"Murdaugh" Episode Twenty Two | "The Stand Concludes"

0:10 Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite. I'm your host, Jim Chapman, and we are back with another mrdall series, this twenty second episode, and this is going to be the lengthiest podcast today. I'm wrapping up Alex Mardaugh's testimony with this episode. So while this episode is lengthy at some three plus hours, it's absolutely partnent that you hear it. And as has been the practice with all the episodes I've done in this mart All series, at certain points during the testimony I'll break in and discuss those points throughout the podcast. Now let's get into it. And the last time that we left you, Alec was on that stand in Creighton Water was diving in on the biggest lie of all, the fact that Alex lied to the police regarding being at those kennels. He played the video in which Elick was in the background of a snapchat his son Paul was taking and Alex's voice very distinct fussing at one of the dogs over having a chicken in his mouth. So we're gonna pick up at that point in the testimony, and in this first clip you're gonna hear prosecutor Waters further questioning the fact that he lied about being at those kennels, which remember, this is probably the biggest key

1:42 in the case because it places him at that murder scene just prior to his son and wife being killed. Waters also hammers down on his claim of movement just after discovering Paul and Maggie tragically murdered. And it is a bat of we. And here's that first club. When you picked up that chicken, was there any blood on it? I don't believe, sir. Did you wash your hands or all at that. Point in time. I don't believe that I did. And when you say you were there, you said Maggie was near nearby you Is that correct?

2:23 Right? Was she messing with the hose at all. At that time? No, she was not. Did she mess it with it the entire time that you were there, according to your new facts today. While I was there, she did not touched she. She was not fooling with a hose at all. All right, I'm gonna I'm.

3:08 Gonna put up on the screen stakes five nineteen, which is the condensed timeline. If I could have a computer input, please, it's the condensed timeline. Mister Griffin. Gemini. All right, you see that out there? H mister Murdat, Yes, alright, I'm on page five. You see that uh sell challenge. There's something on my screen? Yeah, I do see that.

3:54 Would you agree with me that it reflects no cell tower activity on your phone from six fifty tonight? Ow fo, I do agree with that. Let me ask you this one from Murdock. Did you take your phone with you down to the kennels? According to the new facts that you're testified to you yestrain today. I must not have. You must not have if this is accurate? No, SIRH is that typical for you? Sure? It is absolutely tell if and when I'm going now, it wouldn't be. It would be unusual if I was going out for any extended period of time, or if I was going. Even on the property.

4:35 If I was going somewhere for an extended period of time, I would usually have my phone. But for me to go knowing that I'm going to the kennel and coming right back, that's not unusual at all. I mean, you've heard the testimony about the service out there. The service is terrible. You have to be in a particular spot and you have to find the spot. So the answer is, you don't know whether you took it down there. I believe that I probably did it based on this data. Based on this, but unlike the photographic memory about other things, you don't remember whether or not you had your phone on you. Mister Waters, I've never claimed to have a photographic memory, but I do not specifically remember if I had my phone that night. I do not dispute it based on these on this data, and that's not unusual for me.

5:23 So it's like you don't remember, according to your new story, the last conversation you have with Maggie. No, I remember, I remember having my last conversation with Maggie. Looking at this screen, you have the map up there were on page six, and it shows you arriving back. It's Mozille at six forty two. You don't just few that now. As I cry, No, that's that's what this data appears to show. Look at the data. Moving on to page seven, you have Paul arriving about seven oh four. Is that correct?

6:10 You don't have any reason to dispute that. Well, that's what it says. He arrives at forty one forty seven Mozelle Road. Which is the address of the shop. The house is forty one fifty seven. I believe that Paul actually got there a little bit before that, but I think that's approximately accurate. I think Paul got there a little bit closer to seven o'clock. You would agree, though, that's the earliest data point that reflects his presence in Mozilla. If that's what the records show. You don't dispute that.

6:51 I don't dispute that that's if that's the earliest data point. But again, I believe he got there a little bit earlier, and I tried to look at these records to see if I could just if that could be refuted, and. I believe he got there a little closer to seven or a little bit before seven. Now that's a good point. You looked at these records a lot before you had your testimony Astrain today, didn't you, Muster Murdo. I've looked at these records other than the on Star records that just came when they were provided to me. Sure, I've looked at them. Right here, we have some steps on your phone, twenty nine steps, and then down at the bottom we have eighty nine steps. Is that consistent when you and Paul were together on the property.

7:42 I mean sure, we would go to different locations on the property. Sometimes we would get out, sometimes we wouldn't. We get out and walk around. We look at. Stuff, We do things. For example, you saw me messing with the tree. There'd be other ones. We may get out and look at a feeder mey be other ones we get out and look at how signs. Where hogs are rooty. So it would be perfectly consistent with what Paupaul and I were doing that day. And eight oh five to. Eight o nine.

8:23 Would you agree that that's the last steps recorded on your phone before nine oh two when you become a very busy beat. If that's what these records show, I see I took steps. It's record show I took steps between eight oh five and eight oh nine. Right, So would you concede then that you're at the house around eight oh nine. I would have thought so, yes, mkay. And you said Paul was already back at that point, No, I said just the opposite. When did he get there? Alright? You talking about when I left the shop and went to the house, when Maggie was there. Ye, No, As I said earlier, Paul and I were at the shop. Mmm, Maggie got home. I left Paul at the shop and I went to the house. And I think you were saying that I said, I met Paul at the house, and I said, correct.

9:23 Paul was still down at the shop when you were at the house. Correct. When I first went to the house, Paul was still at the shop, I. Believe, alright. And was Maggie there when you arrived. At the house, Yes, I believe she. Was, alright. And eight oh nine is the last steps that you have on this phone before nine oh two. Correct, that's what the data shows. Looking now at page fifteen. I'm sorry, page fourteen. Your stuff that you say when you got the house at eight o nine and Paul is still out of the shop.

10:09 But don't these records reflect that Paul is hanging with GPS dad at the house at eight oh eight. This record appears to show Paul at the house at eight oh eight. All right, So. Those records don't fat with your news story that you testified yesterday and today. Is that correct? No? I don't believe even right now, mister Watersa, that's right. I'm not saying. What you're doing is you're taking eight oh nine and saying. That I'm at the house, and I mean that may or may not be right. But what I'm saying is is that when Maggie came through, I left, and I believe that Paul stayed at the shop.

10:54 Now, did Paul come right behind me? I'm not sure. But when I when I left him, I believed that when I left to go to the house, I believe that Pause stayed at the shop for a minute. When you got to the house, did you put your phone down? I'm sure I did. Did you put it in the car in the suburban? Did I put it in the suburban when you got back to the house. Did you put it in the suburban? Suburban parked out front? The suburban would have been part wherever I parked it, which is where I believe on the side. Okay, And did you put the phone your phone in the. Suburban at that time? No, I did not. Where'd you put it? I'm not sure where I put it?

11:35 You're not sure about that either, Huh. No, I'm not sure. When I went into house, I'm not sure where I put my phone. I would think that I you know, I would think that I put it down somewhere probably by the couch. Didn't you testify yesterday when you were being asked by your lawyer about that pause at Almeda when you were living leaving and you had a very specific recollection of your phone had fallen down in the crevice and you had to pick it up, can get it out? You remember, testify unto that I do, But you don't remember what you did with your phone when you got back at this point, huh. I mean, those are two distinct different things. I'm coming in the house and I put my phone down. I don't have a routine. Spot that I put it in right on this corner or right there, you know, I would I would assume that when I went in the house, I.

12:18 Put it somewhere, either on the table you go by, going to the going to the couch. I may have taken it to the bathroom when I take a shower. It may have taken me of a few minutes to go to the shower. So I can't tell you exactly where I put it. The story is an awful specific recommend recollection when you need it to try to make the new story that the jury's hearing and everyone's hearing yesterday and today with the data, correct, But you're awful fuzzy on far more important things, aren't you?

12:59 Which which question here? I answered the first and first no, I don't believe that's convenient, and I disagree with your categorization of the description. All right, but you you remember the console story, but you don't remember where you put your phone, whether or not you took it down to the kennels, whether it was on the uh, you put it in the suburban. Don't remember any of that. But dad, going, you remember that console story, right? Well, I don't remember the console story, but you know in that suburban, and it's not the first time that it happened. But when that phone got down there, you had to go to great efforts to get it out, and you couldn't just reach over there and get it out.

13:42 All right. You say when you got to the house that Maggie was already there, Yes, okay, And we saw your last steps were in eight or nine. Well that's what you saw when this data recorded my last steps. But if you heard this testimony too, mister Waters, you know that's not a precise. That's not a precise, y'all. You heard the testimony, you know what it is. Well, how did you get back to the house remind us. From the shop. Yeah, I went in the white pickup truck. Went in the white pickup truck. Okay. And when you got into the house, where did you go?

14:24 We've already discussed this. I took a shower. Whether I did things for a moment before I went to the shower, I'm sure I talked to Maggie because she'd been gone, and if she came through the kennel, which I believe she did, we only talked briefly, so I would have talked to her, but I would have quickly gone to take a shower. Okay. Going over the page sixteen, you would agree with me that the data reflects Maggie started logging steps and her phone just connecting from the Mercedes around eight seven, team, right. I agree at age seventeen her phone ends connection to her Mercedes.

15:08 And starts logging steps. I don't see that, but I don't dispute it. All right, Well, you see the purple line talking about just connecting from the Mercedes. See, I see where you're talking about. So yeah, I see at ege seventeen her phone starts logging steps. I agree with that. Okay, So what you can see that that appears to be when she arrived. Uh No, I don't believe that's when she arrived. I believe that. I mean, it was very normal for Maggie when she's driving to jump out of the car, run inside, go to the bathroom, do things and either send me or Paul or go back or bust her, or go back to her car herself and unplurk her phone. So I mean, I agree that's when her phone's unplugged.

15:53 But I believe that Maggie got to the house a little bit before that. That's the whole reason why Paul and I went to the house. Okay, But you're saying Paul arrived after Maggie. Is that what you're saying got the house? I believe, So, yes, sir, that's what I recall. And Paul arrived at the house after I arrived at the house. I believe. And if Paul. Got to the house around about at the same time, he wasn't inside with Maggie and I. When I take it to the shower.

16:35 So you say, if Paul got he wasn't inside with Maggie and you. Is that what you said? Mister Murdock, Is that what you said, sir? You said, if Paul got the house prior to that, he wasn't inside with you. And Maggie, is that what you said. I'm saying he was not inside when I went to get into the shower. Okay, right again, looking back at this down point eight a way, we see a little blue dock right there in the middle of the house. Do yeah, that's what these records show. And it also shows that circle that folks testify to what in the range of what it could be with him. So I mean, it clearly could.

17:25 Leave of that circle. Look at what was right in the middle of that circle, almost like somebody drew a circle around the house, don't you adreak, Yeah, I do. But also in that circle is where you would park a truck if you pulled up, So you know, and I'm not saying that he wasn't in the house at some point in time there, but when I went to get in the shower, he wasn't in. The house, and he very easily could have been there and been parked in the yard. All right. You agree at the bottom of page sixteen that about eight thirty, Maggie starts tracking stuffs again on her phone.

18:16 Yes, sir, that's what the data shows. Let's hit the wrong button, and. You would agree with me that about eight thirty eight, Paul's fine shows him back up with the countels. Well, yes, sir, I agree that at eight thirty eight, let me see which one. It's hard for me to figure out which one of these rings, But at eight thirty eight it shows Paul in which every one of those rings is fifty six meters why.

19:11 And I have no reason to believe he wasn't at the kennel. And then eight forty four fifty five, we've already gone through this because that's the kennel video, right, Yes, sir, that's correct, and you would agree with me that it lasts about fifty seconds. Correct, Yes, sir, I agree with debt, and you would. Agree with me. Moving on to page nineteen, that both Maggie and Paul's phones locked for the final time around eight forty nine. That's what the data shows.

19:52 After that, you agree that Maggie's phone around eight fifty three shows some steps being taken. That's what the data shows, yes, sir. Leader doesn't showho's carrying ever, That's what it shows is that correct. That is correct, And then. You would agree with me that from nine oh two tonight o six, your phone finally comes to life and it starts showing a lot of stuffs. I do agree with that. What were you doing? I was getting ready to go to my mom's house. Getting ready to go. I thought you like a shower already. You were just laying down on the couch. But what all you need to do to get ready to. Go to your mom's house. I mean, there wasn't anything to get ready in that aspect.

20:35 I was getting ready to go. I was preparing to leave to doing what. I don't know if I got up, I went to the bathroom, I don't know. I can't tell you exactly what I was doing. And that's far more steps in the shorter time period than any time prior, as you've seen from the testimony in this case. So what were you so busy doing? That's going to the bathroom? No, no, no, I don't think that I get on all the bathroom. No. I didn't get on a treadmill place, nope. I didn't jog in place, No, sir, I did not do jumping that. What were you doing with Murdoculo's four. Minutes preparing to leave for my mom's house. What what does that mean? I mean, you're in the front room on that couch where you say you laid down.

21:16 The suburban's just right outside. What all are you doing? I don't know. If I got up and went to my room, went to the gun room, went back in that. Doing what You've been so clear in your new story about everything, What were you doing during these four minutes? I disagree with your assertion about every detail. I don't recall. I know that I was getting up and I was leaving. I was going to check on my mom. That's specifically what I was doing. I don't I don't know. Okay, I know what I wasn't doing, mister Waters. And what I wasn't doing is doing anything.

22:00 As I believe you've implied that I was cleaning off or washing off or washing off guns, or putting guns in a rain coat. And I can promise you that I wasn't doing any of that. Okay. Also, during this four minutes where you got two hundred and eighty three steps, not only are you moving around a lot, but you're making a ton of phone calls because that in that same time period, you see this rip line right here where over that four minute period all those steps were taken. That's also when you're calling making all these phone calls. Isn't it, mister Murdoch, Well, I made the phone calls. Slas and making phone calls. Is that what I'm allowed to answer? Before mister Waters steps on him again with another question, please thank him.

22:47 You were making all these phone calls while you were taking all these steps. Would you conceive that where you don't remember what you were doing? Well, I was making phone calls and that shown here at nine oh five, I call my dad. You know, I don't know that I was taking steps like you're saying, I'm taking steps. I heard the same testimony you heard, mister Waters, and you know steps can be recorded any number of ways. I don't have a specific recollection of walking around. I don't know if I was hitting my phone like the guys showed or doing whatever that makes steps. But you know you were hit with your phone like that while you were making all these phone calls. No, what I'm saying, mister Words, I don't know that. I'm just giving you an example. You're saying that I'm running around taking these steps and while I'm doing that, I'm making telephone calls.

23:35 What I will agree with is. That this data shows that there was two hundred and eighty three steps. Recorded on my phone, and sometime during that period, I made certain phone calls. Okay, all right, So not only for whatever it is is recording steps, which you're also making a ton of phone calls, including missed calls to Maggie who is eleven hundred feet away. Supposedly you're using the term a ton of phone calls. What I agree is that I made the phone calls that are listed on these call data records.

24:16 Which. You know are very normal phone calls from me. Do you know why so many phone calls were missing from the log around this relevant time period when law enforcement downloaded your phone on June tenth. From my phone? Yeah, no, I don't. Did you delete them, mister Murdock? Not intentionally, just around time June seventh, all these calls were missing, but you had nothing to do with that. Between June seventh and June tenth. No, sir, I did not, and I did not delete phone calls from my phone. Mister. What is one of the most important things in this whole thing for me has been getting this data that I believe would exist. Phone calls and phone records would be part of that. I've been in enough civil cases and used phone records enough times to know that you delete a phone call from your phone, it doesn't disappear.

25:18 So I can tell you this jury and everybody who's listening that I did not intentionally delete phone calls from my phone. Yeah, because you started talking about that. You're a former prosecutor correct, and former lawyer doing civil cases. We went through that yesterday and boy, you're busy bee on my phone right out of the gate A nine are two? Right? Production's overruled. Am I a busy bee? Yep, I am using my telephone at I think I call at nine oh five, I start and call my dad, and I agreed that I made other phone costs.

26:01 And one of the first things you started talking about with law enforcement is these calls that you made to Maggie. Correct you remember recall that from your first statement to law enforcement. One of the first things did I said to law enforcement? Yeah, that's one of the things you talk about I'm talking about with your interview with Special Agent Dave Owen. I don't remember that being the first thing we talked about. But if mister Owens asked me about it, then I didn't you I did? You don't recall, No, I don't. I don't recall. Would you just give me if I said you brought it up that I brought up? What brought up what, mister Murdock, your phone phone.

26:44 Calls to Maggie? Yes? Did I brought up phone costs to Maggie to David Owens. I'm asking you, is that one of the things that you talked about in your first interview with Dave Owen, that you pulled out your phone and started looking at it, that you brought that up. Do you recall that? Well, but that's not what you asked mister Owens. You asked me. Was that the first thing that I talked to him about, and that was the discrepancy. I certainly don't dispute that mister Owens and I talked about phone calls, but that's not what you said. So just to be clear, Well, the real reason, mister Murdoch is that you, as a lawyer and prosecutor, are up at nine oh two finally having your phone in your hand, moving around and making all these phone calls to manufacture and alibi. Is that not true?

27:36 That's absolutely incorrect. So that's just another circumstance and coincidence in this particular case, right around the time that you lied to law enforcement about maybe one of the most important facts in the case. I meant before the question, it is an absolute fact that I am not manufacturing an alibi. As you say, how do you remember so much detail about everything else, but you don't remember what you were specifically doing to generate two hundred and eighty three steps while you're making these all these phone calls in the same four minute period. I remember, unequivocally, without any doubt, with as clear a mind as I could have at any time.

28:20 Did I never manufactured any alibi in any way, shape or form, because I did not and would not hurt my wife and my child. So I know for a fact, did I never ever ever created an alibi? Why don't you remember what you were doing when you were so busy for this four minute critical period. I do remember what I was doing other than I was getting ready to go. Well, that's because that's what I was doing.

29:10 Okay, Well, let's keep going. You made those calls to Maggie in that four minute period you had just seen them a few minutes ago. When you say you went down there and came right back, why didn't you just take that quick little left elen hundred yards away and stop by. See why they didn't answer the call. You're obviously wanting to get in touch with them. Why didn't you go down to the kennels that were so close by?

29:54 There was no reason to. I mean, can multiple miscalls to Maggie and she's so close, and there's a driveway right there, why do you not just go down there and say, hey, guys, I'm heading over there. It wasn't important to do that. Me me making those phone calls is simply me letting I believe I called Maggie in I believe called I called Paul. But that that that's simply me just letting them know that I'm leaving for a minute. I'll be back. The fact that that they don't answer, it's not unusual at all. Now, it is odd, it is unusual that they never called me back.

30:39 And but but at that moment, the fact that there's a. Miscall when when I know they're on the property, I mean, that doesn't even register at all. That's perfectly normal to try to call somebody who's on the property and not be able to get them. And and as far as not going down there, there was no sense of urgency. Maggie was with Paul. You know, she should be as safe as she could be. Man, she sure.

31:27 Did you talk with Maggie about going to Almeda when you were at the kennels? No, I don't believe I did. Did you talk with Maggie about going to Almeda during supper? I know that we had talked about it, I had talked. I don't believe we talked about it at supper, but we may have. I know that I had talked about that I was going to go over there, and then I decided that I wasn't going to go over there. But what was your conversation a supper? Tell me specifically, if you could, please, that's all going to all meet him. I can't tell you that we specifically talked about that. The only thing that I can tell you we specifically talked about that supper.

32:08 Was Paul Paul all right? And what was the conversation. Maggie was just concerned Paul. Paul had been having For a young person, Paul had been having high blood pressure and he's very resistant to go to the doctor. And this has been going on for a little while, but. Lately Paul's feet had swollen, and for twenty two year old to have start having swollen feet concerned both of us, and it particularly concerned Maggie, and we talked about that.

32:50 Okay, did y'all talk about mister Randolph and all? I'm sure we did. Do you remember that group text and in about uh, whether or not anybody was gonna go see mister Randolph at the hospital the next time? Do I remember it coming in? I don't remember it coming. In because you didn't read it until the next day. But I've seen it. I've seen the data. Why didn't you? Did you ever text the group and say you were going to al Meeta at all? No? Did Maggie ever? Did you and Maggie ever specifically discuss her going along with you to al Meeta? I don't believe that we did.

33:30 I know that there was a point in time where I said Maggie might go, but it's highly unusual for Maggie to go and visit just my mom. That that whole situation, it just made it made Maggie sad and she didn't like to go, so you I don't believe that we did, but I do acknowledge that at some point I said she might go for some reason. You told law enforcement on in multiple cas that, first of all, Maggie was claiming to stay at Autistow the night of June seventh. Correct. I did say that, all right. And you also said that you came to find out that she came home of her own accord. Correct. You told that to law enforcement. Is that true?

34:18 She did come home of her own accord. That she decided on her own to come home because she was worried about you. Didn't that what you said? I did say that. I believe that to be the case. All right. But since we've despite what you told law enforcement, we've seen the texts that you actually called her and asked her to come home on the night of June seventh. No, sir, that's not correct. That's not correct. No, sir, that's absolutely not correct. Right. So you heard your sister in law, Marian taysifight in just that fact of a conversation she had with Maggie. But you're saying that's not true. I don't believe that's what Marion said. And your defense put in this exhibit Exhibit one oh seven, where Maggie texted Blanca and said, Alec wants me to come home.

35:05 I've seen that. I agree with that. He's not it up on the stream. Up. I've got a long handle with here. I just told it up. You've seen this text. I have seen that, mister water is the only dispute I have with what you're saying. Is you're saying that I called Maggie and wanted her to come home. I always wanted Maggie to come home, and I would have talked to Maggie about coming home before she ever left to go to Charleston and to Edistone. And I can tell you this, and I didn't realize this at the time, but I realize it now that.

35:46 Maggie was already undecided. Now I didn't know this, but Maggie was already undecided about staying at Edistone. I can promise you that, because. Bubba and gret were in their kennels, as y'all well know, that night. That day, if Maggie was certain that she was spending the night at. Edistowe, at a minimum, Bubba would have been with her and probably both dogs would have been with her. It was very unusual for her to spend the night anywhere without one of us or those dogs. So that tells me that when she left that morning, she was already seriously thinking about coming back.

36:33 So you're saying that you never called her and had a conversation that day asking her to come home. Specifically, on the night of June seventh, twenty twenty one. Maggie and I had a couple of phone conversations that day. What I'm telling you is that before she left. No, I don't believe we had a phone call about that. We may have discussed during the phone call, but I didn't make a phone call to her to ask her to come home. I had already told her I wanted her to come home. I always wanted her to come home. You heard Mary and say that too, that I always wanted Maggie with me. Maggie thought enough of her to talk about it with Mariyan. Didn't she. The fact that I wanted her to come home?

37:13 Correct? Well, sure, I mean that's what Marian said. So you're denying that you called Maggie and specifically asked her to come home that night. I didn't make a phone call to Maggie to ask her to come home that night. I asked Maggie to come home long before she ever left, and I probably asked her again each time I talked to her, But I didn't make the phone call specifically. For that, as you're saying. And to be clear, I'm.

37:53 Certain that if Maggie was certain that she was spending the night, bubb would have been with her and probably Grady. All right, why did you tell law enforcement there that you found out after the fact that Maggie wanted to come home because she was concerned about you. Why did you phrase it that way? If what you're saying to the jury now was accurate, why would you phrase it that way? Because I believe that to be the case that. You found out afterwards. But now you're saying you knew. No, I'm saying I found out afterwards why she came home, mister Waters, and she came home because she was worried about me. So I'm going to be clear about that.

38:43 I did not learn that until I think today, after she got killed. But you're saying that you found out that after the fact, that you're telling this jury that you knew the things that you just said about her wanting to come home, and you were unaware of what Marian would say at that point either. No, I'm saying at that time I had not thought about bub and Grady. Since that time I thought about that, I'm certain of that. At the time, I thought Maggie was staying at Edistowe, all right. She was going to Edistow to meet the people to do the work.

39:24 Maggie loved to stay at Edistowe. There's no doubt about that. It would not be unusual at all for her to stay at Edistowe. But just like every other time, I had already asked her please come back, come back, always wanted her to stay with me always, But I did not learn about and Maggie even texted me I'll see you in a few hours. But I I did not know why she decided to come back until later. It's what I'm saying, and I learned it from Blanco. Blanca actually showed me the text that she sent her talking about being worried about me.

40:31 You would agree with me that you sent a text to Maggie at nine to eight fifty eight while in motion in the suburban that's reflected by the data. I do, which was because I couldn't reach them by the telephone and I wanted them to know where I was. Okay, which is what we do. And you got to our meet around nine twenty two.

41:11 I believe that's correct. I can go out, Uh, I don't. I don't have any reason to dispute. That made some more phone calls along the way. I did make more phone calls along the way while I. Was riding, called Chrus Wilson. I did call Chris Wilson, got a short conversation with him.

42:02 Is that right? I did have a conversation for half a long the record. Show about a one one hundred and thirty one seconds, So that sounded aut right. If that's what the record show two minutes. Called your brother John Marvin for about a hundred and six seconds in coding connection times, that sounds about right. It does sound about right. Arrived at nine twenty two. Is that sounded al right? It does?

42:45 And then at nine twenty four you call that's the landline at I'll meet us. Is that correct? That is correct? And then you went inside? Is that right? Yeah? That's right, that's right. Called the house phone to get Shelley to let me in. And when you were asked by law enforcement how long you were at your mother's house, you said forty five minutes to an hour. Wasn't that correct? I think I said a couple of different things, but I think at one time I did say that. But you know, routinely through these things, I kept saying, you know, when you get this data, you'll see exactly when you look at my phone, you'll see exactly when you do you know, So you know, me giving the times was always given with the thought that, Okay, there's on star out there, there's whatever.

43:49 Well, when you had a conversation with miss Shelley after the fact, you actually asked her to say that you were there longer than twenty minutes. You know, I heard Shelley's testimony. I believe Shelley to be a good person. I wasn't trying to influence Shelley on any particular length of time because at the beginning of this I believe that data would show what data would show, and for me to tell her to say something when my own star's going to show something different just doesn't make any sense.

44:29 So you know, I can't answer that. What my recollection is is. That I told Shelley that law enforcement would be talking to her. We may have discussed how long I was there at that point in time. If I thought I was there forty five minutes, I may have said I was here forty five minutes. But you know I can't tell you, right. That's that Blocker testify too, that you talked to her about the close that you were wearing. It made her uncomfortable. Correct asked that question again. It's similar to your conversation with Blanca that she testified about when you talked to her about the clothes that you were supposedly wearing. What made her feel uncomfortable? Do you remember that testimony?

45:20 Sir? What's similar to that? Well, that you're talking to both of these individuals about their testimony in a manner that's inconsistent with what they know. No, I don't, I don't think. I don't. I don't think your assertion is accurate. You have to understand this. On August the eleventh, when I went to meet with David Owens, and in that David Owens asked me about he showed me that snapchat and asked me about clothes that I had on. And shortly after that, the next time I was with Blanca. I asked Blanca about those clothes because David Owens.

46:06 Had asked me about him. It was making made an issue about it, and so I checked with Blanca to see what I specifically asked Blanca, and it was an issue to me. So I got Blanc and I said, I need you to sit down and talk with me about this. This is important. Do you remember my clothes. When you came to Mozelle that day? And she remembered exactly what she testified to. She remembered that my pants were there. She wasn't sure if the shirt was there at that time. I think she actually thought the shirt was there, but she was clear that she wasn't sure about that.

46:49 But oh no, no, she wasn't unsure, but she didn't remember but assumed that it was. So that was the conversation that and why I was asking Blanca. Right again, you're very specific about your memories of that conversation. Is that correct, mister Murna. You dang right. I'm consistent about that because a very short time before that, David Owens is asking me questions and telling me I'm a suspect in the murder of my wife and my child and asking me about my clothes. You dang right, it was important. It was important, right, and you dang right. I remember why I went to her, and for what reason?

47:32 Because the only thing you're concerned about is yourself. You're not concerned about giving accurate information to law enforcement. Correct. What's the reason for that, mister Murdock. Why don't you want to give accurate information to law enforcement? Why do you want to talk to these women who both are employed by you or your family and try to influence what they were going to say. I did want to give law enforcement accurate information. I told a lie about being down there, and I got myself wedd to that. But I wanted to give them as much I knew that I hadn't done this, and I wanted to give them as much accurate information as I could. But the reason I went to Blanca is specifically because David Owen's talking to me.

48:25 On allis eleven. And see that you're under way about nine forty two, heading back nine nine forty three. I do.

49:21 Turn on Mozelle about ten o one. Turned into Moselle at ten oh one. Yeah, sorry, it looks to me like I turned into Mozelle. At ten o'clock, ten o'clock on the dive. Sorry, yes, sir, at the house at ten oh five, Yes, sir. Remember that's when you went back to the kennels after you came back from al Meata. Correct.

50:05 I went to the kennels after I went to the house at I went from Almeta's to the house to the kennels. And we got to the scene. You got out of the car, according to what you told law enforcement repeatedly, and went and checked the bodies, correct, before you called nine one one. Is that correct? No, serio, that's not correct. You don't you're saying you didn't say that to law enforcement. I don't know what I said law enforcements for, but I can tell you this. I pulled up and I saw Paul. I jumped out of that car, and I went back to my car and a car nine one one as quickly as I could. That point in time when I got on the phone, then is when I went to them and did the things that I did.

51:18 So what you're saying is not accurate. You're saying that you didn't say, very specifically the law enforcement that you went to them prior to calling nine one one, When after you got out of the car. You told law enforcement repeatedly that you went over and checked the bodies before you called nine one one. No, I don't. If I did say that, I don't believe that's accurate. Did I check Maggie and Paul before I called nine one one? Correct? No, sir, that's not that's not I don't that's not accurate. At least, that's not what I remember. That's not what you remember saying, or that's not what she's say now happens.

52:01 No, that's not what that's not what I believe happened. Okay, but you don't deny that's what you said. Did I said? Did I check Maggie and Paul before I called down one one? Right? I don't believe that's what I said. Now, I know I checked them, but I don't believe I checked them before I called now one one.

52:47 Because I I can pretty well remember vividly when I checked Paul Paul. I was already on the phone with none. On looking at this data. Yeah, to show the vehicle parking at ten oh five and fifty five seconds, Yes, sir, ten oh five fifty seven. The suburban arrives at the Kennels you agree with that.

53:45 I'm sorry, said anagains word at ten oh. Five fifty seven. It shows the suburban arriving at the kennels. Okay, okay, the nine won one call? Was that ten oh six fourteen? Okay? Just about twenty seconds later? You agree with that? I think that sounds right. Yes, sir, it may not make sense, but that goes back to what I'm saying is I pulled up, I saw, I saw them, and I know I jumped out of my car, but I believe that before I checked them. In fact, I'm almost certain, and then I went back and I got my That's when I went and got my phone and I called down one one, and then after I called now one one they I mean there was a little while where there wasn't. I don't think there was anything going on,

55:18 and I believe that that is the time period that I went and checked on them. I don't want to believe at this point that what you're saying here today, now that we have this data, that's not exactly how you expressed it the law enforcement in your prior statements. Is that correct, No, sir, I disagree with that. So I totally disagree with that mister waters, will you point to what you're talking about?

56:02 All right, sir, you got the hounds? Like what seven? Right? Miss word up? Just take your full name for me, Richard Alexander. I mean think of the last thing so you get correct. Yea you are d A U g H. Can you go by alex Yes, sir, h be a birth mister wardop.

56:48 May seven, nineteen sixty eight. To sold for eight zero three nine four two one two two heaven. Yeah, and so what would your name? Yeah? Okay, all right, as a state of from David Owen being a floor on this Caulk County, I'm sliff.

57:28 I have to do this. I understand. I totally understand. So you don't. You don't have any problem with it, So. Just start the top. Take your time. Like when I came back here, I mean I pulled up and I could see him, and you know, I knew something was bad. I ran out. I knew it was really bad, and yeah, little boy over there, I could see it was h. H h h.

58:19 I could see his brain m. H m hmmm. And I ran over to Maggie. Actually, I think I tried to turn Paul over first. Uh, you know, I tried to turn him over, and I don't know I figured. It out. Him cell phone popped out of his pocket. I started to try to do something with it, thinking maybe, but then I put it back down really quickly. Then I went to my wife, and I.

59:07 Mean I could see did you touch maybe? And off I did. I touched some boat I tried to take. I mean, I tried to do it as will limited as possible, but I. Tried to take their thoughts on both of them. And you know, I called nine one one. Pretty much right away, and she was very good. I talked to her. I told her I was going to get off the phone to call some family.

59:53 I did that, and the family members did you call him? My brother Ry? And I called my brother John, and I tried to call the little boy. Real good trends right around the corner from here, but. I think you get him. That person who's in name I was rugged around the corner. Is that who you're talking about? That's correct. But going back to your question, I mean, that's that's the way I remember it. What I said right there, And you know you're over your question about did I do these things before I called now one one? That's not what I said then, And that's not what I remember now.

1:00:56 So you're saying now that you want out. Act. You came back, got your phone, and that's when you called nine one one. I'm not saying that now, mister, I am saying that now, But to me, that's what I said then. I mean I told her I called nine one one right away. I didn't have there was no time to do to things that I'm talking about doing in the time between getting there and. Calling nine one one. When you talked about calling Rogan and he said that he lives right around the corner. Correct, that's correct. But Rugan wasn't staying there at the time. That's the whole reason that Cash was at your kennel, right.

1:01:38 You knew that, well, Rogan was staying in Beaufort a lot, but he was home a lot too. I didn't. I didn't know where Rogan was on a daily. Basis about keeping his dog Cash of the kennels when he was staying with his girlfriend and working down in Beaufort. Yes, he had asked me that, but I mean that had been some time before. I didn't know you making a big deal about this, mister Waters. But that particular night I didn't have a clue where Rogan was staying or not staying. I was trying to find somebody to come out there with me. I'd called Randy, I'd called John.

1:02:21 And Rogan was the next best alternative. And Rogan is so close. I mean, Rogan, of all these kids that you've heard Rogan giftson Roro is like a Rogan you prefer when I call him. Rogan is truly like a son to Maggie and I. And he was such a good friend to Buster, and he was such a good friend of Paul. And you've been through everything I. Have, you'll see that two weeks or three weeks prior to this, I ran out of gas when Bus and Paul Paul weren't home, and Rogan's the person that I called to bring me gas. Okay, nobody suspeating in any of the rugging would have helped you.

1:03:09 Keep playing around well when you walked up blood, any other anything else? I mean there was somebody things, yes, sir, I mean, like any other evidence of the lease of the phone fell out of pocket. But did you see anything else that. Didn't belong or shouldn't belong or that was a part of fall. No, shirt. Not no, not. No shirt about Maggie. No shirt. You can't see anything of room. Now, what made you come out here tonight?

1:03:50 I went to my mom's late stage Alsheimer's station. My dad's in the hospital. My mom gets anxious when she does. I went to check on them and Maggie. Maggie's a dog lover, she fools with the dogs, and I knew she'd gone to the count. I was at the house. You just have to find that in the wake of this, you didn't know what you said the law enforcement. That was what you just said. No, I mean, I know I know a lot of what I said to law enforcement. But there's a lot of things in looking back at this.

1:04:38 Video, for one, did I want one call? For one? I mean, there's a lot of things that I didn't remember. Okay, But right then and there, just not long into this interview, made a conscious decision to why right there play that again. You said I was at the house. And I knew she'd gone to the camp. I was at the house.

1:05:18 I left that out. We play going to back it up? Smore? Well, yeah, we can keep listening to it. Anything from what made you come out here at night? I went to my mom's late stage all sammuspation. My dad's in the hospital. My mom gets anxious when she does. I went to check on them and Maggie. Maggie is a dog lover. She fools with the dogs, and I knew she'd gone to the camp. I was at the house. You want to hear it again, No, sir, but I don't you made a ancious decision to lie right there, this early into an interview, sitting in the front seat.

1:06:03 Correct. I don't believe. So you didn't make a conscious decision to lie. I don't believe that. I don't believe that was lying at that point. Okay, tell me why not? Because Maggie had gone to the kennels and I was at the house. Okay, so you think you were being That was not a lie at that point. I don't believe. So at what point did you decide to lie? I'm not sure, but it was in that It was in this interview. I believe that it was. Okay, what's this interview where you're sitting in the front seat. Correct? It is. You're not in custody, correct, I'm not in custody. They're giving you water, letting me cheat Tobacca treating you politely.

1:06:44 Correct, they were treating me very politely. What was it that they click when so you said this interview that it collecked that that I'm a lie about the most important fact that I know. I'm not sure exactly when in it that I lied decided to lie. But I believe it was during this interview. I believe all those things that I talked about, you know, those things that have gone on, the things that. People have said to me. About don't talk to anybody without a lawyer. Partners all told me that, or if a lot of my partners told me that. My dear friend, Chief Alexander was one who said that I overheard.

1:07:27 I believe it was Sheriff Hill. I'm not positive I overheard him tell I believe Mark Baul or Gray Holmes don't let him talk to anybody without a lawyer. And what I believe is that based on my distrust of sled and getting in that interview. And I'm not positive about this, but I believe when he asked me, you know, about my relationship with my wife and my son, I believe that's when I decided to lie. But I'm not the GSR too because that's what you touched about to yesterday. That certainly contributed. And you're dope paranoia too, you said that as well. Correct, Well, those things are what triggered the paranoia that started.

1:08:13 As my addiction evolved. Right, So, you're. An experienced lawyer and you've been a prosecutor, and you took the advice of your law partners that you should have a lawyer there as you read that as oh, I should lie. No, that's that's not That's not what that means, is it, miss Vernock. That's not You're not that's not an accurate statement what you just said, mister Order. I just repeated what you just said. You said was one of the factors was your law partners, and now you're bloming. Sheriff Hill and Greg Alexander told you that you needed a lawyer before you talk to the police, and you took that somehow is meaning I need to lie as a lawyer and a prosecutor.

1:09:01 No, that's what you said, mister Waters. But I mischaracterizing it from your perspective, mister Murdock, because I think that's then that what you've heard isn't not what you just said. Excuse me, No, sir, that's not what I said. That's say it again. I believe those guys were trying to help me. I believe they cared about me. I believe they thought that I was in a condition such that I shouldn't talk to anybody. I mean, I mean those guys had to prop me up, help me get myself together, just to be able to go talk to David Owens. I mean, they were trying to help me. But before that, that was just. One of the many things that I believe led to that situation, sitting in there where those paranoid thoughts came to me, them talking about not talking to anybody without a lawyer, Brian Varona Doe checking my hands, the fact that I got a pocket full of pills in my pocket.

1:10:08 Uh. I was the person who found Maggie and Paul, my distrust for Sled. All of those factors combined and made me decide to lie. I also know him asking me about Maggie and Paul Paul contributed to that paranoia. All I'm saying is, I'm not disputing that I lied. I'm just saying, at this point, you're saying I made a conscious decision to lie here and I'm saying, I don't think I made a conscious decision right there.

1:10:50 I believe so. Had you already had your GSR down at this point, yes, sir, okay, I had, and you already talked to your law partners and talked to and heard sherif Phil Now you're I'm not even know Sheph Alexander now as well for your lives. No, mister Waters, I'm just out of that one. You didn't say that yesterday, and you just out of that one. Please be given an opportunity answer the question objection. Confess her last answer. Mister Waters, I'm not blaming anybody. I accept full responsibility for what I did. What I'm saying is what I believe contributed to me doing that and the reason why I did that. I think those folks were trying to help me, So I don't blame them.

1:11:46 I think they were worried about me. I don't dispute that. But you're saying you took that advice as I need to lie. Now, what you're doing is you're isolating one single. Thing, isolating anything. I've mentioned all the factors. You've added some new ones, but I mentioned all the factors that you're blaming a lie. That's not what you did. What you asked me is you said, I took my partners telling me not to talk to somebody without a lawyer as a reason to lie. And that's an inaccurate statement. That was one of the factors that went into a series of hang on, mister orders, a series of events, all right, that caused me to have.

1:12:29 Paranoid thinking. All right, and then I lied. All right, But at some point it happened during this interview that you you crossed over. You're saying that you came into this interview intending to be fully disclosing to everything, and something happened in this interview that sent you over the edge, and you said, hey, let me lie about the last time I saw my wife and child A lot I supposed to be great to me. I certainly didn't go into that interview, I believe, intending to loss for words. I wasn't capable at that point in time of planning anything or thinking through anything. So somehow during this interview, all of a sudden, those senses came to you to plan and do that.

1:13:16 When I got to thinking in that paranoid way that normally, as I said, I mean I could take a deep breath and make it go away. I never had a situation. Where it lasted more than a matter of seconds. That night, after all those things had happened, it didn't go away in a matter of seconds, and I decided to lie. Now, are y'all like me at this point? Can you hear it in his voice? Alec is getting more and more nervous on that stand now, to be sure, he's practiced what he is going to say regarding why he lied a thousand times in his head. But the thing he didn't prepare for, could not prepare for, was the hammering that Waters was laying down on him. He was simply getting out litigated and outsmarted by Waters. Awesome lawyer work right there, So we'll continue.

1:14:33 Those are the clothes that you ultimately gave to Dave Owen? Is that right? Those are the clothes I gave to David Owens. At what point did you get you be able to chuck the pills you say? Or in your pocket? When did you do that? When I was in my bedroom and you're. In the bedroom. Yes, sir, where's Puddom? I'm not sure where I put him? But ultimately they would have gone in my suitcase. So that's when you did it. Do you have a specific recollection of that. No, I don't. I just knowed I took them out of my pocket. If we watched this whole video, you think you could. If we just watch the whole thing, you think you can say, Okay, that's the moment where my senses came to me and I decided I was going to tell this major lie.

1:15:14 I don't know did it happened like that, but I mean I may be able to tell you some things that contributed to it. We watched the whole thing, We've heard that. I just want to be clearer though, at least on this one. At some point during this interview, when you were able to plan your lie about this event and you made that decision, But it wasn't what we just played. There wasn't yet. There was some point after that. I don't think that's a lie. Right. There is the reason why I don't think that has occurred before this, because what I'm saying there.

1:16:01 I believe to be truthful. And I know this. I know for a fact that when David Owens asked me about my relationship with my wife and my child, I know that that played a role in that. And I believe that, and I may be wrong, but I believe that this was before that. You ever heard the expression not telling the whole truth is the same as telling a lie. Sure I have. That's something you understood as a lawyer and a prosecutor. Yes, all right, just work, Just take your full day form please, Richard Alexander Murder.

1:16:48 And it's doing the last thing so. That they correct am you are the A U G H. And you do about Alec, yes, sir, and David Earth will start up. May twenty seven, nineteen sixty eight. We'll give some number for you eight zero three nine four. Two one two two seven and so what was your name? Yeah? Then all right, as I stated, I'm David Owen and the floor writing with cal County.

1:17:34 I'm a slid. I hate to have to do this. I understand. I totally understand. So you don't. You don't have any problem with it. So you hadn't decided to lie right there? Right, I don't believe. So you told David Owen that you understood that he had to ask questions and you do what you need to do, right. It is what I told him talking about at what point during that interview in the car with Dave Owen that you decided to start lying about the murders of your wife and son.

1:18:25 I'm gonna pick up this video real quick now, gonna play the whole thing, but I'm gonna start from two minutes and nine seconds. Just start to talk. Take your child. Like when I came back here, wet clean it up, little love, And I. Could see him, and you know, I knew. Some one little bad. I ran out. I know it was really bad, some little boy over there. I see it. Was and I could see his brain. Yeah, and I ran over the maggot. Actually, I think I tried to turn Paul over first. Uh, you know, I tried to turn him over, and I don't know I figured it out.

1:19:50 Hissel phone popped out of his pocket. I started to try to do something with it, thinking maybe, but then I put it back down really quickly times and I went to my wife, and I. Mean I could see, did you touch Megan? All? I did. I touched them both. I tried to take I mean I tried to do it as limited as possible, but I tried to take their talks on both of them. And you know, I called nine one one pretty much right away, and.

1:20:37 She was very good. Mh I talked to her. I told her I was going to get off the phone to call some family. I did that. And mm hmmm, Amester, did you call him? Call my brother Ed? And I called my brother John, and I tried to call him little boy, real good friends right around the corners from here, But I didn't get him.

1:21:23 What all was around Paul when he walked up blind? Any any other anything else? I mean that it was somebody, Yes, sir, I. Mean like any other evidence. I know you set the store and fell out of the pocket, But did you see anything else that didn't belong or shouldn't belong or that wasn't part of all? No, sir, not no, not. No. Sure How about Maddie, No, sir, you didn't see anything around? Now? What made you come out here to night?

1:22:05 I went to my mom's Lake Stage Alzheimer's station. My dad's in the hospital. My mom gets anxious when she does. I went to check on them and Maggie. Maggie used the dog loved she fools with the dogs, and I knew she'd gone to the count. I was at the house. Just to be clear, you say you hadn't made the conscious decision to start lying about your wife and sons murder right there. Correct, I don't believe, So okay, let's continue on, mister. I can't. I can't tell you exactly when that decision occurred. Yeah, you can't describe to the jury the moment you decided to lie about your wife's son and your wife and son's murder.

1:22:54 I can't tell you exactly when that moment occurred. I left the house. I went sud say earlier that when David O when asked you about your relationships, that was a tricker point, right, Well, that was. Certainly one of the things that. Contributed or made me paranoid. Now you know there were already things that had gone on that that that occurred, as I said, that put me in that mindset. But exactly when I decided to lie by that, I can't tell you. So the things again, you talked about your your dope paranoia, the fact they taken GSR, and you talked about the advice of your law partners and Sheriff Hill and Greg Alexander, and then you talked about your distrust of sled. Somehow from this the circumstances and demeanor of this interview right here.

1:23:55 Correct, You know, my distrust from Slid didn't arise from this interview. My distrust for Sled arose from a couple of things, and it really several things. It arose from the way they had been involved in. SLED had been involved in the investigation into Paul's criminal charges, and they had been involved in there was an issue that had gone on with some rumors about Busher and Paul. They had been involved in that where you know Busher North Paul had.

1:24:41 Anything to do with what I'm talking about, and Sled would never said, never said that, even though they told the lawyer that they never say that. And there had been another incident where SLED had charged Dreg Alexander, my my friend. In this case, they shim. And in fact I thought the agent that was involved in that was David Owen. But the charges against Greg Alexander were so they were so wrong that my dad and I made a conscious decision, even though he was a career prosecutor, made a decision to go to the courthouse and sit with Greg Alexander while his trial went on because.

1:25:31 Ten years ago, right, it was a while back, you know, you don't know if Dave Owen was a slide ten years ago. No, No, I checked on that, because that night the officer who was involved in that case and bringing clearly manufactured charges against Greg Alexander. Before you sat down from this interview, you were asking somebody about whether or not about Greg Alexander ten years ago and the waken what had occurred. Oh no, I didn't ask anybody. Okay, So that wasn't what you were assion you were sitting in this card. No, I wasn't discussing that. I'm miss telling you that I thought David Owen was the same agent that was involved in that case. Now I learned later because I checked on it. I learned later that it was a different David sled agent first named David, with a different last name.

1:26:17 I learned that later. I'm just saying that was all part of that process. Going on in my mind. So you're saying that you're sitting here right now thinking that this Dave Owen, in this circumstances and demeanor of this interview, you're thinking that guy had been involved in the prosecution or investigation of your friend ten years ago. I did, Okay, So here's a new one. You just mentioned us. Correct, No, that's not a new one. That's part of the circumstances are new. I mean, I'm fairly specific, don't you think when I mean, the story keeps evolving, keep going. Now you asked me about this, mister Owen. What I said is part of this whole I mean, mister Waters, the whole part of this whole process involved my distrust for Sled.

1:26:58 That was part of a big part of my distrust for sledg. You know, we can all see it on your face in this interview, can't we. I don't know. But you said and when what you just said a little bit ago, that wasn't the lie. That wasn't conscious decision yet, so let's keep doing it. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't believe that it was. I don't know exactly when I made the decision to lie about. That, all right, all right, if you say it, let me know. Okay, Cat for. Just a little while, tried to call her, laugh, tested her, no response.

1:27:46 When I got back to the house, the house was obviously. Nobody was in there. So see if they're still up fears fooling around, Paul's gonna be getting set up to plant or sunflowers, seeds got sprayed and and he was receiver and to do the plant the sunlight receipts. So I came back up here and drove up and saw. Had Maggie and Paul can argue on it or anything? What was their relationship like? Wonderful, wonderful?

1:28:29 How about yours? Maggie's wonderful? I mean, I'm sure we had little things here and there, but we had a wonderful, wonderful relationship. Yours of Paul's relationship. As good as it could be. That was Paul. Twenty two. So that was the moment right there, with that line of questioning, just ask some very general questions about your relationship. You mentioned that before then you, mister Murray, is that the moment right there? Is that the look on your face when you decide to lie about an important fact in your wife and son's murder. I don't know, as I said, mister Waters, I don't know the exact point that I made that decision.

1:29:14 Mentioned that very exchange is somehow triggering you to lie about the last time you saw them a line. Now, I'm not saying that that's what made me lie I'm saying this whole set of circumstances caused me to be in a state where I had paranoid thoughts. Okay that normally, mister Waters, I could take a deep breath and make go away in a second or two seconds or three seconds at the most, and on this night, I wasn't able to do that. But all of those things that I mentioned I believe contributed to that.

1:30:08 Okay, any more you want to add now, so you keep adding them. I'm glad to answer any question you have. Well, I mean I'm asking you. I mean, the factors are gone from yesterday to today, and now even after lunch, we've got some new ones. So anything else you want to add right now as to factors. As far as I don't believe that I've added any new factors, I believe that's what I said yesterday. All Right. I've explained some of those factors because of your questions, but I don't believe I've added any factors.

1:30:50 Okay, all right, let me move this forward just a little bit. Oh just so, most of this was stuff from. Yeah couple on but not. Yesterday in great detail about the boat case which you brought up on the nine one one call and to Daniel Green. Then, of course in this first interview, correct, I did mention the boat wreck, all right, and you described.

1:31:31 That. Do you remember what you said in this interview about the boat rack? No, specifically specifically the other people involved in the boat rack. You don't remember specifically? Do you remember specifically? I guess you said, now I remember talking about the boat wreck, and did I talked about the boat wreck? All right? Well, I'm gonna play now from seventeen fourteen. Mm hmm direct threats between any of the people on the boat specifically, but I do think there's there a small amount of yep yeap between a couple of them, but not recently. Okay, well it was the. Term you use for that small. Amount ye yet. Yeah, And just to be clear, mister Waters, there was never ever a point in time where I thought that the people that were involved in the boat wreck.

1:32:19 Did this to Paul, Paul and Maggie. I've never thought that. All right, I never thought that. But it's literally one of the first things that you said out of the nine one one call. No, that's not what I said. I never, ever, ever, under any point in time, believed that those kids that were riding in that boat, or their parents, or their parents or their families. I didn't believe that any of the families the people that were involved in the boat wreck had anything to do with hurting Maggie and Paul. But I can tell you that at that time, and as I sit here today, that. I believed that boat wreck is the reason why Paul, Paul, and Maggie were killed. And I believe.

1:33:02 That there was random vigilantes, the five two Vangilanes. Now what I believe, mister Waters is I believe that when Paul was charged criminally, there were so many leaks, half truths, half reports, half statements, partial information, misrepresentations of Paul that ended up in the media all the time. And when I tell you, the social media response that came from that.

1:33:48 Was vile. The things that were said about what they would do to Papa, they were so over the top. That nobody would believe anybody would get on social media and do that. But I believe then and I believe today, that the wrong person, the wrong person saw and read that, because I can tell you for the fact. That the person or people who did what I saw on June seventh, they hated Paul murdered, and they had anger in their heart, and that is the only, the only reason that somebody could be mad at Paul. Paul liked that and hate him like that.

1:34:47 Got all right, So we've got now. But that's why I did then believe it was the boat rack, and I believe now that the boat rack. All right, So we had got nothing to do with it. All right, So we've got random because of the boat wreck. Now I don't know that they're random vigilantes. Well, you just said it wasn't the family or the kid or there are the kids or the family of the other kids in the boat right footbool, So you're saying as somebody off of social media and you don't have any of the evidence of that. Dude, you just believe that, and you're telling that jury that as you try to explain the lie that you told for the first time yesterday. Isn't that right? No, sir, that's right, It's not right. All right. Well, let me ask you a question then, So what you're telling this jury is that it's a random vigilante.

1:35:28 That's your twelve year old, the twelve year old five two people that just happened to know that Paul and Maggie were both at Mozille on June seventh. That knew that they would be at the kennels alone on June the seventh. They knew that you would not be there. But only between the times of eight forty nine and nine oh two that they show up without a weapon, assuming that they're going to find weapons and ammunition there, that they commit this crime during that short time window, and then they travel the same exact route that you do around the same time to al Meta. That's what you're trying to tell this jury. You got a lot of factors in there, mister Waters, all of which I do not agree with, but some of which I do.

1:36:10 You testified earlier that after this happened. Well, let me back up just real quick. When you were driving to and from Albia, Why were you in such a hurry? Why are you rolling seventy eighty miles an hour down that dark, beat up road. I wasn't in such a hurry. You weren't, No, sir, Selly Western Marks States five Septer three, sud You recognize this. I do. I tell the jury what that is. It's a nice cook, right, and what's it? In front of.

1:36:51 The house at Moseilla, and what's between the house and the Mercedes. The golf cart. Is that where it. Was on Janey eight? Do you recollect? No, sir, I mean it was near there, but that's not exactly where it was, No, sir, okay, Where was it where we would normally park. It would be a little bit closer to the shed, I mean a little bit closer to the to the house, to the bushes. When was that photograph taken? Well, do you recognize when it was taking? No, I don't. I don't recognize. This wasn't dispute that it was around the time in the aftermath of the murders.

1:37:35 After math being when. I'm asking you a day, a week or hour. I wasn't there, mister murder. Do you recognize that. I recognized the car, I recognized the house, and I recognized the golf cart. But that is not that's that's not exactly how it would have been that night. Can you can you describe to need them where it would be different. Well, it would be more in line with first things. First, is when we drove the golf cart, or when I drove it, for sure, and I believe when the others drove it you would come in, and you would you would go across the little brick walkway that's in front of this.

1:38:21 So if I would have come in and gone this way, or I would have come in and gone this way, this is not a place that any of my family would have normally partnered it. And so what I'm assuming is this obviously is taken at daytime, and what I'm assuming is is it was taken when Sled came to that The earliest it was taken was when Sled came to the house the next day, which I believe the testimony is in the afternoon. And at this point in time that golf cart, I would assume would have been moved several times. But that's not how it was.

1:39:02 Well, where did you leave the golf park when you got out of it around eight forty nine. In the manner in which I just talked about. Okay, well help me out again. So I understand you you would have come around this way or that way, But where was it? Where would it end? It would have been in this picture is facing to the right. I got you the night the night that I drove it, I believe I parked it. Facing to the left would be customarily how I did it, and I believe I did it that way that night, and that is how I would have gotten into it. That's a very specific memory. Thank you all right for states five seventy three admit it without a church, but I think, oh no, very briefly.

1:39:48 And see, mister Waters, you can see in the picture now that you've bring us up on screen, if you look to the right, you can see the actual steps, and just to the left of that would be where the little brick patty starts, So where I would normally park it. You would roll across those bricks and the end of the golf cart would be just past those. And we all normally parked it that way. Because the way you charge this golf cart is if you see that back seat that's sitting, you can see the edge. This is a three seat golf cart, and you can see the back seat. And a lot of golf carts have the charger. This sits on the floor or something.

1:40:31 This golf cart has a charger that's plugged in and a part of the golf cart, so you flip that seat up and it plugs in and the outlets are right up there by the door. Yeah, anything else you want to say about that. I'm gonna answer any questions you have, mister Waters, Why. I foresaid all that information and breaking etail? Gad you did the comments? This thing. All right, it's just never parked that way by the family.

1:41:24 Now the computer back, please, what's up, mister murdrack. I'm gonna put a second interview. This would have been in June the tenth. I'm not gonna play the whole thing, but I do want to go through a couple of things. With you, Okay, anything you want to go through this work. For the record, I'm gonna start, guys today. I'm gonna started at twenty three fifty five. This is the first interview trouble. She's been out of trouble with her stomach and her tooth.

1:42:04 I'm not positive. It was sort of a routine visit and I can't remember. She told me the name of it, and I can't. I want to say Gordyne. Gordeen Gordeyne is who I think she saw. So was she back home or else upper Town. Or six o'clock, seven o'clock. I don't think she got back quite that early. I think she got back a. Little bit later than that. Okay, what did you do today?

1:42:52 Were you at the officer? No, I was home. I can't even following out mester around. I uh, I was up at the house. I laid answered the knap on the couch. Probably, I don't know. Twenty five. I called Maggie, didn't get an answer, and. If I left to go to. My moms, she'd said she might ride with me and Clay. She normally doesn't when I go over there, and I think I texted. Her there when you repeated the lie that you decided.

1:43:38 Was that the moment that I decided to lie to mean old Dave Owen, I don't. I don't know, as I told you, mister Water, is the exact moment that I decided to lie, but at that point in time. But you did lie there, correct, I did. And she's very good about answering the folks at the house or calling me back. So that was odd, But it wasn't that a good deal? All right, I'm gonna go to the second interview. It's been previously admitted. Let me ask you this before we started. You said it earlier during your direct testimony that after these crimes happened, you were around family. Family was around you, your law partners around you pretty much every minute after that, correct, every waking minute. Then you say that yesterday.

1:44:29 Yes they were for a long time, all. Right, And this second interview is three days later. Is that right? That's correct? And in no time with any of your close friends and law partners and family do you confess the truth? Do you know I did not? Do you say, hey, man, I think I messed up? What should I do about this? No? I did I telling that lot at anyone? Are you until yesterday? Excuse me? You're not telling that lot of anyone until yesterday? Are you.

1:45:10 Not telling what life saying? I tried to tell somebody that I was lying. All right, red thing getting all right, crashing on my twelve twenty eight. Him he don't like the doctors making him go get his blood pressure checked. His feat had swollen enough recently. Well, so you know that was there was there was a big, huge deal. You know, we hung around the house for a little while. I know that Maggie went to the kennels. I don't know exactly where Paul went that he left the house.

1:45:55 To okay, towdy Maggie getting down to the kennels. I don't know exactly, but on normal occasions she would drive drive a buggy, trive, a four wheeler, or very common for her to walk. About Paul. Paul wasn't much of a walker, but he would use all of the others. But I mean, could be anyway, you know, I don't know exactly. I wish I could help you with that. So so they left and went down to the kennels. Well, Maggie went to go to. The kennels and Pole left. And I'm assuming, you know, I'm assuming Paul left because of you know what happened.

1:46:41 I mean, I'm su went to the. Kennel and what did you do? Once Once Maggie and Pole. Left, I stayed in the house and. I was watching TV looking at my phone, and I actually fell asleep on the couch. And what time did you you know, I don't know exactly what time I woke up, but when y'all get my phone, you know, I think one of the first things I did when I got up was called Maggie. Because I was going to my mom's. And I know I texted her because I checked my phone And what time when we said the text was? Yam like nine o six.

1:47:23 I didn't see that I got it riked out for me. Yes, yes, I got it. So you know I texted her, so I called her just before that. And I mean she she did an answer at that point, and I left to go to. My mom's. Y'all just have to look, I don't I'm not sure if I called. It Paul well, and that, and that's why we're getting phones so we can nail down the times and forgetting before everything. Pretty much all that was wise, wasn't. The part about me not being at the kennel.

1:48:03 Was a little also, not knowing that Paul went down there and not being sure that was a lie too, wasn't it. I mean, you're putting some detail on this thing, aren't you? Not knowing when Paul left everything about me not going to the kennel was a lie. And you're able to just do that. That's so easily and so convincingly and so naturally, don't you. I mean, that's nothing me to judge. That's true. It's an odd story.

1:48:50 I don't get to where I'm going. Right now. Do y'all have any good clues? So we we're trying to put a rush on that to get an answer quick and and hoping that's gonna tell us. Something that I mean, is it things you're thinking are going. To be helpful. Well, I mean to like the shop shells out there, that the case ins, the DNA swabs that we took from the door handle to see if anybody touched the door handles, any other places that we think somebody may. Have touched. While they were out there. You know, we're trying to collect DNA from that and that the last that which had the conclusion of this. But what I'm what I also ask because if we get a buckle slag the DNA squad from you, your your DNA is going to be there, but we need to eliminate it's one of the one that wants us developed, so you know we don't need.

1:49:46 To Yeah, it actually is. I mean, we we have talked to. Close to one hundred people trying to track people down and we're still tracking without and that's why you know who who follows with. I want to tell you one thing while I'm thinking about that. Paul was really an incredibly. Intuitive little dude. And I mean he was like a little detective. He was like a little detective of that what you said. That's what I said, and he was very intuitive, like I.

1:50:28 Said, And that was what Marion described is Maggie's term for how he was and keeping tabs on your pill usage. Wasn't that correct? That that was what Maggie said about him. For some reason, you decided to bring that up in this interview, didn't you. I mean, that was a ian that was a trade of Paul's personality. I mean, I think anybody who knew him would tell you how intuitive he was. Yure m h.

1:51:18 All right, for the record, I'm at forty six thirty. Well, thank you very much, so. Let's let's drave it. You don't have to call mean this. You thank you for that. When when yeah, well you and Paul got back to the house. Miss Maggie's there and y'all eat supper which has been prepared. And you say, you said you laid down and took a little that out and when you got up, Maggie and Paul was God the Lord of daily when you lay down. I believed that.

1:52:04 I'm not sure, but they. Weren't there when you book around nine o'clock fark or so when you made you call to Maggie to letter day. Nobody does in that house when I when I. Left, since they've just tried to narrow that the last time that. Fall and you shall fallow. Maggie's from y'a already suffer, Yes, sir Faling, Your answer. Was yes, sir, that's correct. So Waters by this point had to be thinking, unless he majorly fucks up, he's got Alex dead rights on this whole deal. So he decides to transition to the financial aspects of his crimes and Alex's accomplices to those crimes. Specifically, he focuses on Elex's friend at Palametto State Bank where he got the majority.

1:53:08 Of his loans. So listen to just how masterful creating Waters handles this aspect of the testimony, and Alex sorry asks excuses for why he did what he did, is it relates to those financial crimes. You're also going to hear him ask Eleck about Alex's theory of unknown assailants as the person's being responsible for these murders at Mozelle. And here's that about to go to the August twenty twenty one interview. But between that June tenth interview and the August interview, you we're not working very much, is that correct, if at all.

1:53:57 No, I definitely wasn't working very much. I think I was working a little bit, but no, not damn much at all. Did you go to Johnny Parker to borrow two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in order to cover the Ferris Field fees? I did? You didn't? I did. Did you tell him what that was for? No? I did not tell him what that was for. Did you go. To Rustle the Feet at Palmetta State Bank and get three hundred and fifty thousand dollars in order to help cover some of the Ferris fees that you had taken the sound Chris Wilson.

1:54:42 I did? And did you get those fees before you signed any paperwork or documentation? I've heard testimony about that in this case, but I can't. I can't tell you the specifics of that. You don't recall that, Do I recall when I said on paperwork? No, sir, you don't recall that you got the money a month before you had to sign. An your paperwork. No, sir, I don't recall that. Call your phone being in the console with it. I'm not disputing that, but I don't recall it. Did you go to your best friend, Chris Wilson, and convince him to cover one hundred and ninety two thousand dollars the remaining one hundred and two ninety thousand dollars in order for him to send that email to your law firm as if those fees had been there all along.

1:55:33 I spoke to Chris Wilson and did not have the full amount of the fees, and I got Chris Wilson to put your remaining fees in his trust account. And when you did that, you didn't tell him the truth about your life. You just asked him to cover you. I did not tell him, and he agreed to do that because of his belief of who you really were or who he thought you were. He agreed to do that for whatever as I assumed, that was a big part of it. And once that six hundred thousand dollars was transferred, Chris Wilson sent an email to you saying those fees have been there were in his trust account.

1:56:15 Correct, That is correct? And then you forwarded that email to Leek Hope and Genie Seconder. Correct. I know I afforded to Genie, and I've heard that testimony about forwarding it to Leeko. So I believe that's correct. I'll get it off from PSD because at that time there were limitations on how much I could borrow. Because MAGS was passed and so I was limited. I couldn't get a loan.

1:56:59 Against Moselle and had to get a loan against Palmetta State, I mean against uh Edista. Going to the third interview, all right, I'm gonna go to seventeen forty five. Three seen this, so I mean again, you repeated the same lies over and over again. I did effortlessly and convincingly.

1:57:45 I don't know about that. Well, they can see it there. I agree with that. Nobody yelled at you. Nobody yelled at mean, nobody, nobody. None of these guys were ever discourteous to me. Nobody what I said, None of those guys were ever discourteous to me. You made a comment earlier that David Owens was mean or something about being mean, and he was never mean to me. All right, But you decided to lie in part because you distrusted David Owen. I distrusted sled in general, and I particularly distrusted who I thought was David Owen at the time.

1:58:30 Who turned out not to be David Owen. So wait a minute, I want to be clear. You're saying now you thought that this was some David Owen that had something to do with Greg Alexander ten years ago. No, sir, and I'm not saying that now. I said that all along. Wow. The person that I saw and watched in Greg Alexander's trial that was clear to me was just it was terrible what they did to Greg Alexander, and the person had slid who was responsible for. That was a guy named David and I might even get into his last name. I thought that David Owens that night was that guy later down the road, and it was a while.

1:59:16 I checked into that, and I found out that I was mistaken that it was not David Owen. When wing back and we spent a lot of time going through this first statement. You're telling me now that you were sitting there thinking that this was a completely different guy the whole time, and that was on your mind during that entire interview. Yes, at the time I thought that David Owen. No, I didn't think David Owen was a different person. I thought that David Owens was the person that my dad and I had watched just my dad, and I truly thought evidence was manufactured, and I thought it was David Owen, And I was wrong about that, but that's what I thought that night.

2:00:04 Any other factors or details you want to about your decisions? Don't want to answer any question you have. You know anymore? Do you have any more questions? No, I mean anymore about your decision to lie. I mean, I just want to let's get it all out now. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer. All right, Well, I do. Tell me about the replacement blackout. You initially told law enforcement that you weren't sure whether or not there was one crack them right. Oh, no, sir, you're absolutely wrong about that.

2:00:45 What did you say that? Shortly after this, it became being told that Paul's gun had been stolen and uh, the one you heard talk about being stolen from the thing. And I'm not sure how I learned this, but I learned that somebody I believe Shlid, had gone to. John Bettingfield, who made those guns, and could only find paperwork for two blackouts, one of which they were saying was stolen in seventeen. And that's what they were telling me, and I was certain and told them that I was certain that there was a third one.

2:01:25 But initially in June eighth and June tenth or June tenth, you were saying that you thought that y'all had replaced it, and then you kind of waivered and then eventually said you did replace it. Correct. I don't believe that's correct. No, say that's correct. No, I don't believe that's you say the law enforcement that you thought that the third gun, the replacement blackout, had gone missing in Christmas of twenty twenty. It did go missing in Christmas twenty twenty. So you're telling them that one also had been missing six months prior. Right, and answer my question first, and then you can explain. Did you aught tell law enforcement that gun had been missing since Christmas time? I told law enforcement that when we looked for it at Christmas time, we could not find it, and that was that was accurate. We looked for it when we were trying to shoot hogs, when we had a group of people out there, and we could not find it.

2:02:20 Okay, but you now know that it was there's the latest Turkey season. I know I know that will love and Paul. Paul had it. Right before Turkey season like will Love and testify too, So it was around Actually it was around there at some point in time there, Yes, sir, So. You're saying a guy stolen a second time or you just don't know. No, I'm not the twelve year old sotol it a second time. I never said a twelve year old stole any gun. Mystery with my two people stole it a second time. I don't know that it was stolen. I just know that when we look for it at Christmas time, we couldn't find it.

2:03:05 And I know this. I know that I hadn't seen that gun in a long time. I've heard the testimony that people who were at my house using guns and hunting with us all the time, Rogan uh Buscher, they didn't I can't remember about Busher, but there were several people who didn't even know that gun had been replaced. So that tells me that that gun did not stay where our regular guns were. And I know that I didn't see it there, and that tells me that they didn't see it there. And of course you didn't see it there, because it's got to be messing.

2:03:47 That's that question. Of circumstance for your latest story to work is that it's got to be kissing as well. It was when you sold law enforcement. It was missing your Christmas time. Now we've had testimony of this trial and now you're you're still claiming that you never saw it. It must have been kept somewhere else Where else would it have been kept. It could have been kept anywhere, mister Waters. For the way Paul did guns, the way guns were handled around there, I. Was terrible about that. You're terrible about that. I should have been stripped. But you know that that third gun was fired right outside the gun room door in Turkey season of twenty twenty one, correct.

2:04:35 I know that now based on what Will Loban said. And you know it was also fired across the street y'all shooting house around that same time, don't you. You know, sir, I don't know that, but I know that I would assume that it was fired at the shooting range, but I have no I don't have any reason to believe it was done in close proximity that time. A few months go by, A couple of months go by, and you get confronted about your thefts from the law firm. Correct. September of twenty one.

2:05:16 And unlike June the seventh when Jeannie confronted you, this time they had unasstainable evidence. Correct. Yeah, that's correct. I mean they had no weggling out of this one. Correct. I didn't try to while out of this one. Boy. You've been weggling before, though, right. You wiggled when you stole your brother's money twice. Correct. I admit almost all of these things, mister Waters. But that's one of the things that I take dispute with, which one that I stole that money that you're referring to. You're gonna dispute that. Let's hear about that. Then tell me why you dispute fashion that checked twice.

2:06:00 I don't dispute cashing that check twice. What you're gonna tell this jury that you accidentally didn't realize that you were supposed to be receiving some one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars check on one hundred and twenty however, thousand dollars check two times. What I'm telling twenty thousand dollars checks do you receive. I got that check and this is several months after me. You can look at my finances and you can you can see how I was doing. I didn't balance a check book. But the fact of the matter is when I got that check, I asked about it and I was told mistakenly that that it was for me that I had I had done participated in that year and thing which I did sometimes, not often, but sometimes.

2:07:00 Apparently A new check got cashed. I cashed that check. Then a year later, Yeah, where did you keep that one? For you? I don't know where it was. It was obviously in my desk. But mister Waters, so you found it in your desk? No, I didn't find it. Well, you say it was obviously in your desk, So you remember that you remember finding it in your desk? No, I remember when we did you go to. Finance and say, I just found this year old check. Is this right? No? No, you turned to the bag, didn't you. No? Sure, I didn't, not allowing mister Murder to answer the question. So when this came up, When this came up, that check got cashed.

2:07:42 There's no way that I can have a check in our law firm, with the way accounting is, and that I can cash a check twice and think that. That's impossible. So to cash a check that's already been checked, it's gonna throw There's no question it's gonna throw that off. What happened is I had an we used to get a rent check. We get little checks. I'd have checks, and they pile up the small checks. That check got mixed in and it got sent to the bank and it got deposited. And that was a year after. But I do dispute that I stole that money. That money, all right?

2:08:32 Well, I mean you brought up so any of the other money you dispute seeing No, sure you brought it up. I was just telling you that that was the one I disputed. All right. And you heard Ronnie Crosby and Martin Ball testify about that, correctly. I heard Ronnie and Mark testify about what they thought about it. Yes, sir, testified yesterday about the side of the road. Yeah, yes, sir. And then you heard the testimony during the States Direct about what you said on the nine to one one call. You heard that, didn't I did hear that. You heard the nine one one call where you said you've been attacked by an unknown assailant and described him.

2:09:14 I did. And you. Saw the video from the ambulance where you said you'd been attacked by an unknown assailant and described him. I did. And you heard the testimony from Ryan Kelly, where you again went into detail and described this attack from an unknown assailant. I did. And you heard the testimony about your interview on September sixth with law enforcement in which you went into great detail and again described this unknown assailant. I did. And you heard the testimony, and in fact, the image was put in about how you sat down with a sled sketch artist and spent a period of time with her going forward and creating an image of the supposed assailants.

2:10:09 I did sit down with it. I was in the hospital and they came in, sat down with me, asked me a bunch of questions. I answered their questions. And yes, you did. You sat a it came up with a composite Yes, sir. Sat there and answered their questions just as effortlessly and convincingly as you've been trying to do for the past two days. And that correct, No, sir, that's that's not true. In that hospital, I was, I was. I mean I couldn't sit still. I was standing up. I was walking around. I was using the bathroom with the lady sitting right there. I was, you know, I was two days into not taking three days into not taking pills like I had been.

2:10:56 So no, it wasn't effortlessly. But I mean I told them what I told them. I don't dispute that I liked. It was all lies, though, is the point correct? It was? I mean you're saying with draws, but you still were able to pull off lies in great detail. I lied to them, And the lie that you told. Of an unknown assailant was to try to make people think that the quote real guy, bad guys were back again to finish the job. Isn't that true? No, so that's not true. That's not the effect that you intended that story to have. Did it have that effect on people that you knew?

2:11:39 I don't that the exact effect that it had. I don't. I don't. I don't think there's many people that believed that. No, sir, I know the people that were I mean, the people that were closest to me didn't believe that. So accountability is that your door, mister Murdock's bad things happened, don't It's not true. When accountability my lifestep bad things happen. What do you mean by bad things? June seventh happened, September fourth happened. I don't believe that June seventh happened because accountability issues were at my doorstep. Now I do believe in September that I tried to get a man to help me kill myself because issues were at my doorstep.

2:12:43 Every time. I'm sorry. For the first time in your life of privilege and prominence and wealth, when you're facing accountability each time, suddenly you became a victim and everyone ran to your aid, isn't that true? I mean I disagree with that, but. I mean what you're saying for your extraordinary provocation, isn't that true? Mister murder? Let me just finish this. You you seem to be implying two days June the seventh in September and talking about accountability issues, and I mean those to me, those two.

2:13:29 Things are totally different. There were no accountability issues on my doorstep on June the seventh, that's what you say, and in September not what other people say. I was trying to. Well, No, I mean been a lot of people you know in September. That wasn't design to gain me sympathy. That was designed for me not to be here because I didn't want my son to have to deal with the wake of the things that I had done.

2:14:13 But that's not the story you told. The story that came out of your mouth right away was the story of you getting attacked by some unknown ceiling while you were trying to change a tire and run flats. Well, that's just the story that you told. That is the story I told. But that's because. The man who shot me did not shoot me that day as I intended, and I had to have a story as to how I got shot. So I lied. So you lied, And you're saying that people in your family and your friends didn't instantly believe that whoever these twelve year old marauders were, were back to finish the job. You keep using.

2:14:54 It happen just for a few hours after you had been confronted by Chris Wilson. I think probably some people may have thought that when it first happened, but I think, like Randy Ronnie Mark, those guys. I think they knew very quickly that. This was not. That. I think they knew this was something that i'd done. Shame for you. I asked this before. But shame for you is an extraordinary provocation, isn't it. Mister Murnat? Shame for me is an extraordinary provocation. I don't like to be shamed.

2:15:37 The prospect of humiliating the legacy is an extraordinary provocation to you, isn't it, mister Murdon? What do you mean by an extraordinary provocation? It affects you deeply. It's your biggest concern, is it not. No, that's not my biggest concern. You're a middle aged man like me. I'm fifty four years old. I'm not sure you look like you're in better shape than me. So no, No, that was actually a couple of years behind you in law school. But we never knew each other, did we. I never knew you. Know, sir. Had a very successful career up until this point.

2:16:24 A question, and the answer to that is no, mister Waters, I was an addict for more than twenty years. All right, so out, So making millions of dollars over over a decade is not having a successful career. Is that what you're gonna tell the jury? No, that's not a successful career. When you Okay, well, let me put up my let me just all right, go ahead. You know it may have been what you perceive as a successful career, but you know I was the one who was fighting that. You don't have a very high self esteem when you're an addict, So I don't deem myself of success.

2:17:16 Would you agree that, at least outwardly, you're perceived as successful. I made. I made, I made a bunch of money, if that's what you're wanting to get at. No, I'm not actually asking about the perception you were perceived as a prominent. I tried to be lawyer. How I was perceived lawyer? I sure tried to be lived a life of possessing authority. Possessing authority, yeah, we saw the badges you just admitted of your prominence in the legal community. I don't think that I lived a life of possessing authority. I never saw myself as that way. If you don't think you lived a life of privilege. I think I was very privileged.

2:18:02 But as we moved to June of twenty twenty one, you were suffering from a drug addiction. Absolutely, your father was termly ill. When I mean as we moved to June of twenty twenty one. No, sir, he was very ill. He was very ill, and you were. Coming to a point a financial crisis. I was. Having financial issues like I'd had many times in the past.

2:18:43 Mister Murdock, are you a family annihilator? A family annihilator you mean like, did I shoot my wife and my son? Yes? No. I would never hurt Maggie Murder, would never hurt Paul Murder under any circumstances. Say that, Excuse me say that. But you lied to Maggie, didn't you. I did lie to Maggie. You lied to Paul.

2:19:24 Sometimes. You lied to your father, I'm sure I did. At some point. Did you tell him all the stuff you had been up to over the years before he died? No, I didn't tell him. July to your brothers. About financial things. Yes, I would have lied to Randy at some point, I'm sure. July to him about the last time you saw your wife and son alive. Did j a lot of their wives? I'm sure I did. Mary Procter, yes, July to Bark Croctor, Yes. Did you lie to the brand Stutters?

2:20:07 Yes? Did you lie to your best friend Chris Wilson? Probably? Did you lie to your other friend, Baron Bullwear when you took his money. No, sir, No, I didn't lie like I told you. I didn't lie directly to him. I lied to him by a mission like like we talked about it me he was. I didn't talk to him. I didn't see him at that time. Did you a lot to your law partners? I did July to him about the kennels, some of them. July to Mark Ball. Uh.

2:20:47 Yeah, I believe based on what Mark said, I believe I. Did July to Ronnie Crosby. According to what he said, I believe I did July to Johnny Parker. I don't believe I ever discussed that with john Did you. Tell him about the finances when you borrowed that money in July of twenty twenty one? I don't know if I lied to him about. And I don't Johnny. I don't think Johnny asked me. I don't think I had to lie to Johnny about that. So I don't know. Did you, Well, you didn't certainly didn't disclose to him the truth when you borrowed that two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Did you. I did not tell him what I was going to use it for.

2:21:29 I mean, didn't we have to say before that not telling the whole truth was the same as telling the lie. Sure it is. You don't think that's a lie, though I don't. I'm just saying, mister Woods, I'm not taking issue with that. But I don't even know that. Johnny and I, I mean, Johnny had loaned me money numerous times. It wasn't any long sit down discussion where Johnny wanted to know exactly what I was doing with it. That conversation would have been I needed it. Johnny was always willing to help me, and that would have been the conversation. So on that specific event that I lie to him, I don't know. Yeah, he ended up being out four hundred seventy seven thousand dollars, didn't he He ended up being out a lot of money, and thank you for your qualifications as to that. Did July to Leek Coke, I don't know.

2:22:19 I don't know if Lee Cope was around when I said that or not. Juli to Danny Henderson, I did a lot of Danny. Jul to Jenny secondary. I don't about finances, Yes, I did. You ever didn't ever talk to her about the kennels. No, I wouldn't think so. July to in that Grizswold. I did. Juli of Christy Jerald, your other secretary for paralegal. I don't believe she and I discussed. I would have at some point, I'm sure. JULYI to Michael Gunning. I'm sure I did at some point, but mean, Michael wasn't involved in any of this, so I don't know that any of this ever came up with Michael.

2:23:04 July to your clients. Did you lie to Pamela Pinkney, I did Natasha Thomas. I don't know that I dealt with Natasha, but I certainly lied about that. Again, I don't know that I talked to Keene, but I certainly lied about that. Arthur Badger I did the Pliler Girl. That's I'm not sure that I talked specifically to them, but I lied about that. Dion Martin, I lied to Dion Johnny Bush Yes, Manuel Christiani. I didn't have any conversations with him, but I certainly lied about it.

2:23:45 Jamie Rischer yes, Randy Drawdy yes, Jordan Jenks yes, Mary Duncan yes, Adrianna Hay yes, Angel Gary. Yes. Christopher Anderson, Yes, the least Mallory, yes, Thomas Moore. No, you never lied to him. You just took his money. He never had actually a lot of his faces what you're saying. He and I never had a conversation. But I did take that I did take those that money.

2:24:30 Did you lie to Tony Saderfield? Just a couple of months before June seventh, we saw the text. Do you want me to get it out? Just remind me. There's been a lot. Just remind me what it was. Let me show you what's been marked four sixty three. Then I don't remember that. It was that date too, that was in April twenty twenty one. Was that right where you texted him and tell him how hard you're working on the case, when in fact you had stolen millions of dollars from him? Had any Ciderfield who got up on this stand and told the jury about that?

2:25:10 I texted him on April twelveth so five weeks before. Jane seven, told him everything was okay, you're working hard, right, it's a complex case. Yeah, I told him I was working on the case. He was the son of your longtime housekeeper, Gloria. I'm sorry he was the son of your. Longtime housekeeper, Gloria, who had served your family for many years.

2:25:52 That's correct, And you stole millions from those boys. I stole those bunks. And he and his family had started asking questions as we moved to June seventh. Did not happen, No, I mean there wasn't any rising them asking questions, No, sir. I mean he periodically checked in and asked me questions. But you know it had come out long before this. I believe in the Island packet that there had been a settlement of five hundred thousand dollars, But I mean that had been months and months, if I'm not mistaken, And so I didn't notice any uptick in Tony asking questions. And I don't believe that there was any uptick in Tony asking questions before June the seventh.

2:26:59 So you just just, gratuitously, out of the blues, decided to lie to him and send that text. Or were there things going on externally that caused you to need to head him off at the past before further questions started to be asked about money. You couldn't make that at back point He's on. No, I don't think there was anything I mean on April twenty. First, I don't know what external factors you talking about. Do you want to explain that one anymore? Explain what whatever you want? I just want to answer you question. Mister Waters lied to everyone about the side of the road that people that came to stopped to help in the ambulance folks and the nine to one one and Ryan Kelly and the composite sketch artists and all of them. Correct.

2:27:53 I lied to a lot of people about that. You know why people lie, mister Murdock, because they know they've done something wrong. For the most time, I do, and you've been able to lie quickly and easily and convincingly if you think it'll save your skin for well over a decade. Isn't that true? I have lied well over a decade, and you want this jury. To believe a story manufactured to fit the evidence that you brought forth just yesterday after hearing this trial's worth of testimony. No, sir, that's not correct, mister Murdock. We went through this for a while. But you remember the beginning of your testimony, I asked you whether or not you agreed that trying to explain your presence on the kennel video was the most important part of your testimony before this jury? You remember that and you said, oh, not the most important. I said it was at least important.

2:29:19 You recall that from yesterday. I recall you asking those questions, just sir. And you agree it's important, don't you. I agree that as an important component, But I think there's a lot of important components. And you testified yesterday and during cross yesterday and cross today. It's kind of evolved on the fact of the factors that led you to decide to lie at some point during that interview with David Owen. Correct. I disagree with that, and I don't think those factors have evolved. I mean, you've asked some most specific questions, but those factors are still the same factors. You may have asked questions and gained a little more detail, but those factors haven't changed.

2:30:09 But it was the dope paranoia. It was the fact that the deputy took your GSR. It was the fact that your law partners and Greg Alexander and the sheriff were telling you you needed to have a lawyer before we talked to police. It was a factor that you got in the car with Dave Owen and thought he was somebody else from some case ten years ago. Correct. That believing David Owens was the person involved. In the case that I talked about was one of the factors that caused me to distrust slid Right. And then also you said that they started asking you about in that first interview about your relationship with Maggie and Paul, and that's one thing you mentioned as well.

2:30:50 Correct, And that was certainly something that contributed to me having paranoid thinking. Playing the Daniel Green bodycom video twenty twenty six. Put a couple of feels. About I'm gonna chick there there. They are paid on it. Yes, said, that's that's what it looks, right, you had.

2:31:37 A policy hair here that mm hmm, there's no grub Okay. When was the last time you were here with them or talk to them or anything like that? Mm hmmm. It was earlier tonight. H. I don't know the exact time, but I left. I was struggling going an hour and. A half of my mom's and I saw them about forty five minutes before that. And it'll scharge of dream correct, Yeah, I'm Sergey dreaming And at that point in time, Sled was not there.

2:32:27 No one had gotten GSR from you, Your law partners or Sheriff Hill were not there. It's correct. No one had asked you about your relationships. David Owen was not there, It's correct. But just still told the same lie. And all those reasons that you just gave this jury about the most important part of your testimony was a lie to. Isn't that true, mister Murdock. I disagree with that nothing further. I fucking love that. What a way to end your questioning now. At this point, the defense were buttles and they focus on a couple of things with regard to Alex movements and the roadside shooting and what Alex intent was.

2:33:15 And here's that. This is in evidence, and this is Agent Rudowski's a timeline that says Maggie Murdoch's phone iPhone shows fifty nine steps traveled between eight fifty three fifteen and eight fifty five thirty two. Were you walking with Maggie Murdoch's phone during that period of time. I wasn't welcome with Maggie's phone anytime that night. And if you'll look at Agent Rudowski's entries as their entry of her phone showing steps during any time between nine o two and nine oh six, You see any on this page from eight to fifty three read to eight fifty five. No, sir, If you'll turn the next page, page forty six, going down to your steps, is there any recording of phone steps, phone recording steps recording to the data we now have from Maggie's phone at any point in time up to nine oh.

2:34:27 Two, No, sir. And had you repeatedly asked Slid to get the data from the on star from the cell phones to evaluate whether your phone and maggie phone Maggie's phone were ever moving at the same time, made that multiple requests. I repeatedly asked David Owens about that information. When you asked that question, You're aware that Maggie's phone had been located, you know, down the road a mile or I mean half a mile or more? Is that right?

2:35:09 Yeah? I knew where her phone had been located. And why was it Why was it important to you to get that information? Because I knew that whoever had done this to them had Maggie's phone, and I knew that my phone. And Maggie's phone in my car were never together at any point in time. Sure, now you have. Given inaccurate times and many statements to law enforcement in this case, have you not? I did, and we were reviewed some of those in your examination. I mean one was Paul getting to Moselle around five pm? Do you remember that?

2:36:08 I do? Were you lying to Agent Owen? Is there anybody when you said Paul got there at five pm? No? I wasn't lying to them. I mean I thought that at the time. And when you. Most of the times, when a lot of the times when I gave times, I qualified them and say, but you know you can look at this. I pointed them to my office, to the car log like to the key card like we talked about on my phone, or my own star. And when you. Told the agents that you thought you got to the office eight thirty nine o'clock on that morning of June seventh, were you wrong? Right?

2:36:49 I was wrong? Were you lying? No? I wasn't lying. And when Deputy Green drove up and first you had to first encounter with him, I believe you told him that you had been gone to your mom's house for an hour and hour and a half. Is that right? We just heard it. The last one, Yes, sir, Yeah, hour and a half. I think that is what I taught him. Hour and a half, and that the last time you saw Maggie and Paul was forty five minutes before that.

2:37:34 Yeah, that's what I said. And when you spoke to Agent Green, I mean, Deputy Green, it was about I think the record show they didn't arrive on the scene until ten twenty two or something like that. Is that right? That sounds right? And I mean I think that's what the record show. That sounds right. And that were you lying to agent excuse me, Deputy Green with when you told him what time how long you thought you'd been at your mother's and the last time you saw Maggie and Paul. No, sir, I wasn't lying to him. Were you trying to mislead him in any way?

2:38:15 No, sir, not when mister Green got there. Now, you've admitted the first few questions that I ask you yesterday and multiple times today, that that that you lied to Agent Owen and Dephanie Rutland and Agent Owen and Agent Croft and on a couple occasions about your whereabouts following dinner. Correct. I did light to them as we discussed and impeatedly. And you've explained that it was just addiction, opioid induced parent paranoia just couldn't shake.

2:38:58 Is that right? That's right? You know, like I said, there's certain things anything make you paranoid. But I could get over it really quickly. But that night I did it and you had a bag of pills in your pocket? Did you not? I did? And when you got down to the kennels, We're not going to repeat all that, but did you ever see anybody down there? Anybody else? Now, there was nobody. There wasn't anybody down there when I was there. And did you believe that the information, whether you were there or not there, would advance their investigation.

2:39:45 An any way? No? I didn't. I didn't think that. And why didn't you think that? Because they were fine in doing good when I left there. On the on on one call. Uh. Do you remember that the call first went to Hampton? I don't remember that, but I know that now. And and and what we played here in the court in your testimony was the Callidon County handoff. Do you recall that. I do recall that. I think at some point the part in Hampton might have gotten played too, didn't it, but I know the main part was to call them part.

2:40:29 But it's like a minute into the call. But initially it went to Hampton and then subsequently it was transferred to call. That's right. And then a minute or so into the Callington call, you said, I've been up to it, now, do you remember that. I do remember saying that. I remember hearing it. I don't remember saying that, but I remember hearing it. And that's I mean that that is accurate. And by up to it, at that point, I had.

2:41:10 Gone all the way up to them. At that point when I first got out, I was close, but I wasn't right at them, I don't think right. You were asked about the roadside shooting and and your intent was to end your life that day, was or not? It was new question, and. And you were shot but not killed, and then you made up a lot to law enforcement about. What happened, right, That's correct? Were you trying to protect Curtis Aity Smith by doing that?

2:41:50 Was I trying to protect Curtis ad Smith? Yes, I mean I don't know exactly at all had to come together so quick. I don't know that I was trying to protect Curtis Eddie Smith. I may have been, but it was just you know, I wasn't supposed to be there, and then. I was. When you say I wasn't supposed to be there, what do you mean by that. I intended for him to I mean I intended to be gone. I intended for him to shoot me, and I intended to be gone. And the one thing, the main, my main concern at that point was that I did not want Buster. I did not want Buster, knowing that I had tried to do that, That was my motivation in telling that story.

2:42:51 Did you eventually voluntarily conveyed Agent Kelly and others that that was a fabrication? I did? I did after I don't know a few days in. Detox, when I finally got over those initial it's where I could. Function. I think I told you first, Then I think I told Buster. Then I think I told Randy and John, and y'all arranged either the next day or two days later to come and we called Ryan Kelly.

2:43:38 I'll let you. You've lied to your family over many years, have you not? I lied to my family about my addiction, and. You hid from them you were stealing client money, did you not? Oh? I never They didn't know anything about that. And you've lied to your law partner about financial dealings and perhaps your addiction. Yes, and you've lied to. Law enforcement about not going down to the kennels after dinner, but eating dinner and taking a nap.

2:44:21 Did you not? I did all? Right? Right here? Turn up those speakers right here, The defense asked the question we all want to know by this point, directly to Alex Murdall's face. Alex, did you murder Maggie? I would never hurt Maggie? Did you murder Paul? I would never hurt Paul. Yes, I was under the pressure that they're talking about here. I can promise you I would hurt myself else before I would hurt one of them without a doubt.

2:45:11 Thank you. That's all the questions from here. Well, what do you think? Did he sound convincing? But waters wasn't quite dumb without He provides his own rebuttle with this, said. That you were. Concerned when you talked to David Owen about the bag of pills in your pocket. Correct? I mean, no, sir, I don't know. I'm not saying that I was concerned about that. I don't think I told you I was concerned about that. I'm just telling you that was that was a fact. I had a bag of pills in my pocket, and that was one of the things that was one of the many things that came together that night.

2:45:56 And you're trying to tell this jury that has a reasonable well husband and father in this situation, concerned about a bag of pills in your pocket was more important to you than telling law enforcement and narring the time when you last saw your wife and son a lot. That's what you want to convince Ssteria. Know, because I mean, the bag of pills in my pocket was not what I was concerned about sitting in there. It was, as I said, it was one of the many things that was going on. But I wasn't sitting there worried about those pills in my pocket.

2:46:40 You were asked about requesting. The phone and. Automobile data, and that was because as a prosecutor and a lawyer, you had been manufacturing an alibi to cover your tracks. No, so that's absolutely wrong. You ad met you were wrong about a lot of things and what you tall law enforcement about June seventh, correct. I was I was wrong about things.

2:47:27 Some things. You're asked whether or not you voluntarily confessed to Agent Kelly, but you only did so after being confronted with undeniable information. Correct, No, sir, that's that's not correct at all. What I was told is that, and I believe this came from Randy. What I was told is that Slid had come up with some information that seemed like it was consistent with my story and they needed me to verify some things, is what they told me. And you know, I knew that resources had already been wasted. I didn't want them wasting any more resources.

2:48:21 And I told them the truth, but there wasn't any Nobody had presented me with any evidence. And you just testified that you told Jim Griffin first. Correct. I believe that I told Jim Griffin first. But at that time, you didn't say anything about those kennels. Did you. To Jim Griffin at that time? No, sirah, I didn't. When you testified on direct yesterday and you were asked about leaving the kennels with your new story in light of the evidence has been presented in this trial, your words were, I got out of there. Correct.

2:49:04 I believe that's what I said, Yes, sir, And. You also said during your testimony on cross examination that you hurt the ones you love the most, didn't you. I did say that. Than in saying that, mister Waters, I just want to explain that answer, and he just asked me a question about what I said, and I was going to explain why I said it, As I told you earlier, you're implying to this jury and to me that that was me talking about hurting Maggie and Paul, and that's not what that was. What that was is me saying, I know I hurt my brother, my partners, my clients, many of whom I told told you I loved, all of whom I cared for.

2:50:05 And that's what that was. When I'm talking about. How my misdeeds, how I hurt the people worst were the ones I love the most. I just asked you what you said, crag. Mister Murda, you did ask me what I said. But in asking me that, you're putting an implication on there that I am explaining. I just asked you what you said. Okay, yes, sir, thank you. Nothing from me. Wow. In my opinion, Murda just got decimated by Creaking Waters and I personally loved it. Hey, thank you so much for hanging in there with me on this one. I know it was a long episode, but I didn't want to drag out this series any further than I have to, and we still got a ways to go yet. My goal is to complete this one in thirty episodes. We're on twenty two now, so we're getting close. And until next time, for exposed scandalous files of the Elite, I'm your host, Jim Chapman.

2:51:24 Much love,