0:00 Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart & Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Brother. Man, I can look right deep into your eyes, Christopher. It's a little different. This is very different. I'm a little uneasy. It's going to take a moment to get used to this. You came fully loaded here. You got your notepad, your laptop, the whole bit. I just technically wanted everyone that watched to see how productive I am at all times.

0:44 Well, I'm just really glad that you have your glasses here handy in case you have to look at your phone. You won't have to hold it 49 inches away from your face to read. That'll be good. 36. Yeah. If anything, we're accurate here. What happened here? Did you drop that in Alaska? Yeah, I've dropped it a bunch of times. Yeah. All right. It's time for a new one. So let's talk about the studio. One, we haven't recorded for a couple of weeks. We haven't been on the airs, the interwebs. So we should chat about that a little bit. And then we get into a pod. Yeah, this is really amazing. You and Jana did an incredible job. I'm psyched. I'm really psyched, actually. Reboot. Yeah. So we are going to probably put out a little, kind of a little reel to kind of show the journey.

1:24 But for you that have always just kind of tuned into iTunes, right? Yeah. Podcasts. Podcasts. I Apple things stuff where you record and listen. We've rebooted everything. So the studio is being re-engineered for more live. Basically, our intention is we're going to start having way more guests in-house. We've got a slew of guests that are getting ready to get kind of concrete in their schedule right now. I think we have three or four that we've got slotted. Jan is working on that behind the scenes right now. And man, we've got some cool adventures set up and planned. And we're just going to start doing a lot more video first in terms of the show. So for those of you may not know, so even Apple Podcasts, for instance, they are now getting aggressive and turning video first in their format.

2:08 So you're now going to be able to actually watch... Most of the podcasts that people consume, you're going to be able to see it in video form there. We've already been able to do that on Spotify. For those of you that have followed YouTube a bit, we've always kind of tended to think of it as secondary. And so the team behind the scenes has been in a scramble getting all those shows uploaded and up to date. So I think we're about 10 behind now from being live on YouTube. So anyways, for those of you that haven't been paying attention visually to what's happening in the studio, a lot has happened and we're really excited about it. Stay tuned for that. And if you're not already following us on YouTube or tend to watch the show, go there, check it out. It's kind of fun to kind of see some of the physical banter that happens during the show.

2:50 We probably won't have any like circus midgets or anything too crazy, but who knows? You never know what you're going to run into. I've been doing most of my consumption on YouTube lately. Yeah. Like I, I've been doing a lot less bouncing between the apps and just like. Hanging in the tubes. Yeah. Most of the pod, I mean, a lot of podcasts I listened to were like Diary of his CEO, the Chris Williamson. With a modern wisdom. Yeah. I listen to his stuff a lot. Yeah. Jonathan Bai, who's a philosopher B. I'm not sure how he pronounced his last name. It's all on YouTube. I mean, everybody's on YouTube. right and i like being able if i want i'm working or working out to be able to glance at the video and stuff like that so i kind of like seeing who's talking to be honest like and then sometimes i'll just put in my pocket and i'll go on to my workout or whatever i'm doing but uh but yeah i agree okay man where are you taking us today you know i know you came in ripping with an idea Well, I wouldn't say ripping, but it's, yeah, it's an idea.

3:40 I just, yeah, kind of a little bit of a vulnerable share. We talked about what the topic is going to be. It's going to be love and marriage. Oh, boy. And I've just had so many, well, I had a conference in San Antonio, Core Collective. And inevitably, when I'm at conferences, I end up peeling off with different friends and clients and whatever. And we always end up getting into good conversations, you know, whether it's over dinner or on the patio at night. And things always come back to, okay, well, how's enough about business? Yeah. How's the rest of life? Right. Yeah. And I just think that we often don't talk enough about marriage and especially amongst business owners. I think there's just so much we're carrying. Yeah.

4:21 that our marriage relationships are often the first to suffer, along with kids and everything else. So I just think we should talk about it more. We had a big vacation to Alaska. It was kind of sort of a vacation that started out with, my son's up there, so we wanted to visit him halfway through his summer, roughly. And then we found out we get a friends and family discount since he's an employee. So we started looking at some of these excursions for a 15-year-old. We ended up locking him in on a nine-day backcountry adventure thing. He ended up going ice climbing and just doing all kinds of fun stuff. So he was doing that while you guys were up there. Yeah. He was participating. Yeah. So originally we were actually just initially going to throw him on a plane and send him up there.

5:03 And they're like, well, we can see Jack though. And so we'll go up there with him. And then Kara ended up kind of building this whole itinerary for us. We stayed at this. glamping spot. In fact, I'd love to maybe see if they want to be a sponsor at some point. We'd come do, we'd do like an onsite tour and stuff, but we went to this place that was owned by the guide company that Simon, my younger son went out on, it's called Alpenglow. And it's this glamping setup where they have like 10 of these kind of military style canvas tents, you know, and they're all facing the Matanuska Glacier, which is one of the bigger glaciers in Alaska. And this glacier, like this river of ice just flows all the way to where it terminates in this little valley.

5:48 And all of these tents face the glacier. And then there's this. I mean, God, Alaska is mountains everywhere. And I always brag to my friends who are in like other states about how we've got a bunch of 10,000 plus foot peaks, like an hour and a half from our house, you know. And it really is. Oregon's amazing. But in Alaska, yeah. There's 10,000 foot plus peaks everywhere. And then, of course, Denali, we actually got some pretty clear glimpses. The weather was perfect when we were up there. So Denali, 21,000 feet, tallest mountain in the United States. Impressive. Dude. I mean, a bunch of 10,000, 12,000, 14,000 foot peaks up there, like 5,000 foot peaks everywhere.

6:30 Whereas we have Mary's Peak here to like my left at 4,300 feet. That's our big one. Yeah. close to our house. Mount Hood's 12,000, almost 12,000. So you're talking about 2X, basically the tallest mountain in Oregon. Unbelievable. It was just so grand and whatever. So we ended up, Kara carved out this itinerary. Alpenglow, that glamping spot, is really close to Sheep Mountain Lodge where my son was at. And so we spent a night at that lodge and then we spent a night at Alpenglow and then we drove to Denali. And we spent four or five days car camping there. Yeah. It was amazing. And we somehow managed to get perfect weather too. Because we were warned. We came with our rain jackets and all the things and we had almost no rain the whole time.

7:14 That's awesome. So we lucked out. So where I want to start is, hopefully other people can relate to this, but we had this 10 day trip with Kara and I. We had moments with both of my boys, but it was mostly just us in between these other visits. And I was commenting to another married buddy of mine just how by the end of it, Kara and I were kind of grinding on each other, and not in a good way. And it was just like we started to, we had some squabbles about just the normal things that come up for us. And it was just interesting to reflect on that after 25 years. I feel like most people, when they go on vacations, they take the Instagram photos and all you see is just how happy they are and how in love they are and how awesome they are doing these cool things.

8:00 And I made to look like this is an everyday weekend in the life of the Nordiques. Yeah. Yeah. And we're just so in love and we have a perfect marriage and everything else. And I was telling this buddy, he's like, oh yeah, I totally know what you're talking about. In fact, he said, you know, usually like after three or four days, we start to feel some of that tension. That made me feel a little bit better. Like maybe we're somewhat normal. But it just kind of sent me off. And I was just curious to stoke this with you, just kind of what your experience has been. But I was reflecting on the squabbles that we have. And in Kara and I's marriage, and I've kind of tested the waters with Kara. I know she's pretty comfortable with me talking about this more broadly. But like most couples, what are the big squabbles that people get into? Money. Yeah.

8:40 Sex. Some couples fight about money. Money, sex, parenting. Yeah. Right. Fortunately, Jana and I have never fought on any of those. Any of those things. So we're fine. But... Well, I just thought you'd be like a perfect edge case. Totally. It's the example that you should pursue. Yes. Yeah. Like I think last time I evaluated, we're probably about 70% of the way towards the Brandon and Jana standard. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But it's a hard flag to bear. The best part is Jana engineers the show now. So I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, this is going to change the dynamic. I know. I was going to say, yeah, Jana's in studio with us now. It's fun. She's our young Jamie. Yeah, that's right. If you follow the Joe Rogan show. Yeah. And so I was looking back over this week and I think it was as I was driving into the office one day or maybe it was my shower time.

9:24 And I was just like, gosh, you know, will we ever get to a point where we go away for a week or two weeks vacation and it's just bliss and there's nothing else, right? You know, for us, it's always been, sex has always been our thing. And I feel really lucky and grateful that we're very compatible in most of the ways. But like with many couples, I think there's a differential in frequency and drive and all that kind of stuff. And my testosterone has been climbing back up. You've been putting fuel in the tank. I've been working on that. And so, you know, that's just like, I think all couples have this minefield that they learn to navigate. And I'm really grateful because Kara and I, even though we do have that minefield, we've learned to talk about the mines and we kind of know where they're at.

10:07 And when we're walking together, it's like when we see a mine approaching, we've learned how to be really honest and talk through that. And yet they're still there. Yeah. Yeah. you know? And so it's like, here's a scenario where we're in Alaska, we're car camping, not the most ideal circumstances for romance for most people. And so there's just that element that's present. And I, in hindsight, I was thinking about it. There's, I think what I came away with was just this realization that if I look back over our marriage, there's, 25 years ago versus the last five years, it's a completely different story. Yeah. Like our life, in all ways, our sex life, all of that stuff is just a completely different world.

10:50 It's so much better. And in fact, like the last few years across the board, like just the way we talk and like spending time together, all of those things. and the sex has just continued to get better and better. And I think I've talked to you about this. A lot of us has been through honesty. Yeah. Just like both of us developing the courage to be more and more honest with each other in the area of sex, but everything else where there's been hurt feelings, getting honest faster, you know, and not wallowing in it or kind of doing the whole kind of disconnect and... For me, it's kind of embarrassing to say so, but I have this way that I'll sometimes kind of pout, you know, when, when like there's a disconnect and I'm not feeling heard or I'm not appreciated or whatever my issue is.

11:32 And we've started to kind of learn how to more quickly get out of that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But there's just this idea that it gets better, but it doesn't get easier. Yeah. And I was just kind of contending with that. There's this idea that I think if somebody really, really wants to have a deep connection, a really honest, deep, authentic connection with their spouse, I think it can continually get better and better. And that's been Kara and I's experience. And yet at the very same time, it doesn't get easier. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't hear people talk about that very much. Yeah. You know, it's funny that timing is hilarious. And again, Jana is our engineer. We'll be able to attest to this.

12:13 So I think the easier thing is a little shocking because I think we would collectively say the same thing is that Jana's had a saying that every seven years, basically you become... Basically a different person. And there might be some foundational stuff that remains the same. Like I can see themes that have been true my whole life, but seven years of exposure to life, exposure to losses and gains, exposure to failures, exposure to wins, new relationships coming and going kids, parts of marriage, like, There's so much that you experience in seven to 10 years that if you were not to change, that would fundamentally say something's wrong. You know what I mean? And so this idea that you shift that much or that you become like very different people in terms of worldview, it's no wonder that a lot of marriages don't make it.

13:00 Like imagine like that was part of like Jana and I's story when we first got married. Our parents were adamant because we were babies. We were like 20, you know, and they're saying like, you don't even know each other yet. Like you don't even know what you're signing up for. And it's funny because two things can be true simultaneously is they were right. And well, just like business or any other journey, you don't know until you do it. So it's like, yes, that's true. And at the same time, but that's how you learn is that you end up taking the steps and going through it. Anyways. So, you know, Jan and I are going to be 30 years in December. That's a long time, man. And we've outlasted any friend group that we're a part of. We've been married essentially longer.

13:41 All of our family, we've been married essentially longer than all of them except for a couple sets of grandparents. Yeah. And so we're just in uncharted territory in terms of our own sphere of influence. But we, I think we would both say, I'll have to check with Janet later, that it's gotten better and better and better and that we've had moments, and I think more recently, where collectively it's been really rad, kind of across all the pillars. Yeah. But, and just like you said, it doesn't get easier. Well, not that long ago, we're on the back porch and Jana has a come to Jesus conversation with me. And I'm kind of perplexed, to be honest, because in my mind, I'm looking at our marriage journey collectively. I'm thinking, God dang, dude, like this is the best I think it's ever been.

14:21 Like, you know, and yet she does have this thing that we need to address and work through because it's not optimal. It's not the best it could be or as good as it could be. And so that presents a challenge. And I think what you're saying, or part of what I'm hearing is the not getting easier part is it's like, as you do more work. So first off, I think not very many men in general and marriages are working that diligently at it. I think most of us, if we're super honest, is we're dumping a ton of time and energy into developing skills and systems and disciplines everywhere in our life. And a lot of times the last place that's getting any element of that kind of attention is at home.

15:03 And so we got to call that out because that's a reality. And I'm in that zone sometimes. I'm not saying I'm always awesome. But you and I, part of our accountability in both our business relationship and friendship is that we've said that that's important. We need to hold each other accountable to that. So we do point to that often. But what I'm trying to say here is that part of what makes it difficult is if you then are a couple that's putting time and energy in and you are investing that way, you also get to realize it can get better. And so part of the challenge is that I think this is true with anything. Your vision expands. When you recognize or experience something you may not have before. And I think, man, this could go a million directions.

15:45 I think this is part of what creates a constant state of dissatisfaction too, right? But point being is that when you do have some level of gain or growth in your marriage and you begin to look to your left and right and say, wow, we're not perfect. We got a long ways to go. But man, we're doing some pretty cool shit together. Yeah. Well, then you also realize, well, if we got this far, there's more. The other thing I've noticed about it too, and why I think this whole never gets easier piece is real, is that the deeper of a connection you build, the less excuse you have. And what I mean by that is we know each other really well. And so when we commit offenses, we offend or irritate or frustrate the other, it's, I think the weight of it, it stings a little bit more because like when one of us feels unappreciated or neglected or unseen, not paid attention to maybe for even a day or two, it's like these things, these emotions just spark and they feel so much heavier, but it's like, hey, you know this about me, right?

16:45 Why does this continue to be a problem when we know all these things about each other? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's a part of human nature that one, we as a default behavior are focused on ourselves. And I don't know that that ever completely changes, right? It's like my instinct is to protect myself and to try to get what I need. And I can lose awareness of that. And I can just get caught up in that desire for what I need and want. It's like on a sliding scale, if you think about like your kids. versus where you're at now. It's still true. The theme is still consistent. By default, we do tend to look out for ourselves first. And you and I have talked about this in that heart of the matter talk we've given on stage a couple of times.

17:30 These file folders that we pull Like Karen, I got in a little spat this morning and it was just, I think in some ways the topics and the sources of the conflict become smaller and more, you know, it's like we aren't having big arguments about, I mean, I don't even know what the big argument would be around sex, but like people get really frustrated as some people do on Monday. It's never really been our thing, but people get into really big fights about how we're spending or saving or debt, you know, we're taking on or stuff like that. But it's like, I think the longer we're together, the things that really fire us up and kind of separate us is little stuff. Like this morning we were having a conversation. I don't even remember the exact genesis of it.

18:10 Right. But I ended up, I think, kind of triggering her. I hate that word. Yeah. But like, I ended up sparking something inside of her that was tied to like our first 10 years of marriage. Like something I said, like really irritated and brought something up for her that to me, as she started kind of getting upset and flustered, I'm like, what is going on here? What did I say? Mm-hmm. And finally, after about 45 minutes of conversation, like our whole coffee time, she was able to articulate kind of what was going on inside of her. And I was like, oh, shit. Well, okay. That's not so bad. I get that. Yeah, yeah. But it's like for us, dude, it's taken 25 years for us to get to this point where I feel like I'm the same thing with her.

18:53 I mean, she's really committed to this as well. There is a lot of awkward moments. Hanging in the pocket long enough in the offense and in the awkwardness and in like my ego being like, well, this isn't true. Like I didn't mean it that way. Like of me just keeping that stuff to myself long enough. And she has to do the same thing to just like listen for understanding. To just like, because everything that comes out at the front end of these squabbles is so offensive to me and to her. It takes us a while to kind of walk the path together to where finally I'm like, oh, okay, I see why. Finding mutual ground. Yes. Mutual understanding, maybe. Yes. Yeah, for her to understand me or for me to understand her.

19:37 And I don't know. I don't even know what the point of this is necessarily or who this potentially helps. But I think I just more and more as I get older and I have more friends and I'm more committed to like kind of having more deep kind of heartfelt conversations with buddies of mine and stuff. I just realized we don't talk about this stuff in our culture. Yeah. And so the net effect of that is I think a lot of us run around thinking that we have, pardon me, but kind of a fucked up marriage or we're struggling in a unique way. Yeah. That like, you know, people might look at Brandon and Jana and be like, oh man, they've really got it all figured out. And maybe you do. But this is, this is the thing though, is like there's so much pressure to convey to everybody else that we're okay, we're good, or we're awesome.

20:20 Yeah. Yeah. When in reality, none of us are. Yeah. That's more and more my conviction is that all of us, no matter how pretty the Instagram photos and how cool the places are that we travel and the photos we take of ourselves together. Yeah. There's still all of this underneath it. Are you a business that's under 5 million in sales and you're just now getting ready to try and scale your company up and hit some of those targets you've always wanted to hit, but now you've got to build a sales team? Or maybe you just hired your first sales rep, but you don't really know how to manage them. Like how do you manage, lead, train, develop a sales rep? Floodlight has a solution for you now. So we can actually assign your sales rep a turnkey VP of sales that will help them create a sales blueprint, their own personal sales plan for your market.

21:06 They'll have weekly one-on-ones with that sales rep to coach, mentor them, hold them accountable to the plan. And they'll also have a monthly owner's meeting where they'll meet with you or your general manager and review the progress of that sales rep. Their plan to actual results, what kind of performance improvement they're working on with them. Also let them know, hey, you might, they're doing really well. Maybe we should think of hiring a second sales rep. They're going to have that one-to-one advice for you as an owner or senior leader on the team as well. How great would that be to have a bolt-on sales manager for your one sales rep and it's only $2,500 a month? If you're interested in talking more about that, reach out. Let's grab some time and let's talk shop. Our floodlight clients this last year in 2024 generated over $250 million in revenue.

21:49 Supported by, advised by, an industry expert who's owned and operated a business just like you. So take action. Don't kick the can down the road. Start with our business health and value assessment. And let's unlock the next chapter of your success story. You and I were talking about some kind of author or something, and they were referencing kind of state of men specifically and how there's just a lot of suffering and silence. Yeah. And of course, that's this individual's perspective. He's trying to raise awareness about kind of men, some emotional state. Get it. Yeah. Definitely valuable. I think it is something that needs more airtime. Yeah, why most men live their lives in a state of quiet desperation.

22:30 Yeah, quiet desperation. And you know what? But the reality of it is, I won't go through details, but kind of just thinking back to Jana and I's kind of more recent little exchange is, well, she could be. And that's what's happening more times than not, is that the partner is suffering in silence. They're ignoring. They may be telling themselves, this shouldn't bother me. I shouldn't care about this. I'm being too much. I'm too emotional. Yeah. Whatever the thing is, but the reality of it is, is that what I'm trying to do more times than not is understand that there's a genuine want for experiencing the best that we can and that the pursuit of that is worth the hard stuff.

23:10 And it's funny because I think when I think about business, you and I for maybe obvious, maybe not so obvious, depending on how outside of the circle you are with you and I, we've had to make some decisions around floodlight and some other things to get honest about what is the thing that we're trying to accomplish. Yeah. And what kind of hard or short-term pain are you willing to go through to experience that? And so for context on that, for me, it's like, do I want to make gobs of money? Sure. Do I want lots of assets and resources? Yeah. Do I want the ego thing that says, gosh, look at how great this guy is based on what's on his wrist or what he drives? Yes, I do want all those things.

23:52 Mm-hmm. But what I'm assessing now at 50 is I'm not willing to give up certain things to experience that. However, to have a great marriage, to be seen and respected by my kids, to be prepared to leave a beginning legacy with grandchildren, I'm willing to sacrifice certain things and suffer certain pain to experience that. And I think that ultimately what happens is there's kind of a, I mean, trying not to turn this into a two-step program by any means, but there's this element of first, I think, men and women have to decide, do you really want to experience a long-term marriage?

24:34 Do you want the relationship that you have with your partner to be the best version of that relationship, not based on Instagram reels, but based on people that you know, that you trust, that you respect, that you believe has wisdom. And when you look at their marriage and what they're experiencing, what they have when no one else is around, what they have when the bills don't get paid the way you want, when they have what the business can't provide, if you see that and that has real value to you, then you have to say, first, you have to identify that. There's some element of a North Star. And then you have to identify what are you willing to do to get it? Because I think what happens is that people in their mind, and not shitting on anybody, but people often look at stuff, a job, a role, a title.

25:22 I'm an entrepreneur. I'm not an entrepreneur. And they overly romanticize and undervalue what it requires to get the thing or have the title or be the thing. Mm-hmm. And I think we do that in our marriages. We like the idea of having a great marriage, but we misunderstand what it requires to obtain it. Yeah, counting the cost. And we don't. We haven't properly assessed that we really want that thing, want it bad enough. And then do you understand what would require it? I think often we're just not aware of how involved our ego is in these marriage exchanges. Like, you know, Kara and I, I'm an external processor. You know this about me. I'm going to talk our way through it, right?

26:03 She's an internal processor, right? So she's listening to me talk about what's going on for me. Like her best scenario is... She would like leave the room for an hour, maybe go out on the back deck, kind of think about it for a while, then come back and re-engage in the conversation. But for me as an external processor, it drives me nuts. No air gap. Right? It's like, no, no, no, no. Let's get this on. Like, I'm willing to talk about whatever you need to talk about. Like, let's talk now. Like, let's just work through this and then we can be happy again. We can be connected. We can go watch our show. We can go back to life being great again. Let's problem solve this, you know? And there's something, if I'm not careful, my ego can get really riled up because I don't know, I think that's the best way, you know?

26:47 It's like, no, let's work through this now. You know, let's just really, I'll talk about whatever you need to and whatever. Well, and how often in a situation like that, then are you forcing Kara to communicate or respond? Exactly. In a way that is going to be more hurtful. Yes. Because she hasn't had time to do what is required for her to communicate better. Yeah. And so however it comes out, I mean, it's raw. And sometimes honest is good. Honesty is always good. Raw is not always good. It's that difference between transparency, like full transparency and honesty. Yeah. Like you can be an honest all the time. Yeah. But there are certain ways that the conversation should go that are healthier than others. Well, and I'll be really honest too.

27:28 One aspect of this is I've been a sales guy my whole life, basically. I mean, for the last 25 years, right? And this can show up in our conversations where I can get into a mode of handling objections. Oh. Yeah. You know? And like, well, yeah, but look at it this way, you know? And like, kind of, and in some case, I feel like I'm better at it now. I'm more aware that I do this, right? And I can be more conscious of it. But, you know, when she's got a beef of some kind with me, you know, sometimes I can end up sort of talking up a storm. She feels just kind of overwhelmed by the case I'm making. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like forcing her to think and act and respond in the moment. Yeah. And so she feels even more overwhelmed, right? So this is just one of the dynamics that we struggle with.

28:11 But we've gotten better at it though. She's made me very aware of what I have. I've, you know, it took me about 10 years, but mine's similar. I don't know if it's selling. It's just that challenger. Yeah. I can get really good at conveying my perspective. Yeah. And then people can over my life feel overwhelmed. Yeah. Like I think in some ways, like I don't want to speak for my wife, but she's communicated something to the extent of like it diminishes her perspective. Oh, Like I've communicated in such a way, like built my case so well. Yeah. Cause I'm pretty articulate that it then makes it difficult for her to like stand her ground. Yeah. Like, and I don't know if she would say that like, she's all of a sudden second guessing her perspective as much as she just is overwhelmed by how well I came at the argument that she feels ill-equipped to really communicate what I need to hear because I've kind of overwhelmed So it's less about selling and it's just more like that's, I fight for my cause.

29:10 Yeah. And I'm pretty damn good at verbally standing up for myself. Yeah. And that can overwhelm the other person, you know? It diminishes. Well, yeah. It's not good, you know? Well, that's definitely been a dynamic in our life too. You know, I think the net effect is I got my point and my perspective across and she ended up feeling unseen. Yeah. And unheard and not understood. Yeah. I've had the same issue with my daughter. My daughter has often told me, she's like, Dad, I feel like when I bring a problem or a frustration I have with you or an issue from a previous conversation or something, that you're super quick to explain why it's not true and it's not real. You know, like she conveys like a way I made her feel or something I said.

29:52 Yeah. And my instinct is to jump to, whoa, that's totally not what I meant. Yeah. And to me, it's like perfectly logical that, yeah, sometimes we misunderstand each other. And this is one of those cases. And so now that you know that that's not true. Yeah. We're good. Now I just want you to be okay. Yeah. Like that's my objective is, oh, gosh, honey, I'm really sorry. That's totally not what I meant. Yeah. And so now will you please be okay? Yeah. And not be angry with me, irritated, feel sad, all the things. And let's just go have a nice dinner now. Yeah. Yeah. And it's taken me a long time to realize in a lot of cases, it's actually not about what's true. You know?

30:32 Yeah. Yeah. That's been a very hard thing for me to learn and accept in relationships is like, and of course we hear like the talking heads and stuff talk about that. Would you rather be right? Or would you rather be connected? Would you rather have a good marriage? Would you rather be right? And so it's like, we know these things and yet there's just, sometimes it's so subtle. Our ego is just so quick to be like, well, yeah, but that's not what I meant. I'm not wrong. Like nothing's wrong with me. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings because that's not what I meant. That's not how I said it. You know? Well, it's funny that you say that because I think one of the things that we've, let's see, I'm trying to, how I want to put this. So one of the things that we've tried to prioritize with HHB is that we really believe fairly strongly, believe fairly strongly.

31:15 Is that even, we believe strongly that it's very difficult to successfully compartmentalize Yeah. Right. Like we are still showing up all of who we are and all the buckets and the good things, the baggage, the bad things. And so you can't act as if those things aren't overlapping. And it's funny how we continue to default, though, to this attempt to compartmentalize example being like what you're talking about. If you and I were talking about employee engagement right now or customer success, you would be all about the fact that perception is reality. Oh, totally. Right? Like it would not be an argument. You'd be like, hey, the customer's perception is the reality.

31:55 So what are we doing to control that perception, therefore controlling that reality, right? But it's funny because as soon as we start talking about at-home relationships, now all of a sudden perception is not reality. And it's not okay for someone to have a perception that's different than ours. And that's where what you're talking about comes into play. And I do this too. I want to show the facts. I want to show it. This time frame, you said X. I said X. This isn't right. This is black. This is white. But the reality... Yeah.

32:44 behaviors as the people in your personal sphere too. It's just funny. I think it's sometimes we don't do a great job of trying to communicate, articulate this value system that we have where the HHB show was built on the sense of... And I think sometimes people listen to our show. And if you just have not been consistent and you jump around, you're probably going like, what is the goal? Because sometimes these guys are talking about money. And other days they're talking about engagement, going hunting. One time they're talking. It's because we are full people. We have head, heart, and boot structures. We do things. We produce things. We behave in certain ways.

33:25 We have heart struggles. We fight things in our brain the way that we process and see the world. You can't segregate those things. And I think part of what, you know, we just try to do a good job with the show is understanding that and getting into all these buckets here. I'll get off the preacher wagon here. But so I think like an encouragement for myself and for you is let's just try to hold on that people are people. Our spouses are still people. Our employees are still people. Our kids. We still have to look at the engagements that we're having, both professionally and personally, and just understand, what's the human element here? You know what I mean? Responding to that versus the other. Yeah.

34:05 It reminds me, and I brought this up a bunch of times, probably some people were like, oh, you're just going to talk about Jim Dethmer again. But it does, it reminds me for a while that I was really hot on him. Now I'm on the Savannah bananas. Yeah, man, you are. Jesse, Jesse Cole. I get latched onto these guys. Yeah. Mainly because they. Does he have a fan club? Because I feel like you'd be at the top of the heat. I don't know. I think a lot of his ego because like they're saying something that I already think and I'm like, oh yeah, that must mean I'm wrong. Damn right. Yeah, whatever. But Jim Dethmer talked about this in that feedback rich environment. Yeah. Podcasts on the Knowledge Project. And he basically said, you know, what we tend to do is we tend to filter people's feedback. We're judging, first of all, is it true? We're judging the deliverer of that message.

34:48 Are they as educated as me? Are they as smart as me? Or have they been at the company long enough to really know what they're talking about? We have all these subconscious filters that we apply to feedback from our people. And I'm sure that all of this applies to personal relationships too. Yeah. But he said, and this has always stuck with me, he said the best leaders are ones that when they receive a piece of feedback, they drop the filters and they simply ask, how does this apply to me? Yeah, I remember you talking about that. Or this situation or our business or whatever. How is this true? So not is it true, but beginning at this place of how is this true? Or how it's not, right? Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And even as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about this exchange that Kara and I had this morning.

35:31 And I had a particular, I was locked in on why this wasn't true or why whatever. Why what she was saying didn't make sense or why we were just missing each other. Yeah. And I felt misunderstood. You know, it's usually part of it is I feel misunderstood. I feel like she's hearing one thing and I'm trying to put a different thing, whatever. Yeah. And I think it's just so helpful to step back and, you know, with Jim Dethmer's advice and be like, okay, how is what she's saying true? And what can I take from this? What can I understand about this, about how she's experiencing me? That's probably a good place to just hang and like close it up because I think that's something that somebody can put into action tomorrow.

36:13 Yeah. And it's a good baby step. I had the same thing yesterday. We have a referral partner that we work with. And we had a little bit of a snafu that unfolded. It was just one of these series of unfortunate events where it's like, I screwed up on something and then the universe screwed up. And then my ego got involved. And then it's possible their egos got involved. And I was listening to this conversation and I was feeling so defensive. And even now as we're processing this, I'm thinking about that conversation. And I'm like, oh... I missed an opportunity. I missed an opportunity to really just sit in their input and really just process, okay, yeah, how is that true? Oh, it's definitely true. Yeah. What they're saying is the spirit of.

36:55 Yeah. Like, what's the spirit of the thing the person is saying versus the fact or the individual details? Like, what's the overarching perception of the video? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Like what's the overall message or the hashtag and how can I learn from that? Yeah. You know? Yeah. God, it's really hard, dude. It's so embarrassing when you fail to do that and you get out of that meeting and then you take that perspective and you're like, oh, I could do that differently. You know, can I hit replay? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Unfortunately, now it's just all going to be about apologizing. Hey, honey. Sorry. Yeah. Caught up in my head, judging you and what you were saying.

37:37 I wasn't listening very well. Geez. Sorry. What about this is true? What about this is true? I've thought about it. Turns out this, this, and this was totally true. And you were, hey, how can I make it up to you? How do we hit refresh? Yeah. Love it, dude. Well, we're all failing forward in one way or another. So we are loving marriage. That's right. All right. Thanks for hanging out with us. All right. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show, but you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever.

38:19 It all helps. Thanks for listening.