you

38:57 can have that mindset up there, there might be a good reason here. We reduce the number of fights and reduce the friction. So there are ways that we can cultivate a mindset in ourselves that reduce conflict and improve communication in our relationship. So as you work with couples, do you find that there's some commonality of particular issues that seem to always be there with most couples. So most couples come to me saying we need help with communication. That's why I wrote this book because it always, not always, it frequently starts there, and it's usually a deeper issue like I feel unloved, I feel unprioritized, which are common themes, or I feel controlled, and where that first comes up is when we're trying to communicate about an issue and it doesn't go well. So it's very common for people to feel like they have communication issues, it's not working well, and getting that to change, getting that dynamic, that change helps us get to the deeper stuff that's really bothering them in the relationship.

39:55 So any other examples of couples that you've worked with where there's been a dramatic change in their relationship because of your help with this. Sure, yeah, I mean, you know, we see dramatic changes all the time. More often than not, it's sort of slow and gradual and not huge, but sometimes it really is. I mean, I've worked with couples. I do a lot of work with infidelity, and people come in, you know, sort of at the end of their rope, the bottom of the barrel. They think the relationship is over. And the truth infidelity does not have to mean the end of the relationship, but there is a lot of communicating that has to go into it, and a lot of very ginger conversations, a lot of difficult conversations with good communication skills, but people who are about to split up and about to lose a very important thing to them to turn around. I have seen couples where infidelity blew up the marriage and we put it back together and they're living a happy life after. I remember one guy came in terrified that he had just been found out, and we brought the couple in and it turns out that after a while, it turns out the affair part it was pregnant and had the child, and it was it was disastrous, but consistent work, commitment, getting better communication, they made it through and they had a happy marriage and they incorporated this child into their lives and they got married and it was good.

41:14 It's work well, and you know, we have our successes, we have our failures. As you approached us in your couple's counseling, what what would you say, you know, not a specific number, but what percentage do you find you can help couples to come together when they're really in trouble versus those and what what is the key what is the key indication of the individuals in that couple that help you to know, you know what, I can really help them or it's just not going to happen. So one thing is a willingness to change and to look themselves. Some of who comes in assuming that it's all their partner or you know, I don't have to change anything, that's probably not going to get better. Everybody has to work together on this. Everyone's got to change.

42:05 Nobody's perfect. So people who come and say, you know, can you fix my wife, like, that's probably not going to get better. And the other thing is that people need a basic sense of respect for each other. When there is contempt for the other person, they think they're allows a person. I think that you're stupid, I think that you are you know, any number of negative things. If I don't have the basic respect for you and I have contempt for you, that is a real harbinger of the end of the relationship. So do you just not work with those folks or only work with them for a few weeks. I will try with every just about everybody. I will try and help them see what they can do differently. I'll say, look, if you don't have respect for your spouse, it probably won't get better. If you think that you don't have to do anything differently, it probably won't get better.

42:50 I try to draw them in, but it's up to them. Ultimately, I can't do the work for them. The place where I don't try to work with them is where it seems like there's a safety issue when there's domestic violence involved. I remember one time where I met this couple and I called her up afterwards and I said, I think you're in physical danger and I think you need to leave and get yourself safe. But that's rare for the people who come to me. I mean, domestic violence unfortunately is not rare, but for the people who come see me that it's now so common. Yeah. Yeah, So the name of the book and how do people find it and how do people find you for help? Right? So, the name of the book is the Couple's Communication Handbook, The Skills you never learned for the marriage you always wanted. You can find the book and me at vcommunication book dot com and you can get the first du chapters for free, as I know you did.

43:40 You can get the first du chapters for free in a PDF in audiobook and check it out and see if you think it's helpful. I think it will be. But check it out for yourselves. And people can reach out to me through the site there if they want to ask questions about the book or get some individualized help. I'm happy to do that as my mission in life is helping people get the relationships they want. Amazon also because you mentioned audio books, or it. Is on Amazon as a paperback ebook and audiobook, and you can you can search on Amazon and you can find it. There's a link to it on Amazon from that site. Because I love audio books for me. You know, if you're really busy, being able to listen while you're driving, or to listen while you're walking or exercising, I think that's fantastic. So as we close, what would be a final thought that you'd like to share with with the couples that are listening.

44:29 I just want people to know that things can get better in a difficult relationship, and that getting your communication dialed in can really make all the difference. So people sometimes are despairing or exhausted or exasperated. You know, getting some help really makes a difference. You take out a book like this, you talk to a couple's coach or a counselor things can get better and it can really make a difference in people's lives. Well, I love it, and I think you've hit on a key point. You know so often and I'm guilty of this, you know, trying to resolve it myself versus recognizing that, you know, when you can get some outside help, someone that's independent and not emotionally involved, per se that it is so important. So Raffie, thanks so much. You know, I love how you've put this whole book together. I've studied communication a lot, and you know, as you're talking about it, in the order that you put it in is just amazing. So really appreciate that.

45:27 Thank you so much for the vote of confidence. They really hope that it helps people. Oh you bet, and folks, thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it. Look forward to having you join us again soon. This is doctor Doug saying, no, I'm mistake.