Feb. 6, 2025

"Murdaugh" Episode Twenty | Alex Takes The Stand

"Murdaugh" Episode Twenty | Alex Takes The Stand

Host Jim Chapman guides you through the testimony of Alex Murdaugh as he takes the stand in his own defense, facing off against seasoned prosecutor Creighton Waters during his murder trial.
“Murdaugh” is a series brought to you by Exposed:Scandalous...

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Season 1

Host Jim Chapman guides you through the testimony of Alex Murdaugh as he takes the stand in his own defense, facing off against seasoned prosecutor Creighton Waters during his murder trial.
“Murdaugh” is a series brought to you by Exposed:Scandalous Files of the Elite podcast and is a produced by Envision Podcast Productions.

#murdaugh #AlexMurdaugh #creightonwaters #exposed #podcast #Southcarolina

Timestamps
00:15 Alex Murdaugh Takes the Stand
25:31 Badge and Benefits
30:27 Unraveling the Truth
31:55 The Weight of the Badge
36:12 Legacy of the Murdochs
50:25 Accusations and Confessions
57:02 Investigation Insights
1:05:21 Stolen Money and Legal Fees
1:38:37 Falsifying Recovery Amounts
1:47:55 Conversations with Victims
1:52:36 Reflection and Recess

For collaborations, promotions, or appearances email Jim at: https://www.exposedpodcastfiles@gmail.com

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/exposed-scandalous-files-of-the-elite--6073723/support.

WEBVTT

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Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of

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the Elite. I am your host, Jim Chapman, and we

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are back with this twentieth installment in the Murdall series.

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And if you were to ask me at the start

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of this series, what part did I want to get

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to so bad I could taste it? It's this episode

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right here, So let me set the stage. Alex Murdall

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does something that I sure did not predict at the

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start of this trial. He takes the stand in his

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own defense. And if you've been around a little while,

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you know, like I do that, in almost one hundred

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percent of cases, the worst thing that you can possibly

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do is take the stand in your own defense. It's

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a quick way to incriminate yourself. And remember the burden

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of proof is all on the prosecution. When someone is

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defending themselves on the stand themselves, they are typically losing.

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So why did he do it?

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Well?

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I think it's twofold.

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First, I think everyone on the defense side of this trial,

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including Alex, they knew they were pretty much getting their

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asses kicked and if they didn't do something drastic, Alex

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was screwed. But even more importantly to them, I feel

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was that Alex he was a highly skilled lawyer, and

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with all his faults, Alex knew how to relate to

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a jury. And remember how dumb Alex sounds in those

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jeilhouse phone calls that I drop every now and then. Well,

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let's just say this right here, this testimony you're about

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to hear is proof positive that he definitely has split personality.

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There's no doubt about it. I mean, he sounds articulate,

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for the most part, almost likable during his testimony, and

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he definitely does a masterful job of resonating with the jury.

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But he had something very integral in this trial going

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against him, which was the absolute emergence of prosecutor Creating Waters,

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who not only held his own in the questioning of mrdal,

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but at least in my view, annihilated the master. It

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is really something special you're about to listen to out

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of this seasoned prosecutor. So we'll pick up with the

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first clip right at the start of the questioning. And

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here's what that sounded like, mister.

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MURDI going to start with a few things I think

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we can agree on, all right, sir, you agree that

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the most important part of your testimony here today is

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explaining your life for a year and a half that

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you were never down to those kennels at eight forty four?

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Would you agree with that?

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I think all of my testimony is important.

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Would you agree that that's an important part of your testimony?

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Sure?

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All right? And would you also agree that the first

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time that law enforcement officers that you've talked to, and

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the prosecution and here an open court ever heard you

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say that you lied about being in the kennels was

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today in this court.

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Yes, I'm aware of that. You would agree with that, yes, sir?

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All right, all this time later, this is the first

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time you've ever said that, yes, sir, And you would

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agree to me with me that for years you were

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stealing money.

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From clients, Yes, sir, I agree with that.

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And that you were stealing from your law firm.

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Yes, sir, I agree with that.

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And that had been going on since at least twenty ten.

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I'm not sure the exact date, but it's been going

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on a long time. I agree with that.

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What's your best guest of other day?

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I'm not sure. I don't take a dispute with twenty ten.

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I just don't know that for sure.

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All Right, I'm sure about a lot of things, but

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you don't know that exact correct.

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I'm fine with that date, mister Waters. I don't have

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any reason to dispute it. I'm just not certain of it.

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All right. Let's just keep on things that we may

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be able to agree about, and let's talk first about

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your family's legacy here in the legal profession.

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Okay, so a bet anything you want to?

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Good? Uh, tell me about your great grandfather. Was he

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the solicitor for the very circuit that we're in, yes, sir?

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And what was his name?

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Randolph A. Meurdic Senior?

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All right? What did he go by it?

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You know, Randolph Randolph?

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And did you ever get to know him or did

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he pass before?

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Oh? No, sir, he got killed in nineteen forty.

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And how long was he solicitor?

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Twenty years? Twenty years, yes, sir?

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And then your grandfather, who.

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Was that, Randolph A. Meurdic Junior?

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All right? And did he go by what did he

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go by?

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Buster? That's who Buster is named after him?

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And was he solicitor?

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Yes, sir, he was the solicitor for forty six forty

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six years from nineteen forty he took over with my

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great granddaddy got killed and he served until nineteen eighty six.

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He was the longest serving prosecutor in the country.

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And you knew him obviously well, he was your grandfather, correct.

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Oh, I knew him extremely well and loved him.

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Dearly, idolized him, did you not, Yes, you know, so

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he was a JEF prosecutor for all that time as well.

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Is that correct, yes, sir.

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And then your father, mister Randolph, he became solicitor not

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long after that, is that correct?

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When my grandfather retired because you weren't allowed to be

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solicitor after age seventy two, my dad took over filled

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his unexpired term and then he ran.

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And he became the chief prosecutor for this area right

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here as well, yes, sir. And how long was he solicitor.

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From nineteen eighty six until two thousand and six?

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Till two thousand and six, Yes, sir, I actually worked

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a case with them by a guy who killed a trooper.

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It's a fine, fine, fine man, Yes, what excellent lawyer.

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Yes he was, and he was an excellent lawyer, right, Yes, sir.

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That's a big part of your family legacy and your heritage.

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That's so ingrained around here. Is that history of being

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the chief prosecutor and being part of the central part

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of the legal community. Is that correct? Would you agree

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with that?

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Did my family's been a central part of the legal community, Yes, sir,

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I agree with that.

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And not only just the central part of the legal community,

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but the chief prosecutor for this area since nineteen ten.

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I think up until two thousand and.

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Six, nineteen twenty, nineteen, twenty, twenty six. Nineteen ten is

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when my great grandfather started the law.

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The law firm, Yes, sir, all right, soneen twenty to

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two thousand and six.

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Correct, that's correct.

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An unbroken chain of being the chief prosecutor here, correct,

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that's correct. And then you went to law school as well,

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is that right?

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Yes, sir?

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And when did you graduate from law school?

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Nineteen ninety four, nineteen ninety.

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Four, And did you ever become a full time solicitor?

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No, sir?

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And you so you went into private practice to think

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with Mawson Kuhn.

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Is that right, yes, sir, nineteen ninety four to the.

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Former law firm that no longer exists because of your activities.

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Correct, I started in nineteen ninety.

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Question, if you would please first, what was your question.

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My question was that you started first with Mawson Couhn.

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Go ahead and answer to that one.

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Yes, that's correct.

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And then you went to the law firm that doesn't

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exist anymore. That started in nineteen but it doesn't exist

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anymore because of your activities. Correct, that's correct, and it's

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part of that of your practice. You were a trill yer.

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Correct, that's correct.

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Successful trial order.

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I don't know about your adjective, but I was you know,

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I guess so, yes, sir.

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Did you make millions of dollars in legal fees? Yes, sir,

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but you won't tell this jury that's successful.

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If if that's the criteria, Yes, sir, I was successful.

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Well you won cases, correct, I did win cases, subtle cases, sure,

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settled cases. Heard your former law partners say that you

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were a successful lawyer.

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I did hear some of them say that.

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I think you even became president of the Tralllawyers Association.

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Is that right?

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That's correct?

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And when was that?

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I'm not sure of the exact year, but it would

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have been in the two thousand and fifteen range, twenty fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,

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somewhere in there.

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And in that role you were kind of the president

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of the Association of People who do Trial planets work right, yes, sir,

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to do jury trials correct?

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Well, that part of it, right, yes, sir, that's that's

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part of it.

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That's part of sitting down looking jurors in the eyes

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and giving a clothing off. Is that right?

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Yes?

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And what kind of cases did you normally do? Just

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generally what subject matter?

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I did all kinds of cases. I did cases that

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I mean, I handled some very big cases. You know.

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I had a lot of cases where you know, somebody

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their cable company was billing them twenty dollars more than

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they should have been. And I handled everything from that

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to the big cases and everything in between.

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All right, So the big cases, tell me about those?

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Those were typically plants work, All plaintffs work correct for

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your big cases.

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Yes, okay?

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And planet's work is where or they would be, say,

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for example, automobile or truck accidents correct or that some

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of it?

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All every big case I ever had was automobile. I

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mean no, sir, Not all of them were automobile.

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Wrecks were many of them, sure, And if they, let's

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say it, your plaintiff collided with like a ups truck

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or tractor trailer or something like that. You've had cases

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like that, correct, and they led to very big recoveries.

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Is that correct?

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The UPS case did I handle? Yeah, yes, sir.

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All right. And as a part of that developing those

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types of cases, you were involved in investigating the facts

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of the case. Correct. Yes, And you were involved in

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gathering let's say, telemetry data from automobiles.

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Correct, telemetry data like you presented in this courtroom this week.

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Yeah, you never did that.

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I've never had a case specifically where the type data

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that y'all are presented in this case that I've used.

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But I've had data from automobiles.

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I've had from their essentially their computer.

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And Star data. I've had data from the black box,

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you know, but specifically telemetry data. I don't believe that

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I've ever had one of those.

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But on Star and black Box data.

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Correct. More so the black box event recorder. I mean,

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many times in a wreck, the event recorder will go

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back and tell you things leading up to the wreck.

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Sure.

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So, And I've been in numerous cases where those were involved.

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And you've had cases where cell phone evidence was relevant

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to your case.

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Sure, people's colleagues were relevant to your case, I have

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had those.

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Cell tower location was relevant to your case? Yes, computer

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evidence was relevant to your case.

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I'm sure I have. Yes.

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And when did you start with the law firm?

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August of September of nineteen ninety eight.

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And you've been doing essentially that kind of work more

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or less up until September of twenty twenty one. That's correct,

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to the point where you rose to be the president

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of the Trial Lawyers Association.

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I was the president of Trial Lawyers Association in around

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twenty fifteen.

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As we discussed, can we agree now on successful?

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I mean, by those criteria I was successful, certainly. I

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mean we've talked about a lot of my flaws here

237
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.960
today too. I feel like I was successful, No, sir,

238
00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:04.759
not sitting here today, I don't. But if you want

239
00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:08.279
to use that term and on those criterias, I don't

240
00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:10.440
have any problem with you saying at that time it

241
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:11.799
looked like I was successful.

242
00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.759
Do you think people viewed you as a successful order.

243
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.840
I'm sure there were a lot of people that did.

244
00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.679
Do you think people viewed your family as very prominent?

245
00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:25.320
I believe that there were a lot of people that did, yes, sir.

246
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:28.279
And did you think that a lot of people viewed you,

247
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.279
and your family is very prominent in the legal community here.

248
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:33.840
I never thought of myself as prominence to.

249
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:36.279
You, if you thought people viewed you that way.

250
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:39.559
At the time, Did I think people viewed me that way?

251
00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:40.919
Yeah, prior to everything happened.

252
00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.519
No, I don't think that. I thought people viewed me

253
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:49.960
as prominent. No, sir, I mean like a big shot. No, sir,

254
00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:50.600
I don't think that.

255
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.000
What about your family that.

256
00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:54.919
My family thought we were big shots? No, sir.

257
00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:00.000
I definitely known family is prominent in this community.

258
00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:05.840
I'm gonna as in, it's not a hard question. Well,

259
00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:10.720
I'm just not sure, you know. I think my family

260
00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.279
was very well thought of. I think my family was respected.

261
00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:17.159
I think my family helped a lot of people.

262
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.120
I'm not challenging you on any of that. I'm just

263
00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.200
getting you to agree what seems to be a basic fact.

264
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:23.080
Would you agree with that?

265
00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:25.159
With what did my family helped a lot of people

266
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.759
and was well thought of the problem If that's what

267
00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:31.240
you mean by that, yes, sir.

268
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.559
And that your family had a very long association with

269
00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:38.639
law enforcement. Yes, sir, And you had a long association

270
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:39.480
with law enforcement.

271
00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:48.679
Yes, yes, by association, I assume you're talking about friendships.

272
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.000
Yeah, but not only not only just friendships, but also

273
00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:57.360
professional as well. Correct as a process, associations with law enforcement.

274
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.440
As a prosecutor or as a civil attorney.

275
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.240
Okay, let's talk about civil Did you have associations with

276
00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:04.080
them in civil case?

277
00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.559
Sure? I mean, as we discussed, a lot of cases

278
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.559
that I handled were wreck cases or might be a

279
00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:12.519
train wreck or track and trailer, but there were a

280
00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.159
lot of highway patrolmen involved, there were a lot of

281
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.000
local law enforcement involved. So yeah, we dealt with a

282
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.600
lot of law enforcement in the civil practice.

283
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.600
And then you also mentioned that you were a prosecutor.

284
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.720
As well, right, I was a volunteer assistant solicitor.

285
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.919
Did you did you or your family or your law

286
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.440
firm ever have events or parties or social affairs in

287
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.519
which the law enforcement community in this area was invited.

288
00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:51.039
I mean, sure, the law firm itself didn't really sponsor

289
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:56.720
things like that, but there would be occasions where one

290
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.039
of us in the law firm, and certainly we we

291
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.919
all had a lot of friends in law enforcement and

292
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.680
they were always invited.

293
00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.960
Okay, And it's a simple point. You had a lot

294
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.440
of friends in law enforcement, your family and you had

295
00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:15.079
a long association with the law enforcement community in this circuit.

296
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:20.200
Is that correct association being friendships and working relationships? Absolutely?

297
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.160
All right, let's talk about being a prosecutor. When did

298
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:26.960
you become an assistant solicitor?

299
00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:30.000
I believe that I became an assistant solicitor when I

300
00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.559
moved from Beaufort to Hampton, so that would have been

301
00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:38.440
September sometime around September nineteen, nineteen ninety eight. Might have

302
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:40.920
been a little bit after that, but sometime.

303
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.759
Did you get a badge when you came an assistant.

304
00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:46.519
Solicitor at some point I did, Yes, sir.

305
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.240
And who gave you that badge?

306
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.240
My father, mister Randolph, Yes, sir.

307
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.720
And over the years, did you prosecute criminal cases as

308
00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:00.359
much as what's going on here today?

309
00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:06.319
Yes, sir, at times I did, And I believe that

310
00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:09.960
I prosecuted from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and one.

311
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:14.720
I believe that I one keep going, I'm sorry, I

312
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.960
mean twenty twenty one, I'm sorry until twenty twenty one.

313
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.559
For nineteen ninety eight twenty twenty one. I believe I

314
00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:25.200
was involved in five jury I believe I believe there

315
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.319
were five trials five trials is the best that I

316
00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.480
can remember. And now my all with my dad. That

317
00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:34.119
was really the purpose of me being assistant solicitor was

318
00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.680
get to spend time with him, do things with him.

319
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:41.160
Sure, and you five jury trials over all that time,

320
00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:43.559
But you had a badge that entire time. Is that correct?

321
00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:45.559
I had a badge for a big part of that time.

322
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.079
Yes, sir, you actually had two badges, right.

323
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.319
I had one badge. But when my granddad became an

324
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:58.720
assistant solicitor for my dad, when my dad became the solicitor,

325
00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:04.440
he had an assistant solicitor's badge. When he passed away,

326
00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:09.720
I had his badge, and that was one of At

327
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.400
some point in time, you were asking somebody about two badges,

328
00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:16.880
and that was the other badge I got you.

329
00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:20.039
You said you did five criminal jury trials as a prosecutor?

330
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:25.759
Correct assisted in those? Or was doing a messr? I

331
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.640
believe I was actually the lead lawyer in one of them.

332
00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:30.319
I helped my dad and the other.

333
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.680
Four Still part of preparing the case, yes, sir, Still

334
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.000
for part part of gathering the evidence and putting it

335
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:37.799
together for trial.

336
00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:41.880
In a criminal case, we didn't do much of a

337
00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:48.720
gathering of the evidence. We took what law enforcement had gathered, but.

338
00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:50.720
But putting any putting it together for the criminal trial. Correct, Yes, sir,

339
00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:55.000
presenting evidence in court, Yes, sir, giving jury argument.

340
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.480
I didn't. I did the close an argument in one

341
00:19:59.480 --> 00:19:59.920
of them. Yes.

342
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.079
Did you ever have any cases that you prosecuted that

343
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.680
when short of a jury trial either plat out or

344
00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:09.039
were dismissed for some reason?

345
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.200
You know, I'm sure that at some point over between

346
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:19.240
nineteen ninety eight and twenty twenty one that I took

347
00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:24.359
some plea, But as we sit here today, I can't

348
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.799
specifically remember that, and I don't ever remember working the

349
00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:30.960
case up for trial that didn't go to trial. But

350
00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.480
I'm sure at some point in time I was involved

351
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.119
in some level on a guilty plea or guilty please.

352
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.680
And you'd agree with me that the civil system man

353
00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:43.119
the criminal system have a lot of differences, correct.

354
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.519
A lot of differences, and a lot of similarities.

355
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.480
And a lot of similarities. And that's where I was

356
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:52.640
going next. The fundamentally, it's about analyzing the evidence, preparing

357
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.680
for trial, presenting that case, and making your argument to

358
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:57.559
the jury correct.

359
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.200
That's a big part of it.

360
00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:07.240
Okay, And would you agree with me that as cases

361
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:12.519
go on, or as you are preparing for trial, that

362
00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.680
you analyze the evidence that's been gathered by law enforcements

363
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:20.960
and present the evidence that that supports your case. Correct,

364
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:22.799
that's just marred of.

365
00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:27.119
It presenting evidence that you deem favorable for your position.

366
00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.960
That you analyze the evidence and then you put in

367
00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:32.880
the evidence that supports your case. It's an ongoing process.

368
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:34.920
You agree with That's that's part of what you do.

369
00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:37.319
And same thing in the civil case. Right as you

370
00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.640
go along, you may have evidence, but you ultimately analyze

371
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.640
that evidence, and some evidence makes the cut and some

372
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:51.839
of it does not. Is that fair to say.

373
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:51.960
As far as what you're trying to POSI I think

374
00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:55.200
that we would agree on that. I think so. I'm

375
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.480
not exactly sure what your question is, but I think

376
00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:58.440
I understand it.

377
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.359
I'm just asking you that as a lawyer, as you've

378
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:05.160
been since nineteen ninety four, is that right?

379
00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:06.119
That's correct?

380
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:09.640
It's a simple question. You analyze the evidence that's been gathered,

381
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.559
whether civil or criminal, and then present that in court.

382
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:13.559
Is that correct?

383
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:16.000
Yes, that's part of it.

384
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:19.160
Is an ongoing process as you prepare for a case.

385
00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:19.960
Is that correct?

386
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.799
An ongoing process as you prepare for in criminal court

387
00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:28.799
for civil court, either one. Well, I mean there's a

388
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:32.160
distinction because in civil court you have the deadlines, and

389
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.880
so you aren't allowed to gather evidence during a trial

390
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:40.440
or a week before a trial, or you know, for instance,

391
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:42.680
if this was a civil trial and we found that

392
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:47.160
on STAR data during the third or fourth week of trial,

393
00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:51.119
you wouldn't be able to use it because you're passed deadlines.

394
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.559
But in a criminal case you are able to use it.

395
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.599
But you would agree that none of that was the

396
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.839
fault of anyone on this side of the table. That

397
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.240
GM initially respond that they had nothing and then responded

398
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:03.359
all of a sudden that they did.

399
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.319
I don't have an opinion, and there's certainly not anything

400
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:08.519
I'm intending to convey.

401
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:10.480
You talk to this jury a lot about that, but

402
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:12.519
you know nothing about that. Particular part of it is

403
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:16.079
that what you're telling us, you talked to the jury

404
00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:18.519
a lot about the GM data, but you're telling me

405
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:23.279
that you're unaware that GM initially responded to law enforcement's

406
00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:25.799
timely request and said they didn't have that, but then

407
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.640
in the course of the trial, all of a sudden

408
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:30.400
came up and said, you know what, we found something

409
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.480
and that's the reason why it arrived late. You're saying

410
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.240
you don't know anything about that after talking to this

411
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:35.079
jury about that.

412
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:37.880
I don't know a single thing about that. I know

413
00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:40.759
that y'all represented that to the court, and I don't

414
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:42.119
have any reason to doubt it.

415
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:45.799
But I don't and you would agree that that's generally

416
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.880
consistent with the telemetry data that the FBI did correct

417
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:51.920
the on Star.

418
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:57.599
Data to own Star. I think the own Star data

419
00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:59.839
and the telemitry data are totally different.

420
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.160
All right. You don't think they're generally consistent with one another.

421
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:03.839
Is that what you're telling this jury.

422
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.240
No, I'm not telling the jury anything about that. I'm

423
00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:10.920
just saying, do I think they're consistent? I think they're

424
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:15.960
telling I think the on Star data tells one gives

425
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:21.400
you one set of information, and the telemitary data gives

426
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.000
you another set of information.

427
00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:32.000
But you don't think they're consistent. I mean, you talk

428
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.759
back to this jury. I think we're struggling on what

429
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:37.920
seems to be a fairly simple point, don't you agree,

430
00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:40.799
Miss Warden.

431
00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:45.519
I'm just trying to answer your question, and so I'm

432
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.599
not trying to be difficult. I just my understanding of

433
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.319
what you're referring to is the telemetry data is when

434
00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:54.359
the car goes into park and drive and that sort

435
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.240
of thing. Is that what you're referring to. Yes, And

436
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.559
the GPS information is telling you where vehic lives on

437
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:06.160
a certain path, correct, in what direction is going? So

438
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:08.720
I think that they're they're just too there are two

439
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:10.160
different types of information.

440
00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:12.839
The question was were they consistent with one another?

441
00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.599
I don't, I guess so, I don't think they contradict

442
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:18.039
each other.

443
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:26.119
All right, thank you? All right? You were the bread

444
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:28.480
winner for your family, correct, for your immediate family?

445
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:30.759
Yes, and.

446
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:36.680
That included obviously from Maggie. Correct. I'm sorry, that included

447
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:42.559
from Maggie. Correct, absolutely, and in large measure for Buster

448
00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:46.440
and Paul as well. Would you agree with that? Did

449
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.279
I I was to bread breadwinner?

450
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:57.039
Yes? No, I was. I was their source of I

451
00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.680
was the source of income from Maggie, Buster and Paul.

452
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:05.240
M Okay, I mean me. I guess as they got older.

453
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:10.039
I mean there's some point where Buster had a job,

454
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:15.079
But I mean I I would still consider myself the

455
00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.519
provider for for them at that time. Kay.

456
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.119
And again that's I'm not there's no trick here. I'm

457
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:22.920
just trying to ask a simple question.

458
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:24.480
Mister Wads, I don't think you. I don't think that

459
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:25.480
was a tricky.

460
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:28.720
So so you were the primary breadwinner, we can agree

461
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:28.960
on that.

462
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:57.039
Yes, sir, I'm go ahead, give me one second, alright,

463
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:58.599
I'm gonna show you what from March.

464
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:04.759
Is uh, States five seventy, and see if you recognize

465
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.240
this particular I I'm even go ahead and take it

466
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:08.680
out of the badge, uh the badging.

467
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:16.839
Alright, sir, you.

468
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:17.400
Know where that is?

469
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:23.359
Yes, sir, that's five seventy one, Yes, sir.

470
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:24.880
All right, and then I'm gonna show you what was

471
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:26.279
in the bag in five seventy. Can you tell me

472
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.119
what about it? I can, all right? What is that

473
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:30.799
which one five seventy?

474
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.240
What is that? Alright? Five seventy one is what I

475
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:35.960
would consider to be my badge?

476
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:36.559
All right?

477
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:38.319
And then what is this one right here which is

478
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:38.960
five seventy?

479
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:41.319
Okay, five seventy would be the one I told you

480
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:46.039
about was my grandfather's badge after he retired, when he

481
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:47.799
became an assistant for my dad.

482
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:50.799
You're right this time, I'd offer States five, seven, one

483
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:58.799
and five seventy in the evenues. Alright, wow, where did

484
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.279
you keep five seventy one? That was your grandfather's.

485
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:07.000
It didn't have a single place that it was kept.

486
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:08.839
You know, where it was recovered by law enforcement?

487
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:10.839
No, sir, would it?

488
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:12.880
Would you dispute if it was recovered out of the

489
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.640
Mercedes you were driving on September fourth day of the

490
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:16.599
side of the road incident.

491
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:17.519
No, I believe that.

492
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:40.960
Not the only place, not a screen place. And five

493
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:43.640
seventy one? Where did you? Where'd you keep this one?

494
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.839
Usually in my car?

495
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:47.039
Where in your car?

496
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:49.200
It could be all of it could be on the

497
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:51.359
dash like you were talking to Mark Ball about. It

498
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:53.000
could be in the center console. It could be in

499
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:54.720
the cup holder, It could be on the seat, be

500
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:59.400
on it usually in the front seat. But in my

501
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:01.359
car is where I tried to keep it.

502
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.720
Right And when you had it in your dash? Would

503
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:06.240
you have it face up or face down?

504
00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:13.119
I didn't have any particular manner in which I stored

505
00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:14.359
it anywhere.

506
00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:16.240
Did There was no rhyme or reason to it. Is

507
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:18.960
what you're telling, Duram, how you had it in the dash.

508
00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:22.480
There may be occasions where I had it in the

509
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:25.319
dash for some particular reason. But there were a lot

510
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:28.039
of times where it probably was in the dash for

511
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:30.839
no particular reason other than that's where I put it,

512
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.319
just like I might put it on the seat or

513
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:34.119
in the cup holder.

514
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:47.799
You said there were particular reasons why you might put

515
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:52.599
it in the dash. What would those reasons be?

516
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:54.559
Mean?

517
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.920
It could be any number of things. If I'm going

518
00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:01.759
somewhere where I want somebody to see it, then I

519
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:09.559
would put it in the dash. If there's another reason

520
00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:12.880
for some somebody to see it, like, for instance, if

521
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.680
I get pulled over, I might have it in the

522
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:17.680
cup holder so an officer could see it when he

523
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:18.240
walked up.

524
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:21.759
Now, why would you do that? Why would you have

525
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:23.160
it in the cupolder? You're not saying you were an

526
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:24.839
official business, are you?

527
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:27.000
No, I'm not saying I'm on official business.

528
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:29.160
Why would you want in a cup holder if you

529
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:29.799
got pulled over?

530
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:41.240
Because I've found that law enforcement oftentimes is friendlier when

531
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:43.240
you're in law enforcement.

532
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:48.160
When you're law enforcement, So you considered yourself law enforcement?

533
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.680
Uh no, sir, I I can't say that I considered

534
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.839
myself law enforcement.

535
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:56.920
Well, you carried a badge on you as a assistant

536
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.359
solicitor for two decades, roughly.

537
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.440
From around ninety eight, so yes, or for two decades.

538
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:07.440
And you would ride with it, sometimes sitting in the

539
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:08.640
front dish facing out.

540
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:09.960
Correct, that's correct.

541
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.559
And you would put it in the cup holders so

542
00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:14.880
that law enforcement would see you if you got pulled over.

543
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.079
Right, that's correct.

544
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:19.640
Okay, So you didn't consider yourself law enforced.

545
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:23.319
I personally didn't consider myself to be law enforcement, no.

546
00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:25.640
Sir, all right, So you were just using having dispatch

547
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.119
to your advantage and taking license with it. Is that correct?

548
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.000
I guess in some circumstances that is accurate.

549
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:44.759
See if you could use it to get away with

550
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:47.839
something correct, your better treatment if you got pulled out.

551
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:54.039
Get better treatment if I got pulled over. I mean

552
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:58.400
that's probably a fair statement. Yeah. If somebody in law

553
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:06.759
enforcement saw that, yeah, i'd say that's true.

554
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.480
Did you have to take an oath when you got

555
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:12.960
that badge?

556
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:17.160
No, sir, you didn't, not that I remember. I don't.

557
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:22.160
I certainly don't recall taking one like so going somewhere

558
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.960
and raising my hands.

559
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.839
Ran and saying I promised to do my duty barely

560
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:30.400
and with integrity. You never had to do.

561
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:34.319
That, Mster Waters. If I did. I sure don't recall it.

562
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.680
I mean it was a very informal process when I

563
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:43.200
became a volunteer assistant solicitor for my dad, and then

564
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:48.039
when I continued with Duffy. I mean, at some point,

565
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:52.319
you know, if I took any oath at all that

566
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:56.839
I can remember, it would be on some paper that

567
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:02.200
I may have had to sign up. I don't specifically

568
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:03.000
remember doing that.

569
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:05.400
All right, let's talk about it. Let's go back to

570
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:14.039
five to seventy one. And on the inside of it,

571
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.000
what are those right there? There's the an ID card

572
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:21.599
with your picture on Uh, yes, sir, that is all right.

573
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.640
And at the top, well, on that top leave it

574
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:25.359
in there, if you would, please? Can you not see it?

575
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:27.039
I can, but I was just gonna see what's on

576
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:31.839
the back, all right, sir? All right?

577
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.599
And it's got your picture on it, got your name

578
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:34.079
on it.

579
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:40.039
Yes, sir, that does have my picture in my name?

580
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:44.839
All right? Put that one back from it, please, all right?

581
00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:48.559
So you want to look at this top one. Look

582
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.079
at the top one. Okay, what what office does it

583
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.559
say that you are on that top one right there?

584
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:54.799
I hope they're at the top.

585
00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:59.839
State of South Carolina solicitor the solicitor of the fourteenth

586
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:04.119
Youjudicial Circuit. It says that I, as Solicitor the fourteenth

587
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:08.719
Judicial Circuit, I do hereby certify that it has your

588
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:12.480
name right, then it has all that data.

589
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:16.159
What position does it say that you're appointed.

590
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:23.320
To as the okay? It says that, as Solicitor of

591
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.679
the fourteen Judicial Circuit, I do certify that Richard A.

592
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:31.639
Murderck was on July first, twenty thirteen, appointed as the

593
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:35.880
deputy solicitor of Allendale, Beaufort, Collington, Hampton, and Jasper Counties

594
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:39.599
in and is authorized to enforce the laws in the

595
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:44.039
fourteenth Judicial Circuit of South Carolina. All about yes, sir,

596
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:46.119
signed by duffy.

597
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.800
Stone, Signed by duffy Stone. So deputy solicitor, is that correct?

598
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.159
I was never a deputy solicitor, mister Waters, That's what

599
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:58.000
that says. But I've never been to a deputy solicitor

600
00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:02.039
unless deputy solicitor is I was a volunteer assistant solicitor.

601
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:04.920
And as far as I know, Sean Thornton has been

602
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.519
the only deputy solicitor that duffy Stone had.

603
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.760
And it's a simple point, it says, deputy silister. But

604
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.559
deputy slister is a higher rank than assistant slister. Correct

605
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:14.119
to your understanding.

606
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:17.320
That's what I think, And and that was Sean Thornton.

607
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:20.280
I've never been deputy solictor, even though that does say that,

608
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.800
all right, I agree with And that was signed by

609
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:26.440
duffy Stone, not by me.

610
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:29.400
I understand. This is what was given to you.

611
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:30.519
That's what was given to you.

612
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:32.480
If there's this whole long thing at the beginning about

613
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:34.400
whether or not you have an association with law the

614
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:36.679
law enforcement community, but this was given to you, not

615
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.960
by your father but by a successor. Correct.

616
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:42.760
Well, no, sir, I believe we got to this because

617
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:44.719
you were talking asking me if I took an oath,

618
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:46.840
and I don't remember taking an oath, and then you

619
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:48.639
started asking me about these things.

620
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:51.639
Okay, And you agree that this card says deputy silister.

621
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:55.159
Right, I agree that card says deputy solicitor.

622
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.880
All right. Would you agree with me that it says

623
00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:05.800
on the back that it is reposing special trust and

624
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:10.639
confidence in your ability, care, prudence and integrity. Is that

625
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:11.679
what it says on the back of this?

626
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.280
I mean, if you're no, sir, I mean I trust

627
00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:17.800
if you're reading that off the back of that, I

628
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:50.639
assume that it does. You were reading off of the

629
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:53.280
one that the one that Duffy Stone gave me.

630
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:55.719
Correct, Yeah, and then the one at the tie. Where

631
00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.519
did that one come from? Wanting to bring it back

632
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:00.000
to you, No, sir, I think I can see it.

633
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:04.079
That would be. That's okay. I mean I know what

634
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:05.719
it is. I looked at it when you hinted it

635
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:09.360
to me. So the card on the bottom is what

636
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.960
I got from Duffy Stone. The one on the top,

637
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:15.239
and the one on the top should give you a

638
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:23.880
better There we go, all right. So the one on

639
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:28.880
the top was what came from my dad when he

640
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:31.320
was solicitor. The one on the bottoms what came from

641
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:36.480
Duffy Stone when he was solicitor. And Duffy Stone took

642
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:40.519
over after my dad retired in two thousand and six.

643
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:46.360
Duffy Stone filled my dad's unexpired the rest of his

644
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:50.360
unexpired four year term, much like my dad filled my granddad.

645
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:52.519
So and then Duffy became the solicitor.

646
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:56.000
Did you ever have lights in your vehicle.

647
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:01.800
In the particular vehicle, now, yes, sir, I did.

648
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:03.199
Was that a government vehicle?

649
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:04.719
I know, sir, it was not.

650
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:08.480
When did you have lights like blue lights and stuff?

651
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:09.880
Yes, sir, I had some blue lights.

652
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:12.519
When did you have blue lights? And let me remember

653
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:16.039
you did five cases over twenty years and you had

654
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:18.000
blue lights in your vehicle. But it was a probably

655
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.079
it was your private vehicle, correct, well, it was.

656
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:23.960
The vehicle that I drove. It was law firm owned.

657
00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:26.159
Vehicle, the law firm's owned vehicle. So how'd you get

658
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:27.000
blue lights in there?

659
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:28.320
I had them installed?

660
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:29.480
And who installed them?

661
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:38.519
I believe that Eddie Gibson installed them?

662
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:39.079
And who is that?

663
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:46.320
He's the guy who apparently does blue light work for

664
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:50.559
most of the sheriff's departments in the fourteenth circuit and

665
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:52.599
a lot of the police departments.

666
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:56.639
And did you when did you have that installed? You

667
00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:00.440
recall one vehicle or more than one, devil, I'll start

668
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:00.639
with that.

669
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:05.000
I believe I had it, and I believe I had

670
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:06.400
blue lights in one vehicle.

671
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:08.320
And when did you have that installed? Do you think?

672
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:09.159
I'm not sure?

673
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:12.079
It would have been five years, ten years?

674
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:14.800
Now Here here I can give you a timeframe the

675
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:19.880
vehicle that I was in on that that that got

676
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:24.400
uh taken in on June seventh. I got that vehicle

677
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.039
sometime around late December or January, so I'd had it

678
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:32.119
for six months. I would have had the previous vehicle

679
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:36.760
for five years. That's how long we kept vehicles in

680
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:38.199
the law firm, So I would have had it for

681
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:42.559
five years, and it and and sometime during that five

682
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:44.320
year period, I had lights installed.

683
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:49.800
Did you, as the sheriff of the time, if you

684
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:50.280
could do that?

685
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:50.800
I did.

686
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:52.679
Who was that?

687
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:58.599
I believe it was TC Small's and I believe in

688
00:39:58.880 --> 00:39:59.440
Collington that.

689
00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:02.679
Was Andy and Andy Strickland, and I.

690
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:04.519
Believe in Allendale it was Tom Carter.

691
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:10.920
Were you friends with Andy Strickland?

692
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:15.639
Yeah, I was friends with Andy Strickland.

693
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:18.280
And you said, Hey, I'm gonna get some blue lights

694
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:20.760
and all my vehicle. And he said that's cool, or

695
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:21.719
words to that effect.

696
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:25.400
I mean, that doesn't sound like the words that he

697
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:27.079
would have used or I would have used. But I

698
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:29.559
certainly asked him, and he certainly said it was okay.

699
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:32.960
It was okay, alright, along with Sheriff Smalls, and I

700
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.880
believe Sheriff Carter. I'm not positive about Sheriff Carter, but

701
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:36.320
I believe.

702
00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:40.880
So letna show you just real quick what's been marked

703
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:44.360
in State's five h seven. See if you reconize that.

704
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:54.320
I believe this is my suburban, Yeah, this is this

705
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:59.880
is my suburban. That that y'all have, kay?

706
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.159
Was that? Does that look like where your badge was

707
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:03.599
on the day of the incident?

708
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:06.840
I have no idea.

709
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:08.400
You don't recall another.

710
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:11.239
No, but I don't take issue with the fact that

711
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.920
it's I don't take issue with the fact that it's there.

712
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:17.360
If that's up, you know, if that's what how they

713
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:18.000
say it was.

714
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:21.280
Now let's talk about what we just heard.

715
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:25.519
Water starts off easy enough, kind of gives a history

716
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.960
of the Murdall family, and there's a reason for that.

717
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:33.440
The hope here is that the jury will see, hey,

718
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.800
he's not like one of us. He's above us, at

719
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:41.280
least he thinks he is. Waters even brings up a

720
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:45.800
large lawsuit as a matter of fact, several large lawsuits

721
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:49.119
that Alex wins in the attempt there is to paint

722
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:52.079
a picture of wealth that no one on that jury

723
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:56.960
can relate to. Even asking Alex directly if he thought

724
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:01.079
his family was prominent, but I can't take anything away

725
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:05.320
from Alex. He answered those questions pretty damn good, and

726
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:12.280
with every question. Waters asked every question Alex would start

727
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:17.320
answering by staring directly at the jury, turning is almost

728
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:21.480
his whole body. It's really something watching these two battle.

729
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:25.239
He also brought up that solicitor's badge and the reason

730
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.360
for that is twofold. First, when he brought it up,

731
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:32.360
remember that badge was not Alex's badge. It was his

732
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:37.199
dad's badge and his grandfather's badge. But Alex would leave

733
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:43.920
it on the dashboard of his truck and make sure

734
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.320
it was visible, and he was wanting to garner special

735
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:50.800
privileges with that. Waters made a big point of bringing

736
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:53.719
that up because he's trying to prove that Alex Murdall

737
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:57.239
has always kind of skated by and got special privileges, right.

738
00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.760
And the second reason he brought that up as Alex

739
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:03.480
had that hanging off his belt when he accessed the

740
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:07.800
hospital after that boat wreck where Mallory Beach was killed,

741
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:12.079
and he wasn't a solicitor at that time. So it

742
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:16.960
speaks to the lengths he will go to just masterful

743
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:19.000
stuff right there.

744
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:21.880
So we'll continue on with this next clip.

745
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:28.280
You testified some about the boat case and we'll talk

746
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:33.400
more about that. Uh, the boat rack case. Can we

747
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:34.920
agree that. That's what we're talking about when we say the

748
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:37.400
boat case. February twenty nineteen.

749
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:41.840
Well, there's two things. You you referring to the civil

750
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:44.840
case when you say the boat case. But when I

751
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.079
think about the boat case, I think about the charges

752
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:52.039
that y'all brought against paupaulk So, but there also the

753
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:52.679
civil case.

754
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.880
All right, Paul Paul. That's what that was your name

755
00:43:57.960 --> 00:43:58.519
name for Paul.

756
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.760
I mean that I called him Paupaul. Maggie called him Paul. Paul.

757
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:11.480
Bus calls ing Papaul. Roro calls in Papaul who that's

758
00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:12.280
Rogan Gibson.

759
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:19.760
And this jury, of course, has heard multiple recorded statements

760
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:21.639
of you during the course of this. Did you ever

761
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:23.679
refer to Paul as Paul Paul during that?

762
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.400
I don't know.

763
00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:27.760
You don't. Do you recall.

764
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:33.079
How I refer to I can say Paul if you

765
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:33.639
prefer that.

766
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:35.480
No, you can call him whatever you want. I'm just

767
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:37.760
asking you if you ever called him that during the

768
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.440
course of that entire investigation, or is that also the

769
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:42.480
first time today, at least publicly, is.

770
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.360
Today the first time I've called my son Paul Pau Paul? No, sir,

771
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.440
that is not correct.

772
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:49.519
Have you ever called him that on all the recorded

773
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:50.800
statements that this jury is heard.

774
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:53.480
I don't know you ever called.

775
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:58.079
Rogan ro rolled him recording statements all the time and

776
00:44:58.119 --> 00:44:59.880
the recorded statements, did you ever call him that?

777
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:02.559
I don't know. I mean I called him Rogan also,

778
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:08.639
So I don't know. But I'm happy to call him Rogan,

779
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:10.239
and I'm happy to call Paul Paul.

780
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.159
All right, Well, let's talk about and I'll be I'll

781
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:18.079
be specific with the boat race wreck criminal case and

782
00:45:18.119 --> 00:45:22.159
the boat wreck civil case. Okay, that's fair, Yes, sir,

783
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.599
all right, we've talked a little bit about your badge.

784
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:27.840
Did you have your badge with you on the night

785
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:28.840
of the boat wreck?

786
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:36.519
On the night of the the night of the boat wreck,

787
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:37.400
did I have it with me?

788
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:41.280
When did you go to the hospital that night?

789
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:43.119
I did go to the hospital that night.

790
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:44.639
Did you have it with a U? Then?

791
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.920
I don't know, but I don't believe so. But I

792
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:51.079
really don't know.

793
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.760
I sir, but when you went to the hospital on

794
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.159
the night of the boat wreck, were you acting in

795
00:45:55.239 --> 00:45:56.960
any official capacity.

796
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.639
The night of the when I went to the hospital,

797
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:02.119
was acting an official capacity?

798
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:08.400
Yes, we'll shoe what's been marked as States five sixty nine.

799
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:11.559
And do you recognize a person on the right in

800
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:16.679
that image? No, sir, you don't recognize that.

801
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:19.719
I don't recognize him.

802
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.719
No, I'm asking about that me? Is that you? Yeah?

803
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:24.880
It looks like me? All right? What's hanging out of

804
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:26.239
your pocket in playing goog?

805
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:27.519
Looks like a badge?

806
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:30.679
You didn't recall that until I just showed that picture?

807
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:31.559
No, sir, I did not.

808
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:35.039
You're right all for States five sixty nine in the evidence? Okay,

809
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:40.360
go ad minute, that's you in the white shirt. Is

810
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:40.840
that right?

811
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:43.880
Yes, sir, it is?

812
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:47.079
And this is the badge hanging out of your pocket?

813
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:49.039
You remember which is that? Correct?

814
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:50.199
Looks to be? Yes, sir?

815
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:51.840
Which badge is that? Which one of the two? Do

816
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:52.199
you remember?

817
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:54.119
N You can't tell from here?

818
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:56.920
Okay? And why'd you have it hanging out of your

819
00:46:56.960 --> 00:46:57.519
pocket like that?

820
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.119
I don't remember having that. I don't know.

821
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:01.159
You don't remember that.

822
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:04.159
I don't remember that. No, sir.

823
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:06.360
Did you generally walk around with your badge hanging out.

824
00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:09.679
Of your pocket generally speaking?

825
00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:12.000
No, sir, I did not, or only when you wanted

826
00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:18.199
some advantage from it? Did you want some advantage from

827
00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:18.519
wearing it?

828
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.440
Like that did I hanging out in my pocket when

829
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:22.559
I wanted an advantage?

830
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.960
Yes, I.

831
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:31.159
May have. I certainly may have a right.

832
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.320
What advantage did you want when? Then?

833
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:39.000
I don't even recall this, mister Waters, But if I

834
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:43.480
was wanting some advantage as you say it, I guess

835
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:46.679
and I don't remember this, but I guess I would

836
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:51.599
want uh You know, as I said, a badge has

837
00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:56.920
a warming effect with other law enforcement, and so if

838
00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:00.039
I was seeking any advantage, as you say, then I

839
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:01.280
guess that would be what it was.

840
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:04.239
Do you ever want to be the solictener?

841
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:06.320
Yeah, there was a time period where I did.

842
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:11.079
Did you ever want to be the solicitor?

843
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:13.400
Yeah, there was a time period when I absolutely did.

844
00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:15.360
When was that, uh.

845
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:23.880
A prior to around the time prior to my dad retiring.

846
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.519
Prior to two thousand and six, Yes, sir? How long

847
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:31.480
did you explore that?

848
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:38.679
I mean, I really I wanted to be I wanted

849
00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:45.800
to be a solicitor for a long time. But you know,

850
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:53.159
at the time when my dad retired, I was already

851
00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:59.760
struggling with pills and I knew I couldn't do it.

852
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:03.719
In two thousand and six, yes, sir, And we'll talk

853
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:05.079
more about the pills and the bit that you say

854
00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:07.360
you're already struggling with pills in two thousand and six. Correct,

855
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:12.599
that's correct. But over that next fifteen years you still

856
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:15.840
were able to maintain a lucrative law practice. Would you

857
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:16.400
agree with that?

858
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:17.760
Yes, sir, And you've.

859
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:21.440
Already testified that all your law partners had no idea

860
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:26.079
of this pill problem that you had all that time.

861
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:32.760
Correct, I'm testifying that I believe, In fact, I'm certain

862
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:38.840
that none of my partners knew I had an addiction.

863
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:46.039
That night of the boat rack, you say you don't

864
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:48.320
remember putting your badge out, correct.

865
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:51.360
No, I don't remember. I don't even remember having my badge.

866
00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:54.199
Do you remember going around talking to the kids the

867
00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:55.519
other kids are on the boat.

868
00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:58.559
Yeah, I talked to some of them.

869
00:49:58.800 --> 00:49:59.880
You remember going to do that?

870
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:00.400
Yes?

871
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:02.800
Then was your badge hanging out when you did that

872
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:03.239
as well?

873
00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:06.360
You know, I wouldn't think so, mister Waters, But like

874
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:09.559
I said, I didn't, I don't think so.

875
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:12.880
Right, So it just comes naturally to put your badge

876
00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:14.960
out on something like this that generally remember why you

877
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:15.239
did that?

878
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.679
No, I don't even remember having my badge, and I

879
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:22.639
specifically know that I didn't use the badge, you know,

880
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:24.840
did I mean to do this. I'm not saying that

881
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:27.559
I didn't, but I don't know if I was putting

882
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:29.760
it in my pocket and the flap, you know, you

883
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:34.719
noticed that that flap is not velcrow down. I don't know.

884
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.519
I don't have a specific memory of that. And I

885
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.880
never went around, you know, acting like I was on

886
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:41.880
official business.

887
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:44.519
So you're saying it might be an accident that your

888
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:45.639
badge was hanging out there.

889
00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:48.800
I'm saying that I have no memory of that whatsoever.

890
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:51.320
Right, well, did you ever you never use these badges as.

891
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:52.119
Like a wallet? Right?

892
00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:52.679
No?

893
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:53.559
I did?

894
00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:54.199
You did?

895
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:54.760
I did?

896
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:57.159
So you're saying you had your your credit cards and

897
00:50:57.199 --> 00:50:58.039
all your stuff in there.

898
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:00.519
No, no, sir, I'm not saying that, and I'm not

899
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:03.000
saying that on that night. You just asked me if

900
00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:05.159
I ever used it as a wallet, And there were

901
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:06.679
times when I used it as a wallet.

902
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:08.559
Were you're using it as a wallet that night?

903
00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:11.559
I don't remember, but I don't think so. I didn't

904
00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:13.760
use it as a wallet very often, and I didn't

905
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.880
use it as a wallet for very long when I

906
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.360
did use it as a wallet.

907
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:18.679
So let's say if we can get back to what

908
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:20.400
we agree on. So you would agree that you had

909
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:23.440
to make a conscious decision to grab that badge and

910
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:26.119
when you went into the hospital. Correct, would you agree

911
00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:26.360
with that?

912
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:30.559
Yeah, at some point I had to make a conscious

913
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:31.639
decision pick it up.

914
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:34.280
Okay. But you're saying you don't know if you hung

915
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:36.280
it out like that on purpose while you're talking to

916
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:38.639
that law enforcement officer, or if it's just an accident

917
00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:40.800
that is hanging out of your pocket in full view

918
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:41.280
of everyone.

919
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:44.280
Well, I am saying that because that is not how

920
00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:48.239
I would normally carry a badge. And even if I

921
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:51.920
wanted to give somebody an impression to me, that's got

922
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.119
kind of an obnoxious look to it. That is not

923
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:57.360
something that uh, I mean, that's not something I would

924
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.000
typically do. But I may have done it that night.

925
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:01.199
I have no memory of.

926
00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:05.000
That, Okay, all right, So you're saying that just could

927
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:06.719
be an accident that is hanging out like that.

928
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.000
I'm saying it could be or I could have put

929
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:11.320
it there like that, all right, I don't remember.

930
00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:13.199
Did you generally just walk around with it in your

931
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.079
pocket or was you only carry it when you wanted

932
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:17.880
to use it for something?

933
00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:22.000
Now, I wouldn't generally carry it around in my pocket

934
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:22.880
just any time.

935
00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:27.079
Okay, all right, all right, so we got the badge

936
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.519
that maybe accidentally hang out of your pocket. You won't

937
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:31.199
conceive that you did that purpose.

938
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:35.199
For I mean, mister Waters, if you want me to

939
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:37.239
say I did that on purpose, I don't have a

940
00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:40.639
problem with that. I'm saying, I don't remember that, all right.

941
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:43.960
So can I tell you that I did that on purpose? No, sir,

942
00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:48.360
I can't. Can I say that that this happened by accident, No, sir,

943
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:51.119
I can't. What I can say is I don't remember it.

944
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:55.800
And that's not how I would normally. That's just not

945
00:52:55.880 --> 00:53:01.679
how I would normally. You know. That's that's just not

946
00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:05.679
That's not something I did. That's not a normal thing.

947
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:06.440
So I don't know.

948
00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:10.079
Okay, that's fine. What say to this jury that there

949
00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:13.239
was any intention or purpose to you doing that at

950
00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:15.079
the hospital on the night of the boat ride.

951
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:19.000
I'm saying, I don't remember using that badge, and I

952
00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:24.159
specifically remember, you know. I'm sorry. Go ahead, and you.

953
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:27.679
Ask youically remember what that like.

954
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:29.960
When I when I went into the room with the kids,

955
00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:32.280
that I pulled my badge out and I know that

956
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:33.159
I did not do that.

957
00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:35.119
No, because it was on your pocket like that.

958
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:38.519
Correct, it's on my pocket like that, right then?

959
00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:42.840
Did you use that to get into areas that shouldn't

960
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:45.079
be accessed by a non official personnel?

961
00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:49.719
Absolutely not. I mean there was nowhere that I went

962
00:53:49.800 --> 00:54:02.159
that that was not truly public domain. I mean, basically

963
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:04.760
the places that I went to were when I got there.

964
00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.079
I went to Pau Paul. When I left Paul Paul,

965
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:10.400
I went to Morgan Dowdy, who was like a daughter

966
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:14.320
to Maggie and I had dated Paul for a long time.

967
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:20.360
And I went to Morgan. Morgan had an injury to

968
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:23.079
her hand that was that was bad, and she was

969
00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:29.360
very upset about Mallory and they were working on her.

970
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.480
So I left her room. I went back to Paupaul.

971
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:34.960
At some point in time. I know that I went

972
00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:37.039
to Connor's room, and I believe those are the only

973
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:41.119
rooms I went to. But again I don't, I can't.

974
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:42.840
I can't tell you that with certainty.

975
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:44.360
While you're wearing that badge like that, did you tell

976
00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:46.519
any of the kids who are in the boat ragging

977
00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:47.880
now to cooperate with law enforcement?

978
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:53.440
I never told anybody not to cooperate with law enforcement,

979
00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:57.199
whether I had a badge hanging out my pants, didn't

980
00:54:57.199 --> 00:55:01.079
have a badge, or any point time did I tell

981
00:55:01.159 --> 00:55:03.480
anybody don't cooperate with law enforcement.

982
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:05.840
Did you become aware in March or April or May

983
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:10.639
of twenty one, twenty twenty one, shortly before June that

984
00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:13.599
an investigation into the investigation of that night had begun

985
00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:15.280
as well as your conduct.

986
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:30.280
Yes, I did learn. I did learn of that. I

987
00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:35.599
don't know the status of that investigation being it. I've

988
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:38.360
been charged with so many things and haven't been charged

989
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:43.079
with that. I'm assuming that there may not be charges.

990
00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:44.880
Whether or not you were aware that that had begun

991
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:46.800
in the spring of twenty twenty one.

992
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:53.400
Yes, sir, I was aware. Well, at some point in

993
00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:56.079
time I became aware of it was that the sprint?

994
00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:59.039
Was it, you know, February, March, April. I know it

995
00:55:59.079 --> 00:56:07.519
was after after and I know it was after that night,

996
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:10.000
and it was.

997
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:15.599
Before June seventh, before June seventh.

998
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:23.440
I'm pretty sure that I already I'm pretty sure that

999
00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:24.480
I already knew.

1000
00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:30.360
That Strickland you know what happened to him?

1001
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:32.000
Do I know what happened to him when.

1002
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:36.639
How he lost his job, that's sheriff.

1003
00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:46.239
I believe that when he was charged. I can't I

1004
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:50.320
don't know if he resigned or he was suspended.

1005
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:55.239
Okay, do you remember if that was a few months

1006
00:56:55.239 --> 00:56:58.960
prior to you becoming aware of an investigation and to

1007
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:03.840
the investigation of the spoatcase, including you do I know

1008
00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:10.599
what any Strickling was charged and lost his job? Was

1009
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:13.679
that a few months prior to you becoming aware of

1010
00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:16.400
the investigation and to this incident that's on the screen.

1011
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:24.159
A few months prior. I don't really know this for

1012
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:28.000
a fact, but I believe, as I'm sitting here today,

1013
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:31.360
I believe that Andy was charged back in the fall.

1014
00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:40.440
And like I said, we learned about when I've testified

1015
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:45.960
about when I understood there was an investigation into whether

1016
00:57:46.039 --> 00:57:53.840
or not I was acting in a public manner or

1017
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:59.000
whatever whatever it was, y'all were investigating public corruption or

1018
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:04.480
so if it was a couple of months, if it

1019
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:07.440
was a month or two when Andy Strickland got charged,

1020
00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:13.400
then I mean, if you showed me that, I'd be surprised,

1021
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:15.960
because I think it was. I think he was charged

1022
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:16.440
before that.

1023
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:20.039
But you're this was a friend of yours, correct, the

1024
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:22.280
guy who you asked if you could put lights in

1025
00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:23.519
your car in a private vehicle?

1026
00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:29.440
Correct, Well, I mean Andy, Yeah. I considered Andy a friend.

1027
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:32.119
I considered TC a friend, and I considered Tom Carter

1028
00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:34.239
a friend. Sure, all of whom I asked if I

1029
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:37.559
could put lights in the vehicle?

1030
00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:38.719
All right?

1031
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:41.800
And so yes, sir, I mean and I considered Andy

1032
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:42.199
a friend.

1033
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:44.440
Would you at least agree with me that in at

1034
00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:49.000
least the fall of twenty twenty, your friend Andy Strickland

1035
00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:54.400
was indicted and lost his job for a financial in

1036
00:58:54.400 --> 00:59:04.360
corruption investigation Projectionian irrelevant response, Jer Honor, I think there's

1037
00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:08.159
a link between his knowledge of that and what he's

1038
00:59:08.199 --> 00:59:11.199
admitted that there was an investigation going on in the

1039
00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:13.400
months prior to the murders.

1040
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:22.280
I found further, I mean, the question is something about

1041
00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:23.760
Andy Strickland being indicted.

1042
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:29.280
I just don't see the relevant trin I sustain the adduction.

1043
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:36.360
All right, We can at least agree that you were

1044
00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:39.320
aware prior to the murders that there was this investigation, correct,

1045
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:43.280
the one on the screen, the one related to the boat,

1046
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:45.360
the investigation into the boat case.

1047
00:59:48.679 --> 00:59:52.400
Was I aware that y'all have started an investigation into

1048
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:58.880
what I did in the hospital prior to the June seventh. Yes,

1049
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:05.800
I believe that to be all right. And if it

1050
01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:08.360
wasn't before that, it was shortly after it.

1051
01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:15.159
You I testified that you've had a pil addiction for

1052
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:18.639
approximately twenty years, correct.

1053
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:22.159
I think that's I think that's about right.

1054
01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:28.960
And so when did you start stealing money from clients?

1055
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:33.079
How long did it take before he started doing that?

1056
01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:37.719
I'm not sure when the first time I did that is.

1057
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:39.880
You don't know, no, sir, not I was going back

1058
01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:40.679
and thought about that.

1059
01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:42.719
Oh, sure, I've thought about it. But to be able

1060
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:44.400
to sit here, I mean, you got to understand, I've

1061
01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:47.719
been in rehab and I've been in jail, and I

1062
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:54.039
don't have access. You know, all my telephone calls were

1063
01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:58.119
put on the media, so I haven't had a lot

1064
01:00:58.119 --> 01:00:59.960
of phone access. I haven't had a lot of acts.

1065
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:03.719
So as we sit here today, I cannot tell you

1066
01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:06.440
the exact time. I don't deny that I did it,

1067
01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:08.400
but I can't tell you the exact time that I

1068
01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:09.079
first did it.

1069
01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:11.159
And you're you told this jury that's the cause of

1070
01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:12.239
your financial problems.

1071
01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:16.800
Did I say that the.

1072
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:20.039
Eurospiate addiction was the cause of your financial problem.

1073
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:21.199
It was certainly a cause.

1074
01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:23.440
Yes, a cause, not the only cause, though, correct.

1075
01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:25.440
I know I wouldn't think it was the only cause.

1076
01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:28.280
But yeah, it was certainly a cause.

1077
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:32.039
You were called testimony in this courtroom about how you

1078
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:35.320
had some land deals go bad around the time of

1079
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:38.199
the recession in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine. Sure,

1080
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:41.000
and you recalled testimony from your law partners in this

1081
01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:47.440
courtroom that you had some big cases that they thought

1082
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:49.199
cured those issues. Correct.

1083
01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:50.920
I heard them say that, Yes, sir.

1084
01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:51.760
Do you disagree with that?

1085
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:55.039
Do I disagree with what they thought? No? I mean

1086
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:57.599
I don't have any reason disagree if that was true

1087
01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:03.239
that they thought that my partners thought that that I

1088
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:06.920
gotten pasted my financial difficulties. I have no reason to

1089
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:09.400
dispute that, mister Waters. I'm not trying to frustrate you.

1090
01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:10.599
Just what they thought true?

1091
01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:16.280
Did I was past my financial difficulties? Is that the question?

1092
01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:17.360
Yes, that's the question.

1093
01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:20.840
Was it true that I was past my financial difficulties?

1094
01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:28.039
I mean, they were certainly better after that, But I mean, no,

1095
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:30.519
I don't I don't know. I don't think I was

1096
01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:31.480
past them.

1097
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:34.320
No, sir, all right, what was the first big case

1098
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:36.119
after the recession that you had.

1099
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:40.320
Mister Waters. I can't tell you what the first big

1100
01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:44.760
case was. Remember what date?

1101
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:50.039
All right, well, let's go with the Pinkney case. Do

1102
01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:50.960
you remember when that was?

1103
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:55.079
I remember generally speaking, when it was, Yes, sir.

1104
01:02:55.159 --> 01:02:57.760
What year was that? Twenty eleven? Would you would you

1105
01:02:57.800 --> 01:02:58.320
just be at.

1106
01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:01.159
That twenty eleven? What when it ended?

1107
01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:04.480
When you got recoveries in that case?

1108
01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:07.679
I mean, if you're looking at something that tells me

1109
01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:10.400
that I have no reason to dispute that. But I

1110
01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:12.760
can't remember off the top of my head. But that's

1111
01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:14.519
certainly in the timeframe.

1112
01:03:16.159 --> 01:03:16.639
We'll go through.

1113
01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:20.840
Let's do it, mister Waters. Like I said, I take

1114
01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:23.000
you at that. I just don't know off the top

1115
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.960
of my head. All right, I don't have a reason

1116
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:26.719
to dispute that.

1117
01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:28.719
I'm gonna show you what it's been A minute into

1118
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:34.199
evidence A state's three three one. Let's go it with

1119
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:42.280
actually three three two three three three and three three four?

1120
01:03:42.440 --> 01:03:52.559
Do you recognize those documents? Just generally? Do you recognize it?

1121
01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:55.159
I do, all right, I'll just what are those those

1122
01:03:55.159 --> 01:03:56.880
are disperstment chiefs? Can I happen back.

1123
01:03:56.760 --> 01:03:59.079
Please, yes, sir, just give me one say.

1124
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:00.280
Yeah, take take time.

1125
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:07.280
He was trying to see which ones. I mean, there's

1126
01:04:07.320 --> 01:04:09.519
some things about it and I'm curious about.

1127
01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:15.480
But yeah, we'll talk about that, all right.

1128
01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:22.840
Let's talk about uh, let's start with Natasha Thomas. Do

1129
01:04:22.920 --> 01:04:26.280
you remember her? How old was she when she became

1130
01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:27.480
your client?

1131
01:04:27.679 --> 01:04:28.960
I'm not sure she was young.

1132
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:29.599
She was a.

1133
01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:32.679
Teenager, I'm not sure, but I know she was young.

1134
01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:33.679
She was underage?

1135
01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:36.000
Correct, Yes, she was under age.

1136
01:04:36.079 --> 01:04:38.639
I do believe that, all right? In fact, I know that.

1137
01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:42.159
And can you tell me what the u she was

1138
01:04:42.199 --> 01:04:46.440
injured in this wreck with in an automobile rack? Correct?

1139
01:04:48.039 --> 01:04:48.320
Yes?

1140
01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:52.000
And the company Michelin that was one of the defendants

1141
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:54.000
for an alleged tire issue? Is that correct?

1142
01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:54.840
That is correct?

1143
01:04:54.920 --> 01:04:57.280
All right? And do you remember how much Natasha Thomas

1144
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.840
got in that particular and I can show it to

1145
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:02.760
you on three three four? Do you remember how much thigure.

1146
01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:05.760
Out as a groove settlement? I believe it shows two

1147
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:06.719
million dollars.

1148
01:05:06.440 --> 01:05:08.800
Two million dollars, all right? And how much were your

1149
01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:12.039
or pmpd's fees that would be attributed to you? And

1150
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:22.400
that out of that two million dollars eight one hundred

1151
01:05:22.480 --> 01:05:25.880
thousand dollars, eight hundred thousand dollars, yes, sir, all right?

1152
01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:28.119
Excuse me, yes, sir, all right. And so that would

1153
01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:30.880
be eight hundred thousand dollars in fees that would get

1154
01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:33.639
attributed to you. That has nothing to do with the

1155
01:05:33.639 --> 01:05:39.000
money that you subsequently stole from my teenage. Correct.

1156
01:05:41.719 --> 01:05:44.880
The eight hundred thousand is different from money that I stole. Yes,

1157
01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:46.559
that's correct, all right.

1158
01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:48.760
So you got eight hundred thousand dollars attributed to you

1159
01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:51.920
with the firm, but that was not enough. You also

1160
01:05:52.039 --> 01:05:54.239
stole money from that teenager. Is that correct?

1161
01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:55.320
That is correct?

1162
01:05:55.400 --> 01:05:57.599
All right? When you did that, did you sit down

1163
01:05:57.639 --> 01:05:59.800
with her much as you sat down with us jury

1164
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:02.719
and explain to her what was going on while you

1165
01:06:02.719 --> 01:06:05.679
were stealing her money?

1166
01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:09.039
That would be the normal process, but I certainly don't

1167
01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:10.679
remember specifically doing it.

1168
01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:12.719
I would be the normal process, correct.

1169
01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:14.760
That would be It may be a little different with

1170
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:17.519
a teenager, but certainly, I mean.

1171
01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:20.239
You would sit down with them across the table and

1172
01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:22.119
go through these documents, correct.

1173
01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:27.119
If that would not be abnormal?

1174
01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:29.400
Yes, sir, all right, And then you tried you would

1175
01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:31.639
explain to them what was going on and how they

1176
01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:33.599
were getting everything they were entitled to. Correct.

1177
01:06:34.519 --> 01:06:36.320
If I was the one doing it, yes, sir, and you.

1178
01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:37.960
Would look them in the eye while you did that.

1179
01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:41.719
Correct, It wouldn't be unusual for me to look them

1180
01:06:41.719 --> 01:06:42.440
into eye.

1181
01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:44.800
While you were doing some fast talking to a teenager. Correct.

1182
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.199
I certainly was not telling her the truth. I don't

1183
01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:52.519
know if I was talking fast or slow, but I

1184
01:06:52.599 --> 01:06:53.639
wasn't telling the truth.

1185
01:06:54.039 --> 01:06:57.480
All right. Well, you ultimately convinced her that there was

1186
01:06:57.519 --> 01:07:00.000
nothing amiss here, right while you were stealing her money. Correct.

1187
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:03.239
I don't know if I convinced her that nothing was

1188
01:07:03.239 --> 01:07:09.199
amiss or I misled her. But I admit candidly in

1189
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:11.960
all of these cases, mister Waters, that I took money

1190
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.199
that was not mine and I shouldn't have done it.

1191
01:07:16.679 --> 01:07:19.760
I hate the fact that I did it. I'm embarrassed

1192
01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:24.159
by it. I'm embarrassed for my son, I'm embarrassed from

1193
01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:28.280
my family. And I don't dispute that I did it.

1194
01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:31.039
I understand that, and you understand that we have to

1195
01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:34.800
ask about these things because we've heard about it in

1196
01:07:34.840 --> 01:07:37.880
a very academic, paperwork manner. But every single one of

1197
01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:39.800
these you had to sit down and meet somebody in

1198
01:07:39.880 --> 01:07:44.440
the eye and convince them that you were on their

1199
01:07:44.559 --> 01:07:47.159
side when you were not correct. That's what you did

1200
01:07:47.239 --> 01:07:48.239
in every single one.

1201
01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:51.039
Of these I mean every time, answer my.

1202
01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:53.000
Question yes or no, and then you can explain. I'll

1203
01:07:53.039 --> 01:07:54.199
let you explain all day long.

1204
01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:56.159
Well, I mean no, sir, that may or may not

1205
01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:58.239
be true. And mister Waters, just to try to get

1206
01:07:58.239 --> 01:07:58.920
through this quicker.

1207
01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:01.639
I know you want to get through a quicker, but

1208
01:08:01.679 --> 01:08:03.199
we're not, so answer the question.

1209
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:08.360
Plus, what I admit is that I misled them, I

1210
01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:12.199
did wrong, and that I stole their money. Now this

1211
01:08:12.960 --> 01:08:14.440
is something. What's the date on that one?

1212
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:16.039
I'll bring it back to.

1213
01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:19.359
Well, you can tell me. I trust you to tell

1214
01:08:19.399 --> 01:08:20.000
me accurately.

1215
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:23.279
Well, you know, it's kind of funny. It doesn't have

1216
01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:25.119
the date on it. But I'll let you take a

1217
01:08:25.119 --> 01:08:30.119
look out. All right.

1218
01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:32.000
I'm just looking at the date of a check. So

1219
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:36.079
that's December twenty, twenty eleven. So that a ballpark, So

1220
01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:38.880
that's twelve years ago. For me to sit here and

1221
01:08:38.920 --> 01:08:42.079
tell you specifically that I remember sitting down and talking

1222
01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:44.840
with Natasha Thomas, I can't tell you that, but what

1223
01:08:44.920 --> 01:08:47.680
I can tell you, and I can tell you that

1224
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:52.079
I didn't do right by Natasha Thomas. I took money

1225
01:08:52.119 --> 01:08:55.640
from Natasha Thomas that didn't belong to me, and I

1226
01:08:55.760 --> 01:09:00.640
was wrong for doing that. And I admit that, all right.

1227
01:09:01.920 --> 01:09:04.159
And I know, mister Murdo, that you would like for

1228
01:09:04.199 --> 01:09:06.520
it just to be as simple as I just to say, yes,

1229
01:09:06.600 --> 01:09:09.720
ladies and gentlemen, I stole money and have that be

1230
01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:11.560
the end of it. But in every single one of

1231
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:17.159
these cases, the comment here, as fine as you would

1232
01:09:17.239 --> 01:09:20.640
like to just admit that, it make this quick correct.

1233
01:09:20.680 --> 01:09:22.680
Isn't that what you're saying. Isn't that what you're implied.

1234
01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:26.960
No, sir mister Waters, you have charged me with murdering

1235
01:09:27.079 --> 01:09:30.119
my wife and my son, and I have sat here

1236
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:33.039
for all these weeks listening to all this financial stuff

1237
01:09:33.039 --> 01:09:36.319
that I did wrong that I'm embarrassed by. I'm happy

1238
01:09:36.359 --> 01:09:39.039
to talk to you about as much of that as

1239
01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:42.720
you want to talk about. I'm required to talk about

1240
01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:44.560
it as much as you want to talk about it.

1241
01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:48.920
But the fact is, I cannot specifically remember sitting down

1242
01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:53.960
the details that you're asking me for. I can't tell you.

1243
01:09:54.199 --> 01:09:56.199
But what I can tell you is that in all

1244
01:09:56.239 --> 01:10:01.399
these financial situations, I stole money that was not my money.

1245
01:10:02.319 --> 01:10:05.720
I misled people that I shouldn't have misled, and I

1246
01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:10.439
did wrong. I can tell you that, and I may

1247
01:10:10.479 --> 01:10:14.159
be able to tell you specifically in some instances what

1248
01:10:14.239 --> 01:10:15.079
I did or didn't do.

1249
01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:18.800
All right, we'll good, we'll do that. But the point

1250
01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:22.159
that I'm asking you is it's not as just as

1251
01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:24.640
simple as some paperwork. You had to sit down and

1252
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:27.039
deal with these people and convince them that you were

1253
01:10:27.079 --> 01:10:29.399
telling them the truth in order to steal this money.

1254
01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:34.319
Correct, that may not be true because in some situations

1255
01:10:34.920 --> 01:10:36.920
I may not have had to do that. They may

1256
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:39.720
have just trusted me to do it. Okay, So that's

1257
01:10:39.760 --> 01:10:42.920
my point is I misled them, There's no question about that.

1258
01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:46.199
But did I sit down in each particular instance, and

1259
01:10:47.960 --> 01:10:50.600
like you're breaking it down step by step, I can't

1260
01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:53.720
say that. I can say I did wrong. I stole

1261
01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:56.800
money that wasn't mine, and I shouldn't have done it,

1262
01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:00.560
and it was terrible I did.

1263
01:11:01.319 --> 01:11:03.279
All right. Well, let's look at stage three point thirty

1264
01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:07.840
and this is Arthur Badger in the ups Days.

1265
01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:09.640
Correct, that's correct?

1266
01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:10.359
All right?

1267
01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:12.920
Do you remember what the total recovery was in that

1268
01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.159
particular case? There were multiple plaintiffs let me ask you

1269
01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:17.359
that first, there were multiple plantiffs in that case? Correct?

1270
01:11:17.439 --> 01:11:18.039
That's correct?

1271
01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:20.600
And do you remember what the total recovery was in

1272
01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:21.039
that case?

1273
01:11:21.439 --> 01:11:24.439
Not exactly, but I mean I know generally, all right?

1274
01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:26.880
Was it twelve million dollars? Would you disagree with that?

1275
01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:30.640
Is it twelve million dollars? I mean, if you tell

1276
01:11:30.640 --> 01:11:32.520
me it was twelve million dollars, then I believe you.

1277
01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:34.279
But I thought it was a little bit more than that.

1278
01:11:34.479 --> 01:11:34.880
All right?

1279
01:11:35.479 --> 01:11:39.479
And if ultimately, if you have multiple plaintiffs, how do

1280
01:11:39.560 --> 01:11:41.840
you decide as the planeff's order, how does it work

1281
01:11:41.880 --> 01:11:45.680
out that amounts of that total recovery get allocated to

1282
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:46.720
individual planiffs?

1283
01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:49.720
I mean, different cases are different ways.

1284
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:54.399
Is it true that often the defense attorneys, the civil

1285
01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:57.479
defense attorneys, we'll ask the planes attorneys how you want

1286
01:11:57.479 --> 01:11:58.640
that allocated?

1287
01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:05.920
Sometimes? Yeah?

1288
01:12:06.399 --> 01:12:09.920
Sometimes? Is that what happened in this case? In the

1289
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:10.520
Badger case?

1290
01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:13.239
I can't remember exactly how we came to that.

1291
01:12:14.439 --> 01:12:17.520
Who was the deep pocket in the Badger case? Do

1292
01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:21.399
you remember the defendant that had the money that you

1293
01:12:21.479 --> 01:12:24.960
ultimately recovered from the vast majority? Do you remember, well.

1294
01:12:26.239 --> 01:12:30.920
It was ups and I believe it was. I can't

1295
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:33.159
remember if it was corporate or if there was insurance,

1296
01:12:33.199 --> 01:12:36.680
but it was certainly UPS was the major defendant. Yeah,

1297
01:12:37.479 --> 01:12:41.720
but I believe Arthur Badger was a defendant. I can't remember.

1298
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:43.199
I know UPS was.

1299
01:12:43.439 --> 01:12:46.680
Did you sit down with him and explain this paperwork

1300
01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:48.479
that you were using to steal his money?

1301
01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:51.800
I believe I did sit down with Arthur Badger.

1302
01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:55.199
And managed to convince him that nothing was a mess

1303
01:12:55.439 --> 01:12:57.119
well at the same time stealing money.

1304
01:12:57.199 --> 01:12:58.079
I believe I did.

1305
01:12:58.279 --> 01:13:03.760
And did you allocate millions of dollars to Arthur Badger

1306
01:13:03.800 --> 01:13:06.199
personally while only telling him that his recovery was going

1307
01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:07.960
to be around three hundred thousand dollars.

1308
01:13:10.119 --> 01:13:11.960
I believe that I did, yes, sir.

1309
01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:15.239
And on this exhibit three point thirty, sat down and

1310
01:13:15.279 --> 01:13:17.720
looked him in the eye with all this stuff on here,

1311
01:13:18.479 --> 01:13:20.720
and fast talked to him past these figures that he

1312
01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:24.079
believed you and left thinking that you had done him right.

1313
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:28.279
I would have did. I believe that I sat down

1314
01:13:28.279 --> 01:13:31.800
with Arthur Badger, and I know that I misled Arthur Badger,

1315
01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:34.560
and I'm sure at some point during that conversation that

1316
01:13:34.640 --> 01:13:40.840
I looked him in the eye.

1317
01:13:41.680 --> 01:13:47.039
Going back to UH stage three thirty three, you remember

1318
01:13:47.079 --> 01:13:49.199
Hakim Pintoney. Do you remember him?

1319
01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:50.000
I do?

1320
01:13:50.439 --> 01:13:53.039
What happened to him?

1321
01:13:55.359 --> 01:13:58.119
He was injured in the same wreck that Natasha Thomas

1322
01:13:58.159 --> 01:13:58.720
was injured in.

1323
01:14:00.920 --> 01:14:08.319
Was he badly injured he was? How badly injured? Wasn't?

1324
01:14:09.479 --> 01:14:12.359
Yes? I mean he was terribly injured. He became a

1325
01:14:15.439 --> 01:14:18.159
can't remember what level, but he was a quadriplegic.

1326
01:14:22.079 --> 01:14:24.600
Do you remember what the uh total recovery mount was

1327
01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:27.239
for him?

1328
01:14:27.279 --> 01:14:28.960
Not off the top of my head, no, sir?

1329
01:14:29.319 --> 01:14:31.359
A right, Well, let me show you stage three, three

1330
01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:36.800
three and see what the total If you recall what

1331
01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:39.359
the total recovery was in that case, it.

1332
01:14:39.439 --> 01:14:43.399
Looks like it was ten million, two hundred and forty

1333
01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:44.840
five thousand dollars.

1334
01:14:45.399 --> 01:14:47.000
And that was for a cacine, right.

1335
01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:50.359
That's correct?

1336
01:14:50.560 --> 01:14:52.880
And how much of that was the attorney's fees that

1337
01:14:52.960 --> 01:14:54.960
would have gone to PMPD. That would have been a

1338
01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:55.680
tribute world.

1339
01:14:55.479 --> 01:15:04.760
A year, four million, ninety eight thousand.

1340
01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:08.439
Dollars, four million dollars in legal fees that you would

1341
01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:10.000
have gotten from the settlement. Is that correct?

1342
01:15:10.319 --> 01:15:14.920
Four million, ninety eight thousand dollars, yes, sir.

1343
01:15:17.560 --> 01:15:22.680
And in the end that wasn't enough for you? Correct?

1344
01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:25.560
Was that enough for you?

1345
01:15:26.359 --> 01:15:28.319
Was that enough for me? In that case?

1346
01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:32.439
Yeah? I mean it was four million, over four million

1347
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:34.960
dollars in legal fees that you received that would have

1348
01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:37.119
been a tributable to you through the law firm at

1349
01:15:37.119 --> 01:15:39.000
the end of the year, whatever it worked out to be.

1350
01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:41.560
But you would have been credited with over four million

1351
01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:43.079
in fees for that. Is that correct?

1352
01:15:43.159 --> 01:15:43.760
That's correct?

1353
01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:46.399
And was that enough for you?

1354
01:15:46.960 --> 01:15:47.840
Was that enough for me?

1355
01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:51.760
Or did you take more from I.

1356
01:15:51.399 --> 01:15:54.960
Took moneys from the Queen Pinkney that did not belong

1357
01:15:55.039 --> 01:15:57.439
to me that I should not have taken.

1358
01:15:57.640 --> 01:15:58.960
Been rendered to paraplegic.

1359
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:04.000
Sir, he was a quadrit plea wat fortune than Yes, sir,

1360
01:16:09.680 --> 01:16:12.920
you ultimately take that money from us.

1361
01:16:14.760 --> 01:16:15.880
Mother Pamela as well.

1362
01:16:19.439 --> 01:16:21.399
I believe that. I Did.

1363
01:16:25.640 --> 01:16:27.720
You remember how much money you took from a king?

1364
01:16:28.640 --> 01:16:32.039
No, sir, No, Off the top of my head, I

1365
01:16:32.039 --> 01:16:32.319
do not.

1366
01:16:33.319 --> 01:16:34.880
If I told you it was over three hundred and

1367
01:16:34.880 --> 01:16:36.520
seventy thousand dollars, would you agree with that?

1368
01:16:39.319 --> 01:16:42.000
If that's what the records show? I don't dispute that.

1369
01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:45.239
Do you remember how much you took from the teenager

1370
01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:47.920
and Natasha Thomas in addition to your legal fees?

1371
01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:49.960
Not off the top of my head.

1372
01:16:50.000 --> 01:16:51.920
No, sir, I told you it was over three hundred

1373
01:16:51.920 --> 01:16:53.560
and fifty thousand dollars. Would you agree with that?

1374
01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:54.760
I don't dispute it.

1375
01:16:55.520 --> 01:16:57.359
Do you remember how much you took from Arthur Badger?

1376
01:16:57.960 --> 01:17:00.600
Not off the top of my head, No, sir, if

1377
01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:00.920
it was.

1378
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:03.159
Over one point three million dollars, would you agree with that?

1379
01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:05.119
I don't dispute him.

1380
01:17:05.239 --> 01:17:06.760
Damn, they are battling.

1381
01:17:07.479 --> 01:17:12.680
And when Waters brought up that paaraplegic Alex stole from

1382
01:17:12.840 --> 01:17:16.159
and Alex corrected him and said, no, sir, he was

1383
01:17:16.199 --> 01:17:17.840
a quadra polegic.

1384
01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:20.600
I about shit myself.

1385
01:17:21.279 --> 01:17:26.600
Let me tell you that was what those in the

1386
01:17:26.720 --> 01:17:32.199
business would call an intentional error. Water's meant to misstate

1387
01:17:32.319 --> 01:17:37.279
that he wanted Alex to correct him, because that correction

1388
01:17:38.079 --> 01:17:41.239
made Alex look like even more of a piece of

1389
01:17:41.279 --> 01:17:47.079
shit than he already was. Genius by Waters to intentionally

1390
01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:50.479
mistate that, and I'm telling you he did it on purpose.

1391
01:17:50.880 --> 01:17:55.039
So in this next clip, Waters hammers Alex on his

1392
01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:58.399
financial struggles. He's wanting to paint a picture to the

1393
01:17:58.479 --> 01:18:02.439
jury of how deab I spurred Alex was getting over time.

1394
01:18:02.840 --> 01:18:04.399
And here's back club.

1395
01:18:04.159 --> 01:18:07.880
Around the time that this was going on. Did you

1396
01:18:07.960 --> 01:18:11.159
have some land deals that were going bad, that had

1397
01:18:11.199 --> 01:18:17.479
gone bad which two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, ten,

1398
01:18:17.560 --> 01:18:18.800
twenty eleven.

1399
01:18:19.720 --> 01:18:21.840
I think that they. I think those had happened a

1400
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:25.119
little bit before that. But I had some land deals

1401
01:18:25.159 --> 01:18:32.119
that that you know, had certainly had problems, And.

1402
01:18:40.119 --> 01:18:41.479
That had something to do with the money you were

1403
01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:42.399
taking as well, did it not?

1404
01:18:44.399 --> 01:18:48.600
I think the whole picture had things to do with

1405
01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:53.239
me doing stuff I shouldn't have done. I mean, I

1406
01:18:54.479 --> 01:18:57.239
would agree that. I mean that that certainly would have

1407
01:18:57.239 --> 01:18:58.359
played some role in it.

1408
01:18:59.199 --> 01:19:02.000
Were you living I wealthy lifestyle.

1409
01:19:03.520 --> 01:19:15.800
A wealthy lifestyle, probably, I mean, we were living whatever lifestyle. Probably.

1410
01:19:16.199 --> 01:19:18.239
Would you characterize your lifestyle as wealthy?

1411
01:19:18.640 --> 01:19:21.520
You know that's not That's not how I would characterize it.

1412
01:19:21.560 --> 01:19:24.560
But I'm not gonna take issue with it.

1413
01:19:31.720 --> 01:19:33.640
Around it's time, Are you making more than a million

1414
01:19:33.680 --> 01:19:34.279
dollars a year?

1415
01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:36.439
Around what time?

1416
01:19:36.760 --> 01:19:46.479
Two thousand awhile, yes, twenty twelve, Yes, and then you

1417
01:19:46.520 --> 01:19:47.760
were still stealing money as well?

1418
01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:48.159
Correct?

1419
01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:48.600
Yes?

1420
01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:56.279
Can we at least agree that that's a lot of money.

1421
01:19:57.279 --> 01:20:01.720
Over I think there's no question that's a lot of money.

1422
01:20:01.840 --> 01:20:03.760
Okay, good, we can agree on that that's a lot

1423
01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:06.960
of money. Correct, I feel like we're struggling here. Is

1424
01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:12.720
it where you living a wealthy lifestyle? Were you living

1425
01:20:12.760 --> 01:20:13.960
a wealthy lifestyle?

1426
01:20:14.079 --> 01:20:16.439
I just don't know what you mean by wealthy. You know,

1427
01:20:16.479 --> 01:20:19.720
it's a hard question, mister Murdock. Well, it's it's hard

1428
01:20:19.720 --> 01:20:21.600
for me to know exactly what you want, you know,

1429
01:20:23.000 --> 01:20:26.640
And it depends I was spending money that I that

1430
01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:31.079
wasn't mine, that I shouldn't have. I think that you know,

1431
01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:37.560
we lived a lifestyle, don't. I don't have an issue

1432
01:20:37.560 --> 01:20:38.720
if you want to call it wealthy.

1433
01:20:40.159 --> 01:20:42.399
Would you conceived with me that not all this money

1434
01:20:42.439 --> 01:20:46.520
was going to pills at this point in time, all

1435
01:20:46.560 --> 01:20:49.199
this stolen money?

1436
01:20:49.880 --> 01:20:52.319
No, I doubt that it was.

1437
01:20:53.399 --> 01:20:56.680
And it was being used to support your wealthy lifestyle.

1438
01:20:58.279 --> 01:21:02.720
Well, I haven't looked at all these documents to know

1439
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:05.720
exactly what was being spent where. But here here's what

1440
01:21:05.760 --> 01:21:08.000
I do know. I know that I was making a

1441
01:21:08.039 --> 01:21:11.279
bunch of money and I should have had I should

1442
01:21:11.319 --> 01:21:16.319
have had uh more money than I did. And I

1443
01:21:16.399 --> 01:21:18.720
know that I was spending a bunch of money on pills.

1444
01:21:19.239 --> 01:21:23.880
And I know that, you know, I just I don't

1445
01:21:24.119 --> 01:21:26.960
remember in twenty eleven if those land I just can't

1446
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:30.279
remember those land deals. But you know, if if I

1447
01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:32.840
spent money on other things, I don't dispute that either.

1448
01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:38.760
I just haven't looked at the records, okay, But.

1449
01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:41.479
You would at least concede that the money you were

1450
01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:46.720
stealing was going to support your ever expanding, wealthy lifestyle.

1451
01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:50.960
Would you conceide that.

1452
01:21:49.439 --> 01:21:52.119
Did all of the money I stole any of it,

1453
01:21:52.199 --> 01:21:54.520
mister Murda, any of it? Yeah? I would certainly agree

1454
01:21:54.520 --> 01:21:59.600
that there was money that didn't go to buy just pills.

1455
01:21:59.439 --> 01:22:02.319
All right? And you would concede that even though you

1456
01:22:02.399 --> 01:22:06.720
were generating millions of dollars in fees, that was not

1457
01:22:06.880 --> 01:22:10.239
enough for you. Would you concede that.

1458
01:22:12.399 --> 01:22:16.720
If by concede that you mean was I also stealing

1459
01:22:16.920 --> 01:22:19.640
money that I shouldn't have? Yes, sir, I agree with that.

1460
01:22:19.720 --> 01:22:21.039
I've said that repeatedly.

1461
01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:27.720
Who were the flowers?

1462
01:22:29.039 --> 01:22:32.119
They were two young girls from Columbia.

1463
01:22:33.279 --> 01:22:35.880
They were underage when they became your clients.

1464
01:22:36.479 --> 01:22:36.960
Yes, sir.

1465
01:22:38.680 --> 01:22:40.840
Did they suffer a loss in their family as a

1466
01:22:40.840 --> 01:22:41.800
result of an accident?

1467
01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:42.520
They did?

1468
01:22:43.560 --> 01:22:44.600
What loss did they suffer?

1469
01:22:44.640 --> 01:22:47.319
Who died their their mother? Did?

1470
01:22:47.840 --> 01:22:51.079
And did you get a sizable recovery in the case,

1471
01:22:51.439 --> 01:22:54.600
and that in that particular case related to that. Yes, sir,

1472
01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:56.479
you remember how much that recovery was.

1473
01:22:56.640 --> 01:22:57.359
I don't.

1474
01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:01.520
Got any idea.

1475
01:23:02.399 --> 01:23:04.880
MM. I know it was a significant settlement, and I

1476
01:23:04.920 --> 01:23:06.399
know it was a very good settlement.

1477
01:23:06.479 --> 01:23:08.000
But millions of dollars.

1478
01:23:08.479 --> 01:23:11.600
Oh yeah, it was millions of dollars. But whether it

1479
01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:15.199
was you know, two million, I I I I know

1480
01:23:15.279 --> 01:23:18.680
it was significant. I I I don't know if it

1481
01:23:18.720 --> 01:23:21.640
was eight figures, but I mean, I know it was

1482
01:23:21.640 --> 01:23:22.760
a significant settlement.

1483
01:23:23.399 --> 01:23:26.520
And was there a conservatorship for them because they were underage?

1484
01:23:29.399 --> 01:23:34.840
There was a conservative ship for them. But I don't

1485
01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:36.920
think the fact that they were under age is why

1486
01:23:38.000 --> 01:23:39.239
there was a conservative ship.

1487
01:23:39.479 --> 01:23:41.840
They don't think it was because in at least in part,

1488
01:23:41.880 --> 01:23:45.920
they were under age when the settlement was received.

1489
01:23:47.520 --> 01:23:50.000
No, that's not what I That's not what I remember.

1490
01:23:50.119 --> 01:23:53.399
But uh, for purposes of uh of your X think,

1491
01:23:53.520 --> 01:23:55.800
mister Waters, I agree that was a conservative appointing.

1492
01:23:56.319 --> 01:23:58.479
Well, what is your memory of why that the conservator

1493
01:23:58.520 --> 01:23:59.000
was appointed?

1494
01:24:00.079 --> 01:24:04.359
My memory is is that the father in this case,

1495
01:24:05.000 --> 01:24:09.279
who was the beneficiary or a big beneficiary in this

1496
01:24:09.640 --> 01:24:12.359
and who was the pr of the mother's a case

1497
01:24:13.159 --> 01:24:19.119
was an undesirable witness, and there was testimony that he

1498
01:24:19.159 --> 01:24:25.680
had It was testimony that he had hit his wife,

1499
01:24:26.119 --> 01:24:32.479
and it was clear. We felt like we didn't we

1500
01:24:32.520 --> 01:24:34.600
didn't want him to be the face of the lawsuit,

1501
01:24:34.960 --> 01:24:39.520
so we appointed a conservator for that purpose. Is why

1502
01:24:39.560 --> 01:24:42.039
I believe we appointed a conservator.

1503
01:24:42.319 --> 01:24:44.319
Okay? And who was that?

1504
01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:47.760
That was Russell Laft State Bank? Yes, sir.

1505
01:24:48.920 --> 01:24:54.159
And after that, did you get Russell Laffitte to start

1506
01:24:55.399 --> 01:24:59.199
loaning you money from the Polar Girl's account that he

1507
01:24:59.279 --> 01:24:59.960
was conservative for?

1508
01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:04.560
Want he loaned me money from the pliler account? I

1509
01:25:04.560 --> 01:25:06.079
don't know if I got him to do that.

1510
01:25:06.279 --> 01:25:08.319
Oh, you didn't talk to him about it? Y'all didn't

1511
01:25:08.319 --> 01:25:09.279
talk about that at all?

1512
01:25:09.560 --> 01:25:11.399
No, Uh, we did talk about it.

1513
01:25:11.640 --> 01:25:13.640
I mean, I mean there's emails to that effect. Are

1514
01:25:13.640 --> 01:25:15.720
you disputing that to this jury, mister.

1515
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:18.760
Waters, I'm not disputing. I'm just telling you that Russell

1516
01:25:19.239 --> 01:25:24.479
gave me a loan from the plilers. Your question was

1517
01:25:24.520 --> 01:25:28.359
did I get him to do that? And I don't

1518
01:25:28.359 --> 01:25:30.319
necessarily believe that to be accurate.

1519
01:25:30.399 --> 01:25:31.479
Well, who came up with the idea?

1520
01:25:32.119 --> 01:25:33.920
I don't know that it was come up with an

1521
01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:38.399
idea that was I think that Russell felt like that

1522
01:25:38.479 --> 01:25:43.600
it was a sound investment for those girls to charge

1523
01:25:43.600 --> 01:25:48.640
me a higher interest rate when they weren't getting but

1524
01:25:48.800 --> 01:25:50.199
so much interest somewhere else.

1525
01:25:50.920 --> 01:25:53.840
So what was that interest rate that y'all thought it

1526
01:25:53.880 --> 01:25:55.359
was such a good idea for these girls? Do you

1527
01:25:55.399 --> 01:25:56.159
recall what it was?

1528
01:25:56.319 --> 01:25:57.199
I can't remember.

1529
01:25:57.720 --> 01:26:00.680
The reality is is that you needed the money and

1530
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:04.159
this was a convenient source to keep your massive cash

1531
01:26:04.159 --> 01:26:07.560
flow going as early as twenty eleven, twenty twelve. Isn't

1532
01:26:07.600 --> 01:26:08.159
that correct?

1533
01:26:09.560 --> 01:26:13.560
Well this was alone, yes, sir, But exactly why it

1534
01:26:13.600 --> 01:26:19.159
came from them versus the bank? I don't. I can't

1535
01:26:19.159 --> 01:26:21.600
tell you the details without looking at all that I

1536
01:26:21.640 --> 01:26:23.039
can't tell you out off top of my head.

1537
01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:25.800
And despite all you were earning, you would even send

1538
01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:30.279
Russell email saying, hey, transfer over seventy five thousand from

1539
01:26:30.319 --> 01:26:33.800
the Polar account into my account. Correct? Do you remember

1540
01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:35.520
emails to that a fact that you would have to him?

1541
01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:37.880
Do I remember an email to that effect?

1542
01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:37.920
No?

1543
01:26:38.039 --> 01:26:41.600
I don't remember that. But not if you say there

1544
01:26:41.600 --> 01:26:45.119
were mister Waters, I don't dispute that. I don't dispute

1545
01:26:45.359 --> 01:26:48.720
any of this that I took money that didn't belong

1546
01:26:48.800 --> 01:26:50.600
to me that I misled people.

1547
01:26:51.319 --> 01:26:52.960
That you want the answer to be that simple. That's

1548
01:26:52.960 --> 01:26:54.399
not I want to matter. Wait, we agree on that.

1549
01:26:54.479 --> 01:26:55.319
We agreed on that.

1550
01:26:55.920 --> 01:26:58.720
No, sir, I don't necessarily want the answer to be simple.

1551
01:26:58.960 --> 01:27:03.439
I just want everybody to understand. I do not dispute

1552
01:27:03.960 --> 01:27:07.279
that I stole money that was not my money, that

1553
01:27:07.359 --> 01:27:11.239
I misled people to do that, that I misled people

1554
01:27:11.279 --> 01:27:16.960
that trusted me to do that, and that what I

1555
01:27:17.000 --> 01:27:21.399
did was terrible. I don't dispute that. It's just the

1556
01:27:21.439 --> 01:27:25.039
way you're asking these questions, and you know, I mean,

1557
01:27:25.079 --> 01:27:27.359
there's some things in there that I do take issue with.

1558
01:27:28.199 --> 01:27:31.800
Okay, Which part of what I just asked you about

1559
01:27:31.800 --> 01:27:34.239
the pliers do you take issue with? You take issue

1560
01:27:34.279 --> 01:27:37.520
that y'all didn't conspire to do that. You and Russell. Yeah,

1561
01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:39.239
issue with that, and take issue with that. Okay.

1562
01:27:39.479 --> 01:27:42.119
I can tell you that Russell's feet, Russell Lafitte, never

1563
01:27:42.239 --> 01:27:46.359
conspired with me to do anything. Whatever it was done

1564
01:27:46.960 --> 01:27:47.640
was done by me.

1565
01:27:48.039 --> 01:27:50.119
Okay. So you told the Plaler girls that you were

1566
01:27:50.119 --> 01:27:51.399
borrowing money from their account?

1567
01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:56.680
That, no, I don't know. I don't I don't know

1568
01:27:56.760 --> 01:27:59.319
that I that I told them.

1569
01:27:59.199 --> 01:28:03.039
Russell to tell them I.

1570
01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:08.399
Don't recall. I don't believe so, but I don't. I

1571
01:28:08.439 --> 01:28:11.359
can't sit here and tell you what I told him. However,

1572
01:28:11.399 --> 01:28:12.319
many years ago.

1573
01:28:12.399 --> 01:28:14.159
Did you tell Russell he could borrow money from that

1574
01:28:14.199 --> 01:28:14.720
account too?

1575
01:28:18.600 --> 01:28:21.640
I don't remember having any discussion with him about him

1576
01:28:21.680 --> 01:28:23.239
borrowing money?

1577
01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:25.920
Was the supposed to interest rate you were paying far

1578
01:28:26.039 --> 01:28:28.000
lower than anything you could have gotten anywhere else.

1579
01:28:30.239 --> 01:28:32.159
I don't even know what interstrate I was paying.

1580
01:28:33.319 --> 01:28:35.520
One thing's clear. You never told this to the polar girls,

1581
01:28:35.560 --> 01:28:35.800
did you?

1582
01:28:36.119 --> 01:28:38.560
I would have thought the interest rate that I was

1583
01:28:38.600 --> 01:28:41.439
paying was a little bit more than what a bank

1584
01:28:41.520 --> 01:28:44.119
loan would have been, But I don't know that. I

1585
01:28:45.560 --> 01:28:47.479
don't know that to be I don't know what the

1586
01:28:47.520 --> 01:28:49.760
interest rate was, so I don't know that for sure.

1587
01:28:50.800 --> 01:28:53.159
When you stole the Badger money, how much did you

1588
01:28:53.199 --> 01:28:55.319
steal from Arthur Badger that we talked about before the

1589
01:28:55.319 --> 01:28:55.880
youths GA.

1590
01:28:56.159 --> 01:28:57.760
I don't remember the exact amount?

1591
01:28:58.239 --> 01:29:00.479
Over one point three million dollars? Would you just that?

1592
01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:03.720
I don't dispute. I don't dispute that.

1593
01:29:10.920 --> 01:29:13.000
And that was in addition to the one point two

1594
01:29:13.000 --> 01:29:15.920
million dollars an attorney's feast for his case alone. That

1595
01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:18.720
would have been attributed to you through the firm.

1596
01:29:18.920 --> 01:29:20.680
What I stole from Art to Badger?

1597
01:29:20.840 --> 01:29:21.720
Let me ask you, this.

1598
01:29:21.680 --> 01:29:26.159
Inappropriately was in addition to any fees? Did I legitimately

1599
01:29:26.239 --> 01:29:29.359
earn I shouldn't have stolen money from Art to Badger?

1600
01:29:30.439 --> 01:29:32.720
I misled him and I was wrong.

1601
01:29:34.119 --> 01:29:37.800
Did you speak with Russell of Feet once you stole

1602
01:29:37.840 --> 01:29:42.840
this money from Arthur Badger about structuring that one point

1603
01:29:42.880 --> 01:29:45.319
three million dollars that you stole in a manner so

1604
01:29:45.359 --> 01:29:52.159
it appeared to be payments to the Plilo account? Do

1605
01:29:52.159 --> 01:29:53.079
you understand the question?

1606
01:29:53.199 --> 01:29:54.279
No, sir, say that again.

1607
01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:57.640
Did you have any conversations with Russell of Feet about

1608
01:29:57.720 --> 01:30:01.720
structuring this one point three million dollars into multiple payments

1609
01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:03.640
and then applying it to the Polar account.

1610
01:30:05.880 --> 01:30:08.159
I've heard the testimony and I've seen some of.

1611
01:30:08.079 --> 01:30:11.000
The records you did. Did you have any conversations with

1612
01:30:11.119 --> 01:30:12.119
Russell about that?

1613
01:30:14.039 --> 01:30:17.239
I had to okay, I had to have all right.

1614
01:30:17.399 --> 01:30:21.279
You even asked him to recut the check correct, to

1615
01:30:21.359 --> 01:30:22.720
have Genie recut the check.

1616
01:30:23.399 --> 01:30:27.600
I've seen, I've seen, I believe in email or a

1617
01:30:27.680 --> 01:30:30.880
text to that effect. So you don't dispute that, now,

1618
01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:33.720
I don't dispute that. What I dispute is if you're

1619
01:30:33.760 --> 01:30:37.720
insinuating in any way this was stuff that I did.

1620
01:30:39.600 --> 01:30:41.840
I mean just stuff that I did these things wrong.

1621
01:30:41.920 --> 01:30:43.680
Russell Lafitte didn't do anything.

1622
01:30:46.479 --> 01:30:48.760
I'm not here talking about that. I'm just talking about

1623
01:30:48.800 --> 01:30:49.359
what went on.

1624
01:30:49.520 --> 01:30:52.159
And I know, but you keep talking about what I

1625
01:30:52.199 --> 01:30:54.000
did with Russell Lafitte, And what I want to let

1626
01:30:54.039 --> 01:30:57.520
you know is that I did this, and I'm the

1627
01:30:57.560 --> 01:31:00.359
one that took people's money that I shouldn't have taken,

1628
01:31:00.600 --> 01:31:03.520
and that Russell Defeat was not involved in helping me

1629
01:31:03.640 --> 01:31:07.159
do that. I'm just knowing. Look, if he did it,

1630
01:31:07.319 --> 01:31:08.640
he did it without knowing.

1631
01:31:08.439 --> 01:31:10.279
It, all right, So you send him an email and

1632
01:31:10.279 --> 01:31:12.399
then ask him to recout the check and have the

1633
01:31:12.479 --> 01:31:16.039
check made out to various amounts short of that, and

1634
01:31:16.079 --> 01:31:19.079
then applied those over time to give the illusion of

1635
01:31:19.119 --> 01:31:20.439
payments to the Ploler account.

1636
01:31:20.479 --> 01:31:23.439
Is that correct, mister Waters. I don't know, but I'll

1637
01:31:23.439 --> 01:31:27.800
tell you this. I don't dispute. I don't dispute what's

1638
01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:31.319
in those emails, as far as or text, as far

1639
01:31:31.319 --> 01:31:35.000
as what I told Russell, and as far as what

1640
01:31:35.159 --> 01:31:40.680
I did to again take money that didn't belong to me,

1641
01:31:41.039 --> 01:31:45.399
that wasn't mine and that I was wrong for taking.

1642
01:31:46.479 --> 01:31:48.600
It's just the specifics of that you want me to

1643
01:31:48.640 --> 01:31:51.439
give you details on and I can't do that. I

1644
01:31:51.520 --> 01:31:55.479
do not dispute what's in those text or emails.

1645
01:31:56.920 --> 01:32:03.720
And did you steal that Badger money because you had

1646
01:32:03.720 --> 01:32:07.359
to pay back the Pliler girl's money before they turned

1647
01:32:07.479 --> 01:32:10.600
eighteen and reached the age of majority, and Russell would

1648
01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:13.840
then have to be held to account for that money

1649
01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:16.199
that he had learned fro himself and to you.

1650
01:32:17.079 --> 01:32:19.880
First off, I don't know anything about any money that

1651
01:32:20.079 --> 01:32:23.960
Russell loan to himself. I only know about what he

1652
01:32:24.119 --> 01:32:28.640
loaned to me, and I don't specifically. I don't believe

1653
01:32:28.720 --> 01:32:33.000
that me stealing Arthur Badger's money and taking that money

1654
01:32:33.079 --> 01:32:35.720
that did not belong to me that I wrongly took,

1655
01:32:37.359 --> 01:32:40.359
had anything to do. I don't remember it having a

1656
01:32:40.399 --> 01:32:43.720
relationship with having to pay back a loan, or that

1657
01:32:43.840 --> 01:32:46.920
being some time pressure to pay back a loan that

1658
01:32:46.960 --> 01:32:58.159
he gave me own the Pliler conservativeship. No, and I'm

1659
01:32:58.159 --> 01:33:01.119
not saying that that didn't happen, saying that I don't

1660
01:33:01.159 --> 01:33:03.159
remember that. That's not the way I remember it, and

1661
01:33:03.319 --> 01:33:04.319
I don't remember it.

1662
01:33:05.600 --> 01:33:08.520
Did you ultimately borrow a million dollars roughly from the

1663
01:33:08.520 --> 01:33:12.560
Plalar girls without their knowledge. A million, right, about a

1664
01:33:12.560 --> 01:33:14.199
million dollars in total.

1665
01:33:17.199 --> 01:33:19.279
If you tell me that's the number, I mean, that

1666
01:33:19.399 --> 01:33:23.760
surprises me. But I don't dispute what's in the records.

1667
01:33:23.880 --> 01:33:28.239
But I didn't believe I had a loan. For you're

1668
01:33:28.239 --> 01:33:31.079
saying a million dollars. I didn't believe that I had

1669
01:33:31.119 --> 01:33:38.199
a loan, mister Waters. If that's what the records say,

1670
01:33:38.399 --> 01:33:42.079
I don't dispute it. But that's not what I thought.

1671
01:33:42.720 --> 01:33:48.920
I didn't think I had a million dollar loan from them.

1672
01:33:48.960 --> 01:33:51.640
But if that's what the records say, I don't dispute that.

1673
01:33:54.239 --> 01:33:55.920
But I can tell you this, if I had a

1674
01:33:55.960 --> 01:34:01.239
million dollar loan from them, I don't remember that, and

1675
01:34:01.319 --> 01:34:03.720
I may I may be confusing it with what a

1676
01:34:03.760 --> 01:34:08.920
loan from the bank. But again, if that's what's in

1677
01:34:09.000 --> 01:34:10.359
the records, I don't dispute it.

1678
01:34:10.840 --> 01:34:15.880
Right, So you have no memory whatsoever, And so for

1679
01:34:15.920 --> 01:34:18.760
all you know, it's just a coincidence that the Plowers

1680
01:34:18.760 --> 01:34:21.039
were about to turn eighteen when you stole this badger money,

1681
01:34:21.079 --> 01:34:23.960
and you applied a significant amount of it to pay

1682
01:34:23.960 --> 01:34:25.880
that off before they turned eighteen. You don't have any

1683
01:34:25.880 --> 01:34:26.359
memory of that.

1684
01:34:27.039 --> 01:34:29.840
Now, I can tell you that that was never that

1685
01:34:29.840 --> 01:34:33.079
that was never an issue or motivation for me again

1686
01:34:35.560 --> 01:34:41.399
taking Arthur Badger's money that I shouldn't have taken, that

1687
01:34:41.520 --> 01:34:44.399
didn't belong to me, and that I was wrong for

1688
01:34:46.039 --> 01:34:53.319
I don't remember a loan from the Pliler conservativeship as

1689
01:34:53.439 --> 01:34:54.880
being motivation for that.

1690
01:34:58.640 --> 01:35:01.359
So for all you can remember as coincidence.

1691
01:35:03.119 --> 01:35:05.680
Why I stole Arthur Badger's money just being a while

1692
01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:08.039
you applied it to the Pliler lines right before they

1693
01:35:08.079 --> 01:35:15.399
turned eighteen. No, I'm not saying is a coincidence or

1694
01:35:15.439 --> 01:35:19.880
not a coincidence. What I'm saying is I don't remember that, okay,

1695
01:35:20.640 --> 01:35:23.600
And so I don't remember that being a motivation. If

1696
01:35:23.640 --> 01:35:28.359
it was, I just I didn't know I had a

1697
01:35:28.359 --> 01:35:33.880
million dollar loan from the plil of conservatorship, at least

1698
01:35:33.960 --> 01:35:37.159
as I sit here today. But you know I would

1699
01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:39.760
have known I had a loan from somewhere, And if

1700
01:35:39.800 --> 01:35:42.520
I took Arthur Badger's money and applied it to that,

1701
01:35:43.920 --> 01:35:46.399
I mean again, I stole money that didn't belong to me.

1702
01:35:47.560 --> 01:35:54.439
I misled Arthur Badger to take that money, and I

1703
01:35:54.560 --> 01:35:54.960
was wrong.

1704
01:35:55.560 --> 01:35:57.520
How many times have you practiced I answer before your

1705
01:35:57.520 --> 01:35:59.840
testimony today, never the same one over and over.

1706
01:36:00.359 --> 01:36:03.520
I've never practiced that answer. But you keep asking me

1707
01:36:04.079 --> 01:36:07.720
these questions, and I keep using that answer.

1708
01:36:08.119 --> 01:36:10.319
I'm saying you, what's been entered in evidence as to

1709
01:36:10.640 --> 01:36:22.479
Stakes three twenty one? You recognize generally that document? I do, man,

1710
01:36:22.479 --> 01:36:22.880
what is that?

1711
01:36:25.680 --> 01:36:29.319
This is the dispursement sheet from the Dion Martin case.

1712
01:36:31.279 --> 01:36:32.399
What happened to Dion Martin?

1713
01:36:33.079 --> 01:36:34.359
He got in a WRECT?

1714
01:36:35.279 --> 01:36:36.520
Did you know his family.

1715
01:36:37.800 --> 01:36:38.880
When he got into WRECT?

1716
01:36:39.039 --> 01:36:40.439
Prior to him getting in the RECT?

1717
01:36:41.479 --> 01:36:43.840
I knew who his family was, but prior to getting

1718
01:36:43.840 --> 01:36:46.479
into WRECT. But after he got into DIRECT, I became

1719
01:36:46.600 --> 01:36:48.239
very close with his family.

1720
01:36:48.079 --> 01:36:52.039
Came very close to his family, and Dion suffered some

1721
01:36:52.039 --> 01:36:53.239
pretty severe injuries.

1722
01:36:53.279 --> 01:36:57.479
Correct, Dion was hurt bad, Yeah.

1723
01:36:57.479 --> 01:36:59.239
In putting an injury to his head.

1724
01:37:01.439 --> 01:37:03.199
You know, I heard you say that the other day.

1725
01:37:03.239 --> 01:37:07.359
I don't specifically remember Dion having a head injury. I

1726
01:37:07.399 --> 01:37:10.560
believe Dion had more orthopedic injuries, but he may have

1727
01:37:10.600 --> 01:37:15.319
had some injury to us at mm HM.

1728
01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:17.399
You met with him on a number of occasions.

1729
01:37:18.920 --> 01:37:21.239
I yes, I met with him on a number of occasions.

1730
01:37:21.359 --> 01:37:24.560
Met with his parents on a number of occasions about

1731
01:37:24.600 --> 01:37:27.199
Dion about the case while the case was going on.

1732
01:37:28.800 --> 01:37:31.079
I don't know if I met with his parents about

1733
01:37:31.199 --> 01:37:33.680
Dion's case, but I know I met with Dion, and

1734
01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:35.920
I may have met with his parents if if they

1735
01:37:36.000 --> 01:37:39.239
say that, I I mean, his dad's one of the

1736
01:37:39.239 --> 01:37:41.760
most honorable fellas that I know. If he says I

1737
01:37:41.840 --> 01:37:43.840
met with him, I certainly believed that.

1738
01:37:44.119 --> 01:37:48.680
But you said you became close with them? Correct the parents?

1739
01:37:52.119 --> 01:37:57.079
I I consider Dion's Yes, I consider I think the

1740
01:37:57.119 --> 01:37:59.479
world of his dad and his mom and Dion.

1741
01:38:04.600 --> 01:38:07.560
H What was the uh recovery that was obtained in

1742
01:38:07.600 --> 01:38:08.359
Dion's case?

1743
01:38:10.039 --> 01:38:17.319
Sure, see, let's see, it looks like recovery two two

1744
01:38:17.399 --> 01:38:26.079
million dollars. Actually this is let's see. I know it

1745
01:38:26.119 --> 01:38:28.479
was two million dollars, but I believed the recovery was

1746
01:38:28.600 --> 01:38:39.840
less than two million dollars. I believed the recovery was

1747
01:38:39.920 --> 01:38:42.079
less than two million dollars. I believe that I said

1748
01:38:42.079 --> 01:38:49.920
it was two million dollars. I can't remember exactly what

1749
01:38:49.920 --> 01:38:51.600
the recovery is, but I know it was less than

1750
01:38:51.640 --> 01:38:55.039
two million dollars. Mm And I know that I misstated

1751
01:38:55.079 --> 01:38:56.399
it as two million dollars.

1752
01:38:56.600 --> 01:38:58.520
MM, so you falsified the paperwork, right?

1753
01:39:00.399 --> 01:39:04.920
It appears that I put inaccurate information on the paperwork.

1754
01:39:05.000 --> 01:39:09.199
Yes, sir, you put inaccurate information. You falsified it, right?

1755
01:39:09.640 --> 01:39:10.640
Did you like that word?

1756
01:39:10.720 --> 01:39:10.880
Yes?

1757
01:39:10.920 --> 01:39:11.159
Sir?

1758
01:39:11.960 --> 01:39:17.520
All right? And that's that right there where you put

1759
01:39:17.520 --> 01:39:22.079
that five hundred thousand dollars on there? Correct? I'm sorry?

1760
01:39:22.119 --> 01:39:22.880
Can I have the elm flo?

1761
01:39:24.199 --> 01:39:26.119
I'm sorry, mister words? What was the question.

1762
01:39:27.159 --> 01:39:28.680
Let's get the all my life and then I'll shave

1763
01:39:35.239 --> 01:39:37.520
right there, that's the five hundred thousand dollars that you

1764
01:39:37.800 --> 01:39:43.319
falsified this document with. Is that correct? Where such structured annuity?

1765
01:39:43.479 --> 01:39:45.000
Directly to Michael gunn.

1766
01:39:49.399 --> 01:39:56.359
Uh, that looks like one place that I yes, Why

1767
01:39:56.359 --> 01:40:00.000
did you do that? Why did I?

1768
01:40:00.039 --> 01:40:03.680
Yeah? Thousand? What was your purpose in doing that?

1769
01:40:09.720 --> 01:40:14.760
It appears that I was stealing his money five hundred

1770
01:40:14.800 --> 01:40:15.760
thousand dollars.

1771
01:40:16.479 --> 01:40:24.760
If you're not inflating your fees with that one, I mean,

1772
01:40:25.840 --> 01:40:26.520
you don't remember.

1773
01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:29.319
I know that I inflated the fees like I just

1774
01:40:29.399 --> 01:40:32.479
talked about. But I believe what go back to that

1775
01:40:32.560 --> 01:40:34.920
top of that thing. I believe what I must have

1776
01:40:35.000 --> 01:40:39.439
done with the structured annuity is I had that five

1777
01:40:39.520 --> 01:40:42.720
hundred thousand dollars check, and I must have had that

1778
01:40:44.359 --> 01:40:47.720
made to uh. I must have had that made to

1779
01:40:47.840 --> 01:40:55.279
forge as you've heard, to steal that money from Dion Martin,

1780
01:40:57.319 --> 01:40:59.359
all right down to the bottom that I shouldn't have.

1781
01:40:59.720 --> 01:41:02.800
Is that your signature down there? It is? Is that

1782
01:41:02.880 --> 01:41:04.600
Dion Martin's signature on the other side.

1783
01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:09.199
You dispute that, nah, I don't dispute that.

1784
01:41:12.640 --> 01:41:16.000
So you would have sat down with Dion Martin this

1785
01:41:16.119 --> 01:41:18.680
document with him and convinced him that there was nothing

1786
01:41:18.680 --> 01:41:19.279
to miss here.

1787
01:41:20.079 --> 01:41:21.920
You know, again, I don't know if I went over

1788
01:41:21.960 --> 01:41:24.680
to document with him or not, but I certainly misled

1789
01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:28.239
Dion Martin. I certainly lied to Dion Martin. I certainly

1790
01:41:28.279 --> 01:41:31.000
took money from Dion Martin that did not belong to me,

1791
01:41:31.760 --> 01:41:32.840
and I shouldn't have done it.

1792
01:41:33.680 --> 01:41:37.199
You don't specifically remember talking to Dion. There was nothing

1793
01:41:37.239 --> 01:41:39.680
in you that causes you to remember talking with Dion,

1794
01:41:39.760 --> 01:41:42.159
sitting there with this document in front of him, as

1795
01:41:42.199 --> 01:41:44.920
you looked him in the eye, knowing that you were

1796
01:41:44.960 --> 01:41:47.000
lying to him the whole time. You don't even remember that.

1797
01:41:48.720 --> 01:41:50.920
Nothing in you that causes you to remember.

1798
01:41:50.600 --> 01:41:53.439
That, to specifically remember I'm not sure that I did

1799
01:41:53.479 --> 01:41:57.399
sit down with Dion Martin, but I certainly, mister Waters,

1800
01:41:57.479 --> 01:42:01.560
I misled Dion Martin. I lied to Martin. I took

1801
01:42:01.640 --> 01:42:04.159
Dion Martin's money when I shouldn't have.

1802
01:42:04.520 --> 01:42:06.319
Well, let me ask you this. Of all the people

1803
01:42:06.479 --> 01:42:09.359
on here, all these exhibits, do you have any independent

1804
01:42:09.399 --> 01:42:12.119
recollection of the time where you sat down and looked

1805
01:42:12.159 --> 01:42:14.560
that person in the eye and you were lying to

1806
01:42:14.600 --> 01:42:17.880
them and convincing them that everything was okay while you

1807
01:42:17.920 --> 01:42:20.800
stole their money. Do you remember it, even one of them.

1808
01:42:22.000 --> 01:42:22.680
I'm sure I do.

1809
01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:26.239
Okay, Well, tell us about one.

1810
01:42:27.079 --> 01:42:28.800
I mean, you have to show me, you have to

1811
01:42:28.880 --> 01:42:29.199
give me.

1812
01:42:29.319 --> 01:42:31.840
I'm asking you if you remember one time where you're

1813
01:42:31.880 --> 01:42:33.920
sitting there in your heart, looking somebody in the eye,

1814
01:42:34.000 --> 01:42:36.640
knowing you're stealing from them, and you remember it.

1815
01:42:37.600 --> 01:42:40.439
I remember stealing from people, I remember lying to people,

1816
01:42:40.479 --> 01:42:43.239
and I remember misleading people. For me to tell you

1817
01:42:43.279 --> 01:42:45.199
that I sat down with each one of these people,

1818
01:42:46.359 --> 01:42:47.279
I'm asking you.

1819
01:42:47.199 --> 01:42:51.479
To tell me about just one conversation, one time where

1820
01:42:51.479 --> 01:42:54.680
you were called looking somebody the eye and convincing them

1821
01:42:55.039 --> 01:42:57.279
with your lies that nothing was amiss.

1822
01:42:57.439 --> 01:42:58.279
One conversation.

1823
01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:01.840
There were plenty of conversation where I look people in

1824
01:43:01.880 --> 01:43:05.600
the eye and I lied to them. There were plenty

1825
01:43:05.640 --> 01:43:08.960
of times where I took money that I shouldn't have taken.

1826
01:43:09.319 --> 01:43:11.840
There were plenty of times where I stole money. For

1827
01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:15.239
me to sit and tell you a specific time that

1828
01:43:15.319 --> 01:43:19.399
I sat down with a specific document and what exactly

1829
01:43:19.520 --> 01:43:23.560
was said if you ask me questions, but I can't.

1830
01:43:24.359 --> 01:43:27.520
I can't remember sitting down with Dion on it.

1831
01:43:27.680 --> 01:43:29.640
They certainly remember it, don't they, mister Murdoch.

1832
01:43:29.760 --> 01:43:31.119
I don't know if they do or not, but I

1833
01:43:31.119 --> 01:43:33.680
would assume. So you can't tell us.

1834
01:43:33.640 --> 01:43:36.119
One time where it just sticks out in your memory

1835
01:43:36.159 --> 01:43:38.680
where either like I'm pulling a fast one right now

1836
01:43:39.319 --> 01:43:42.680
or anything whatever reaction you had a single one.

1837
01:43:42.800 --> 01:43:44.960
No, sir, that's not correct. I can remember a lot

1838
01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:50.199
of times where I lied to my clients, I misled

1839
01:43:50.199 --> 01:43:54.680
my clients, and I stole money from my clients in conversations.

1840
01:43:56.560 --> 01:43:58.039
But for me to sit and tell you that I

1841
01:43:58.079 --> 01:44:02.560
had a conversation about this particular document, I don't dispute it.

1842
01:44:03.520 --> 01:44:05.680
I know you don't dispute it. Mister Martin. You've said

1843
01:44:05.680 --> 01:44:11.560
that one hundred times, but you can't recall for this

1844
01:44:11.600 --> 01:44:14.880
story one of these people, looking them in the eye

1845
01:44:15.199 --> 01:44:17.720
while you lie to them. You can't recall a single one.

1846
01:44:18.399 --> 01:44:19.680
I've asked you this three times.

1847
01:44:19.720 --> 01:44:26.359
Now I promise you answered, jannor asking answered three times.

1848
01:44:27.640 --> 01:44:35.319
Here go, miss mister Waters, Mister Murdad, I don't know

1849
01:44:35.359 --> 01:44:37.560
if your points made or not. But here, here's here.

1850
01:44:37.640 --> 01:44:38.560
You don't know that either, Doe.

1851
01:44:38.800 --> 01:44:45.119
Here's what I will say again. I remember lying to

1852
01:44:45.359 --> 01:44:50.479
clients of mine. I did it on more than one occasion.

1853
01:44:51.920 --> 01:44:54.640
I took their money when I shouldn't have taken it.

1854
01:44:54.880 --> 01:44:57.479
I'm sure that I looked them into eye. I'm sure

1855
01:44:57.520 --> 01:45:02.840
that I misled them, but I can't tell you exactly

1856
01:45:03.199 --> 01:45:06.680
when those occurred. Twelve years ago is the only point.

1857
01:45:06.880 --> 01:45:11.439
I don't dispute that day occurred. I don't dispute that

1858
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:17.680
everything about what I did was wrong, Okay, but I

1859
01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:21.239
can't sit and tell you the specific details that you're

1860
01:45:21.279 --> 01:45:22.680
wanting me to give you.

1861
01:45:22.960 --> 01:45:24.840
We could just write that answer down on a sheet

1862
01:45:24.880 --> 01:45:26.319
of paper and you could hold it up each time

1863
01:45:26.359 --> 01:45:28.359
you want to say that I couldn't let or if.

1864
01:45:31.000 --> 01:45:34.039
Objections overrule, if that's what you wanna do, mister Waters.

1865
01:45:34.079 --> 01:45:35.720
But I'm I'm trying to answer your question.

1866
01:45:35.960 --> 01:45:40.199
All right, these were real people you were dealing.

1867
01:45:39.880 --> 01:45:41.800
With, right, absolutely, they were.

1868
01:45:41.920 --> 01:45:43.720
You know you want to give that answer. But these

1869
01:45:43.720 --> 01:45:45.319
are real people, aren't they not.

1870
01:45:45.520 --> 01:45:48.399
They're very real people. And you know, one of the

1871
01:45:48.439 --> 01:45:51.560
saddest parts of this whole thing is is you know

1872
01:45:51.680 --> 01:45:56.239
they're people that I I I still care about, and

1873
01:45:56.279 --> 01:46:03.399
I did them this way. You know, That's what I

1874
01:46:03.479 --> 01:46:08.039
was meaning in that text that you made the issue

1875
01:46:08.039 --> 01:46:13.600
about to and at griswold a A And it was

1876
01:46:13.640 --> 01:46:15.960
a lot talking about my partners, but it was a

1877
01:46:16.000 --> 01:46:19.319
lot talking about these people. I mean, I know the

1878
01:46:19.399 --> 01:46:23.439
people that I did wrong and that I hurt, that

1879
01:46:23.520 --> 01:46:25.840
I stole from. I mean, there are people that I

1880
01:46:25.880 --> 01:46:34.520
think a lot of m and hang on, hang on,

1881
01:46:34.600 --> 01:46:38.560
I'm gonna say one more thing. And there's no question

1882
01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:42.239
that the actions that I did, the things that I

1883
01:46:42.279 --> 01:46:46.079
did wrong hurt a lot of the people that I

1884
01:46:46.159 --> 01:46:48.560
care about the most. And I did a lot of

1885
01:46:48.640 --> 01:46:53.840
damage and I waked a lot of hat havoc that

1886
01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:54.479
I'm gonna.

1887
01:46:54.319 --> 01:46:55.399
Damage a lot of havoc.

1888
01:46:55.439 --> 01:46:56.880
I hear, there's no question about it.

1889
01:46:57.079 --> 01:46:59.000
I show you what's from Mark to States three fifteen.

1890
01:46:59.119 --> 01:47:11.680
See if you recognize it. I do which case is this?

1891
01:47:11.680 --> 01:47:14.680
This is Elise Mallory.

1892
01:47:15.880 --> 01:47:17.119
And what happened in this case?

1893
01:47:21.439 --> 01:47:22.880
I stole her money?

1894
01:47:23.520 --> 01:47:26.159
What happened though, with the underlying case? Can you tell

1895
01:47:26.159 --> 01:47:27.479
the jury of that? Do you remember that?

1896
01:47:34.199 --> 01:47:41.800
I believe miss it was Miss Taylor, miss Mallory's. I

1897
01:47:41.880 --> 01:47:44.199
believe it was her daughter. Might have been a granddaughter,

1898
01:47:44.199 --> 01:47:47.439
but I believe it was her daughter. Was in a wreck?

1899
01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:50.439
Did she die and she got killed?

1900
01:47:51.520 --> 01:47:53.600
And Miss Mallory came to you for help? She?

1901
01:47:53.680 --> 01:47:55.640
Did you remember that one at all?

1902
01:47:56.159 --> 01:47:56.439
Okay?

1903
01:47:56.439 --> 01:47:57.159
We remember one?

1904
01:47:57.159 --> 01:47:57.319
Now?

1905
01:47:57.399 --> 01:47:59.640
Oh no, mister Waters. I remember all of these people.

1906
01:48:00.399 --> 01:48:02.880
It's not that I don't remember them. You're just asking

1907
01:48:02.920 --> 01:48:07.119
me details about conversations. I can promise you I remember

1908
01:48:07.720 --> 01:48:10.239
all of these people that I did wrong.

1909
01:48:10.359 --> 01:48:12.359
Right, And you stole all of the money, didn't you.

1910
01:48:13.079 --> 01:48:17.279
I said, I stole all of the money, most most

1911
01:48:17.319 --> 01:48:19.640
of the money that I've been accused of stealing. I stole.

1912
01:48:20.119 --> 01:48:22.920
No, I mean, you stole every single dime of the recovery.

1913
01:48:23.000 --> 01:48:25.000
She didn't get one dying. Isn't that right?

1914
01:48:26.359 --> 01:48:28.479
I have to look at the records, but that's.

1915
01:48:28.880 --> 01:48:30.920
Yourself with legal fees, and then you stole all the

1916
01:48:30.920 --> 01:48:33.479
rest of the money. Correct.

1917
01:48:35.079 --> 01:48:36.720
I don't dispute that, all right.

1918
01:48:37.560 --> 01:48:39.199
First of all, tell me about miss Malley. So she

1919
01:48:39.239 --> 01:48:42.039
lost her daughter, correct, is that correct?

1920
01:48:42.640 --> 01:48:43.039
Correct?

1921
01:48:43.079 --> 01:48:44.760
And she came to you for help. All that correct?

1922
01:48:44.760 --> 01:48:45.279
Granddaughter?

1923
01:48:45.319 --> 01:48:48.439
But all right, one, all right, and she came to

1924
01:48:48.479 --> 01:48:50.479
you for help, correct sir.

1925
01:48:50.520 --> 01:48:51.479
I agree with you on that.

1926
01:48:51.840 --> 01:48:55.039
Very very sweet lady, correct, very sweet lady. All right,

1927
01:48:55.159 --> 01:48:57.399
tell me about your conversation when you looked her in

1928
01:48:57.439 --> 01:48:59.960
the eye and lied to her while you were stealing

1929
01:49:00.199 --> 01:49:02.159
every dime of the money.

1930
01:49:04.000 --> 01:49:07.319
That's just a perfect example of mister Waters. I stole

1931
01:49:07.399 --> 01:49:10.159
her money. I did her wrong. But I don't even

1932
01:49:10.199 --> 01:49:13.359
believe that ALICEE. Mallory was there when I stole that money.

1933
01:49:13.399 --> 01:49:16.560
I don't If you look at that disbursement sheet, there's

1934
01:49:17.199 --> 01:49:20.159
I don't even believe I ever showed that to her.

1935
01:49:20.680 --> 01:49:23.800
Okay, you don't remember having any conversations with her when

1936
01:49:23.800 --> 01:49:26.279
you lied with her about this case while you were

1937
01:49:26.319 --> 01:49:27.279
stealing all her money.

1938
01:49:27.479 --> 01:49:29.359
I don't think I did. In this case. I don't

1939
01:49:29.359 --> 01:49:31.159
think I had any meetings with her. I think I

1940
01:49:31.199 --> 01:49:34.760
stole her money, and I don't believe that I had

1941
01:49:34.760 --> 01:49:35.520
a meeting with her.

1942
01:49:35.960 --> 01:49:39.119
Again, you can't tell us one conversation you have with

1943
01:49:39.159 --> 01:49:40.920
any of these people when you looked them in the

1944
01:49:41.039 --> 01:49:44.439
eye and convinced them that you were doing them right,

1945
01:49:44.520 --> 01:49:45.560
that you were telling the truth.

1946
01:49:45.640 --> 01:49:48.039
That's not true, mister Waters. I remember a lot of

1947
01:49:48.039 --> 01:49:51.039
those conversations. I remember a lot of them.

1948
01:49:51.239 --> 01:49:55.279
Okay, all right, you're just testified. You remember a lot

1949
01:49:55.319 --> 01:49:57.039
of them. I've been asking you now for the past

1950
01:49:57.039 --> 01:49:59.359
ten minutes. So tell me about one of them where

1951
01:49:59.399 --> 01:50:00.399
it's stuck in your heart.

1952
01:50:00.600 --> 01:50:02.600
There are a lot of you. There are a lot

1953
01:50:02.680 --> 01:50:07.560
of conversations I had where I misled my clients and

1954
01:50:07.600 --> 01:50:12.439
I stole their money, where they trusted me, and I

1955
01:50:12.520 --> 01:50:15.279
remember them.

1956
01:50:15.319 --> 01:50:18.560
Okay, but you again, can you tell me one tell

1957
01:50:18.600 --> 01:50:21.760
me how it went down, what you said, how you

1958
01:50:21.800 --> 01:50:24.439
convinced them, how you looked them in the eye, how

1959
01:50:24.479 --> 01:50:27.239
you made them believe, how you use your skills as

1960
01:50:27.239 --> 01:50:29.800
a trial lawyer to convince them. Can you just tell

1961
01:50:29.840 --> 01:50:31.359
me about one of those what was going through your

1962
01:50:31.399 --> 01:50:33.560
head when you did it? You're on an objection under

1963
01:50:33.600 --> 01:50:36.039
rule for them free We've been going over and over

1964
01:50:36.079 --> 01:50:38.880
and over there injection overrule.

1965
01:50:40.680 --> 01:50:46.520
What's your question, mister Waters, Can you tell me about

1966
01:50:46.720 --> 01:50:50.600
one of the conversations you had with all of these people,

1967
01:50:51.079 --> 01:50:53.600
just one. I can tell you what was going through

1968
01:50:53.640 --> 01:50:55.760
your head and how it went down when you sat

1969
01:50:55.840 --> 01:50:58.760
there and looked them in the eye and convinced them

1970
01:50:58.760 --> 01:51:01.199
that you were doing them right while you were lying

1971
01:51:01.239 --> 01:51:03.319
to them and stealing their money.

1972
01:51:03.399 --> 01:51:06.319
Yes, sir, I had a lot of conversations with a

1973
01:51:06.359 --> 01:51:09.680
lot of my clients that I cared about, and so

1974
01:51:10.720 --> 01:51:13.359
I will tell you that I had conversations with them

1975
01:51:13.600 --> 01:51:17.199
where I misled them and I lied to them, and

1976
01:51:17.239 --> 01:51:27.479
I took their money. And that was a number of times.

1977
01:51:28.520 --> 01:51:29.560
But you're asking me.

1978
01:51:29.840 --> 01:51:31.840
Just one specific one, mister Murdock.

1979
01:51:33.039 --> 01:51:35.239
Every single one of these clients I would have had

1980
01:51:35.239 --> 01:51:39.720
conversations with at some point, but this particular, like mister Waters,

1981
01:51:39.760 --> 01:51:43.119
that dispersement, she I didn't have. There was never a

1982
01:51:43.199 --> 01:51:46.239
sit down with miss Mallory about to disperse in the money.

1983
01:51:46.600 --> 01:51:49.039
You don't recall talking to her about the status of

1984
01:51:49.079 --> 01:51:51.479
her case and telling her lies and convincing her that

1985
01:51:51.560 --> 01:51:53.800
you were on her side. You don't remember that.

1986
01:51:54.000 --> 01:51:56.479
No, I definitely remember that, but that's not what you

1987
01:51:56.600 --> 01:52:02.000
asked me. I had numerous conversations with Miss Mallory, you

1988
01:52:02.039 --> 01:52:05.239
know about this case. But the fact is is you

1989
01:52:05.319 --> 01:52:09.680
were asking me about me sitting down with this dispersement sheet,

1990
01:52:09.840 --> 01:52:12.479
looking her in the eye and convincing her. And I'm

1991
01:52:12.520 --> 01:52:15.479
telling you that that didn't happen in this case. Now,

1992
01:52:15.680 --> 01:52:18.039
I had a lot of conversations with her where I

1993
01:52:18.079 --> 01:52:21.000
misled her, mister Waters, where I lied to her.

1994
01:52:21.239 --> 01:52:25.000
So that last sentence that Alex said, I had a

1995
01:52:25.000 --> 01:52:28.720
lot of conversations with her where I misled her, mister Waters,

1996
01:52:29.239 --> 01:52:32.199
where I lied to her. That's starting to tell a

1997
01:52:32.239 --> 01:52:35.159
picture right of how big of a piece of shit

1998
01:52:35.239 --> 01:52:40.319
he is. Well, it was at that point that Waters

1999
01:52:40.479 --> 01:52:44.439
chose to recess for the day, and that's where you

2000
01:52:44.520 --> 01:52:48.279
and I will recess for this episode, and we'll pick

2001
01:52:48.279 --> 01:52:52.039
it up from here on the next episode. And trust

2002
01:52:52.039 --> 01:52:57.079
me when I tell you you ain't heard nothing yet.

2003
01:53:06.880 --> 01:53:09.920
Thank you so much for your support. I can't tell

2004
01:53:09.960 --> 01:53:12.920
you how much I appreciate it. Please consider the Patreon.

2005
01:53:13.039 --> 01:53:17.520
We offer commercial, free early releases, bonus episodes, files of

2006
01:53:17.600 --> 01:53:22.319
everything we discuss. I got some pictures from this particular

2007
01:53:22.439 --> 01:53:26.720
questioning that was done where they reference those badges things

2008
01:53:26.800 --> 01:53:27.039
like that.

2009
01:53:27.079 --> 01:53:28.239
I'm going to put those on the.

2010
01:53:28.159 --> 01:53:33.319
Patreon, even quarterly gifts on that Patreon. At our global

2011
01:53:33.359 --> 01:53:38.880
celebrity level, so check that out. Patreon dot com, slash

2012
01:53:39.079 --> 01:53:48.159
exposed podcast files, and until next time for exposed scandalous

2013
01:53:48.199 --> 01:53:52.920
files of the elite, I'm your host, Jim Chapman, much love,