The Other Woman Part 2: Interview with “The Dadvocate”

0:00 The content of this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosting guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of any affiliated organizations or institutions. While we strive to provide accurate and up to date information, we cannot guarantee the completeness, reliability, or suitability of the information discussed. The podcast does not constitute professional advice, and listeners are encouraged to see guidance from qualified professionals regarding any specific issues or concerns. We are not liable for any actions taken based on the content provided in this podcast. This case may not have been decided in all persons discussed in this podcast or assumed innocent until proving guilty in a court of law. By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge that you understand and accept these terms. Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite.

1:17 I am your host, Jim Chapman, and we are back with the second part in our The Other Woman series. Today, I have a legit superstar on the show, but before I introduce her, I want to let all of y'all know how I came across her. So a listener reaches out to me a few weeks ago and asked if I was familiar with a civil case filed by a web community called the Otherwoman Inthwife dot com, which honestly I was not, so they suggested I look into it. They were thinking it was going to be a good story for me to cover, so I did, and through this research, I'm led to a series of tiktoks. And the whole time I'm watching these tiktoks, I'm thinking three things. First, I'm thinking, holy shit, this is a wild ass story. Second, I'm thinking this TikTok creator is really good at what she does. And third, I'm thinking this TikTok creator has the most awesome hair color I have ever seen in my entire life. True story, And we're going to put this on video as well for the Patreon, so you can check that out. But with all of that, I want to introduce you to Louren. Everybody, and I mean everybody, millions of followers in fact know her as advocate. Welcome to Exposed.

2:47 Thank you, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited because literally, when I do Expose it's all about the research, and you may my research very easy. So thank you for doing that homework for me and make it so simple. It's really difficult, especially with a case like this, to even articulate it simply enough to put it into a short or a real So yeah, thank you for because it was challenging. But that's why I have, you know, the long form videos and the shorts, but it's a lot harder to make a short. Yeah. Look, it will take me literally like an hour to do a TikTok video because I'll get halfway through and then get aggravated and start over. I'm like, the angle ain't right?

3:39 So true. People will ask like how long does it take you to film a short? And it's like, you know, you're only seeing ninety seconds, but there's a lot. Yeah, I can actually go into it one hundred percent. Now, before we get into what we're going to talk about kind of extensively today with this part two, I want to give listeners maybe a view from fifty thousand feet of who you are and what you do. Maybe how did you get into doing this? Oh? Yeah, so I'm originally the advocate is kind of my handle, and I originally started talking about family court issues. You know, I married a single father, and so I kind of watched him get put through the ringer despite seemingly doing everything right. You know, he kind of became a father unexpectedly, and yet he moved two hundred and fifty miles away to go be as close to this kid as possible, was paying the child support, showing up for all the sports, the events, seeing this kid every single day. And so when one of my friends was like, you should really date this guy. He really likes you have so many common interests, I was like, yeah, but he's a dad like that. That's scary, you know, right.

4:46 I saw him with his kid every single day, and I thought it was amazing. And then it was like the second that he was like, hey, I'm serious about someone, there's going to be a new woman involved in our child's life. Everything changed. And this was when I learned like what a wild West family court can be. And I learned that, you know, if you are an unmarried father, you don't have custody in forty five out of fifty states, and so the only thing you can really fight for is visitation. If you want custody, you have to prove that they're unfit. Started finding out all this other stuff started snowballing into like, you know, you, even if you prove that you're not the biological father, but you signed the birth certificate, that's your sentence for paying child support for the rest of your life. I just went down a rabbit hole. So basically, I was like, you know, I really want to be a voice for other people who are kind of silently suffering in this space of like crazy family, court men, women, children, everybody is getting messed up by this stuff. And that kind of snowballed itself into then talking about kind of difficult to discuss marital issues, relationship issues. I often call it like joking about the stuff we fight about.

6:00 Yeah. Yeah. And so this case in particular, I couldn't tell you exactly how I found Chelsea or what the exact video is, but I think I remember the exact video. I found this video of this lady who proudly, smugly calls herself the other woman and the wife, and I you know that's got to be. On purpose to me, Yeah, yes, totally. How her personality comes off, I mean just arrogant, you know. Yeah, And she's singing along to a bo Burnham song, which is the song itself is pointing out flaws and feminist logic. There's like this whole lyric about like, you know, you saw a spider and you expected me to take care of it, and yet you're supposed to be the strong independent woman. Essentially is like the joke of the song.

6:58 And she does this thing where she changes the lyrics to fit an affair, and it was all stuff like, you know, you claim that you love me and yet you won't let me cheat on you, And I'm like, what is this lodge? You know? Like she has this very It's funny. A long time ago, I found this website that someone made called the New Age Hippie Bullshit Generator right translator for like hippie rhetoric, and I feel like that's what she is using to justify affairs, because the more I dove into her content, the more is her being like, oh, you're not a cheater, You're a person experiencing infidelity. And I'm like what. And yet simultaneously, while my brain is going this is so obviously insane, I'm looking and I'm seeing like almost one hundred thousand followers, and I don't know if she like was filtering the comments, but on a lot of these videos it felt like there was there's a lot of support. Like I would go in there and there would be people would be like, thank you, my affair saved my life, or like thank you, my affair really freed my soul. And I'm like, what what this bizarre? And so I decided this was a few months ago. You know, I do my live streams, and I'll usually go live for like three maybe four hours at a time with my homies and the chat, and I decided I'm going to cover Chelsea Smallwood and

8:31 the other woman and the wife because I just felt like there was so much to pick apart. I'm like, really, look at this lady, Like these videos are ridiculous, and I just wanted to criticize all the things that I was seeing, the fallacies that were happening. And I did the stream, had a great time with it, didn't even get to cover half of what I wanted to, honestly, and all of a sudden, my email just starts pouring in from essentially the victims of Chelsea Smallwood. It was like that scene from Mean Girls where they're all in the cafeteria and who here has been personally victimized by Regeta George, and everyone raises there, yes, and what I had pieced together from all these dozens and dozens of betrayed spouses, I'm hearing the craziest stories, Like I'm hearing from men who find out through like a calendar event, their wives being like, oh, important, like work meeting, and they come to find out it's a meeting on this other woman website and that's how they found out that their wife is cheating on them. I'm hearing from wives who are like yeah, Like these women were all publicly making fun of me. They would take my comments about being a hurt spouse, and I'm piecing all this all together.

9:50 I saw some of these videos, you know. There was one where she was responding to a comment of a woman going as someone who is cheated on there is no good reason to she and she responds to it. She goes verry smuggly as someone who has she did on someone. I don't care, O. God, is so just typical of what you would think. That's exactly what you would think. She would say, you know, just I will say this. When I was putting together my episode, one thing that she did, and we'll kind of talk about that a little bit, was she apparently mass deleted a bunch of things on her TikTok around the same time that I was prepping for that episode.

10:38 And one of the things, so I lacked a lot of context in a lot of cases, you know, Like I knew about the yeah right, And I knew about the text message that she had read originally that related to the lady that she was suing, which is ironic in and of itself, but that she read a text and that it was verbatim, But I didn't have the actual text, So all I knew was kind of the cold hard fact of it. Out of the lawsuit that was mentioned that being said, you did a video and you happen to save that. It must have saved the TikTok at some point because you did a video where you showed it, and oh man, when I tell y'all, it was one of the most condescending things, the way that she was reading it. When I didn't have the context, I'm like, well, I mean, you can read a text.

11:39 It's you know, there's nothing illegal technically about that. Maybe morally wrong, but legally you can read a text. However, I didn't have the context of how she was reading it. It was I guess the term bitchy would be kind of light for that. It was very condescending, very condescending, almost making fun. Well, she was making, in my opinion, making fun of Kristen for you know, even sending that text. I guess, what did you think about it? Yeah, I completely understand what you mean about how difficult this can all be to understand without context. And that's why I think it's so fascinating that, you know, I had kind of clung on to Chelsea prior when I made that three hour long live stream. I saved even more videos because there was so much that I wanted to react to, and so it was it was perfect that I ended up being that kind of crazy and such a screenshot queen and a safe because when you're doing TikTok reaction stuff for long enough and you see something like this juicy, you get in the habit of like saving right away because you never know when people are just gonna pull a Chelsea and delete all of their stuff off of the Internet. And so I'm having all of these emails and I'm like, oh, you have no idea, what's going on? Like she's been targeting this poor girl, reading her text messages and someone was like, you even read some of them, you even reacted to

13:11 some of them on your stream, and I'm like wait did I like, wait, which ones you know? And so as the days and weeks have progressed since I even found out there was a lawsuit, because that was one of the emails, like hey, did you know there's even a lawsuit involving this woman? And I'm like, no, lost in my ass down there to start trying to figure it all out, you know, and the and the more I dove in, I was like, you know that scene where Charlie Kelly from Always Sonny in Philadelphia is going crazy with the cold cord and the red string and I'm tying everything together. And that's when I started realizing because I had also taken a lot of screenshots of her comment sections because I wanted to react to the fact that like, look at these supporters, look at these people supporting this, This is crazy. And I started to like piece together the names and like see a lot of common things, and that's when I realized, like, wait, I know the husband's name. Now you know Unfortunately, it's mentioned all throughout the court records, you know, several times, and stuff like that. We've pieced these things together. Once I realized that she said Jason at the end instead of Justin, which is Kristen's husband's name, I was like, this is the one. This is the one that's referenced in the lawsuit. And what's so interesting is now we have Kristen's countersuit and we now have Chelsea's response that she's just filed on January third, And one of Kristen's big, big claims is, you know, you agreed in your terms of service of the other Woman rules. It's just so

14:42 crazy to stay out loud the rules. You know, you are not supposed to be using personal private identifying information to bully or harass other members. And yet you did, and yet Chelsea is saying no, I didn't. Well, simultaneously, you know, we have the text message referenced and saying that it was used to disparage the wife, the betrayed spouse, and paint her in a negative light. And I guess that's kind of up to opinion. But you know, your response Now that people are actually able to review the video and see the video. I think it's a pretty common agreement that she's painting the wife to look like, Oh, you're the crazy one, you're the delusional one to think that this isn't a valid romance.

15:32 There's no doubt about it, especially the way, and that's why I prefaced how just rudely it was read. Uh, you can tell by the condescending nature what the intent was there. There's no doubt about it. This wasn't someone on ABC News just reading a news article and having no emotion one way or the other. You know, this was this was absolutely, in my opinion, intent to disparage someone and really just just be ugly, just destroy them even more. And people forget, or some people forget, especially the people on her site, forget that there are victims on the side of this woman was cheated on. She's going through enough. She's going through enough just with that alone breaks most people.

16:29 And you know, it's funny you say that too, before I get into like especially the part of that video and reading the text messages. Just that really pissed me off. But it's funny you say that and address that too, these real victims. It's wild to me that Chelsea would not expect such a strong counter suit when we have been hearing all our lives hell, hath no fury like a woman scorn? You really think you can with betrayed spouses and they're not gonna right. Yeah, I don't want I don't want the brun into that. You know. Uh, I have enough women in my life that I know. I don't want to piss them off, and they will come for you. And look, you know in that lawsuit we also mentioned, uh, pictures of children involved.

17:25 I'm a bear comes out. Yeah, I mean that. Then it's really serious. Then it's uh, I'm really gonna come at you hard and heavy. I think that from and I'm totally just spitballing here, but I think from Chelsea's standpoint, she thought that Kristen was going to be very intimidated because maybe she's a lawyer, you know, a company and I've got all these lawyers, and uh, I'm gonna intimidate you by by slapping you with this lawsuit and you're not gonna have a response that you're just going to shut up and whatever. And that's not what happened. Obviously.

18:05 She even tried that with you a little bit. I was gonna say it continues to not happen because she hit me with the seasoned desist. That is crazy. I'm gonna frame it. You should frame it. You should frame it that there is no world that she could even push that in a courter wall you there's nothing wrong with you reporting on a lawsuit. You don't have to cease and desist. But what I loved about what you did was you came right back at her, and you're like, you know, a nitpicking the thing apart. All of the claims were ridiculous. First of all, you're not going to come at me and say that I defamed you. You can't come on the internet, go on the most public and popular social media website and make a real called all the things your husband did with me while he was in an affair, cheating on you while dancing and mocking to the trade spouses, and say I ruined your image by telling the people that you did that. Please. Second of all, she tries to claim in the cease and desist that because I used the words in one of my YouTube videos that I snuck into her community, that that is an admission that I joined her community and I'm now legally bind by her terms of service, and I was like, I literally just met that. I went into your comment section and literally, in the same video that she cites, I said the multiple times I've never been in this community. I didn't

19:38 join the community. I looked into joining the community, but I never joined the community, over and over and over again. So it's like, that's your evidence is kind of contradicting. Yeah, you don't have to follow her rules. That was crazy, absolutely insane. In another example of her trying to exert a four for someone, in my opinion, by using legal tactics as a fear tactic, she's trying to scare you. Mortually at every turn that she has been trying to bully people and silence them and put them down and make them feel inferior. She just keeps telling on herself and digging her own grave because by just spitballing and throwing darts and hoping to see where they land. By like trying to gauge my reaction of accusing me of joining her website secretly, what she is revealing is that she has literally no idea who is in and out of her website. She has no clue her Her website is so insecure And this is another big point that I'm trying to drive home is that not only is the entire premise immoral, but even if you are a cheater who's looking for like a safe space to go, this isn't.

20:58 It right now? They're they're a bad influence. Let's put it that way. They're not even good for cheaters if. You're looking for that, like even if you are looking to marinate in that to be like how can I get better at this? How can I become a more sneaky cheater? Like It's so it's still not smart for you to do that, because we've seen that this place has experienced data breaches. I've heard multiple people say, you know, like I would love to join anonymously just to see what's happening. We saw what happened with Ashley Madison getting a data breach, and we've seen Chelsea admit herself she doesn't know what's going on, she doesn't know who's actually joining or not. You know, I would not feel good about joining such a community knowing how what's the word I'm looking for in danger? I guess explosively flammable.

21:55 It is right, and you know, before I'm really looked into it. I questioned the success of it because I just I just couldn't believe. I couldn't believe that a community like that could be really that successful. Like how many people are actually joining? And from what you said, they definitely have members they or did at some point. Yeah, I could only venture a guess based on you know, how many people it seemed were like commenting on her videos or speaking from that perspective. But I will say this, you know, at this current moment, if there is a sudden influx of members, like I would not look at that as a good thing.

22:41 Yeah, I would not. I would not either. And as a matter of fact, she you posted about a rebrand that she did, and you were ready for the big reveal, right, the big announcement of all these great things, which from her standpoint to me, is not really something she'd want to be bragging on right now, because her claim is that her business was hurt by all these accusations as she laid on Kristen. However, she's having the best year she ever had and we're you know, we're making money. Ham'm ever fist and how do you you know, how do you make those two things make sense? They can't.

23:30 Either you're losing money or you're not. I don't think this woman is capable of a rebrand. And it's been so ironic to me that her whole advertised purpose is to help others heal from infidelity. But how can you claim that you're even able to do that when you clearly have not yourself healed from infidelity? If it's been ten years since the affair, since this man left his wife for you, and you're supposed to have won, and yet here you are, still on the internet making these dancing videos, trying to get one over on her, and you know, shape this narrative that she is the problem. You know, she's on this Jubilee panel saying, God, this was the worst. She says on the Jubilee panel of is it always wrong to cheat? That there are no victims in an affair, Everyone plays a role. He made him cheat. Why did you? Why did you have to make your wife cheat on you? Come on? You know, and here she is with this this rebrand, right. I've looked at some of her content. She's put up some new videos that's supposed to be part of the rebrand, and yet nothing seems to have changed. She got really mad at me and the seasoned assist for saying that her company seems to be teaching cheaters a better rhetoric to guess like their spouses with. She didn't like that label of it all. But all of her new content is excuses for cheating. Essentially, she uses the Ashley Madison

25:02 situation and she's like, well, you know, someone on alive for themselves as a result of being outed as a cheater, So that's why you can't out cheaters. And I'm like, okay, okay, So you know what, Murdering people brings people a lot of shame, So it's best if we just don't tell people that they murdered because I want them to feel her. That'll cause pain, right. Are you kidding me? Or what's another one of her excuses she's come out with now is oh, well, a lot of the women that I counsel, she generously calls life coaching counseling. Uh. She tries really hard to like like basically fan fiction her way into being a therapist. She's just a lot of the women that I counsel, they've been threatened that if they leave, you know, he'll hurt her. And it's like, well, if you're really in a situation like that, don't you think you're making it ten times more dangerous by having an affair instead.

26:03 Yeah, and being part of and being part of a website that, uh, you know, I don't want to I don't want I don't know. I have no direct knowledge of whether they encourage it or how it exactly works in that community. But being a part of that site is increasing your risk. There's a more likelihood that you're going to get caught the more steps you're taking. And and so you know, nobody is saying, I'm sure there are people in this world and that have cheated in their life and they're not necessarily the most horrible people in the world. They made a mistake. I know people that have worked out marriages after an affair, uh, because it was a signal of something else was wrong in the marriage. And you know, sometimes it's maturity. Sometimes it's just dumb ass decisions. Whatever. Somebody made a dumb ass decision.

26:59 But when you join a community to get that reassurance that it's okay that you did it, you're getting the wrong advice. That would be like a serial killer going to another serial killer and saying, look, I mean, we both like to kill people. You know, we're normal. It's okay to do this. I can relate to you killing people. You're getting advice from other people that are doing the same thing. Why don't you go to somebody that's going to take you the truth that it's wrong and that here's how you need to, you know, work on it, work on your marriage. Sort of funny. Yeah, that's exactly what I've been thinking of.

27:40 It's like if instead of alcoholics anonymous, where like you're taking steps to get out of it, you just go drinking with a bunch of other people who have already admitted they have alcohol problems. But you're like, well, we don't want to feel shame about this, so we'll just talk about drinking while drinking for one of us that's drinking. Yeah great, Yeah, I mean that's exactly what it is. Uh. You know, she she claims to counsel people. I don't know if she uses that term. Uh, but she doesn't have a degree in this. This isn't something. As a matter of fact, I covered her what she did before she did this. I heard she worked for like Meta for a very very small frame of time, and before that she was in a totally different sector of the world.

28:34 She wasn't, uh, you know, working as a counselor for anyone doing it. She has no education on that front, so all she has is her experience with doing it. Yeah, I mean, that's it. It's a very biased perspective which I've pieced together from watching her own content. You know, her whole shick seems to be, you know, I got a married man to leave his wife and the children they bore together away in a four in country for me and you can too write. And that's so interestingly paired with something that she vocalizes, you know now memorialized on the Jubilee panel, where she doesn't believe that it's possible for a person to cheat on someone they love, which was a very unpopular opinion on that panel. I was even like, I actually disagree with that myself, but hearing her say that plays into a lot of why I felt like her content was so dangerous, because this is just my opinion.

29:33 She seems to be of the mindset that by the time a woman is having an affair with a man, that means that neither of them actually love their spouses, and that they're actually meant for each other, and so it becomes that's the way that it has struck me. She gets very offended when people say that an affair is just limerens, that it's just an addiction to attention. She's like, no, people don't cheat on people that they're in love with. You know, what you have with you're a fair partner, is a real love and worthy of pursuing. That is so wrong. That is so wrong. And it's like, it's not to say that some people don't leave their spouse for their fair partner and it works out, but it's like.

30:17 I would and I would say it's a very low percentage. Uh. And I will also say, you know, obviously she's a female. Uh. Females and males think completely differently in life. I've been married twenty six years and I still ain't figured my wife out, you know, but we we make it work and and uh and all of those things. But I can say from a man's perspective, because she she can't give a male's perspective on that. Of course, I know a lot of guys that have went down that road at one time or another in their life. And it's sadly but uh, almost none of the time was it because I love this girl and I don't love my wife anymore. And it was almost always an ego trip for them and a game. It was a I want to see if I can get this girl into me, and once the girl got into the guide, they got nervous and backed off. Sometimes emotional cheating. Yes, but she is so far off off the beaten path, saying that that doesn't happen. That people cheat because they're looking for love in another direction, not the ones, at least that I know that I have done that.

31:36 Yeah, it's very much. Are you at all familiar with the whole twin flames cults? I am somewhat familiar with. Explain it for our audience. Yeah, yeah, I'll try to TLDR short story. So this was kind of They obviously didn't advertise as a cult. Cults typically do not advertise themselves as cults, but they were a highly religious group that on the idea that every person has a twin flame and that person is your true love. And what it essentially turned into was coupling the strong dependence on religion that a lot of vulnerable or deeply indoctrinated people have with their also vulnerable and indoctrinated ideas of love and people who were deeply craving love, and so what it kind of turned into was like a deeply religious matchmaking service where it was like, we can find your love for you, and we promised this as your love for you. God says it's the love for you. So be together and keep doing to our church and tell everybody that you found your love through us. And it got like there were just so many off branches, like they even had run out of men at one point, so they told one of the women, Okay, well you know your twin flame is this other woman, but it's only because one of you is supposed to be a man, So pick who's going to transition. And everyone's like wait, So the whole parallel that myself and some others are drawing with this now is with these

33:06 kinds of ideas of like, well, if you cheat, it means you can't love your spouse, and so it's really worth it to pursue this relationship with this person. It makes you wonder, like, what's really going on with these coaching calls, what's really going on with this community? Is Chelsea taking advantage of vulnerable people in the peak of their affair, who are desperate for some kind of answer and for someone to tell them something other than it's not going to work out. You're not going to end up with them long term. And she's like, no, you can't. You can end up with your fair partner. They will leave their wife and children for you. Eventually. You just gotta hop on a coaching call. You just gotta someone with, someone with some experience. And obviously I've never paid for a coaching call. I do not know what this entails, but I have her her talk to people on podcasts.

34:02 I've heard her, you know, react to comments and videos and things like this, and I remember on one of them she has this lady Mama call who now does not like me on Facebook had ticktag if you see some of those updates. She's on the podcast and she's talking about her like long affair with a married man and how she meets him on a dating website and she finds out that he's talking to all these other women. And at one point, Chelsea's like, well, how do you know that you you weren't special to him? How do you know that you like worked the one for him? And she's like because I met him on a dating website where a bunch of other people lying about being married.

34:42 Like it really does feel like she's trying to convince people like, no, you belong with this person, not their stupid dumb wife. You wouldn't have cheated if she was a decent person. She must be the problem, right And you know it said was are you bring that up to me? When I see all of this from fifty thousand feet, I look at it and I'm like, how there's no shame with these people that are in this, in this community. You would think if they're gonna go ahead and take that step and be in it, they would want no one to know about it. They're out there doing podcast with her. Yeah, let's get on a podcast and talk about how awesome I am for cheating with this married man, you know, and wrecking an entire home and doing all these things. They're proud of it. How that to me is It's like, what world are we living in that you don't even try to hide.

35:42 It's all part of it. Literally, Truly, I hate to keep calling it a cult, but the more I've over in this, like when I first started getting into it, the initial emails people were like, you have no idea, it's like a cult, and I'm like, okay, you're being a little dramatic. And then as the days went on, I was like, this is like a cult, convinced that it's like the most beautiful part about it is with a lot of these cults, it usually takes time to trick the people into like revealing all of their secrets. But Chelsea's kind of a genius because she's built it directly into the business model. Is the moment you join, you're giving up your deepest, darkest secrets by admitting that you're cheating on your husband or you know, with some other person's spouse. Like he's already got that part out of the way. And you know, the more you analyze this, it just feels like every way that she designed this business is designed to allow her to farm this affair drama from people and use it for her own monetized purposes on TikTok, on her podcast without Repercussion, you can see it in the terms of service that I've now over analyzed. It has all this stuff of like your story maybe used for things and you allow that to happen.

36:54 And the one that I just noticed is that when you join, you agree that you will never be part of a class action lawsuit. Really, yes, think about that with Ashley Madison. Tons of those people whose data was leaked in the breach, they got major payouts because of a class action lawsuit. Chelsea, you learned from that, And I was like, I'm not going to let any of these people get a red set when I fuck them over her. Yeah, and that is a total fuck over. And you know it's nobody. Nobody almost ever reads terms of service right you join a website. If if I sign up for Amazon or eBay or something like that, I'm not going to read the terms of service. But if you're signing up for a cheating website, you may want to read them. You may want to read them and review them.

37:44 And this is a good example of someone that has completely taken away your legal right to recourse through her terms of service should you seek that? And that's scary, that's that's you know. I signed a contract years ago when I first started podcasting for a company and I'm not going to name the company obviously, but one of the terms of that contract had a non disparagement clause, and I had no idea what non disparagement was, I assumed, Yeah, with disparagement, whether they did it or not, you can never talk about it. So they could totally screw you over, and you have all the proof in the world of that, and you can never speak of that company screwing you over.

38:35 Most people don't do their homework. Unfortunately, when they signed these things, I was one of them. I learned from it, and when I was out of that contract, I said, I'll never sign a non disparagement again because that almost gives someone a license to screw you over. You know, it's just the way of the world in that industry. But I'll tell you I made a chart because when I when I did my podcast, it was almost there were so many moving parts that people would message me and say, well, who was married to who? And And you also did your video is hilarious where you had the drawings of and you're like, Okay, I'm gonna show you exactly this is Kristen. She's married to Jason. Jason cheats on Kristin with Olivia, and you go through the whole, the whole deal. It is just awesome. I'm going to actually link y'all some of the her tiktoks to the description of this video, so you can go check out what we're talking about. But uh, I call it the cheating tree, and it's I most like the family tree, but it's the cheating tree, and it really breaks down.

39:49 I did not realize that Olivia was also married until you did that video. That was another thing that so many pieces keep clicking together, and like the retrospect of it all as I'm going through this, and you know, what I had understood was that, you know, Olivia was recently divorced and that was why she was receiving so much comfort from Kristen's home. I did not realize that the affair began before her divorce, and so there were many many pieces to the messy story. But one thing I do want to clear up is there was some confusion. Some people believe that Kristin also cheated.

40:33 And from everything that I have heard, there is no reason for me or anyone to believe that Kristin cheated. Yeah, and if there were any evidence or in my opinion, if that would have been true, certainly, certainly Olivia and Chelsea would let that be known. Right at this point, they would have solid proof that she was cheating as well. And because they're not hesitating to put anything out there that they have to further embarrass this person. He's been through a lot as it is. And can we talk about this this thruple defense that is being like perpetuated in the comments is Chelsea's supporters while while few in number are all over these videos trying to make this argument. Oh well, Kristen actually invited Olivia into her marital bed to have a thruple and got upset when Jason chose Olivia, and that's what blew this up. And so how can you welcome a woman into your marital bed and expect to not get cheated on?

41:46 Let's break that one apart. Pieces. There's a lot to talk about when it when it comes to consent, ladies, let's start here to all of these these mothers of children making this argument. By the way, if you tell a man that he can have sex with you one time, does that mean that he can grab your body into whatever he wants with it from now until all of eternity, no matter what, obviously fing and not so even if and there is once again no evidence to point to this way outside of I'll actually tell you about one picture that they're desperately trying to use as evidence that a thripple definitely occurred, and that's why Kristen deserves all of this. Apparently, even if Kristen said, you know what, let's try opening this up a little bit, that doesn't mean that she's like, okay, Well, that means that I deserve it if people go behind my back and then post about it to a private community with identifying the photos of myself used for comparison purposes for strangers to say who's hotter the wife or the lady the husband's cheating with? Like, yeah, obviously that does not excuse the rest of those things. And the fact that like I have to explain this to grown women tells me we need more access to mental health care.

43:15 Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's absolutely insane. And look, those are obviously two different things that they are conflating. Uh, if if they were in well let's play Devil's advocate, because we're kind of kind of heating on that. If they were swingers and this third person, Hey, we're going to have a swing night, and and this third person came in their bed and and they had this swing night, whatever, even swingers will say that without permission is cheating. So if it happened one time, that doesn't mean okay, from here to the end of time, you can screw my best friend. That just means I let you screw my best friend this one time. Yes, I have.

44:06 A ton of polyamorous people in the comments who are like. No, damn yeah, they would be insulted by that comment. I mean, I mean that a swinging community would be offended about that. I've interviewed people in that community. That's that's uh definitely something that that is against their rules. I guess you could say. But and get this. Here's the other hilarious part. As I say, every time they try to bully these betrayed spouses, they just tell on themselves while simultaneously giving Kristen all the rope to hang them with. Because in this whole Thruttle accusation, one thing that surfaced is these like troll anonymous accounts are posting this picture that I guess got taken during a vacation that Kristin had invited Olivia on.

44:55 This is another one of those things they're like, well, what did you expect to happen when you invite a divorced woman, a single divorced woman on a beach vacation with you and your husband. It's like, I don't know, mind not that I expected to have fun with my recently divorced friend on a beach vacation. What are you talking about? And there's a picture I guess that they took on one of those big chairs. Jason's in the middle and he's got his hands on both ladies like knees, and they're like, this is it. This is the proof that Kristen consented to everything. Gosh, but guys, first of all, no one agrees that even if they were a threattle that it would justify any of this. But second of all, all you're doing is proving that photos of the three of these people that have never been posted publicly are somehow being disseminated.

45:48 Yeah, yeah, how are they being. How did you get this photo if if not for a private community leading a harassment campaign against a betrayed spouse. Yeah, answer that if you give someone enough time to tell on themselves, they always do. And it seems like in the especially in the comments you had posted. H And you mentioned earlier about the comment where uh, I believe it was Olivia Nicko Damus had said, you know, let's look at side by side comparison fetoes, which that speaks to her mindset on all this. And if she's going to do that on TikTok, she's certainly going to do that in a private community, right yep.

46:37 And that's the thing too, is they It seems to me like this community kind of was leading the proverbial TikTok streets unchecked for like the last year. Like when you when you hit your right niche on TikTok, you really do manage to kind of preserve that bubble, right, Like, if you're a man and you speak on men's issues, it's very rare that you'll get sent into like the feminist algorithm where they'll cheat you up and spit. You out just like the end first. You know, if you have a very like female heavy like we are we are a woman audience, like, they're not going to feed you to like the manosphere or anything either. So I think she found her niche and then whenever the betrayed spouses would try to stick up for themselves or decry her platform, they were kind of buried underneath her fan base, and it took a really long time for people to notice what was happening and to start saying things. But now that someone you know, like myself who happens to have a platform, is talking about this, I'm learning that there was never a shortage of Chelsea haters at all, because they're all in my inbox and they're like, I've got screenshots for you, I've got saved videos for you, like I have been waiting, yeah on this stuff. Yeah, I really think she underestimated Kristen and the betrayed spouse an anti cheating community in general.

48:12 I agree one hundred percent. And you know, enough cannot be said for the influence that you have been able to help this person and help navigate this story. Uh, it is only through followings, large followings. You have an extremely large following, very impressive. Those things are required because the power that you know, Kristen would have had by herself navigating all this, it would have it would have been something that I could see. Uh, the other woman and the wife and I'm not saying they did this legally, but I'm not saying that they did it, but I can see them looking at that and saying, this is just one small person who is now kind of affecting our business or whatever however she would put it. And so we're going to intimidate the absolute shit out of her to where she will shut up. That's how those people operate. But they can't shut you and I up because we we will, in my opinion, a lot more power than she does. And uh, and the followings that we have a lot more massive. Sorry sorry other woman, but it's fact because I've already looked at some things.

49:40 But with that, it's important that those people have a voice. And that's really what we're getting at with doing all of this. Our audience wants to know about it. People need to know about it. It is not normal. It's not normal to promote uh, a safe community for cheaters or whatever she calls it. It's it's uh, you're basically getting advice from this serkillar. I mean, you're you're the person getting advice from someone who is is looking at one side of that whole issue, and certainly not.

50:23 The way that she is going about it, because, like you said earlier, I think most people are not completely you know, willing to absolutely demonize anyone who cheats, right, you know, we may not choose to stay with a cheater. But I think ultimately, you know, a lot of us don't even agree that once a cheater, always a cheater. We understand that cheating has nuance, and I don't think that anyone who is against what Chelsea is doing is denying the truth that cheating has nuance. However, the way that she's going about it, the rage bait, the playing on the raw triggers of betrayed spouses for views, for clicks, the way she seems to like hunt a fair drama and then like it gets so giddy to regale in it and decide how dumb these betrayed spouses are. That's that's not the right place for it, because there there are right places right. First of all, there's simple therapy.

51:26 You know. One of the points that I made in my video is if you go to any therapist, like I can understand thinking, oh, I want someone who's going to tell me they're not going to judge me for cheating, like I don't want to feel judged or shamed. I can understand feeling that way. If you tell any therapist that you cheated, no one's going to be rate you. They'll hold the same safe space for you and be hypoprotected, so your stories can't be used in any shorts or reels or podcasts. Okay, as opposed, you're just telling some stranger on the internet who is not going to be able to keep your shit safe or you know, demonize one sorry or the other. Like there's one creator who does what Chelsea wants to do, but she actually does it correctly. And it's a woman named Lauren LaRusso who is an affair recovery specialist and she actually is a licensed therapist. She does have real experience with infidelity, not meaning that she was the cheater, but was cheated on.

52:32 And yet she still takes cheating clients on without judgment or shame to help them navigate their affair properly. And if you watch her videos, at no point in time is she like your stupid wife. Don't you know you're getting played while he's doing the same exact things in me? And did you know that when he calls you, I listen to every conversation, which I don't know how that's productive? Right? How does the helped people heal from affairs? Exactly? So bizarre, so bizarre, and so what is next? Do you think for this. Obviously in a court situation, what are we waiting on next?

53:18 I guess yeah. So from a legal perspective, from everything that I've been kept keeping up with on the filing was you know, Olivia filed arman Sorry, Chelsea filed the initial suit, Kristen filed her defense and countersuit while also simultaneously pulling Olivia into it. Olivia has submitted her response. Chelsea has submitted her response. So now we're just kind of waiting for the judge to look over all of this and decide is this going to go to arbitration or is this going to go to a jury trial. Yeah, so if it goes to arbitration, we may never know what happens next. You know, a very similar case that we can actually refer two that just wrapped up very timely this week was the popular Illuminati case if you need another rabbit hole to go down, But the TLDR of this was a huge content creator with access to a lot of money, similar to Chelsea, Smallwood sues a very very small creator for defamation for very similar reasons like you ruined my image by telling people of all the depraved things that I did, and it went on and on, and it costs so much money, and ultimately they have privately settled, which some people are disappointed by, but what a lot of people see as basically a win for the defense because basically it's Illuminati saying, okay, you won, just don't tell anybody about it. So I

54:49 could see that happening in this situation where you know, maybe there's private money agreements or compensation of some kind and there is an NDA so that both parties can move forward. I could consider that a win for Kristen as long as she's not too financially put out, because at this point, you know, the dirty laundry has been aired, it cannot be unaired. The toothpaste cannot go back in the two. So at this point I would really like to see just all parties be able to settle, and like, hopefully Chelsea can learn to better handle her business and to not put herself in a position where she's gonna get sued by betrayed spouses for being so heartless and reckless with the drama with associated identities and photos spreading around.

55:40 Hopefully she puts in policy on her website, don't post pictures of people's kids, don't post the wife like that should have already been a policy. But hopefully should we learn from this and hopefully Kristin, like I said, can be financially compensated and move forward. But Chelsea is fighting arbitration. Chelsea does not want that result. She does not want a private settlement nothing. She wants this to all be in the public eye. And that is because, in my opinion, she displays a lot of behaviors of a delusional narcissist unfortunately. And so if it goes to jury trial, Chelsea's gonna have to fly from I believe, California to Miami County, Ohio, and I'm gonna go in. I don't know how it works, like if I'll be able to secure my seat, but if I have to freaking camp out in front of the courthouse at five in the morning.

56:42 A Taylor Swift concert or something. Yet, this is my show. Yeah, I'm gonna have Kristen's army shirts made. Yes, yeah. Well, and it's important to mention also, so and we talked about getting money a little bit, but obviously it's expensive. It's there's nothing cheap about going even when you're on the right side of it. It's very expensive. Lawyers are not cheap. They charge every time you turn around for everything they do. And there is a go fundme out there that I saw for Kristen, so i'll link that also in the description, So if any of my lesseners would like to help out. I mean, look, twenty thirty bucks a piece goes a long way towards towards helping with legal fees. This girl is going up against, you know, a company, and companies sometimes have funding that is just different than individuals, and so hopefully it will at least give her the peace of mind there that she can continue to fight.

57:57 Yeah, that I've been trying to link the gofund me as much as I can, but yeah, that's that's kind of where we're at. If it does go to jury trial, there is going to be what's called discovery, where both parties have their opportunity to present as much evidence as possible. And you know, that's the part that I would think that Chelsea would be wise to avoid. If I was able to dig up all this stuff public facing, you know, just all the ways in which she's really incriminated herself on her own. Yeah, then I can only imagine what Kristin, who did get inside of the community and was just jaw droppingly a gate at what she witnessed. You know, is going to be able to provide now at the same time to you know, play Devil's advocate as you mentioned earlier, at the same time, you know, Chelsea is claiming tortious interference on Kristin and saying, you know, you violated our privacy policy by taking private screenshots and sharing them.

59:06 So it's very possible that Chelsea could have her own evidence of Kristen doing this. And you know, for all we know, the judge might say, like, I don't care about all the petty affair drama shit, I care about the contract violations or did we not violate the contract? So you know, I'm curious. It could go so many different ways. And for all we know, especially like these judges after a long day who are just like so over this shit, they might look at this and be like, you know, you guys both did stuff and it just cancels each other out. Get out of my courtroom. Yeah, yeah, there's so many ways. As gay guy and so and obviously both you and I'll keep around. We're going to bring you as many updates as possible. I'm going to link your social and all your cool stuff into because I know I know my followers and they you're their type, so they're gonna definitely be checking out your content ongoing after this. And I'm telling you, she does an unbelievable job, and not just on this. I enjoyed when I watched the tiktoks on this specifically, I enjoy going back and checking out all your other stuff.

1:00:24 You're very unique in that you can do short form and long form, so y'all. She has a YouTube channel where she's got some hour long YouTube videos on there talking about different things, and you're just very unique in that way. Most creators that I come across that are as successful as you are in short form content aren't able to make that transition. You do both unbelievably well. So that's you're very welcome. It is harder than you think for most people to make that transition. You were made to do what you do. You do a great job.

1:01:06 I definitely can't agree that it is difficult. The cross platforming is difficult. Oh yeah, any kind of switch up is difficult. Oh yeah, I mean I had a and the listeners enjoy. This is just real quick story. But I had a very successful TikTok creator, very successful, and she was interested in doing a long enform podcast and she did true crime, and so I'm a producer. I produce several different large true crime podcast and so I agreed, Yeah, let's let's do it. And she came in the studio and we kind of did like a three episode test run, and I was telling her the whole time. I said, now, look, these audiences are different. So you know, if you have a million followers on TikTok, it doesn't mean they're all going to follow you to your podcast. I hope they do, because if they do and you get a million downloads, we're both swimming in it. But the likelihood of that, it's going to take a lot of time and a lot of work. And she she didn't believe me, for lack of a better term, She's like, oh, no, I know my followers. They're gonna follow me anywhere I go.

1:02:21 And when that didn't happen, she almost gave up on herself. And she was really good, but she it was hard for her to accept that. And so it is a it's tough. It is hard to do that. You have done a wonderful job of it. And so I say all that to say, peeps, go check her out, give her a follow, give her a like, tell her you saw her on this podcast, and uh, because the Advocate's a real deal. Thank you, thank you, and I will keep you guys posted with everything that I learned. Absolutely this all case goes, and even once this is over, you know, if you want to hear about relationship other funny stuff.

1:03:07 Yeah, you definitely do. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you and we're going to keep you updated. Thank you.