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March 26, 2025

"Murdaugh" Episode Twenty Five | A New Trial?

"Murdaugh" Episode Twenty Five | A New Trial?

This episode examines the aftermath of the Murdaugh trial and the hearing focusing on Clerk of Court Becky Hill’s allegations of jury tampering.

#beckyhill #juror785 #murdaugh #podcast #murder #trial #conviction #exposed #podcast 

Timestamps
08:03...

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Season 1

This episode examines the aftermath of the Murdaugh trial and the hearing focusing on Clerk of Court Becky Hill’s allegations of jury tampering.

#beckyhill #juror785 #murdaugh #podcast #murder #trial #conviction #exposed #podcast

Timestamps
08:03 Jury Tampering Claims Arise
19:16 Testimony of Clerk Becky Hill
28:51 Cross-Examination Begins
35:27 The Book Controversy
43:33 Allegations of Influence on Jurors
50:51 Concluding Statements and Reflections
59:35 Juror Discussion Insights
1:00:09 Judge's Concerns on Juror Interactions
1:01:01 Handling Sealed Exhibits
1:08:26 Literary License and Jury Influence
1:10:49 Testimonies and Their Implications
1:21:04 Verdict Integrity and Juror Testimonies
1:27:13 The Role of the Clerk of Court
1:35:48 Credibility Issues in Testimonies
1:40:34 Call for a New Trial
1:51:16 Reflections on the Ruling
1:55:50 Resignation Announcement
2:01:17 Uncovering the Truth Behind Resignation

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WEBVTT

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Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of

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the Elite. I am your host, Jim Chapman, and we

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are back with this twenty fifth episode of the mrdall series.

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And the last time that I left you, there were

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a ton of allegations regarding jury tampering in this case

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that came out just weeks after Alex mrdall was found guilty.

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The egg jarr became a household name, and it was

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discovered that not only was this juror out of her

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own mouth, going to find Murdall not guilty, but that

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the whole reason she was released from a jury really

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boiled down to a Facebook post that, according to her

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and really anyone outside of then clerk of court, that

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Hill did not exist. This discovery right here, I can't

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tell you how dire things were looking for the state

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of South Carolina after these allegations came out. Could it

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be that Elec Murdock would be granted a completely new

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trial based off of this, Well, let's get into it.

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So the pressure mounts quickly for Becky Hill, the clerk

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of court, after the motion for a new trial was filed.

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I went over that motion with you last week that

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was on September fifth of twenty twenty three, and because

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Judge Clifford Newman dismissed that egg jur he recused himself

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from presiding over this upcoming hearing. As a matter of fact,

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another well respected judge took the reins of this hearing

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and her name was Chief Justice Jean Told. To tell

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you a little bit about the very impressive and story

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career of Chief Justice Told, she began her career in

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the seventies as a trial lawyer. She then served as

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a state rep in the South Carolina legislature before becoming

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the first woman ever elected to South Carolina Supreme Court.

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This was in nineteen ninety eight. Then in the year

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two thousand, she became the Chief Justice for the state

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of South Carolina, the highest ranking judge in the whole state.

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And she was no nonsense, extremely sharp on the law,

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and you could really not find a better judge for

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this type of thing. So time moves on a bit

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as both sides prepare for this hearing. And it's important

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to note here that with these hearings there is no jury.

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Lawyers for both sides present a case and they questioned witnesses,

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but it's done only in of the judge, and unlike

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a typical trial, a judge can question witnesses as well,

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and the judge decides the merit of the case either way,

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and the judge makes a verdict based on that end.

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So on January twenty ninth, three months after the motion

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for a new trial was filed, the hearings take place

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and they focus on Becky Hill for the most part,

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and these jury tampering claims, and Becky Hill had to

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testify along with some others. But really it's the testimony

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you're about to hear that matters the most. So I'm

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going to play Becky Hill's testimony for you now and

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then I'll comment on it after you listen to it.

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It's a little lengthy, but very important. Do not skip

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through this one.

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Here it is miselle.

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How are you?

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I'm fine, I want to get started, if you would,

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if you could stay your full name for the record

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and spell it for the court or place.

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My name is Becky Hill, Lasting Hill, H I L

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L all.

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Right, and if you would just give us you're currently

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the cork of court for Collinson County.

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Is that correct?

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That's correct?

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And just very quickly, if you would what year were

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you elected as clerk of court.

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At the end of twenty twenty.

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At the end of twenty twenty.

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Yes, And prior to that, did you have any involvement

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or experience with the state judicial system?

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I did, And could you tell the court what that was?

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Please?

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I was a South Carolina official court reporter for about

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fourteen years, all right?

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And were you in being an official court reporter, you

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had served in the courtroom, which is miss Harris is

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here today?

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Is that correct? Or what was you And was that

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primarily in the fourteenth Circuit?

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It was primarily in the fourteenth Circuit. However, I did

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travel throughout the state.

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Did you have any other experience in your in professional

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experience prior to becoming a core reporter or clerk of court.

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I was a court reporter freelance for two years before.

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That, okay, And then any other professional proceeds you've had

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over the course of your career.

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I was able to be a middle school teacher, and

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I worked for the Board of Disabilities for a few

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years as well.

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Let me go ahead and just kind of get straight

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to it. In your capacity as Clerk of court and

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in your previous experience being a court reporter, Were you

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familiar with the rules that apply to court staff as

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it comes to interactions with JORGSD in the course of

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a criminal driwal or civil dropper that mat yes, all right,

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and could you tell the court generally what those rules

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are as far as what contact is permissible and what

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contact is not permissible.

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Just very quickly, the judge gives the law and gives

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the instructions for a jury, and the attorney will state

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their opening argument, their opening statements, their closing arguments, and basically, uh,

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the clerk of court and anyone else court reporter, we're

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there to My understanding would be to make sure that

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everyone's taken care of. Do you need some Kleenex? Do

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you need some water? Different things like that, just to

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make sure that they're taking care of.

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Is it common for clerks of court to have interaction

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with jurors from the course of a trial to see

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to those various logistical needs that you that you just described, Yes,

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and did that happen in the Murdock case? It did,

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and can give us example of some of the logistical

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things that you or other things that you would see too,

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to deal with any needs that the.

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Jurors may have.

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I mean, did you provide them food, coffee, make sure

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they were comfortable, things like that, yes, all of that.

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Provide blankets for.

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Them if they were cold.

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Our courtroom was very cold and call it in county.

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Yes.

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Did you provide them with asp or tiling off they needed,

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make sure coffee and snacks were available.

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Yes.

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Did you take lunch orders for them so that they

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were fed each day?

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Yes.

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At any time did you.

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Interact with any juror in an attempt to influence their

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view of the facts in the State.

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By Murdock case.

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No?

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All right, I want to.

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Ask you some specifics about that and some allegations that

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have been raised. At any time, did you tell the

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jury not to be fooled by evidence presented by mister

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Murdock's attorneys.

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I did not.

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At any time, did you instruct the jury to watch

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him closely and look.

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At his actions?

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I did not.

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At any time, did.

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You instruct the jury or tell the jury to look

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at his movements.

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No.

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At any time, as the jury moved to deliberate, did

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you tell the jury.

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This shouldn't take long.

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No.

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At any time did you tell the jury that the

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defense case watch out for the defense case they're going

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to try to throw you off, or anything along those

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lines that was meant to influence the jurors against mister Murdoch. No,

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let me ask you if you ever made any comment

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to the jurors about the fact that the defendant was

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going to testify. Did you have a conversation in the

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presence of the jurors prior to the defendant testifying about

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the fact that he was about to testify.

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It wasn't directly related to the jurors. I was talking

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to Misterville, who was our bailiff foreman, our bailiff over

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the jury, and I was talking to him about that.

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All right, And what did you say?

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I told him what I had just come from downstairs,

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telling my security and bailiff office that Judge Newman had

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allowed more testimony in regarding the financials, and then also

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the defendant had decided that he may testify, all right?

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And where were the jurors at the point that that

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conversation occurred.

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There were a few jurors standing in line, and there

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were some in the bathroom, I'm sure because they said

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they were waiting on jewors to get out of the bathroom.

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And there were some in the jury room, just milling

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around from what I could see looking down the hallway,

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and uh.

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And again what were what were they? What were the

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words that you said? And during that conversation, what were

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the effect of.

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Them to mister Bill?

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And what did you say?

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I told him that the that Judge Newman had was

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allowing more of the financial evidence in which would prolong

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the testimony in the trial a little bit, and also

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so that the defendant had decided that he was going

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to testify.

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Did you say anything about this being an important day,

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pay attention, We'll get coffee for you, things like that.

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I usually give a little pep talk to the jurors.

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It's sometimes hard sitting a long time, but my usual

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and I do remember saying, pay attention, it's a big

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day to day. Whatever you need, let mister Bill know

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or one of the other bailiffs, and they'll be glad

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to get it for you.

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Did your comments or were your comments in any way

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phrased in favor of one side or against another side,

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or were they at more of a neutral comment about

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paying attention?

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No, it was not for one side or the other.

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Were you present when the jury went to the Mozielle

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property to conduct the jury view I was, and was.

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Judge Newman there as well.

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He was.

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During the time that you were on the property, traveling there,

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traveling back. Did you have any conversation with the jurors

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where you made any comment about the substance of any

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testimony or any comment about this merriage or the strength

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of the case.

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No?

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No. Did you have.

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A quick comment to the four lady about how the

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property was beautiful and there were t olive trees there that.

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Bloom and smell good, or words to that.

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Effect, I did, all right.

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And was there any other conversation related that you had

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that you where you made any comment about the case

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or the merits or anything like that.

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Oh no, No.

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During the course of this trial, did you have a

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bailiff employee whose primary job it was to see to

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the jury and their security and to keep them separate

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from everyone else that was involved in this trial?

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I did? And who was that, mister Bill Pulk.

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All right, and he was ultimately the jury coordinator in

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this particular case, that's correct. During the course of the

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the deliberations once the jury went back there, did you

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have any contact with the juris or have any substantive

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discussion with them, not at all. Did you have any

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discussion with them about logistics, about staying in a hotel or.

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Anything like that, I did not.

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Did you have any interaction with the jurors or anything

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to do with them having smoke brakes or anything like that,

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I did not.

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During the course of the trial.

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Did you have any discussion or interaction with the jurors

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about them giving any interviews to the media or making

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themselves available to the media.

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I'm asking during the course of the trial.

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Yeah.

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Not.

239
00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:40.639
During the course of the trial.

240
00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.759
After the verdict had been reached and the case was

241
00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:46.639
in sentencing, did you have any conversation with any jurors

242
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:49.480
at that time after they had already entered their verdict

243
00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.080
and been individually pulled.

244
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.519
Yes, after the sentencing.

245
00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:55.639
All right, and tell the court what that interaction was.

246
00:12:55.679 --> 00:13:00.200
At that time, there were several outlets, news outlets that

247
00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:04.840
wanted to interview the jury as a whole and really

248
00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:09.000
wanted to get them up north to New York, and

249
00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:10.519
so I was trying to get a hold of all

250
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:14.559
the jurors to talk about that. That was something we

251
00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:15.519
had not prepared for.

252
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.519
Did you at all pressure the jurors to speak or

253
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.279
did you just tell them that it was their option

254
00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:22.600
to speak or not, and here's the contact information.

255
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:25.639
I did not pressure the jury to speak.

256
00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:29.480
Now, did you advise them that it was their decision

257
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.360
and their decision alone, whether or not they wished to

258
00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:32.080
speak to the medium?

259
00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:33.480
It was totally their decision?

260
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:34.759
And did you advise them of that?

261
00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:35.240
Yes?

262
00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:47.799
Yes, I asked again, But I just want to be sure.

263
00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:52.159
At any time did you make any comment.

264
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:54.440
To any duror, or in the presence of any duror,

265
00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:56.960
in which you had.

266
00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.759
All tried to influence them in fai over one side

267
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:01.519
or against another.

268
00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:02.600
I did not.

269
00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:08.080
Did you understand, being a longtime court employee in clurk

270
00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:11.000
of court, that that is outside the boundaries of what

271
00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.039
is appropriate interactions with the jurors.

272
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:13.840
During the course of the trial?

273
00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:15.200
Absolutely?

274
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:16.559
And did it any time?

275
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.279
Did you violate that rule that you understood? I did, not,

276
00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:22.080
of course indulgence.

277
00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:37.879
One money, mister Harkutan on cross examination, Ms.

278
00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.799
Hill, we spent six weeks together, didn't we? We did,

279
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:45.120
and during those six weeks you were helpful to me,

280
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:50.039
as you could be correct. I was accommodated just about

281
00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:56.120
every request I made. Yes, sir, Where were we Oh yeah,

282
00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:56.919
we're old friends.

283
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:03.000
You heard Uh that was the microphone that was supposed

284
00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.320
to You're fine where you are? Absolutely fine?

285
00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:10.120
Yes, And it was obscuring my ability to question a witness.

286
00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:14.080
Yes. Well, what I'm wondering is whether you can be

287
00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.159
heard without a microphone. Do we need to try to

288
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:22.480
get a microphone on this poti? Yeah, that would be good.

289
00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.720
All right.

290
00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:31.399
I don't know who's supposed to hear this other than you,

291
00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:37.039
but I assume they can hear us. Core reporter. I'm sorry,

292
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.080
she's more important as important as you.

293
00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:40.679
Yeah, I agree.

294
00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.759
Oh yeah, we're old friends. Right. We spent six weeks

295
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.399
together in a very pressure filled situation.

296
00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.000
Correct, it was a long six weeks.

297
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.799
It was a long six weeks. And during those six

298
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.600
weeks you were helpful to me in a number of

299
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:03.840
different way, accommodating friends that I had the one to

300
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:05.240
come watch the trial, for instance.

301
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:06.840
Correct, that's correct.

302
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:09.679
You even allowed me to use the private restroom down

303
00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:11.360
on the first floor so I didn't have to stand

304
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.799
in line with the rest of the people trying to

305
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:20.200
that breaks correct. Correct, So we have no animosity towards

306
00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.039
each other. You didn't do something to me and I

307
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:27.279
didn't do something to you during that trial, right, absolutely? Okay. Now,

308
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.639
given that I'm going to ask you some questions today

309
00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:36.080
that may indicate to you that I have some antagonism

310
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.240
towards you, let me disabuse you of that. I'm here

311
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.159
doing a job representing my client, and you've been around

312
00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.440
the court system for decades. Correct, Yes, sir, So you

313
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:45.840
understand what we're doing here today.

314
00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:46.320
Yes.

315
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:51.080
Now, let me understand a couple of things I think,

316
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:55.960
And I've read your book one some editions of your book.

317
00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.720
There are several We got a bunch of emails in

318
00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.879
which you have drafts that you forwarded to your co author.

319
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.400
Correctly believe out of Jack Jrrellance, I believe any drafts

320
00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:11.440
you center or co author with the book is beyond

321
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.440
the step of the cent query here today of the

322
00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:14.920
route you may.

323
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:22.079
Perceive, you thank your honor. And in those drafts you

324
00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:29.279
say certain things about the trial, about the process, which

325
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.920
you later did not include in the final version. It's

326
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:34.319
called editing. Is that correct?

327
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:36.240
I would agree with that.

328
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:40.200
Okay, Now let's talk about this book for just a second.

329
00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:44.359
When did you first decide you're going to write a book?

330
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.440
I think a thought was there a very fleeting thought

331
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:50.640
before the trial.

332
00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:55.599
Did you take any steps before the trial or at

333
00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.960
the initiation of the trial to begin writing this book

334
00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:02.039
or working with somebody on this book? No, sir, when

335
00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:03.599
did you and your co author get together?

336
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:07.880
It was several weeks after the trial?

337
00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:11.559
Okay. Did you talk to anybody about the fact you

338
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.359
were going to write a book before the trial?

339
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:21.400
There were several anchors and several journalists that I did

340
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.799
speak with about the possibility of writing a book.

341
00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:36.680
Yeah, I'm so disorganized, I apologize. Did do you know

342
00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:40.319
did you seek assistance in this trial from other coirks

343
00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:40.759
of court?

344
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.720
Yes, sir, I did. And who were the Ronda McElveen

345
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:50.200
who was the Barnwell County Clerk of Court, and Renee

346
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.759
Elvis from the ri County Clerk of Court.

347
00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.039
And did they Were they there with you the entire

348
00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:57.599
sixth weeks?

349
00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:00.599
No?

350
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.319
I mean how long were they there? How often were

351
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:03.720
they there?

352
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:12.359
Rhonda Macklevin was there as often as she could be,

353
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:18.920
probably several times a week. Renee Elvis helped me during

354
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:20.240
the jury selection.

355
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:40.920
Thanks, and from miss macklebean.

356
00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.839
Did she begin working with you prior to jury selection?

357
00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.200
Can you repeat that question when.

358
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.720
We began Jerry selection. I think on January twenty third, correct?

359
00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:52.400
Correct?

360
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.160
Was she working with you or consulting with you prior

361
00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.240
to the twenty third No, sir, did you have any

362
00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:00.799
conversation with about the trial?

363
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.960
Not until she got to the trial on what I

364
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.599
can't remember the exact day she came.

365
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.720
Okay, Now, is she a friend of yours?

366
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.359
She was a friend? Yes? What, well, she is a friend?

367
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.880
Okay, yes, and she's done nothing to make you any

368
00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:26.160
less a friend. Now, did you tell her about the

369
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.000
time of the trial that you were going to write

370
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.759
a book that you had thought about and were going

371
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:31.519
to write a book?

372
00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:44.400
I can't remember exactly. I think we did have a

373
00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.319
conversation about a book, possibly in the future.

374
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:50.200
And did you tell her you're going to write a

375
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.279
book because you thought it would make a lot of money? Oh, no, sir,

376
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.400
You never said that, No, sir. And did you tell

377
00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:58.240
her that you were going to write a book to

378
00:20:58.279 --> 00:20:59.839
make a bunch of money so you could buy a

379
00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:01.799
quat and build a house.

380
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:03.079
On it, No, sir.

381
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.839
Okay, Now, did you ever tell her that you had

382
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.400
given a juror a ride home that you would accompanied

383
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:14.839
mister Bill what's his worst name, Phil polk Right? Did

384
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.759
did you and he took a juror home one night?

385
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:22.960
Did you tell her that? Did you take a juror

386
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:23.519
home one night?

387
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.880
I didn't take a juror home one night.

388
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.799
Did mister pok and you take a juror home one night?

389
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:29.319
No, sir.

390
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.839
We never gave a juror ride in a car with

391
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:32.920
mister Polker.

392
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.519
Without no, sir, okay.

393
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.519
Now, also, during the trial, your your daughter ended up

394
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:42.680
on the VINII is that right?

395
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:43.279
She did?

396
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.160
And she was coming up? And did you talk to

397
00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:50.079
me and and mister Waters about putting her on the

398
00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:51.279
jury if at all possible.

399
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:54.279
I'm not sure that we wanted her to be on

400
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:56.799
the jury, if at all possible. But I think the

401
00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.319
question was would she make a good juror? And I

402
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:02.000
said sure, she sure would.

403
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.759
No, I don't think we asked you. I think you

404
00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:05.759
told us she would make a great jury. Did you not?

405
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:07.160
I remember you asking?

406
00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:13.000
Okay, okay, I was considering putting your daughter on the jury.

407
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:13.359
Yes, sir?

408
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.440
And who does she work for?

409
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.519
She works for Compass South?

410
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:22.200
Did she work for the Sheriff's department at some point? No, sir, Okay,

411
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:24.839
does she work in law enforcement at.

412
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:25.720
All, No, sir.

413
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:33.440
Okay, Now, let me ask you this. How many jury

414
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:34.359
rooms were there?

415
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.559
We have two jury rooms in Colleton.

416
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.640
In this trial. How many jury rooms did you have?

417
00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:44.880
How many? Okay? So the entire jury wasn't together at

418
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:52.000
any one time? They were separated in the two rooms. Yes, okay.

419
00:22:52.160 --> 00:23:00.279
And did the when they're separated into a two jury

420
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:02.880
rooms like that? Are they next door to each other?

421
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.319
Are they down the hall from each other?

422
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.319
They are next door to each other?

423
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.680
Okay, So but if you close the door to one,

424
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.119
can they hear what's going on in the other one?

425
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.480
Some women probably have very good hearing in men too,

426
00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.119
but I would say probably not.

427
00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.720
Okay. Are there restrooms in both of the jury's rooms?

428
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:22.519
There are?

429
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.960
Okay, we're I mean, are there two restrooms or just one?

430
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:28.599
There's one restroom in each jury room?

431
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.519
Okay, we're either one of those restrooms designated men and

432
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.599
women or did everybody use the same one?

433
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:35.880
They were unisex?

434
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:42.680
They were unisex. Okay. Now, prior to your testimony here today,

435
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.599
have you met with the Attorney General's office in sweat

436
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:47.880
a half on how many occasions?

437
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.559
I want to say twice okay.

438
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.599
And remember when the first time was.

439
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:00.519
I think the first time was in September.

440
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.880
Okay, and the second time was last week, yes, sir,

441
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:06.720
and that was in Walterborough, Yes, right. And do y'all

442
00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.599
spend about four four and a half hours together?

443
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:14.440
I want to say, maybe two hours together, okay.

444
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:17.160
And in those two hours you went over your testimony

445
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:21.960
here today.

446
00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:21.720
They asked me questions.

447
00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:26.279
Did they ever correct your answers or suggest you answered differently?

448
00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:26.720
Oh?

449
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:28.880
No, no, no, So you you just went through what

450
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.559
you went through in twenty minutes here it took two

451
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:32.519
hours to go through.

452
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:37.279
When you were with them, there were times when I

453
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:39.039
would step out of the room and come back in,

454
00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:44.319
but I would say we were there for about two hours.

455
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:45.839
Now.

456
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.240
You have described in your book your role is Switzerland.

457
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:52.960
Is that correct?

458
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:54.039
Correct?

459
00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:57.079
Okay? And that is that you should not be in

460
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:01.160
any way opinionated about what's going on in the trial.

461
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:01.799
Is that correct?

462
00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:03.799
That's true?

463
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.119
Okay? Yet in your book you indicated a number of

464
00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:11.960
different points during the trial you had concluded he was guilty.

465
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:12.680
Is that correct?

466
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:18.519
I think you are right?

467
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:19.319
Piculous point.

468
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:21.079
I don't know if her conclusions in the book are

469
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:23.359
in any way relevant to what occurred during the trial

470
00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:26.799
and whether or not there was any communications with the jurors,

471
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:28.880
which is the sole issue that we're here for today,

472
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.279
is whether or not missus Hill had any extraneous influence

473
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:33.000
on the jurors.

474
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:35.319
And so I think this is going a little far

475
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:36.759
ill to object to the relative.

476
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.960
Let me give you example. You indicate writing back from

477
00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:46.559
Mozelle that you and three other people were in a

478
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:50.799
car and you all decided adamantly. I think, what's the

479
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:53.759
word you use? That he was guilty, that he had

480
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:55.759
killed his wife and son. Is that what you put

481
00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:56.279
in the book?

482
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:59.400
I can't remember if I put that in the book,

483
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:01.240
but if you say I did, then I will wigree

484
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:05.279
that we did have a conversation about what each of

485
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:06.119
us thought.

486
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:08.920
And the all four agreed that he was guilty.

487
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:10.920
Correct, And none of us were jurors.

488
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:16.079
No, no, trust me, I know that. But you had

489
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:21.000
an abiding conviction, at least by the time of the

490
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:24.119
Mozelle visit, that he was guilty. And the other people

491
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:25.960
in the car with you were bailiffs? Were they not?

492
00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:27.359
No?

493
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:28.319
Who were there?

494
00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:31.240
Some were not baylists, one was a court reporter, one

495
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:38.119
was our security officer head security, and another was a

496
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:39.319
deputy sheriff.

497
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:42.759
Okay, but the four of y'all wrote out there, and

498
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.200
based on what I mean, I can well, you want

499
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.319
me to read you how chilled you were and how

500
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:51.359
you felt this that poor Paul and and Maggie had

501
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:53.960
been executed by him on that scene, that visiting the

502
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:58.160
scene convinced you that he was a horrible, horrible murder.

503
00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.680
You want me to read that to you, or you

504
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:01.079
will seed that's what you wrote.

505
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.720
I will concede that's what I wrote. But if I may,

506
00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:06.079
I will I would say that that a lot of

507
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:10.599
that is poetic license in writing a book and in

508
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:11.759
making it sound like that.

509
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.000
Okay, so some of it's poetic license, and some of

510
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.000
it you just stole. You you you proloinded from that

511
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:19.960
BBC writer, right right.

512
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:22.640
You're not object to not only the relevance but the

513
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:28.640
sky cross out objects also under rule six oh eight.

514
00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:29.960
I don't believe that's appropriate.

515
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.240
Cross the daminag overaru.

516
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:34.440
You may continue, miss Hart.

517
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:35.720
Did you steal part of the book?

518
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:38.440
I did plagiar rice, Mister Hart.

519
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:39.720
That's stealing, is it?

520
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:40.119
It is?

521
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.400
And for that I'm very sorry and I have apologized, okay, and.

522
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:46.240
That makes it okay.

523
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.240
What I did, I did and I apologized for that.

524
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:55.440
And part of the book is you say literary license exaggeration.

525
00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:58.319
I wouldn't call it exaggeration.

526
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.720
Okay. Now, let me ask you, this is Switzerland, and

527
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:05.079
this is you're saying, this is happening while you're supposed

528
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:10.039
to be Switzerland. You've decided the defendant's guilty. And if

529
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:14.079
Ms Mackelman says that it's gonna make you more money

530
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.359
if you if he's found guilty, don't you think it's

531
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.799
reasonable to assume that you may have crossed the line

532
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:21.559
from time to time.

533
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:23.519
You're on our object to the form of the question

534
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.519
semi faxx not in evidence overru.

535
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:30.839
Can you repeat that question one more time?

536
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.960
It Let me just move on to something else. Let

537
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:39.440
me ask you you had interactions with some jurors, and

538
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:45.279
I believe in a conference in judges chambers you indicated

539
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:50.559
that you had seen a post on is Walterborough word

540
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:51.359
of mouth.

541
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:53.920
Your honor again out of ject.

542
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:57.119
I think he's delving now into the Facebook inquiry. We

543
00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.720
believe again that that's irrelevant to the inquiry for your honor.

544
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:06.160
I will allow a limited he's, as I understand it,

545
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:14.000
trying to impeach her testimony and explore her credibility. And

546
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:17.480
I think I've already told mister harprutin Liam that I

547
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:20.680
don't want a whole trial about the business of Facebook

548
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.640
and the egg your or, but I will allow limited

549
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:26.240
examination on this point. You may perceive Miss.

550
00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:31.359
Hartcrut am I oversimplifying that you. I mean, it's in

551
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:36.519
your book. You saw something on Walterborough word of mouth

552
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.440
which appeared to you to be from the ex husband

553
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:40.880
of one of your jurors. Is that correct?

554
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:41.079
Am?

555
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:43.039
I oversimplifying that I.

556
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.039
Remember reading one night something on Walterbirg word of Mouth,

557
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.839
and when I was in the courtroom on a Monday

558
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.720
morning listening to the judge and the attorney's talking about

559
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:56.839
it matter, it sounded like it was relevant to each other.

560
00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:58.400
Okay.

561
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:02.839
And you became a where somehow that this juror had

562
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.279
a restraining order out for her ex husband.

563
00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:08.160
She told me that herself, Okay.

564
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.839
And tell me how it came for her to tell

565
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.759
you about that? Where did she tell you?

566
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.400
She was very talkative. And when I was instructed by

567
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.599
Judge Newman to go and get her from out of

568
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:25.400
the jury room with a deputy following me. She was

569
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.640
talking to me all the way back to the judges

570
00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:31.319
chamber since she mentioned that there were restraining orders out

571
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:32.279
when they had divorced.

572
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:36.200
So how did the judge who brought it to the

573
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:39.559
judge's attention about this Walterborough word of mouth there?

574
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.640
I let the judge know, thinking that it could be.

575
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:49.359
Related, okay, And you let the judge know what that I.

576
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.599
Had read something on Walterborough word of mouth.

577
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:57.079
Okay, and that you knew it was tied to that juror.

578
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.119
I didn't know that it was.

579
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:01.680
Who do you think it was tied to?

580
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:05.880
From what y'all were talking about at the bench. I

581
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.920
felt like I needed to let him know just in

582
00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:11.920
case it was related. There was something about an ex

583
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:16.319
husband and an ex wife and somebody being on the jury.

584
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:19.240
You didn't tell the judge that you had found what

585
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:22.440
we call the apology post. You didn't tell the judge

586
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.240
that I didn't call it that. No, you don't remember

587
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:31.079
producing it, saying that producing it to the judge saying

588
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:34.000
this is a post in which the guy that posted

589
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.240
it on Friday night says the devil got in him

590
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:39.200
and drinking and he apologized for what he posted. You

591
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.119
didn't produce that.

592
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:42.359
My staff did one of my sounds, but.

593
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:44.680
You gave that to the judge and gave it to us.

594
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:46.559
Did you know? Yes, we did, as if it were

595
00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:53.039
from that jurors ex husband correct, correct, and you know

596
00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:53.559
it wasn't.

597
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:58.440
I don't know that, mister Hartpoollian. No so.

598
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.799
And you did not take that juror out and talk

599
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:04.880
to her before you took her to the judge.

600
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:07.920
I never talked to that juror about stuff like that?

601
00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:14.240
Okay? Did you ever talk to the four lady of

602
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:18.880
the jury separate from the jury? I did, okay? And

603
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:20.440
tell us where did that occur?

604
00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.799
When I would go into the jury room and I

605
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.519
would speak with the four lady, we would be in

606
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:39.359
like the hallway in the two jury rooms were side

607
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:43.079
by side, and the opening to the jury room went

608
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:45.799
out into the hallway, and we would be surrounded by

609
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:49.559
the jurors at all times. Mister Bill would be very

610
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:53.119
very nearby or another bailiff as well when we would speak.

611
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.319
And what did you speak to her about?

612
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:58.680
There were several instances.

613
00:32:58.759 --> 00:32:59.480
One was.

614
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:05.279
There was a juror who needed some feminine products. There

615
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:08.079
was another time when band aids were needed. There were

616
00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:11.119
times when talinol would.

617
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.240
Be needed other than items that were needed by the

618
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:16.119
jury's health object. Did you ever discuss that She ever

619
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:21.000
discussed with you if some issues jurors had emotionally or

620
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.519
some issues with dissension in the jury room.

621
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.039
She only told me that there was some loud jurors

622
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.880
and it made some of the other jewors a little upset.

623
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.920
But other than that, what did you tell her to do?

624
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.160
I told her if it got out of hand, to

625
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:41.519
write a note to the judge and that she could

626
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:43.400
sign the note and get mister Belle to give it

627
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.200
to the judge and the judge would handle that for her.

628
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:55.319
Okay, Now, you did publish a book after after this trial?

629
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:58.400
Is that correct? We did, and you went to New

630
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:01.200
York and took some of thes to the Today Show.

631
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:03.640
The Today Show did invite us.

632
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:06.839
Yes, Now, one of those jurors that went up there

633
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:10.239
with you the day of the verdict war for the

634
00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:14.079
first time I can remember, wore a suit to court.

635
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.039
You remember that, you honor again, I would object to

636
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:19.880
discussion of the jurors wearing a suit or a post

637
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:22.360
trial trip to the Today's Show.

638
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:24.639
I don't believe there's any connection to the inquiry.

639
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:27.119
That's that's focused for your honor, and that is whether

640
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:29.280
or not there was any extreme's influence during the course

641
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:29.719
of the trial.

642
00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:30.800
I'm going to connect with y'all.

643
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.760
I believe right over may continue, miss help Fruit.

644
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:40.800
Did you text, email or communicate on the morning before

645
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.960
final arguments were completed that to people that they this

646
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.679
was on a Thursday, that they probably if they're going

647
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.440
to see the trial, should come on that Thursday because

648
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:52.119
it'd be over by them the next day it would

649
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:54.400
be the jury would not be out very long. Did

650
00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:58.280
you ever communicate that email, text, or verbally?

651
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:02.119
I do remember saying that, yes.

652
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:05.599
And why did you think the jury would not be

653
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:09.480
out very long? Had you communicated with yours I.

654
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:12.519
Had not communicated with Jews about anything related to this

655
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:18.159
trial at all. I've been a court reporter for at

656
00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:20.239
least fourteen years. I was a clerk of court for

657
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:24.679
three and you just get to where you kind of

658
00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:29.079
see things happen as they progress, and it's a guess,

659
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:31.880
it's a gut feeling, and that's all that I meant

660
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:32.159
by that.

661
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:35.000
Well, why are you telling this young man who wanted

662
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:38.679
passes for the next day in an email, you know

663
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:40.639
it won't be happening tomorrow. That was your or did

664
00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:43.280
you say? You didn't say. I don't think. You just

665
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.039
said you'd better come today if you're coming. Remember doing that?

666
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:53.800
I don't remember that. But you know, if if he

667
00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:55.559
wanted to come, I knew that the trial would be

668
00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:59.239
ending shortly as far as testimony, So if he wanted

669
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:00.920
to come, he needed to come.

670
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:02.800
Why wouldn't the jury have been out a week on

671
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.519
a six week trial. They could have, but you apparently

672
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.000
were telling the press and others that would be a

673
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:12.679
quick verdict, were you not.

674
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.480
That was just a gut feeling that I had, Okay,

675
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:17.639
and that was my opinion.

676
00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.480
You're painting. You were right, Jerry was out three hours

677
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:22.519
on a six week trial.

678
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:24.559
Correct, that's true.

679
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:32.559
How much money did you make off that book?

680
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:36.239
There was not a whole lot of money made off

681
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:41.559
of the book, after paying different things and paying for

682
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.400
some expenses that went along with that. But I want

683
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:46.199
to say roughly around one hundred thousand.

684
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:51.159
Okay, that's not a lot of money.

685
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:52.599
No, especially when you publish your own book.

686
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:55.000
But that was one hundred thousand you.

687
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.679
Made with my co author.

688
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:02.440
Okay, in what period of time? Six months?

689
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:07.760
I would say six months. Yes, it was the book

690
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.719
published August first, Okay.

691
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:17.280
The trial is over. That's six months after the trial's over.

692
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:23.480
You've published a book, correct, Correct, And then I believe

693
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:26.239
you've recently stopped selling the book because of the plagiarism

694
00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:29.280
you've admitted to correct, Correct, and so there's no more money.

695
00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:30.480
Correct.

696
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:37.199
Now. You also indicate in the book that the Murdaws

697
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:43.440
had a reputation of criminality. I think is kindly what

698
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:43.880
you put.

699
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:48.519
Did you not, well, mister Hartpooley and my grandfather and

700
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.000
old Mambuster were very close.

701
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:53.559
What were they criminals?

702
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.199
I wouldn't know, You wouldn't.

703
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.599
Know, But you believed and you published that the Murda

704
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.119
family had run that part of this and they'd been

705
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:03.000
participated in criminal conduct. Correct.

706
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:05.119
You want to getting out with Jack.

707
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:10.440
It's a general testimony about the alleged criminality of this family.

708
00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:12.760
I'm not sure how that has any bearing on the

709
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:14.159
focused inquiry Fourth Court.

710
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:18.920
He's asking about what she said in the book. I'm

711
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:19.719
gonna allow it.

712
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.679
Yes, did you say that in the book that they

713
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:23.840
they were criminals?

714
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:29.480
In the book, that was more of the literary ease

715
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.840
that we that we take, I think to make a

716
00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:35.360
story a little more interesting for the reader by.

717
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:40.960
Calling people criminals. I guess what I'm saying is this,

718
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:46.840
were they criminals? Objecting that particular question?

719
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:48.320
Oh root?

720
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:49.760
Were they criminals?

721
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:50.719
I wouldn't know that.

722
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:53.760
Okay, So you either made it up or you're lying

723
00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:59.400
about it. About the reputation of people that can't defend

724
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.920
themselves they're dead, you're gonna call them criminals? You did

725
00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:04.519
that in the books? She could sell a book?

726
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:06.880
No, I didn't do that to sell a book.

727
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.880
What'd you do it for? Made it more readable? You said?

728
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.599
Which sells the book ease? What?

729
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:13.559
Literary?

730
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:14.440
Literary?

731
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:14.639
What?

732
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:16.280
Uh?

733
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:19.480
The literary ease that that you can take with when

734
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:20.119
writing a book.

735
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:22.039
Literary ease you can take with writing a book. You

736
00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:25.039
can make stuff up, you can lie, you can lie

737
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:25.679
about people.

738
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.400
Not with that, you know, it's I think the public

739
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:34.360
perception was one that it was very interesting during this time.

740
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:38.079
So you're feeding you're feeding the monster out there that

741
00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:40.719
wants to believe bad things about the murders, and you'll

742
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:42.119
make stuff up to do it. Let me give you

743
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:44.599
another example. During I read your book and I found

744
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:47.079
there's somewhat here in mursus my co counsel did not.

745
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:50.960
In describing mister myself and mister Griffin in the book,

746
00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:55.960
you say that I neutered him. We've both been very

747
00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:59.000
interested in what you meant by that. What do you

748
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:00.679
mean by I mean new ring Jim.

749
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:04.559
Griffin, mister Hartpulian? It was a book?

750
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.840
Did you make it up? I know it was a book.

751
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:11.800
The Bible is a book. I mean just because it's

752
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:13.559
a book doesn't mean you can lie in it.

753
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:14.840
It's just a word that was.

754
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:21.199
Strange. Don't argue with the witness. But the witness, Miss Hill,

755
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:26.239
you instructed to answer his questions. You made proceed, mister

756
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:26.760
hart Putin.

757
00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:28.639
So let me get this straight. The book and I'll

758
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.199
see if I can cut to the chase on this.

759
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.559
I could read you chapter after chapter, verse after verse,

760
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:39.119
which is not true, Okay, not true based on my

761
00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:41.679
experience of being in a courtroom, and not true based

762
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:44.559
on knowing some of the people you describe. You say,

763
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:45.679
you say.

764
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:49.960
That is mister Putin object the counselor is just testifying

765
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:52.039
right now as to his observations about the book.

766
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:55.760
Putinin, Please you have conceded there are things in the

767
00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:00.559
book that you don't know to be true. Correct, correct, Okay,

768
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:03.960
you would concede then that you have lied in the book.

769
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:06.679
It's only because I wasn't there at the time. I

770
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:11.880
can't interview my dead grandfather, I can't interview mister Buster.

771
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:15.840
There's just things that we can't interview them on. We

772
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:18.119
can go about what was written in a newspaper and

773
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:19.480
get facts from that.

774
00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:25.239
And take the inference that one of the murdads was

775
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:27.239
a pedophile. You could have printed that and they're not

776
00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:30.159
here to contradict it. You could have printed anything you

777
00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:32.760
wanted and made it up to sell books. That's what

778
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:37.079
this whole scheme was about, selling books. As you told

779
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:44.039
Ronda mcelvene, if him being found guilty would sell more books. True.

780
00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:46.079
Out of Jackson's argument of nature of the question of

781
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:47.920
the compound question in a semi facts on.

782
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:51.679
The compound question, if what you're asking is what boy

783
00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:54.840
she told, Uh, there's Michael vine gone and asked that,

784
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.239
but don't preceed it with uh yes testimony.

785
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:00.360
Thank the court's indulgence for just a moment.

786
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:37.559
Write your book.

787
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:45.119
Your your ex husband had posted something we now know

788
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.559
probably wasn't her ex husband? Did she have any other

789
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:54.360
ex husbands that you found out about? I have no idea, Well,

790
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:57.559
you wrote, we learned later the ex spouses hadn't seen

791
00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:59.679
each other in fourteen years and she had three restraining

792
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:03.719
orders against him? Did she have three restraining orders against him?

793
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:05.400
I don't know, that's what she said.

794
00:43:05.960 --> 00:43:06.280
Okay.

795
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:15.079
Hm.

796
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:33.000
Did you tell jurors at the end of the trial

797
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:35.239
after President's Day break? Present's day break would have been

798
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:42.519
a Monday, correct, correct? But before mister Murdaud testified, did

799
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:44.159
you tell the jury not to be fooled by the

800
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:46.159
evidence presented by mister Murdad's.

801
00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:49.400
Lawyers, Mister HARTPOOLI and I never talked to the jurors

802
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:50.440
about any of the evidence.

803
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:52.679
Yes, it would be yes or no. Then you can explain.

804
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:53.840
Did you say that?

805
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:54.760
No?

806
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:59.920
Okay? Did you all? Did you ever instruct the r

807
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:03.480
to watch him closely immediately before he testified, looking at

808
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.599
his actions, looking at his movements. Did you ever tell

809
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:07.400
Jerry to do that?

810
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:08.199
No?

811
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:11.599
Did you ever tell the jury to pay attention to

812
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:19.199
mister Murdo's testimony.

813
00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:20.199
To pay attention not specifically to his testimony? I did

814
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:24.639
tell the jury to pay attention to what just generally

815
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:29.679
in the hallway when I was speaking, not to him, no.

816
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:48.400
Just to any witness. Right, okay. Did you did you

817
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.000
ever warn the jurors the defense is about to do

818
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.920
their side. This is right before, right at the beginning

819
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.679
of the defense case. They're going to say things that

820
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:00.280
will try to confuse you. Don't let them confuse you

821
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:03.119
or convince you or throw you off. Did you ever

822
00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:08.800
tell the jury that, No, sir? Okay. Did you ever

823
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:10.599
tell the jury if you get emotional, we want to

824
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:12.960
see your face because that is what they want to see.

825
00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:14.639
Do you ever tell them that?

826
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:15.480
No, sir.

827
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:21.960
Did you ever tell the jury that mister Murder was

828
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.079
about to testify?

829
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:25.760
I didn't tell the jurors that.

830
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.639
Now. Did you tell the jury that if they didn't

831
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:39.400
reach a verdict by ten o'clock they were going to

832
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:40.119
have to spend the night?

833
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:41.400
No, sir, I did not.

834
00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:43.599
Did you ever tell them they were going to have

835
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:44.280
to spend the night?

836
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:44.960
Yes, sir.

837
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:47.440
Did you ever tell them that they couldn't smoke?

838
00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:48.480
No, sir.

839
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:58.840
Okay, you got any other books in the world, No, sir,

840
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:00.440
I mean, edn't this Lincoln good book?

841
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:22.199
Okay?

842
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:49.000
Yes, sir, there were a few matters came up on

843
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:50.639
cross obviously that I'd objected to.

844
00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:54.800
Are you more wave your find you You may reserve

845
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.440
your rights to object to the entire line of testimony,

846
00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:02.039
but you may if across examination, so to the assertion

847
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:04.440
of your objection, you about have to test And thank

848
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:04.639
you here.

849
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:09.639
I one of the things you were asked about is

850
00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:14.639
finding this Facebook post, and you brought that to the

851
00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:18.679
court's attention after a different issue had already arisen related

852
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:20.679
to adjuror is that correct?

853
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:21.519
Correct?

854
00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:22.239
All right?

855
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:25.679
And are you technically capable of manufacturing a Facebook post?

856
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:28.360
Is that anything that you have any capability to do?

857
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:29.880
I'm not all right?

858
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:33.760
And did you ask your staff member to go see

859
00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:35.079
if she could find this post?

860
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:35.679
I did?

861
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:38.760
Did you tell her just generally what you recalled reviewing?

862
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:39.320
Yes?

863
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.320
And did she did you get her any further instruction

864
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:43.039
other than that?

865
00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:43.519
No?

866
00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:46.119
Were you sitting behind her as she was doing this

867
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:48.960
particular search or anything like that, or did she eventually

868
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:49.920
report back to you?

869
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:54.679
She is very very techy. And then she reported back

870
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:55.000
to me.

871
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:57.280
All right, So you weren't there when she was searching

872
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:57.880
anything like that?

873
00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:58.400
Yeah?

874
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:00.119
And she was like, I couldn't find that post, but

875
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:03.280
I did find this and handed you the Facebook paces. Correct,

876
00:48:03.800 --> 00:48:06.559
and you provided that to Judge Newman, and ultimately to

877
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:08.039
it was provided to the parties.

878
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:09.360
Is that correct correct?

879
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:17.239
You were asked about conversations that you had with the

880
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:21.400
four Lady. Did those involve logistical issues and things like that?

881
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:27.719
The conjury, the conversations with the four Lady was to everything.

882
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:32.280
There was nothing in regarding the defendant and this trial.

883
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:34.239
All right, So they were logistical issues, not anything to

884
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:35.519
do with the substance of the trial.

885
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:39.239
Is absolutely yes.

886
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.880
You were asked about whether or not you had texted

887
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:50.320
some people this won't be long. Was that at all

888
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.840
in any way based on any conversation you had with

889
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:56.360
adjuror as to their internal thinking or anything like that,

890
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:00.679
or was that just your assessment being an experien person

891
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:03.760
in the court. Absolutely not, It was based on just

892
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:05.719
your assessments.

893
00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:06.079
Just my assessments. Yes.

894
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:10.800
Did you ever communicate with the jurorsm how long they

895
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:12.519
would be or did any juror ever tell you how

896
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:13.639
long they thought they would be?

897
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:16.199
I never talked to any jurors about anything like that.

898
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.960
You were asked about your book, and I don't want

899
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.039
to get into too much detail about that. But you

900
00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:25.960
were asked about some of the assertions that you made

901
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:29.280
in the book, and you were asked if these were lies.

902
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.039
Were they lies or were they ultimately things that were

903
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:36.840
based on inferences from newspapers and community stories?

904
00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:41.280
All right, you are leading by this is your witness,

905
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.199
mister von Waters. So please I ask a.

906
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:45.920
Direct question, thank you?

907
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:49.239
Was your some of the statements that you were asked

908
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:50.239
about in your book?

909
00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:51.480
Were they lies?

910
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:53.960
Or were they based on your inferences from just general

911
00:49:53.960 --> 00:49:57.079
community knowledge and things that you had researched in them?

912
00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:01.079
All right, thank you.

913
00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:03.679
He's right about that, mister Wafers. Just ask him the

914
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:04.519
direct questions.

915
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:06.639
Did you lie in your bug?

916
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:11.000
No? I did not, thank you.

917
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:16.599
You were asked about when you told the jury to

918
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:19.320
pay attention when you asked that question. Did you also

919
00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:22.159
mention anything about we got coffee for you or things

920
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:22.519
like that.

921
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:25.440
I knew that mister Bill would take care of that,

922
00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:29.719
and the jeworsk new too. Coffee. We had done some

923
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:33.519
dunkin donut runs, We had provided coffee, different other things

924
00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:37.079
to help stay awake in the cold courtroom that we

925
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:41.599
were found ourselves in. And so I knew anything that

926
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:44.039
they needed, mister Bill would see that they got because

927
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:44.800
that's what he did.

928
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:49.320
At any time, did you have any conversation with any

929
00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:51.840
juror in which you tried to influence their decision?

930
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:55.519
I did not have a conversation with any juror about

931
00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:57.119
anything related to this case.

932
00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:02.079
I want you to turn your attention to a hearing

933
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:09.559
that Judge Newman had uh about the alternate who was

934
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:18.360
uh dismissed uh sometimes called the egg jurro. Do you

935
00:51:18.440 --> 00:51:23.880
recall that hearing, yes, ma'am. In the hearing, Judge Newman

936
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:29.400
expressed his uh unhappiness with you for questioning that juror

937
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:31.480
before he questioned her.

938
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:33.760
Do you recall that I do remember seeing that.

939
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.239
Well, then let's go back and talk about that juror

940
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.079
uh you that you're on uh examination in this court room.

941
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:45.320
You s said that she's talked about a lot of

942
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:48.159
things to you, but you didn't uh ask her any questions.

943
00:51:48.199 --> 00:51:50.000
But that's not completely accurate, is it?

944
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:52.280
Yes, ma'am? That is true.

945
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:58.199
Well, you asked, you asked her direct questions uh uh,

946
00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:02.239
and that came out in the hearing that Judge Newman

947
00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:06.760
had you asked her questions before She was even examined

948
00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:07.440
by the judge.

949
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.360
Did you not, your honor, I did not ask for

950
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:11.280
any questions.

951
00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:15.840
The juror was examined by the judge in a hearing.

952
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:18.559
Do you recall that hearing? Since the second hearing.

953
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:21.039
On this map, I do you recall that hearing?

954
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:22.599
Yes, and.

955
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:28.320
Asked you about The court asked this juror about postings

956
00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:41.000
on Facebook? Did he not correct? And the juror said,

957
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:45.800
she gave miss Becky my full access to my Facebook.

958
00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:50.079
I put pastor posts on it. I've done that for

959
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:53.199
the past three years. Do you recall her testifying in

960
00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:53.719
that regard?

961
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:55.360
I do remember reading that.

962
00:52:55.480 --> 00:52:58.559
And the judge said, has anyone posted anything on Facebook

963
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:02.679
about you? And the juror answered, I was not aware

964
00:53:02.679 --> 00:53:04.920
of it until miss Becky told me today.

965
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:07.880
Do you recall that I do you remember her saying that?

966
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:11.440
And do you recall the judge saying what did she

967
00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:16.440
tell me? And the juror said, she asked me if

968
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.280
I had an ex husband? And I said, yeah, did

969
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:20.000
you ask her that?

970
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:24.519
I remember her saying this, your honor, but I did

971
00:53:24.559 --> 00:53:26.719
not ask her any of these questions.

972
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:29.960
And she further says, she asked me if I had

973
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:33.119
talked to him about the case or being on jury duty,

974
00:53:33.159 --> 00:53:37.079
and I said no, I had questioned her about why

975
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:39.800
she was asking me that I haven't seen my husband

976
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:42.599
since twenty fourteenth. Do you recall her testifying to that.

977
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:44.320
I do remember that, yes.

978
00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:49.400
And with that, having jarge your memory, do you asking

979
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:51.599
her about her husband and his post?

980
00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:55.599
I don't remember saying anything about that.

981
00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:59.239
Well, what was the post that you read in the

982
00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:07.360
Walter her a word of mouth? What what was the

983
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:10.239
nature you read that? Did you not?

984
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:10.840
I did?

985
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:11.360
What did it?

986
00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:12.119
Sut?

987
00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:16.960
Uh? My memory is a little fuzzy without but it

988
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:20.079
was about a ex husband who found out that his

989
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:23.719
ex wife was on a jury and he didn't think

990
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:26.840
that she would be a good juror. And it just

991
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:29.840
sounded very similar to what I had heard the judge

992
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:31.519
and the attorneys speaking.

993
00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:34.400
So you then went to that juror on question her

994
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:34.920
about that?

995
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:35.440
Did you not?

996
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:38.639
I did not? Your honor, Well, she.

997
00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:40.840
Says in this testimony that she didn't know about the

998
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:43.079
Facebook and to him, Miss Becky told me was she

999
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:49.519
what was that incorrect? I'm not some kind of conversation

1000
00:54:49.639 --> 00:54:51.719
went between the two of her for her to know

1001
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:52.679
about that post.

1002
00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:56.840
Correct, that's true, and I'm thinking that it could have

1003
00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:59.960
been someone it wasn't me. I just know that it's

1004
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.960
it's not me that she talked to about that.

1005
00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:13.000
Well, when the judge, the judge was questioned the juror

1006
00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:23.360
about this, she also said that she had three restraining

1007
00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:33.760
orders against him, and she also said, I was very

1008
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:36.440
upset after she told me that I have, Like I said,

1009
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:39.639
I have three restraining orders against him and I wouldn't

1010
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:41.800
have anything to do with him if I didn't have

1011
00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:43.880
a child with him. But I haven't seen him since

1012
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:48.400
twenty fourteen. She didn't, y'all, didn't discuss that the restraining.

1013
00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:52.480
Orders on the way from the jury from the jury

1014
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:56.280
room to the back chambers where the judge was. She

1015
00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:57.760
was very.

1016
00:55:59.039 --> 00:55:59.480
Scared.

1017
00:55:59.880 --> 00:56:04.800
She was talking about the three restraining orders that she

1018
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:06.800
had at on her husband at the time that they

1019
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:09.920
were divorcing, and she was scared that he would be

1020
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:11.840
trying to get back in contact with her again.

1021
00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:14.320
Well, so you know that she tell you that.

1022
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:16.159
She was talking about that on the way to the

1023
00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:21.880
jury room to the chambers with the judge.

1024
00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:27.159
And in the court in this hearing. Now that I'm

1025
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:32.480
looking at that the court is conducted. She said, they're

1026
00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:36.480
asking about this Facebook post, and she said Miss Becky

1027
00:56:36.599 --> 00:56:39.679
said she had went to look for the post again

1028
00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:44.239
and that it had been deleted. I don't know who

1029
00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:47.159
she talked to or anything else, but she said, apparently,

1030
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:49.599
do you recall her saying that.

1031
00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:51.239
I do remember her saying that.

1032
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:56.320
And the court then said, what did she tell you

1033
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:59.480
about that? And the juror said, it was after you

1034
00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:02.159
let us on the last break on a very upset.

1035
00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:05.840
This is what you're talking about. And she came down

1036
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:08.519
and talked to me and said that apparently. I don't

1037
00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:13.480
know who talked to him, but he said he was

1038
00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:16.079
drunk and he removed the posts. Do you recall that?

1039
00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.360
Uh, Well, she didn't tell me that, and I didn't

1040
00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:21.320
talk with her about that.

1041
00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:27.039
Wait, you saw that post, the so called apology post.

1042
00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:28.119
Did you not write?

1043
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:30.000
I did, and you assumed that.

1044
00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:33.519
Was a post from her husband. Did you not write

1045
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:36.880
and then you talked to the juror about that? Did

1046
00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:37.159
you not?

1047
00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:40.280
I did not talk with the juror about that.

1048
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:43.440
Well, who did you talk to about it? Did you

1049
00:57:43.480 --> 00:57:44.920
bring it to the judge's at teacher?

1050
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:47.840
No, we didn't get a chance to talk to the

1051
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:48.639
judge about that.

1052
00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:55.920
The court asked, this, juror, has the clerk discussed anything

1053
00:57:55.960 --> 00:57:59.920
about the case with anyone on the jury. The juror said, nah,

1054
00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:02.360
that I'm aware of. The judge said, okay, she was

1055
00:58:02.440 --> 00:58:06.840
just discussing with juror. She pulled me aside when we

1056
00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:09.440
went downstairs after the last break. I want to say

1057
00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:12.079
it was after lunch and we came back, and that's

1058
00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:15.239
when she first told me about it, about this what

1059
00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:19.960
we now know was a not a post from her husband.

1060
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:22.239
But you assumed it was a post at the time,

1061
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:27.400
and y'all have a conversation about it, correct, don't just not?

1062
00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:28.719
I asked answer the question.

1063
00:58:28.840 --> 00:58:32.239
Yes, yes, ma'am. I believe that it was one of

1064
00:58:32.239 --> 00:58:35.960
my staff that she talked to, but it was not

1065
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:37.000
me that she talked to.

1066
00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:41.199
But the juror says, and I want to say, it

1067
00:58:41.239 --> 00:58:43.199
was after lunch. We came back, and that's when she

1068
00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:45.679
first told me about it. She's talking about you.

1069
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:46.400
Correct.

1070
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:51.159
Then we went back into the court and I never

1071
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:57.679
even got to sit on the jury, judge says. The

1072
00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:03.760
judge then stops the questioning, and it's the room, mister Griffin,

1073
00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:06.800
your honor. I think that satisfies that she hadn't talked

1074
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:09.559
to anybody, had an expressed an opinion, hadn't made up

1075
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:12.079
an opinion. She's got an ex husband, and she has

1076
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:16.280
three restraining orders against me, The court said, mister Waters,

1077
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:20.199
just obviously we're all invested in this. My main concern

1078
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.320
I certainly would love to but not love to, but

1079
00:59:23.559 --> 00:59:26.840
want to hear you know what one of these individuals said.

1080
00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:29.039
But you know she answered the questions as she did

1081
00:59:29.800 --> 00:59:38.559
talking about the jew Or. They then have a power

1082
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:43.159
for you about this juror and whether this was really

1083
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:46.760
her husband that put this post in that you talked

1084
00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:48.880
to her about and apparently talked with the court about

1085
00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:49.960
at some point. Am I right?

1086
00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:51.400
That's right?

1087
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:12.840
And then at the end the judge said that he

1088
01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:17.639
was uh not too happy with your having talked to

1089
01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:20.000
the juror before you talk to him. Do you recall

1090
01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:25.199
the judge saying bad and did you pop right up

1091
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:27.599
there and uh say what you're saying now that you

1092
01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:28.480
never talked to her.

1093
01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:32.000
We never talked about it after that. I wasn't in

1094
01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:33.320
the room when he said that.

1095
01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:05.199
The judge brought up another thing right after sentencing that

1096
01:01:05.239 --> 01:01:10.599
I want to explore with you briefly, right. Uh. One

1097
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:13.440
of the big responsibilities of the clerk of court is

1098
01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:16.679
to take control of the exhibits that are presented in court,

1099
01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:17.519
Isn't that correct?

1100
01:01:17.719 --> 01:01:19.480
Yes, s'am.

1101
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:23.480
And there were sealed exhibits presented in this uh uh

1102
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:28.559
case uh that were photographs uh of uh the two

1103
01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:35.280
decendents uh at Moselle uh when the UH law enforcement

1104
01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:40.320
authorities first investigated the murders you recalled out, Yes, Sam,

1105
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:44.480
And those photographs were sealed by the judge.

1106
01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:46.199
Were they not correct?

1107
01:01:47.800 --> 01:01:52.760
And when the uh uh testimony about them was completed,

1108
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:55.360
they were under your control as the clerk of court.

1109
01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:55.920
Were they not?

1110
01:01:56.159 --> 01:01:56.800
That's correct?

1111
01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:06.599
How was it that those photographs came into public view?

1112
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:11.960
Are you talking about after the I'm.

1113
01:02:11.800 --> 01:02:16.599
Talking about the fact he alluded to it on sentencing

1114
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:20.960
and said that he was frustrated about it and was

1115
01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:25.199
going to try to look into it. Those photographs that

1116
01:02:25.280 --> 01:02:30.079
were sealed court exhibits under your control found their way

1117
01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:32.079
into the public media, did they not?

1118
01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:37.320
I believe they did, And I think what happened it

1119
01:02:37.639 --> 01:02:42.519
was someone from the gallery took a picture from a

1120
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:46.199
screen that had some of the pictures on it. If

1121
01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:47.480
I'm remember incorrectly.

1122
01:02:52.280 --> 01:02:55.280
Did you ever allow anyone from the press to view

1123
01:02:55.320 --> 01:02:56.840
these sealed exhibits?

1124
01:02:57.480 --> 01:02:58.920
No, ma'am.

1125
01:02:59.079 --> 01:03:04.599
Did you allow net flicks to ever examine the exhibits.

1126
01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:05.440
To try domain?

1127
01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:12.199
How did you handle exhibits? Because you did have the

1128
01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:16.199
press have great access to the exhibits, and you say

1129
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:18.840
several times in your book that you had to stay

1130
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:21.679
after to be sure that you interacted with the press

1131
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:25.360
about these exhibits. That's true, is it not?

1132
01:03:25.719 --> 01:03:26.559
That is true?

1133
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:30.039
If we had mister J. Bender, and then we had

1134
01:03:30.039 --> 01:03:35.800
the pull photographers and someone from maybe the State of

1135
01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:39.400
Believe or the posting courier along with the court reporters,

1136
01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:42.920
someone from court administration, and then someone from the clerk's

1137
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:46.760
office every night that would go over the exhibits to

1138
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:52.000
make sure everything was correct and within our domain.

1139
01:03:55.840 --> 01:04:02.840
Were any press people ever allowed to view the exhibits,

1140
01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:06.840
even the sealed exhibits that you had on file.

1141
01:04:06.760 --> 01:04:10.079
No, ma'am, No, ma'am.

1142
01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:15.639
What was the methodology for allowing them to examine the exhibits?

1143
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:17.840
How'd you handled that?

1144
01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:22.280
I wasn't there a whole lot with when we did

1145
01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:26.760
this every night. But it's my understanding that the people

1146
01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:30.599
that were involved with the exhibits and especially the court reporters,

1147
01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:34.480
and there was a certain time frame that they were

1148
01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:39.639
allowed to take their pictures and everything was All of

1149
01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:43.639
the pictures were looked at by the court reporters that

1150
01:04:43.679 --> 01:04:47.199
were there and the lady from court administration along with

1151
01:04:47.599 --> 01:04:50.880
someone from my office and mister J. Fender to make

1152
01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:52.679
sure that everything was done correctly.

1153
01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:56.880
What I'm asking is how you handled having them The

1154
01:04:57.039 --> 01:05:01.159
press would view these exhibits, if I.

1155
01:05:01.159 --> 01:05:07.920
Remember correctly, the press. We had certain designated photographers, as

1156
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:11.199
in someone I think from the state or the posting career,

1157
01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:15.360
and they were responsible for putting it out on a

1158
01:05:15.400 --> 01:05:17.760
stream for the rest of the media too.

1159
01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:21.239
Would they do that by photographing the exhibits as they

1160
01:05:21.239 --> 01:05:24.079
were in your possession after court was over that day?

1161
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:25.199
That is correct?

1162
01:05:29.960 --> 01:05:33.400
And how did you handle the sealed exhibits in terms

1163
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:38.480
of their availability When these press people of their photographing.

1164
01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:39.920
Exhibits, they stayed sealed.

1165
01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:48.400
And so you think that you're aware of the fact

1166
01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:54.000
that some of these on the scene photographs of the

1167
01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:58.199
two decendents found their way into the public press. You're

1168
01:05:58.199 --> 01:05:58.719
aware of that.

1169
01:05:58.679 --> 01:05:59.400
Are you nasty?

1170
01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:04.000
I am yes, And you contend that they photographed them

1171
01:06:04.599 --> 01:06:05.920
in the courtroom.

1172
01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:16.480
That is what I heard, all right.

1173
01:06:23.159 --> 01:06:27.440
Finally, you have indicated about your book that some things

1174
01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:30.480
that you put in there were you called it literary license,

1175
01:06:30.639 --> 01:06:32.199
not literally true. Correct?

1176
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:33.280
Correct?

1177
01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:42.320
Did you ever buy any kind of email communication, or

1178
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:51.039
in any way, shape or form indicate or a state

1179
01:06:51.559 --> 01:06:55.000
that you wanted a guilty verdict because it would increase

1180
01:06:55.039 --> 01:06:57.599
the sales of book of the book. Did you ever

1181
01:06:57.639 --> 01:07:01.880
say that in an email or verbally or in any

1182
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:02.639
other way.

1183
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:05.760
No, ma'am, I did not. It didn't matter to me

1184
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:09.400
if it was guilty, not guilty, or a mistrial.

1185
01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:16.000
Well, in your book you suggest that the guilty verdict

1186
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:18.119
was what you wanted, and you were fearful that the

1187
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:21.360
that a guilty verdict would not be rendered. You say

1188
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:25.119
that a lot about your feeling about warning a guilty verdict,

1189
01:07:25.199 --> 01:07:25.559
do you not?

1190
01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:28.599
I do agree that that is set in the book,

1191
01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:31.719
and and part of that is because I think it

1192
01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:32.800
was a guilty verdict.

1193
01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:36.280
Well, this is why that you were describing a time

1194
01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:41.000
way before the verdict was rendered. Uh, when you wrote

1195
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:43.599
about those things in the book. Isn't that correct?

1196
01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:44.599
It is?

1197
01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:45.079
Yes?

1198
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:47.760
And you even have something where you so your eyes

1199
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:51.519
met with Jewel Roars and others at Moselle, and y'all

1200
01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:55.599
have an understanding unspoken h that he was guilty. You

1201
01:07:55.639 --> 01:07:57.000
said that in the book, did you not.

1202
01:07:57.760 --> 01:07:59.960
I did say that in the book, and I would

1203
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:06.119
consider that part of the literary the word that we

1204
01:08:06.280 --> 01:08:09.920
just said. But that that was there was nothing spoken

1205
01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:13.840
with a juror at all at Moselle or anywhere else,

1206
01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:19.159
at the courthouse or anywhere. I think that was That's

1207
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:22.600
that's part of that poetic license that that we write

1208
01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:28.399
to make something more apparent. But at no time did

1209
01:08:28.399 --> 01:08:31.960
I read or try to read someone else's eyes. And

1210
01:08:33.560 --> 01:08:36.600
that was just one of those gut feelings that that

1211
01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:37.600
I wrote in the book.

1212
01:08:49.000 --> 01:09:26.920
Yeah, you wrote at in the book, speaking of a

1213
01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:34.359
time before the d jury verdict was rendered. I was

1214
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:38.720
conflicted about knowing the Murdoch family and about having so

1215
01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:41.279
many people watching and listening to me as I read

1216
01:09:41.319 --> 01:09:44.760
the verdict. I was mostly concerned about Alex being found

1217
01:09:44.840 --> 01:09:46.319
innocent when I knew in my.

1218
01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:49.680
Heart he was guilty. I had this fair that the

1219
01:09:49.680 --> 01:09:52.039
goodwill of the Murdochs had built up in the community

1220
01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:56.000
would influence the jury. Uh you wrote that, did you

1221
01:09:56.079 --> 01:10:02.039
not yes, fam, so you had those feelings well before

1222
01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:04.560
the verdict was announced. In this case, you had some

1223
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:07.520
definite opinions and feelings about what the verdict should be,

1224
01:10:07.560 --> 01:10:07.960
did you not.

1225
01:10:08.439 --> 01:10:12.000
I did have a certain way that I felt, but wasn't.

1226
01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:14.680
Any That's not any poetic license. What was said there,

1227
01:10:14.680 --> 01:10:15.960
that's how you felt correct.

1228
01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:16.520
Correct.

1229
01:10:23.680 --> 01:10:27.199
Those are my questions. Anything further from from the state,

1230
01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:28.439
mister Waters.

1231
01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:34.159
First, mm.

1232
01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:41.039
Hm.

1233
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:53.800
Very briefly on UH, you were asked a number of

1234
01:10:53.880 --> 01:10:57.159
questions about UH the interactions during the UH the in

1235
01:10:57.279 --> 01:11:00.520
camera proceedings with the juror he was excluded. Were you

1236
01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:03.039
in the room during the entirety of those interactions or

1237
01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:06.119
just were brought in here or there as they has occurred.

1238
01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:09.239
No, I was only brought in for my asking of

1239
01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:10.920
my questions from Judge Newman.

1240
01:11:12.439 --> 01:11:16.199
And you were asked a little bit about sealed exhibits

1241
01:11:16.239 --> 01:11:19.880
and about Judge Newman's comments at sentencing at the end

1242
01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:25.840
of trial, And just to clarify, those were not pictures

1243
01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:28.680
of any sealed exhibits. It was a picture that someone

1244
01:11:28.720 --> 01:11:31.479
had taken in the gallery that had actually been disclosed,

1245
01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:33.720
and that's what Judge Neuman was talking about to your understanding.

1246
01:11:33.960 --> 01:11:35.159
That was my understanding.

1247
01:11:35.640 --> 01:11:39.520
Yes, and then after the trial there was even a

1248
01:11:39.520 --> 01:11:42.239
post trial hearing or some discussion about the fact that

1249
01:11:42.680 --> 01:11:45.920
some bodycam videos had not been sealed, and Judge Neuman

1250
01:11:45.960 --> 01:11:47.199
fixed that problem.

1251
01:11:46.840 --> 01:11:48.119
After the trial. Is that correct?

1252
01:11:48.239 --> 01:11:48.640
Correct?

1253
01:11:54.199 --> 01:11:57.880
Nothing further on, just a couple of plays.

1254
01:11:58.920 --> 01:12:02.279
Let me understand this erectly. You would agree that you

1255
01:12:02.399 --> 01:12:06.279
did release all of the exhibits in this case, sealed

1256
01:12:06.319 --> 01:12:09.359
and unsealed to the Texas film crew. Is that correct?

1257
01:12:09.720 --> 01:12:15.560
No, sir, No, sir, I did not release the sealed exhibits.

1258
01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:16.640
What about to.

1259
01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:22.640
Netflix? Didn't you indicate to the judge they'd been mistakenly

1260
01:12:22.720 --> 01:12:24.359
released and you were getting them back.

1261
01:12:24.840 --> 01:12:28.880
As an error before when we realized everything. Yes, those

1262
01:12:28.920 --> 01:12:31.680
two did go and Netflix had not even they said

1263
01:12:31.720 --> 01:12:33.359
they had not even looked at them.

1264
01:12:33.720 --> 01:12:34.560
Did you get them back?

1265
01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:35.920
We did get them back. Yes.

1266
01:12:36.039 --> 01:12:38.800
And what about a Japanese film crew. Did they get

1267
01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:40.199
exhibits the sealed exhibits?

1268
01:12:40.279 --> 01:12:42.600
They did not get any sealed exhibits.

1269
01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:44.039
What about NBC Universal?

1270
01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:46.039
No sealed exhibits.

1271
01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:50.800
But you do can see that Netflix did get sealed exhibits.

1272
01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:54.840
They did it as an error. It was air well.

1273
01:12:55.079 --> 01:12:57.479
I would say the court recorder didn't market on the

1274
01:12:57.960 --> 01:12:58.640
on the listing.

1275
01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:03.119
Well, why were you in such Why were you so

1276
01:13:04.079 --> 01:13:09.079
accommodating to these national documentary folks? I mean is this

1277
01:13:09.159 --> 01:13:12.359
good for the book? I mean the more documentaries out

1278
01:13:12.399 --> 01:13:14.800
there about the murder thing, the better your book sales are.

1279
01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:19.159
I mean, there was money in this for you. Right again,

1280
01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:21.479
it's about the money, right.

1281
01:13:22.479 --> 01:13:23.520
What's your question now?

1282
01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:27.680
Isn't it financially beneficial to you at the time to

1283
01:13:27.760 --> 01:13:31.239
get more of these photographs out, more publicity, more Netflix,

1284
01:13:31.560 --> 01:13:35.840
more hbos, more Japanese? Doesn't that sell books for you?

1285
01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:37.479
Didn't you see a financial advantage?

1286
01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:38.520
Not at all?

1287
01:13:38.760 --> 01:13:41.319
Okay, thank you? No for the questions.

1288
01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:57.319
As here you massed step down. Let's say hang on

1289
01:13:57.399 --> 01:14:02.920
from moment, mister Lewis, she'ssst I just want to make

1290
01:14:04.319 --> 01:14:07.199
I want her to step down. Yes, she's still under supheena.

1291
01:14:08.079 --> 01:14:10.079
I haven't heard whatever what's going to be said and

1292
01:14:10.119 --> 01:14:13.399
this to Harpool and still has some things he wants

1293
01:14:13.399 --> 01:14:16.039
to raise about other witnesses and so forth. So what

1294
01:14:16.119 --> 01:14:18.840
I would prefer is that she remain with Hugh mister

1295
01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:21.920
Lewis until we see what else is going to happen.

1296
01:14:22.600 --> 01:14:23.399
You may step down.

1297
01:14:28.279 --> 01:14:35.600
I mean, however, many times during that did you get

1298
01:14:36.359 --> 01:14:40.600
the same feeling that I got. Becky Hill, in my opinion,

1299
01:14:40.760 --> 01:14:45.159
is lying through her teeth. And honestly, I think Dick

1300
01:14:45.239 --> 01:14:50.119
Harpoulian blew away Creton Waters in this one. And it

1301
01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:52.960
pains me to say that because I'm such a creating

1302
01:14:53.000 --> 01:15:00.199
Waters fan, but I think Harpoolium won that exchange. And

1303
01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:06.079
eventually it gets down to closing arguments, and both the

1304
01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:09.199
prosecution and the defense they lay out their case. You

1305
01:15:09.319 --> 01:15:13.840
got to hear this. Here's the closing arguments in this

1306
01:15:14.319 --> 01:15:15.560
motion for a new trial.

1307
01:15:17.199 --> 01:15:22.119
All right, now we proceed closing. You prepaid very good,

1308
01:15:22.319 --> 01:15:23.359
mister Waters.

1309
01:15:24.760 --> 01:15:28.880
Thank you your honor. Just to go back and reiterate.

1310
01:15:30.560 --> 01:15:34.880
As to the standard, and ultimately we've of course argued

1311
01:15:34.920 --> 01:15:40.479
that the defendant has the burden. We've also discussed that

1312
01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:44.079
the standard for your honor of courses. First of all,

1313
01:15:44.239 --> 01:15:48.600
was there any misconduct that occurred, and then regardless of that,

1314
01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:52.479
whether or not there was any effect on the verdict,

1315
01:15:52.560 --> 01:15:55.960
and the standard has been expressed in multiple cases, is

1316
01:15:56.800 --> 01:15:59.640
whether the verdict is solely the product of honest deliberation,

1317
01:16:00.159 --> 01:16:05.680
the product of outside the influence, and that inquiry fundamentally

1318
01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:10.039
is the court recognized from the very beginning, focuses on

1319
01:16:10.359 --> 01:16:15.840
the jurors themselves, because it doesn't necessarily matter what was

1320
01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:20.640
said as much or what was intended, or what was inadvertant.

1321
01:16:19.960 --> 01:16:21.479
Even assuming that those existed.

1322
01:16:21.800 --> 01:16:25.560
What matters is is what the jurors heard, what they perceived,

1323
01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:27.960
and whether or not it had any sort of effect

1324
01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:31.560
on the verdict. And Your Honor went through that inquiry

1325
01:16:32.119 --> 01:16:33.159
with these jurors.

1326
01:16:33.520 --> 01:16:35.520
Eleven of those jurors.

1327
01:16:35.239 --> 01:16:40.199
Were clear and unequivocal that there was no effect on

1328
01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:43.039
their verdict, and also clear and unequivocal that nothing was

1329
01:16:43.119 --> 01:16:47.920
said that could any way be inferred as any sort.

1330
01:16:48.039 --> 01:16:50.560
Of attempt to influence them.

1331
01:16:51.439 --> 01:16:53.560
And I think that's very important in Your Honor, because

1332
01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:57.920
you know, there can be sometimes behind the doors, as

1333
01:16:57.920 --> 01:17:00.199
we've talked about, I think some of the cases RECOGNI

1334
01:17:00.439 --> 01:17:03.600
this that some conversations can go on and things like

1335
01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:08.319
that can happen. But ultimately, and while I think there

1336
01:17:08.319 --> 01:17:11.760
were some cases cited in some of the various South

1337
01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:14.960
Carolina decisions, you know that it's not that's unrealistic and

1338
01:17:15.039 --> 01:17:18.760
not surprising to think that sometimes things like that that

1339
01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:22.920
can happen an untoward comment or something was said, but

1340
01:17:23.039 --> 01:17:26.399
that that was an Aldrich, your honor, in the nineteen

1341
01:17:26.479 --> 01:17:30.880
ninety nine Supreme Court case. But the mere fact that

1342
01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:35.279
something like that may be stated, that could be stated

1343
01:17:35.279 --> 01:17:37.880
in a neutral reason, is not enough to undermine the verity,

1344
01:17:37.960 --> 01:17:41.119
because the inquiry ultimately boils down to what was it.

1345
01:17:41.399 --> 01:17:43.199
That those jurors heard?

1346
01:17:43.319 --> 01:17:45.760
And in the end, though, did they listen to the

1347
01:17:45.800 --> 01:17:47.399
instructions from the trial judge?

1348
01:17:47.720 --> 01:17:50.039
Did they come to a fair and honest verdict?

1349
01:17:50.199 --> 01:17:54.399
And Your Honor, the evidence here is overwhelming, I would say,

1350
01:17:54.439 --> 01:17:57.039
from the people that matter, and that's those jurors, and

1351
01:17:57.079 --> 01:17:59.199
that is there was no effect on the jersey. And

1352
01:17:59.239 --> 01:18:01.800
you saw every single one of them, every single one

1353
01:18:01.880 --> 01:18:06.279
of them very clearly and strongly looked you in the eye.

1354
01:18:06.760 --> 01:18:08.920
All eleven at least, and I'll get to the twelfth

1355
01:18:09.520 --> 01:18:11.600
one in a second, but looked you in the eye

1356
01:18:11.600 --> 01:18:13.960
and said, No, that didn't happen. No, I didn't hear

1357
01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:16.520
anything like that. No, there was no effect on our verdict. No,

1358
01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:20.319
this was our verdict and it was based solely, which

1359
01:18:20.359 --> 01:18:23.359
was your honor's question, solely on the evidence and the

1360
01:18:23.479 --> 01:18:28.479
law and the testimony at trial. And I think that

1361
01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:32.159
that carries the day. We have one juror, and I

1362
01:18:32.239 --> 01:18:33.680
want to make sure because I'm about to say the

1363
01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:34.840
number and I don't want to do that.

1364
01:18:35.720 --> 01:18:39.439
I want to go back to Jersey.

1365
01:18:40.520 --> 01:18:44.560
And let's look at Jersey and what she said, because

1366
01:18:44.640 --> 01:18:49.479
Jersey also said that yes, I said this was my verdict.

1367
01:18:49.560 --> 01:18:51.720
I was polled and said this was my verdict.

1368
01:18:52.359 --> 01:18:55.439
Jersey also said that my verdict was solely based on

1369
01:18:55.479 --> 01:18:57.960
the evidence in the law of the testimony trial answer

1370
01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:02.720
question number two, Yes, absolutely, yes, but then goes on

1371
01:19:03.199 --> 01:19:05.720
after that to say she heard some communications from the

1372
01:19:05.720 --> 01:19:10.520
clerk and then says, well, it had an effect on

1373
01:19:10.560 --> 01:19:12.920
my verdict, even after she had already answered question number

1374
01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:15.079
two when she said her verdict was based solely on

1375
01:19:15.199 --> 01:19:17.600
the evidence in the law and the testimony at trial

1376
01:19:18.279 --> 01:19:22.720
and beyond that, then, your honor, I think that it's

1377
01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:27.680
very telling that the affidavit that was submitted from this

1378
01:19:27.720 --> 01:19:30.880
particular jurk and we've been pointing this out from the

1379
01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:34.560
beginning because it's very crucial and very telling because despite

1380
01:19:34.600 --> 01:19:37.319
the things that she alleges that happened, even though the

1381
01:19:37.359 --> 01:19:40.680
other jurors say it didn't, Despite the things that she

1382
01:19:40.760 --> 01:19:45.680
alleges that happened. She says that she voted guilty because

1383
01:19:45.720 --> 01:19:49.039
she felt pressure from other jurors, not that her verdict

1384
01:19:49.079 --> 01:19:52.039
was in any way affected from some supposed external influence,

1385
01:19:52.359 --> 01:19:54.600
and the affidavit that was filed with the defense motion

1386
01:19:54.720 --> 01:19:57.520
from day one, that is what she says, that she

1387
01:19:57.560 --> 01:19:58.960
felt pressure from other jurors.

1388
01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:00.640
In Your Honor, we've cited cases over.

1389
01:20:00.560 --> 01:20:03.359
And over again that the internal mechanics of the jury room,

1390
01:20:03.399 --> 01:20:06.079
the fact that one juror feels pressured by others, as

1391
01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:09.199
long as there's not violence or things that go beyond

1392
01:20:09.239 --> 01:20:10.720
the pale, that is not.

1393
01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:12.680
A basis for undermining a verdict.

1394
01:20:12.760 --> 01:20:16.039
That is part of the deliberative process, and it's expected

1395
01:20:16.079 --> 01:20:19.079
and it occurs. But I think it's very telling that

1396
01:20:19.159 --> 01:20:22.920
we have those conflicting answers and Your Honor without waiving

1397
01:20:23.520 --> 01:20:27.840
any objection to the latest affidavit that we were just

1398
01:20:27.880 --> 01:20:31.239
discussing from this juror. I think that's very telling because

1399
01:20:31.279 --> 01:20:34.199
now we have answer number three as it relates to

1400
01:20:34.479 --> 01:20:38.640
this particular juror, and of course it is clearly manufactured

1401
01:20:38.800 --> 01:20:44.199
and rehabilitated to recognized after the fact. She, of course

1402
01:20:44.399 --> 01:20:51.279
is this jurors represented by Joe McCullough. And ultimately we've

1403
01:20:51.279 --> 01:20:54.279
gotten now a third version of events from this very juror.

1404
01:20:54.359 --> 01:20:57.039
So we have this juror who's given answers all over

1405
01:20:57.079 --> 01:21:00.720
the place that are inconsistent with a level another jurors

1406
01:21:00.760 --> 01:21:04.159
who were very strong and unequivocal that yes.

1407
01:21:04.119 --> 01:21:05.039
This was our verdict.

1408
01:21:05.079 --> 01:21:07.079
It was based solely on the evidence of the law

1409
01:21:07.119 --> 01:21:11.359
and the testimony that there were no communications from Becky

1410
01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:15.319
Hill that influenced that verdict. And I think ultimately, when

1411
01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:18.319
you look at the case law, in the end, it's

1412
01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:21.680
up to your honor to make that ultimate determination. And

1413
01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:25.520
looking at all that law together, we cited another number

1414
01:21:25.520 --> 01:21:28.720
of decisions, including as we discussed the questions to be had,

1415
01:21:28.760 --> 01:21:31.600
I sent an email where we set out some questions

1416
01:21:31.920 --> 01:21:32.520
that it's.

1417
01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:33.680
Not uncommon.

1418
01:21:35.079 --> 01:21:39.760
Perhaps for a juror to have a second thought, but

1419
01:21:39.800 --> 01:21:43.319
the law is very clear that it does not recognize that,

1420
01:21:44.079 --> 01:21:47.720
because what that would do would be to consistently and

1421
01:21:47.840 --> 01:21:51.600
constantly put every verdict that occurs in any court room

1422
01:21:51.680 --> 01:21:52.560
and this state or in the.

1423
01:21:52.640 --> 01:21:53.920
Nation at risk.

1424
01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:57.680
Jurors don't have to vote in perpetuity. They vote on

1425
01:21:57.680 --> 01:22:00.479
one day and one day only. And here, your Honor,

1426
01:22:00.479 --> 01:22:06.319
the evidence is overwhelming that those jurors verdict was the

1427
01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:09.680
product of honest deliberation, and the only bit of contrary

1428
01:22:09.760 --> 01:22:12.720
evidence to that effect is from a juror who frankly

1429
01:22:13.279 --> 01:22:16.319
not only said that it was purely the result of

1430
01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:19.079
honest deliberation, but then has answers all over the place.

1431
01:22:19.119 --> 01:22:21.720
In Your Honor, I would say that the other eleven

1432
01:22:21.880 --> 01:22:25.199
jurors are credible, They were strong, they were clear with

1433
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:29.399
your honor, and I think that ultimately that carries the day. Now,

1434
01:22:30.399 --> 01:22:34.920
we've had testimony from other people since the jurors were here.

1435
01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:38.720
We've had testimony obviously from Miss Hill, we've had testimony

1436
01:22:38.800 --> 01:22:43.359
from Miss Randa, and we've had testimony from this alternate juror.

1437
01:22:44.520 --> 01:22:53.520
But again, none of that testimony at all goes to

1438
01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:57.000
what is the ultimate test for your honor, and that

1439
01:22:57.159 --> 01:22:59.119
is whether or not this verdict was the product of

1440
01:22:59.119 --> 01:22:59.920
honest deliberation.

1441
01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:02.079
And on that again, the.

1442
01:23:02.039 --> 01:23:07.920
Evidence is overwhelming and strong and clear that it was

1443
01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:09.880
the product of honest deliberation.

1444
01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:18.079
It's very interesting.

1445
01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:23.159
As we look at some of the testimony from the

1446
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:30.079
other witnesses, and obviously we have Miss Becky.

1447
01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:31.840
And as Your Honor has pointed out, we're not.

1448
01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:36.720
Here to go through some of the issues that have

1449
01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:39.359
been alleged or are percolating out there. That's not the

1450
01:23:39.359 --> 01:23:44.880
point of this proceeding here today. But Miss Becky is

1451
01:23:45.199 --> 01:23:49.000
a court reporter and then became a clerk, and was

1452
01:23:49.239 --> 01:23:52.880
clear to you that she never made any comment in

1453
01:23:52.880 --> 01:23:56.479
an attempt to sway the jury one way or the other.

1454
01:24:00.399 --> 01:24:01.800
We have Miss Rondo.

1455
01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:08.239
And Miss Ronda came in and testified, But I would

1456
01:24:08.239 --> 01:24:10.840
submit to your honor that this is kind of a

1457
01:24:10.880 --> 01:24:14.479
red hearing because what Miss Runa described, what conversations that

1458
01:24:14.680 --> 01:24:18.640
she herself admitted, are just the kind of conversations that

1459
01:24:18.720 --> 01:24:21.319
go on, and that's the reality of it. The conversations

1460
01:24:21.319 --> 01:24:24.000
that go on among the trial team when we're not

1461
01:24:24.039 --> 01:24:26.399
in an open court where we're discussing things, the kind

1462
01:24:26.399 --> 01:24:29.920
of conversations that go on among court staff behind the doors.

1463
01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:33.399
Those types of conversations go on. But that is not mean,

1464
01:24:33.479 --> 01:24:36.439
nor does that necessarily indicate that somebody's not going to

1465
01:24:36.520 --> 01:24:40.479
come out here and do their job fairly and understand

1466
01:24:40.520 --> 01:24:45.079
the distinction between influencing a jury and not doing that.

1467
01:24:45.720 --> 01:24:47.720
And one thing that I think is very important is

1468
01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:50.239
Miss Rondo was at that trial more than Miss Becky was,

1469
01:24:52.079 --> 01:24:57.399
and she was very clear, and I probably was as

1470
01:24:57.439 --> 01:25:00.159
repetitive as anyone here today and asking that question and

1471
01:25:00.199 --> 01:25:02.399
over and over again, because I didn't want that point

1472
01:25:02.439 --> 01:25:05.880
to be lost that Miss Ronda said. I was there

1473
01:25:05.960 --> 01:25:09.399
more than anyone else, and I never saw anything or

1474
01:25:09.399 --> 01:25:14.399
observed anything, or had anything happen that would cause me,

1475
01:25:14.600 --> 01:25:17.319
independently to go to Judge Newman, because that's what I

1476
01:25:17.319 --> 01:25:19.119
would have done, to go to Judge Newman and say

1477
01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:23.039
something's not right about this, this needs to be fixed.

1478
01:25:22.800 --> 01:25:24.359
Something's going on that's improper.

1479
01:25:25.199 --> 01:25:27.960
And I think that that is an extremely crucial fact

1480
01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:31.600
because Miss Ronda admitted and said, of course as she

1481
01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:35.319
would that if something had happened that the judge needed

1482
01:25:35.319 --> 01:25:37.079
to know about, she would have been the first one

1483
01:25:37.119 --> 01:25:40.359
to do it. And it never happened, and she was

1484
01:25:40.399 --> 01:25:50.840
here more than Miss Becky was. It never happened. When

1485
01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:54.960
we look at the balance of those facts, when we

1486
01:25:55.039 --> 01:25:59.880
have the Clerk of court come in and testify.

1487
01:25:59.119 --> 01:26:01.720
That, you know, maybe I did this, or maybe I

1488
01:26:01.760 --> 01:26:02.039
did that.

1489
01:26:02.199 --> 01:26:06.920
Maybe I plagiarized the book a portion of a maybe

1490
01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:10.760
I did this, Maybe I wrote in things in there

1491
01:26:10.760 --> 01:26:14.720
that are based on community knowledge or newspapers or poetic

1492
01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:16.000
license or whatever you want.

1493
01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:16.159
To call it.

1494
01:26:16.640 --> 01:26:18.960
I don't care about the book, and I would submit

1495
01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:21.159
that your Honor doesn't need to care about the book either,

1496
01:26:21.199 --> 01:26:23.960
because the book and what happened with the book afterwards

1497
01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:27.319
is not what is relevant to the inquiry. But she

1498
01:26:27.520 --> 01:26:31.039
was clear that she did not have any attempt to

1499
01:26:31.159 --> 01:26:34.920
influence that journey. She was clear about that, and Miss

1500
01:26:35.039 --> 01:26:38.359
Ronda was clear that she was not aware of anything

1501
01:26:38.439 --> 01:26:43.039
like that either. And what does that do but corroborate

1502
01:26:43.520 --> 01:26:50.079
the most important witnesses here. The defense, I think, in

1503
01:26:50.119 --> 01:26:55.359
one of their letters, tried to say that Miss Becky

1504
01:26:55.479 --> 01:26:57.439
was the state star witness. And that's not what this

1505
01:26:57.560 --> 01:27:00.199
inquiry is about. It's not what this inquiry is about

1506
01:27:00.199 --> 01:27:03.439
at all, because, as I've said from day one, if

1507
01:27:03.479 --> 01:27:06.800
there were not facts to be litigated, if we had

1508
01:27:06.840 --> 01:27:10.800
not done an investigation and had those eleven jurors say

1509
01:27:11.239 --> 01:27:13.960
that didn't happen, there was no effect on our verdict.

1510
01:27:14.720 --> 01:27:17.359
This was the product of honest deliberation. We would be

1511
01:27:17.399 --> 01:27:20.239
the first ones here standing here to say that. But

1512
01:27:20.319 --> 01:27:25.560
what we do know there are is that what Miss

1513
01:27:25.560 --> 01:27:31.560
Becky said and ultimately what Miss Ronda said corroborates who

1514
01:27:31.640 --> 01:27:33.560
are the true if you want to say it, I'm

1515
01:27:33.600 --> 01:27:35.239
not and I'm going to use this term because the

1516
01:27:35.239 --> 01:27:38.359
defense accused us of miss Becky being our star witness.

1517
01:27:38.439 --> 01:27:41.359
There are no star witnesses here. This isn't about stars.

1518
01:27:42.399 --> 01:27:43.720
But what Miss Becky.

1519
01:27:43.399 --> 01:27:45.680
And is ron to do is corroborate who are the

1520
01:27:45.720 --> 01:27:51.479
most important witnesses, and that are those jurors. And you

1521
01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:54.680
have eleven of them, strong as a rock, saying this

1522
01:27:54.840 --> 01:27:59.560
verdict was not influenced. Nobody tried to influence, and regardless,

1523
01:27:59.600 --> 01:28:03.640
it was the product of our honest deliberation. And you

1524
01:28:03.760 --> 01:28:06.800
have one juror who said that too, but then has

1525
01:28:06.880 --> 01:28:08.479
answers that are all over the place. And if you

1526
01:28:08.560 --> 01:28:11.840
go back to her original statement, what she says is

1527
01:28:11.880 --> 01:28:14.880
not external influence. Anyway, it's not sufficient under the law.

1528
01:28:15.439 --> 01:28:18.399
So I think that the proof here is overwhelming. I

1529
01:28:18.399 --> 01:28:21.800
think the proof here collaborates what those jurors say. I

1530
01:28:21.840 --> 01:28:24.439
think the only juror that we have to contend with

1531
01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:31.640
or testimony is compromised. And I'm not saying that that

1532
01:28:31.720 --> 01:28:33.680
person is in here and maliciously lying.

1533
01:28:33.880 --> 01:28:37.119
I just think that this process is a lot. But

1534
01:28:37.279 --> 01:28:38.880
it's clear that if.

1535
01:28:38.720 --> 01:28:43.359
There was any attempt to influence this jury. Those jurors

1536
01:28:43.359 --> 01:28:46.560
who sat in that box, every single one of them,

1537
01:28:46.640 --> 01:28:48.640
you saw them, and we saw them for six weeks.

1538
01:28:48.680 --> 01:28:52.960
They are conscientious. They take their obligations seriously. They were

1539
01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:57.399
not here to reward friends or punish enemies. They were

1540
01:28:57.439 --> 01:29:01.760
here to do their job appropriately and fairly. You saw

1541
01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:04.520
that in their eyes. You saw that in their mannerisms,

1542
01:29:04.520 --> 01:29:07.680
you saw that in their demeanor, and they were strong

1543
01:29:07.800 --> 01:29:12.239
and clear that this verdict was fair, Your honor, we

1544
01:29:12.279 --> 01:29:16.199
would submit the demotion for new trolby tonight.

1545
01:29:19.439 --> 01:29:22.000
I want to first start with State b. Green, because

1546
01:29:22.039 --> 01:29:25.399
I understand that that's the guidance. That's what we're following

1547
01:29:25.439 --> 01:29:29.199
here and reading, you know, excerpts from State v.

1548
01:29:29.359 --> 01:29:29.600
Green.

1549
01:29:31.399 --> 01:29:36.760
First, it is absolutely clear in State v. Green that

1550
01:29:36.840 --> 01:29:42.239
we find ourselves and the issue is whether there's a

1551
01:29:42.319 --> 01:29:45.279
defendant's right to a fair and impartial jury under the

1552
01:29:45.319 --> 01:29:48.560
Sixth Amendment has been violated. Reading from the opinion that

1553
01:29:48.640 --> 01:29:52.399
says in the Sixth Amendments contexts, the Supreme Court of

1554
01:29:52.439 --> 01:29:57.239
the United States has held that quote, any private communication, contact,

1555
01:29:57.399 --> 01:30:01.479
or tampering whether jury during a trial about the matter

1556
01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:07.520
pending before the jury is deemed presumptively prejudicial. Now, Green

1557
01:30:07.600 --> 01:30:10.439
goes on to say that we are not going to

1558
01:30:10.560 --> 01:30:16.199
categorically apply the presumption whenever there is a contact with

1559
01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:23.960
the jury. But the question is is it prejudicial? Not

1560
01:30:24.560 --> 01:30:27.199
whether the verdict would have been different, It is is

1561
01:30:27.239 --> 01:30:28.159
it prejudicial?

1562
01:30:28.720 --> 01:30:30.640
And I'll keep reading.

1563
01:30:31.479 --> 01:30:34.279
The court says, we're not persuaded that the remor presumption

1564
01:30:34.359 --> 01:30:37.960
of prejudice. We're talking about prejudice, not is the verdict different,

1565
01:30:38.239 --> 01:30:42.720
it was their prejudice. Was this tainted process? Was it

1566
01:30:42.800 --> 01:30:45.840
prejudice to the defendant? Was the process prejudicial to the

1567
01:30:45.880 --> 01:30:49.680
defendant because of extraneous communications, Not whether the verdict would

1568
01:30:49.680 --> 01:30:52.159
have been different, but whether it's prejudice involved in the

1569
01:30:52.199 --> 01:30:56.000
process of the trial. The court goes on to say,

1570
01:30:56.359 --> 01:31:00.479
our unwillingness to categorically apply the remor presumption of prejudice

1571
01:31:00.520 --> 01:31:03.960
stems from our view that not every inappropriate comment by

1572
01:31:04.239 --> 01:31:07.720
bailiff to a juror rises to the level of constitutional error.

1573
01:31:08.560 --> 01:31:10.840
Goes on to say, the attempted bribery of the jury,

1574
01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:14.159
and remember, conduct which goes to the heart of the

1575
01:31:14.159 --> 01:31:16.680
marriage of the case, is a far cry from the

1576
01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:20.439
circumstances presented in this case. The bailiff's actions here, though improper,

1577
01:31:20.800 --> 01:31:22.800
did not touch the merits, but only dealt with the

1578
01:31:22.800 --> 01:31:26.600
procedural question of how the judge might handle a jury

1579
01:31:26.680 --> 01:31:32.239
impasse that apparently never materialize. The Court says, while we

1580
01:31:32.319 --> 01:31:36.760
decline to adopt the presumption of prejudice in every instance

1581
01:31:36.840 --> 01:31:40.439
of inappropriate bailiff communication to a jury, the occasion of

1582
01:31:40.479 --> 01:31:43.600
this case presents an opportunity for our clerks of court

1583
01:31:43.880 --> 01:31:48.000
and circuit judges to ensure that all bailiffs are properly trained. Now,

1584
01:31:48.399 --> 01:31:51.600
the only thing that Green did was reject the presumption

1585
01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:55.159
of prejudice in every case, And your honor, I'm not

1586
01:31:55.199 --> 01:31:57.000
gonna I just want to preserve for the record that

1587
01:31:57.039 --> 01:31:59.640
our position is that the comments that you heard in

1588
01:31:59.680 --> 01:32:01.359
this case go to the meriage, go.

1589
01:32:01.319 --> 01:32:02.520
To the heart of the defense.

1590
01:32:03.159 --> 01:32:05.880
And if you find that those comments were made, and

1591
01:32:06.279 --> 01:32:10.159
I'm going to establish for the record we clearly made,

1592
01:32:10.680 --> 01:32:13.560
we clearly have proven that that, then we do get

1593
01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:16.199
in the rumor of presumption that we do get the

1594
01:32:16.279 --> 01:32:19.279
rumor presumption if we have proven these comments were made.

1595
01:32:19.319 --> 01:32:21.560
But I'm going to argue that.

1596
01:32:21.479 --> 01:32:26.239
We prove prejudice also in this case. So to start with,

1597
01:32:26.880 --> 01:32:32.079
let's go to the evidence that was presented since Friday,

1598
01:32:32.560 --> 01:32:36.520
and and you know, we have we have twelve deliberating

1599
01:32:36.600 --> 01:32:40.720
jurors in this case. What you've heard, three of the

1600
01:32:40.760 --> 01:32:44.640
twelve have testified under oath that they heard miss Hill

1601
01:32:44.760 --> 01:32:49.239
make comments about the case. Whether it's you know, howgh

1602
01:32:49.239 --> 01:32:53.680
they categorize it as merits or not. But your acts

1603
01:32:53.720 --> 01:32:58.319
on Friday, durr X on Friday acknowledge that miss Hill

1604
01:32:58.439 --> 01:33:02.000
made a comment about Alex was going to testify, that

1605
01:33:02.039 --> 01:33:04.239
it was going to be epic or some words like that,

1606
01:33:04.880 --> 01:33:08.119
and that defendants don't normally testify. That's what juror X

1607
01:33:08.159 --> 01:33:14.520
said on Friday Today, So that's one who says miss

1608
01:33:14.600 --> 01:33:19.239
Hill made a comment about Alex testimony, how it's going

1609
01:33:19.279 --> 01:33:22.640
to be a big deal and defendants don't normally testify.

1610
01:33:25.199 --> 01:33:32.600
Jersey today says that first she says miss Hill said

1611
01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:35.520
to watch his actions, to watch him closely, and then

1612
01:33:35.560 --> 01:33:37.640
she said there are other things that he said, I

1613
01:33:37.840 --> 01:33:40.760
don't remember, and then we were allowed to show her.

1614
01:33:41.199 --> 01:33:44.119
Your honor asked her questions about her AFFI David, and

1615
01:33:44.239 --> 01:33:49.560
she says, confirm what was in her Affidavid, that Rebecca.

1616
01:33:49.199 --> 01:33:51.600
Hill told the jury not to be fooled.

1617
01:33:51.239 --> 01:33:54.880
By evidence presented by mister Murdoch's attorneys, which I understood

1618
01:33:54.920 --> 01:33:57.439
to mean that mister Murdock would be would lie when

1619
01:33:57.439 --> 01:34:01.560
he testified. She also acknowledged this is a truthful statement,

1620
01:34:01.960 --> 01:34:04.720
that she instructed the jury to quote watch him closely

1621
01:34:04.760 --> 01:34:08.600
close quote immediately before he testified, including look at his

1622
01:34:08.680 --> 01:34:11.680
actions and look at his movements, which I understand to

1623
01:34:11.720 --> 01:34:16.800
mean he was guilty. And she also said and confirmed

1624
01:34:16.800 --> 01:34:20.960
that that Miss Hills said when they began deliberations that

1625
01:34:21.159 --> 01:34:24.159
this quote, this shouldn't take us long close quote, and

1626
01:34:24.159 --> 01:34:27.279
that if we deliberated past eleven PM, that we'd be

1627
01:34:27.319 --> 01:34:32.239
taken to a hotel. Those statements go to the marriage.

1628
01:34:32.920 --> 01:34:35.159
Those statements will go to the heart of the defense.

1629
01:34:35.560 --> 01:34:39.119
Those statements go to what mister Murdoch his credibility. So

1630
01:34:39.159 --> 01:34:42.680
there's two deliberating jurors down. The third deliberating juror who

1631
01:34:42.720 --> 01:34:50.279
testified today is Durrope, and he says, you were asked, Durrope,

1632
01:34:50.600 --> 01:34:55.920
did Miss Hill make any comments about the case, and

1633
01:34:56.000 --> 01:35:00.520
he says, yes, she said the day that Alex was

1634
01:35:00.560 --> 01:35:04.319
taking the stand, she came Durope as a he. But

1635
01:35:04.680 --> 01:35:07.279
he is saying that she miss Hill said the day

1636
01:35:07.399 --> 01:35:10.840
Alex was taking the stand that she Miss Hill made

1637
01:35:10.840 --> 01:35:13.000
the comment about watch his body language.

1638
01:35:13.159 --> 01:35:14.199
That's all I recall.

1639
01:35:15.720 --> 01:35:20.119
So three of the twelve deliberating jurors heard Miss Hill

1640
01:35:20.560 --> 01:35:22.640
speak about Alec Murdoch's testimony.

1641
01:35:23.520 --> 01:35:24.359
Three of the twelve.

1642
01:35:25.159 --> 01:35:28.039
And then and then we get the alternate juror came

1643
01:35:28.079 --> 01:35:33.239
in and basically corroborated what those three of the twelve heard.

1644
01:35:33.920 --> 01:35:36.399
And she had additional things that she had heard, but

1645
01:35:36.600 --> 01:35:40.880
she corroborated what those three of the twelve heard. And

1646
01:35:40.920 --> 01:35:45.399
then you've got Miss Hill who gets on the stand and.

1647
01:35:45.399 --> 01:35:46.239
Denies it all.

1648
01:35:48.840 --> 01:35:52.520
And Your Honor, I couldn't agree with you more that

1649
01:35:52.760 --> 01:35:57.000
you're able to judge the credibility of witnesses, and and

1650
01:35:57.439 --> 01:36:00.000
on this record, there's no way to find miss Hill

1651
01:36:00.079 --> 01:36:03.479
all credible. There's no way to credit her statements that

1652
01:36:03.520 --> 01:36:08.680
she did not make these statements about his testimony. I mean,

1653
01:36:08.760 --> 01:36:11.800
she crossed herself up as your Honor is questioning her

1654
01:36:12.199 --> 01:36:16.720
about the transcript involving the egg lady and how the

1655
01:36:16.760 --> 01:36:20.840
egg lady learned that there's some Facebook posts that was

1656
01:36:21.079 --> 01:36:23.720
Lesterli attributed to her husband. There's no way the egg

1657
01:36:23.800 --> 01:36:26.079
Lady would have known that unless Miss Hill told her,

1658
01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:29.920
and that pretty much came out there. So you know,

1659
01:36:30.640 --> 01:36:32.359
and I know this is not a jury argument, but

1660
01:36:32.800 --> 01:36:36.960
if someone misrepresents the fact to you once, I mean,

1661
01:36:37.000 --> 01:36:39.840
I don't think you should go back and credit anything

1662
01:36:39.880 --> 01:36:45.119
beyond that. What we hear from miss Micklevin is that

1663
01:36:45.199 --> 01:36:50.000
she heard these almost identical statements from Miss Hill. That

1664
01:36:50.079 --> 01:36:54.119
Miss Hill told that three of the twelve deliberating jurors

1665
01:36:54.159 --> 01:36:58.680
heard and the fourth alternate her that missus Micklevin heard

1666
01:36:58.680 --> 01:37:03.279
her make very similar about the defense's case about mister

1667
01:37:03.319 --> 01:37:07.600
Murlock's testimony. So you got to put missus Mickaelviane's testimony

1668
01:37:07.680 --> 01:37:12.159
in our category. And Miss Hill gets up there and says,

1669
01:37:13.159 --> 01:37:16.960
never drove a juror home. Miss Mickleban's got no dog

1670
01:37:17.000 --> 01:37:20.000
in this fight. And she says, she goes to court

1671
01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:22.960
one day she hears that Miss Hill took a juror

1672
01:37:22.960 --> 01:37:25.039
home the night before and went and talked to her

1673
01:37:25.079 --> 01:37:27.960
and said you can't do that. Miss Hill said, I

1674
01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:30.119
didn't talk to her about the case. Well, she gets

1675
01:37:30.159 --> 01:37:31.359
on the stand under oath here.

1676
01:37:31.239 --> 01:37:33.000
And tells you, I never took it care of home.

1677
01:37:33.880 --> 01:37:37.640
I mean, it's totally inconsistent, and and for her to

1678
01:37:37.680 --> 01:37:42.720
say I never made these statements, you know she tried.

1679
01:37:42.920 --> 01:37:45.039
I mean she kind of gave herself a little wiggle

1680
01:37:45.119 --> 01:37:47.560
room at the end. We will when they were lining up,

1681
01:37:47.600 --> 01:37:50.039
I may have said he's going to testify today or something.

1682
01:37:50.439 --> 01:37:55.880
But these jurors heard this information. And the question under

1683
01:37:56.119 --> 01:38:01.680
Green and Remor it was it prejudicudicial? Now what we

1684
01:38:01.840 --> 01:38:09.239
got from Jersey today? The question was did these comments

1685
01:38:09.800 --> 01:38:15.000
influence your verdict? And Jurisy Z says yes. Then you

1686
01:38:15.039 --> 01:38:20.720
ask how and Z says, to me, it felt like

1687
01:38:21.319 --> 01:38:25.359
she made it seem like he was already guilty. Then

1688
01:38:25.359 --> 01:38:27.439
you said, did it affect your finding of guilt in

1689
01:38:27.479 --> 01:38:28.039
this case?

1690
01:38:28.640 --> 01:38:32.279
And the answer was yes. And so.

1691
01:38:34.760 --> 01:38:39.119
That's prejudice you're on. That is prejudice from one of

1692
01:38:39.159 --> 01:38:43.079
the twelve deliberating jurors. What's your verdict influence by.

1693
01:38:42.880 --> 01:38:46.319
What miss Hill said? And good grief, how could it

1694
01:38:46.359 --> 01:38:46.880
not be?

1695
01:38:47.319 --> 01:38:50.319
How could it not be? And to ask all these

1696
01:38:50.319 --> 01:38:52.920
other jurors who heard the same thing was an influence?

1697
01:38:53.800 --> 01:38:58.920
It is really an impossible task because you don't know

1698
01:38:59.000 --> 01:39:02.359
what's influenced seeing a jury, And frankly, that's why the

1699
01:39:02.760 --> 01:39:05.840
ramor of presumption is there. But but let's but but

1700
01:39:05.920 --> 01:39:07.600
let's try to sort this out.

1701
01:39:08.439 --> 01:39:09.199
And and you're a A.

1702
01:39:10.920 --> 01:39:12.199
I think it was it was a.

1703
01:39:12.239 --> 01:39:16.680
State Kelly case where the where the deputies went out

1704
01:39:16.720 --> 01:39:19.960
and they were investigating the juris beliefs on the death penalty,

1705
01:39:20.000 --> 01:39:23.199
and and there was really no testimony about did that

1706
01:39:23.359 --> 01:39:27.199
affect your verdict? But it was so it was just

1707
01:39:27.239 --> 01:39:30.000
so wrong. The conduct was so wrongful that the Supreme

1708
01:39:30.079 --> 01:39:36.159
Court says that's prejudicial and we're granting new trou I mean,

1709
01:39:36.479 --> 01:39:40.680
this is prejudice. And this has been proven. I mean,

1710
01:39:41.000 --> 01:39:43.560
miss Hill is not credible. Miss Hill is not credible.

1711
01:39:43.560 --> 01:39:45.960
And he's talking about her book talking about taking literary

1712
01:39:46.039 --> 01:39:51.119
license to lie. Literary literary license to lie is what

1713
01:39:51.199 --> 01:39:57.239
she that's what she thinks a literary license is, so

1714
01:39:57.640 --> 01:40:03.039
her her testimony should not be credited. We have proven,

1715
01:40:03.159 --> 01:40:05.359
we have met our burden improving that there was an

1716
01:40:05.359 --> 01:40:10.960
extraneous contact with these jurors. Three of the twelve deliberating

1717
01:40:11.000 --> 01:40:14.800
gurors have testified to that. One of the twelve says

1718
01:40:15.239 --> 01:40:19.399
it influenced my verdict. How is that not prejudice? And

1719
01:40:19.439 --> 01:40:22.359
that's all we have to prove. We believe for the record.

1720
01:40:22.640 --> 01:40:25.079
There is a presumption of prejudice that they have to overcome.

1721
01:40:25.119 --> 01:40:28.199
But we have proven prejudice and you're on a respectfully

1722
01:40:28.279 --> 01:40:32.359
request that a new trial should be granted based on

1723
01:40:32.399 --> 01:40:33.920
the record developed today.

1724
01:40:34.079 --> 01:40:37.479
Thank you, So, after you heard all of that, ask

1725
01:40:37.520 --> 01:40:43.600
yourself this does this warrant a new trial? I'll give

1726
01:40:43.640 --> 01:40:47.520
you my thoughts after you listen to the Chief Justice

1727
01:40:47.800 --> 01:40:51.399
supply the verdict in this hearing, and here's that.

1728
01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:54.760
In a matter of State of South Carolina against Richard

1729
01:40:54.760 --> 01:40:59.680
and Alexander Murdoch two two two gs. Fifteen zero zero,

1730
01:40:59.720 --> 01:41:02.800
five nine two five nine three, five, nine, four and

1731
01:41:02.840 --> 01:41:09.319
five ninety five. The following constitutes my ruling on this

1732
01:41:09.439 --> 01:41:13.680
matter from the bench. This order will be supplemented, as

1733
01:41:13.720 --> 01:41:20.239
I will explain after proposed formal orders are received from

1734
01:41:20.239 --> 01:41:24.159
each side in this matter. This case is unique in

1735
01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:27.840
my twenty years of experience as a lawyer and my

1736
01:41:28.039 --> 01:41:31.319
thirty five years of experience as an active Justice of

1737
01:41:31.359 --> 01:41:36.479
the Supreme Court and a senior active trial and appellate judge.

1738
01:41:36.920 --> 01:41:42.279
Usually matters involving possible in proper contact with or conduct

1739
01:41:42.439 --> 01:41:47.199
of a juror arise during or shortly after the trial

1740
01:41:48.399 --> 01:41:53.680
the judge then puts the effected juror or jurors under oath,

1741
01:41:54.359 --> 01:41:58.479
conducts an examination and rules on the requests for a

1742
01:41:58.520 --> 01:42:03.720
new trial or a trial. In this case, I was

1743
01:42:03.760 --> 01:42:08.279
appointed almost nine months after the trial to replace the

1744
01:42:08.319 --> 01:42:12.800
trial judge who was recused. It is now almost ten

1745
01:42:12.880 --> 01:42:17.159
months after the verdict was rendered and sentence imposed in

1746
01:42:17.239 --> 01:42:21.560
this matter. It is now on appeal to the Court

1747
01:42:21.560 --> 01:42:27.560
of Appeals. Several months after the appeal was found, defendant

1748
01:42:28.680 --> 01:42:32.359
moved that his appeal be suspended and this matter be

1749
01:42:32.479 --> 01:42:36.520
remanded to the trial court to consider his motion for

1750
01:42:36.560 --> 01:42:40.159
a new trial on a charge that the Clerk of

1751
01:42:40.239 --> 01:42:45.640
Court for Collington County tampered with the jury by expressing

1752
01:42:45.680 --> 01:42:49.439
her opinion to the jurors about what their verdict should

1753
01:42:49.479 --> 01:42:53.119
be and about the credibility of the defendant, who had

1754
01:42:53.159 --> 01:42:56.840
elected to take the stand and testify on his own behalf.

1755
01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:03.159
Since this matter had has been remanded to me, I

1756
01:43:03.239 --> 01:43:06.520
have set the matter matter for a pre trial and

1757
01:43:06.600 --> 01:43:10.680
a final hearing. Conducted a telephoning status conference with the

1758
01:43:10.720 --> 01:43:14.600
attorneys for the parties on December the twenty first, twenty

1759
01:43:14.680 --> 01:43:19.319
twenty three. I have received briefs from the parties. I

1760
01:43:19.399 --> 01:43:23.199
conducted a pre trial proceeding on January the sixteenth, twenty

1761
01:43:23.239 --> 01:43:26.600
twenty fourth, in which I invited briefs and arguments by

1762
01:43:26.640 --> 01:43:29.239
the parties and by the attorneys for certain of the

1763
01:43:29.319 --> 01:43:34.239
jurors and for the Clerk of Court, Rebecca Hill. On Friday,

1764
01:43:34.439 --> 01:43:37.800
January the twenty sixth, twenty twenty fourth, I conducted a

1765
01:43:37.880 --> 01:43:41.680
hearing on this matter in which I took testimony from

1766
01:43:41.720 --> 01:43:49.479
one of the jurors. The conduct of the examination conducted

1767
01:43:49.560 --> 01:43:54.359
solely by me. I received further argument from the attorneys

1768
01:43:54.760 --> 01:43:58.720
for the state and for the defendant. Today, January the

1769
01:43:58.760 --> 01:44:03.920
twenty ninth, tenty four I have taken sworn testimony from

1770
01:44:03.960 --> 01:44:08.279
the remaining eleven jurors who rendered a verdict in this case.

1771
01:44:09.680 --> 01:44:13.880
This examination was conducted solely by me. I have found

1772
01:44:13.920 --> 01:44:17.399
no case that provides otherwise. In the many cases I

1773
01:44:17.399 --> 01:44:20.840
have read on the subject of a motion for a

1774
01:44:20.880 --> 01:44:23.960
new trial on the basis of after discovered evidence of

1775
01:44:24.079 --> 01:44:29.039
jury tampering or misconduct, I have also received sworn testimony

1776
01:44:29.199 --> 01:44:35.199
from the Clerk of Court, Rebecca Hill. Direct examination was

1777
01:44:35.239 --> 01:44:39.520
conducted by a Deputy Attorney General, Creighton Waters. Cross examination

1778
01:44:40.039 --> 01:44:44.800
was conducted by defendant attorney Richard Harputlin. I have also

1779
01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:50.399
propounded questions myself to the Clerk of court. I also

1780
01:44:50.479 --> 01:44:53.399
received testimony from the Clerk of Court for Barnwell County,

1781
01:44:53.600 --> 01:44:58.800
Ronda Michaelvin, who attended most of the trial and assisted

1782
01:44:59.600 --> 01:45:04.720
the clerk for Cayton County. Have also received testimony from

1783
01:45:04.800 --> 01:45:11.960
the remaining alternate juror, who was when the matter was

1784
01:45:12.000 --> 01:45:17.640
deliberated dismissed from further service. The following is my ruling

1785
01:45:17.680 --> 01:45:21.840
on the defendant's motion the standard of proof. The state

1786
01:45:21.920 --> 01:45:25.439
contends that, in order to prevail, the defendant must show

1787
01:45:25.960 --> 01:45:29.520
one that the Clerk of Court made an improper comment

1788
01:45:29.720 --> 01:45:32.560
or propounded an improper question to the member of the

1789
01:45:32.640 --> 01:45:37.520
jury to a member of the jury who rendered the verdict.

1790
01:45:38.640 --> 01:45:45.159
To defendant must further show that missus Hill's improper comment

1791
01:45:45.399 --> 01:45:52.279
or question actually influenced the juror's verdict. Citing State v. Green,

1792
01:45:52.600 --> 01:45:57.039
State v. Alidret and other opinions of our Supreme Court

1793
01:45:57.319 --> 01:46:02.479
and other authorities, contends that he must show only that

1794
01:46:02.560 --> 01:46:06.039
an improper question or comment was propounded to any juror

1795
01:46:06.640 --> 01:46:09.840
by a clerk of court Hill. If so proved, The

1796
01:46:09.920 --> 01:46:12.680
defendant contends that the motion for the new trial must

1797
01:46:12.760 --> 01:46:16.560
be granted. Defendant relies on the United States be remor

1798
01:46:16.760 --> 01:46:23.640
in many other cases. My ruling is this on the law,

1799
01:46:23.880 --> 01:46:27.720
the defendant has the burden of proving both the fact

1800
01:46:27.800 --> 01:46:32.119
of the improper comment or questioned by the Clerk of

1801
01:46:32.199 --> 01:46:37.159
Court Rebecca Hill to juror a juror or jurors, and

1802
01:46:37.239 --> 01:46:42.560
to prejudice suffered by the defendants, specifically that the hill

1803
01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:51.279
improper comments to the jur or jurors influence the juror

1804
01:46:51.439 --> 01:46:59.079
to vote to convict defendant murderch the facts, did Clerk

1805
01:46:59.119 --> 01:47:04.039
of Court Hill make comments to any juror which expressed

1806
01:47:04.039 --> 01:47:08.760
her opinion of what the verdict would be. Miss Hill

1807
01:47:08.880 --> 01:47:15.039
denies a, and so the question becomes was her denial credible?

1808
01:47:16.039 --> 01:47:19.760
I find that the Clerk of court is not completely credible.

1809
01:47:19.880 --> 01:47:24.319
As a witness. Miss Hill was attracted by the siren

1810
01:47:24.439 --> 01:47:27.720
call of celebrity. She wanted to write a book about

1811
01:47:27.760 --> 01:47:31.720
the trial, and expressed that as early as November twenty

1812
01:47:31.880 --> 01:47:37.279
twenty two, long before the trial began. She denies that

1813
01:47:38.279 --> 01:47:44.119
this is so, but I find that she stated to

1814
01:47:44.239 --> 01:47:49.960
the Clerk of Court Ronda McKelvin and others her desire

1815
01:47:50.079 --> 01:47:54.000
for a guilty verdict because it would sell books. She

1816
01:47:54.079 --> 01:47:59.119
made comments about Murdoch's demeanor as he testified, and she

1817
01:47:59.239 --> 01:48:04.600
made some of the comments before he testified to at

1818
01:48:04.720 --> 01:48:09.920
least one and maybe more jurorids did Clerk of Court

1819
01:48:10.199 --> 01:48:14.439
Hill's comments have any impact on the verdict of the jury?

1820
01:48:15.399 --> 01:48:17.680
I find that the answer to this question is no.

1821
01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:24.119
Each member of this jury took their involuntary assignment very seriously.

1822
01:48:24.840 --> 01:48:29.359
They obeyed the instructions of the court. They obeyed their oath.

1823
01:48:30.439 --> 01:48:33.680
These good and decent citizens of Carleton County stood to

1824
01:48:33.760 --> 01:48:37.600
their duty and rendered their verdict without fear or favor.

1825
01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:42.199
It was a difficult task. Eleven of the jurors very

1826
01:48:42.279 --> 01:48:46.560
unconditionally said they either heard no comment, or if they

1827
01:48:46.560 --> 01:48:50.439
heard a comment, it had no effect. One juror was

1828
01:48:50.520 --> 01:48:55.359
ambivalent in her testimony. She was then examined on her

1829
01:48:55.399 --> 01:48:59.439
previous affidavit in which she said the effect, if any,

1830
01:49:00.079 --> 01:49:03.239
that she had was pressure she felt from other jurors.

1831
01:49:03.640 --> 01:49:07.640
The cases are myriad that pressure from fellow jurors is

1832
01:49:07.680 --> 01:49:10.920
a part of the normal give and take of jury deliberations.

1833
01:49:10.960 --> 01:49:14.800
The court is not inquiring any way about what is

1834
01:49:14.880 --> 01:49:19.960
said in those deliberations, but the juror was somewhat ambiliment

1835
01:49:20.680 --> 01:49:25.199
said on her oath at the time of trial twice,

1836
01:49:25.680 --> 01:49:29.600
and said on her oath before me in these proceedings

1837
01:49:30.560 --> 01:49:35.239
that she stood to her oath. The clerk of court

1838
01:49:35.479 --> 01:49:40.199
allowed public attention of the moment to overcome her duty.

1839
01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:44.680
I have read the entire transcript of this lengthy trial,

1840
01:49:44.840 --> 01:49:48.720
not an easy task. I have studied in detail all

1841
01:49:48.800 --> 01:49:54.239
of the authorities cited. I have independently researched the case law,

1842
01:49:54.920 --> 01:50:00.079
learned treatises and scholarly articles on the subject. Although there

1843
01:50:00.119 --> 01:50:03.399
is certainly a split in the federal circuits and in

1844
01:50:03.439 --> 01:50:07.520
the States on the standard of review, I simply do

1845
01:50:07.560 --> 01:50:12.039
not believe that the authority of our Cy Carolina Supreme

1846
01:50:12.079 --> 01:50:17.199
Court requires a new trial in a very lengthy trial

1847
01:50:17.439 --> 01:50:21.000
such as this on the strength of some fleeting and

1848
01:50:21.119 --> 01:50:26.840
foolish comments by a publicity influenced clerk of court. This

1849
01:50:27.119 --> 01:50:31.640
is a matter within the discretion of the trial judge,

1850
01:50:31.840 --> 01:50:34.399
and I am the trial judge at this moment. I

1851
01:50:34.479 --> 01:50:38.880
do not feel that I abuse my discretion when I

1852
01:50:39.039 --> 01:50:44.479
find the defendant's motion for a new trial on the

1853
01:50:44.520 --> 01:50:48.840
factual record before me must be denied, and it is

1854
01:50:48.880 --> 01:50:54.520
so ordered upon receipt the Court of all proposed orders,

1855
01:50:54.840 --> 01:51:00.319
I will finalize this record, submit a written order, and

1856
01:51:00.359 --> 01:51:04.239
I will at that time transmit the written order to

1857
01:51:04.399 --> 01:51:07.600
the Court of Appeals, the court which has remanded this

1858
01:51:07.680 --> 01:51:10.119
matter to me. His hearing is adjourn.

1859
01:51:10.920 --> 01:51:15.720
Okay, so I'll say this, and I mean this with

1860
01:51:15.920 --> 01:51:21.159
all due respect. It's my opinion and believe, after hearing

1861
01:51:21.319 --> 01:51:29.159
both sides here that Chief Justice told got it wrong.

1862
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:34.680
I was actually shocked that Murdoch did not get a

1863
01:51:34.720 --> 01:51:37.159
new trial. And it has nothing to do with his

1864
01:51:37.279 --> 01:51:40.640
guilt or innocence zero. It has everything to do with

1865
01:51:40.760 --> 01:51:43.279
the fact that even a blind man could see that

1866
01:51:43.359 --> 01:51:47.960
this jury was influenced by Becky Hill, that she, in

1867
01:51:48.039 --> 01:51:51.960
my opinion, was doing what the defense accused her of doing,

1868
01:51:52.399 --> 01:51:55.720
which was to ensure that guilty plea to sell bucks.

1869
01:51:56.239 --> 01:52:01.199
And when the juror expressed doubt regardingaradox guilt in that

1870
01:52:01.319 --> 01:52:05.960
original trial, I think Becky Hill panicked and went so

1871
01:52:06.199 --> 01:52:10.960
far as to have that yard dismissed to ensure a

1872
01:52:11.079 --> 01:52:17.159
guilty plea. And that pisses me off, not because I

1873
01:52:17.199 --> 01:52:22.119
think that Myrdau deserves to get a new trial, per se,

1874
01:52:22.720 --> 01:52:27.600
but that's not what is relevant here. Our court system

1875
01:52:27.760 --> 01:52:33.199
is what represents everything that is great about the United States.

1876
01:52:33.239 --> 01:52:40.159
It's the cornerstone of that that you cannot tamper with

1877
01:52:40.319 --> 01:52:47.439
the fucking jury, not ever, no matter how clear someone's

1878
01:52:47.520 --> 01:52:52.399
guilt may be. So with all due respect and I

1879
01:52:52.439 --> 01:52:56.279
think the world of the Chief Justice, I really do.

1880
01:52:57.640 --> 01:53:03.199
She got this one in my view, and later on

1881
01:53:03.880 --> 01:53:06.920
you're gonna see that I am not the only one

1882
01:53:06.960 --> 01:53:12.359
with that opinion. I'd be curious to know what yours is. Now,

1883
01:53:12.880 --> 01:53:15.399
it's been a long one today, so we're about to

1884
01:53:15.399 --> 01:53:17.439
wrap this one up. But I want to let you

1885
01:53:17.640 --> 01:53:23.039
in on one more interesting thing that happened after this hearing.

1886
01:53:24.279 --> 01:53:28.520
On March twenty fifth of twenty twenty four, just a

1887
01:53:28.560 --> 01:53:35.039
couple of months later, Becky Hill resigns as Clerk of

1888
01:53:35.079 --> 01:53:39.680
Court of Collington County. Here's what that sounded like.

1889
01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:43.840
Along with will Lewis our council for Miss Becky Hill,

1890
01:53:43.880 --> 01:53:47.319
the Colleton County Clerk of Court. Today will be brief,

1891
01:53:47.439 --> 01:53:53.039
but today's important. Obviously, over the last few months, Miss

1892
01:53:53.159 --> 01:53:59.760
Hill has really wanted to address her constituents. Obviously with

1893
01:54:00.279 --> 01:54:05.000
that were going on, she has certain rights and she's

1894
01:54:05.039 --> 01:54:08.399
got to protect herself most of which came under the

1895
01:54:08.439 --> 01:54:12.079
advice of counsel. And that I think has been lost

1896
01:54:12.119 --> 01:54:14.319
on a lot of people with everything that's been going on,

1897
01:54:15.119 --> 01:54:17.680
is that as Clerk of Court, you do have a

1898
01:54:17.720 --> 01:54:22.039
constituency the residents here in Colleton County and today could

1899
01:54:22.079 --> 01:54:25.439
have occurred be hid and behind a computer screen or

1900
01:54:25.479 --> 01:54:29.600
hide and behind her lawyers, and Miss Hill was committed

1901
01:54:29.640 --> 01:54:33.439
to that not happening, and I stand with her, and

1902
01:54:33.520 --> 01:54:38.520
I also respect her very much for being here today.

1903
01:54:38.960 --> 01:54:41.760
So without further ado, I'll turn the floor over to

1904
01:54:42.119 --> 01:54:42.880
Miss Becky Hille.

1905
01:54:45.439 --> 01:54:49.199
Good morning everyone. It has been my honor and pleasure

1906
01:54:49.239 --> 01:54:51.840
to serve as your Colleton County Clerk of Court. Over

1907
01:54:51.880 --> 01:54:55.560
these past four years, the Clerk's Office has provided many

1908
01:54:55.600 --> 01:54:58.680
services to the College, to the citizens of Colleton County,

1909
01:54:59.199 --> 01:55:01.399
the College in County. Any Clerk's Office is proud of

1910
01:55:01.399 --> 01:55:05.119
our services and the significant impacts we have made in

1911
01:55:05.199 --> 01:55:09.159
the history of South Carolina. Here at the Colleton County Courthouse,

1912
01:55:09.159 --> 01:55:12.640
you will find a full service passport office with certified

1913
01:55:12.640 --> 01:55:16.520
agents ready to help you, as well as notary services

1914
01:55:16.560 --> 01:55:21.199
and e filing that has streamlined our civil processes. Another

1915
01:55:21.279 --> 01:55:24.800
significant impact in our Clerk's office was in twenty twenty

1916
01:55:24.840 --> 01:55:27.439
three when we had to manage one of the biggest

1917
01:55:27.479 --> 01:55:31.920
trials in South Carolina history. Our small town came together

1918
01:55:32.319 --> 01:55:36.600
and made everyone proud managing a trial with such importance

1919
01:55:36.680 --> 01:55:39.920
to the people of South Carolina as well as of

1920
01:55:39.960 --> 01:55:44.720
the national and international media interest and public scrutiny, and

1921
01:55:44.760 --> 01:55:48.479
has caused me to reflect upon decisions involving my stay

1922
01:55:48.520 --> 01:55:51.479
in the office of the Clerk of Court, and so

1923
01:55:51.640 --> 01:55:55.039
after much reflection, I have decided that it is best

1924
01:55:55.079 --> 01:55:59.199
not to run again for reelection. I will now be

1925
01:55:59.239 --> 01:56:02.479
able to focus on being a wife, a mother, and

1926
01:56:02.520 --> 01:56:05.640
a grandmother to my two grand boys, and will be

1927
01:56:05.680 --> 01:56:08.279
spending time with a people who mean the most to me.

1928
01:56:09.159 --> 01:56:11.760
With the upcoming election, I wanted to ensure that I

1929
01:56:11.880 --> 01:56:16.039
provided ample time for other Republican candidates who may be

1930
01:56:16.119 --> 01:56:21.159
interested in pursuing this position. I want to publicly thank

1931
01:56:21.319 --> 01:56:24.279
all of the citizens of call Itton County who voted

1932
01:56:24.279 --> 01:56:28.000
for me, who have supported me, and who have stood

1933
01:56:28.000 --> 01:56:31.239
by me. I also want to take just a moment

1934
01:56:31.680 --> 01:56:36.960
to extend heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of

1935
01:56:37.000 --> 01:56:42.600
a very very kind professional educator here in Collington County

1936
01:56:42.640 --> 01:56:46.279
who has departed this life and gone on to the

1937
01:56:46.840 --> 01:56:49.800
other life that she has, and that is the family

1938
01:56:49.840 --> 01:56:52.760
of Debbie Price. And so today I just want to

1939
01:56:52.760 --> 01:56:56.359
take a few seconds of silence just to remember her

1940
01:56:57.000 --> 01:57:06.119
and her family and friends. I also want to thank

1941
01:57:06.159 --> 01:57:09.479
my amazing staff who work in the Clerk of Court's

1942
01:57:09.479 --> 01:57:12.520
office for the wonderful job that they have done and

1943
01:57:12.600 --> 01:57:16.319
that they will continue to do. We are fortunate to

1944
01:57:16.359 --> 01:57:19.479
have strong leadership within our office, and I am proud

1945
01:57:19.479 --> 01:57:23.319
to say that our Clerk's Office will seamlessly move forward.

1946
01:57:24.239 --> 01:57:27.039
I look forward to all of the future holds and

1947
01:57:27.079 --> 01:57:30.520
will fondly remember the true amazing friendships that I have

1948
01:57:30.640 --> 01:57:34.680
made while serving the incredible people of Colleton County. And

1949
01:57:34.760 --> 01:57:38.520
so as we fix our eyes forward, I would like

1950
01:57:38.600 --> 01:57:42.000
to announce also that my resignation as Clerk of Court

1951
01:57:42.199 --> 01:57:43.880
will be effective immediately.

1952
01:57:44.399 --> 01:57:50.800
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. I do have in my

1953
01:57:50.920 --> 01:57:58.119
hand a signed copy of Miss Hill's official resignation that

1954
01:57:58.159 --> 01:58:02.800
will be forwarded to the Governor's Office Governor hemm Master's

1955
01:58:02.840 --> 01:58:09.760
office later today. I've served in the South Carolina State

1956
01:58:09.800 --> 01:58:14.119
House for over a decade now. When we run as

1957
01:58:14.119 --> 01:58:17.920
elected officials in this state, we run publicly our lives

1958
01:58:18.000 --> 01:58:22.000
become public We serve publicly, and it's only fitting and

1959
01:58:22.039 --> 01:58:26.199
I respect Miss Hill very much that the conclusion of

1960
01:58:26.239 --> 01:58:33.800
her service also happens publicly. I'll be taking a couple

1961
01:58:33.800 --> 01:58:36.119
of questions, but I do want to say one thing

1962
01:58:36.560 --> 01:58:40.680
because I know that there are speculation and rumors. Having

1963
01:58:40.760 --> 01:58:43.439
lived in small town South Carolina my entire life, I

1964
01:58:43.479 --> 01:58:46.399
can see where people's minds may run after an announcement

1965
01:58:46.439 --> 01:58:46.920
such as this.

1966
01:58:47.600 --> 01:58:49.199
So let me be extremely clear.

1967
01:58:50.279 --> 01:58:55.720
Today is not in response whatsoever to anything going on

1968
01:58:55.840 --> 01:59:00.680
with any investigation or anything of that nature. Okay, and

1969
01:59:00.680 --> 01:59:04.720
I'm gonna say that one more time. Today is not

1970
01:59:04.880 --> 01:59:08.239
in response to any new development of some investigation or

1971
01:59:08.239 --> 01:59:12.920
anything like that. Today is about the people of Colleton County.

1972
01:59:13.640 --> 01:59:13.760
Uh.

1973
01:59:13.800 --> 01:59:19.159
There is still another week available for filing for the

1974
01:59:19.199 --> 01:59:22.079
Clerk of Court's office, and.

1975
01:59:23.720 --> 01:59:24.640
It is what it is.

1976
01:59:25.039 --> 01:59:25.199
Uh.

1977
01:59:25.319 --> 01:59:29.560
If Miss Hill had stayed in office, the people of

1978
01:59:29.640 --> 01:59:34.039
Collinson County would be the ones who get distracted to

1979
01:59:34.079 --> 01:59:37.439
a certain degree because there are a number of candidates

1980
01:59:37.520 --> 01:59:38.880
running for Clerk of Court.

1981
01:59:39.680 --> 01:59:39.840
Uh.

1982
01:59:39.920 --> 01:59:43.479
Those candidates have different things that they different platforms that

1983
01:59:43.520 --> 01:59:47.359
they want to campaign on, and it would be inevitable

1984
01:59:48.000 --> 01:59:53.199
that if Becky was still serving while those candidates were campaigning.

1985
01:59:54.319 --> 01:59:57.279
Every time they mentioned something, every time there's an article,

1986
01:59:57.399 --> 02:00:00.600
every time there's a forum and candidates are discussing of

1987
02:00:00.640 --> 02:00:04.199
the future that they see to create for the courthouse.

1988
02:00:04.239 --> 02:00:06.800
Behind us, UH, there will be a degree of a

1989
02:00:06.840 --> 02:00:09.960
cloud over that because it'll be talking about the sitting clerk,

1990
02:00:10.039 --> 02:00:13.439
et cetera. So this decision was made wholeheartedly by Miss

1991
02:00:13.479 --> 02:00:18.199
Hill for the benefit UH and and to the benefit

1992
02:00:18.239 --> 02:00:21.840
of the citizens of Collison County. We will not address

1993
02:00:21.920 --> 02:00:25.199
any investigation stuff, whether it be seld or state ethics

1994
02:00:25.319 --> 02:00:29.239
or anything like that. So please, I know it's tough.

1995
02:00:29.319 --> 02:00:31.039
I can see some of the faces out there, no

1996
02:00:31.199 --> 02:00:35.079
questions about any of that. If you do ask, I'm

1997
02:00:35.119 --> 02:00:39.840
gonna dodge it because we're not gonna comment on that.

1998
02:00:39.880 --> 02:00:43.159
We're not gonna detract from the from the positive nature

1999
02:00:43.239 --> 02:00:45.479
of today, the bittersweet positive nature of today.

2000
02:00:46.119 --> 02:00:49.199
With that, so, if that said, I.

2001
02:00:49.119 --> 02:00:52.880
Would like to acknowledge behind us faithful members of the

2002
02:00:52.880 --> 02:00:56.920
Clerk of Court's Office. UH. These are dedicated employees to

2003
02:00:57.000 --> 02:00:59.039
the people of College.

2004
02:00:58.760 --> 02:00:59.680
And County.

2005
02:01:01.039 --> 02:01:03.600
And we want to thank them for everything that they

2006
02:01:04.119 --> 02:01:06.880
have been doing, everything that they will continue to do

2007
02:01:08.079 --> 02:01:10.439
so that we can continue to make Calton County as

2008
02:01:10.479 --> 02:01:12.039
great as it is.

2009
02:01:13.319 --> 02:01:18.600
So what's the truth to why she resigned? Because what

2010
02:01:18.640 --> 02:01:23.000
you just heard was bullshit? Well I'm gonna tell you

2011
02:01:23.560 --> 02:01:28.640
that next week. So check out the Patreon and consider

2012
02:01:28.960 --> 02:01:32.399
becoming a celebrity supporter. These folks are why we exist,

2013
02:01:32.560 --> 02:01:35.920
plain and simple, and there are all kinds of benefits

2014
02:01:35.960 --> 02:01:40.000
you can't find anywhere else. Just visit us, patreon dot com,

2015
02:01:40.039 --> 02:01:47.840
slash exposed podcast files and until next time for exposed

2016
02:01:48.399 --> 02:01:52.800
scandalous files of the elite. I'm your host, Jim Chapman.

2017
02:01:53.840 --> 02:01:54.479
Much love,