Fatal Fortune: The Murder of Mike Williams Part 3

0:21 Hey, everyone, Welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite. I'm your host, Jim Chapman, and today I am wrapping up the Mike Williams story, which is a part of my Fatal Fortune series. Now, the last time that I left you, I brought you inside of Denise Williams trial, and I covered the testimonies of Mike Williams mother Sheryl Williams, as well as the testimony of Kathy Winchester, which, if you'll remember, that was Brian Winchester's ex wife and at one time part of that bestie couple duo if you will, with Brian Winchester and Mike Williams and his wife Denise.

1:07 So if you haven't listened to that, go listen to it. I also covered the fact that Brian Winchester confessed to the murder of Mike Williams, but according to him, not without the help of Denise. I also did not give you any of the details, and that was intentional. Why because I want you to get them directly from the horse's mouth, or the assholes mouth in this case. So in the next clip I'm gonna play you, you're gonna hear the testimony of Brian Winchester, and he lays out all of it on the table, from the dynamic of the friendships to its marriage, ending to the murder of Mike Williams. The cover up. Honestly one of the most interesting testimonies I've ever heard out of any testimony I've done on Exposed. So it's pretty raw. It's pretty honest, though disgusting in every single way you can imagine. It's about one hour and forty minutes in length. And here's that clip.

2:18 Waityfady, be seated place tell you next Winnes God, it's time to stay with it. Called Brian Winchester and mister Winchester. Spence worn outside your present, so you may proceed. Thank God, afternoon, good afternoon, and you just speak up a little bit. Good afternoon. That Mike Finn is not doing much, so we just need to speak up a little out. Please please introduce yourself to the jurors. Brian Winchester and mister Winchester. How old are you forty eight? Mister Winchester, do you know or did you know Mike Williams? Yes, sir, prior to two thousand. How did you know Mike Williams?

3:07 Mike and I went to high school together and got to know each other very well. We were very good friends. We continue to be friends all through college and all through UH are married getting married. And. We were we were very good friends. He was a very good friend. Prior to two thousand, were you married, yes, sir? And here were you married to Kathy? Okay? And how long have you known Kathy prior to two thousand? From high school? Would you, Mike and her all go to high school and college together?

3:49 The four of us all went to high school together, Yes, sir. Who's the four Denise? Okay? And what was Denise's relationship to Mike? Denise and Mike were high school sweethearts. My wife, Kathy and I were high school sweethearts. We all dated in high school and off and on through college and then ended up all getting married. It's my understanding both that you and Kathy had a child, yes, sir, little boy, yes, sir, And that Mike and Denise had a little girl, yes, sir. Were they roughly the same age? Yes, sir.

4:34 At some point did you and Denise become an item? I guess if you will, prior to two thousand. Yes, sir. When was that. When did it start. Yes, it's I mean the date that we used was October thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven. There was a lot that led up to that point, a lot of background. Let's talk about what led up at that point. As I said, she married her high school sweetheart. I married my high school sweetheart. And at first things were really good, I think, with all of us. But I was not a great husband and spent a lot of time away doing hobbies and just stupid stuff. And at one point I found a note in my first wife, Kathy's purse, and basically I came to realize that she had been cheating on me, or or was cheating on me with another friend from high school named Gavin, and it crushed me. And after that happened, I began to look out side of my marriage. You know, I guess I had a lot of motivations, but it led me

6:07 to uh eventually end up with Denise. We all started going out a lot, all be my wife and I, Kathy and Denise and Mike. We started going out to bars and concerts and drinking and doing a lot of things that we didn't really do well. We were all in college when probably it's more appropriate to do those sorts of things. But we started going out a lot of drinking, and I remember one night in particular. There were several nights that we did this, but one night in particularly, we we started talking about sex a lot, the four of us and I, you know, I was friends with Denise in middle school and high school, but I was never attracted to her, uh and Hill that point.

7:02 And so after we started talking about sexual things and things that married couples shouldn't be talking about with each other, I think that's when the spark kind of started between the two of us. So let's go to October thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven. You said that's the date that you used as an anniversary or something. Yes, sir, we were going out, like I said, going out a lot, and one night in particular, we were going to Floyd's and so Denise and I we pulled up on Tennessee Street, and Denise and I jumped out of a car and left Mike and Kathy to go park the car and went down to the entrance of Floyd's.

7:56 And that was the first place that we like kissed each other and ate out and we had our night out and then after we all went home, uh to our separate houses. Let you and the Nise made out that night, but Mike and Kathy were present. They were in the car, they were parking the car. It was while they were gone, park in the car. And so that night just the four of us was Lindsay Lockhart there. Not that night, not that night, not that night, was just the four of us. And so later that night, after Kathy and I went home and Mike and a Nice went home, she and I got on the phone together and we basically spent the whole night talking to each other on the phone, and it was just like, I don't know, we just we connected like everybody else. I mean, we just really connected, and we had a lot of sexual talk and had phone sex and that sort of thing, and we agreed, and then I met up the next day. I think we just met during her lunch break at work. And that's kind of what just started the whole ball rolling with her and I.

9:17 Was this a one time occurrence or was it ongoing? Was what what a one time? And hers? Oh No, that's that's just what started it. I mean then it, you know, it snowballed really fast. We started meeting in hotels. We started meeting during the work day. We started meeting whenever we had the opportunity if Mike was at work. Mike worked a lot. He really was a workaholic, quite frankly. She was not happy with with that, and UH so we started meeting uh very regular and having sex very regularly. Eventually we started uh going on trips together. There was times when she and Michaeuld go on trips and I would go and and meet with her, Like if he had a conference in Panama City, I went over and while he was in the conference, Denise and I went to Destin together, and we took trips to New York South Beach. We we spent a lot of time together Orlando. I remember going to Orlando with Kathy.

10:47 I don't remember. I don't remember if Denise and I went to Orlando just the two of us or not. Probably we we went lots of places Panama City. During that time period. You mentioned you'd go to hotel, Yes, sir, you meet up here in the day, Yes, sir, we're you're at your house, yes, sir? What about her house? We would primarily go to her house, and it was primarily during the work day. We would meet at home depot parking lot, or meet behind Kaiser College and leave a vehicle and go to her house or go to my house. Sometimes not go to get one of our houses, depends on how long she could be away from work.

11:29 But where was at Her. House was off Meridian on Starmount two fifty six Starmount, and I believe you have. A park at a Grace Lutheran Church as one of the locations to drive to carl. There was a church in the woods off of Meridian, and I would park at that church and there was a drainage ditch that ran from the church through the woods into her neighborhood, and I would walk down the drainage ditch and then there was only a short distance that I would have to walk from the drainage ditch down star Mount to get to her house to kind of be undercover, I guess, but there was a church on Meridian when I'm sorry. On Mikasuki, I don't know why we parked at churches a lot, but I guess empty parking lots. But there was a church off of Mikasuki Road that I would leave my car at occasionally after they moved to uh, Mikisuki Road to me yet as well?

12:28 Okay, when was that well, I mean it wasn't When did they move there? I don't remember exactly. I would say about a year and a half prior to Mike's death, if I had to guess. And we asked questions earlier about Lindsay Lockhart. Who's that. Lindsay Ketchem? Yes, yes, sir, right, she was primary a friend of Mike's, that Mike worked for the Ketchens, and Lindsay's the Ketchum's daughter. What about Angela Stafford?

13:08 Angela worked with the Ketchems as well and was good friends with Mike, and I spoke primarily with Mike because she worked with Mike. At some point, did you and miss Stafford also had some sort of relations we. When you say relationship, yes, sir, I believe it was my birthday. It was either my birthday at Angela's birthday. On one occasion, and we wanted to go out, the three of us, Denise and I and Angela wanted to go out, and for some reason Denise couldn't go out.

13:56 I don't know if she couldn't get a babysitter or what happened but she said no, no, you go on. And I was like, no, you don't want me to go out with her without you? And she's like no, to be fine, And so Angela and I went out and had a lot to drink and ended up back at my house in Colin And Lakes and ended up in bed together, and it was dark, and all of a sudden, the light came on in my bedroom and I looked up and Denise was standing there and she said something like she said something sarcastic and said I'm sorry or something, and ran out. And I didn't want Angela to know it was Denise. I think she did know, but I didn't want her to know, And so I lied to Angela and told her that that I thought it was my wife, my ex wife at that point. Kathy, Uh, but.

14:57 So this is after my death, Yes, sir? What is it before you and Denise and announce that y'all were dating each other? Correct? We were tiding it at that point. Talk about life insurance policies. What is it that you did back for a living back in two thousand. Part of my job was to sell life insurance. Okay, did you sell life insurance policy to Mike William. Yes, Sir, I sold him two different policies. I sold him one policy early on when we talked. He may have even well, no, we wouldn't have been in college.

15:42 It would have been right after we graduated from college. So, which is when ninety three, ninety four somewhere in there, pretty early on, because I think at first, uh he had his mother as a beneficial sherry. That was a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars policy, and that was before he was married to Denise. Eventually after they got married, he changed then inneficial on that policy to Denise. And then, uh, you want me to talk about all that I know about his policies, whether I sold him or not, or talk about Okay, So that was the first policy that I sold him. And then after I was that after Ansley was born. I believe it was after Annsley was born. Yeah, it was after Ansley was born. He uh he and I talked about increasing his coverage.

16:46 Whose idea was that to increase it? What? Was it a mutual idea? I mean it was it was a combination of Denise and I talking about him having more coverage and uh he and I talking about having him having more coverage. I mean, there was a lot of conversations behind the scenes as to getting that new policy. In all honesty, having a larger policy a million dollars on managed marrying kids making the income isn't necessary, necessarily abnormal. It's not a it wasn't extravagant based on the income that he was making.

17:29 But nonetheless there was conversations and he elected to have a million dollar policies. Yeah right, he wasn't well, I think to him it was a lot of money. I think he even had conversations with mister Catchum about it. But he, you know, he eventually uh decided and I think with Denise's encouragement, decided to uh to go ahead and get that extra million dollar policy. And when was that? Okay, when did he get the policy? Yes, I get a little confused because he had one policy that was issued that actually we didn't get the premium paid or something.

18:15 So he actually had a second policy, same thing, same company, same everything. I think there was only like a three month gap in between that, but it was within it was within I think six months to a year before his death occurred. You mentioned another policy. Let's go side bart for just saying we don't please the court report. At some point, were you aware of him having another policy and neighborhood of half a million dollars? Yes, sir, he had another policy with a different company that he bought from a different person. I don't remember when I first became aware of it, but I know I became aware of it when I would have and talking with him about a million dollar policy, and his thoughts or intentions were that he was going to drop that five hundred thousand dollars policy and replace it with the million dollar policy.

19:19 Last past forward to the year two thousand. At some point were their thoughts of how you and Denise could be together? Yes, sir, How did that get initiated? I think I think it even started prior to that, as as I thought about this and had plenty of time alone to think about it. One thing that I have remembered is the prior year, Mike and I were on a hunting tree up together, and it was at a lake that was dry, and we had to walk across the mud, and there were places in the mud where I don't know how to describe it, but basically you could fall through the mud and there was nothing underneath.

20:16 It was like it was basically I guess people would call it like quicksand and Mike fell into one of those mud holes at one time, and it was just he and I out there, and I helped him out of it, and he had dropped his gun in there as well, and he ended up going back in it after his gun. But anyways, I remember telling Denise about that and how if I hadn't have been there, or if I hadn't to help him out that, you know, it's very likely he would have disappeared. To know, he would have known what happened to him. But that's just something that I had remembered in the past few months and thinking about this. But I think it was gradual that we, you know, the more we were together, the more we wanted to be together, and the more we griped about Kathy and Mike, the more we wanted to be together. It just kind of it, it just got worse than were I mean, we just it just snowballed.

21:23 We just I don't even know how to describe it. But so, yes, we eventually started talking about options and ways that we could be together. And Denise, because of the way she was raised, because of her pride. I guess I can't say all the reasons, but she did not want to get divorced and stated that she would not get divorced, but she still had a desire for us to be together, which narrowed the options even further.

22:08 I guess I'm sorry who options It was all of our conversations and planning and everything. I would say, it's very mutual. You know, I'm not going to sit here and say that that. Uh, Denise planned everything, and and you know I was just a dumb guy who went along with what she wanted to do. I mean I I instigated a lot of it. I helped come up with ideas. I planned a lot of things, but overall it was very mutual. I mean, we wanted to be together and we weren't going to let anything stop that.

22:54 So over the year and a half year prior to Myke's death, we discussed several options and alternatives of ways that we could be together. What was one of. One of the options Mike. Mike worked a lot at night up at his office, and one of the options was that we could make it look as if there was a burglary of some sort up at his office. And that he got shot in some type of robbery or something up at his office. Denise didn't like that idea.

23:41 I didn't like that idea, and Denise didn't like that idea, but primarily because there would be an investigation if something like that occurred. So another idea, We all used to go out on boats a lot, and Mike had a boat. And another option was that the four of us would go out on a boat onto the golf, Me and Kathy and Denise and Mike and uh, we go out in a boat on the golf and basically that Kathy and Mike would be pushed over board, and that Denise and I would find a booie way offshore that we could uh hold on to and either let the boat sink or let the boat take off on its own or whatever, and make it look like we had an accident on the water and that Denise and I had survived the accident.

24:41 Obviously, that's why didn't happen. Correct At some point did the discussion turn to strictly Mike being the one that dies. I had no desire whatsoever for anything to happen to Cat. I didn't really emphasize that with Denise because it was not good for me to express affection or you know, care about what happened to Kathy with Denise, but silently to myself. I was never going to allow anything to happen to my son's mom. So another scenario that we came up with was Mike and I going on a hunting trip together, uh and there being an accident where both he and I ended up in the water and uh, he drowned and I did not. Denise liked this idea because it I don't know how to word it exactly, but she felt better, I guess, about herself, or we could feel bad better about ourselves if there was a chance that he could make it out of it, you know.

26:05 I mean, I think there was even talk about, you know, well, it'll be up to God what happens and not us. It won't be a murder, It'll be, you know, an accident. It's kind of screwed up thinking, but that was a scenario that she could live with. I guess it would be fair to say that having the attention of being a widow was far better in her mind than being a divorcee. Yes, sir, better to be a rich widow than a poor divorcee and her her biggest concern with the divorce was she didn't want to share custody of Annesley with with Mike. She was not going to have Annsley going back and forth to two different houses. She wasn't going to give that up.

27:03 The droughting scenario, did you take any further steps to make that happen? Like, what do you mean taking any steps to me that happened? Like what happened? Yes, sir. So there was a limited time that we could make that scenario occur because it had to be during the duck season. There's only certain days that you can actually go hunting on duck in duck season, and it had to be at a place where, in my opinion, it would have been successful, which kind of ruled out all of the local lakes around Tallahassee because the lakes around Tallahassee are mostly shallow lakes.

27:55 Seminole is a lot deeper. Me out of the mantap questions we talked about the life insurance policies and the five hundred dollars lapsing to that also factor in the Aguilliam. Yes, sir, there were a lot of things that were kind of pressuring us for this to happen when it did. One was Mike had intended for that policy, the five hundred thousand dollars policy, to lapse. He was not intended to continue it, and so behind his back, Denise paid one more I can't remember if it was quarterly or semiannual premium, but we kept it going one more premium period, and we knew we weren't going to be able to keep it going perpetually, that he would eventually see this money. Hey, he's going out of the checking account for that policy that I didn't want anymore. So there was that he was becoming a couple of things. He was getting angrier and angrier about the fact that she wasn't having sex with him. He and I took a trip in November out to Arkansas together, so we spent twenty hours in the car together, and I heard a lot about how unhappy he was, you know, with Denise, and uh, he was not happy with not having not having sex. Of

29:25 course I was. I didn't want him having sex with her. H she didn't want to have sex with him. But so he even talked about moving away. He talked about moving out west, He talked about all kind of you know things, But he was becoming very unhappy, and he was also becoming suspicious. He raised his suspicions with me, not about me, but about Denise on that trip to Arkansas, that he thought something was going on with her. He he thought she was using drugs. He thought he had seen money disappearing. She'd been taking cash withdrawals out of the ATM, which I knew was for travel for us when we would go out of town, but he he kind of thought it might be for drugs or something.

30:17 I think he even approached Denise's mom about it at some point, asking her about it. But so also, their anniversary was coming up in December and the sixteenth or the seventeenth, I believe, sixteenth, I believe it was, and he planned for them to go to Apple at Chicola and stay at the Gibson Inn over there, and I think made it pretty clear that he was ready. You know, Denise didn't have sex with him while the while she was praying and after Hansley was born, you know, to my knowledge at all, unless she lied to me about it, which she could have. But you know, based on what Mike said, he kind of confirmed that and We checked up on each other a lot. Denise would check up to see if I was having sex with Kathy, and I would check up on her to see if she was having sex with Mike, because we, you know, we consider ourselves a couple together. And uh, anyway, so I think Mike made it pretty clear that this anniversary trip, it was going to be expected that this was, you know, going to be their starting over date, that it had been long enough since Annily had been born that it was time for them to start having sex again. I think he was kind of putting some pressure on Denise about that, and she did not want to go on

31:49 that trip, did not want that trip to happen. So it was a plan made. I'll take steps at kil Mike. Yes, sir, So you know we decided that that was the plan that we were going to go with. Well, let me ask you a question. You earlier talked about timing the essence because of the duck season. Why is it important for the duck season aspect. Of this, Well, because that was the plan, was he and I to be on a duck hunting trip together and to go to Lake Seminole. So duck season only lasted from Thanksgiving until the end of January. I may have even been shorter back in those days, but there was a short timeframe that that the season was in, and then within that season, uh, you know, we couldn't necessarily go every single day. You had to In some places you can only hunt on Wednesdays and on the weekend Saturday Sundays. But so we knew our window of opportunity was was closing, basically, so it was decided that that was the plan and we were going to go with and we there were several things involved. Denise really didn't have to do a whole lot other than come up with an alibi for herself and make sure that Mike went. I had to had to do you know more, obviously.

33:26 But it was decided that, uh, Mike and I would go on this trip. I had to, you know, I wanted to make sure he was going to show up. So, uh, you know, there was a week prior that that this was planned and that it that it didn't occur before the actual time that it did occur. Let's talk about that prior supposed to occur. Yes, sir, So a week prior we had it set up that this was going to be the date that that the trip was going to occur. So Mike and I planned uh to go, you know, on the trip.

34:07 And then late the night before, I believe it was before midnight, and I believe Mike was at his office and he called me and he said, I can't go. Denise has called me. She doesn't want me to go uh on the trip. And I was very surprised, uh, shocked kind of and UH. I was like, okay, and because we had you know, mail, this plan for this to happen. And so I can't remember when I called Denise. I think I called her immediately after I hung up with with Mike, uh, just to see, you know what, what what is going on? I mean, because this isn't something you need to be wishy washy about.

34:59 Uh. And I can't I can't remember if I talked to her that night or if it was the next day, but we talked very shortly afterward. And basically it was just a cold feet kind of thing and and she, you know, got cold feet at the last minute. So we went was gonna happen. It wasn't that the plan was off, but we we talked about it, and we we had several you know more conversations that you know, Look, this is either we're going to go forward with us or we're not. I mean, we're either going to be together or not. You know, like I said that the policy is ending. You got that anniversary trip coming up next weekend. You know Duxy's is going to be ending soon. Do you want this to happen or not? You know, I don't want to set these plans up if this isn't something you know, this isn't something you need to be wishy washy about.

36:05 I guess basically, so, at some point during the next week, it was decided again that yes, this was what we were going to do. You're talking about you're telling her, can't be wishy washy. Times are ending, we have a certain time frame, we have to do this. And then it almost sounds like you were pressuring her that whatever pressuring her. I don't think it was pressuring her as much as stating the facts of this is this is the reality of the situation. If you want this to happen, this is the best time for her to happen. I was not happy. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I was not happy about the fact that we have made these plans and I had committed that this was what was going to happen, and then at the last second she backed out.

37:02 I didn't understand that, and I wasn't real happy about that. But we all those issues that you just talked about, things that you previously discussed with her, Yes, time frames and everything like that. Right, so you call her out and you tell her all these things to not be wishy washy. Were there other communications where she was talking to you about putting in plans back in place? Right? Yeah, Well we met up eventually, and probably met up several times that week. At that point, we were meeting you know, a lot, and so we met I'm sorry. Were talked about I met up? Am I going out to eat? Or what are you talking about?

37:43 No, the same as we always did, meeting during the work day, primarily during lunches that sort of thing. So we have about sexual relations. Well, we didn't always have had sex every time, but during that week, the primary reason we were meeting was to discuss what are we going to do here? You know, what, what's going to happen here? So we we met up during that week and and talked about it, and uh came to the conclusion again, and I remember where it was. It was at Road and Cove at the boat ramp at Roden Cove on Lake Jackson off of Meridian Road, at the end of Roading Cove Road. But we decided that that this is what we're going to do. We're not going to back out at the last minute. And and in a six sort of way, you know, it was kind of like, you know, well, if God wants this to happen, this is what's going to happen. Because the plan again was that it was going to be an accident, and you know there would be a chance that he could get out of it.

38:52 You see, he met up. Why meet up rather than phone calls or something like that. Reason, well, that's not necessarily something you really want to talk about on the phone. We weren't really that concerned or paranoid about that sort of thing at that point. But we just met up routinely because we wanted to meet each other, because we wanted to see each other and beat together. All Right, So the time you meet up at the code and make a decision, So what's supposed to happen. So it's the same plan, it's it's the same night, just a week later, and from what I remember about that night before Mike, Mike had volunteered to ring the bell for the Salvation Army like a Walmart, and Kathy and I had planned down going out to a concert at Floyd's, and I wanted us all to go out, as I remember it, but that didn't end up happening for whatever reason. I don't know if they couldn't get a babysitter or why they didn't end up going out with us, but Kathy and I did end up going out to that concert. Part of the plan was that

40:27 I wanted Kathy to to basically be as drunk as possible the night before, because I wanted her to sleep late in late the next morning my my a, my alibi. The plan was that all this would occur very early in the morning, and I would have time enough to get back and meet my father in law up near it and Thomasville Road to actually go on a hunting trip with him. So that was going to be my cover, going to be my alibi. Her alibi was going to be that she was at home with Annesley, and the plan was when Mike didn't come back home that eventually she was going to start calling her sisters and her dad from her house phone so that she could establish that she was at the house. Proved that she was at the house with Annesley.

41:22 Okay, so what was planning to make this happen? What happened? So Kathy and I went out and went to the concert, got home late. She did have a lot to drink. There was discussion between me and Denise, and I can't remember if I actually did this or not, or if I did it the week prior or I just really can't remember, but I remember Denise and I talking about there was some medication, because medication that Kathy had, and we talked about giving her a little bit of that medication that would cause her to sleep really heavy and make sure that she slept really good through all of it, because I didn't want her to wake up and realize how early. I didn't want her to know how early I was leaving the next morning. So the plan with Mike was that I would meet him at a gas station on Thomasvield Road up near the overpath, well the overpass I don't think was there at that point, but meet him up at a gas station up near the McDonald's up there and I met him there. I had told him that we were going to go to a

42:52 secret special spot to go honting, and that he needed to bring his waiters. I had to make sure that he brought his waiters, because the belief was there was kind of like a there's still it is probably like a duck hunter's myth that if you follow overboard with your waiters, you're going to sink really quick and drown. So I had to make sure that he brought his waiters. And so I told him about this you know, great spot that we were going to go, and he needed to bring his waiters. So I met him at the gas station and I told him when he drove up, I was real paranoid about phones and him calling me and there being a record of him calling me. So I told him that my battery was dead on my phone, that there was no reason for him to call me as we were driving over to the lake, because normally we would have called and talked to each other on the phone or even ridden together. I don't even remember how or why I told him that I needed to use my vehicle instead of just going in his. But for somehow I came up with some reason to do that.

44:04 You said that you called him and tried to get him and make sure he was going to get the waiters. When did you call him and talked about that? I don't remember specifically. We talked several times, you know, Mike and I talked every day ourselves, and so you know, we talked about hunting all the time, and we talked about this trip several times prior to it happening. Okay, So I followed him over to the lake. He had his boat behind his Bronco and I followed him in my white suburban lake seminole, which is about fifty minutes away, and I had told him what landing we needed to go to, and so we pulled into the landing and uh launched the boat and uh, I, I said something.

45:11 I had to make sure that he had the waiters on. So I said something about we're running low on time or or you know, we're going to be really pushed. And it was so important because I believed and we believed that that if you fell overboard with the waiters on, that you would sink pretty quickly. So I told him something like, we're you know, we're running late. You know, we need to go ahead and put our waiters on, you know, here and now before we get in and go. And so we both did that, and because I knew where we were going hunting, I was in the back of the boat driving and he was in the front.

45:59 Uh So, what kind of photo were talking? My lock A large airboat. It was a what's called a janou is basically a canoe that has a flat, flat back that you can put a motor, a small motor on the back of it. I'm familiar with canoes. Canoes can be a little tipsy. This boat, this boat was, Yes, basically like canoes are pretty pretty tippy. Okay, So you had you put a level of water and you're heading out. When you're driving, Yes, sir, I was driving, and I know I was very concerned about the time. Everything had taken longer than what I had anticipated, and I had to be back in town early enough in time to meet my father in law for for my alibi trip to occur. And so we we headed out and there was a deep area maybe a couple of hundred yards from the landing that we put in at. And we got to that area that I knew was a deep area, and I don't remember exactly how I got him to stand up, But I don't know if I pretended something was wrong with the motor or the weight and the boat was off or something. But I basically stopped the boat and got him to stand up, and when he did, I pushed him into the water.

47:31 What up and next? So he was in the water and he was like struggling, and the motor of the boat was still running, and I pulled off just a little bit to get kind of away from him so that he couldn't reach back into the boat. And I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know if he was trying to swim or I didn't know what was going on. But what I came to find out or eventually realized, was he was taking the waiters and the jacket off, and he he got those off. And I think I forgot to tell you about this part before, but I remember now that that area of the lake had a lot of snags, a lot of dead trees that come up out of the water, and there's a lot of stumps that come up out of the water. And he swam over to one of those stumps and held on to it, and he was paying and I was panicking, and none of

49:04 this was like going well. I thought it was going to go and I didn't I didn't know what to do. But mh, he was he started to yell, and I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't know how to get out of that situation. And so I had my gun in the boat, and uh so I loaded my gun and I just I made one or two circles around, yeah, and I ended up circling closer towards him, and he was in the water, and as I passed by, I shot him.

50:21 Where did you shoot him? The head? So when I shot him, it was dark and there was a bright flash when that happened, and I didn't want to see what happened, so like I closed my eyes when the instant of that flash happened.

51:02 And the boat was moving as this happened. And so I turned back around and came back to where he was and got to the stump, and I knew I couldn't I couldn't leave him there being shot, So I was gonna have to do something to cover this up. And I reached down and he wasn't far under the water, but like my whole arm got wet and I remember wondering, like, how am I gonna explain that my arm is soaking wet?

51:44 And I was afraid I was gonna have to jump into the water. But I reached down and I grabbed a hold of him, and I was closer because of where I had driven the boat. I was closer to another landing, just a little dirt landing that was further down the shoreline, and so I decided to motor the boat and pull him over to that landing over there. So I drug him in the water over to that dirt ramp and left the boat, left him, ran back down to where our trucks were parked, got my truck, came back to where he was, backed my truck to the edge of the water and let the tailgate down and ended up putting him in the back of my suburban, and I pushed the boat back out into the water to make it looked like, you know, his boat was out there and he had drowned or disappear or what.

53:05 You know. I didn't give a lot of thought as to what was going to happen after that. I was just picked as to getting out of that area and covering this up. So I realized it was probably getting too late at this point to meet up with my father in law, but I was still going to try, and I sped. Let me stop you for a moment. He said that you were able to loaded him into your suburban? Yes, sir, How big was Mike? He was a little bit bigger than me. He was a little heavier than me. We were pretty close in size, but he was a little bit bigger than me. How much do you wish.

53:47 Back then? Probably one seventy one seventy something like that. How were you able to get a man that's under twenty five pounds dead weight into the fact year by yourself? It was not easy, It was not pretty. But I had to make it happen. I mean, I had no choice. And I can't even explain, like how your body feels in that kind of a situation, don't. I don't unless somebody's been to war or something, I don't. I don't even know how to explain. But like you have so much adrenaline pumping through your body, you're just it's just crazy.

54:34 But you know, it wasn't pretty, And I never I made a purposeful decision to never view him, to look at look at him, but uh, I backed the truck down and there was an angle to the ramp, so the back of my truck was angled down toward the water, and I backed it all the way down to the edge of the water. So it wasn't there was no distance involved. But yes, he was very heavy and it was not easy to do that, but I had no choice. Said, you were concerned about meeting up with your father in law at that point. What happened next?

55:18 I sped back toward Tallahassee, and as I was driving there, I was realizing I'm not going to make it in time. I didn't want to call him because I didn't want to turn my phone on. I didn't want there to be any record of where my phone was at, so I left my phone off. And by the time I got back to Tallahassee, you know, I looked through the parking lot. We were going to meet at Carriagegate parking lot. I looked through the parking lot, didn't see his vehicle there, and I decided the best thing for me to do was to go back to my house and pretend that I had overslept, and then I could also make a phone call from my house to my father in law, which would kind of prove that I overslept and I was at my house, and I wanted there to be a record of that. I actually when when I was driving on Thomasville Road, I actually came up to a stop light and there was a state trooper across from me, and I can remember just being freaked out about it, but I mean, I didn't have any choice, so and that's what I decided to do. So I drove home, UH, pulled up into my driveway and was really really hoping that Kathy was still asleep. I went into the house

56:52 as quietly as I could. She was still asleep. I crawled back into the bed and had a phone there on the floor. I can remember dialing my father in law and telling him apologizing, I'm so sorry I overslept, and I didn't want to wake Kathy up, obviously because I had what was in the driveway, but I wanted her to know I was there, so I I I can't remember what I said to her, but I think I halfway woke her up and said I'm gonna go out with the dogs or trained dogs. I trained dogs at the time. It was gone for hours at a time from the house doing stuff like that. But I don't remember exactly what I told her, but I basically I wanted her to I wanted her to know that I was there, to confirm that I was there, but not wake up and start asking me any questions about what happened, Why did you ever sleep, you know, anything like that. So I did that, and then I went back out to the driveway to leave. When I went out to the driveway, my driveway was angled, and I was walking behind my truck and I saw out of the back tailgate blood was coming out of the back of my tailgate and dripping onto the driveway, and that

58:28 freaked me out. So I rinsed that off and was trying to figure out. I'd been thinking on the way from Lake Seminole back to Tallahassee what was I going to do with him? And I don't know when I decided, but you know, ultimately I decided it had to be close, and it had to be quick, and it had to be obviously a location that you know, he wouldn't be found. And I decided on an isolated dirt road boat ramp down at Carl Lake. But I had no tools, and at that point Carl Lake was very low. Parts of it were dry, and like the other lakes, there were areas in the lake that had puddles of water or mud.

59:26 And my thinking was, if I got him there, I could take him out to one of those water holes or mud holes and put him in one of those and that would be a safe place that he wouldn't be found. But I had no I had nothing to do this with. So I had to go to a store. And I'm ninety percent sure the store that I ended up at was Walmart. Yeah, And I bought a shovel, I bought a tart, and I bought weights, like weights that you lift weights with, because I was thinking that I would use the weights to weigh his body down in the water or a mud hole or whatever. While I was in that store, I actually ran into a friend of ours, Mike Phillips, and uh, I actually totally forgot about running into him or having any conversation with him until I ran into him later during the search for Mike Williams at the lake, and he said, yeah, I remember seeing you that day. You were you were in a panic, you were in you were in a hurry, and he was thinking I was in a hurry to go search for Mike. But I was actually in a hurry because I was trying to bury Mike. But uh, anyways,

1:01:00 I bought those things at the Walmart and drove to car Lake down to the end of the road, turned my truck around backwards, back down to the landing, and you know, my thinking was, I was going to drag him way out until lake. And so I got the tarp and put it on the ground behind my truck, pulled Mike out, put him on that tarp, kind of wrapped him up. And as I pulled him, instantly I knew there was no way I was going to be able to move him any distance at all, that he was just too heavy and that wasn't going to happen.

1:01:50 So I had to find somewhere close. And it was a really grown up area. And like I said, the lake was almost dry, so the water was down, and I I decided to to put him down, uh in the in the lake bed itself, kind of on the edge of the lake, so that eventually when the water came back up, that area would be underwater and it was hidden from the road somewhat. And uh so I pulled him down to that area and started digging a hole, and Uh, it was. It was hard.

1:02:44 I was. I was exhausted. I was getting bitten by ants all over me. I remember being scared that I was gonna have to explain why I had ant bites all over me because there was ants where I was digging. But Tom actually, while I was doing this, I heard a vehicle coming down the road, and so I kind of I had there were bushes there anyway, but I kind of made sure everything was flat and you couldn't see it from the road, and I ran back up to my truck and a guy drove up. He was coming down there to go hunting out on the lake itself, and he and I made small talk, chit chat. I was obviously very paranoid, and I got the impression. I can't remember why now, but at the time I got the impression that he might have been like a law enforcement type guy, maybe like a game warden or something like that. But he talked about he was going deer hunting out on the lake bed, and so I kind of hung out at my truck and waited for him to get several hundred yards away before I went back to uh digging so eventually I got a hole big enough and I put him there and covered him up. Yeah,

1:04:22 made sure it, you know, didn't look suspicious as as well as I could. But now I still had a problem because my truck had blood on the back of it, and it was getting later and later in the day, and I knew at some point people were gonna start calling me. There was a family Christmas with my wife's family up in kro that we were supposed to be going to that afternoon or that night. You know, I was just running out of time, and uh so I uh put the truck, put the shovel in the back of the truck, and I knew I had to clean my truck up. And I think at that point I can't remember the order. I can't remember. I went two different places. I went two different places to clean up my truck. One of them was I went to my parents' house and parked. They have a big lot, and I parked toward the back of it, and uh tried to use a hose to clean out the truck and

1:05:56 it it. I think I went there first because it was closer to where I was, but it wasn't working very well, and I realized I needed to have like a pressure washer, and so I left there and drove around trying to find a car wash that had a pressure washer, and there were none on my side of town. So I ended up at Tharpe Street in Old Bainbridge. There was a car wash there that I had pressure washers, and I cleaned out the back as best as I could there. And after that, let's.

1:06:42 Stop for a second. Yes, sir, married him at the car Lake. At some point you, for lack of better term, go about your business, go to Caro, meet Kathy and everybody in the family. Right after I after I cleaned up. I'm sorry you did you go up to Caro meet Cathy in the family. Yes, at some point where you contacted about Mike being gone missing? Right? My recollection is that my dad called me and said Mike's missing.

1:07:24 Whenever that happened? Would you do? And but let me back up. When was that? I remember it being on the drive home from being up at Cairo for the Christmas party. So is this the same Saturday? Yes, sir okay, in the evening hours, Yes, sir okay, what would you do? You know? When my dad called I kind of said, well, that's Mike, because Mike was known to be laid and kind of irresponsible at times going out on honting or fishing trips or whatever. But you know, I said, I'll I'll get back there and we'll, you know, go go look for him. And uh so got back to town, met up with my dad, and went with him over to Lake Seminole that night next day that immediately when I got back to town, there were a few people over there with boats, mainly friends, uh and family, and those of us with boats started going out where his truck was. No, we didn't put in where his truck was.

1:08:42 We put it in. There was a concrete landing before that, which was a nicer landing that you weren't going to get stuck at, and uh we we. My dad and I went out on the lake and searched for Mike. He was searching and I was just lying. My understanding. The weather front came through and it rained during that evening. There was a storm that came through that night. I think we got off the lake before uh that happened. But you know, my dad wanted to look. I think we were the last ones on the lake, and my dad didn't want to give him. My dad loved Mike.

1:09:49 That would be a good time. I take ten minutes. H Did you find anything that evening, Yes. Sir, I didn't really. I mean, I knew where Mike's boat was, and I didn't really want to be the one that found it. I would rather somebody else had found it. But my dad was just really determined, you know.

1:10:41 He he took us to a spot. I knew he was going to be there, but he took us to a spot and sure enough, there was Mike's boat. So we found his boat, and I think we just left it. We didn't touch it. We left it where it was and went back in and told the whoever the law enforcement people were there at the time. But shortly thereafter a pretty bad storm, rainstorm, and I think cold front came through that night. And did you go back to the lake the next day? M hmm, I'm sure. I'm sure I did. The next two months for kind of a blur for me, but yes, I spent lots of time at the lake during the search because I kind of wanted to monitor what was going on. I wanted to put up a good, you know, front, to look like I was out there looking like everybody else, but I was. I was out there a lot.

1:11:55 At some point A half is now on the lake. Is that not a hat? Yeah? Yes, sir. Were you the one that found that hat? I was not the one that found it. I was the one that put it in the water during one of my searches on the lake. I was well. Denise and I were getting concerned that nothing else was being found out there, and I I was hoping that his waiters and jacket and all would be found to kind of confirm that that he had drowned there. And I wanted to keep the searchers in that particular area. So I took a hat that was similar to a hat that Mike used, which was real distinctive. It had a weird looking bill on it and stuff, and when I was out there with another friend of mine, I threw it in the water in that area because I wanted to keep the people in that area, because I wanted the waiters and the jacket to be found to confirm that that's where Mike was and where he went into the water.

1:13:07 What was that hat? Eventually found it was and you were asked to identify it. Yes, sir, you told law enforcement it was Mike. Yes, sir, you brought up a point about you and Denise had concerns. All right, we're talking at that point following Mike's murder on the sixteen. What communication did you have with Denise? I can't remember the first time that we talked. We had pre arranged that obviously our communication needed to be minimal, both by phone and in person. Obviously we weren't going to be meeting up in parking lots and having sex and doing all that was normal for us to be doing.

1:13:54 So we had decided that it's just too close to me and. Pushed back a little bit. It's a little louder now. Used to me it. Was like a concert. But so we had we had decided ahead of time that we really needed to minimize our contact. I got a lot of information about Denise and what was going on with Denise through Kathy, who was going over to her house and seeing her and talking to her. Denise kind of sequestered herself up to her bedroom and didn't want to be around a lot of people, uh during that time, which was smart of her to do and uh, And so I got a lot of information from Kathy. But eventually you know, she and I talked, and there never was a conversation that was like, well, did it all go according to plan?

1:14:46 Or you know we First of all, I didn't want to talk about that because that was not the plan. What happened with Mike was not the plan that Denise and I had come up with, and. I I want to make it clear, the plan didn't play out the way you wanted to, but it certainly was it the plan that you and Denisa discussed actually have them. The plan was for his death to occur, but it was not for it to occur in the way that it did. I mean, the plan was for him to fall in the water and for him to have a chance to survive it. But obviously that's not what happened. And I didn't want to tell Denis that, So we never had a conversation that was like, uh, did it all do according to plan? But it was quite obvious from the circumstances that Mike was gone, and you know, she assumed that what we talked about, the plan that we had made, She assumed that that was what had happened.

1:15:44 It wasn't until years later that I tried to and somewhat told her that that's not what ended up happening. Okay, So at some point you had heard start talking again despite the distance. Is when was that. The the first time I'd be guessing. I mean, I would say a few days before we talked. I'm sure the first time we talked was just on the phone. It was it was a little while before I saw her in person, because I remember being kind of nervous and and uh, I just knew it would be weird to see her because of what we had done. I just knew it would be weird to see her after that, kind of to face each other after that. But but you know, as the search went on, and you know, long term, this thing has got back to normal, we just kind of settled back into the same routines. But the next thing, obviously, that we had to deal with was the fact that his body wasn't being found. And so the concern between she and I then became, well, if his body's not found, what's gonna happen with the life insurance?

1:16:58 Okay, there was a competation here and with her, Yes, and what is she saying, what is your concern? Well that if his body's not found, you know what's going to happen. Is she going to get the money or not? Oh, did you and or her take any steps to facilitate that. To facilitate her getting the money. I was not in a hurry to push that issue. I felt like we needed to kind of lay low on that and not appear to be, you know, the eager widow ready to cash in or life insurance also she was getting at that time, insurance companies were paying a ridiculous amount I think eight percent they were required to pay on death benefit proceeds. So she was earning eight percent as long as the money sat there, which you couldn't get that outside in a bank or anything like that. So I knew the longer at drug out, the better it was going to be. We talked about that again. It was actually again it was actually my dad because he was concerned about Denise. He wanted her to get her money so she could pay her bills. And you know, he pushed, he pushed it through the hoops that needed to happen for her to end up getting the money quickly as she could. But what we came to learn, what he

1:18:30 came to learn, what we all came to learn, was she was going to have to get a death certificate issued by a judge through a court. So probably my dad or me hoped her up with an attorney, Kurt Hunter, and she talked with Kurt about what needed to be done, and I think basically she had to file a petition with a court stating everything that happened, talking about what a wonderful marriage she had with Mike. There was no reason for him to run off on her. I can't remember what all had to go on the petition, but we talked about that ahead of time, and she ended up following a petition and it was granted and she was issued a death certificate, so she was able to get the money.

1:19:20 Were there any conversations about what. Had happened about what had happened specifically with Mike? Yes, no, yea. At some point law enforcement takes other looks in the cases and interviews people. Did y'all have any conversations about that? Well, this was years later, and a lot transpired in between Mike's death and law enforcement getting involved. I think it was three years later maybe, But the first, the first thing that happened with me was I just got a call, uh from a deputy. I don't remember if it was a Jackson County sheriff officer or an investigator with FDL. But I got a call from somebody and they wanted to talk to me about Mike Williams in the case. And I agreed, and I went into fd L E h On Reckins Roy there and interviewed with two gentlemen there, and it became quite clear to me during that interview that they were suspicious of what happened, and not only that, they were suspicious of me and Denise.

1:20:39 And I think even after I left that interview, I called her immediately and was freaking out, you know that that this was going on, and uh. Right there, so you got and he does. Then you mentioned that there were things, a lot of things that happened prior to that, and this is a approssimately two thousand and three, two thousand and four or something like that. Yeah, sir, right, So. Prior to that occurring, had you and Denise talked about a possibility of what you would do if law enforcement started investigating this? Yeah, I mean we basically weren't going to say anything. We had the way that we the word that we put on it was we had an agreement that she would never say anything about me and I would never say anything about her, because we knew or we felt like that as long as neither one of us talked that, nobody would ever, you know, find out what happened. So we we called it our agreement basically, and and we were probably pretty arrogantly confident in that agreement.

1:21:52 I guess, did you and her take any steps to ensure the fact that wire cat or having a conversation with her code words, co signals, things like that. We we didn't get that way until after law enforcement started looking into things. The other thing that that made us really paranoid was Denise. At first, Denise was allowing Cheryl, Mike's mom Uh to see Annsley and taken Annsley, Mike, and Denise's daughter Hansley, out to cheryl grandma Cheryl's house.

1:22:37 And on one of those trips out to Cheryl's house, Denise found a notebook that Cheryl had and she had written her suspicions about Denise and me and what had happened with Mike, and and when Cheryl was in another room or something, Denise read that and came back and told me what she had read, and really freaked out about it, and at that point didn't want UH Cheryl to didn't want any contact with Cheryl really. But between that and law enforcement getting involved, we became very paranoid about UH being monitored. So we agreed and talked about we weren't going to talk about anything on the phones anymore when we were worried about our cars being bugged, our houses being bugged. We had hand signals that we would use if we needed to talk about something related to Mike or law enforcement. One of them was a see for Cheryl and then the other one was this like jail bars. So when we did that, we knew that one of the other of us had something to talk about. And you would usually go there was a park next to There is a park next to Denise's house along Mixed Hookie Road. We would go out to

1:24:09 that park and go way out in a field on a bench, and we would leave our cars in the vehicle, wouldn't take them. We would leave our phones in the vehicle, make sure we didn't have a phone on us. We were we were very concerned that we were being watched or monitored by law enforcement. Now backing up again, prior to the interview, You're still married two thousand to Kathy and you start your relations back with Denise. At some point, did your marriage with Kathy start falling Park, Yes. Sir, I mean it had started. It had started, you know, when Denise and I started our family in ninety seven.

1:24:54 But after after Mike was gone, actually, Kathy and I spent even more time with Denise, the three of us, doing a lot of things just because Denise and I wanted to be together, and and yeah, things just got worse and worse. I mean, Kathy, you know, told me later, you know that after Mike was gone, it was like there was no reason for me and Denise to be apart from each other. She made comments like that, but I think she was suspicious of us, you know, all along. But I never admitted to Kathy that Denise and I were having an affair, obviously, and that was just kind of basically the next step in the plan. But it couldn't be right off because that would look bad. So Kathy and I ended up staying together. I think our divorce wasn't finalized until two thousand and four.

1:25:58 I believe at some point did you and Kathy separate prior to the Warce yes, sir. At some point, was there a situation where you backtracked essentially and started and made a pleasure to try and get back with Kathy and not go over it. Yes, sir, there, what was that about. There was a lot that led up to that. As as you said, we were separated, So Kathy and I were separated. I had a house to myself. There was the incident that you talked to that we talked about earlier with Angela Stafford, where Denise walked in on Angela and I in my bedroom.

1:26:52 After that happened, Denise was furious and she you know, we had a briefcase full of me mentos, cards, notes, letters, pictures, videos, all sorts of things. She left my house and went to her house and burned it all. She was very angry with me. I didn't know it at the time, but she actually was having sex with a guy that she worked with at work, and I think when she caught me with it, I'm sorry, yes, sir. And so when she caught me with Angelou, I think she decided at that point, well, I'm gonna drop Brian and pursue a relationship with mister Bunker, and so things just basically like went to hell with me and Denise, And long story short, I mean, I just realized what the disaster of my life was at that point. And Denny and I had well, we hadn't broken up. She had basically dumped me for Chuck, and I found myself at church one day on July fourth, heard a sermon about freedom.

1:28:16 You know, I felt like I was a slave to all that I had been living for. You know, in my relationship with Denise and I had a I guess you would call it a spiritual awakening or conversion, however you want to tournament. Eventually, the relationship with Denise and mister Bunker went haywire in South They had their legal issues with each other. Was there's an incident between you and mister Buker. That happened prior to me going to church that day? But yes, sir, uh. The way that I found out about and Chuck was she left town with him. I went up to Atlanta on a trip trip together and I found out from one of her sisters that they were in Atlanta, and I was not happy. I was angry, and I wanted to confront her, you know, because we had been through a lot, done a lot for each other.

1:29:29 I mean, I gave up half of my son's life to be with her, you know, killed her husband. Uh uh, and we've done a lot to be together, and then for her to turn around and uh go uh you know, sleep with Chuck didn't make me happy. So I found out they were in Buckhead in Atlanta, and I drove there to confront them, confront her. I didn't really care about him so much, but I ended up finding I ended up sitting in a lobby in a hotel and they came struggling by uh together, and you know, I confronted them, and we ended up going outside and having a long argument conversation uh out next to the street in Buckhead. She I wanted Chuck gone. I didn't want to deal with Chuck, So my main focus was you need to get rid of Chuck. She uh got rid of him, got him to leave us alone, and she and I spend the night together in the hotel. And I didn't know it at the time, but she was just kind of placating me when Uck was I think

1:31:01 got a room down the hallway in the hotel. I didn't really leave, but so we had that incident and Denise told me later that the way that she got rid of Chuck was m She told him that if he didn't leave it, I could have her turned in for insurance fraud, which I thought was just it blew me mourning that she told him that. I couldn't believe that she admitted that to another party. Did you hear say that? Or that just what she told me?

1:31:41 She told me this later and we argued about it later. So the incident with Chuck happened, and I drove back to Tallahassee, and I was just done. I was just spit. And that's what kind of led me to kind of I guess I thought at the time was rock bottom. I didn't know I had so many rock bottoms ahead of me. But at that point I ended up in church and and uh kind of had a spiritual reawakening. And over the next few months, I decided that I wanted to try to reconcile with Kathy. I still loved Denise.

1:32:30 I still wanted to be with Denise. Eventually, Denise and Chuck's relationship imploded and they had their you know, legal issues and whatnot, and uh so they broke up. My dad actually helped Denise. Uh through all of that. So they break up. You try to get back with Kathy. They broke up, and in Denise and I Denise kind of had her own spiritual awakening and this, I know this sounds all screwy, but.

1:33:10 We wanted to be together still. But we both agreed that the right thing for me to do was to try to get with Kathy. And if Kathy decided that wasn't gonna happen, then we were free to be together. And so, yes, I tried to reconcile with Kathy. Did that work out? Not well? Eventually you and Kathy end up in. A divorce, Yes, sir, we ended up getting divorced, and so we're free to be together. Mike, when was the I'm this is terror, but I don't remember when it was finalized. We had a long separation. I don't remember when the divorce itself was finalized.

1:34:06 At some point, did you and Denise start becoming public with your dating? Yes, sir. After the divorce was finalized and we decided enough time had passed from Mike's death, we we decided it was okay for us to gradually start dating. And uh, you know, we talked about it with a lot of people. There were some people that took it well. Uh, there were some people like her family and her dad who took it horribly. But we did start dating. Eventually you got married. And then we got married in two thousand and five.

1:34:50 We were still concerned about the law enforcement side of it, but as time passed and nothing happened, we became less and less concerned about it. You say that you've still concerned a job. Communications between each other on well what will you do with law forcement? Every interview, right, you know, things would come up in the media. We would see things online or in the news. Cheryl, you know, never give up and kept pushing things. And so from time to time that issue would be raised.

1:35:32 And I always wanted to talk about things a lot more than Denista and East did not like to talk about anything related to that usually. But we you know, we would typically not talk in the house. We would typically talk you know, out at Lake LA or a public place or whatever where we felt like we weren't being monitored. Even at that point, And. Did y'all have an agreement to pat the agreement not to talk to law enforcement? Yes, I mean we promised each other that me and one of us would ever say anything, because we knew the only way that we felt like the only way to would get anything would be if one of us talked.

1:36:24 And I mean I was concerned about Denise, if she ever got under that pressure, whether she would hold up to it or not. You know, Kathy actually warned me. I think the first time I heard Kathy talk about it, she said, you know, Kathy was trying to get me to talk, but basically she said, you know, you can't trust Denis, and she'll throw you under the bus the first chance she gets. Would be fair to say that you made sure just to her, that being Denise, that you had not anybody yelped about this particular case, Yes, sir, And she made sure to you that she had not told anybody.

1:37:07 The only person I knew of was was mister Bonker. But you know, she didn't say that Mike was murdered or anything like that. She just supposed to right. Now. In twenty sixteen, you were there was the kidnapping arrest, yes, sir, And following that, you confess to the murder the Mike correct, Yes, sir, you read led law enforcement to his remains, yes, sir. The conversations with Denise, they leading up to the murder the day currently on County for the most part, Yes, sir.

1:37:48 The conversations with Denise following the murder where the agreement was never to talk to law enforcement that occurrently Ancunty, Florida, Yes, sir, whenever she set up or alibi to stay at home the phone calls that in the Unikan, Florida, Yes, sir, talk a lot about the niece Winchester or Williams formerly Winchester DC here in the courtroom today, Yes, sir, Can you please point or an indicating our book flow. There an article of clothing, the Peak sweaters, so. There it is. What a piece of shit this guy is, total betrayal of his friend in so many ways, and the fact that he got a deal on this it is absolutely sickening to me. But on the other side of that was he held all the cards, folks. Again, one of the rare times you will ever hear me say a plea deal sort of made sense to me.

1:38:47 It was really the only way they were going to find the remains for Mike's sweet mother to have that burial, and luck have they not made that deal. They had no freaking evidence of anything, and they couldn't have proved it in court, probably would have never found that body. But there's absolutely a part of me that is like, Man, fuck that guy and fuck that deal. Now, a couple of things that I found interesting in his testimony that you just heard. First, Denise was never told how Mike was killed, only that he was killed. And as much as I have to say it, that was a smart move on the part of both of them to agree, I guess not to tell her how it occurred, because it leaves her without any information on how Mike died, where his body was, etc. So if she's placed under a lot of detector test and she was asked if she knows anything about Mike's death, she can honestly say no and it would register her as telling the truth.

1:39:54 If they asked her if she knows where the body is, she could honestly say no and it would register as her telling the truth. As much as I hate to say it was a smart move, it really was a smart move to do that. Now. Also, what I think is likely in her twisted little mind is she could possibly compartmentalize better and walk around like nothing ever happened because she lacked those actual details. This woman's so crazy she could probably trick her mind in the same one. I don't know if he killed him, he may still be alive. And how about how Mike was opening up about not having sex with his wife to Brian Winchester on those hunting trips, as Brian testified to his frustration over that, and this asshole knew why it was because he was adding sex the whole time with her. Just makes you say wow. So now you know all the details of the murder. I'm not going to rehash those, there's no point hopefully listen to all of that. And you know exactly how all this went down.

1:41:04 But what happened to Denise. Jim? Did you see what happened in Texas today? Wait before you tell me that, let me tell you what happened in New York. It cannot be as crazy as the case I told you about yesterday in Louisiana. You know what, we should do a podcast about it, and with that we did. Crime War Weekly covers the crime news headlines that have dominated the week. We cover trending crimes from all over the country and even sprinkle in a few globally. Crime War Weekly is available now wherever you listen to your podcasts, simply by searching Crime War Weekly or clicking the link in the description of this podcast. Well, after a month long trial, in February of twenty nineteen, she was found guilty. She subsequently was sentenced to life in prison. Now, five months later, her daughter Ainsley was awarded all of her father's assets in a deal, and that enabled Denise to avoid insurance fraud charges. Now, part of that deal was that Ainsley could not use any of that money to cover legal fees for her mother. And you have to remember this time, Ainsley is nineteen years old. It took that long to solve this case. So her mother had raised her whole life. I'm sure she loved her mother,

1:42:36 and they were concerned if she gets all these assets from Mike Williams, she may use them to help with her mother's legal defense. But that was part of the deal. If you get the assets, you cannot do that. So that's it, right, She's convicted, life in prison. Story over. Well, y'all know me better than that. It's never that way with the stories that I bring you. So get this. The year or after Denise's conviction, she appeals it, which when you're sentenced to life. This always happens an appeal, is no surprise. Her attorney argued, there was no evidence she was involved in the commission of the murder, and you have to have that for it to be a first degree murdered conviction, which she was convicted of in addition to conspiracy. And in the shock of a century, the appeals court agreed with her attorney. They overturned the murder conviction in the first degree. Now, they did uphold the conspiracy charge, which, when I stepped back from my personal feelings on this case, conspiracy, she's one hundred percent guilty of All that means is that you conspired on this murder before or after, so you planned the murder.

1:43:52 But I would also argue she assisted in the commission of the murder because she knew the day that Brian was going to kill Mike, but she did nothing to stop it. She could have stopped Mike and said, no, don't go because Brian's gonna show up and he's gonna kill you. She didn't do that. To me, that makes her culpable in the actual murder, not just the planning of it. That's just my view. I'd love to hear your view on that. So this goes all the way to the Florida Supreme Court because obviously a lot of people in Florida were pissed when that first degree murder charge got overturned. That means no life in prison. So in April twenty twenty four, the Florida Supreme Court declined to hear the case from the state. Now essentially that means they agree with the appeals court. So the state lost.

1:44:48 So all told, here here's what both of them ended up with. Denise Williams got a thirty year sentence for the conspiracy to commit murder charge, making her seventy eight years old when she's released, and considering the facts of this case, I would say she would not be granted an early release, though time's gonna tell on that. Now. Brian Winchester, who actually killed this guy, with the sweet deal that he got, he's gonna be released at the age of sixty five. He's still gonna have some life left in him. What a wild case. And for those curious about Ainslie, Mike's only daughter, who sadly lost her dad at just eighteen months old. She was nineteen, as I said, when her mother was convicted.

1:45:38 She didn't let that stop her from being the woman her father would be proud of. She actually got her bachelor's in business from Florida State. She got a master's in mass communication from the University of Florida, and today she works for a public relations firm in the Tallahassee area. For the young ones listening, don't ever let anyone tell you your circumstances define you. This poor young lady had everything going against her in life, losing her father so early on, all the shit that surrounded that, the after effects of it, the marriage to her father's best friend, which I'm sure as a little girl even she thought was kind of fucked up. She managed to still make something of her life. So this young lady surpassed all the odds, in my opinion, and that is a rap of fatal fortune. I guess you could say subject number one, Mike Williams, I'll bring you another one real soon. Thank you so much for listening. Check out the Patreonpatreon dot com slash exposed podcast files. We put all kinds of stuff up there. There's a lot of benefits and it's really the main cusp for what supports this show. So we could really use your support on there. Please consider it.

1:47:01 It's like two dollars and fifty cents a week for that first tier and for that you get commercial free early releases and bonus episodes, so check that out. I just dropped a bonus episode just yesterday from this recording, and that was on Mindy McCready who had a tragic life. And only Patreon members get those bonus episodes, so please consider that. And until next time for exposed scandalous files of the elite, I'm your host, Jim Chapman. Much love,