Jan. 23, 2025

"Murdaugh" Episode Eighteen | The Crime Scene Details

"Murdaugh" Episode Eighteen | The Crime Scene Details

Dr. Kenneth Kinsey analyzes the Murdaugh murders, focusing on forensic evidence, expert testimony discrepancies, and the single shooter theory.

Timestamps
22:12 Analyzing Paul's Injuries
43:17 Shifting Focus to Maggie Murdoch
45:58 Insights on...

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Season 1
Dr. Kenneth Kinsey analyzes the Murdaugh murders, focusing on forensic evidence, expert testimony discrepancies, and the single shooter theory.

Timestamps
22:12 Analyzing Paul's Injuries
43:17 Shifting Focus to Maggie Murdoch
45:58 Insights on Maggie's Fatal Wounds
1:16:43 Debating Shooter's Height and Angles
1:34:01 Defense's Theory of the Shooting
1:35:20 Demonstrating the Shotgun Mechanics
1:35:47 Analyzing the Shooter's Position
1:36:37 Critiquing the Defense's Argument
1:40:43 Understanding Blowback in Gunshot Wounds
1:47:16 The Crime Scene Cleanup Process
1:49:28 Examining the 300 Blackout Shells
2:00:34 Disputing the Angles of Impact
2:16:41 Analyzing Paul's Injuries
2:41:30 Discussing Weapon Choices in the Murders
2:46:33 Variables Affecting Shooter Height

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WEBVTT

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Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of

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the Elite. I'm your host, Jim Chapman, and today we

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are back with the eight teenth episode in this Murdall series.

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Before we get into it, look, i'm pre recording this

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on Monday this week and tomorrow here in South Louisiana,

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we got something going down y'all that we ain't used to.

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They are forecasting some eight inches of snow all the

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way down here in Caging Country, South Louisiana. So hopefully

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I will thaw out by the next time you hear

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an episode for me. But we're pretty excited about it.

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I know.

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I have a lot of you that are from up

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in North United States, right, and of course Canada. We

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have a lot of listeners there, and of course y'all

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are used to this, but down here in South Louisiana

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not so much. So let's hope that the next few

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days aren't absolutely crazy. But you all of y'all in

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North America and Canada and all these cold places around

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the world, y'all. I know y'all are laughing at us

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eight inches of snow, but hey, that's a lot for here,

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and it's cold, it's supposed to be like fifteen degrees tonight.

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That's cold for me, but we'll get into it, and

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I'm going to tell you of all the witnesses called

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during this trial, this guy I'm featuring today is definitely

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my personal favorite. Now, what makes this guy so good

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and actually kind of entertaining is he sneaks up on you.

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Let me explain what I mean. Kenneth Kenzie, or should

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I say doctor Kenneth Kenzie is what, at verse glance

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you may term as kind of.

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A good old boy. He looks like your regular everyday guy.

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He has a kind of a country accent like I do,

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comes off somewhat jovial, and is actually quite funny in

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the way that he gives his testimony, but not in

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a disrespectful way. It's hard to explain, but behind this facade,

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if you will, this guy is as smart as they

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come and likely the best crime scene reconstruction expert in

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the country. I mean, it is his whole job to

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go to a crime scene where nobody knows what the

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hell happened and basically reconstruct this thing to where you

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know exactly what happened. So before I get into his testimony,

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let me tell you a little bit about his qualifications,

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his credentials, his experience. Well, better yet, let me let

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doctor Kinsey tell you.

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I've got a degree from Clinston University, a master's degree

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that's undergraduate, a master's degree from Troy University, a PhD

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from Walden University. I have formerly been certified by the

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International Association for Identification two different times for crime scene

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investigation and reconstruction. I've worked approximately eight hundred death scenes

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in my career, and I've handled and processed countless evidence

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in crime scene and the crime scene related disciplines. I

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have completed and passed proficiency in those disciplines as recommended

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by the International Association for Identification, which includes oral exams, research,

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technical work. And also I worked under a qualified examiner

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for a determined amount of time. And I've been a

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police officer for approximately thirty years in various capacities.

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And just to remind the jury, you were qualified as

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a forend crime scene forensics expert in this particular case, Yes, sir,

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I was, and real quick. What other types of qualifications

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as an expert do you possess?

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I'm also a firearms instructor for handguns. Shotguns they call

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them patrol rifles, but that includes subguns, fully automatic and

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semi automatic platforms. I have endorsements through the South Fline

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of Criminal Justice Academy. I'm also a SLID Concealed Weapons

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Permit instructor, and I'm formerly a law enforcement firearms instructor

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through the NRA.

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So, as you just heard, this guy is no joke.

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He knows what he's doing and is really a star

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witness for the prosecution. So they get right into it

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with doctor Kenzie in the first thing they discuss are

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the injuries to Paul Murdall, and doctor Kinsey paints a

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picture that you're not gonna believe. Here's that club.

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All right, let's talk about if we can, and again

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we're gonna have to deal with some of maybe not

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the images as much, but deal with some of the

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injuries that that Maggie Paul suffered. Right, yes, sir, let's

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if you could just remind the jury what were the

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injuries that Paul suffered?

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Please?

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They were very, very severe firearms injuries. One was a

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shotgun wound to just a little anatomical left of the

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mid line of the body. One was to the shoulder

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and it proceeded into the jaw and ultimately into the head.

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And the uh was that the first injury or the second.

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The first injury was the shotgun wound to the middle

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of the chest, and it was non fatal, at least

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not fatal immediately.

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And then what about the second injury?

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The second injury was immediate of immediate death.

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And were you able and reviewing the crime scene evidence,

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to come to any conclusions as to the order in

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which Paul suffered those gunshot wounds from the shooter?

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Yes, sir, I was all right, and please relate that

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to the jury.

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My conclusion was that the first non fatal wound to

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the midline of the body occurred as Paul was standing

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with his body canned in the middle of that dog

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food room, pointed slightly southwest, and the shot entered the

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mid line of his chest, exited his under arm, entered

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his underarm on the actual arm, and exited the outside

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of his arm, and most of those nine pellets proceeded

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through the back window of that dog food room He's.

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And then, just real quick, you said nine pellets, So

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explain that to the jury.

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Why you say nine pellets?

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That double buckshot shot shell contains nine pellets and I

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guess you describe it as a styrofoam packing to keep

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it tight so it doesn't shake. And when that cartridge

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is expelled out of the end of that barrel, the

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styrofoam packing dissipates or goes it own way, and those

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projectiles continue in the in the correct path.

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Sure you can.

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I have the I'm gonna police, I'm gonna show you

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what's been marked the states five three one, five three

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two and five three three, and see if you recognize

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these particular remedies. Yes, sir, I do, all right, and

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tell the jury just generally what these are plays.

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These are views of the floor of the feed room

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and a view from the entrance to the feed room,

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and some digitally placed footprint not footprint's legs that I

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placed in there to show Paul's approximate position in that

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feed room at the time of the shooting.

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All right, Doctor Kensey, you were talking a little bit

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about Paul's positioning and his location when that first shot happened,

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and if you could tell the jury your conclusion as

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to where he was located when that shot was fired,

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and then if you want to step down and if

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you could maybe point out what was added to this

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image to kind of reflect your conclusion in that regard.

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Okay, as you see here, those are the digital legs

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that I placed there showing Paul's approximate position as he

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was standing when he had the first gunshot wound. Here

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along the floor, what you see or passive or ninety

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degree blood droplets. And when blood, you can tell a

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lot from the direction of blood by the way it

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strikes an object. Blood has a cohesive factor. It's viscous

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and you probably heard that term before with the motor

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ore for your car. It's thicker than water. And the

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thing that causes that blood droplet to change shape is

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the friction and the direction and how much force was used. Well,

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a ninety degree drop just is exactly that it's perpendicular

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to the ground. So these ninety degree drops right here

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tell me that Paul, who was standing there for a moment,

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can't tell you how long, but those drops were running

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down from that wound on his arm, more than likely

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his arm because his chest area had a shirt on it.

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It takes a little while for that blood to make

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it through the shirt, but it'll run down the outside

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of your arm and drip off your fingers, and you

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can see these ninety degree droplets here here, and then

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they actually lead to the door. You can follow the

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path to the door. He's not moving very fast because

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most of them are almost perfectly circular or ninety degrees.

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Had he been moving real fast, you could see some

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directionality in them, a tail, because the tail always tells

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you the direction with a blood drop. So I know

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he was moving slowly, and I know he was standing

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in the middle of this room for some time after

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the first shotgun wound?

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All right, and approximately how far was Paul inside the

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feed room? Can you just drab a little bit about

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the dimensions of the fee room and your conclusion is

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of how far within the room Paul was when he

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was struck by that first blast.

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Yes, sir, well, the feed room is ten foot deep

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by my own calculations and by looking at the other sketches,

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and where you see his feet here is just on

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the other side of the halfway point. So I went

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You know, I'm guessing because I have no way of

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running a tape measure, because when I went there, everything

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was moved. But this door is thirty six inches and

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it's approximately a foot and a half two foot past

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the door, So that's how I come up with that determination.

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And he's just on the other side of the midpoint

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of that ten foot.

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Room, which is about how far from the doorway five foot?

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All right, and I'm going to show what's de marcus

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five thirty four. Stay five thirty four and see if

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you recognize.

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That I do, yes, sir, all right, and tell the

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Jerry what that is real quick.

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That is a general view from outside the feed room

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that was taken at the time the crime scene was

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originally processed, and I added a digital enhanced arrow showing

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the reader or the viewer the direction of the shot down.

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Right, That's how it offers say spot with four anothers okay.

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You.

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All right, I'm gonna put five thirty four up on

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the screen, and if you would just show that arrow

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that you're talking about that's been added to.

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This image, yes, sir, right here all right as well?

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Just show generally where those blood spots are.

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It's not the best image in the world, but where

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those bloodstorm spots are. That lets your conclusion about Paul's

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location within the feed room when the first blasts from them.

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The placard hasn't been moved, although it's hard to see

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the droplets. And of course I didn't add the legs

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to this, but just on the other side of that placard.

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And then you have here a quantity of ninety degree

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blood droplets with a partial footwear impression in it. And

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then you can follow the blood droplets to the door.

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Going back to the states five thirty one. Again, point

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out to the jury if you would the sort of

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the digitally added feet that you had added, all right,

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and if we would, if you could just if that's

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the feed room doorway, can you just sort of position

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me in your opinion of how Paul was standing when

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that first blast happened.

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That's the door were coming in? Yes, about writing here,

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all right?

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And let me ask you this, in your review of

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the evidence and the available crime scene evidence that you've

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reviewed in your expert opinion, is there any way that

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Paul's arms were raised.

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When he shot when he suffered that first blast to

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the chest.

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I see no possible way his arms were oh when

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he suffered that first shot.

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Number And can you explain the basis for your.

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Conclusion to the jury that yes, or I can the

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shot pellets real close because they stayed together, they went

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in as one as a unit, and then they did

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what a shot pellet does. They separated once they struck

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the skin and made the entry run along inside his

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body cavity and exited his underarm. If his arms would

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have been up, he would have had no entry wounds

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on the bottom of his arm and then more exit

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wounds on the outside. He had over twenty entry and

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exit wounds. He's only got nine pellets. So the only

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way the math works out is if his arm was down,

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00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:38.320
and additionally, the wad stopped and was under his arm.

231
00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.799
Had his arm spent up, in my opinion, that wad

232
00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:44.039
would have went on and exited his body. Because it's

233
00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:47.200
only plastic. It doesn't take as much resistance to stop

234
00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:49.120
that wad as it does a shot pellet.

235
00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:51.519
And the wad stopped, it was right.

236
00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:53.559
You could grab it with your fingers if you would

237
00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.120
have been medical personnel.

238
00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:55.399
And give me to it.

239
00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:57.720
It was right there, all right.

240
00:13:58.440 --> 00:13:59.279
And let me ask you this.

241
00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:02.840
Do you have I a lot of general experience with firearms.

242
00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:10.720
I do. I'm a firearms instructor for handguns, shotguns, patrol rifles, subguns,

243
00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:14.600
and fully automatic patrol rifles. Everything but precision Ricker.

244
00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.120
All right, And when you say an instructor, where is that.

245
00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.720
I'm certified and I have tredentials in the South Caroline

246
00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:22.840
of Criminal Justice Academy. I've also been certified as an

247
00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.720
NRA Law Enforcement instructor, and I currently have a c

248
00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:30.159
WP endorsement to teach concealed weapon permits from a South

249
00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:31.440
Combine law enforcement.

250
00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:35.320
And you testified how many buckshots are typically in your

251
00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:36.399
average buck shot.

252
00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:39.320
Show according to the literature, and according to my experience,

253
00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:41.720
there are nine in that particular buck shot.

254
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.600
Did you see any evidence I think you've already mentioned this,

255
00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:47.919
but did you see any evidence from the crime scene

256
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.080
as to what happened to some of those pellets as

257
00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:53.080
Paul was struck as they continued.

258
00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:55.919
On, Yes, sir, I did. They exited on through the

259
00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:56.559
back window.

260
00:14:56.799 --> 00:14:58.320
All right, and I'm going to show what's already been

261
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.480
admitted is five thirty two and put that up on

262
00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:04.840
the screen, and if you could describe to the jury

263
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:06.679
what you're talking about in that regard, please.

264
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:14.159
This is that window at the back of the feed room,

265
00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:18.279
and you can see the shot shell pellet defects here

266
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:23.919
as they went through the window and continued on their path.

267
00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:25.440
Those kind of big holes.

268
00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.240
Are those consistent though with a buckshot pellet striking that?

269
00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.440
Yes, so they are, and some are bigger than others

270
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:34.440
because it's just the makeup of glass. I mean, sometimes

271
00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:37.480
you'll get one individual hole and sometimes it'll take out,

272
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.759
you know, a large portion. So I have no way

273
00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.080
to know that, right, And I just.

274
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:44.120
Real quick, I've got.

275
00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:46.519
Five point thirty three.

276
00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:48.240
I'm gonna put that up on the screen.

277
00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.240
And again, is that just a close up of where

278
00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.440
Paul was standing about five feet.

279
00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:55.600
Or so inside that feed room? It is, yes, sir,

280
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:57.879
based on your review of the blood avitue that you saw.

281
00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:01.399
Yes, sir. And here are the partial footwear impressions, and

282
00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.919
here you can see the ninety degree blood droplets and

283
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:05.960
some other biological materials.

284
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.759
Right, And in your conclusion, what's the most just again,

285
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.279
what's the most likely explanation for those ninety degrees blood drops?

286
00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:13.840
So how's that physically happening?

287
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:16.960
It's the arm mound. Even though it is non fatal,

288
00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:20.960
there's less restriction from clothing or anything else on the arm.

289
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.360
You know. Here you've got the T shirt that's got

290
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.440
to completely saturate before it gets to the bottom and

291
00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.240
drops but here on the arm you've got nothing. So

292
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:35.360
once those pellets exited, entered and exited again, that blood's free, free,

293
00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.200
poor or not free, poor and free running down his arm,

294
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:40.080
and then they'll drip off the ends of your fingers.

295
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.320
One thing I want to ask you about is you've

296
00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:48.000
testified as to your conclusions as to the position of

297
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.879
Paul when that first shot struck him. Is there anything

298
00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:54.840
about the entrance between itself that supports your conclusion.

299
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:57.399
As to the shape of the entrance.

300
00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.720
Raines it's oblong instead of come completely round. And had

301
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:07.880
he been standing facing that door and took that double

302
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.759
locked buck shot to the middle of a chest I've

303
00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.279
seen it dozens and dozens of times instead of coming

304
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:19.839
out this side. A shot shell or a projectile doesn't

305
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.440
make a ninety degree right. Generally, it's gonna follow the

306
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.279
same path unless it hit something hard enough to make

307
00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.799
it ricochet. It would have went on through his body.

308
00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:31.920
It still would have exited the window. It just wouldn't

309
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.039
have done the damage to his arm and his underarm.

310
00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:37.000
So he had to be canned in this direction. And

311
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:41.240
the wound is not perfectly circular, it's more oblong, which

312
00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:46.119
tells you that he was canned to some degree, all right.

313
00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:49.400
In your view of the crimson evidence, Did you come

314
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:53.720
to any conclusion about the location of the shooter when

315
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:57.920
that first buckshot blast struck Paul in his chest.

316
00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:03.680
It would be hard to say exact, but I can

317
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:07.200
say to a bare minimum the breach of the shotgun

318
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.319
because I don't have the shotgun. I don't know the

319
00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:11.279
length of the barrel that kind of thing, or I

320
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.240
could run it from the door. But the breach of

321
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.720
the shotgun where it ejects the shot shell casing after

322
00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.519
it fires, was somewhere inside the door, because had it

323
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:23.559
been on the other side of the door, of the

324
00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:28.160
shot shell would have been located outside. So depending on

325
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.680
the link of the shotgun, at least I can say

326
00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:36.359
the ejection port was inside the door of the shed, all.

327
00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:37.279
Right, and then the shooter.

328
00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.359
If I have this image up here, which I pologize

329
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.720
is stinks five thirty four, And can you kind of

330
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:49.039
illustrate what you're talking about to the jurys and damage.

331
00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:53.920
Yes, sir, the breach, the ejection port where you load

332
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:58.799
and unload that shotgun, which is a little less than

333
00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:03.880
midpoint from the shoot was inside this doorframe. At least

334
00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:05.279
to some degree inside.

335
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.440
And where were the.

336
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:13.000
Expended shot shells found on this crime.

337
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:17.240
Scene according to the photographs and the original crime scene

338
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.079
behind this door, right?

339
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.480
And is that consistent with your review of the evidence?

340
00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:25.240
As I support your review of the evidence, that that

341
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:26.599
conclusion you just related to.

342
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:28.960
The journey very easily. This is if you look this

343
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.319
room as kind of cluttered. And I measured that door myself.

344
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.799
It had been pressure washed, but the same door found

345
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.920
the same shot shell. Pellet defects in that door an

346
00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.200
inch and a half at the bottom of the door.

347
00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.559
There's plenty of room for a shot shell to bounce

348
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.720
and roll under the door, so I have no reason

349
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.640
to believe it didn't end up there because of the

350
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:50.720
location of the shooting.

351
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.960
So one thing we learned so far that is absolutely

352
00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.759
horrific to me is that Paul was shot in that

353
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.720
little bitty feed room at pretty much point blank range,

354
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:08.000
so close in fact, that the wadding from the shotgun shell,

355
00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.559
which doctor Kinzie explained in the previous clip, it was

356
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:16.720
stuck under Paul's arm. That means the shotgun was almost

357
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:22.000
pressed against him when it was fired. Yet he lived.

358
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:27.000
That first shot hits Paul in the chest and exits

359
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:33.680
under his underarm. Then those pellets blew through the back

360
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.839
window of the feed room. Nine pellets from a double

361
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.720
eye buck shotgun shell right in the chest, and this

362
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:49.359
young man took it and was still alive. Then he

363
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.319
mentioned those ninety degree blood droplets, which due to that,

364
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.720
he determined that after the first shot, Paul actually did

365
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:02.319
not fall. He started walking towards that door. He knows

366
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.839
this because the blood was draining down Paul's arm, not

367
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.200
off to the side of his arm, meaning he did

368
00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:15.160
not fall after that first shot. Then he saw the footprints. Now,

369
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.480
let's stop and think about that for a minute. This

370
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:23.319
is Elix's son. What kind of monster would you have

371
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:29.039
to be to shoot your own son at point blank

372
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:34.759
range with a shotgun loaded with double eye butt big

373
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:39.119
pellets right in the fucking chest.

374
00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:43.960
Then, after blowing nine holes in your.

375
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:51.480
Own son from those pellets, he stumbles towards you, still alive,

376
00:21:53.279 --> 00:22:03.359
and you shoot him again. It's unconscionable. Well, what about

377
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:08.200
that fatal shot? How did that occur? Here's doctor Kinzie

378
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.200
explaining just that.

379
00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:15.599
Doctor Kenzy Almoche, what's been marked as five three five

380
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.519
five three six five three seven and five three eight

381
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:34.279
states exhibits and see if you generally recognize those images.

382
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:40.640
Yes, sir, I do, all right, and generally explain to

383
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:41.880
the journey what these images are.

384
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:43.400
And then we'll talk about them specifically.

385
00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.839
Those are images at the door that I've added some

386
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:52.920
visual enhancements to help the reader understand the flight path

387
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:58.240
of the second shot and the different elements that I

388
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:00.839
looked at and determining where the shoe was for the

389
00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:02.319
second or the fatal shot.

390
00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:04.200
To Paul, all right, you're run her this time.

391
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:06.759
It offers states five three, five, five, three six, five

392
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.039
three seven and five three eight in evidence.

393
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:11.759
I believe without abjection, no objection, they admit it.

394
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:17.319
All right, let's look first at five three five and

395
00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.759
before we get to that, uh, generally describe again to

396
00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:25.880
the jury your conclusion as to that second injury suffered

397
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.480
by Paul, the fatal shot, as you've described it.

398
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:34.480
Well. The first thing is, once Paul received that second shot,

399
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.640
he never walked again. He never made any movement. Any

400
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.519
movement he made was involuntary, and it was due to

401
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.240
gravity pulling his body down to the ground. When you

402
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.680
sustain an injury to your brain like that, that ceases

403
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.920
all movement. So he was found outside the feed door.

404
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.359
He fell over forward after sustaining that movement. Some some

405
00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.400
wounds are fatal later you can actually see one that

406
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.000
receives a fatal wound, and I've seen them run one

407
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.240
hundred yards. They can move for a little while. This

408
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.720
is not that type of wound. Once he received this wound,

409
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:11.519
it ceased all movement.

410
00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:14.920
Right, And did you I I'm gonna put attachment excuse me,

411
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:19.200
stage five thirty five up on the screen and tell

412
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.200
the jury what those particular image for flags.

413
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:24.039
Please, yeah, sir, if you can look at the green

414
00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:28.039
funnel that I've added just visually. If you look at

415
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:33.160
that green funnel, that is approximately the shot shell path,

416
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.359
the shot path from the shot shell after it did

417
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:39.759
the injuries to Paul, or the direction of the shot

418
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:44.160
from the shot shell. And I determined that by shot

419
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.799
shell pellet defects that are still in the door, even

420
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:50.079
though the door had been cleaned. I went and looked

421
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.599
at it myself, run my own measurements, took the width

422
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:58.079
of the door. I took Paul's approximate height. It's listed

423
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:00.880
as several different things DMV. He shows him at five

424
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:04.680
six the pathologists listed him, I believe at five point nine,

425
00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:07.079
so I had to split the difference. I went somewhere

426
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:12.599
in the middle. Then I deducted the distance between the

427
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:15.119
top of your head and the top of your shoulder,

428
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.720
so I took another foot off. Then I took the

429
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:19.839
width of the door. And it's one other thing I

430
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:22.720
looked at, and that was a void pattern that's on

431
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.400
the doorframe of the door. A void patterns caused by

432
00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:31.759
something being there. When the blood and biological materials are

433
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.400
let we call it a blood letting from the wound.

434
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.640
And there's a void pattern, which tells me something was

435
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:45.279
in that way, and because of the narrow door, in

436
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:47.799
my opinion, it was Paul. So that's what caused that

437
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.319
void pattern on that door. So I used all of that,

438
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.079
and I used a dial rod, and I used a

439
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.960
protractor on the doorknob side of that doorframe and I

440
00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:00.559
ran it up and that's what helped me miss established

441
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:02.519
the angle of that shot pattern.

442
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:03.200
Right.

443
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.680
And we're gonna use the images to kind of talk

444
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:07.799
about that a little bit more specifically. But quickly, I

445
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:10.920
want to show you five three nine, five forty and

446
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:12.440
see if you recognize these images.

447
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:14.920
Yes, sir, I do.

448
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:16.640
Uh.

449
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.680
Five point forty is my photograph when I visited the scene,

450
00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:25.240
and five point thirty nine is also my photograph, and

451
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:28.920
it shows that top hinge of that door is approximately

452
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.359
seventy two inches at the top of the at the

453
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.160
top of the hinge. All right, your.

454
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:36.440
Runner, this time i'd moved in ovens to play for that.

455
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:40.240
Judgment stage five three nine and five forty O caestionable.

456
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:40.920
Good, admit it?

457
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.119
All right, let's uh, if you could, I ask you

458
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:44.839
to stuff down again.

459
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.160
I know I just sent you back there, but come

460
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.400
on now, tell me whether this image reflects if you

461
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:50.960
want to place.

462
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:56.000
Yes, sir, these are thirty six inch standard yellow yard sticks.

463
00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.400
We use them to measure, uh, certain things. And it

464
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:02.960
right here is the top of the top hinge as

465
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:05.720
a three hinge door. And this is the top of

466
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.640
the hinge, and then four inches above this are where

467
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.519
those shot pellet defects were that I used to figure

468
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:13.200
out my angle.

469
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:17.559
All right, I'm looking at five forty. It took this

470
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:18.440
particular image.

471
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.160
I took this image, so this will have been long after.

472
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.240
This has been long after the actual event occurred.

473
00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.279
Its right, this was last December, Yes, sir, all right,

474
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:29.240
and tell the jury whether the summers reflects.

475
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.079
You can still see the pellet defects in the door,

476
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:37.319
and this is the approximate center of it here, so

477
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.200
that's four inches above seventy two. That's approximately seventy six

478
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:43.319
inches on an eight inch door.

479
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:47.559
I'm gonna show you States five, three, six and explain

480
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:49.680
to the jury what this is and in particular how

481
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:54.519
that's relevant to your conclusion about the angling which Paul

482
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:57.000
suffered the fatal head one.

483
00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:00.599
This is the original crime scene pictures, and this is

484
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:02.880
where the pellets took their path. This is where they

485
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:04.720
struck and did damage to the door. And you can

486
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:08.000
actually still see the dents that are documented in my photograph.

487
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:10.799
You can see them in the original crime scene. This

488
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:16.640
is a concentration of blood that's caused by the brain

489
00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:19.799
exiting Haul's body in the path of the shot shells.

490
00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:23.519
And then you also have biological material hair and blood

491
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.839
here at the top of the doorframe. And that's where

492
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:31.599
I drew my conclusion. At some time those body parts

493
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:35.720
made contact with these sections of the door, and my

494
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:39.720
opinion is that it's hit here, hit here, and then

495
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:40.319
landed on.

496
00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:43.759
The sidewalk looking at the States five point thirty seven.

497
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:46.839
Can you explain.

498
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.839
Whether the jerry saying in this image and how it

499
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:52.880
relates to your opinion about the manner in which Paul.

500
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:57.720
Suffered a fatal woman I can with a major blood

501
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.240
letting in spa, doctor Kinson, let me ask you this

502
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:04.839
cougium the last ask you to set just a hair.

503
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.039
So that's the jurors over here can see what you're.

504
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.799
What you're saying, Yes, sir, with a shotgun wound, you

505
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:14.200
know you've got one hundreds, well not hundreds, you've got

506
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.359
over a hundred pellets that are making damage. It's not

507
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.759
like a projectile, a single projectile from a pistol or

508
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:24.640
a rifle, so there's mass damage and it it throws

509
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:28.319
body fluids and blood in several different directions, but they

510
00:29:28.359 --> 00:29:31.559
follow the path when I mentioned that it was a

511
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:34.640
void pattern. This is the last blood drop. You can

512
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.680
see it in the photograph that I can see, and

513
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:45.559
it's it's a proximately five foot right there. And this

514
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.039
is not green tape. That is a digital effect I

515
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.319
put on the photograph to show the void I was

516
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.880
talking about. So it's sometime it's my opinion that pauls

517
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.839
up against that door, are real close to that door

518
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:00.519
to keep that blood from striking the door a point

519
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:01.920
in time that he was shot.

520
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.920
All right, and the green tape reflects that blood pie

521
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:07.119
or that void area that.

522
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:09.799
Is consistent with Paul blocking that area.

523
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:12.240
Is yes, or digital tape, it's not really tape.

524
00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:12.359
All right.

525
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:15.440
Yes, So that's that's been added to yes, sir, okay

526
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:17.319
to illustrate your opinion, Yes, sir.

527
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:18.079
All right.

528
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:20.759
And then five thirty eight, I'm gonna show you this

529
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:24.400
image and again if you can point out what's been

530
00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:25.799
added and how this.

531
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:29.400
Relates to the conclusion that you're offering to the journey, Yes, sir.

532
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.119
One thing that I looked at to determine that it

533
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.079
happened in the doorway and a little bit outside the doorway,

534
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:41.599
more outside than inside. You don't just look for the

535
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:44.359
presence of biological material and blood. You look for the

536
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:48.279
absence of biological material in blood. Here at the top,

537
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.599
it didn't have a scale or a ruler, so I

538
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:54.079
can't tell you exactly, but looking at some of these

539
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:57.759
other objects, I was able to scale it approximately four

540
00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:01.160
inches up here you have a void, so I know

541
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:05.119
that it happened. The second wound happened far enough outside

542
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:09.319
of that doorframe that that actual frame kept the biological

543
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:13.599
material from hitting at the very top right here. I

544
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:17.599
also looked at these items. You got some medication of

545
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.400
canine medication or some cleaning materials and that kind of thing.

546
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:25.039
Up here. You can see all the spatter at the

547
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:29.119
front of those containers. And then we got what I

548
00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:32.880
call a demarcation line right here here, and I drew

549
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:37.079
it through most of these cans, and that separates the

550
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.680
blood the blood contaminated area in the clean area. So

551
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.240
that tells me that it was at least forward of

552
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.839
the angle on those containers. And that's why I believe

553
00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:52.839
he was shot. The second wound happened just outside the doorframe,

554
00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:55.000
but his feet were probably still in the doorframe.

555
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:56.920
A right, and just quickly a point of the journey,

556
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:59.119
we can we see part of the doorframe in this

557
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.759
particular arm, yes, sir, right here.

558
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:04.920
All right.

559
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:11.720
Once I've been going back now to States five thirty five,

560
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:13.319
and just from the record, we were just looking at

561
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:15.680
States five thirty eight and five thirty seven.

562
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:17.519
Going back to.

563
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.759
State's five thirty five, did you reach a conclusion as

564
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.839
to the location of the shooter on that second fatal

565
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:27.319
shot that Paul suffered to his head.

566
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:29.319
Yes, sir, I did, all right, And explain that to

567
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.960
the jury if you would please. The shooter was right here,

568
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.119
if you're facing that door, to the right of the

569
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:38.960
doorway outside.

570
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:42.720
And would you have expected there to be in that

571
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:48.960
particular range any sort of biological evidence in that area

572
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.240
in proximity to the shooter, Yes.

573
00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:52.599
Sir, I would.

574
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:55.839
With the doorframe that potentially blocked any of that.

575
00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:59.480
As well, it would block some And just depending on

576
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:03.240
the pass positioning, how much of the body of the

577
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:07.720
shooter was exposed, because you know, once you have that

578
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:12.759
kind of catastrophic injury, it's real, real fine blood, blood

579
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:17.559
particles and biological fluids that go in all directions. And

580
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:21.000
the closer the shooter was to the muzzle to the

581
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:27.480
exit end of that firearm, the more stuff you would expect.

582
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:31.359
Let me ask you this and your expert opinion.

583
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:36.160
Is there any way that Paul's fatal head injury came

584
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:39.359
from the top in a contact fashion or a close fashion.

585
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:41.720
No, sir, I see no possible way for that.

586
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:44.119
And explain your conclusion in that regard to the jury

587
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:46.319
from the clas what factored way agains that and.

588
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:48.640
Your act working well. Number one, I don't know of

589
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:52.119
a way to mimic this blood evidence on this door,

590
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:58.559
that pattern where that shot traveled through Paul's shoulder, into

591
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:01.519
his jaw, into his brain, and then took a path

592
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.440
up and placed the biological material here at the top

593
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:06.880
of the door. If he was shot in the head,

594
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:09.440
then you'd have biological material out here on the ground

595
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.760
or at least going down, you know, on the sidewalk

596
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.320
in front of him, and it would be different than

597
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:20.280
just free pouring blood. You would see this pattern, and

598
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:23.840
you would see those high velocity blood droplets there on

599
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:26.719
the ground. And plus the shooter would have to be

600
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.079
on the roof to shoot down into him, but you

601
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:31.440
wouldn't have this on the door.

602
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:36.039
And your extra openion that you see any support or

603
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:38.920
evidence on this crime scene that could support that the

604
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:43.719
injuries suffered by Paul were in any manner a suicide.

605
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.039
Or self inflected.

606
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:50.159
I don't see the possibility, knowing that it's not a

607
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:56.519
contact shot gun wound. And I'm fairly strong, and I'm

608
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:58.920
bigger than Paul was, and I don't know of any

609
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:03.239
way you could hold that shot gun out and shoot

610
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.480
yourself in that direction at that angle and put that

611
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.119
biological material on top of that door like that. I

612
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:11.199
don't think it's possible.

613
00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.320
All right, thank you. Now let me ask you this,

614
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:17.679
excuse me.

615
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:24.760
The second one, the fatal one that Paul suffered to

616
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:26.760
his head.

617
00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:28.920
Was that buck shot or was that bird shot?

618
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.239
The second wound was bird shot?

619
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:31.800
All right?

620
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.440
And can you describe to the jury the difference between

621
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:37.360
the composition of a buck shot round as a relation

622
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:38.320
to the pellets.

623
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.239
And a bird shot round, Yes, sir, I can, all right.

624
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:43.159
I think to that with buckshot, you've got a number

625
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:48.760
of larger pellets, approximately thirty to thirty six caliber pellets,

626
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.480
and you've got fewer of them. They're made for bringing

627
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:57.320
down larger game. So in the typical double lop buck shot,

628
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.960
you're gonna have nine pellets in your typical number two.

629
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:07.239
And it's called many things, you know. The typical person

630
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:11.159
calls it bird shot, bird shot, chill shot, steel shot,

631
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:13.960
coated shot. I've heard it call many things, so I

632
00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.760
just typically call it bird shot. But in this particular shot,

633
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:20.599
there's approximately one hundred and fifty to one hundred and

634
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:25.000
fifty six pellets in that dry lock shot shell. So

635
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:28.280
that's the difference. With the buckshot, you've got fewer and

636
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:31.400
they're larger, and with the bird shot you've got many

637
00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:41.360
and that they're greater. They for bringing down winged animals, squirrels, rabbits, dove, quail, turkey, duck.

638
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:44.480
I mean just depending on the number shot. That's what

639
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:45.840
that's for, right.

640
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:48.639
And about how many approximately bird shot I might be

641
00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:50.360
in an average shotgun show.

642
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:52.960
The literature says that it's one hundred and fifty six

643
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:54.800
and a dry lock. I cut one open and I

644
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:56.880
only counted one hundred and fifty, but that may have

645
00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:01.880
been human error. Round HUNTERFID Yes, sir, in.

646
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.159
Your expert opinion, when you have bird shot, is there

647
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:09.199
a forensic value to collecting every single pellet or can

648
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:11.360
you explain those concepts to the jury When you're dealing

649
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:12.199
with bird shot.

650
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:17.599
I always try to collect enough that the firearms examiner

651
00:37:18.199 --> 00:37:21.760
can weigh it and he can have a good representative

652
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:27.199
sample of what was used to cause this injury. With

653
00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:30.000
a projectile or a bullet, you have what's called lands

654
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.280
and grooves markings, rifling. Some people call it rifling, and

655
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.239
it's caused from that projectile spinning as it goes down

656
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.079
the barrel. You don't have that in a shotgun, and

657
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:43.400
a pellet is so small that you couldn't probably couldn't

658
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.079
find it if you could have it in a shotgun.

659
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.360
So in my opinion, there's no forensic value as long

660
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:53.840
as you have enough to determine what type of shot

661
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:56.480
or what type of shell and the weight of it.

662
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.360
In your opinion, was the and you've talked about this,

663
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:05.199
but was the shooter when that fatal shot was fired

664
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:08.000
inside or outside of that doorframe?

665
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:11.239
The second shot the second shot? Yes, sir, it was

666
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:12.440
outside the doorframe.

667
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:14.960
And where was that second shot shell located?

668
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:17.039
It was also located under the door.

669
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:20.400
All right, And does that still consistent with your opinion?

670
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:21.079
Absolutely?

671
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:22.960
And can you explain that to the jury Plice.

672
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.519
Yes, sir. Like I mentioned earlier, the ejection port on

673
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:29.960
a shotgun. Typically there are left handed shotguns, but typically

674
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:32.559
the majority of shotguns, the ejection port is on the

675
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:36.000
right side. So as long as that shooter had it

676
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:40.559
at an angle and had that ejection port pointed toward

677
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.800
the door, even just the least little bit, that would

678
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.320
give plenty of opportunity for that shot shell to be

679
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:47.960
ejected and go inside that.

680
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:52.519
Door before we move on from Paul, I would and

681
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.480
if you could just use me as a mannequin, but

682
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:57.920
can you sort of describe to me your conclusions about

683
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.119
the positioning of the of Paul when he suffered that

684
00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:04.800
fail head word and just how the trajectory of that

685
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.199
worm and that shot as you've described and as a

686
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:09.840
supportive by the evidence, as you said.

687
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.599
Can I describe it and demonstrate.

688
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:14.000
Yeah, jurors can see him.

689
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:20.199
The second woman, as I mentioned, went in his arm

690
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:25.800
and calls an injury here a large entrance, exit entrance,

691
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:29.679
and then of course exit here. So it had to

692
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:35.079
be typically with the kind of non fatal wound Paul

693
00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:39.480
suffered to his chest in his arm. It's my belief

694
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:43.719
that now his five foot eight frame is dipping or

695
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.960
favoring that arm, because as you know, that's over twenty

696
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.280
something entrances and exits. I believe it would have hurt him.

697
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.280
I believe he would have been in pain, and I

698
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:56.679
believe he would have been somewhat effected. And the reason

699
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.599
I believe that is because I've got the ninety degree

700
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:03.800
blood drops moving really really slow. If he wasn't feeling it,

701
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:05.719
or if it hadn't affected him in some way. I

702
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:08.719
believe his youthfulness would have allowed him to get out

703
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:11.960
of there faster. But he's moving real slow to the door,

704
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:15.280
so that's going to drop that angle just a couple

705
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.920
of inches and I can demonstraight now.

706
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:23.400
All right, And if we didn't make sure that jerk.

707
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:30.599
Can see, yes, sir, that woman went in approximately right here.

708
00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:38.960
It traveled in, out, in and out in a straight line,

709
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:42.880
in a straight line, so it always goes in a

710
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:43.519
straight line.

711
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:46.920
And then when you're pressing the doll stick there and

712
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:50.280
you're showing the trajectory of the way or not implying.

713
00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:51.760
That was a contact wing, No, sir, I'm not.

714
00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:54.679
I'm not implying its contact. I'm just showing the level

715
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:55.119
of the woman.

716
00:40:55.639 --> 00:40:59.880
All right, Well, I'm thinking about it. Weren't to pause

717
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.199
to didn't show evidence of stippling.

718
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:05.440
Yes, sir, right, and just very quickly. What is stippling.

719
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:10.599
Commonly referred to as tattooing. It's particles and material that's

720
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:13.719
in that shell that don't burn up because it's superheated

721
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.599
at the time that the powder charge ignites. It doesn't explode,

722
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:23.239
It ignites and burns rapidly and that's unburnt particles of

723
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:27.719
powder and other contents of that shell. They're hot, and

724
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:31.000
when they hit the body they call stippling, or in

725
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:34.320
the old days they called it tattooing, And that's basically

726
00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:35.559
what it is. It works as an.

727
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:41.000
Ink looking at this particular image, falls about five feet

728
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:44.320
in the feed room. When he suffers the first one, correct, Yes, sir,

729
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:46.440
that is correct, And then he moves towards the door.

730
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:47.239
Is that correct?

731
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:49.760
That is correct, and suffers the second one somewhere near

732
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:51.000
the doorframe, on the inside of it.

733
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:54.760
Yes, sir, with his shoulder just outside that doorframe.

734
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.400
And when he suffers that second one, what happens to Paul?

735
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:02.239
He falls immediately where does he call? He falls outside

736
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:05.000
the feed room.

737
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.480
So there you have it. If the theory that Alex

738
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:14.480
Murdall killed his son is true, that means after Paul

739
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.840
was stumbling toward his father, point blank shot in the chest,

740
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:25.559
nine pellets, still alive, Alex Murdall points that shotgun at

741
00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:33.639
him again, but this time blows his brains out of

742
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:43.320
his own son's head. Horrific. What a fucking monster. Now

743
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:49.960
what about Maggie? What happened there? Well, here is doctor

744
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.320
Kinzie's spinosis on that.

745
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:53.280
Let's move on.

746
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:56.159
Now let's talk a little bit if we can about

747
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:59.639
the injuries to Magian Murdock, and if you could start

748
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:03.599
out reminding the jury of the injuries that she suffered,

749
00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:06.639
and then let's talk about your conclusions as to the

750
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:08.280
manner and the order in which.

751
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:08.880
Those were suffering.

752
00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:10.400
Yes, sir, all right, so it's good.

753
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:12.920
Just a remind us again of those injuries and if

754
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:14.960
you could go ahead and describe them in the order

755
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:18.119
that your expert opinion they were suffered.

756
00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:23.840
Yes, sir. Miss Maggie Murdoch suffered three non fatal injuries

757
00:43:25.239 --> 00:43:30.519
from a firearm. One was through her wrist, one was

758
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:35.159
her left upper thigh above the knee. One was at

759
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:38.679
her abdomen here and it exited somewhere around her kidneys.

760
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:41.519
Now I'm not that kind of doctor. I can't tell

761
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:43.960
you all the damage it did inside all those organs

762
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:46.400
and things, but it ran a straight line through her body.

763
00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:49.519
This one on her left leg and this one on

764
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:54.079
her mid section were approximately the same angle, and they

765
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:57.920
were really really close in distance. One had stippling that

766
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:01.719
said that it was a foot closer than the other,

767
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:05.880
but that would probably fit This was either a total, separate,

768
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:08.760
non fatal wound, or it could have been a continuation

769
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:13.679
of one of the two fatal wounds. Her fatal wounds were.

770
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:19.119
She had an abrasion or burn on the left side

771
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:25.960
of her abdomen. From the outside end, that bullet followed

772
00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:28.559
a straight path. It entered the end of her breast

773
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.280
and did extensive damage to the end of her breast,

774
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.960
entered her left jaw, side of her face area, and

775
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:39.920
went into her brain. That's the first fatal injury, and

776
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:43.800
it was immediate, and she dropped right where she was at.

777
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.760
I saw no evidence that her body had been manipulated,

778
00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:48.800
moved or rolled over.

779
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:53.239
The second fatal injury was down into her head and

780
00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:55.880
it actually did what in the day they call a

781
00:44:55.960 --> 00:45:00.119
keyhole injury. Just from appearances, the entrance and exit in

782
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.079
the top of her head was so close. It made

783
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:05.679
one big injury. And then it entered into her upper

784
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:08.039
shoulders and went down into her body.

785
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:10.320
That would have also been a fatal wound, but it

786
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.159
was second in my opinion. That one came second.

787
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.679
All right, let's uh, let's talk about that a little

788
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:22.519
bit in a little bit more detail. Those first two wounds, uh,

789
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.880
that that you described. Uh, you believe those are the

790
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:26.719
first two ones she.

791
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.960
Suffered, yes, or I possibly three. I can't tell you

792
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:32.000
much about this because the arm could have been moving,

793
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:32.960
or it could have been here.

794
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:35.960
There's all right, Well, let's talk about the thigh wound

795
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.599
and the abdomen wound. Can you did you have any

796
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:42.519
conclusions about, uh, the location of the shooters? Those two

797
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:46.519
wounds were usufer.

798
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:46.960
Yes, sir, did all right, and explain that to the

799
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:47.559
DIRTHY went.

800
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:01.280
A little bit more right there, Yeah, left leg out

801
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:07.960
O little bits about here and here, here and.

802
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:12.079
Here, And in your opinion, were those two shots fired

803
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:15.440
at in fairly quick secession around the same time.

804
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:17.960
I think it would have been really, really difficult to

805
00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:21.559
get a similar angle if they weren't. All the shooter

806
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:23.400
had to do is raise the weapon or lower the

807
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:26.239
weapon and you're still on the same plane.

808
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:29.920
And those wounds to the abdomen and to the thigh

809
00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:31.400
reflect the presence of stippling.

810
00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:31.920
They did.

811
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:34.960
And what does that indicate to you about the distance

812
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.599
between Maggie and the shooter when those wounds were suffered.

813
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:39.239
I guess four or five feet.

814
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:41.000
Fairly close, Yes, sir.

815
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:41.239
All right?

816
00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:46.000
And after those two wounds were suffered, and again we'll

817
00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:48.119
put aside the wrist wind for a bet.

818
00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:52.119
What would have happened after that? In your expert and.

819
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:54.000
In my opinion a bare minimum, she would have been

820
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:58.840
over She would have been in pain. I believe sometime

821
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:02.679
in close props she fell to the ground and that's

822
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.960
when the first fatal wound was delivered.

823
00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:07.119
Would she have been prone on the ground or still

824
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:09.079
somewhat raised by the ground, or and have been over

825
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:11.440
position when that first fatal one was suffered.

826
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.360
In my opinion, from the angle, she would have been

827
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:18.440
on her knees and had at least one hand on

828
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:18.960
the ground.

829
00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:23.719
Those first two shots. Well, let me ask you this.

830
00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:28.599
There are obviously six shellcases three hundred blackout that were

831
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:31.079
used to murder Maggie Murdock found of the scene.

832
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:31.639
Is that correct?

833
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:32.239
That is correct?

834
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:35.800
Explain to the jury is what conclusions, if any, can

835
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:39.199
you draw about the location of those shellcases, if anything?

836
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:43.519
Once again, just like with the shot done, I'm not

837
00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:46.119
saying it doesn't exist, but I don't think there are

838
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:51.880
many left handed ar platforms, so generally speaking, the ejection

839
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:55.519
ports gonna be on the right side. I own seven uh,

840
00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.559
some of them throw it the shell case and a

841
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:01.960
little bit forward, some throw it a little bit back,

842
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.880
some throw it perfect ninety degrees to the ejection. For

843
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.280
if they were always uniform where they come out, if

844
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:11.639
you'd go target practice, you could place a bucket there

845
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:13.800
and all your shelf cases would drop in the bucket

846
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:15.360
and you would have to bend over and pick up

847
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:19.360
your shell cases. Unfortunately, that's not the real world. So

848
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.039
I don't put a lot into that unless I have

849
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:25.119
the actual weapon, and we can test a weapon with

850
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:28.119
the same ammunition, and you can generally get an idea

851
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:30.840
where that shell case is gonna go. So no, sir,

852
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.880
I don't pay a lot of attention to it. And

853
00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:36.440
I definitely don't think the sequence of from one end

854
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:38.880
to the other, or from this end to this end

855
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:41.199
means that's necessarily the movement of the shooter.

856
00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:45.719
All right, you said that when she suffered that first

857
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.920
fed a word. In your opinion, I mean she would

858
00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:50.559
have been over and perhaps been on her hands and knees.

859
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:51.519
Is that correct, Yes, sir?

860
00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:53.239
All right, I'm gonna get down on my hands and knees,

861
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:54.639
and if you could come around here and kind of

862
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:57.320
show me where the trajectory of that wound would have

863
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:00.440
gone the first one that was failed for my murdock,

864
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:01.960
I guess you can come a honey, yes.

865
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:16.239
Sir, all right.

866
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:21.000
The shooter was right here, approximately right here.

867
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:24.800
All right, and show us the trajectory as it went

868
00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:27.119
threw Maggie into her brain.

869
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:31.320
Yes, it burnt or raised her stomach outside to inside,

870
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:36.119
went through the end of her breast, into her jaw,

871
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:37.840
and then into her brain.

872
00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:41.000
And what would have been the effect on her once

873
00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:42.039
that shot was suffered.

874
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:43.920
She would have immediately fell down with.

875
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:45.599
The front of her body, all right.

876
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:48.000
And that is the position her arms were in the

877
00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:49.719
original crime scene photographs.

878
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:51.239
And while I'm down here so I don't have to

879
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.239
get up again, tell me about the fatal shot, the

880
00:49:53.239 --> 00:49:55.519
position of the shears, the evidence in the case too.

881
00:49:55.719 --> 00:49:58.039
The second shot was not as close, but it still

882
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:04.239
wasn't a long distance. It was approximately here into the

883
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:05.000
crown of the head.

884
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:10.800
And used a dallastic to show that injury that Maggie suffered.

885
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:20.920
In out in in that line.

886
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.480
Okay, thank you.

887
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:28.079
You need to go to the dropping her after this,

888
00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:29.800
all right.

889
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:34.159
The first shot, the first fatal shot that I would have

890
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:35.360
immediately been fatal.

891
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:36.440
Is that correct, yes, sir.

892
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:39.639
The second shot I also would have been fatal had

893
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:41.519
she still been loving, but in your opinion, she was not.

894
00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:41.920
At that point.

895
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:46.280
Is that correct, yes, sir? All right. She may have

896
00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:48.400
had a sign of life, but there was no movement.

897
00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:50.760
She was not capable of any movement at that time.

898
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:59.880
Maggie Murdall shot three times with a three hundred blackout rifle,

899
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:06.360
big bullet, y'all, and took them. The theory was in

900
00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:10.480
an effort to save her son, then shot a fourth

901
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:16.880
time in the chest, which killed her. However, that monster

902
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:23.639
did this, walked up to her after four shots, and

903
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:29.119
just to make sure she's dead, shoots her point blank

904
00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:35.039
in the head. How in the hell could you do

905
00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:40.320
that to your own wife, the mother of your children. Monster.

906
00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:47.920
This woman was running to her son when that first

907
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:52.119
fatal shot hit her on her knees after three shots,

908
00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:56.239
struggling to get up one hand on the ground, angled

909
00:51:56.800 --> 00:52:03.519
right to where her son was laying outside the feed. Now,

910
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:07.519
another thing that came up during this line of questioning

911
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:10.679
was Paul's cell phone, which was found sitting in the

912
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:13.000
back of Paul's pocket.

913
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:16.159
Well, I'll let you hear doctor.

914
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:19.639
Kinsey's opinion on the placement of that cell phone. Here's

915
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:20.079
that clip.

916
00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:23.960
Let me see if you recognize this image. I do,

917
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.639
all right, and just generally tell the jury what that is.

918
00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:31.800
It's a cell phone sitting up on the back right

919
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:35.239
hand side pocket of the victim, Paul Murdock.

920
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:40.159
Is this your understanding of how Paul's phone's found at

921
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:41.400
the crimp scene?

922
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:42.599
It is, all right?

923
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:46.480
And did you make any assessment or analysis of whether

924
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:49.360
or not Paul's phone could have popped out.

925
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:52.719
And be found in that position? I did, all right,

926
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:54.440
And can you relate that to the jury please.

927
00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:57.519
It's my opinion that his phone was placed there by

928
00:52:57.559 --> 00:52:58.559
someone else.

929
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:01.119
All right, and tell the jury you're basis for that conclusion.

930
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:05.519
Bois Well, after I mentioned the fatality, the fatal shot,

931
00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:08.920
at that point in time, you have no movement, even

932
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:13.480
involuntary movement, and there's no way Paul could have retrieved

933
00:53:13.519 --> 00:53:15.760
that phone from his pocket and placed it on top

934
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:17.920
of his the back of his pants.

935
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:19.880
And in your opinion, if he had been carrying that

936
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.559
in his hand, could it have landed in that fashion

937
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:24.360
following the fatal shot he suffered?

938
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:28.039
To us half, mathematically, you may could have made it happen,

939
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:30.320
but I don't believe it's possible. I believe the phone

940
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:32.599
would have fell to the ground and it wouldn't have

941
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:35.159
fell behind him, up in the air and landed on him.

942
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:38.920
Now, it's important to mention before we really get into it,

943
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:44.639
that the defense had their own expert on crime scene reconstruction,

944
00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:47.360
a guy by the name of Mike Sutton. Let me

945
00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:52.239
tell you he did not perform well, especially for a

946
00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:56.280
jury in the low country of South Carolina. A really

947
00:53:56.360 --> 00:54:01.199
bad choice for the defense. First was from New York

948
00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:06.280
and kind of very pompous sounding, I guess you could say,

949
00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:09.599
kind of like a note all is how he came

950
00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:14.079
off just the opposite of doctor Kenzie. And one thing

951
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:17.400
he floated and put into the jury's mind was his

952
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:21.920
opinion that two shooters were likely, which if this were true,

953
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:25.639
or if the jury bought that story, it totally blows

954
00:54:26.119 --> 00:54:30.199
the whole case for the prosecution because Myrtall would walk.

955
00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:34.320
Their whole case is built on the fact that Myrdall

956
00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:38.039
was the loan shooter. And I'll be honest with you

957
00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:40.800
and give my opinion on this at the end of

958
00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:44.239
the series. But for now, the prosecution they had their

959
00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:47.559
work cut out for them to unravel the web that

960
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:51.599
Mike Sutton spun on that stand. And the good thing

961
00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:57.800
for them was doctor Kenzie. He totally disagreed with Sutton's assessment.

962
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:01.639
So in this next clip you're gonna hear the prosecution

963
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:05.239
called doctor Kenzie back to the stand as a rebuttal

964
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:12.159
witness to refute what doctor Sutton gave under direct examination,

965
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:16.039
And right from the start, they confront and they try

966
00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:19.480
attempt and I think did a great job of tearing

967
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:25.000
apart Mike Sutton's theory. And here's what that sounded like.

968
00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:28.719
Doctor Kinzie. We're gonna keep our testimony to day narrowly

969
00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:31.360
focused and tailored to a few witnesses that the defense

970
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:34.960
put up this past week. Did you have the opportunity

971
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:37.639
to observe one witness named Michael Sutton, who was a

972
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:39.760
forensic mechanical engineer for the defense?

973
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:40.719
I did.

974
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:43.639
Now, do you recall any of his conclusions or what

975
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:47.480
his main conclusion was regarding the size of the shooter?

976
00:55:48.440 --> 00:55:50.920
I do, what was that conclusion?

977
00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:53.800
Five foot two to five foot four.

978
00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:57.440
I would like, now, Doug, if you would, I would

979
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.840
like for you to publish or cut on on a

980
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:11.960
defense Exhibit one, go to page forty nine. Okay, Now,

981
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:13.400
what I want to do is we're gonna get into

982
00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:18.400
this in just a moment. But they published this into

983
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:22.960
evidence last week. And you recognize these green lines coming out.

984
00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:25.760
Yes, sir, I do, okay?

985
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:27.800
And what do those green lines represent?

986
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:37.159
Those green lines represent a predicted static angle or I

987
00:56:37.239 --> 00:56:41.840
don't know what you would call that trajectory for possible shooters.

988
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:46.360
And Doug, if you would go to page seventy four

989
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:53.360
of this presentation, please you recognize this photo on page

990
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:54.960
seventy four of the defense exhibit.

991
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:55.920
I do.

992
00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:57.800
And what is it?

993
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:02.360
It is mister Sutton pointing a pump action shotgun into

994
00:57:02.440 --> 00:57:03.960
the feed room at Moselle.

995
00:57:04.679 --> 00:57:10.679
Okay. And did mister Sutton make develop his conclusions as

996
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:15.400
to the height of the shooter based on math that

997
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:16.840
he did in this particular case.

998
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:20.880
He said it was trigonometry, But yes, sir, he did.

999
00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:24.920
Based on your many years of law enforcement experienced, education

1000
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:28.960
and training. What is your overall opinion on his conclusions?

1001
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:32.239
I think his intentions are well, but I think his

1002
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:33.440
methods were flawed.

1003
00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:35.880
So what I want to do is I want to

1004
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:39.719
go back. And there were three previous angles that we

1005
00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:40.960
just looked at on the previous slade.

1006
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:42.760
Correct, that is correct.

1007
00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:46.920
And then he also determined an angle here in this photo.

1008
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.440
Correct, that is correct.

1009
00:57:48.559 --> 00:57:50.559
And those are the angles that he used to determine

1010
00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:51.320
the height of the shooter.

1011
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:55.320
Correct, that is correct. And mister Wilson, I don't know

1012
00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:58.000
the totality of what he considered, but that was one

1013
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:00.480
of the elements one of the criteria used.

1014
00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:04.559
Okay, just to refresh the jury's recollection, Doug, if you

1015
00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:07.079
go to page four, it should be State sixty two.

1016
00:58:07.400 --> 00:58:10.679
It's a picture. What is that a picture of?

1017
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.719
That is a picture of what's been described as a quailpin.

1018
00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:18.119
Go to page five, please, and what is that a

1019
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:18.519
picture of?

1020
00:58:18.679 --> 00:58:21.079
That is a close up of that quailpin and it

1021
00:58:21.159 --> 00:58:23.320
has weathered cardboard on the one end.

1022
00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:26.800
Okay, And that, for the record is Exhibit sixty three.

1023
00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:30.159
That that is a picture of. And go to page six,

1024
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:33.519
which should be State sixty four. And what is that

1025
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:35.679
a picture of? That is a close up of what

1026
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:36.519
appears to be.

1027
00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:40.079
A bullet defect or bullet damage in that cardboard.

1028
00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:47.320
Okay. Now, they based their angles at least two angles.

1029
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:50.519
Let's back up. There were two angles taken from this

1030
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:52.800
particular one bullet hole. Why is that.

1031
00:58:53.039 --> 00:58:57.000
There were I believe the original crime scene agent gave

1032
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:03.400
a possibility of two angles of the of the angle

1033
00:59:03.400 --> 00:59:04.960
of impact in the cardboard.

1034
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:10.599
Okay, And what are some things that someone can determine

1035
00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:13.599
from examining a bullet hole in this cardboard?

1036
00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:17.559
Well, the first thing is direction. It lets you know

1037
00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:20.599
that you had one or at least at least one

1038
00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:24.360
projectile fired from that direction. It's a pretty good indicator

1039
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:26.360
for direction. Okay.

1040
00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:28.360
What's another thing that you can determine?

1041
00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:33.280
Sometimes you can determine the angle of impact and whether

1042
00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:38.400
that bullet was affected before it struck that object. And

1043
00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:42.320
what I mean is was it deflected by flash or

1044
00:59:42.360 --> 00:59:45.440
did it hit its target? Or is there an internal

1045
00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:47.960
problem with the weapon that would cause that bullet to

1046
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:49.960
be off center?

1047
00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:53.840
Are you comfortable with the direction that was determined by

1048
00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:56.119
Special Agent Worldy in this particular photo.

1049
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.039
I'm very confident of that direction.

1050
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:02.320
Okay, the defense it's determined that there were two potential angles.

1051
01:00:02.840 --> 01:00:06.400
How confident are you that the methodology using term those

1052
01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:07.480
angles are accurate?

1053
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:11.639
I have zero confidence from this piece of evidence as

1054
01:00:11.679 --> 01:00:13.239
far as establishing angles.

1055
01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:17.519
So that's interesting. You feel good about the direction of

1056
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:20.880
the bullet going into the quailcage, but you have a

1057
01:00:20.920 --> 01:00:24.360
concern about the angle. Correct, that is correct. Do you

1058
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:26.320
have a concern about the angle.

1059
01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:28.920
The angle of impact? Yes, sir, that is correct.

1060
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:32.800
What are two things that could affect the angle of

1061
01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:34.719
impact on a.

1062
01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:38.519
Surface like this cardboard? As I mentioned before, you could

1063
01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:41.639
have that bullet could have hit an object which we

1064
01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:45.159
don't know, or it could be an internal problem with

1065
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:49.320
the firearm that causes it. When you think about if

1066
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:52.599
I could explain, when you think about a quarterback throwing

1067
01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:56.159
a football, they spin that football and it makes it

1068
01:00:56.199 --> 01:00:59.599
stable in flight. Well, a projectile coming out of the

1069
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:04.679
muslim a firearm, a single projectile firearm works the same way.

1070
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:08.440
You've got little lands and grooves in that barrel, and

1071
01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:13.119
as that propellant pushes that projectile down the barrel, it twists.

1072
01:01:13.679 --> 01:01:16.880
Now there's different twists depending on the firearm, but that

1073
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:21.119
twist called rifling most commonly, that's what my grandfather called it.

1074
01:01:21.639 --> 01:01:25.599
But it makes that bullet stable in flight. Anything that

1075
01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:29.199
can throw that projectile off of battery, whether it be

1076
01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:32.960
striking something or a firearm problem, maybe fouling too much

1077
01:01:33.079 --> 01:01:36.239
lead in the barrel. Those kind of things will make

1078
01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:38.920
that bullet off center. Now, it still may go the

1079
01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:44.360
general direction, but the rotation of that projectile could be

1080
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.599
off just a little bit when it strikes the target.

1081
01:01:47.840 --> 01:01:50.840
So good analogy would be alignment getting his hand on

1082
01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:53.440
a football and making it go wobbly, but it keeps going.

1083
01:01:53.679 --> 01:01:54.199
That would work.

1084
01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:58.239
Yes, sir, I'll either us, Doug.

1085
01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:03.199
Could you zoom in on this hole real quick, Doctor Kenzie,

1086
01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:05.000
I'd like to ask you to step down here, and

1087
01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:08.920
for demonstrative purposes, I'd like you to demonstrate how an

1088
01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:13.760
angle of impact can be affected in cardboard with a dowel. Yes,

1089
01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:21.199
describe to the jurney what you've done with this box.

1090
01:02:22.199 --> 01:02:25.679
I've played four strategic holes in this box representing a

1091
01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:31.280
bullet defect in cardboard, as you probably saw in the photographs.

1092
01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:34.360
As a crime scene investigator, we use dow rods to

1093
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:39.039
help determine direction and angle of impact. Now, then they

1094
01:02:39.039 --> 01:02:41.079
can be as simple as a wooden dow rod like

1095
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:43.719
you get at your hardware store, or they make some

1096
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:47.280
real complicating's made out of fiberglass if you can afford it.

1097
01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:50.280
You know, most most agencies and most crime scene teams

1098
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:53.119
will use a fiberglass rod, but the wooden rods, as

1099
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:55.880
long as they're pretty straight and true, they work just

1100
01:02:55.920 --> 01:03:00.360
the same. So if this represents a projectile def fact

1101
01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:04.320
in cardboard, and may I say weathered cardboard, because this

1102
01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:06.960
has been out there at least a year and a

1103
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:10.280
half since this incident took place, you placed that dal

1104
01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:13.679
rod in that defect, and then you can get an

1105
01:03:13.719 --> 01:03:16.599
approximate angle or angle of impact on it. But you

1106
01:03:16.679 --> 01:03:21.440
can definitely get a more confident direction if your shooter's

1107
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:23.760
over here and you're shooting this direction or over here

1108
01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:28.360
a puff or down. But it's not the end all

1109
01:03:28.480 --> 01:03:31.199
be all, and I can explain that to you also.

1110
01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:36.800
Okay, so how could could you demonstrate how we'll back

1111
01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:39.360
up a second and step ways so the jurors can

1112
01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:43.840
see this photo if you would you saw the I

1113
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:45.039
might need you up here.

1114
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:48.719
Calling. I will tone.

1115
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:53.840
You saw the defense experts testimony mister Sutton, I believe

1116
01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:57.400
last week describing this hole. Can you explain to them

1117
01:03:58.039 --> 01:04:01.159
how he determined the angle at impact based on what

1118
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:03.280
he was observing in this bullet entry?

1119
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:04.760
I can this was?

1120
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:06.039
Please please do so for.

1121
01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:10.639
The jury what mister Sutton did with geometry and trigonometry

1122
01:04:10.719 --> 01:04:13.880
and a whole lot of tools, but basically a protractor

1123
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:18.360
as we use when I testified previously, if you had

1124
01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:22.800
a confident bullet defect, you can run a string and

1125
01:04:22.800 --> 01:04:26.320
then put a level or it's a type of protractor.

1126
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:29.480
It's a bullet angle finder on top of that rod,

1127
01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:32.840
and you can get a general angle of impact in

1128
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:36.360
a fixed object. However, this isn't a fixed object.

1129
01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:40.760
He referred to that little mark around three o'clock. What

1130
01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:41.559
did he call that?

1131
01:04:41.719 --> 01:04:44.079
I think he called it a bullet wash?

1132
01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:45.719
Could it be a bullet white?

1133
01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.880
Bullet white? Yeah, it's not a term I used. Okay,

1134
01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:50.679
I'm familiar with it.

1135
01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:54.079
And what was he assuming that bullet white was caused

1136
01:04:54.079 --> 01:04:55.760
by based on the testimony you.

1137
01:04:55.719 --> 01:04:56.880
Heard from the angle?

1138
01:04:57.119 --> 01:05:01.119
He's the same with what the angle of impact? What

1139
01:05:01.159 --> 01:05:02.039
else could cause that?

1140
01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:07.480
As we mentioned, striking the surface beforehand, fouling in the barrel,

1141
01:05:07.719 --> 01:05:11.599
something internal. It just throws the bullet off course a

1142
01:05:11.639 --> 01:05:14.400
little bit. It's not spinning the way it normally spends,

1143
01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:19.119
so when it strikes, it doesn't strike, It doesn't enter

1144
01:05:19.159 --> 01:05:21.239
the way it normally would. It wallers a little bit

1145
01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:22.960
like that football we talked.

1146
01:05:22.679 --> 01:05:25.159
About what about the doll rod.

1147
01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:28.320
Well, the purpose of incertain the dow rod is to

1148
01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:30.440
try to get the best angle or the best direction

1149
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:33.960
you can, and in a perfect world, the angle would

1150
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:38.199
be fairly confident. Like another bullet effect we're going to

1151
01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:43.920
talk about. Remember this is weather con weather cardboard. So

1152
01:05:44.119 --> 01:05:48.039
once that examiner and these rods are not caliber specific either,

1153
01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:51.119
because a crime scene investigator or an examiner can't look

1154
01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:54.039
at a bullet hole and guess what caliber it is.

1155
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:57.679
That's nonsense. So you try to pick the one that

1156
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:00.800
fits the hole the best. And some of the fancy

1157
01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:02.840
kits you get a little shim kit with some little

1158
01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.320
rubber brammet that you can place in there and make

1159
01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:08.000
it fit a little bit better. But more typically you

1160
01:06:08.159 --> 01:06:10.880
just pick the doalrod that's closest to the whole.

1161
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:14.920
Could a dowrod affect the angle of impact?

1162
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:20.440
Upon me inserting this galrod, I can do damage to

1163
01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:23.960
that bullet defect, But more importantly, when I remove it,

1164
01:06:24.039 --> 01:06:27.159
I could do damage. And it's very deceptive damage. It's

1165
01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:30.599
not intentional, but it can damage the angle of impact.

1166
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:34.559
Especially in a soft, unreliable object like cardboard.

1167
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:45.920
You can you can turn it the stand thank you kiss,

1168
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:48.079
you know, I please go ahead.

1169
01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:53.679
What I'm saying. Once a trim scene investigator gets what

1170
01:06:53.719 --> 01:06:57.119
they need, they hit their photographs, their measurements, their direction.

1171
01:06:58.079 --> 01:07:00.760
So now this dow rod's here, and none of us

1172
01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:03.239
know this unless you've got a video of the examiner

1173
01:07:03.320 --> 01:07:07.360
taking that dow rod out. So we don't know what

1174
01:07:07.559 --> 01:07:09.880
direction he or she might have pulled that dow right

1175
01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:12.880
out because she's got her measurement. She's she or here

1176
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:16.679
is not considering someone coming behind them and measuring again

1177
01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:20.760
for something in a piece of cardboard, and we're not

1178
01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:23.639
talking about in wood or sheep rock, which on my cardboard.

1179
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:27.440
If you pull it to the right, you cause that

1180
01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:33.360
same bullet white that we got in a photograph. Likewise,

1181
01:07:33.480 --> 01:07:37.039
if I pull it to the left, now it looks

1182
01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:40.639
like that projectile has entered from a left to right direction.

1183
01:07:41.079 --> 01:07:44.880
And then you can go on and up or down.

1184
01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:50.719
That'll influence the appearance of that of that bullet defect.

1185
01:07:50.840 --> 01:07:54.920
Because you've got an object like cardboard, something that there's

1186
01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:55.760
no confidence in.

1187
01:07:57.079 --> 01:08:10.360
Thank you, you can set that down. So do you

1188
01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:15.119
recall what the defense expert testified to the direction an

1189
01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:18.800
angle of that particular angle of impact.

1190
01:08:19.239 --> 01:08:22.000
I do and what was it? I think one and

1191
01:08:22.199 --> 01:08:23.239
three degrees?

1192
01:08:24.199 --> 01:08:27.560
Do you remember, like was it right to left going up?

1193
01:08:28.159 --> 01:08:30.640
And from what way to what way? What direction to

1194
01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:31.199
what direction?

1195
01:08:33.439 --> 01:08:34.800
Left to right or right to left?

1196
01:08:34.840 --> 01:08:35.039
Right?

1197
01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:36.840
Yes? Or right to left. I have to think about

1198
01:08:36.880 --> 01:08:37.960
the quayopin in my head.

1199
01:08:38.720 --> 01:08:41.479
Are you confident that the direction was correct on this yes, sir,

1200
01:08:41.479 --> 01:08:43.319
I have no reason how to believe the direction.

1201
01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:45.800
I mean that that would have to be a huge

1202
01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:48.359
defect hole for it to throw the direction off.

1203
01:08:48.680 --> 01:08:50.720
How confident are you in the angle of this?

1204
01:08:51.039 --> 01:08:55.479
I have zero confidence in that angle of the of

1205
01:08:55.520 --> 01:08:57.239
the bullet entry.

1206
01:08:57.720 --> 01:08:59.600
Doug. If you could go to page twenty one, which

1207
01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:02.720
I believe the State's exhibit a picture of State's exhibit

1208
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:05.880
thirty eight, can you describe for the jury what that

1209
01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:06.479
is right there?

1210
01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:10.479
Like the first defect, this is also a defect in

1211
01:09:10.520 --> 01:09:12.920
a wooden. It's been described as a doghouse.

1212
01:09:14.600 --> 01:09:17.520
Now you can also determine the angle of impact and

1213
01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:21.319
the direction here correct. I can't What degree of certainty

1214
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:23.479
do you have that they were right in the angle

1215
01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:26.640
of impact and the directions in the doghouse.

1216
01:09:27.079 --> 01:09:30.680
I placed a lot more confidence in this angle because

1217
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:35.319
that wood is fixed it'll show a much truer projection

1218
01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:37.119
of the angle of impact.

1219
01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:43.079
Can you.

1220
01:09:46.479 --> 01:09:49.239
Hold one second? How is this particular? I think you

1221
01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:51.399
just described it, but real quick, how is the dog

1222
01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:54.399
house different from the quelled cage in determining the angle

1223
01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:54.920
of impact?

1224
01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:58.079
Well, the doghouse, if you look at it, is at

1225
01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:02.960
least half inch to three quarters thick, So, like I said,

1226
01:10:03.039 --> 01:10:07.319
you've got a stable, dependable bullet defect. The cardboard is

1227
01:10:07.319 --> 01:10:11.239
two pieces of brown paper with corrugated paper in between

1228
01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:15.920
to cause, you know, for strength purposes. But as I mentioned,

1229
01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:20.720
not only is the cardboard in my opinion, not a

1230
01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:24.079
good substance to shoot into, it's also weathered, so that

1231
01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:25.279
makes it even weaker.

1232
01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:29.159
Doug, can you go to page forty two on this exhibit?

1233
01:10:34.399 --> 01:10:34.720
All right?

1234
01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:35.560
Can you?

1235
01:10:35.680 --> 01:10:37.520
It doesn't have an exhibit number at the top. This

1236
01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:40.359
is a page forty two on defensive Exhibit forty Can

1237
01:10:40.399 --> 01:10:41.760
you describe what this photo is?

1238
01:10:42.279 --> 01:10:46.800
Yes, sir, that is a computer animated drawing of some

1239
01:10:46.920 --> 01:10:51.359
potential trajectories into that quailpin.

1240
01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:55.800
And the two gray boys here, what are they?

1241
01:10:56.159 --> 01:11:01.319
They are? They're two figures that were placed in that

1242
01:11:01.640 --> 01:11:05.119
CAD presentation to represent shooters.

1243
01:11:06.600 --> 01:11:13.760
Go to forty six of the same exhibit, and describe

1244
01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:14.279
what this is.

1245
01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:20.039
This is one animated suspect I guess or shooter placed

1246
01:11:20.079 --> 01:11:24.039
in a similar CAD drawing photograph animation.

1247
01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:36.399
Okay, now go to page forty nine and what is straight?

1248
01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:40.039
Go back, that's the picture I wanted. So there's three

1249
01:11:40.079 --> 01:11:43.359
angles represented in this picture. Correct, there are three angles.

1250
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:46.600
Two of them are from the same hole. Correct, Yes, sir,

1251
01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:48.600
one of them is from the dog house. Correct.

1252
01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:49.399
That is correct.

1253
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:54.640
You aren't relied, You were fairly You believe that the

1254
01:11:54.640 --> 01:11:59.039
doghouse angle is fairly reliable. I do you question the

1255
01:11:59.079 --> 01:12:00.399
qualehouse angle? Correct?

1256
01:12:00.439 --> 01:12:03.800
I placed no confidence in that angle from quail pen.

1257
01:12:06.640 --> 01:12:10.119
Explain for the jury, and you observed the defense expert

1258
01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:13.119
last week talking about this. How did they come to

1259
01:12:13.359 --> 01:12:17.920
determine based on these lines and where these people, where

1260
01:12:17.960 --> 01:12:20.640
these gray figures are placed. How did they come to

1261
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:23.840
determine their heights were between five to two and five

1262
01:12:23.880 --> 01:12:25.920
to four. We'll get to your opinions about that in

1263
01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:28.960
a moment, but just explain for them how the defense

1264
01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:30.279
expert got to that decision.

1265
01:12:31.359 --> 01:12:35.520
The defense expert said he tried plugging in different heights,

1266
01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:41.439
and he had to place those animated figures on a

1267
01:12:41.479 --> 01:12:46.720
plane that line that laser line, and he determined that

1268
01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:51.239
they go back and forth on that plane to achieve

1269
01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:55.359
the defects that are documented by the original crime scene examiner.

1270
01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:00.399
Doug, go to page fifty one real quick, we'll see

1271
01:13:00.399 --> 01:13:10.760
if that stuff. So there's some yellow placards here on

1272
01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:13.920
the ground. You see them, I do, And what do

1273
01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:15.399
those yellow placards represent?

1274
01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:18.960
Cartridge cases that were found on the ground their markers,

1275
01:13:19.039 --> 01:13:21.600
So you know once you find the cartridge cases that

1276
01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:26.079
you put them there for documentation purposes, photography and sketching purposes.

1277
01:13:27.079 --> 01:13:31.840
And why explain to the jury what the defense The

1278
01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:36.439
defense has determined that their angle is based on the

1279
01:13:36.520 --> 01:13:39.279
on the static lins. It's green lights, correct.

1280
01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:41.760
That is correct, back and forth on that one static

1281
01:13:41.840 --> 01:13:44.159
line for one angle and one static line for the

1282
01:13:44.199 --> 01:13:44.760
other angle.

1283
01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:48.439
And they've placed them right there at that particular location.

1284
01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:54.439
Why I think the defense expert was taken into consideration

1285
01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:59.520
the location of the cartridge cases and he was showing

1286
01:13:59.560 --> 01:14:03.520
how it would fit those five foot two animated figures

1287
01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:05.600
that he placed in that presentation.

1288
01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:11.520
Is that your understanding. I'll demonstrate the gray figures are

1289
01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:15.279
holding the firearm and those gray lines represent like a stream,

1290
01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:17.079
they would run up and down.

1291
01:14:17.159 --> 01:14:19.840
Correct, Yes, sir, that was the testimony. You go back

1292
01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:22.119
and forth on this on this green.

1293
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:25.359
Line, okay, and that they would be right here because

1294
01:14:25.439 --> 01:14:29.279
this is where the shell casings are. The shellcasings are ejecting.

1295
01:14:29.319 --> 01:14:32.479
Correct, That is how I understood his Why.

1296
01:14:34.560 --> 01:14:37.000
Always state the question why would they be placed right

1297
01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:42.119
there in that particular location, along that static green line.

1298
01:14:41.680 --> 01:14:44.880
Because they were in proximity to some of the shell casings?

1299
01:14:45.159 --> 01:14:45.439
Okay?

1300
01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:51.359
Can you explain for this jury why their assumptions on

1301
01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:55.960
the math they did are incorrect in determining that the

1302
01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:58.560
shooter had to be between five to two and five four.

1303
01:15:00.039 --> 01:15:03.880
Well, there's a bunch of variables. Variables do matter. They're

1304
01:15:03.960 --> 01:15:07.479
a bunch that you would have to consider. First, you'd

1305
01:15:07.479 --> 01:15:10.039
have to consider this to be a static crime scene,

1306
01:15:10.640 --> 01:15:15.199
very little movement, and when it is movement, it's controlled movement. Second,

1307
01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:17.680
you would have to place some confidence in that angle

1308
01:15:17.720 --> 01:15:22.159
of impact on that cardboard. Third, as I testified in

1309
01:15:22.239 --> 01:15:28.239
my previous testimony, we're not able to test fire or

1310
01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:32.079
with confidence what we know to be the weapon used

1311
01:15:32.079 --> 01:15:36.039
in this situation with the same ammo, and they don't

1312
01:15:36.079 --> 01:15:38.880
throw the AMMO at the same place every time. It

1313
01:15:38.920 --> 01:15:42.720
may be in the general vicinity. But as I said,

1314
01:15:42.760 --> 01:15:45.840
I believe in my previous testimony, if you knew exactly

1315
01:15:45.880 --> 01:15:47.600
where it was going to throw that cartridge case, you

1316
01:15:47.640 --> 01:15:50.600
could carry a bucket with you and sit that bucket in.

1317
01:15:50.640 --> 01:15:53.680
All your cartridge cases would go in the bucket. But

1318
01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:56.680
like we see in the sketch and in the animated drawing,

1319
01:15:56.720 --> 01:16:00.640
those cartridge cases are throughout. They're in a in a

1320
01:16:00.640 --> 01:16:04.439
pretty large little area. And what I also saw that

1321
01:16:04.520 --> 01:16:07.439
I noticed from this cad drawing is this cartridge cases

1322
01:16:07.479 --> 01:16:11.000
to the left of these animated shooters, which means that

1323
01:16:11.119 --> 01:16:14.800
sometime at least two of these shots were fired with

1324
01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:20.039
the shooter far to the left and not on this

1325
01:16:20.359 --> 01:16:22.560
static green line.

1326
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:24.439
Could you come down here real quick and point out

1327
01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:26.479
what you're talking about as it relates to the location

1328
01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:27.359
of the shellcasing.

1329
01:16:27.720 --> 01:16:46.119
Yes, sir, I'm not sure if this was a shellcase.

1330
01:16:46.119 --> 01:16:50.960
And here, mister Wilson, but right here that is a shellcase,

1331
01:16:51.199 --> 01:16:55.039
and it would not eject this direction in any situation

1332
01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:59.840
depicted here in the presentation. It's not a left handed

1333
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:02.359
Nobody has ever testified it was a left hand in

1334
01:17:02.640 --> 01:17:05.600
AR fifteen, And like I said, they're kind of uncommon.

1335
01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:07.840
And if it is, and that's the left hand, and

1336
01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:10.279
then we couldn't explain the majority of them being to

1337
01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:15.800
the right. So that's what makes this static line flaw.

1338
01:17:16.439 --> 01:17:19.520
Thank you. In another photograph you can actually see a

1339
01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:23.840
larger area of Cart's cases back here. Thank you.

1340
01:17:27.600 --> 01:17:31.720
Let's assume for a minute that the angles are correct,

1341
01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:34.760
and they very well could be correct.

1342
01:17:34.880 --> 01:17:35.399
They could be.

1343
01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:41.039
Why is the defensive theory as to the height of

1344
01:17:41.119 --> 01:17:44.439
the shooter represented in this picture still wrong?

1345
01:17:44.479 --> 01:17:49.439
What else could affect it? Distance and height? Would you

1346
01:17:49.520 --> 01:17:49.760
like to.

1347
01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:52.279
Take a moment to demonstrate for the jury what you're talking.

1348
01:17:52.039 --> 01:17:55.319
About weapon position? Yes, sir? Will you tell me which

1349
01:17:55.359 --> 01:17:56.520
angle you like you to demonstrate?

1350
01:17:56.560 --> 01:17:58.359
First, let me ask you this question for you step down.

1351
01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:06.000
Can a person beat be a on their knee and

1352
01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:08.039
get the same angle and be standing and get the

1353
01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:08.600
same angle?

1354
01:18:09.399 --> 01:18:09.800
Yes, sir.

1355
01:18:10.359 --> 01:18:13.560
Can a six foot four person and a five foot

1356
01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:17.439
four person still shoot the same angle just at different distances?

1357
01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:18.359
Absolutely?

1358
01:18:18.680 --> 01:18:21.359
Can you demonstrate for the jury why that is one

1359
01:18:21.399 --> 01:18:23.359
way that this could have changed their math?

1360
01:18:23.640 --> 01:18:35.199
I can, please. I'm measured this step on the witness

1361
01:18:35.239 --> 01:18:39.840
box during the break, it's eight inches. I used to

1362
01:18:39.920 --> 01:18:42.039
be five eleven, but as I get older, I'm about

1363
01:18:42.039 --> 01:18:45.800
five ten. But if I'm here, or I could be

1364
01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:50.399
five eight or five to two or five four here,

1365
01:18:50.439 --> 01:18:56.800
I'm five ten, here, I'm six six. Here, I'm even

1366
01:18:56.840 --> 01:18:59.359
over seven foot and I've still got the same angle.

1367
01:18:59.720 --> 01:19:01.920
I have just added a little bit of distance to it.

1368
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:08.479
And as far as the quailpin angle, I'm twenty one

1369
01:19:08.560 --> 01:19:11.479
inches from the floor to my knee. I measured it.

1370
01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:14.199
I believe it was testified that the defendant is twenty

1371
01:19:14.199 --> 01:19:16.600
five inches between the floor and his knee. So there's

1372
01:19:16.840 --> 01:19:20.039
four and a half to five inches difference in our heights.

1373
01:19:21.399 --> 01:19:24.640
Here I'm probably at four to ten if I'm shouldering

1374
01:19:24.680 --> 01:19:28.960
this weapon, and I don't know the mechanics or how

1375
01:19:28.960 --> 01:19:32.960
it's got this way, I'm just saying it's possible. Here

1376
01:19:33.000 --> 01:19:36.760
I'm at thirty nine thirty eighty some change or I

1377
01:19:36.800 --> 01:19:39.079
can't even take it lower or higher. And please gonna

1378
01:19:39.079 --> 01:19:41.000
ask me to demonstrate that, PLFE, because I don't think

1379
01:19:41.039 --> 01:19:43.039
my lee could do it again. I think I heard

1380
01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:45.840
of them crack, but that takes me the thirty six

1381
01:19:45.880 --> 01:19:48.479
inches thirty seven inches with the defend that it would

1382
01:19:48.479 --> 01:19:52.560
be about thirty nine, So it's definitely possible. Even from

1383
01:19:52.600 --> 01:19:55.800
a shoulder weapon, it's possible, And we do not know

1384
01:19:55.960 --> 01:19:57.479
how the weapon was being held.

1385
01:20:03.520 --> 01:20:07.399
From what you've observed in this crime scene. Was Maggie

1386
01:20:07.479 --> 01:20:09.359
moving at the time she was shot?

1387
01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:13.560
This was a very dynamic crime scene. I believe everything

1388
01:20:13.720 --> 01:20:16.439
was moving, The victims and the suspect were moving.

1389
01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:17.640
And how do you know that?

1390
01:20:18.319 --> 01:20:22.359
Well, suspect would be the different firearms evidence, the cartridge cases.

1391
01:20:22.439 --> 01:20:24.920
Like I said, there's no absolute They're not going to

1392
01:20:24.960 --> 01:20:27.079
throw them the exact same spot, but they will throw

1393
01:20:27.079 --> 01:20:31.640
them in a similar direction. We've got cartridge cases in

1394
01:20:31.720 --> 01:20:35.239
a pretty nice sized perimeter. We've got them at different

1395
01:20:35.279 --> 01:20:39.319
locations from where Miss Maggie Murdoch's body the final resting place,

1396
01:20:40.159 --> 01:20:44.039
and different angles, in different positions, in different directions. So

1397
01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:46.640
that tells you it's very fluid and it's very dynamic.

1398
01:20:47.840 --> 01:20:51.199
So if I'm holding a gun at not moving and shooting,

1399
01:20:52.039 --> 01:20:53.920
what is happening with those shellcases?

1400
01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:56.920
As I knew they're moving as they're ejected.

1401
01:20:59.399 --> 01:21:05.680
Where was Maggie's head pointing when she hit the ground.

1402
01:21:06.520 --> 01:21:09.279
Miss Maggie Murdock's head was pointed in the direction of

1403
01:21:09.720 --> 01:21:17.079
Paul Murdoch where his body rested back toward the feed room.

1404
01:21:17.119 --> 01:21:21.680
What is your opinion of the defensive expert that says

1405
01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:24.640
the shooter could not have been six feet four inches

1406
01:21:24.720 --> 01:21:26.359
tall like the defendant Alec Murdoch.

1407
01:21:28.760 --> 01:21:30.199
I think that's a flawed opinion.

1408
01:21:32.279 --> 01:21:34.079
Could it have been a six foot four person?

1409
01:21:34.399 --> 01:21:36.960
It could have been a five four sixty four or

1410
01:21:37.000 --> 01:21:44.159
in my opinion of seven four as I just demonstrated, Doug.

1411
01:21:44.239 --> 01:21:48.199
Let's go to page fifty nine in the defense exhibit one, p.

1412
01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:54.760
Forty That should reflect state's exhibit fifty seven. Doctor Kenzie,

1413
01:21:54.760 --> 01:21:56.560
can you describe that picture for the jury?

1414
01:21:57.399 --> 01:22:05.159
Yes, sir, I can. That is a shot from inside

1415
01:22:05.159 --> 01:22:09.079
the feed room, that back window pane where the buckshot

1416
01:22:09.159 --> 01:22:13.119
exited Paul's left arm and then continued and exited the

1417
01:22:13.159 --> 01:22:13.680
feed room.

1418
01:22:14.399 --> 01:22:18.520
Please go to page sixty seven, should be states forty five,

1419
01:22:18.600 --> 01:22:22.560
I believe. And what is that right there?

1420
01:22:23.640 --> 01:22:27.279
That's a pink string from the window to a pine tree.

1421
01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:33.760
And then go to page sixty nine and what is

1422
01:22:33.760 --> 01:22:34.399
that a picture of.

1423
01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:37.760
I don't know if it's the same pink string, but

1424
01:22:37.800 --> 01:22:40.640
it's also a pink string coming out of a window.

1425
01:22:41.079 --> 01:22:49.640
And go to page seventy four, and that is labeled

1426
01:22:49.680 --> 01:22:53.199
Exhibit fifty four. And what is that a picture of?

1427
01:22:53.880 --> 01:22:56.399
That's a picture of mister Sutton with what looks like

1428
01:22:56.439 --> 01:22:59.119
a pump action shotgun pointed down into the feed room.

1429
01:23:00.319 --> 01:23:02.960
And what do you notice about the angle that he's

1430
01:23:02.960 --> 01:23:07.479
holding the shotgun in the angle of the string, Well,

1431
01:23:07.520 --> 01:23:10.920
the string is parently let me let me crazy, I'm sorry,

1432
01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:14.239
let me rephrase that. What is the defensive theory right

1433
01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:16.960
here represented in this picture.

1434
01:23:17.199 --> 01:23:20.600
I've heard so many theories, but I really believe mister

1435
01:23:20.680 --> 01:23:23.560
Sutton was trying to show that the angle wouldn't match

1436
01:23:24.199 --> 01:23:27.359
if it was a taller shooter shooting into the feed room.

1437
01:23:27.640 --> 01:23:30.520
Okay, Doug, I'm not quite sure what page it is,

1438
01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:34.920
but I think it's two back, go back, one more.

1439
01:23:35.720 --> 01:23:40.640
There you go. That's uh, it's the labeled exhibit fifty three.

1440
01:23:40.760 --> 01:23:41.800
And what is that a picture of.

1441
01:23:42.359 --> 01:23:45.239
That's a picture of mister Sutton holding I believe the

1442
01:23:45.279 --> 01:23:47.840
same shotgun more parallel to the floor.

1443
01:23:48.439 --> 01:23:50.680
And what is he trying to demonstrate in this photo?

1444
01:23:53.399 --> 01:23:57.640
I believe he's trying to follow that that pink string

1445
01:23:57.880 --> 01:24:00.560
to that pine tree or or whatever him to that

1446
01:24:00.600 --> 01:24:01.199
pine tree.

1447
01:24:01.279 --> 01:24:03.800
Do you recall from his testimony how he got that angle?

1448
01:24:03.840 --> 01:24:09.399
I do. Mister Sutten testified that he got to where

1449
01:24:09.439 --> 01:24:12.560
he believes Paul was standing, and he got down and

1450
01:24:12.600 --> 01:24:15.319
he peeped through the hole in the window the one

1451
01:24:15.319 --> 01:24:19.199
that he thought would match that corresponding defect in that

1452
01:24:19.279 --> 01:24:22.680
pine tree, and he ran a string to that defect

1453
01:24:22.680 --> 01:24:23.600
in that pine tree.

1454
01:24:25.279 --> 01:24:28.319
Are they trying to determine the angle of the shot

1455
01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:31.840
is exactly the way the shotgun's being pointed.

1456
01:24:32.680 --> 01:24:35.960
Well, I believe they were trying to determine trajectory path

1457
01:24:36.520 --> 01:24:37.560
of that projectile.

1458
01:24:39.119 --> 01:24:40.239
What is flawed about this?

1459
01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:48.279
Guys with a with a rifle, you're talking about a

1460
01:24:48.279 --> 01:24:52.720
single projectile, and most people understand the distinction. If you

1461
01:24:52.800 --> 01:24:55.079
can find where it was fired and you can get

1462
01:24:55.279 --> 01:24:58.439
a perfect impact, sometimes that'll give you an idea of

1463
01:24:58.600 --> 01:25:03.600
the path the path of that projectile. With a shot shell,

1464
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:06.880
you're talking about nine twelve or sixteen in this case,

1465
01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:10.800
nine buck shot pellets. They're packed in a shot shell

1466
01:25:11.119 --> 01:25:15.560
with filler. It's like a styrofoam material. They're packed in

1467
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:20.640
a shot shell. When that cartridge, the primary that cartridge

1468
01:25:20.720 --> 01:25:25.079
is ignited and those pellets exit the muzzle of that firearm.

1469
01:25:25.439 --> 01:25:27.960
They start to spread. We've heard a lot of testimony

1470
01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:30.920
about that. They start to spread, and they spread in

1471
01:25:31.000 --> 01:25:34.640
a cone. Okay, you got some at the top, some bottom,

1472
01:25:34.680 --> 01:25:39.920
some left, and some right, and the more the distance becomes,

1473
01:25:40.000 --> 01:25:44.079
the greater they spread. They're not like a mother duck

1474
01:25:45.039 --> 01:25:47.880
with the ducklings right behind it and all the buckshot

1475
01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:52.000
are in line. So you can't get a true trajectory

1476
01:25:52.079 --> 01:25:55.000
on this shotgun. You can't even measure a true pattern,

1477
01:25:55.720 --> 01:25:59.239
not even close to a pattern, with one pellet. So

1478
01:26:00.359 --> 01:26:04.720
it's my opinion that that pellet that definitely impacted that

1479
01:26:04.840 --> 01:26:07.880
pine tree. That's the top of the cone. So you've

1480
01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:10.079
still got a bottom, and you've got two sides of

1481
01:26:10.079 --> 01:26:13.359
that cone. And unfortunately, none of those pellets were located.

1482
01:26:17.159 --> 01:26:24.359
So, in your professional opinion, can you exclude a six

1483
01:26:24.399 --> 01:26:28.600
foot four defendant like Alec Murdoch or anyone for that matter,

1484
01:26:28.640 --> 01:26:31.800
at that height from shooting that shotgun.

1485
01:26:31.359 --> 01:26:31.960
At that angle?

1486
01:26:32.520 --> 01:26:33.359
Absolutely not.

1487
01:26:34.600 --> 01:26:37.359
When the defense expert says that the shooter has to

1488
01:26:37.399 --> 01:26:40.920
be between five two and five four, do you disagree

1489
01:26:40.920 --> 01:26:41.239
with that?

1490
01:26:42.560 --> 01:26:44.760
I do disagree with that wholeheartedly.

1491
01:26:45.359 --> 01:26:47.399
With what degree of certainty do you think they're wrong?

1492
01:26:47.439 --> 01:26:48.359
In their conclusions.

1493
01:26:48.840 --> 01:26:50.279
I just think it's an unknown.

1494
01:26:50.880 --> 01:26:51.239
I don't.

1495
01:26:51.319 --> 01:26:53.520
I mean, it's many more variables. You have to know

1496
01:26:53.800 --> 01:26:56.640
how the shooter was holding the gun. You know, how

1497
01:26:56.680 --> 01:27:00.479
his proportion to legs matches up with body. I mean

1498
01:27:00.560 --> 01:27:02.960
that's something that we're all a little bit different, and

1499
01:27:03.079 --> 01:27:04.960
I don't unless you've got a video of that or

1500
01:27:05.000 --> 01:27:07.279
someone tells you how they held a weapon. I think

1501
01:27:07.319 --> 01:27:10.760
the notion that being able to look at this evidence

1502
01:27:10.800 --> 01:27:13.680
and determine that is unscientific.

1503
01:27:14.560 --> 01:27:17.680
You said something a minute ago, you said, there's so

1504
01:27:17.760 --> 01:27:22.479
much we can't know. Could the shooter have been running laterally?

1505
01:27:24.720 --> 01:27:25.600
Certainly? Could have.

1506
01:27:25.720 --> 01:27:30.479
Could the shooter have been running toward Maggie? Certainly, Maggie

1507
01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:34.880
was certainly moving or in my opinion, she was. Could

1508
01:27:34.880 --> 01:27:37.680
the shooter have been on their knees? Could it been?

1509
01:27:40.279 --> 01:27:41.960
But there's no way to know for sure.

1510
01:27:42.199 --> 01:27:44.399
Correct, that's an unknown, yes, sir.

1511
01:27:44.760 --> 01:27:47.880
And because there's so many unknowns, there is no way

1512
01:27:47.920 --> 01:27:51.800
the defense expert can definitively exclude a six foot four

1513
01:27:51.880 --> 01:27:54.800
person from shooting the rifle and the shotgun.

1514
01:27:54.880 --> 01:27:56.439
Correct, the defense.

1515
01:27:58.920 --> 01:27:59.520
Can I do them?

1516
01:28:00.000 --> 01:28:06.039
In your opinion, can the defense based on what you

1517
01:28:06.159 --> 01:28:09.000
just testified to exclude a six foot four person from

1518
01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:10.800
being the shooter with either weapon.

1519
01:28:10.920 --> 01:28:14.920
In my opinion, know the defense witness is relying on

1520
01:28:15.039 --> 01:28:19.960
math and absolute and in crime scene investigation sometimes there

1521
01:28:20.000 --> 01:28:21.119
are no absolutes.

1522
01:28:28.359 --> 01:28:33.520
Doctor Kinzie, have you ever observed a contact wound to

1523
01:28:33.560 --> 01:28:35.000
the head by a shotgun?

1524
01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:36.439
Yes, sir, I have.

1525
01:28:37.239 --> 01:28:40.600
How many times have you observed a contact wound to

1526
01:28:40.680 --> 01:28:41.920
the head by a shotgun?

1527
01:28:44.239 --> 01:28:47.479
After the fact, I've seen several dozen, maybe three dozen,

1528
01:28:47.840 --> 01:28:51.359
But I also had a gentleman that committed suicide in

1529
01:28:51.359 --> 01:28:56.439
front of me, probably from me to you, how.

1530
01:28:56.279 --> 01:29:00.359
Many times have you actually seen either photos of a

1531
01:29:00.399 --> 01:29:02.199
contact wound to the back of the head with a

1532
01:29:02.239 --> 01:29:04.720
shotgun in your professional career?

1533
01:29:05.279 --> 01:29:09.119
Probably a dozen. Out of that three dozen, probably twenty

1534
01:29:09.119 --> 01:29:11.920
four of them were suicides or someone taking their own life,

1535
01:29:11.960 --> 01:29:14.760
probably a dozen execution killings.

1536
01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:18.199
Can you describe for the jury what kind of trauma

1537
01:29:18.439 --> 01:29:20.840
of faces? And I know they've heard from a pathologist,

1538
01:29:21.479 --> 01:29:25.960
but in your experience as an expert in crime scene forensics,

1539
01:29:26.159 --> 01:29:29.279
can you describe the kind of trauma you have observed

1540
01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:32.760
in your career with contact wounds to the back of

1541
01:29:32.760 --> 01:29:33.960
the head or any part of the head.

1542
01:29:34.359 --> 01:29:40.600
Yes, sir, I have and specifically to the face. Generally speaking,

1543
01:29:40.640 --> 01:29:44.159
whether it be a shotgun or a large caliber handgun,

1544
01:29:44.319 --> 01:29:52.479
the result is similar. You feel as though the forehead

1545
01:29:52.560 --> 01:29:55.439
and the facial features have went away. And that's a

1546
01:29:55.520 --> 01:29:59.279
kind way to put it. They're actually there, but they

1547
01:29:59.319 --> 01:30:06.439
have been they've been shredded, and the pathologist can actually

1548
01:30:06.439 --> 01:30:09.520
put those features back in place, or the majority of it.

1549
01:30:09.560 --> 01:30:13.359
But looking at it, it looks like from the teeth

1550
01:30:13.439 --> 01:30:16.760
up the person went away. It's just a mess.

1551
01:30:18.600 --> 01:30:21.439
DoD McKenzie, I would like to show you what's been

1552
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:25.039
March of States, he said, at for eighty six. Can

1553
01:30:25.079 --> 01:30:27.279
you look at that? You've been say if you've seen

1554
01:30:27.319 --> 01:30:28.119
that picture before?

1555
01:30:36.880 --> 01:30:37.520
Yes, sir, I have.

1556
01:30:38.560 --> 01:30:40.439
And what's the picture of It's.

1557
01:30:40.319 --> 01:30:42.760
A picture of Paul Murdoch at autopsy.

1558
01:30:43.880 --> 01:30:46.399
In what part of Paul Murdoch is in a picture of.

1559
01:30:46.760 --> 01:30:50.119
His face and his forehead?

1560
01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:56.600
Does his face look like it suffered the kind of

1561
01:30:56.640 --> 01:30:59.560
trauma you have observed in the past from a contact

1562
01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:01.520
gunshot into the back of the head or any part.

1563
01:31:01.439 --> 01:31:04.600
Of the head, No, sir, other than some red features

1564
01:31:04.760 --> 01:31:09.520
from you know, falling on the cement after the fatal shot,

1565
01:31:09.840 --> 01:31:12.920
and some blotching to his skin, his face looks fairly

1566
01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.880
normal to have gone through what he suffered.

1567
01:31:17.600 --> 01:31:19.520
And I'm not going to publish the photo again because

1568
01:31:19.560 --> 01:31:22.399
I think people are tired of seeing it. But I

1569
01:31:22.439 --> 01:31:25.520
do need for you to describe what kind of things

1570
01:31:25.560 --> 01:31:29.560
you've observed with the eyes and the bones, with people

1571
01:31:29.560 --> 01:31:32.199
that you've seen that have been struck or shot in

1572
01:31:32.239 --> 01:31:34.000
the back of the head at point blank rage.

1573
01:31:34.119 --> 01:31:36.039
Yes, sir, Well it's not always the back. Now I've

1574
01:31:36.039 --> 01:31:39.560
seen something from the side, offsir, But yes, sir, Generally,

1575
01:31:39.720 --> 01:31:42.479
like I said, it looks like the facial features have

1576
01:31:42.560 --> 01:31:46.640
gone away or they've at least changed drastically. A lot

1577
01:31:46.640 --> 01:31:50.479
of times you will get large blood pockets or contusions

1578
01:31:50.560 --> 01:31:54.239
under the eyes if the eyes don't pop out. A

1579
01:31:54.279 --> 01:31:56.640
lot of times the eyes will pop out and they

1580
01:31:56.640 --> 01:31:59.640
will be on what's left of the cheeks, the facial

1581
01:31:59.680 --> 01:32:01.520
bombs as you can grab them with your with a

1582
01:32:01.560 --> 01:32:05.159
gloved hand and you can move them around, and then

1583
01:32:05.159 --> 01:32:09.159
you will actually have pellet exits in the skin flap.

1584
01:32:09.199 --> 01:32:11.199
If you pull the skin up, you can see where

1585
01:32:11.239 --> 01:32:15.239
the pellets, whether they be buckshot or close distance birth shot,

1586
01:32:15.560 --> 01:32:18.520
you can see the actual defects from those pellets.

1587
01:32:20.399 --> 01:32:23.800
Based on your training in your many years of law

1588
01:32:23.880 --> 01:32:28.199
enforcement experience, are the wound suffered to call the back

1589
01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:31.640
of the head consistent with a contact shot to the back?

1590
01:32:33.800 --> 01:32:35.720
Absolutely not in my opinion.

1591
01:32:38.119 --> 01:32:40.039
Okay, doctor Kenzie, we'll move on from that for just

1592
01:32:40.039 --> 01:32:44.159
a second. You were here yesterday, correct I was? Did

1593
01:32:44.199 --> 01:32:46.640
you have the opportunity to observe I want to say

1594
01:32:46.640 --> 01:32:50.800
his name correctly. I believe it was Tim Palmbac, I did.

1595
01:32:51.000 --> 01:32:54.199
He was a crime scene investigator who was qualified as an.

1596
01:32:54.119 --> 01:32:59.199
Expert for the defense. Not right, Yes, sir, okay, I would.

1597
01:33:01.479 --> 01:33:05.880
H he came up with two significant conclusions. It's say

1598
01:33:05.920 --> 01:33:09.079
three about how Paul was shot.

1599
01:33:08.920 --> 01:33:09.600
At the feed room.

1600
01:33:09.760 --> 01:33:11.239
Can you you remember what those were?

1601
01:33:11.279 --> 01:33:16.000
For this jury? The big one that I recall is

1602
01:33:16.079 --> 01:33:18.520
that Paul was shot in the back of the head

1603
01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:22.439
with a contact womb And the other one will uh

1604
01:33:22.479 --> 01:33:24.760
the the strikes in my mind, I don't know it.

1605
01:33:25.319 --> 01:33:27.640
The shooter passed him and shot him from inside the

1606
01:33:27.680 --> 01:33:29.880
feed room. Those are the two big ones that I recall.

1607
01:33:30.399 --> 01:33:33.079
M there was another one regarding the number of people

1608
01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:35.159
there was there.

1609
01:33:35.520 --> 01:33:37.680
The thing about two shooters, Yes, sir, okay.

1610
01:33:38.239 --> 01:33:41.439
We'll get to that in a minute.

1611
01:33:41.840 --> 01:33:42.640
I would like to.

1612
01:33:45.479 --> 01:33:46.720
Doug, can you get the l no up.

1613
01:33:57.319 --> 01:34:04.640
Oh, I'm showing you exhibits.

1614
01:34:12.600 --> 01:34:13.680
What's side of picture.

1615
01:34:13.359 --> 01:34:17.840
Of that's a picture of that expert with his hands

1616
01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:21.720
cooked opposite the hinges on the door the doorframe.

1617
01:34:22.640 --> 01:34:26.439
Okay, I wantly just picture up for a moment because

1618
01:34:26.479 --> 01:34:29.359
what is the direction that the picture was taken from.

1619
01:34:29.439 --> 01:34:32.720
From inside the feed room? Facing what direction outside the

1620
01:34:32.720 --> 01:34:33.399
feed room?

1621
01:34:33.479 --> 01:34:37.319
Okay? Now you had an opportunity to hear the defensive

1622
01:34:37.399 --> 01:34:38.800
theory on how Paul was shot?

1623
01:34:38.920 --> 01:34:40.439
Correct, Yes, sir, I did.

1624
01:34:40.880 --> 01:34:45.680
I would like to demonstrate that with you right now. Yes, sir,

1625
01:34:45.880 --> 01:34:48.840
can you walk us through the defensive theory as you

1626
01:34:48.920 --> 01:34:49.680
understood it to be?

1627
01:34:50.479 --> 01:34:52.840
Yes, sir, I can your honor.

1628
01:34:54.239 --> 01:34:56.840
For purposes of this demonstration. I don't know if the

1629
01:34:56.880 --> 01:34:58.399
court would allow it, but to be nice, if we

1630
01:34:58.439 --> 01:35:00.359
could open this door. I want to make sure that

1631
01:35:00.399 --> 01:35:02.680
there's security here, but if we could have that door

1632
01:35:02.720 --> 01:35:09.520
open just for a minute or two, and you thank you,

1633
01:35:09.520 --> 01:35:24.079
your honor. I'm grabbing what the smartest states send at

1634
01:35:24.119 --> 01:35:29.079
for which is a Camovanelli Super Black Evil three shotgun

1635
01:35:29.159 --> 01:35:48.399
twelve games. We'll use this for the demonstration. To step down. Now,

1636
01:35:48.680 --> 01:35:50.159
is this store the same with as.

1637
01:35:50.039 --> 01:35:52.399
The feed room door if a couple of inches wider

1638
01:35:52.439 --> 01:35:53.359
than the feed room door.

1639
01:35:53.600 --> 01:35:55.560
And of course the feed room door doesn't have this

1640
01:35:55.680 --> 01:35:56.960
for you know it's inset.

1641
01:35:57.039 --> 01:35:57.399
Correct.

1642
01:35:57.479 --> 01:35:58.159
That is correct.

1643
01:35:58.239 --> 01:35:58.960
So this is not.

1644
01:35:59.039 --> 01:36:02.760
Exactly a replication of what happened at the feed room door.

1645
01:36:02.800 --> 01:36:05.680
Correct. No, sure it's not. The door swings the same

1646
01:36:05.680 --> 01:36:06.359
direction though.

1647
01:36:06.680 --> 01:36:09.760
Now you have given me permission. I'm very careful about

1648
01:36:09.800 --> 01:36:12.680
muzzle velocity. I'm obviously muzzle awareness, but you'll give me

1649
01:36:12.720 --> 01:36:15.279
permission to point the sit you correct, I have Okay,

1650
01:36:15.439 --> 01:36:18.319
you actually asked me to correct. Yes, all right, So

1651
01:36:18.720 --> 01:36:21.479
go in there and stand a couple of feet back.

1652
01:36:21.520 --> 01:36:23.279
You didn't have to be five feet but you have

1653
01:36:23.319 --> 01:36:26.359
since testified that Paul was five feet inside the feed room.

1654
01:36:26.399 --> 01:36:26.720
Correct.

1655
01:36:26.800 --> 01:36:29.680
Can we demonstrate the first shot out here? I am believing.

1656
01:36:31.039 --> 01:36:32.760
Stand back a little bit because you got to stumble

1657
01:36:32.760 --> 01:36:36.039
toward me. So I'm gonna point like I'm pointing at you.

1658
01:36:36.640 --> 01:36:40.840
Paul is shot. Where's the shooter approximately outside the door.

1659
01:36:41.159 --> 01:36:44.159
The reach phase for the ejection before the shot, and

1660
01:36:44.560 --> 01:36:45.640
just passed the doorframe.

1661
01:36:45.960 --> 01:36:50.920
Okay, Paul has just been shot. And then in the

1662
01:36:50.960 --> 01:36:54.359
defensive theory, what walking you tell me what to do,

1663
01:36:54.479 --> 01:36:56.159
and you you act this out, and I'm gonna do

1664
01:36:56.159 --> 01:36:57.760
what you tell me to do based on the defensive

1665
01:36:57.880 --> 01:36:58.520
theory of the case.

1666
01:36:58.640 --> 01:37:02.800
The defense with the assessment that Paul stood there for

1667
01:37:02.840 --> 01:37:06.439
a moment, leading down his injured left arm, and he

1668
01:37:06.560 --> 01:37:10.079
slowly walked toward the door. Okay, And what does the

1669
01:37:10.079 --> 01:37:14.520
shooter do the shooter's coming in the door. And then

1670
01:37:14.520 --> 01:37:16.920
what does the shooter do He shoots Paul in the

1671
01:37:16.960 --> 01:37:19.039
back of the head after he passes he.

1672
01:37:21.079 --> 01:37:24.000
Okay, and then shoots Paul in the back of the

1673
01:37:24.000 --> 01:37:26.600
head like this, And where does the blood spatter go?

1674
01:37:27.560 --> 01:37:31.199
The blood spatter the pellet defects. And one that I

1675
01:37:31.239 --> 01:37:35.439
didn't know about that the expert collected within the doorframe

1676
01:37:35.520 --> 01:37:36.560
at the top of the door.

1677
01:37:37.840 --> 01:37:41.279
Now I understand it's a little different than the feed

1678
01:37:41.359 --> 01:37:43.800
room door that the dusty can do.

1679
01:37:45.920 --> 01:37:48.880
So what did you find odd about the theory? First

1680
01:37:48.880 --> 01:37:53.399
of all, I think the theory is preposterous in my opinion.

1681
01:37:55.239 --> 01:37:58.000
Can you can you walk me through why you think

1682
01:37:58.039 --> 01:37:59.000
it's preposterous?

1683
01:37:59.199 --> 01:38:03.600
Absolutely? Number one, that dry lock number two shot shell

1684
01:38:05.640 --> 01:38:09.159
fires a projectile at fourteen hundred and fifty feet per

1685
01:38:09.239 --> 01:38:12.640
second once it leaves a muzzle of that weapon. As

1686
01:38:12.760 --> 01:38:18.560
was mentioned, that's a millisecond. That's fast to think that

1687
01:38:18.600 --> 01:38:24.159
the pressure from flesh and bone will cause that pellet.

1688
01:38:24.479 --> 01:38:27.279
Those steel pellets, now we're not talking about lead. Lead's

1689
01:38:27.279 --> 01:38:31.039
a little bit more giving. Lead will is milable, it

1690
01:38:31.079 --> 01:38:34.880
will crush or flatten. We're talking about steel BB pellets.

1691
01:38:36.199 --> 01:38:40.199
They will turn around because of the pressure, go back

1692
01:38:40.279 --> 01:38:44.119
the opposite direction one hundred and eighty degree direction at

1693
01:38:44.239 --> 01:38:49.520
enough velocity to damp a steel exterior door and e

1694
01:38:49.640 --> 01:38:54.119
bed in the doorframe. That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen

1695
01:38:57.960 --> 01:38:58.640
in my opinion.

1696
01:39:02.760 --> 01:39:05.159
I don't know if you've mentioned this earlier, but can

1697
01:39:05.239 --> 01:39:07.880
you talk about forget it right?

1698
01:39:07.920 --> 01:39:12.319
And can I add please do also, there's no defects

1699
01:39:12.359 --> 01:39:14.920
to the OSB or the T one to eleven siding

1700
01:39:14.920 --> 01:39:15.880
in the bottom of the room.

1701
01:39:16.159 --> 01:39:16.279
Right.

1702
01:39:16.319 --> 01:39:18.720
Wait, wait a second, you said a lot right there, Yes, sir,

1703
01:39:18.800 --> 01:39:22.920
ts what ts one eleven? It's like a xterior paneling

1704
01:39:23.079 --> 01:39:25.520
the people put on their buildings. That's what's on the

1705
01:39:25.520 --> 01:39:27.880
building the Frost City boys.

1706
01:39:27.960 --> 01:39:29.159
We appreciate you describing that.

1707
01:39:29.239 --> 01:39:31.840
Thank you, Yes, sir, it's a whole weather paneling. Uh,

1708
01:39:32.319 --> 01:39:34.760
there's no defects at the bottom and if that theory

1709
01:39:34.880 --> 01:39:37.960
is correct, if this is an entrance and this is

1710
01:39:38.000 --> 01:39:41.279
an exit, the shot still had to go somewhere. There's

1711
01:39:41.359 --> 01:39:44.600
no defects down there on anything. The doorframe, as I

1712
01:39:44.680 --> 01:39:47.520
mentioned in my previous testimony, the doorframe has a clean

1713
01:39:47.600 --> 01:39:51.840
void that would be perfectly in line with those shots

1714
01:39:51.880 --> 01:39:56.680
from that shot sheld. There's no cracks, chips, pellet holes

1715
01:39:56.720 --> 01:40:01.359
in the cement. There's nothing in the OSB that's cheap plywood,

1716
01:40:01.439 --> 01:40:06.119
that's man made plywood. There's no defects in the plywood.

1717
01:40:06.359 --> 01:40:10.039
There's no high velocity blood spatter on the floor. What

1718
01:40:10.079 --> 01:40:13.119
was pointed out to you is medium velocity, and that's

1719
01:40:13.159 --> 01:40:16.000
from coming out of the wound and gravity bringing it

1720
01:40:16.039 --> 01:40:18.880
down to the floor. You would see a pattern on

1721
01:40:18.920 --> 01:40:21.319
the floor, just like what you can see in the

1722
01:40:21.319 --> 01:40:24.960
photographs at the top of that door. None of that's there.

1723
01:40:25.159 --> 01:40:27.119
So I have to look at the science, and I

1724
01:40:27.199 --> 01:40:30.720
have to look at inertia, and I have to look

1725
01:40:30.720 --> 01:40:33.359
at that shot shell and how fast that shell is

1726
01:40:33.399 --> 01:40:36.199
propelled out of that barrel. And I know that it

1727
01:40:36.239 --> 01:40:38.399
can't turn around one hundred and eighty degrees and go

1728
01:40:38.520 --> 01:40:41.279
back the other direction. It's not like blood and tissue

1729
01:40:41.319 --> 01:40:44.359
we're talking about steel steel pellets.

1730
01:40:44.119 --> 01:40:47.760
Doctor Kinzier, other studies on percentages of blowback when you're

1731
01:40:47.760 --> 01:40:51.960
shooting into someone there are, and based on your expert opinion,

1732
01:40:51.960 --> 01:40:54.439
what percentage of blowback would come back at a shooter

1733
01:40:54.560 --> 01:40:57.039
if they were able to shoot at that angle.

1734
01:40:57.159 --> 01:41:00.640
Well, I don't think there's any definite, but what I

1735
01:41:00.680 --> 01:41:04.159
read is eight to ten percent, excepting you know, like

1736
01:41:04.199 --> 01:41:07.920
I said, it's not absolute every time, but eight to

1737
01:41:07.960 --> 01:41:10.920
ten percent. Remember the most of your forces going out

1738
01:41:10.960 --> 01:41:12.159
the front of the barrel.

1739
01:41:13.039 --> 01:41:15.159
And a moment ago you were just talking about the

1740
01:41:15.199 --> 01:41:18.000
defects and all of the trauma that would have happened

1741
01:41:18.039 --> 01:41:21.319
to the paneling and the floor. Can you point on

1742
01:41:21.359 --> 01:41:25.439
this photo with the dollarstick behind you for the jury.

1743
01:41:25.479 --> 01:41:26.520
I just wanted them to see in this.

1744
01:41:26.479 --> 01:41:39.199
Photo right here the void as I documented in my

1745
01:41:39.279 --> 01:41:43.039
original testimony, the void was from here down other than

1746
01:41:43.079 --> 01:41:45.600
one stray satellite drop of blood that was.

1747
01:41:45.520 --> 01:41:50.880
Fairly clean from here to at least right here.

1748
01:41:50.920 --> 01:41:52.760
But there's no defects here.

1749
01:41:53.319 --> 01:41:56.760
There's no defects in that sement outside, there's no defects

1750
01:41:56.840 --> 01:41:59.840
in the inside semen, and none in this OSB right here.

1751
01:42:00.800 --> 01:42:03.279
And that was still there when I did the tour

1752
01:42:03.279 --> 01:42:05.640
where they ripped out all the shelving and some of

1753
01:42:05.680 --> 01:42:07.600
the insulation, but this was still there.

1754
01:42:13.399 --> 01:42:16.199
Doctor Kenjie may have covered this a little bit, but

1755
01:42:16.359 --> 01:42:22.039
explained for the jury. If someone is shooting down, as

1756
01:42:22.079 --> 01:42:24.359
we just demonstrated a moment ago here in the doorway,

1757
01:42:25.319 --> 01:42:29.960
you're leaning out, the shooter is shooting down, how do

1758
01:42:30.119 --> 01:42:34.520
pellets get embedded into the doorframe up here? How is

1759
01:42:34.560 --> 01:42:35.239
that possible?

1760
01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:40.840
I think it's impossible myself. Physics don't work that way

1761
01:42:40.960 --> 01:42:44.880
unless you're shooting into a trampoline or a huge piece

1762
01:42:44.920 --> 01:42:47.880
of steel, and then you may have a pellet deflected

1763
01:42:47.920 --> 01:42:50.359
back on you. It happens many times, especially when we're

1764
01:42:50.399 --> 01:42:54.039
shooting steel targets, but not at that velocity. It will

1765
01:42:54.079 --> 01:42:56.600
not sink into the doorframe and it definitely will not

1766
01:42:56.800 --> 01:42:59.960
damp that door. With what I documented in my.

1767
01:43:07.680 --> 01:43:10.880
What is the restate for this jury with the defensive

1768
01:43:10.960 --> 01:43:15.840
theory based on that belowback that would have exploded into

1769
01:43:15.920 --> 01:43:20.920
the shooter's face here behind, Paul explain for the jury

1770
01:43:20.960 --> 01:43:25.119
what the defensive theory is about how that shooter would

1771
01:43:25.119 --> 01:43:25.640
have been.

1772
01:43:25.319 --> 01:43:30.960
In the defense expert testified that that shooter would be

1773
01:43:31.159 --> 01:43:35.640
most probably incapacitated from blood, bone and body fluid, and

1774
01:43:35.720 --> 01:43:38.279
that was a high likelihood that he was injured by

1775
01:43:38.319 --> 01:43:39.079
those pellets.

1776
01:43:41.079 --> 01:43:44.800
Dotter Kinsey, in your expert opinion, is there anything awkward

1777
01:43:44.840 --> 01:43:50.119
about a shooter sending outside going into an enclosed ajarry

1778
01:43:50.199 --> 01:43:52.520
to turn around to shoot someone from enclosed Is there

1779
01:43:52.600 --> 01:43:53.960
something weird about that to you.

1780
01:43:54.800 --> 01:43:57.800
I can't figure out the methodology of a shooter. I've

1781
01:43:57.840 --> 01:44:02.000
never done any crime like that, mister Wilson, But I

1782
01:44:02.079 --> 01:44:05.199
don't see if we talk about common sense, and everybody's

1783
01:44:05.239 --> 01:44:08.319
mentioned the totality when they don't have an answer for something,

1784
01:44:08.319 --> 01:44:11.880
it's always I looked at the totality, but I don't

1785
01:44:11.880 --> 01:44:15.760
see any reason for someone to squeeze up past one

1786
01:44:15.840 --> 01:44:18.399
victim in this doorway to go inside to shoot him

1787
01:44:18.439 --> 01:44:23.199
back out. And if he did, if that scenario did happen,

1788
01:44:23.560 --> 01:44:25.920
that doesn't explain all the pellets that are in the

1789
01:44:25.960 --> 01:44:29.640
floor of the feed room that we've testified herd testimony

1790
01:44:29.680 --> 01:44:33.560
to as to why law enforcement didn't clean those pellets up.

1791
01:44:33.960 --> 01:44:36.680
If it happened the way the defense expert says, those

1792
01:44:36.720 --> 01:44:39.159
pellets would be out here in the yard. They would

1793
01:44:39.199 --> 01:44:42.279
not be inside that feed room.

1794
01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:46.760
Doctor kin do you have a chance to review the

1795
01:44:46.840 --> 01:44:50.880
case file on this particular case and observe the defense

1796
01:44:50.960 --> 01:44:52.239
testimony from last week?

1797
01:44:53.720 --> 01:44:56.319
Two separate things, Yes, sir, I have reviewed our case

1798
01:44:56.359 --> 01:44:59.800
file all crime scene or what I felt was crime

1799
01:44:59.800 --> 01:45:03.439
scene related evidence. I didn't look into the videos and

1800
01:45:03.600 --> 01:45:07.039
a lot of that other stuff. And I have witnessed

1801
01:45:07.039 --> 01:45:09.159
the testimony of the defense experts.

1802
01:45:10.319 --> 01:45:13.600
Are you familiar with what the investigation has determined about

1803
01:45:13.600 --> 01:45:17.000
the tool marks found on the three hundred blackout shells

1804
01:45:17.039 --> 01:45:20.359
found around Maggie's body and the tool marks found on

1805
01:45:20.399 --> 01:45:24.720
the weathered three hundred blackout shells found way up by

1806
01:45:24.760 --> 01:45:27.680
the house in the flower bed. Are you familiar with that?

1807
01:45:27.920 --> 01:45:30.000
Ham for me? And what do you know about that?

1808
01:45:31.520 --> 01:45:33.199
The examination.

1809
01:45:34.239 --> 01:45:39.239
Loop of our case and it's going into completely new information.

1810
01:45:40.720 --> 01:45:44.439
They're ballistic experts already testified we didn't present a blistic expert,

1811
01:45:44.520 --> 01:45:46.560
and now they're parading him as a blissed check.

1812
01:45:48.000 --> 01:45:48.760
Your response.

1813
01:45:49.760 --> 01:45:52.880
They're experts said yesterday I about an hour nine minutes

1814
01:45:52.920 --> 01:45:55.640
into their testimony, that would be impractical for one shooter

1815
01:45:55.720 --> 01:45:57.960
to bring in two long guns. It has always been

1816
01:45:58.000 --> 01:46:01.000
the state's theory that the shooter owned both guns and

1817
01:46:01.079 --> 01:46:04.039
had them on him, So we're rebutting what the defense

1818
01:46:04.159 --> 01:46:04.880
experts said.

1819
01:46:07.479 --> 01:46:08.479
The objection of overworld.

1820
01:46:11.840 --> 01:46:15.000
Please answer the question, asker you Wilson, Please are you

1821
01:46:15.039 --> 01:46:17.800
familiar with what the investigation has determined about the three

1822
01:46:17.880 --> 01:46:21.800
hundred blackout shells found around Maggie's body and the three

1823
01:46:21.880 --> 01:46:26.279
hundred blackout shells found up by the flying re bed

1824
01:46:26.439 --> 01:46:28.880
that we appeared to be several months old in weather.

1825
01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:32.359
What relationships the shells have to each other.

1826
01:46:33.960 --> 01:46:38.479
According to the firearms examination, those cartridge casings were loaded

1827
01:46:38.479 --> 01:46:40.359
and ejected from the same weapon.

1828
01:46:43.800 --> 01:46:47.359
So a family owned weapon is what was used to

1829
01:46:47.439 --> 01:46:52.399
kill Maggie. Leading what do you infer from that information?

1830
01:46:53.000 --> 01:47:05.159
I would infer that this is a family owned firearm.

1831
01:47:05.319 --> 01:47:09.399
There was some testimony yesterday, doctor Kenzie about where it

1832
01:47:09.479 --> 01:47:13.800
was from the defendant's brother, mister John Marvin Murdoch, and

1833
01:47:13.840 --> 01:47:16.880
it related to the following day he came upon the

1834
01:47:16.880 --> 01:47:19.800
crime scene. It had been cleared and he saw how

1835
01:47:19.800 --> 01:47:23.359
the crime scene was left. Can you explain you've been

1836
01:47:23.359 --> 01:47:24.840
in law enforcement for how many years?

1837
01:47:25.319 --> 01:47:28.720
Thirty years, well over thirty, but thirty years getting paid

1838
01:47:29.119 --> 01:47:29.680
and you're the.

1839
01:47:29.880 --> 01:47:31.680
Chief deputy at a sheriff's department.

1840
01:47:31.800 --> 01:47:33.800
Yes, sir, Orangeburg County Shriff's Office.

1841
01:47:34.479 --> 01:47:37.920
Just to clarify some things, can you explain normally or

1842
01:47:37.960 --> 01:47:41.680
traditionally how crime scenes are cleaned up for this jury?

1843
01:47:41.960 --> 01:47:43.640
Is it the responsibility of law enforcement?

1844
01:47:43.680 --> 01:47:46.840
In other words, no, sir, there are private companies that

1845
01:47:46.920 --> 01:47:50.000
are contracted through SOBA where it used to be sold with.

1846
01:47:49.960 --> 01:47:52.399
The names changed now And what does SILVIS stand for?

1847
01:47:53.159 --> 01:47:57.159
It's Victims State. It's the State Office of Victims Assistance,

1848
01:47:57.720 --> 01:47:59.840
but it's now changed. I can't tell you what the

1849
01:47:59.840 --> 01:48:03.640
new acronym is, but it works through our victims advocates.

1850
01:48:03.720 --> 01:48:07.880
Law enforcement victims advocates. Almost every department has them, and

1851
01:48:07.960 --> 01:48:12.199
there's funding provided from taxpayer funds to work through your

1852
01:48:12.319 --> 01:48:14.760
victims advocates, and you go out and you clean these

1853
01:48:14.800 --> 01:48:17.079
crime scenes for the families, so they don't bear the

1854
01:48:17.079 --> 01:48:21.399
burden of cleaning those crime scenes. Law enforcement in particular

1855
01:48:22.039 --> 01:48:33.399
cannot collect and dispose of and transport sounds, terrible body parts,

1856
01:48:33.479 --> 01:48:36.600
or body fluids. That's something the coroner has to do

1857
01:48:36.800 --> 01:48:40.319
because it's actually by permit through d HACK. But to

1858
01:48:40.439 --> 01:48:43.840
make it easy on the family, these companies can collect

1859
01:48:43.880 --> 01:48:46.920
those items and then they will turn them over with

1860
01:48:46.960 --> 01:48:49.479
a chain of custody or they will properly dispose of

1861
01:48:49.520 --> 01:48:50.239
those items.

1862
01:48:53.159 --> 01:49:02.720
Doctor Kinsey, is your expert opinion that a six foot

1863
01:49:02.760 --> 01:49:05.840
four shooter cannot be excluded from the murder of Maggie

1864
01:49:05.880 --> 01:49:06.239
and Paul?

1865
01:49:07.039 --> 01:49:09.520
I see nothing that could exclude a six foot four

1866
01:49:09.600 --> 01:49:10.479
shooter in.

1867
01:49:10.479 --> 01:49:17.079
Your expert opinion. Can you tell this jury is it

1868
01:49:17.199 --> 01:49:19.000
right for the defense to say that there had to

1869
01:49:19.039 --> 01:49:23.720
be two shooters based on the testimony you heard yesterday?

1870
01:49:25.079 --> 01:49:34.600
In your expert opinion? Can can two shoot Can you

1871
01:49:34.680 --> 01:49:35.720
exclude two shooters?

1872
01:49:36.560 --> 01:49:39.399
I cannot include or exclude two shooters?

1873
01:49:39.479 --> 01:49:42.640
Can the defense include, to the exclusion of all other

1874
01:49:42.680 --> 01:49:44.279
possibilities two shooters?

1875
01:49:44.600 --> 01:49:45.359
Absolutely not.

1876
01:49:46.159 --> 01:49:48.439
You heard a lot of things there, and the defense

1877
01:49:49.039 --> 01:49:51.640
is passed and they want to take a crack at

1878
01:49:51.760 --> 01:49:55.960
him and y'all. I debated not playing this because it's lengthy.

1879
01:49:56.159 --> 01:49:59.720
This would make this particular podcast over three hours in

1880
01:49:59.840 --> 01:50:03.560
le eighth in all likelihood, but it would be a disservice,

1881
01:50:04.000 --> 01:50:08.640
quite frankly, to not play it. This is the determining

1882
01:50:08.800 --> 01:50:11.840
factor on the number of shooters, and I just feel

1883
01:50:11.880 --> 01:50:15.039
like you need to hear it in its completion. So, hey,

1884
01:50:15.720 --> 01:50:19.279
it's Thursday. When this has dropped. Our next episode doesn't

1885
01:50:19.359 --> 01:50:22.079
drop till Tuesday next week. So if you don't have

1886
01:50:22.199 --> 01:50:24.680
the time to listen to this all at once, spread

1887
01:50:24.680 --> 01:50:26.560
it out over a couple of days, or if you've

1888
01:50:26.560 --> 01:50:29.079
got time to listen right now, hey, here it is

1889
01:50:29.960 --> 01:50:34.359
the cross examination and in my opinion, the key to

1890
01:50:34.399 --> 01:50:37.800
this case of doctor Kenneth Kinsey.

1891
01:50:38.520 --> 01:50:45.960
Good afternoon, doctor Kensey. Hey, mister Griffin, the anyone who

1892
01:50:45.960 --> 01:50:48.479
has a doctorate degree I want to call doctor. It's

1893
01:50:48.479 --> 01:50:49.319
all right if I call you.

1894
01:50:49.359 --> 01:50:51.319
Doctor, I'll listen to anything you called me back.

1895
01:50:51.600 --> 01:50:56.199
Understand that. But now, your degree, though, is in criminal justice.

1896
01:50:56.560 --> 01:50:57.119
Is that correct?

1897
01:50:57.159 --> 01:50:58.079
That is correct? Yes, sir.

1898
01:50:58.159 --> 01:51:01.520
You're not a doctor of pathology, absolutely not, and you

1899
01:51:01.600 --> 01:51:02.760
have no medical training.

1900
01:51:03.000 --> 01:51:05.880
I have training in pathology of gunshot ones, yes, sir.

1901
01:51:05.920 --> 01:51:09.560
I've attended several courses, classes, and seminars. It was also

1902
01:51:09.680 --> 01:51:13.399
included in the criteria for the certifications I mentioned for

1903
01:51:13.479 --> 01:51:18.520
the International Association for Identification. I've also conducted extensive research

1904
01:51:18.680 --> 01:51:22.439
on police officer use of force cases and the injuries

1905
01:51:22.439 --> 01:51:23.880
that result from Therein.

1906
01:51:25.399 --> 01:51:28.039
Your doctorate is in criminal justice, and I believe your

1907
01:51:28.560 --> 01:51:31.760
dissertation research is in use of force and perceptions of

1908
01:51:31.800 --> 01:51:34.640
public attitude held by police trainers that is correct.

1909
01:51:34.720 --> 01:51:38.800
What was that well with the current atmosphere or what's

1910
01:51:38.840 --> 01:51:41.000
been going on the last five or six years in

1911
01:51:41.079 --> 01:51:45.119
our country. I was just trying to help. I wanted

1912
01:51:45.159 --> 01:51:49.079
to figure out something that would assist with because we've

1913
01:51:49.079 --> 01:51:52.439
seen some law enforcement officers do some terrible things on video.

1914
01:51:53.640 --> 01:51:58.359
We've also we've got a segment of our society, the

1915
01:51:58.439 --> 01:52:03.439
minority segment of our popular A lot of those citizens

1916
01:52:03.479 --> 01:52:06.199
are in fear of law enforcement. And I wanted to

1917
01:52:06.840 --> 01:52:11.000
study if the media perception as held by the three

1918
01:52:11.079 --> 01:52:16.239
types of law enforcement trainers, if the media perception and

1919
01:52:16.279 --> 01:52:20.159
the way they portray law enforcement, if that affected the

1920
01:52:20.199 --> 01:52:23.399
way we train our officers, if we're too hyper vigilant,

1921
01:52:24.079 --> 01:52:26.199
or if we you know, we tell them, look, there's

1922
01:52:26.239 --> 01:52:28.840
death waiting for you around every corner. Is that going

1923
01:52:28.920 --> 01:52:31.479
to make law enforcement more prone to use force or

1924
01:52:31.520 --> 01:52:35.520
more or use less force, or those kinds of criteria.

1925
01:52:35.560 --> 01:52:37.800
And that's what I was interested in. I was laying

1926
01:52:37.800 --> 01:52:41.920
the groundwork with a scientific, quantitative study to allow someone

1927
01:52:42.000 --> 01:52:47.439
to come behind me and and do some further research

1928
01:52:47.600 --> 01:52:49.079
just to expand that topic.

1929
01:52:52.720 --> 01:52:57.720
But you've said you also have done some gunshot wound

1930
01:52:57.960 --> 01:53:00.960
training as part of some certification, Yes, sir, the.

1931
01:53:00.840 --> 01:53:04.600
II as I mentioned, I was formally certified two different times.

1932
01:53:04.640 --> 01:53:07.319
I think it's a five year certification, and I did

1933
01:53:07.439 --> 01:53:10.880
let it lapse in twenty fifteen because that's when I

1934
01:53:10.880 --> 01:53:13.760
started my PhD and I couldn't study for both. But

1935
01:53:13.840 --> 01:53:19.359
that is an extensive process where you do research and

1936
01:53:18.720 --> 01:53:21.880
you are you have to do a written test and

1937
01:53:21.920 --> 01:53:26.640
then with my proficiencies throughout SLED and then I still

1938
01:53:26.680 --> 01:53:29.359
do some with our Sharf's office now where you have

1939
01:53:29.479 --> 01:53:35.439
to pass proficiency and that is practical examinations, testing and

1940
01:53:35.520 --> 01:53:36.239
that kind of thing.

1941
01:53:36.399 --> 01:53:41.159
Okay. Now, in this case that the state did have

1942
01:53:41.199 --> 01:53:45.359
a pathologist, doctor Riemer. Correct, Yes, sir, they did, and

1943
01:53:45.760 --> 01:53:50.640
you reviewed her autopsy report as part of your work.

1944
01:53:50.760 --> 01:53:54.039
Correct, Not so much as reviewed her report, but I

1945
01:53:54.079 --> 01:53:57.399
went and spoke with her in Charleston at her office.

1946
01:53:57.560 --> 01:53:58.560
What did you review her?

1947
01:53:58.680 --> 01:54:00.600
I have access to her report, the script, and I

1948
01:54:00.600 --> 01:54:01.920
can't tell you. I looked through the.

1949
01:54:01.840 --> 01:54:05.560
Whole report, and you understood that her opinion was that

1950
01:54:05.720 --> 01:54:10.279
it was a shoulder shot through the through the neck

1951
01:54:10.359 --> 01:54:12.199
and then up out of the top of the head.

1952
01:54:12.319 --> 01:54:15.039
Is that correct, Yes, sir, I believe we agreed on

1953
01:54:15.079 --> 01:54:17.039
that and in your.

1954
01:54:18.119 --> 01:54:23.319
Reconstruction opinion, is that's the exact same angle that Paul

1955
01:54:23.399 --> 01:54:27.680
was shot by the shooter shoulder, not out the top

1956
01:54:27.720 --> 01:54:28.119
of the head.

1957
01:54:28.199 --> 01:54:31.439
Yes, sir, But I didn't just rely on her information.

1958
01:54:31.640 --> 01:54:34.720
I also looked at the crime scene photographs and I

1959
01:54:34.760 --> 01:54:36.199
went to the scene myself.

1960
01:54:36.279 --> 01:54:41.159
I understand, yes, sir. But and then you did you

1961
01:54:41.199 --> 01:54:46.680
hear doctor Eigenstadt his testimony, I did. Now you worked

1962
01:54:46.680 --> 01:54:47.560
with SLED, did you not?

1963
01:54:47.760 --> 01:54:48.640
I did, yes, sir.

1964
01:54:48.920 --> 01:54:50.960
Doctor Eigenstadt worked for GBI.

1965
01:54:51.239 --> 01:54:52.239
Correct, Yes, sir.

1966
01:54:53.279 --> 01:54:58.520
SLED does not have its own in house h division

1967
01:54:58.520 --> 01:55:00.319
of medical examiners, do they know?

1968
01:55:00.399 --> 01:55:04.439
So there are several fine medical examiners throughout the state.

1969
01:55:04.479 --> 01:55:07.319
I've done autopsies in a lot of the bigger cities

1970
01:55:07.359 --> 01:55:08.399
in South Carolina.

1971
01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:14.119
Doctor Eisenstadt worked and he was the chief medical examiner

1972
01:55:14.399 --> 01:55:16.680
toward then of at GBI. Correct.

1973
01:55:17.039 --> 01:55:19.720
That's what he testified to. I don't know that doctor.

1974
01:55:19.840 --> 01:55:22.119
You didn't know of him before this case.

1975
01:55:22.239 --> 01:55:22.920
I did not know.

1976
01:55:23.000 --> 01:55:28.840
So now he says his opinion is it is a

1977
01:55:28.880 --> 01:55:31.920
gunshot wound contact to the back of the head.

1978
01:55:32.039 --> 01:55:34.960
Is that correct? That is what he testified to, Yes, sir, And.

1979
01:55:35.000 --> 01:55:38.720
If that and if he is correct, then your opinion

1980
01:55:38.800 --> 01:55:40.560
is incorrect. Is that right.

1981
01:55:40.680 --> 01:55:43.600
I don't share the same opinion as that doctor, but yes,

1982
01:55:43.640 --> 01:55:45.840
if he would be correct, that would make me incorrect.

1983
01:55:45.840 --> 01:55:52.479
Now in your training, are you familiar with doctor uh

1984
01:55:52.560 --> 01:55:56.600
excuse me, mister the Mao's book or Gunshot Wound.

1985
01:55:56.760 --> 01:56:00.000
I have read the Mayo. I would heard it describe.

1986
01:56:00.039 --> 01:56:03.399
I have this the Bible. I don't consider no, do

1987
01:56:03.560 --> 01:56:07.399
my corehorts consider that as the gunshot Bible. There's four

1988
01:56:07.479 --> 01:56:11.399
or five different versions out. There's one called Terminal Ballistics

1989
01:56:11.399 --> 01:56:15.119
by Dobb and there's also one Gunshot Wounds by Doherty,

1990
01:56:15.520 --> 01:56:17.720
and those are the ones that I'm more familiar with.

1991
01:56:17.800 --> 01:56:20.079
But I'm not saying it's a bad textbook, and I'm

1992
01:56:20.079 --> 01:56:22.279
not saying that the information and it's not correct.

1993
01:56:22.479 --> 01:56:29.800
Okay now, and we'll get more of that than a moment.

1994
01:56:30.760 --> 01:56:36.880
What I'd like to do is first address mister Sutton's

1995
01:56:36.880 --> 01:56:38.560
work that you had criticisms of.

1996
01:56:39.119 --> 01:56:42.560
Well, I didn't have criticisms. We just have different opinions.

1997
01:56:43.520 --> 01:56:48.159
He's an engineer and I'm a crime scene investigator. Mister Griffin, Well,

1998
01:56:48.720 --> 01:56:49.079
I just.

1999
01:56:50.520 --> 01:56:55.640
Seems like you said that the angles of the to

2000
01:56:55.720 --> 01:56:59.640
the qwel pen were unreliable.

2001
01:56:59.560 --> 01:57:05.039
Absolute and I have several more criteria that I didn't

2002
01:57:05.079 --> 01:57:07.000
mention earlier. But I mean, if you want me to

2003
01:57:07.000 --> 01:57:07.920
go into those, I will.

2004
01:57:09.000 --> 01:57:12.680
Well, I want to ask you first, which what's your

2005
01:57:12.760 --> 01:57:16.520
understanding as of how those measurements were taken? First? Who

2006
01:57:16.520 --> 01:57:18.159
took those measurements in the twelve pen.

2007
01:57:18.199 --> 01:57:22.520
The original angles were the original slid crime scene agent

2008
01:57:22.680 --> 01:57:25.880
that responded to the scene and took those angles.

2009
01:57:26.880 --> 01:57:32.239
And you understand that mister Sutton relied upon Agent Warley's measurements.

2010
01:57:32.279 --> 01:57:34.039
I do, Okay, I do.

2011
01:57:34.560 --> 01:57:38.039
Now, Now you were putting a doll, shoving the in

2012
01:57:38.119 --> 01:57:40.920
a box and taking the alpha box as if mister

2013
01:57:40.960 --> 01:57:43.239
Sutton went back and tried to remeasure it.

2014
01:57:43.479 --> 01:57:45.760
No, sir, that's not what I was insinuating. I said,

2015
01:57:45.840 --> 01:57:50.680
when the original agent removed her dowel, it wasn't nefarious,

2016
01:57:51.239 --> 01:57:53.920
but depending on how she removed that dow she could

2017
01:57:53.960 --> 01:57:56.119
have altered that impact.

2018
01:57:58.039 --> 01:58:01.399
Well, let's let's take a look at that Doug states

2019
01:58:02.119 --> 01:58:10.039
excuse me, defendants exhibit one point and can you pull

2020
01:58:10.079 --> 01:58:19.800
that up? Yeah, the one you were showing with with

2021
01:58:19.960 --> 01:58:28.119
the state. Excuse me, Just go to the second slides

2022
01:58:28.119 --> 01:58:28.600
strut with.

2023
01:58:31.720 --> 01:58:32.079
There you go.

2024
01:58:32.199 --> 01:58:37.000
So you understood from this exhibit that mister Sutton relied

2025
01:58:37.079 --> 01:58:40.079
solely on the shots directories measured by Agent Warring.

2026
01:58:40.479 --> 01:58:43.560
As I said, it wasn't his intentions, mister Griffin, it

2027
01:58:43.640 --> 01:58:47.399
was his results that I disagree with. It's not absolute,

2028
01:58:48.000 --> 01:58:52.640
and he gave, in my opinion, an absolute opinion to this.

2029
01:58:53.560 --> 01:58:58.479
Well, why would special Agent Warling take measurements if if

2030
01:58:58.520 --> 01:59:02.159
someone were not should not rely upon them.

2031
01:59:02.279 --> 01:59:05.000
I can't answer that. You'd have to ask special agent wordly.

2032
01:59:05.159 --> 01:59:09.399
But in my opinion, the direction, even though she can

2033
01:59:09.520 --> 01:59:13.520
obtain a perfect angle of impact, or even if that

2034
01:59:13.680 --> 01:59:18.199
weather cardboard was damaged, it's not a good substance to

2035
01:59:18.319 --> 01:59:23.239
depend on because it's just not hardy enough. And she

2036
01:59:23.479 --> 01:59:27.039
was showing direction. I'm not saying the direction's wrong. I'm

2037
01:59:27.119 --> 01:59:31.119
just saying I wouldn't put confidence reviewing this case or

2038
01:59:31.159 --> 01:59:33.880
work in this case. I would not put confidence in

2039
01:59:33.960 --> 01:59:37.720
anything that that angle of impact tells me because it's.

2040
01:59:37.560 --> 01:59:41.600
Cardboard, all right. So if you go to slide number seven,

2041
01:59:41.840 --> 01:59:48.439
I believe I've numbered them correctly. And do you recognize

2042
01:59:48.479 --> 01:59:51.640
that as being one of her measurements? I do, yes, sir,

2043
01:59:53.000 --> 01:59:55.479
And do you think she took the dowel out and

2044
01:59:55.520 --> 01:59:59.199
then put it back in to put this measuring divide

2045
01:59:59.439 --> 02:00:00.239
mister Griffin.

2046
02:00:00.039 --> 02:00:02.600
And I didn't save the angle. I said the angle

2047
02:00:02.640 --> 02:00:06.479
of impact when he was talking about the bullet wipe

2048
02:00:07.239 --> 02:00:10.279
and that part. That's what I was referring to. And

2049
02:00:10.319 --> 02:00:12.920
that's what I'm saying. That hole can be altered when

2050
02:00:12.920 --> 02:00:17.399
you remove those dow rods. That shows direction, But that

2051
02:00:17.520 --> 02:00:20.319
direction I don't place a lot of confidence in it

2052
02:00:20.399 --> 02:00:23.880
because we have more cartridge casings and we have injuries

2053
02:00:23.880 --> 02:00:27.000
on Miss Maggie Murdoch. We don't know if this bullet

2054
02:00:27.079 --> 02:00:30.720
struck Miss Maggie Murdoch, if it struck anyone else. We

2055
02:00:30.760 --> 02:00:34.079
don't know that the defect in that doghouse struck Miss

2056
02:00:34.159 --> 02:00:37.520
Maggie Murdoch. Those are unknown that we don't know. So

2057
02:00:37.680 --> 02:00:40.199
all this proves to me is that the shooter was

2058
02:00:40.279 --> 02:00:44.039
moving and more than likely Miss Maggie Murdoch was moving right.

2059
02:00:44.319 --> 02:00:46.920
Hang on, so, Doug, you'll back up one to number six.

2060
02:00:48.640 --> 02:00:54.560
So are you suggesting that this photograph number six taken

2061
02:00:54.600 --> 02:00:58.560
by flood Edge at Worley, that that was taken after

2062
02:00:58.600 --> 02:01:01.239
the doll was removed and before dollars put in the script.

2063
02:01:01.359 --> 02:01:03.920
I don't know, That's what I'm telling you. I don't

2064
02:01:03.960 --> 02:01:06.960
know how it was altered when she removed the dowel.

2065
02:01:07.279 --> 02:01:11.640
I wouldn't place confidence in this before inserting the dowel

2066
02:01:11.800 --> 02:01:15.760
because it's paper, it's not it's not something hearty.

2067
02:01:16.319 --> 02:01:19.000
Well, would your opinions be different if you knew she

2068
02:01:19.159 --> 02:01:21.479
took the picture first before inserting it.

2069
02:01:21.520 --> 02:01:26.079
I'll still be irrelevant except for direction, because we know

2070
02:01:26.279 --> 02:01:29.039
we had a moving shooter, we know we had a

2071
02:01:29.079 --> 02:01:32.119
moving victim, and we can't prove one way or the

2072
02:01:32.199 --> 02:01:36.119
other whether the projectile that caused this defect struck Miss

2073
02:01:36.119 --> 02:01:36.840
Maggie Murdock.

2074
02:01:37.920 --> 02:01:46.319
All right, So if you'll go to flood eighth again,

2075
02:01:46.439 --> 02:01:50.359
this is agent Worley's measurements of a doll in the

2076
02:01:50.399 --> 02:01:51.840
holes that correct same picture.

2077
02:01:51.920 --> 02:01:53.600
Yes, sir, well let's.

2078
02:01:53.399 --> 02:01:58.159
Go to number nine. It's a little closer. And is

2079
02:01:58.520 --> 02:02:02.960
this measuring up and down or left and right, horizontal

2080
02:02:03.000 --> 02:02:03.239
or verse?

2081
02:02:03.359 --> 02:02:08.199
That is up and down? And I wasn't gonna mention this,

2082
02:02:08.840 --> 02:02:13.039
but the actual protractor or level founder is backwards. It

2083
02:02:13.039 --> 02:02:17.079
would be a much more confident angle if the flat

2084
02:02:17.239 --> 02:02:20.000
edge was up against the substance. But I wasn't going

2085
02:02:20.039 --> 02:02:25.079
to bring that out and you sled to this, not

2086
02:02:25.359 --> 02:02:28.000
sled to that, yes, sir, But I don't know what

2087
02:02:28.079 --> 02:02:30.319
her intentions were. Like I said, she could have just

2088
02:02:30.359 --> 02:02:33.039
been trying to show direction. I don't know that, mister Griffin.

2089
02:02:33.359 --> 02:02:36.359
Well this, I mean, this is direction, but it's up

2090
02:02:36.399 --> 02:02:37.960
and down direction, right.

2091
02:02:37.840 --> 02:02:40.880
Yes, sir. It's showing an angle of impact also.

2092
02:02:41.800 --> 02:02:45.560
And if you had confidence in the angle of impact,

2093
02:02:45.600 --> 02:02:50.079
you could do whether you're doing it with a pharaoh

2094
02:02:50.239 --> 02:02:54.039
system or just you know, the old fashioned way with

2095
02:02:54.439 --> 02:02:57.079
some sort of colored twine. I mean, that's it's a

2096
02:02:57.199 --> 02:02:59.960
legitimate way to determine shot angles.

2097
02:03:00.079 --> 02:03:02.920
I don't know what it would prove, and I've run

2098
02:03:02.960 --> 02:03:05.279
it through my head a million times. I don't know

2099
02:03:05.319 --> 02:03:07.840
what more it would prove other than you've got a

2100
02:03:07.880 --> 02:03:11.600
moving victim, you've got a moving shooter, and that at

2101
02:03:11.600 --> 02:03:14.119
some point in time, Miss Maggie Murdock was over there

2102
02:03:14.119 --> 02:03:17.079
in the vicinity of that quailpin. And we know that

2103
02:03:17.319 --> 02:03:22.520
because we identified that tire tread impression on her leg

2104
02:03:22.600 --> 02:03:25.520
as being from that Polaris or another or another tire

2105
02:03:25.680 --> 02:03:27.960
just like it. So I know that already.

2106
02:03:28.479 --> 02:03:35.000
So if you go to slide twelve, please just exhibit seventy.

2107
02:03:35.680 --> 02:03:39.000
So you know that the shot angle through the quelpin

2108
02:03:39.199 --> 02:03:41.840
also went through the feed room. I mean, excuse me,

2109
02:03:41.880 --> 02:03:47.479
through the shed through that wooden. I mean that wouldn't

2110
02:03:47.840 --> 02:03:48.720
wall there, correct.

2111
02:03:48.960 --> 02:03:51.560
I don't think I observed a photograph of the inside

2112
02:03:51.600 --> 02:03:54.239
of the shed. I may have, but I don't believe

2113
02:03:54.239 --> 02:03:55.319
I ever observed that.

2114
02:03:55.840 --> 02:03:58.039
What do you see number twelve going all the way through?

2115
02:03:59.079 --> 02:04:02.560
This is the doll. It goes from the outside, the

2116
02:04:02.640 --> 02:04:06.039
inside and then on through the backside of the quelpen.

2117
02:04:06.199 --> 02:04:08.560
I see it being held up by the cardboard and

2118
02:04:08.600 --> 02:04:11.439
the rabbit wire. But I don't know what's behind that cardboard.

2119
02:04:12.600 --> 02:04:18.039
You're unaware that it actually went through the wood there.

2120
02:04:18.199 --> 02:04:18.920
You didn't know that.

2121
02:04:19.199 --> 02:04:21.079
I do not know. And like I said, I don't

2122
02:04:21.119 --> 02:04:24.079
see what it would prove. I don't see any more

2123
02:04:24.079 --> 02:04:26.039
that it would prove. Then you've got to move and

2124
02:04:26.079 --> 02:04:27.720
suspect and a moving victim.

2125
02:04:27.920 --> 02:04:33.960
Well, if the measurement that included going through fixed wood sighting,

2126
02:04:34.560 --> 02:04:37.760
that would give you more confidence that the angle is accurate,

2127
02:04:37.760 --> 02:04:38.199
would it not?

2128
02:04:39.680 --> 02:04:43.479
Yes, sir, But the angle itself will prove no more

2129
02:04:43.520 --> 02:04:47.239
from me than direction, Because what this proves to me

2130
02:04:47.399 --> 02:04:50.079
is at some point in time, Miss Maggie Murdoch was

2131
02:04:50.159 --> 02:04:54.039
close to this quailpin. If this shot is related, and

2132
02:04:54.079 --> 02:04:56.279
I have no reason to believe it's not, and my

2133
02:04:56.319 --> 02:04:59.439
shooter was moving, my victim was moving. I don't know

2134
02:04:59.479 --> 02:05:01.319
forensically what else that can prove.

2135
02:05:03.680 --> 02:05:11.840
Well, you can certainly measure the angle of the bullet

2136
02:05:12.479 --> 02:05:18.319
entrance to the quailpen and calculate backwards to see where

2137
02:05:18.319 --> 02:05:20.880
that shot was fired from. You could, yes, sir, And

2138
02:05:20.920 --> 02:05:22.760
that's what mister Sutton did.

2139
02:05:22.479 --> 02:05:25.399
Not He did, And I never disagreed with his direction.

2140
02:05:26.119 --> 02:05:31.439
I'm disagreeing with his final analysis or his final result

2141
02:05:31.640 --> 02:05:34.720
that you can judge how tall a shooter is without

2142
02:05:34.800 --> 02:05:36.680
knowing a whole lot of other variables.

2143
02:05:36.920 --> 02:05:42.479
Well, you understood that mister Sutton said that the gun

2144
02:05:43.159 --> 02:05:46.199
the barrel was somewhere on that line at some to

2145
02:05:46.239 --> 02:05:48.600
make the shot angle moving back.

2146
02:05:48.439 --> 02:05:50.800
And forth on that line, Yes, sir, I heard his testimony.

2147
02:05:50.960 --> 02:05:53.439
And then he picked a spot and said, if you

2148
02:05:54.680 --> 02:05:59.760
put the gun at a hip level to get on

2149
02:05:59.760 --> 02:06:02.960
that line. He used a five to two person as

2150
02:06:03.000 --> 02:06:07.039
an example exclusively, Yes, sir, I do. But he did

2151
02:06:07.079 --> 02:06:09.319
not say the person had to be five to two,

2152
02:06:10.119 --> 02:06:11.960
did he. I mean, we all know it could be

2153
02:06:12.039 --> 02:06:15.520
dynamic of five to eight six foot person can get low.

2154
02:06:15.800 --> 02:06:18.119
What I gathered from his testimony is it was his

2155
02:06:18.199 --> 02:06:23.279
opinion that only a person in that height range would

2156
02:06:23.520 --> 02:06:25.680
could have fired that weapon. That was my opinion.

2157
02:06:26.760 --> 02:06:30.800
Well, his opinion was that it would be a shooter

2158
02:06:30.960 --> 02:06:34.399
at six four It would be an unnatural position for

2159
02:06:34.479 --> 02:06:36.760
them to fire at that low of e level.

2160
02:06:36.920 --> 02:06:40.000
And that's the that's the part I disagree with. I

2161
02:06:40.039 --> 02:06:44.199
don't know how mister Sutton could publish an opinion about

2162
02:06:44.199 --> 02:06:45.880
what's natural or unnatural.

2163
02:06:47.760 --> 02:06:50.840
Well, if it's someone six ' four and the and

2164
02:06:50.920 --> 02:06:56.920
the the muzzle of the gun is being fired at

2165
02:06:57.640 --> 02:07:00.680
twenty eight inches off the ground, I mean the six

2166
02:07:00.760 --> 02:07:02.560
or fourth person who's got to get down on the

2167
02:07:02.560 --> 02:07:05.720
ground or hold it down below their knees. Isn't that correct?

2168
02:07:05.760 --> 02:07:09.720
I have demonstrated several different ways, depending on distance and height,

2169
02:07:09.800 --> 02:07:12.159
that a shooter can shoot any We don't know, we

2170
02:07:12.199 --> 02:07:13.239
don't have a video of it.

2171
02:07:13.199 --> 02:07:23.600
Mister Griffin, Right, But mister Sutton's methodology, I think when

2172
02:07:23.600 --> 02:07:25.520
I'm hearing now is you don't have a real dispute

2173
02:07:25.560 --> 02:07:32.640
to his methodology. He's an engineer, yes, sir, What you

2174
02:07:32.720 --> 02:07:35.359
dispute is the accuracy of the angle coming out of

2175
02:07:35.359 --> 02:07:40.520
the quel pen because of the construction being cardboard. Is

2176
02:07:40.560 --> 02:07:40.880
that right?

2177
02:07:40.960 --> 02:07:45.279
Yes, sir, I said that if I was investigating that

2178
02:07:45.960 --> 02:07:52.199
and even reviewing that case as a consult I put

2179
02:07:52.359 --> 02:07:56.520
little or no confidence in that angle of the impact

2180
02:07:56.560 --> 02:08:00.119
of that cardboard. Now I put much greater confidence in

2181
02:08:00.159 --> 02:08:01.479
the one for the dog kennel.

2182
02:08:01.960 --> 02:08:10.680
Okay, Well, let's see if we can. You mentioned you

2183
02:08:10.800 --> 02:08:15.680
had a fair amount of confidence in the at least

2184
02:08:15.720 --> 02:08:18.720
one of the angles coming out of out of the quellpen.

2185
02:08:19.159 --> 02:08:22.239
Right left or right? The direction, yes, sir, the direction,

2186
02:08:23.800 --> 02:08:31.680
And so that's take a look at that right quick.

2187
02:08:33.880 --> 02:08:45.159
And Doug, if you'll go to.

2188
02:08:46.960 --> 02:08:50.319
Time, please go to the jury room. Please not discuss

2189
02:08:50.359 --> 02:08:50.720
the case.

2190
02:08:57.079 --> 02:09:01.279
Doc Kenzie, I'm still talking about the quell pen. You

2191
02:09:01.279 --> 02:09:04.680
remember how tall off the ground that defect is?

2192
02:09:06.119 --> 02:09:07.840
I do not remember, mister Griffin.

2193
02:09:11.319 --> 02:09:16.960
If I would show you Agent Wardley's report, take a

2194
02:09:17.000 --> 02:09:19.039
look at We don't want, sorry, any evidence somewhere, but

2195
02:09:19.119 --> 02:09:23.359
if you could just fill the jury and that's consistent

2196
02:09:23.399 --> 02:09:25.359
with your understanding.

2197
02:09:25.720 --> 02:09:26.399
Of how high that.

2198
02:09:33.800 --> 02:09:34.920
Four foot two inches?

2199
02:09:35.520 --> 02:09:41.479
Yes, sir, okay, And did you did you inspect when

2200
02:09:41.479 --> 02:09:44.000
you were out there? Did you inspect the entry in

2201
02:09:44.000 --> 02:09:47.720
the twelpen or the damage to the shop behind the

2202
02:09:47.720 --> 02:09:48.560
twelve pen at all.

2203
02:09:49.239 --> 02:09:51.359
I looked at all of it, but I did not

2204
02:09:51.479 --> 02:09:52.520
run any angles.

2205
02:09:52.680 --> 02:09:55.039
Okay, And did you ever talk to Agent Warley about

2206
02:09:55.359 --> 02:09:56.319
her measurements?

2207
02:09:56.560 --> 02:09:59.479
I did, yes, sir, I did interview Agent Warley about

2208
02:09:59.479 --> 02:10:03.239
her work on where was that? Back to? First or

2209
02:10:03.319 --> 02:10:07.119
second week of December at the new Sled Laboratory. I

2210
02:10:07.119 --> 02:10:09.479
can give you an exact date if I look back

2211
02:10:09.479 --> 02:10:10.119
through my notes.

2212
02:10:10.239 --> 02:10:14.239
I don't need that. But are you being compensated for

2213
02:10:14.279 --> 02:10:14.760
your time?

2214
02:10:14.840 --> 02:10:15.800
I am yes, sir.

2215
02:10:16.319 --> 02:10:18.840
And how much have you been paid thus far? And

2216
02:10:18.880 --> 02:10:21.680
how much you hope to get paid before it's all

2217
02:10:21.720 --> 02:10:22.319
sudden done?

2218
02:10:22.439 --> 02:10:25.319
Well, I'm a Baptist, so if I didn't charge something,

2219
02:10:25.359 --> 02:10:27.640
my friends and family would talk bad about me. But

2220
02:10:29.079 --> 02:10:31.960
my retainer is twenty five hundred dollars and I have

2221
02:10:32.039 --> 02:10:35.399
a flat one hundred dollars an hour rate, and when

2222
02:10:35.439 --> 02:10:39.000
I added it up, I was up a little over

2223
02:10:39.079 --> 02:10:44.800
one hundred hours. But I ended my retainer myself without

2224
02:10:44.840 --> 02:10:47.399
anyone asking me to do a little over a week

2225
02:10:47.399 --> 02:10:49.920
and a half ago. And I'm now working off of

2226
02:10:49.960 --> 02:10:52.840
a mutual aid agreement that my sheriffs allowing me to

2227
02:10:52.880 --> 02:10:55.840
do that, Sheriff Lee Royd Revenuel from Orangeboro. So I'm

2228
02:10:55.880 --> 02:10:59.319
not charging anything from a little bit before last week on.

2229
02:11:01.039 --> 02:11:04.359
So one hundred dollars one hundred dollars is that.

2230
02:11:03.680 --> 02:11:09.399
That's roughly I've spent. I have expended roughly. Not all

2231
02:11:09.439 --> 02:11:11.600
of it was daytime, but if I take off, I

2232
02:11:11.680 --> 02:11:14.319
have to use personal leave from work sure to do

2233
02:11:14.399 --> 02:11:18.520
this work. So roughly seventy five eighty hours I have

2234
02:11:18.960 --> 02:11:20.279
used of time from work.

2235
02:11:21.560 --> 02:11:25.960
Okay, so you've made seventy five hundred, ten thousand dollars.

2236
02:11:26.159 --> 02:11:28.319
Well, I've spent way more than that running up and

2237
02:11:28.319 --> 02:11:31.119
down the highways, mister Griffin. I've probably been to twenty

2238
02:11:31.159 --> 02:11:33.039
meetings or so. But yes, sir, if you look at

2239
02:11:33.079 --> 02:11:39.920
it that way. Now done back to the exhibit, but

2240
02:11:40.000 --> 02:11:41.840
I will be going up next week.

2241
02:11:44.119 --> 02:11:48.279
Exhibit one forty. And if you'll go to slide thirty

2242
02:11:48.319 --> 02:11:56.720
one please, I think it's the right number. Yeah. So

2243
02:11:56.880 --> 02:12:00.520
this is from mister Sutton, and it's goot. Let's just

2244
02:12:00.560 --> 02:12:04.319
focus on the angle going in the qwell, pen, this

2245
02:12:04.399 --> 02:12:07.119
is not a height issue. This is this is the angle.

2246
02:12:07.159 --> 02:12:09.119
Do you have any disagreement with this angle?

2247
02:12:09.680 --> 02:12:12.199
I don't the only problem I have with it I

2248
02:12:12.359 --> 02:12:15.039
know there was a side by side there, and I

2249
02:12:15.079 --> 02:12:18.079
don't see the side by side depicted on this photograph,

2250
02:12:18.600 --> 02:12:20.600
So looking at it, I could not tell you how

2251
02:12:20.600 --> 02:12:22.039
that would play into that angle.

2252
02:12:23.000 --> 02:12:28.960
Okay, But and the well, look the quell pen's four

2253
02:12:29.000 --> 02:12:31.680
feet the defect in the quell pens four feet two

2254
02:12:31.680 --> 02:12:36.640
inches off the ground and in according to the agent Warley,

2255
02:12:37.000 --> 02:12:42.039
the shot angle is rising either one degree or one

2256
02:12:42.039 --> 02:12:45.039
and a half degrees or three degrees. Is that consis

2257
02:12:45.279 --> 02:12:47.520
that's accurate? Yes, sir, Well, let me ask you. Do

2258
02:12:47.560 --> 02:12:50.600
you believe the shot angle is is rising? I mean

2259
02:12:50.680 --> 02:12:53.359
you may not agree with that exact angle, but do

2260
02:12:53.399 --> 02:12:55.439
you believe it's rising toward the quel pit?

2261
02:12:55.760 --> 02:12:55.920
Well?

2262
02:12:55.960 --> 02:12:59.119
I believe it could be, yes, sir, I do.

2263
02:12:59.119 --> 02:13:01.039
Do you believe it could be a.

2264
02:13:01.079 --> 02:13:03.479
Downward I do not leave looking at it that it

2265
02:13:03.520 --> 02:13:06.079
could be downward, No, sir, So.

2266
02:13:06.000 --> 02:13:07.199
We can eliminate downward.

2267
02:13:07.640 --> 02:13:11.600
Well, if you're going by my results, I'm saying that

2268
02:13:11.640 --> 02:13:13.359
I don't believe it's downward.

2269
02:13:14.760 --> 02:13:17.640
And so if it's going upward, and then you take

2270
02:13:17.640 --> 02:13:22.239
that line bag that we see this line at some

2271
02:13:22.359 --> 02:13:24.159
point in time, it's going to go into the ground

2272
02:13:24.159 --> 02:13:29.319
well or not it should, yes, sir, And do you

2273
02:13:29.399 --> 02:13:33.119
know where that terminal point is? Roughly?

2274
02:13:33.439 --> 02:13:35.800
I have no idea, Miss Griffin. As I said, I

2275
02:13:35.840 --> 02:13:37.960
know I've got a moving victim. I know I've got

2276
02:13:38.000 --> 02:13:40.960
a move in suspect. I know there's a lot of movement.

2277
02:13:41.079 --> 02:13:44.439
I don't see where that's worth twenty five cent or

2278
02:13:44.479 --> 02:13:46.800
a quarter one way or the other. It gives me

2279
02:13:46.840 --> 02:13:51.039
an idea that this is a fluid and dynamic crime scene.

2280
02:13:51.279 --> 02:13:56.600
Well, if you had confidence in the vertical angle, then

2281
02:13:58.800 --> 02:14:02.479
you would be able to determine the depending on where

2282
02:14:02.560 --> 02:14:05.199
along the way, you would be able to determine the

2283
02:14:05.239 --> 02:14:06.520
height of the muzzle of the gun.

2284
02:14:06.720 --> 02:14:10.840
If you had confidence in the ape, well, I'd have

2285
02:14:10.920 --> 02:14:14.079
to know a bunch of unknowns. Also, how the shooters

2286
02:14:14.079 --> 02:14:17.720
holding the gun, how tall the shooter is, what did

2287
02:14:17.760 --> 02:14:19.479
he move a shell case? And did he not? I

2288
02:14:19.840 --> 02:14:21.479
I don't know those things and I'm not going to

2289
02:14:21.560 --> 02:14:22.600
make him up now.

2290
02:14:22.840 --> 02:14:24.560
I mean, would you have to know all those things

2291
02:14:24.840 --> 02:14:28.279
to know how high the muzzle is off the ground

2292
02:14:28.439 --> 02:14:29.960
at any point along that line?

2293
02:14:30.239 --> 02:14:32.760
If you give me a fixed point, and I knew

2294
02:14:32.760 --> 02:14:36.199
that I had a strategic fixed position, I was shooting,

2295
02:14:36.159 --> 02:14:37.880
and I could sure I could run a tape measure

2296
02:14:38.319 --> 02:14:39.279
and know where they were at.

2297
02:14:39.520 --> 02:14:41.880
And it doesn't matter what the seven four six four

2298
02:14:42.239 --> 02:14:45.319
four four person, the muzzle is going to be at

2299
02:14:45.640 --> 02:14:46.760
a fixed spot.

2300
02:14:47.640 --> 02:14:49.840
Right, That's the way angles work, Yes, sir.

2301
02:14:49.760 --> 02:15:03.520
Okay, thank you. Now on this Pharaoh, and pharaoh is

2302
02:15:03.560 --> 02:15:04.800
the sled?

2303
02:15:04.880 --> 02:15:05.840
Does pharaoh work?

2304
02:15:05.880 --> 02:15:06.960
Do they not? Yes, sir?

2305
02:15:07.039 --> 02:15:09.159
And it is the state of the art technology. I'm

2306
02:15:09.159 --> 02:15:10.640
scanning and getting measurements.

2307
02:15:10.800 --> 02:15:12.880
It is the new thing. We use the sketch pad

2308
02:15:12.880 --> 02:15:15.840
and a pencil. But I do understand the uh, the

2309
02:15:16.159 --> 02:15:17.760
the technical part of it.

2310
02:15:19.199 --> 02:15:22.359
And and would you agree with me that the feed

2311
02:15:22.439 --> 02:15:24.720
room would be about right in here? Can you see that?

2312
02:15:26.560 --> 02:15:27.920
Do you want to come down and point out where

2313
02:15:27.960 --> 02:15:30.399
the feed room would be it? And on this angle?

2314
02:15:31.239 --> 02:15:34.960
Excuse me, on this Pharaoh, then I'll give you.

2315
02:15:34.840 --> 02:15:36.640
A I thought that one.

2316
02:15:41.319 --> 02:15:42.239
I believe it's.

2317
02:15:44.119 --> 02:15:46.640
Right right there at the end of the structure.

2318
02:15:46.760 --> 02:15:49.359
Yes, okay, all right, thank you, yes sir.

2319
02:15:56.880 --> 02:15:59.560
And I guess you don't have to measure mus But

2320
02:16:00.079 --> 02:16:04.600
do you know roughly how far this this line, this

2321
02:16:04.760 --> 02:16:06.880
angle would be away from the corner of that truncture?

2322
02:16:08.000 --> 02:16:11.319
I have no idea, mister Triman, You've not done that bad.

2323
02:16:11.800 --> 02:16:13.560
No, sir, And I saw no need to you if

2324
02:16:13.560 --> 02:16:19.079
all the shellcases were up here by the shed all right.

2325
02:16:27.920 --> 02:16:43.159
Now on m H, I want to go back to

2326
02:16:43.360 --> 02:16:49.120
Paul and and his injuries and the and and I

2327
02:16:49.120 --> 02:16:52.760
guess the first I want to talk about your analysis.

2328
02:16:53.079 --> 02:16:56.280
We've been critical of you, all have been critical of

2329
02:16:57.479 --> 02:17:03.760
mister palm Bought and doctor I. But under your analysis,

2330
02:17:04.680 --> 02:17:11.079
the shot of the gun was up to the left shoulder,

2331
02:17:11.360 --> 02:17:12.719
jawing out the top of the head.

2332
02:17:13.239 --> 02:17:14.600
Yes, sir, that is my opinion.

2333
02:17:15.079 --> 02:17:17.239
And you.

2334
02:17:20.879 --> 02:17:24.040
I'm gonna come up here, and this is the theater

2335
02:17:24.159 --> 02:17:29.079
and door here. I just wan't understand where you have

2336
02:17:29.760 --> 02:17:32.239
Paul under your your analysis.

2337
02:17:32.399 --> 02:17:33.719
Is Paul on this shot?

2338
02:17:34.959 --> 02:17:39.639
Which shot the last shot, the fatal shot? Yes, well,

2339
02:17:40.399 --> 02:17:43.760
as I mentioned in my report, I would assume he's

2340
02:17:43.799 --> 02:17:48.440
closer to this wall because I've got avoid six inches

2341
02:17:48.479 --> 02:17:51.319
below that light switch. If you look at the outside

2342
02:17:51.360 --> 02:17:55.799
photograph of that building, there's a silver light cover on

2343
02:17:55.840 --> 02:17:59.719
the wall, and about six inches below that. I've got

2344
02:17:59.840 --> 02:18:03.559
one one stray satellite drop of blood, and then it's

2345
02:18:03.600 --> 02:18:06.719
fairly clean. You've got some outliers, but it's fairly clean.

2346
02:18:06.840 --> 02:18:07.360
Going down.

2347
02:18:07.440 --> 02:18:11.000
Okay, So you think Paul is closer and this will

2348
02:18:11.040 --> 02:18:12.760
be the door and it's swung open, so you think

2349
02:18:12.760 --> 02:18:14.520
Paul is closer to this sun, Well.

2350
02:18:14.399 --> 02:18:16.280
I think it would have to be Paul, because the

2351
02:18:16.319 --> 02:18:19.799
angle wouldn't match up. If the shooter was here and

2352
02:18:19.799 --> 02:18:22.879
Paul was over there, it wouldn't match up either way.

2353
02:18:22.959 --> 02:18:25.159
Whether it was down in the head or up in

2354
02:18:25.200 --> 02:18:27.479
the head, it still wouldn't match up either way. If

2355
02:18:27.479 --> 02:18:29.799
Paul was against the hinge side of the door.

2356
02:18:29.879 --> 02:18:32.760
And Paul was standing roughly hell on standing, no.

2357
02:18:32.799 --> 02:18:35.879
Sir, as I demonstrated where we tried to demonstrate, Me

2358
02:18:35.920 --> 02:18:38.520
and mister Harpootley were kind of dancing up here. But

2359
02:18:38.639 --> 02:18:42.040
I believe he come out with his head down, he's

2360
02:18:42.079 --> 02:18:44.879
drooped on the left side, and he come out on

2361
02:18:44.920 --> 02:18:49.280
this side with his shoulder just outside the room, Yes, sir, about.

2362
02:18:48.959 --> 02:18:50.399
Like that, okay.

2363
02:18:51.280 --> 02:18:54.440
And then the shooter is off to Paul's.

2364
02:18:54.159 --> 02:18:56.440
Left, yes, sir, from this side, yes, sir.

2365
02:18:57.120 --> 02:19:02.120
And the shooter has a shotgun, absolutely, and he is

2366
02:19:02.879 --> 02:19:06.920
some two and a half feet away well, and the

2367
02:19:06.959 --> 02:19:08.239
barrel is two and a half feet away.

2368
02:19:08.280 --> 02:19:10.799
That's what doctor Reimers said, Yes, sir, what do you

2369
02:19:10.879 --> 02:19:13.840
say I don't believe it was that far away. But

2370
02:19:13.920 --> 02:19:16.319
I'm not, like I said in my earlier testimony, I'm

2371
02:19:16.360 --> 02:19:19.000
not going to contradict a pathologist. She knows more about

2372
02:19:19.000 --> 02:19:20.200
the human body than I do.

2373
02:19:20.600 --> 02:19:25.479
All right, but you don't mind contradicting doctor Eisenstadt.

2374
02:19:26.120 --> 02:19:28.079
Well, because I've been to the scene and I've reviewed

2375
02:19:28.159 --> 02:19:29.920
all this element Yes, sir, that is correct.

2376
02:19:29.920 --> 02:19:34.600
Okay, Well, that's what we're doing. So if you say,

2377
02:19:34.639 --> 02:19:37.639
let's take two and a half feet from the end

2378
02:19:37.680 --> 02:19:39.600
of the muzzles that where we talk assert that is,

2379
02:19:40.159 --> 02:19:42.920
and then you've got to back to shoot her up

2380
02:19:44.120 --> 02:19:46.159
to hold the gun, and I guess if you got

2381
02:19:46.200 --> 02:19:47.680
at forty five degrees right.

2382
02:19:47.799 --> 02:19:52.559
Well, as mentioned a dozen times so far, I don't

2383
02:19:52.559 --> 02:19:56.239
know how long this shotgun is, okay, but it would

2384
02:19:56.239 --> 02:19:59.159
be here, and I don't know where he's standing, most

2385
02:19:59.239 --> 02:20:04.040
probably behind this wall because Paul is stumbling toward him.

2386
02:20:04.399 --> 02:20:04.879
So here.

2387
02:20:05.360 --> 02:20:07.879
So the shooter shooting left handed the well.

2388
02:20:07.719 --> 02:20:09.719
I don't know if he's left the right handed, mister Biffin.

2389
02:20:10.479 --> 02:20:13.280
I mean, I don't know that part right, but that

2390
02:20:13.360 --> 02:20:17.840
angle would match up despite all the h that matches up, Yes, sir,

2391
02:20:17.879 --> 02:20:19.159
if that would match up, they'll.

2392
02:20:19.000 --> 02:20:22.000
Tell me in that angle, and this doll is a gun,

2393
02:20:22.600 --> 02:20:23.879
where's that shot shell going?

2394
02:20:24.000 --> 02:20:27.520
If it adjects if I'm going into the room, it

2395
02:20:27.520 --> 02:20:30.360
could go inside the room.

2396
02:20:29.440 --> 02:20:32.399
Well you just raise it up to me.

2397
02:20:33.239 --> 02:20:34.799
I mean that under your angle.

2398
02:20:35.000 --> 02:20:37.319
But I'm behind the gun. I'm behind the gun, so

2399
02:20:37.399 --> 02:20:40.760
that's gonna push the weapon out a little bit. The

2400
02:20:40.799 --> 02:20:44.319
ejection ports on the right, so the shell could easily

2401
02:20:44.399 --> 02:20:44.959
end up in that.

2402
02:20:45.000 --> 02:20:49.319
Room if Paul's standing there, and and the and the

2403
02:20:49.440 --> 02:20:51.959
end of the muzzle that's two and a half feet away. Yes, sir,

2404
02:20:52.040 --> 02:20:56.959
you're saying ejecting the room that, yes, sir, Absolutely that

2405
02:20:57.040 --> 02:20:58.360
forty five degree, yes sir.

2406
02:20:58.520 --> 02:20:59.920
Okay, it's doable, yes sir.

2407
02:21:00.760 --> 02:21:07.559
And then under your analysis, your analysis, you're my analysis. Okay,

2408
02:21:07.719 --> 02:21:09.159
you're analysis, Yes, sir.

2409
02:21:11.319 --> 02:21:11.959
We're not there.

2410
02:21:12.079 --> 02:21:12.639
We're not there.

2411
02:21:12.760 --> 02:21:14.000
This is we're still in court.

2412
02:21:14.879 --> 02:21:20.920
The the shots going up through Paul chess Jael out

2413
02:21:21.000 --> 02:21:22.040
the top of his head.

2414
02:21:22.120 --> 02:21:25.399
Yes, sir, number two, bird shot number two, steal shot

2415
02:21:25.520 --> 02:21:27.479
dry lot three inch, Yes, sir.

2416
02:21:27.680 --> 02:21:32.319
And you counted, and I think you said one. I

2417
02:21:32.360 --> 02:21:32.879
can't remember.

2418
02:21:32.879 --> 02:21:35.639
Well, the literature says one fifty six. I was like

2419
02:21:35.719 --> 02:21:38.200
one fifty, but I kept getting tired of counting, and

2420
02:21:38.239 --> 02:21:40.360
I think I kept messing up, So I'm gonna say

2421
02:21:40.399 --> 02:21:42.360
the literature is probably correct, okay.

2422
02:21:42.520 --> 02:21:48.319
And and I think there were some sixty or seventy

2423
02:21:48.360 --> 02:21:50.239
that were founded in his body.

2424
02:21:50.760 --> 02:21:53.200
At least I have no reason to doubt that. And

2425
02:21:53.319 --> 02:21:55.120
sorry I didn't go one, two, three four and count

2426
02:21:55.159 --> 02:21:58.239
him on the X ray. But I believe that, okay.

2427
02:21:58.399 --> 02:22:10.360
And and Doug, if if you'll pull up, please uh

2428
02:22:10.360 --> 02:22:19.239
defend its exhibit Onet eighty eight, which is inevidence. Well,

2429
02:22:19.760 --> 02:22:22.600
I don't want to do that one, hang on do

2430
02:22:22.799 --> 02:22:32.719
promising for us and folks, Uh, this is gonna be

2431
02:22:32.799 --> 02:22:46.879
a a singled exhibit, so please cover your monitors, turn out,

2432
02:22:48.600 --> 02:22:52.000
and Doug, this is defendance one ninety three as soon

2433
02:22:52.000 --> 02:23:05.319
as we're ready. So you tell us you recognize this photo, yes, sir.

2434
02:23:05.840 --> 02:23:08.639
And this is the door, yes sir. And this part

2435
02:23:08.639 --> 02:23:12.479
of the door is blood spider, yes sir, it is.

2436
02:23:12.879 --> 02:23:16.200
And then there's hair, there is hair.

2437
02:23:16.120 --> 02:23:18.079
There's a little bit of bone, and there's some other

2438
02:23:18.120 --> 02:23:18.840
body tissue.

2439
02:23:18.959 --> 02:23:24.879
Okay. And there you think where is Paul in relation

2440
02:23:25.159 --> 02:23:28.440
to the.

2441
02:23:28.440 --> 02:23:31.200
Door, He would be right where I showed you. Often

2442
02:23:31.280 --> 02:23:33.959
the one hundred and thirty five ish, give or take

2443
02:23:34.000 --> 02:23:37.280
a few degrees closer to this side, so you could

2444
02:23:37.319 --> 02:23:40.760
make that angle. You can look, you can look at

2445
02:23:40.799 --> 02:23:44.559
the directionality in the blood and tell which direction it's going.

2446
02:23:45.399 --> 02:23:49.159
Okay, and coming out the top of his head would

2447
02:23:49.200 --> 02:23:54.840
be seventy five steel pellets.

2448
02:23:56.200 --> 02:24:00.000
Yes, sir, that's no other way for him to get out, Yes, sir.

2449
02:24:00.440 --> 02:24:06.280
And you went out there and you found one indentation.

2450
02:24:06.559 --> 02:24:09.319
Well it's an indentation, but that is a little deceptive

2451
02:24:09.319 --> 02:24:13.319
because you can see the paint damage to the top

2452
02:24:13.360 --> 02:24:17.000
of the door. One indent is what I found. But

2453
02:24:17.040 --> 02:24:19.600
I said, bullet defects. The X got dropped from I

2454
02:24:19.600 --> 02:24:21.799
mean the S got dropped from that. But if you

2455
02:24:21.920 --> 02:24:24.000
zoom in on that, you can see where the door

2456
02:24:24.200 --> 02:24:29.639
the paint was was just disturbed around that indentation. But

2457
02:24:29.799 --> 02:24:32.879
one proves it didn't go back the other direction, mister Griffin.

2458
02:24:32.920 --> 02:24:34.079
It doesn't take a lot.

2459
02:24:34.360 --> 02:24:37.879
So if you'll pull up one ada the definish in

2460
02:24:38.000 --> 02:24:48.200
avalanche one and this is not underseal, and zoom in

2461
02:24:48.319 --> 02:24:49.639
on the indentation.

2462
02:24:51.639 --> 02:24:55.600
There's actually several if you I mean, you're cutting in

2463
02:24:55.639 --> 02:24:56.120
on that one.

2464
02:24:56.200 --> 02:25:00.559
But so you say there are more defects on the door. Yes, sir,

2465
02:25:00.719 --> 02:25:03.760
did you document any defects that you've observed on the door?

2466
02:25:04.680 --> 02:25:06.760
I got them in a photograph I can show you.

2467
02:25:06.959 --> 02:25:10.879
I mean, what other documentation did I need to do

2468
02:25:10.920 --> 02:25:12.760
it to verify that that's the same door.

2469
02:25:13.319 --> 02:25:17.479
No, No, I'm just talking about other pellet marks.

2470
02:25:17.840 --> 02:25:19.799
There are other pellet marks on there. Yes, sir, you

2471
02:25:19.920 --> 02:25:21.959
just cut that one down. But if you move up

2472
02:25:22.000 --> 02:25:24.239
a little bit, you can see the little indentions right.

2473
02:25:24.120 --> 02:25:25.799
There in the paint all right back it.

2474
02:25:25.840 --> 02:25:30.159
I'm done right above the hinge right here, one, two, three, four, five,

2475
02:25:30.239 --> 02:25:33.040
six seven. There's several of them there.

2476
02:25:33.760 --> 02:25:36.440
And then you see this pellet here in the.

2477
02:25:37.040 --> 02:25:40.040
I did not see that, but I'm vertically challenged, and

2478
02:25:40.399 --> 02:25:42.760
I wish I could have looked up and saw that pellet.

2479
02:25:42.760 --> 02:25:45.840
But I did not see that pellet lodged in that doorframe.

2480
02:25:46.399 --> 02:25:50.120
But I'm glad miss Maybob Pombob how you say it now,

2481
02:25:50.159 --> 02:25:53.399
I'm glad he found it because that even proves my

2482
02:25:53.440 --> 02:25:54.319
point a little bit more.

2483
02:25:55.000 --> 02:25:58.799
That's I'm gonna ask you, according to your shot angle,

2484
02:25:59.319 --> 02:26:00.479
how would a pellet get there?

2485
02:26:02.280 --> 02:26:07.520
It's really I mean the cone, it's a cone, mister Griffin.

2486
02:26:07.559 --> 02:26:12.040
I've already described how shot pattern works. It's a cone.

2487
02:26:12.280 --> 02:26:15.120
So this missed his head, you think, No.

2488
02:26:15.120 --> 02:26:19.200
No, it come out of his head, and the ones

2489
02:26:19.239 --> 02:26:21.799
in the floor in the feed room probably also come

2490
02:26:21.840 --> 02:26:24.159
out of his head. They bounced off that door, the

2491
02:26:24.200 --> 02:26:25.840
OSB and in the feed room.

2492
02:26:26.559 --> 02:26:34.360
Okay, And so you believe that that this pellet that's

2493
02:26:34.440 --> 02:26:39.280
in the door jam came, threw his shoulder, threw his neck,

2494
02:26:39.559 --> 02:26:42.840
out the top of his head, and ended up at

2495
02:26:42.840 --> 02:26:43.360
that location.

2496
02:26:43.479 --> 02:26:45.520
Well it didn't turn around and come back out on

2497
02:26:45.559 --> 02:26:47.600
the top of his head, Yes, sir, I do believe that.

2498
02:26:47.639 --> 02:26:51.399
Well, now you said there's a blowback eight to ten percent?

2499
02:26:52.799 --> 02:26:55.280
What do you mean you touched on earlier as blowback

2500
02:26:55.360 --> 02:26:56.239
about eight If.

2501
02:26:56.040 --> 02:27:00.440
Someone is behind the stock of along God, and you

2502
02:27:00.479 --> 02:27:04.879
shoot someone within distance to have high velocity spatter come

2503
02:27:04.920 --> 02:27:07.079
back at you, it's going to be eight to ten

2504
02:27:07.159 --> 02:27:10.120
percent of what's in front of the gun, it's going

2505
02:27:10.200 --> 02:27:11.920
to come back at you. And a lot of the

2506
02:27:12.000 --> 02:27:13.079
literature supports that.

2507
02:27:15.079 --> 02:27:27.879
Well, were you you mean? Let me show you and

2508
02:27:27.920 --> 02:27:32.600
this is under sal please cover up, and it's defendants

2509
02:27:32.799 --> 02:27:54.360
Exhibit one under sal one. You see that what this photo? Yes, sir, Now,

2510
02:27:57.120 --> 02:28:00.319
this blood spatter down here where you say ought to

2511
02:28:00.360 --> 02:28:02.239
be standing. What's your explanation for that?

2512
02:28:04.680 --> 02:28:07.639
What do you mean? What's my explanation? What is it?

2513
02:28:08.360 --> 02:28:11.079
That is medium directional blood.

2514
02:28:10.799 --> 02:28:14.280
Spatter from what injury to Paul?

2515
02:28:14.680 --> 02:28:19.799
Probably his his brain hitting the sidewalk, would be my

2516
02:28:20.000 --> 02:28:23.360
best guess. But that's not high velocity.

2517
02:28:24.079 --> 02:28:28.280
Now you understand what mister palm Back said was that

2518
02:28:28.280 --> 02:28:31.280
that's more consistent with Paul being shot from the top

2519
02:28:31.280 --> 02:28:36.159
of the head, going through his neck, out his shoulder

2520
02:28:36.719 --> 02:28:38.600
and producing that sting.

2521
02:28:38.760 --> 02:28:41.559
I also understand mister palm Back said there's no damage

2522
02:28:41.559 --> 02:28:43.920
over here from those shot pellets, and you can't have

2523
02:28:44.000 --> 02:28:47.840
one without the other. I disagree with that result.

2524
02:28:51.120 --> 02:28:55.600
So you believe this is from Paul's brain landing.

2525
02:28:55.639 --> 02:28:59.440
Either his brain, either his brain landing on the sidewalk

2526
02:28:59.520 --> 02:29:02.559
bouncing off the door, or either his body falling in

2527
02:29:02.639 --> 02:29:06.399
body fluids outside. That's low velocity load of medium velocity.

2528
02:29:06.440 --> 02:29:11.440
That's not high velocity blood spatter. That's stomping in a

2529
02:29:11.479 --> 02:29:14.559
puddle of blood or something moving in a puddle of blood.

2530
02:29:14.639 --> 02:29:17.760
That's not the projected blood like you'd have a millimeter

2531
02:29:17.879 --> 02:29:21.600
or less in high velocity blood spatter. That's large. It

2532
02:29:21.639 --> 02:29:24.680
does show some directionality. It's coming from the doorframe or

2533
02:29:24.719 --> 02:29:28.239
either right outside the doorframe. But it's large. That's way

2534
02:29:28.280 --> 02:29:31.159
too large to be associated with the exit hole of

2535
02:29:31.200 --> 02:29:35.879
a gunshot.

2536
02:29:37.959 --> 02:29:42.440
So you understand his brain landed feet outside.

2537
02:29:43.079 --> 02:29:45.760
I do understand, mister Griffin. But I also know his

2538
02:29:45.920 --> 02:29:48.280
brain made contact with that door in the top of

2539
02:29:48.280 --> 02:29:52.200
that doorframe before it landed, and I know gravity works

2540
02:29:52.239 --> 02:29:55.840
and brings body fluids back down to Earth. You got

2541
02:29:55.840 --> 02:29:58.760
one or the other, either that or when he fell

2542
02:29:58.799 --> 02:30:02.559
in existing blood that is low velocity, like I said,

2543
02:30:02.680 --> 02:30:08.079
that's associated with something in a puddle or something large

2544
02:30:08.120 --> 02:30:12.120
that's not associated with a gunshot or high speed machinery.

2545
02:30:13.200 --> 02:30:16.000
Now, would you agree this is the avoiding area over

2546
02:30:16.000 --> 02:30:16.799
here on the door.

2547
02:30:20.440 --> 02:30:23.319
I wouldn't agree it's the void area because I don't

2548
02:30:23.360 --> 02:30:26.360
see the outline of shoes, or I don't see the

2549
02:30:26.399 --> 02:30:30.760
outline of a implement or the outline of anything else.

2550
02:30:30.799 --> 02:30:34.280
I would say there's more concentrated blood droplets over here

2551
02:30:34.319 --> 02:30:37.280
on the side of opposite the hinge, But I would

2552
02:30:37.319 --> 02:30:41.200
not necessarily agree that's a void area. I see downward

2553
02:30:41.239 --> 02:30:43.239
spatter on the door right here. For it to be

2554
02:30:43.319 --> 02:30:46.079
avoid that would have to be absent.

2555
02:30:45.719 --> 02:30:49.120
Blood when you see a little bit, I do, yes, sir,

2556
02:30:49.200 --> 02:30:49.719
but you don't.

2557
02:30:50.520 --> 02:30:52.280
You don't see very much blood on the door, not

2558
02:30:52.399 --> 02:30:58.120
compared to the other side. You're correct now. But if

2559
02:30:58.120 --> 02:31:01.959
there's something there, mister Griffin, in that spot, you're not

2560
02:31:02.000 --> 02:31:03.959
going to see a little bit. You're gonna see none.

2561
02:31:04.120 --> 02:31:06.319
If you're standing there and I splash you with blood,

2562
02:31:06.600 --> 02:31:10.840
there's gonna be two perfect bloodless footprints there. So that's

2563
02:31:10.840 --> 02:31:12.280
why I'm not considering this.

2564
02:31:12.200 --> 02:31:15.399
Avoid unless it goes up and comes down.

2565
02:31:15.680 --> 02:31:17.799
Gravity brings it down, that is right. And if your

2566
02:31:17.879 --> 02:31:20.239
person had time to move or whatever, I guess that

2567
02:31:20.239 --> 02:31:23.239
could count for it. But I don't consider the person

2568
02:31:23.280 --> 02:31:27.200
and came down, and that would do what if.

2569
02:31:27.239 --> 02:31:30.280
Body matter went over, brain went over, hit the top

2570
02:31:30.319 --> 02:31:33.840
of the door, and then bounced out and blood came down.

2571
02:31:33.879 --> 02:31:36.079
That would account for a drop here or there, would

2572
02:31:36.079 --> 02:31:36.280
it not?

2573
02:31:36.479 --> 02:31:38.079
It could count for a drop here or there. But

2574
02:31:38.200 --> 02:31:40.319
like I told you, the majority of that force is

2575
02:31:40.360 --> 02:31:44.200
applied upward, upward. That's why you got the hair on

2576
02:31:44.280 --> 02:31:47.440
the ceiling. That's why you've got the demarcation line on

2577
02:31:47.520 --> 02:31:51.559
the containers. That body fluid was directed upward with force.

2578
02:31:52.520 --> 02:32:01.600
OK, and the you mentioned there's no footprints here. Was

2579
02:32:01.639 --> 02:32:08.879
any effort made to illuminate footwear impressions through any protein enhancers.

2580
02:32:09.639 --> 02:32:11.879
I didn't see any of that, mister Griffin. If they did,

2581
02:32:12.239 --> 02:32:14.360
I see no. I saw no evidence to that one.

2582
02:32:14.360 --> 02:32:16.920
I went back to the scene. Generally, when you use

2583
02:32:17.000 --> 02:32:18.959
dicetains and that kind of thing, it's just going to

2584
02:32:19.040 --> 02:32:20.159
be there for ever.

2585
02:32:20.639 --> 02:32:24.360
I stain. Would would have picked up perhaps stain footwear

2586
02:32:24.360 --> 02:32:27.040
impressions you can't see with the naked eye, wouldn't they.

2587
02:32:26.920 --> 02:32:29.600
It may have if someone had stepped in blood and

2588
02:32:29.680 --> 02:32:30.920
left the footwear impression.

2589
02:32:33.280 --> 02:32:38.239
What there's a shooter somewhere inside or outside the door?

2590
02:32:38.399 --> 02:32:40.520
Correct, Yes, sir, I agree with that.

2591
02:32:40.799 --> 02:32:45.799
And there's no effort to determine footwear impressions of the shitter.

2592
02:32:47.440 --> 02:32:51.399
Mister Griffin. Obviously, I don't know. I don't know what

2593
02:32:51.440 --> 02:32:55.120
the process was. I know they examined some partial footwear impressions.

2594
02:32:56.000 --> 02:32:58.760
You can take this down, don but I don't know

2595
02:32:58.879 --> 02:33:00.120
how far they went beyond that.

2596
02:33:01.319 --> 02:33:03.600
Well, they certainly should have gone further than they did.

2597
02:33:03.760 --> 02:33:04.840
Would you agree with that.

2598
02:33:05.680 --> 02:33:07.799
Mister Griffin. I can only judge what I would do,

2599
02:33:08.079 --> 02:33:11.200
and sometimes I would sometimes I wouldn't if I saw

2600
02:33:11.280 --> 02:33:15.280
evidence that I had something that I needed some more detail,

2601
02:33:15.399 --> 02:33:18.559
I may would use chemicals. But it just depends on

2602
02:33:18.600 --> 02:33:19.239
the situation.

2603
02:33:40.520 --> 02:33:42.239
Kensie. I'm gonna show you what we marked is de

2604
02:33:42.319 --> 02:33:46.879
finish exhibit one ninety seven and one ninety six, and

2605
02:33:48.639 --> 02:33:55.040
I'll ask you first seven you recognize that as essentially

2606
02:33:55.040 --> 02:33:57.840
a picture outside of the feed groin door. Yes, sir,

2607
02:33:57.959 --> 02:34:02.479
I do, and and y'allor would move one ninety seven

2608
02:34:02.520 --> 02:34:05.159
in the evidence of this time without objectiona believe out objection?

2609
02:34:05.799 --> 02:34:09.280
Oh you are from both of them? Yes, any objection, driver,

2610
02:34:09.440 --> 02:34:11.399
no objection. They're both admitted right in.

2611
02:34:11.399 --> 02:34:21.719
One Uh doun, Kenzie, what will you make of those

2612
02:34:22.879 --> 02:34:25.680
pot marks on the concrete outside the feet room door.

2613
02:34:26.319 --> 02:34:29.719
I don't know, mister Griffin. Uh, I don't know what

2614
02:34:29.760 --> 02:34:33.840
they are to they be pellet, I guess they could

2615
02:34:33.879 --> 02:34:37.239
be all right, They could be from a pressure washer.

2616
02:34:37.280 --> 02:34:45.479
Also, you have these, okay, great, So so we're we're

2617
02:34:45.520 --> 02:34:49.879
seeing for the jury one ninety seven and then can

2618
02:34:49.879 --> 02:34:53.639
you zoom in there? Can you don't get don't go

2619
02:34:53.719 --> 02:35:06.719
to one ninety six onence, So those could be it

2620
02:35:06.760 --> 02:35:09.079
from a pressure washer and those could be from a

2621
02:35:10.879 --> 02:35:13.000
number two bird shot pelts.

2622
02:35:13.040 --> 02:35:14.760
Correct. Well, I don't know. I have to see the

2623
02:35:14.799 --> 02:35:17.760
seamen everywhere else to see how it's weathered.

2624
02:35:19.760 --> 02:35:29.639
All right, fair enough, now, last few questions. You mentioned

2625
02:35:29.680 --> 02:35:37.079
that that you had seen some twelve execution styff killings

2626
02:35:37.120 --> 02:35:40.600
with contact wounds to the head.

2627
02:35:40.719 --> 02:35:43.760
I said, I've worked about three dozen total. Probably twelve

2628
02:35:43.840 --> 02:35:47.680
of them were homicides to the head. The execution thing,

2629
02:35:47.879 --> 02:35:50.719
I don't know if it's execution or just contact, but

2630
02:35:50.799 --> 02:35:53.879
I will say it's self inflicted as opposed to someone

2631
02:35:53.959 --> 02:35:54.719
else doing it.

2632
02:35:55.440 --> 02:35:59.319
Well, so let's get it right. Thirty six total.

2633
02:35:59.040 --> 02:36:02.600
I thought probably three total, yes, sir, And ten thirds

2634
02:36:02.600 --> 02:36:06.040
of that was probably self inflicted. So that would leave twelve.

2635
02:36:06.040 --> 02:36:09.440
Self inflicted or usually under the chin and the mouth

2636
02:36:09.600 --> 02:36:10.200
on the side.

2637
02:36:10.280 --> 02:36:12.799
Well, the one that I witnessed was to the forehead,

2638
02:36:12.920 --> 02:36:13.959
to the fore end, yes, sir.

2639
02:36:14.719 --> 02:36:17.799
Now, of the thirty six, how many were shotguns?

2640
02:36:18.280 --> 02:36:21.879
No, I've worked a lot of self inflicted gun shot deaths.

2641
02:36:21.879 --> 02:36:23.200
I was saying shotguns.

2642
02:36:24.120 --> 02:36:28.680
Thirty six shotguns roughly twelve, and a couple of them

2643
02:36:28.680 --> 02:36:33.280
were accidents too, but yes, sir, okay, And the and

2644
02:36:33.319 --> 02:36:35.559
how many involved number two bird shot?

2645
02:36:37.959 --> 02:36:40.040
I don't recall. I had some with bird shot. I

2646
02:36:40.040 --> 02:36:43.879
don't recall. If it was number two, four, eight nine,

2647
02:36:43.680 --> 02:36:44.559
I don't know.

2648
02:36:45.079 --> 02:36:47.399
And how many were to the back of the head.

2649
02:36:48.040 --> 02:36:51.559
A dozen, probably a dozen were to the head contact

2650
02:36:51.680 --> 02:36:54.079
either of the back or the sides, or the one

2651
02:36:54.120 --> 02:36:55.639
I told you about in the front.

2652
02:36:56.319 --> 02:37:01.920
Okay, And any of those did the brain uh evacuate

2653
02:37:02.000 --> 02:37:04.479
from the from the skull cavity?

2654
02:37:04.719 --> 02:37:07.600
I have seen them. I have seen the brains come out.

2655
02:37:07.760 --> 02:37:11.959
Usually that was from one here. I'm not gonna say

2656
02:37:11.959 --> 02:37:14.239
I haven't seen it. I probably have seen it, but

2657
02:37:14.719 --> 02:37:18.079
most definitely it Like I said earlier when I described it,

2658
02:37:18.079 --> 02:37:21.479
it looks like it goes away, it's really still there.

2659
02:37:21.719 --> 02:37:25.600
It's it's just not something you can quantify. I mean,

2660
02:37:25.639 --> 02:37:27.559
it's just a mess. That's the only way I can

2661
02:37:27.639 --> 02:37:28.239
explain it.

2662
02:37:28.520 --> 02:37:31.719
In your career, have you ever worked your case where

2663
02:37:31.840 --> 02:37:34.879
a victim's brain has been evacuated the way Paul's was

2664
02:37:34.879 --> 02:37:35.639
in this case, Yes.

2665
02:37:35.520 --> 02:37:39.600
Sir, I have. And tongues also, tongue tongue and brain.

2666
02:37:39.760 --> 02:37:40.920
I have seen them, yes, sir.

2667
02:37:41.120 --> 02:37:42.719
And where those self inflicted?

2668
02:37:44.760 --> 02:37:47.399
Both, yes, sir, both.

2669
02:37:50.840 --> 02:37:59.840
And and you're talking about a shotgun, yes, sir. And

2670
02:37:59.879 --> 02:38:03.719
I think you described those as execution style killings.

2671
02:38:03.399 --> 02:38:05.719
Yes, sir, I would if you put it on somebody's

2672
02:38:05.760 --> 02:38:07.959
head from the side to the top, I wouldn't. That's

2673
02:38:08.000 --> 02:38:09.040
how I would describe it.

2674
02:38:10.239 --> 02:38:13.600
Well, let me ask you. Would you describe Paul's murder

2675
02:38:13.639 --> 02:38:16.200
here as an execution style killing.

2676
02:38:17.040 --> 02:38:20.200
In the context that someone executed him, Yes, sir, But

2677
02:38:20.520 --> 02:38:21.840
it wasn't in the top of the head.

2678
02:38:22.079 --> 02:38:26.319
I understand, yes, and that and there was no signs

2679
02:38:26.360 --> 02:38:29.079
of struggle. You agree with that?

2680
02:38:29.239 --> 02:38:30.879
I saw none, No, sir.

2681
02:38:31.000 --> 02:38:33.719
And would you agree with mister palmback that appeared that

2682
02:38:33.920 --> 02:38:35.440
Paul got caught by surprise.

2683
02:38:36.120 --> 02:38:38.280
I've said that from the start that would account for

2684
02:38:38.280 --> 02:38:43.399
his arms being down, yes, sir, and or someone he

2685
02:38:43.440 --> 02:38:44.399
was real comfortable with.

2686
02:38:45.239 --> 02:38:49.760
And even under your analysis, the the shooter would have

2687
02:38:51.159 --> 02:38:54.399
blood blow back blood on them exact correct.

2688
02:38:54.440 --> 02:38:55.760
I believe they would, Yes, sir.

2689
02:38:56.920 --> 02:38:59.520
It's just a matter of the quantity between you and

2690
02:38:59.520 --> 02:39:02.200
and mister palm baggers, how much blood would would.

2691
02:39:02.120 --> 02:39:04.479
Well, as I mentioned in my report, as you get

2692
02:39:04.520 --> 02:39:08.239
closer to the musslim of the gun, I think proportionally

2693
02:39:08.280 --> 02:39:11.680
it's going to increase. You know when I said eight

2694
02:39:11.719 --> 02:39:13.680
to ten percent is what most of the literature says,

2695
02:39:13.719 --> 02:39:18.079
that's behind the stock. But as you get proportionally closer

2696
02:39:18.120 --> 02:39:20.040
to the musle end of the gun, that's going to

2697
02:39:20.159 --> 02:39:23.399
increase because you're down at the business end where those

2698
02:39:23.440 --> 02:39:25.280
pellets are coming out doing damage.

2699
02:39:26.000 --> 02:39:30.920
And in this case you're talking about brain matter, yes, sir,

2700
02:39:31.639 --> 02:39:37.600
blood bone, yes sir, and getting it from some skull fragments, yes, sir,

2701
02:39:37.719 --> 02:39:41.319
that's possible under your scenario as well, Yes, sir, absolutely.

2702
02:39:42.280 --> 02:39:55.479
And and lastly, how many murder have you worked where

2703
02:39:56.000 --> 02:40:00.639
one person brings the high power the salt weapon that

2704
02:40:01.319 --> 02:40:06.760
has a magazine capacity of twenty or more rounds and

2705
02:40:06.840 --> 02:40:11.959
a shotgun with maximum capacity maybe three shelves.

2706
02:40:12.280 --> 02:40:15.760
Well, I have were multiple murders where the available weapons

2707
02:40:15.760 --> 02:40:19.120
there were used in several calibers were used, but I

2708
02:40:19.639 --> 02:40:22.360
can't tell you from memory of the other ones.

2709
02:40:23.200 --> 02:40:25.959
Logically, it would make sense that if you're going to

2710
02:40:26.040 --> 02:40:28.079
go kill two people and you have a high powered

2711
02:40:28.120 --> 02:40:36.559
weapon with a high capacity magazine, that was all you

2712
02:40:36.680 --> 02:40:38.319
need to do the job.

2713
02:40:38.440 --> 02:40:41.719
Right, Well, if the weapons available, mister Griffin, if it's

2714
02:40:41.760 --> 02:40:45.120
there and it's available, and maybe it wasn't something that

2715
02:40:45.200 --> 02:40:47.520
I put a lot of thought in, I'm probably going

2716
02:40:47.559 --> 02:40:48.879
to use whatever was available.

2717
02:40:52.280 --> 02:40:56.040
Well, here we know there were two weapons available. There

2718
02:40:56.079 --> 02:41:01.200
was a twelve gay shotgun and a they are fifteen

2719
02:41:01.239 --> 02:41:06.719
style three hundred blackout, yes, sir, and both were used, Yes, sir,

2720
02:41:07.760 --> 02:41:10.200
And there was sufficient capacity in the three hundred blackout

2721
02:41:12.079 --> 02:41:13.440
to kill both Maggie and Paul.

2722
02:41:14.200 --> 02:41:18.600
Well in a perfect scenario, a shotgun is what I

2723
02:41:18.600 --> 02:41:22.920
would want at night with moving targets. But in a

2724
02:41:22.920 --> 02:41:26.079
perfect scenario, a young man doesn't take a double loped

2725
02:41:26.079 --> 02:41:27.879
buck shot to the middle of the chest and walk

2726
02:41:27.959 --> 02:41:30.440
away from it. So I don't know, I don't think

2727
02:41:30.520 --> 02:41:32.799
like that. I don't know, but in the dark, I'd

2728
02:41:32.879 --> 02:41:51.680
rather have a shotgun than that rifle they courts and

2729
02:41:51.719 --> 02:41:52.920
dolgans and just a shupard.

2730
02:42:05.760 --> 02:42:11.600
One more line of question. You you demonstrated shot from

2731
02:42:11.600 --> 02:42:14.639
the top of the head with Attorney General Wilson a

2732
02:42:14.680 --> 02:42:20.920
moment ago. Yes, sir, Now that was mister palmback. Never

2733
02:42:21.479 --> 02:42:24.440
put anybody inside the door of the way y'all demonstrated.

2734
02:42:24.479 --> 02:42:26.239
And his testimony, did he That is the way I

2735
02:42:26.280 --> 02:42:29.799
understood it, Yes, sir, Well, I mean he said that

2736
02:42:30.799 --> 02:42:32.719
what can you come up here with the void?

2737
02:42:32.840 --> 02:42:35.079
You're you're talking about the void? He said, there's a

2738
02:42:35.159 --> 02:42:37.799
void here, and this is where I believe the shooter

2739
02:42:37.879 --> 02:42:39.639
would be if I'm not mistaken.

2740
02:42:39.239 --> 02:42:41.760
Right, So if you'll come up here, mister ar Bootlin

2741
02:42:41.799 --> 02:42:43.840
and let me sign the dowel, let me bend down.

2742
02:42:43.920 --> 02:42:51.079
Don't let him bend down like Jack shutting eternal shut.

2743
02:42:53.319 --> 02:42:53.680
Mm hm.

2744
02:42:54.239 --> 02:42:57.559
So so if you're coming out of the threaten, so

2745
02:42:57.719 --> 02:43:02.600
get you're gonna get that. Yeah, yeah, get there all

2746
02:43:02.760 --> 02:43:10.600
up to the ground and over like that further. All right, Yeah,

2747
02:43:09.879 --> 02:43:13.000
you probably need to get down further, but you probably

2748
02:43:13.040 --> 02:43:16.559
can't do that. But the shot to the head as

2749
02:43:16.600 --> 02:43:19.079
he's coming up right for.

2750
02:43:21.079 --> 02:43:23.639
But he'd have to be twisted this way for it

2751
02:43:23.680 --> 02:43:25.680
to work out with the arm at that seat.

2752
02:43:25.840 --> 02:43:30.760
Okay, yes, but that's fine, that's fine. But mister palm

2753
02:43:30.840 --> 02:43:32.760
Bake never said that they passed.

2754
02:43:32.399 --> 02:43:35.920
In the doorway. He might not have said those words,

2755
02:43:35.920 --> 02:43:38.280
but that was my inference. Sit there as a boy there,

2756
02:43:39.440 --> 02:43:42.000
and when he's in the picture holding his hands here,

2757
02:43:42.799 --> 02:43:46.360
I took that to be Paul's head, so that that's

2758
02:43:47.079 --> 02:43:47.360
all right?

2759
02:43:48.079 --> 02:43:49.840
Okay, did you not understand when he was in the

2760
02:43:49.879 --> 02:43:54.040
picture there he was demonstrating what your angle had to

2761
02:43:54.079 --> 02:43:55.159
be to make it work.

2762
02:43:55.520 --> 02:43:57.600
Well, I wouldn't in the in the door with my

2763
02:43:57.639 --> 02:43:58.760
angle understand.

2764
02:43:58.879 --> 02:44:02.840
Yeah, okay, all right, thank you, yes sir, that's all

2765
02:44:02.879 --> 02:44:14.920
we have, Thank you, free all right?

2766
02:44:15.040 --> 02:44:22.000
Uh, doctor Kinzie. You've had an opportunity to speak with uh,

2767
02:44:22.120 --> 02:44:25.879
with doctor Riemer, the pathologists that actually examined Maggie Paul.

2768
02:44:25.920 --> 02:44:27.239
Correct, yes, sir, I have, and you.

2769
02:44:27.239 --> 02:44:30.319
Had an opportunity to observe and listen to the testimony

2770
02:44:30.360 --> 02:44:33.639
of doctor I think it's Eisenstatt, who was a pathologist

2771
02:44:33.680 --> 02:44:35.239
that did not examine Maggie and Paul.

2772
02:44:35.280 --> 02:44:36.319
Correct, Yes, sir.

2773
02:44:36.920 --> 02:44:38.799
You've also had an opportunity to go to the crime

2774
02:44:38.840 --> 02:44:41.840
scene and observe the feed room, observed the areas for

2775
02:44:41.920 --> 02:44:44.559
both Maggie and Paul or murdered. Correct, that is correct.

2776
02:44:44.719 --> 02:44:47.120
You've had an opportunity to observe all the brain matter

2777
02:44:47.200 --> 02:44:49.639
and tissue and the defects and the doors in the

2778
02:44:49.639 --> 02:44:53.479
wood and everything and get a complete context for what

2779
02:44:53.600 --> 02:44:54.319
happened that night.

2780
02:44:54.360 --> 02:44:56.120
Correct, Yes, sir, that is correct.

2781
02:44:57.000 --> 02:45:01.200
Is doctor Reemer or doctor Eisenstatts con declusions about the

2782
02:45:01.520 --> 02:45:04.079
trauma to the bodies, which one of them is more

2783
02:45:04.079 --> 02:45:06.559
consistent with what happened at the crime scene. As you

2784
02:45:06.600 --> 02:45:08.440
observe if you're expert background.

2785
02:45:09.040 --> 02:45:11.239
Well, I'll start by saying I don't know either one

2786
02:45:11.239 --> 02:45:12.879
of them from a can of paignt This was my

2787
02:45:12.959 --> 02:45:17.799
first time ever meeting doctor Rhema. But my opinions are

2788
02:45:17.840 --> 02:45:21.879
consistent with hers. I vary a little bit on the distance,

2789
02:45:21.920 --> 02:45:23.639
but like I said, I'm not going to argue with

2790
02:45:23.719 --> 02:45:27.319
a pathologist that's not my I'm not that kind of doctor.

2791
02:45:27.799 --> 02:45:29.479
Real quick. You differ with her a little bit on

2792
02:45:29.520 --> 02:45:30.280
the distance of what.

2793
02:45:30.559 --> 02:45:33.360
The fatal shot to Paul's shoulder. I believe it was

2794
02:45:33.399 --> 02:45:35.559
a little bit closer, and I can't account for that

2795
02:45:35.680 --> 02:45:39.719
lack of stippling. But other than that, her opinions and

2796
02:45:39.799 --> 02:45:41.680
my opinions are fairly consistent.

2797
02:45:41.840 --> 02:45:44.120
But that would not change that difference of opinion would

2798
02:45:44.120 --> 02:45:46.399
not change your conclusions either way, No, sir.

2799
02:45:46.280 --> 02:45:46.799
They would not.

2800
02:45:48.520 --> 02:45:51.799
For the sake of its redirect. What's assume for a

2801
02:45:51.799 --> 02:45:55.120
moment that the angles, the angle of impact, and the

2802
02:45:55.159 --> 02:45:59.600
direction that the defense posed were accurate. Are there other

2803
02:45:59.760 --> 02:46:04.280
very that the defense experts didn't account for that could

2804
02:46:04.360 --> 02:46:05.559
change the heights of the shooter?

2805
02:46:07.840 --> 02:46:14.159
Well, as I demonstrated, positioning distance, height, the way you're

2806
02:46:14.200 --> 02:46:17.799
holding the weapon, that could place those cartridge cases there.

2807
02:46:18.399 --> 02:46:21.280
It's nothing uniform about it. As I said, it's static

2808
02:46:21.319 --> 02:46:22.079
and dynamic.

2809
02:46:22.920 --> 02:46:26.239
So the shooter is running around and the victim is

2810
02:46:26.280 --> 02:46:30.600
moving correct, Yes, sir, it's chaotic, Yes, sir, it's.

2811
02:46:30.440 --> 02:46:32.639
Crazy, Yes, sir, I would imagine it was.

2812
02:46:34.479 --> 02:46:37.719
There's no way to know unless you were there, how

2813
02:46:37.760 --> 02:46:40.559
the gun was being shouldered, where it was being held,

2814
02:46:40.719 --> 02:46:43.639
the angle. There's no way to know that I have

2815
02:46:44.200 --> 02:46:51.680
knowing that you asked about how much you were being

2816
02:46:51.719 --> 02:46:54.719
paid to be here today? Do you recall what the

2817
02:46:54.760 --> 02:46:57.479
hourly rates of the defense experts were when they testified?

2818
02:46:57.639 --> 02:46:58.040
I do.

2819
02:46:59.319 --> 02:47:00.799
Can you go ahead tell me what those were?

2820
02:47:01.200 --> 02:47:03.799
Some was three hundred and fifty dollars an hour, some

2821
02:47:03.959 --> 02:47:05.959
was six hundred and fifty dollars an hour, and I

2822
02:47:05.959 --> 02:47:08.120
think one was fifty five one hundred dollars a day.

2823
02:47:08.600 --> 02:47:09.879
I'm not mistaken.

2824
02:47:10.280 --> 02:47:11.200
So there you have it.

2825
02:47:12.239 --> 02:47:14.600
What do you think one shooter or two?

2826
02:47:15.200 --> 02:47:18.760
So we got another episode headed to you next week,

2827
02:47:18.799 --> 02:47:22.079
of course on the Murdall series. Stay tuned for that

2828
02:47:22.239 --> 02:47:27.319
War Machine. The third episode in that Bad Boys series

2829
02:47:28.200 --> 02:47:32.000
is a good one and it's coming your way Tuesday.

2830
02:47:32.239 --> 02:47:35.360
Please remember to share the podcast, and hey, we got

2831
02:47:35.399 --> 02:47:40.399
a Patreon We keep massively active. That Patreon helps us

2832
02:47:40.440 --> 02:47:43.319
to run this show and pay the bills for this show,

2833
02:47:43.399 --> 02:47:49.280
So if you're so inclined, please check it out early episodes, commercial, free,

2834
02:47:49.319 --> 02:47:52.879
bonus episodes, a bunch of files. We keep it active

2835
02:47:52.920 --> 02:47:55.440
around there, and I love to interact with all the

2836
02:47:55.600 --> 02:47:59.680
celebrity members on that Patreon, so we'd love to have

2837
02:47:59.760 --> 02:48:05.719
you join us there. Patreon dot com, slash Exposed podcast files,

2838
02:48:15.040 --> 02:48:18.200
And before I do my clothes, y'all, I got I

2839
02:48:18.239 --> 02:48:23.159
don't usually talk about ratings, although I love that you

2840
02:48:23.239 --> 02:48:25.799
give the ratings, and please do so if you're joining

2841
02:48:25.799 --> 02:48:29.840
the episodes, but I don't usually talk about the comments.

2842
02:48:29.920 --> 02:48:32.639
But I have one that I did look at the

2843
02:48:32.719 --> 02:48:36.479
other day and someone had put that they really love

2844
02:48:36.559 --> 02:48:38.440
the show, and I appreciate that, but they put a

2845
02:48:38.479 --> 02:48:40.760
caveat at the end that I say much love and

2846
02:48:40.840 --> 02:48:44.879
kind of a They termed it as a creepy way,

2847
02:48:45.799 --> 02:48:49.079
and I just want to say I apologize that I'm

2848
02:48:49.120 --> 02:48:51.280
not trying to creep you out when I say that.

2849
02:48:51.280 --> 02:48:53.479
That's kind of a moniker for me, and that goes

2850
02:48:53.520 --> 02:49:00.319
back a long time, even before I hosted Exposed, So

2851
02:49:00.559 --> 02:49:02.440
I'm not trying to creep you out. When I do that,

2852
02:49:02.440 --> 02:49:04.760
that's just kind of like my moniker, my sign off,

2853
02:49:05.680 --> 02:49:08.680
and so I've got to continue to do that. I'm sorry,

2854
02:49:09.200 --> 02:49:12.040
but I'm glad you enjoy everything up to that point.

2855
02:49:12.159 --> 02:49:14.360
Just when you hear the music start playing at the end,

2856
02:49:14.440 --> 02:49:16.120
you can go ahead and shut it off. If I

2857
02:49:16.159 --> 02:49:16.920
creep you out.

2858
02:49:17.799 --> 02:49:24.440
I do apologize, but until next time for exposed scandalous

2859
02:49:24.680 --> 02:49:27.840
files of the Elite, I'm your host, Jim Chapman.

2860
02:49:28.600 --> 02:49:29.239
Much love,