July 28, 2025

Fatal Fortune: The Murder of Mike Williams Part 3

Fatal Fortune: The Murder of Mike Williams Part 3

*Part 3 of the Mike Williams Disappearance* In this brand new series hosted Jim Chapman, you are brought into some of the most infamous crimes committed where money was the motivating factor. Mike Williams seemingly had it all, a beautiful wife and...

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Season 1

*Part 3 of the Mike Williams Disappearance*

In this brand new series hosted Jim Chapman, you are brought into some of the most infamous crimes committed where money was the motivating factor.

Mike Williams seemingly had it all, a beautiful wife and child, a fledging career and a quarter of a million dollar salary in his early thirties when he vanished while duck hunting at Florida’s Lake Seminole. The subsequent search turned up nothing and only through the determination of his mother, would this case be solved eighteen years later and those responsible be brought to justice.

Timestamps:
01:52 Brian Winchester's Testimony
03:58 Friendship Dynamics Revealed
07:25 The Affair Begins
14:04 The First Signs of Deceit
18:00 Life Insurance Policies Discussed
19:03 Planning Mike's Demise
23:57 The Drowning Scenario
27:03 Steps Toward Execution
49:11 The Fatal Encounter
51:56 Cover-Up Begins
1:06:28 The Aftermath
1:14:21 Communication After the Murder
1:25:14 Struggles in the Aftermath
1:33:39 Moving On with Denise
1:44:52 Legal Outcomes and Sentences
1:46:28 Ainsley's Journey

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WEBVTT

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Hey, everyone, Welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite.

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I'm your host, Jim Chapman, and today I am wrapping

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up the Mike Williams story, which is a part of

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my Fatal Fortune series. Now, the last time that I

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left you, I brought you inside of Denise Williams trial,

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and I covered the testimonies of Mike Williams mother Sheryl Williams,

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as well as the testimony of Kathy Winchester, which, if

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you'll remember, that was Brian Winchester's ex wife and at

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one time part of that bestie couple duo if you will,

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with Brian Winchester and Mike Williams and his wife Denise.

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So if you haven't listened to that, go listen to it.

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I also covered the fact that Brian Winchester confessed to

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the murder of Mike Williams, but according to him, not

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without the help of Denise. I also did not give

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you any of the details, and that was intentional. Why

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because I want you to get them directly from the

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horse's mouth, or the assholes mouth in this case. So

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in the next clip I'm gonna play you, you're gonna

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hear the testimony of Brian Winchester, and he lays out

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all of it on the table, from the dynamic of

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the friendships to its marriage, ending to the murder of

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Mike Williams. The cover up. Honestly one of the most

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interesting testimonies I've ever heard out of any testimony I've

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done on Exposed. So it's pretty raw. It's pretty honest,

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though disgusting in every single way you can imagine. It's

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about one hour and forty minutes in length. And here's

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that clip.

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Waityfady, be seated place tell you next Winnes God, it's

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time to stay with it. Called Brian Winchester and mister Winchester.

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Spence worn outside your present, so you may proceed.

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Thank God, afternoon, good afternoon, and you just speak up

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a little bit.

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Good afternoon. That Mike Finn is not doing much, so

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we just need to speak up a little out.

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Please please introduce yourself to the jurors.

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Brian Winchester and mister Winchester. How old are you forty eight?

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Mister Winchester, do you know or did you know Mike Williams? Yes, sir,

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prior to two thousand. How did you know Mike Williams?

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Mike and I went to high school together and got

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to know each other very well. We were very good friends.

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We continue to be friends all through college and all

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through UH are married getting married.

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And.

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We were we were very good friends. He was a

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very good friend.

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Prior to two thousand, were you married, yes, sir? And

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here were you married to Kathy?

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Okay?

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And how long have you known Kathy prior to two thousand?

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From high school?

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Would you, Mike and her all go to high school

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and college together?

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The four of us all went to high school together, Yes, sir.

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Who's the four Denise?

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Okay? And what was Denise's relationship to Mike?

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Denise and Mike were high school sweethearts. My wife, Kathy

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and I were high school sweethearts. We all dated in

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high school and off and on through college and then

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ended up all getting married.

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It's my understanding both that you and Kathy had a child, yes, sir,

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little boy, yes, sir, And that Mike and Denise had

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a little girl, yes, sir. Were they roughly the same age?

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Yes, sir.

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At some point did you and Denise become an item?

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I guess if you will, prior to two thousand.

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Yes, sir.

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When was that.

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When did it start. Yes, it's I mean the date

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that we used was October thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven. There

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was a lot that led up to that point, a

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lot of background.

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Let's talk about what led up at that point.

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As I said, she married her high school sweetheart. I

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married my high school sweetheart. And at first things were

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really good, I think, with all of us. But I

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was not a great husband and spent a lot of

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time away doing hobbies and just stupid stuff. And at

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one point I found a note in my first wife,

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Kathy's purse, and basically I came to realize that she

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had been cheating on me, or or was cheating on

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me with another friend from high school named Gavin, and

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it crushed me. And after that happened, I began to

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look out side of my marriage. You know, I guess

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I had a lot of motivations, but it led me

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to uh eventually end up with Denise. We all started

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going out a lot, all be my wife and I,

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Kathy and Denise and Mike. We started going out to

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bars and concerts and drinking and doing a lot of

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things that we didn't really do well. We were all

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in college when probably it's more appropriate to do those

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sorts of things. But we started going out a lot

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of drinking, and I remember one night in particular. There

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were several nights that we did this, but one night

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in particularly, we we started talking about sex a lot,

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the four of us and I, you know, I was

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friends with Denise in middle school and high school, but

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I was never attracted to her, uh and Hill that point.

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And so after we started talking about sexual things and

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things that married couples shouldn't be talking about with each other,

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I think that's when the spark kind of started between

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the two of us.

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So let's go to October thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven. You

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said that's the date that you used as an anniversary

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or something.

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Yes, sir, we were going out, like I said, going

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out a lot, and one night in particular, we were

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going to Floyd's and so Denise and I we pulled

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up on Tennessee Street, and Denise and I jumped out

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of a car and left Mike and Kathy to go park

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the car and went down to the entrance of Floyd's.

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And that was the first place that we like kissed

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each other and ate out and we had our night

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out and then after we all went home, uh to

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our separate houses.

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Let you and the Nise made out that night, but

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Mike and Kathy were present.

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They were in the car, they were parking the car.

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It was while they were gone, park in the car.

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And so that night just the four of us was

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Lindsay Lockhart there. Not that night, not that night, not

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that night, was just the four of us. And so

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later that night, after Kathy and I went home and

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Mike and a Nice went home, she and I got

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on the phone together and we basically spent the whole

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night talking to each other on the phone, and it

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was just like, I don't know, we just we connected

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like everybody else. I mean, we just really connected, and

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we had a lot of sexual talk and had phone

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sex and that sort of thing, and we agreed, and

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then I met up the next day. I think we

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just met during her lunch break at work. And that's

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kind of what just started the whole ball rolling with

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her and I.

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Was this a one time occurrence or was it ongoing?

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Was what what a one time?

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And hers?

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Oh No, that's that's just what started it. I mean

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then it, you know, it snowballed really fast. We started

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meeting in hotels. We started meeting during the work day.

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We started meeting whenever we had the opportunity if Mike

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was at work. Mike worked a lot. He really was

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a workaholic, quite frankly. She was not happy with with that,

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and UH so we started meeting uh very regular and

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having sex very regularly. Eventually we started uh going on

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trips together. There was times when she and Michaeuld go

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on trips and I would go and and meet with her,

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Like if he had a conference in Panama City, I

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went over and while he was in the conference, Denise

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and I went to Destin together, and we took trips

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to New York South Beach. We we spent a lot

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of time together Orlando. I remember going to Orlando with Kathy.

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I don't remember. I don't remember if Denise and I

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went to Orlando just the two of us or not.

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Probably we we went lots of places Panama City.

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During that time period. You mentioned you'd go to hotel, Yes, sir,

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you meet up here in the day, Yes, sir, we're

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you're at your house, yes, sir? What about her house?

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We would primarily go to her house, and it was

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primarily during the work day. We would meet at home

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depot parking lot, or meet behind Kaiser College and leave

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a vehicle and go to her house or go to

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my house. Sometimes not go to get one of our houses,

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depends on how long she could be away from work.

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But where was at Her.

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House was off Meridian on Starmount two fifty six Starmount,

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and I believe you have.

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A park at a Grace Lutheran Church as one of

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the locations to drive to carl.

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There was a church in the woods off of Meridian,

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and I would park at that church and there was

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a drainage ditch that ran from the church through the

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woods into her neighborhood, and I would walk down the

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drainage ditch and then there was only a short distance

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that I would have to walk from the drainage ditch

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down star Mount to get to her house to kind

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of be undercover, I guess, but there was a church

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on Meridian when I'm sorry. On Mikasuki, I don't know

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why we parked at churches a lot, but I guess

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empty parking lots. But there was a church off of

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Mikasuki Road that I would leave my car at occasionally

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after they moved to uh, Mikisuki Road to me yet

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as well?

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Okay, when was that well, I mean it wasn't When

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did they move there? I don't remember exactly.

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I would say about a year and a half prior

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to Mike's death, if I had to guess.

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And we asked questions earlier about Lindsay Lockhart. Who's that.

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Lindsay Ketchem? Yes, yes, sir, right, she was primary a

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friend of Mike's, that Mike worked for the Ketchens, and

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Lindsay's the Ketchum's daughter.

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What about Angela Stafford?

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Angela worked with the Ketchems as well and was good

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friends with Mike, and I spoke primarily with Mike because

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she worked with Mike.

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At some point, did you and miss Stafford also had

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some sort of relations we.

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When you say relationship, yes, sir, I believe it was

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my birthday. It was either my birthday at Angela's birthday.

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On one occasion, and we wanted to go out, the

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three of us, Denise and I and Angela wanted to

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go out, and for some reason Denise couldn't go out.

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I don't know if she couldn't get a babysitter or

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what happened but she said no, no, you go on.

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And I was like, no, you don't want me to

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go out with her without you? And she's like no,

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to be fine, And so Angela and I went out

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and had a lot to drink and ended up back

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at my house in Colin And Lakes and ended up

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in bed together, and it was dark, and all of

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a sudden, the light came on in my bedroom and

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I looked up and Denise was standing there and she

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said something like she said something sarcastic and said I'm

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sorry or something, and ran out. And I didn't want

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Angela to know it was Denise. I think she did know,

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but I didn't want her to know, And so I

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lied to Angela and told her that that I thought

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it was my wife, my ex wife at that point. Kathy, Uh, but.

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So this is after my death, Yes, sir? What is

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it before you and Denise and announce that y'all were

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dating each other?

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Correct? We were tiding it at that point.

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Talk about life insurance policies. What is it that you

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did back for a living back in two thousand.

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Part of my job was to sell life insurance.

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Okay, did you sell life insurance policy to Mike William.

226
00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:31.200
Yes, Sir, I sold him two different policies. I sold

227
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:39.200
him one policy early on when we talked. He may

228
00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:42.159
have even well, no, we wouldn't have been in college.

229
00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:44.759
It would have been right after we graduated from college. So,

230
00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:52.759
which is when ninety three, ninety four somewhere in there,

231
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.960
pretty early on, because I think at first, uh he

232
00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.440
had his mother as a beneficial sherry. That was a

233
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:06.600
two hundred and fifty thousand dollars policy, and that was

234
00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:11.759
before he was married to Denise. Eventually after they got married,

235
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:18.200
he changed then inneficial on that policy to Denise. And then, uh,

236
00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:20.200
you want me to talk about all that I know

237
00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.440
about his policies, whether I sold him or not, or

238
00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:28.399
talk about Okay, So that was the first policy that

239
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:33.480
I sold him. And then after I was that after

240
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.440
Ansley was born. I believe it was after Annsley was born. Yeah,

241
00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:41.759
it was after Ansley was born. He uh he and

242
00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.360
I talked about increasing his coverage.

243
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.240
Whose idea was that to increase it?

244
00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:50.679
What?

245
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:51.679
Was it a mutual idea?

246
00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.559
I mean it was it was a combination of Denise

247
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:01.919
and I talking about him having more coverage and uh

248
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.599
he and I talking about having him having more coverage.

249
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:09.279
I mean, there was a lot of conversations behind the

250
00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:13.200
scenes as to getting that new policy.

251
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.839
In all honesty, having a larger policy a million dollars

252
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:24.319
on managed marrying kids making the income isn't necessary, necessarily abnormal.

253
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.880
It's not a it wasn't extravagant based on the income

254
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:27.599
that he was making.

255
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.559
But nonetheless there was conversations and he elected to have

256
00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:34.559
a million dollar policies.

257
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.599
Yeah right, he wasn't well, I think to him it

258
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:41.599
was a lot of money. I think he even had

259
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:48.480
conversations with mister Catchum about it. But he, you know,

260
00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.920
he eventually uh decided and I think with Denise's encouragement,

261
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.680
decided to uh to go ahead and get that extra

262
00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:57.720
million dollar policy.

263
00:17:58.759 --> 00:17:59.480
And when was that?

264
00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:05.000
Okay, when did he get the policy? Yes, I get

265
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.359
a little confused because he had one policy that was

266
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:15.200
issued that actually we didn't get the premium paid or something.

267
00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:20.880
So he actually had a second policy, same thing, same company,

268
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:23.160
same everything. I think there was only like a three

269
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:31.440
month gap in between that, but it was within it

270
00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.160
was within I think six months to a year before

271
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:34.960
his death occurred.

272
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:37.480
You mentioned another policy.

273
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:39.480
Let's go side bart for just saying we don't please

274
00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:40.519
the court report.

275
00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:44.359
At some point, were you aware of him having another

276
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.680
policy and neighborhood of half a million dollars?

277
00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:50.319
Yes, sir, he had another policy with a different company

278
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.319
that he bought from a different person. I don't remember

279
00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:57.960
when I first became aware of it, but I know

280
00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:00.119
I became aware of it when I would have and

281
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:04.559
talking with him about a million dollar policy, and his

282
00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.039
thoughts or intentions were that he was going to drop

283
00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:10.920
that five hundred thousand dollars policy and replace it with

284
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:22.440
the million dollar policy.

285
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:25.759
Last past forward to the year two thousand. At some

286
00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:32.200
point were their thoughts of how you and Denise could

287
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:38.480
be together? Yes, sir, How did that get initiated?

288
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.559
I think I think it even started prior to that,

289
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.839
as as I thought about this and had plenty of

290
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:52.680
time alone to think about it. One thing that I

291
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:58.680
have remembered is the prior year, Mike and I were

292
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:02.920
on a hunting tree up together, and it was at

293
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.880
a lake that was dry, and we had to walk

294
00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.440
across the mud, and there were places in the mud

295
00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:13.359
where I don't know how to describe it, but basically

296
00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.279
you could fall through the mud and there was nothing underneath.

297
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:18.799
It was like it was basically I guess people would

298
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:24.680
call it like quicksand and Mike fell into one of

299
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:28.240
those mud holes at one time, and it was just

300
00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.960
he and I out there, and I helped him out

301
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.000
of it, and he had dropped his gun in there

302
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.160
as well, and he ended up going back in it

303
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:43.880
after his gun. But anyways, I remember telling Denise about

304
00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.319
that and how if I hadn't have been there, or

305
00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.599
if I hadn't to help him out that, you know,

306
00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:52.359
it's very likely he would have disappeared. To know, he

307
00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.519
would have known what happened to him. But that's just

308
00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:00.519
something that I had remembered in the past few months

309
00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:04.119
and thinking about this. But I think it was gradual

310
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.160
that we, you know, the more we were together, the

311
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.240
more we wanted to be together, and the more we

312
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.799
griped about Kathy and Mike, the more we wanted to

313
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:19.960
be together. It just kind of it, it just got

314
00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:22.960
worse than were I mean, we just it just snowballed.

315
00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:28.839
We just I don't even know how to describe it.

316
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:34.960
But so, yes, we eventually started talking about options and

317
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:43.880
ways that we could be together. And Denise, because of

318
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.880
the way she was raised, because of her pride. I

319
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:50.480
guess I can't say all the reasons, but she did

320
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:56.759
not want to get divorced and stated that she would

321
00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:00.160
not get divorced, but she still had a desire for

322
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:08.039
us to be together, which narrowed the options even further.

323
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:18.200
I guess I'm sorry who options It was all of

324
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.599
our conversations and planning and everything. I would say, it's

325
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:27.640
very mutual. You know, I'm not going to sit here

326
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:31.519
and say that that. Uh, Denise planned everything, and and

327
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.880
you know I was just a dumb guy who went

328
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:37.359
along with what she wanted to do. I mean I

329
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:40.039
I instigated a lot of it. I helped come up

330
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.759
with ideas. I planned a lot of things, but overall

331
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.480
it was very mutual. I mean, we wanted to be

332
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:52.200
together and we weren't going to let anything stop that.

333
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:59.640
So over the year and a half year prior to

334
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:07.759
Myke's death, we discussed several options and alternatives of ways

335
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:08.720
that we could be together.

336
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:11.480
What was one of.

337
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:17.200
One of the options Mike. Mike worked a lot at

338
00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:21.839
night up at his office, and one of the options

339
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:27.799
was that we could make it look as if there

340
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.720
was a burglary of some sort up at his office.

341
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.519
And that he got shot in some type of robbery

342
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:40.960
or something up at his office. Denise didn't like that idea.

343
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.319
I didn't like that idea, and Denise didn't like that idea,

344
00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:48.039
but primarily because there would be an investigation if something

345
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:55.240
like that occurred. So another idea, We all used to

346
00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.720
go out on boats a lot, and Mike had a boat.

347
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:02.240
And another option was that the four of us would

348
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:08.480
go out on a boat onto the golf, Me and

349
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:12.759
Kathy and Denise and Mike and uh, we go out

350
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:18.960
in a boat on the golf and basically that Kathy

351
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:23.960
and Mike would be pushed over board, and that Denise

352
00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:27.200
and I would find a booie way offshore that we

353
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:31.599
could uh hold on to and either let the boat

354
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.880
sink or let the boat take off on its own

355
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:35.599
or whatever, and make it look like we had an

356
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:38.799
accident on the water and that Denise and I had

357
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:39.960
survived the accident.

358
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:50.559
Obviously, that's why didn't happen. Correct At some point did

359
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:53.359
the discussion turn to strictly Mike being the one that dies.

360
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.920
I had no desire whatsoever for anything to happen to Cat.

361
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:07.759
I didn't really emphasize that with Denise because it was

362
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:12.599
not good for me to express affection or you know,

363
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:18.000
care about what happened to Kathy with Denise, but silently

364
00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:21.119
to myself. I was never going to allow anything to

365
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:29.720
happen to my son's mom. So another scenario that we

366
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:33.720
came up with was Mike and I going on a

367
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.319
hunting trip together, uh and there being an accident where

368
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:42.160
both he and I ended up in the water and uh,

369
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:46.799
he drowned and I did not. Denise liked this idea

370
00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:53.160
because it I don't know how to word it exactly,

371
00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:59.440
but she felt better, I guess, about herself, or we

372
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.960
could feel bad better about ourselves if there was a

373
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.880
chance that he could make it out of it, you know.

374
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.240
I mean, I think there was even talk about, you know, well,

375
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:11.160
it'll be up to God what happens and not us.

376
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.640
It won't be a murder, It'll be, you know, an accident.

377
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:21.640
It's kind of screwed up thinking, but that was a

378
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:26.160
scenario that she could live with.

379
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.279
I guess it would be fair to say that having

380
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:33.200
the attention of being a widow was far better in

381
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:34.960
her mind than being a divorcee.

382
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:40.759
Yes, sir, better to be a rich widow than a

383
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:46.960
poor divorcee and her her biggest concern with the divorce

384
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:49.960
was she didn't want to share custody of Annesley with

385
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:53.079
with Mike. She was not going to have Annsley going

386
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:57.680
back and forth to two different houses. She wasn't going

387
00:26:57.720 --> 00:26:58.400
to give that up.

388
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.920
The droughting scenario, did you take any further steps to

389
00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:07.519
make that happen?

390
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:17.839
Like, what do you mean taking any steps to me

391
00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:26.079
that happened? Like what happened? Yes, sir. So there was

392
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:30.319
a limited time that we could make that scenario occur

393
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:33.240
because it had to be during the duck season. There's

394
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:35.319
only certain days that you can actually go hunting on

395
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:42.640
duck in duck season, and it had to be at

396
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:47.160
a place where, in my opinion, it would have been successful,

397
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.920
which kind of ruled out all of the local lakes

398
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:55.079
around Tallahassee because the lakes around Tallahassee are mostly shallow lakes.

399
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.799
Seminole is a lot deeper.

400
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.160
Me out of the mantap questions we talked about the

401
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:05.920
life insurance policies and the five hundred dollars lapsing to

402
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:07.799
that also factor in the Aguilliam.

403
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.359
Yes, sir, there were a lot of things that were

404
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:15.880
kind of pressuring us for this to happen when it did.

405
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:21.720
One was Mike had intended for that policy, the five

406
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:25.799
hundred thousand dollars policy, to lapse. He was not intended

407
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:33.680
to continue it, and so behind his back, Denise paid

408
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:35.920
one more I can't remember if it was quarterly or

409
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:42.079
semiannual premium, but we kept it going one more premium period,

410
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:43.960
and we knew we weren't going to be able to

411
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.319
keep it going perpetually, that he would eventually see this money. Hey,

412
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.359
he's going out of the checking account for that policy

413
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:54.319
that I didn't want anymore. So there was that he

414
00:28:54.599 --> 00:29:01.240
was becoming a couple of things. He was getting angrier

415
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:04.160
and angrier about the fact that she wasn't having sex

416
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.920
with him. He and I took a trip in November

417
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.200
out to Arkansas together, so we spent twenty hours in

418
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:18.400
the car together, and I heard a lot about how

419
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.839
unhappy he was, you know, with Denise, and uh, he

420
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.480
was not happy with not having not having sex. Of

421
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:28.839
course I was. I didn't want him having sex with her.

422
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:31.119
H she didn't want to have sex with him. But

423
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:36.160
so he even talked about moving away. He talked about

424
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.559
moving out west, He talked about all kind of you

425
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:45.240
know things, But he was becoming very unhappy, and he

426
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:50.519
was also becoming suspicious. He raised his suspicions with me,

427
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:55.920
not about me, but about Denise on that trip to Arkansas,

428
00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:00.039
that he thought something was going on with her. He

429
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:02.960
he thought she was using drugs. He thought he had

430
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.599
seen money disappearing. She'd been taking cash withdrawals out of

431
00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:10.240
the ATM, which I knew was for travel for us

432
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:13.039
when we would go out of town, but he he

433
00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:15.160
kind of thought it might be for drugs or something.

434
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:21.240
I think he even approached Denise's mom about it at

435
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:28.799
some point, asking her about it. But so also, their

436
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:36.319
anniversary was coming up in December and the sixteenth or

437
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:41.880
the seventeenth, I believe, sixteenth, I believe it was, and

438
00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:47.160
he planned for them to go to Apple at Chicola

439
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:51.960
and stay at the Gibson Inn over there, and I

440
00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:55.319
think made it pretty clear that he was ready. You know,

441
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.599
Denise didn't have sex with him while the while she

442
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.279
was praying and after Hansley was born, you know, to

443
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:08.680
my knowledge at all, unless she lied to me about it,

444
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:11.000
which she could have. But you know, based on what

445
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.039
Mike said, he kind of confirmed that and We checked

446
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:16.119
up on each other a lot. Denise would check up

447
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:17.920
to see if I was having sex with Kathy, and

448
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:19.480
I would check up on her to see if she

449
00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:22.480
was having sex with Mike, because we, you know, we

450
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:30.200
consider ourselves a couple together. And uh, anyway, so I

451
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.000
think Mike made it pretty clear that this anniversary trip,

452
00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:35.480
it was going to be expected that this was, you know,

453
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:38.400
going to be their starting over date, that it had

454
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:40.680
been long enough since Annily had been born that it

455
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:44.640
was time for them to start having sex again. I

456
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.279
think he was kind of putting some pressure on Denise

457
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:49.759
about that, and she did not want to go on

458
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:51.599
that trip, did not want that trip to happen.

459
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:56.839
So it was a plan made. I'll take steps at

460
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:57.599
kil Mike.

461
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:03.160
Yes, sir, So you know we decided that that was

462
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:04.960
the plan that we were going to go with.

463
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.240
Well, let me ask you a question. You earlier talked

464
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:10.480
about timing the essence because of the duck season. Why

465
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:12.759
is it important for the duck season aspect.

466
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:16.519
Of this, Well, because that was the plan, was he

467
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.759
and I to be on a duck hunting trip together

468
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:23.359
and to go to Lake Seminole. So duck season only

469
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:28.680
lasted from Thanksgiving until the end of January. I may

470
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.039
have even been shorter back in those days, but there

471
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:34.119
was a short timeframe that that the season was in,

472
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:38.759
and then within that season, uh, you know, we couldn't

473
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:44.000
necessarily go every single day. You had to In some

474
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.000
places you can only hunt on Wednesdays and on the

475
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:53.240
weekend Saturday Sundays. But so we knew our window of

476
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:59.400
opportunity was was closing, basically, so it was decided that

477
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:00.799
that was the plan and we were going to go

478
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:11.279
with and we there were several things involved. Denise really

479
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:13.400
didn't have to do a whole lot other than come

480
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:18.079
up with an alibi for herself and make sure that

481
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:24.720
Mike went. I had to had to do you know more, obviously.

482
00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:30.960
But it was decided that, uh, Mike and I would

483
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.680
go on this trip. I had to, you know, I

484
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.400
wanted to make sure he was going to show up. So, uh,

485
00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:42.720
you know, there was a week prior that that this

486
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.039
was planned and that it that it didn't occur before

487
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:48.160
the actual time that it did occur.

488
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.000
Let's talk about that prior supposed to occur.

489
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:56.359
Yes, sir, So a week prior we had it set

490
00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:58.480
up that this was going to be the date that

491
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:02.519
that the trip was going to occur. So Mike and

492
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.720
I planned uh to go, you know, on the trip.

493
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:12.079
And then late the night before, I believe it was

494
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:16.320
before midnight, and I believe Mike was at his office

495
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:21.559
and he called me and he said, I can't go.

496
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:23.480
Denise has called me. She doesn't want me to go

497
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:31.199
uh on the trip. And I was very surprised, uh,

498
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:37.079
shocked kind of and UH. I was like, okay, and

499
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:40.360
because we had you know, mail, this plan for this

500
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:45.519
to happen. And so I can't remember when I called Denise.

501
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:48.280
I think I called her immediately after I hung up

502
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:52.119
with with Mike, uh, just to see, you know what,

503
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:56.199
what what is going on? I mean, because this isn't

504
00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:59.000
something you need to be wishy washy about.

505
00:34:59.800 --> 00:34:59.920
Uh.

506
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:03.599
And I can't I can't remember if I talked to

507
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:05.280
her that night or if it was the next day,

508
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:11.559
but we talked very shortly afterward. And basically it was

509
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:18.119
just a cold feet kind of thing and and she,

510
00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:23.119
you know, got cold feet at the last minute.

511
00:35:24.039 --> 00:35:26.880
So we went was gonna happen.

512
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:30.840
It wasn't that the plan was off, but we we

513
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:34.519
talked about it, and we we had several you know

514
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.760
more conversations that you know, Look, this is either we're

515
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:40.400
going to go forward with us or we're not. I mean,

516
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:44.360
we're either going to be together or not. You know,

517
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.719
like I said that the policy is ending. You got

518
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:53.559
that anniversary trip coming up next weekend. You know Duxy's

519
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:56.039
is going to be ending soon. Do you want this

520
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.320
to happen or not? You know, I don't want to

521
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.239
set these plans up if this isn't something you know,

522
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:04.960
this isn't something you need to be wishy washy about.

523
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:10.599
I guess basically, so, at some point during the next week,

524
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:14.360
it was decided again that yes, this was what we

525
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:15.000
were going to do.

526
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:21.599
You're talking about you're telling her, can't be wishy washy.

527
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.320
Times are ending, we have a certain time frame, we

528
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.639
have to do this. And then it almost sounds like

529
00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:32.880
you were pressuring her that whatever pressuring her.

530
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:37.280
I don't think it was pressuring her as much as

531
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.159
stating the facts of this is this is the reality

532
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.719
of the situation. If you want this to happen, this

533
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:50.599
is the best time for her to happen. I was

534
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.159
not happy. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I was not

535
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:56.000
happy about the fact that we have made these plans

536
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:58.079
and I had committed that this was what was going

537
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.800
to happen, and then at the last second she backed out.

538
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:06.760
I didn't understand that, and I wasn't real happy about that.

539
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:11.519
But we all those issues that you just talked about,

540
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:15.239
things that you previously discussed with her, Yes, time frames

541
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:18.559
and everything like that. Right, so you call her out

542
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:20.800
and you tell her all these things to not be

543
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.639
wishy washy. Were there other communications where she was talking

544
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.760
to you about putting in plans back in place?

545
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:33.280
Right? Yeah, Well we met up eventually, and probably met

546
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:35.360
up several times that week. At that point, we were

547
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:40.880
meeting you know, a lot, and so we met I'm sorry.

548
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:42.199
Were talked about I met up? Am I going out

549
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:43.360
to eat? Or what are you talking about?

550
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:45.760
No, the same as we always did, meeting during the

551
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:50.119
work day, primarily during lunches that sort of thing.

552
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:52.400
So we have about sexual relations.

553
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:55.840
Well, we didn't always have had sex every time, but

554
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:59.199
during that week, the primary reason we were meeting was

555
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.679
to discuss what are we going to do here? You know, what,

556
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:07.400
what's going to happen here? So we we met up

557
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:09.840
during that week and and talked about it, and uh

558
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:14.320
came to the conclusion again, and I remember where it was.

559
00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:17.239
It was at Road and Cove at the boat ramp

560
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:22.400
at Roden Cove on Lake Jackson off of Meridian Road,

561
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:29.320
at the end of Roading Cove Road. But we decided

562
00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:32.599
that that this is what we're going to do. We're

563
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:35.039
not going to back out at the last minute. And

564
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:38.800
and in a six sort of way, you know, it

565
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.440
was kind of like, you know, well, if God wants

566
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:43.679
this to happen, this is what's going to happen. Because

567
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.159
the plan again was that it was going to be

568
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:49.239
an accident, and you know there would be a chance

569
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.199
that he could get out of it.

570
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:55.000
You see, he met up. Why meet up rather than

571
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:56.320
phone calls or something like that.

572
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:02.840
Reason, well, that's not necessarily something you really want to

573
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:05.760
talk about on the phone. We weren't really that concerned

574
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:08.920
or paranoid about that sort of thing at that point.

575
00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:12.880
But we just met up routinely because we wanted to

576
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.119
meet each other, because we wanted to see each other

577
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:15.920
and beat together.

578
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:21.599
All Right, So the time you meet up at the

579
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:26.280
code and make a decision, So what's supposed to happen.

580
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.119
So it's the same plan, it's it's the same night,

581
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:40.360
just a week later, and from what I remember about

582
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:49.039
that night before Mike, Mike had volunteered to ring the

583
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:58.480
bell for the Salvation Army like a Walmart, and Kathy

584
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:01.960
and I had planned down going out to a concert

585
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:09.679
at Floyd's, and I wanted us all to go out,

586
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:14.119
as I remember it, but that didn't end up happening

587
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:15.960
for whatever reason. I don't know if they couldn't get

588
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:19.639
a babysitter or why they didn't end up going out

589
00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:22.519
with us, but Kathy and I did end up going

590
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:26.480
out to that concert. Part of the plan was that

591
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:31.199
I wanted Kathy to to basically be as drunk as

592
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:33.519
possible the night before, because I wanted her to sleep

593
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:41.760
late in late the next morning my my a, my alibi.

594
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.440
The plan was that all this would occur very early

595
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.760
in the morning, and I would have time enough to

596
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.679
get back and meet my father in law up near

597
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:57.400
it and Thomasville Road to actually go on a hunting

598
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.880
trip with him. So that was going to be my cover,

599
00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:02.960
going to be my alibi. Her alibi was going to

600
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:06.559
be that she was at home with Annesley, and the

601
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.079
plan was when Mike didn't come back home that eventually

602
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:12.039
she was going to start calling her sisters and her

603
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:15.239
dad from her house phone so that she could establish

604
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:17.159
that she was at the house. Proved that she was

605
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:20.400
at the house with Annesley.

606
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.639
Okay, so what was planning to make this happen? What happened?

607
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:34.920
So Kathy and I went out and went to the concert,

608
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:38.559
got home late. She did have a lot to drink.

609
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:44.960
There was discussion between me and Denise, and I can't

610
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.199
remember if I actually did this or not, or if

611
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:50.559
I did it the week prior or I just really

612
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.000
can't remember, but I remember Denise and I talking about

613
00:41:54.320 --> 00:42:03.679
there was some medication, because medication that Kathy had, and

614
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:08.519
we talked about giving her a little bit of that

615
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:14.239
medication that would cause her to sleep really heavy and

616
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:18.360
make sure that she slept really good through all of it,

617
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:23.079
because I didn't want her to wake up and realize

618
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:24.719
how early. I didn't want her to know how early

619
00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:31.199
I was leaving the next morning. So the plan with

620
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:34.559
Mike was that I would meet him at a gas

621
00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.440
station on Thomasvield Road up near the overpath, well the

622
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:39.559
overpass I don't think was there at that point, but

623
00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:42.079
meet him up at a gas station up near the

624
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:48.480
McDonald's up there and I met him there. I had

625
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:52.599
told him that we were going to go to a

626
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:59.199
secret special spot to go honting, and that he needed

627
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:02.119
to bring his waiters. I had to make sure that

628
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:05.199
he brought his waiters, because the belief was there was

629
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:07.639
kind of like a there's still it is probably like

630
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.559
a duck hunter's myth that if you follow overboard with

631
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:13.119
your waiters, you're going to sink really quick and drown.

632
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.199
So I had to make sure that he brought his waiters.

633
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:23.400
And so I told him about this you know, great

634
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:24.960
spot that we were going to go, and he needed

635
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:27.760
to bring his waiters. So I met him at the

636
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:31.719
gas station and I told him when he drove up,

637
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:35.800
I was real paranoid about phones and him calling me

638
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:38.360
and there being a record of him calling me. So

639
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:40.440
I told him that my battery was dead on my phone,

640
00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:42.760
that there was no reason for him to call me

641
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:46.320
as we were driving over to the lake, because normally

642
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:48.800
we would have called and talked to each other on

643
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.760
the phone or even ridden together. I don't even remember

644
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.760
how or why I told him that I needed to

645
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:57.840
use my vehicle instead of just going in his. But

646
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.239
for somehow I came up with some reason to do that.

647
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:05.840
You said that you called him and tried to get

648
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:07.800
him and make sure he was going to get the waiters.

649
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:11.400
When did you call him and talked about that?

650
00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:15.960
I don't remember specifically. We talked several times, you know,

651
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:24.519
Mike and I talked every day ourselves, and so you know,

652
00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:27.800
we talked about hunting all the time, and we talked

653
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.639
about this trip several times prior to it happening. Okay,

654
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:40.280
So I followed him over to the lake. He had

655
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.840
his boat behind his Bronco and I followed him in

656
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:51.320
my white suburban lake seminole, which is about fifty minutes away,

657
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:57.480
and I had told him what landing we needed to

658
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:02.719
go to, and so we pulled into the landing and

659
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:10.159
uh launched the boat and uh, I, I said something.

660
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:13.679
I had to make sure that he had the waiters on.

661
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:16.199
So I said something about we're running low on time

662
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:18.280
or or you know, we're going to be really pushed.

663
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:23.679
And it was so important because I believed and we

664
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:27.440
believed that that if you fell overboard with the waiters on,

665
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:35.960
that you would sink pretty quickly. So I told him

666
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.360
something like, we're you know, we're running late. You know,

667
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:40.159
we need to go ahead and put our waiters on,

668
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:44.440
you know, here and now before we get in and go.

669
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:49.199
And so we both did that, and because I knew

670
00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:54.119
where we were going hunting, I was in the back

671
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:58.519
of the boat driving and he was in the front.

672
00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:03.599
Uh So, what kind of photo were talking? My lock

673
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:04.639
A large airboat.

674
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:08.400
It was a what's called a janou is basically a

675
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:13.199
canoe that has a flat, flat back that you can

676
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:15.440
put a motor, a small motor on the back of it.

677
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:18.639
I'm familiar with canoes. Canoes can be a little tipsy.

678
00:46:18.679 --> 00:46:22.760
This boat, this boat was, Yes, basically like canoes are

679
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:23.719
pretty pretty tippy.

680
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:26.159
Okay, So you had you put a level of water

681
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:26.840
and you're heading out.

682
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:31.000
When you're driving, Yes, sir, I was driving, and I

683
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:35.920
know I was very concerned about the time. Everything had

684
00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:39.639
taken longer than what I had anticipated, and I had

685
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.000
to be back in town early enough in time to

686
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:46.639
meet my father in law for for my alibi trip

687
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:54.880
to occur. And so we we headed out and there

688
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:59.039
was a deep area maybe a couple of hundred yards

689
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:04.960
from the landing that we put in at. And we

690
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:07.599
got to that area that I knew was a deep area,

691
00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:13.880
and I don't remember exactly how I got him to

692
00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:16.599
stand up, But I don't know if I pretended something

693
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:18.599
was wrong with the motor or the weight and the

694
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:23.360
boat was off or something. But I basically stopped the

695
00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:27.280
boat and got him to stand up, and when he did,

696
00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:28.880
I pushed him into the water.

697
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:32.039
What up and next?

698
00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:50.400
So he was in the water and he was like struggling,

699
00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:57.599
and the motor of the boat was still running, and

700
00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:03.800
I pulled off just a little bit to get kind

701
00:48:03.800 --> 00:48:07.119
of away from him so that he couldn't reach back

702
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:10.559
into the boat. And I didn't know it at the time.

703
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:13.199
I didn't know if he was trying to swim or

704
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.320
I didn't know what was going on. But what I

705
00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:20.079
came to find out or eventually realized, was he was

706
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:27.719
taking the waiters and the jacket off, and he he

707
00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:33.760
got those off. And I think I forgot to tell

708
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:38.880
you about this part before, but I remember now that

709
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:41.599
that area of the lake had a lot of snags,

710
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:43.760
a lot of dead trees that come up out of

711
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:45.679
the water, and there's a lot of stumps that come

712
00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:52.840
up out of the water. And he swam over to

713
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:59.159
one of those stumps and held on to it, and

714
00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:04.760
he was paying and I was panicking, and none of

715
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:06.920
this was like going well. I thought it was going

716
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:14.039
to go and I didn't I didn't know what to do.

717
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:29.320
But mh, he was he started to yell, and I

718
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:29.760
didn't know.

719
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:31.800
I didn't know. I didn't know how to get out

720
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:42.440
of that situation. And so I had my gun in

721
00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:53.559
the boat, and uh so I loaded my gun and

722
00:49:53.639 --> 00:50:00.760
I just I made one or two circles around, yeah,

723
00:50:03.320 --> 00:50:11.480
and I ended up circling closer towards him, and he

724
00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:17.480
was in the water, and as I passed by, I

725
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:21.079
shot him.

726
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:23.719
Where did you shoot him?

727
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:47.440
The head? So when I shot him, it was dark

728
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:54.480
and there was a bright flash when that happened, and

729
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:56.880
I didn't want to see what happened, so like I

730
00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:59.599
closed my eyes when the instant of that flash happened.

731
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:06.400
And the boat was moving as this happened. And so

732
00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:08.679
I turned back around and came back to where he

733
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:18.360
was and got to the stump, and I knew I

734
00:51:18.360 --> 00:51:24.679
couldn't I couldn't leave him there being shot, So I

735
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.800
was gonna have to do something to cover this up.

736
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:35.880
And I reached down and he wasn't far under the water,

737
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:40.679
but like my whole arm got wet and I remember wondering, like,

738
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:43.239
how am I gonna explain that my arm is soaking wet?

739
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:45.719
And I was afraid I was gonna have to jump

740
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:51.039
into the water. But I reached down and I grabbed

741
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:59.400
a hold of him, and I was closer because of

742
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:02.159
where I had driven the boat. I was closer to

743
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:05.360
another landing, just a little dirt landing that was further

744
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:09.920
down the shoreline, and so I decided to motor the

745
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:13.400
boat and pull him over to that landing over there.

746
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:19.480
So I drug him in the water over to that

747
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:27.400
dirt ramp and left the boat, left him, ran back

748
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:30.679
down to where our trucks were parked, got my truck,

749
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:38.159
came back to where he was, backed my truck to

750
00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:45.639
the edge of the water and let the tailgate down

751
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:52.599
and ended up putting him in the back of my suburban,

752
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.199
and I pushed the boat back out into the water

753
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.920
to make it looked like, you know, his boat was

754
00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:05.320
out there and he had drowned or disappear or what.

755
00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:08.159
You know. I didn't give a lot of thought as

756
00:53:08.199 --> 00:53:09.920
to what was going to happen after that. I was

757
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:13.159
just picked as to getting out of that area and

758
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:21.679
covering this up. So I realized it was probably getting

759
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:23.480
too late at this point to meet up with my

760
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:26.119
father in law, but I was still going to try,

761
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:28.320
and I sped.

762
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:30.760
Let me stop you for a moment. He said that

763
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:33.880
you were able to loaded him into your suburban? Yes, sir,

764
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:36.039
How big was Mike?

765
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:39.840
He was a little bit bigger than me. He was

766
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.639
a little heavier than me. We were pretty close in size,

767
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:44.000
but he was a little bit bigger than me.

768
00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:46.239
How much do you wish.

769
00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:52.639
Back then? Probably one seventy one seventy something like that.

770
00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:54.639
How were you able to get a man that's under

771
00:53:54.719 --> 00:54:01.519
twenty five pounds dead weight into the fact year by yourself?

772
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:11.360
It was not easy, It was not pretty. But I

773
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:18.760
had to make it happen. I mean, I had no choice.

774
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:23.199
And I can't even explain, like how your body feels

775
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:26.239
in that kind of a situation, don't. I don't unless

776
00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:27.920
somebody's been to war or something, I don't. I don't

777
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:29.599
even know how to explain. But like you have so

778
00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:34.760
much adrenaline pumping through your body, you're just it's just crazy.

779
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:41.079
But you know, it wasn't pretty, And I never I

780
00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:45.840
made a purposeful decision to never view him, to look

781
00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:52.679
at look at him, but uh, I backed the truck

782
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:55.840
down and there was an angle to the ramp, so

783
00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:58.360
the back of my truck was angled down toward the water,

784
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:00.280
and I backed it all the way down to the

785
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:02.320
edge of the water. So it wasn't there was no

786
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:06.280
distance involved. But yes, he was very heavy and it

787
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:12.599
was not easy to do that, but I had no choice.

788
00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:14.800
Said, you were concerned about meeting up with your father

789
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:16.800
in law at that point. What happened next?

790
00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:26.559
I sped back toward Tallahassee, and as I was driving there,

791
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:29.719
I was realizing I'm not going to make it in time.

792
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:32.000
I didn't want to call him because I didn't want

793
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:33.679
to turn my phone on. I didn't want there to

794
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:38.280
be any record of where my phone was at, so

795
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:41.320
I left my phone off. And by the time I

796
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:44.079
got back to Tallahassee, you know, I looked through the

797
00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:47.039
parking lot. We were going to meet at Carriagegate parking lot.

798
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:50.199
I looked through the parking lot, didn't see his vehicle there,

799
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:52.480
and I decided the best thing for me to do

800
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.719
was to go back to my house and pretend that

801
00:55:55.760 --> 00:55:59.239
I had overslept, and then I could also make a

802
00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:02.840
phone call from my house to my father in law,

803
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:05.920
which would kind of prove that I overslept and I

804
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:10.679
was at my house, and I wanted there to be

805
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:18.280
a record of that. I actually when when I was

806
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:21.159
driving on Thomasville Road, I actually came up to a

807
00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:24.519
stop light and there was a state trooper across from me,

808
00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:28.800
and I can remember just being freaked out about it,

809
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:34.039
but I mean, I didn't have any choice, so and

810
00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:39.119
that's what I decided to do. So I drove home, UH,

811
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:47.119
pulled up into my driveway and was really really hoping

812
00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:52.639
that Kathy was still asleep. I went into the house

813
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:57.639
as quietly as I could. She was still asleep. I

814
00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:03.880
crawled back into the bed and had a phone there

815
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:08.119
on the floor. I can remember dialing my father in

816
00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:11.840
law and telling him apologizing, I'm so sorry I overslept,

817
00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:19.519
and I didn't want to wake Kathy up, obviously because

818
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:24.719
I had what was in the driveway, but I wanted

819
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:30.280
her to know I was there, so I I I

820
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:31.920
can't remember what I said to her, but I think

821
00:57:31.960 --> 00:57:34.079
I halfway woke her up and said I'm gonna go

822
00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:37.039
out with the dogs or trained dogs. I trained dogs

823
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:38.719
at the time. It was gone for hours at a

824
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:42.039
time from the house doing stuff like that. But I

825
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:44.239
don't remember exactly what I told her, but I basically

826
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:47.280
I wanted her to I wanted her to know that

827
00:57:47.320 --> 00:57:49.519
I was there, to confirm that I was there, but

828
00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:53.320
not wake up and start asking me any questions about

829
00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:55.559
what happened, Why did you ever sleep, you know, anything

830
00:57:55.599 --> 00:58:02.840
like that. So I did that, and then I went

831
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:07.599
back out to the driveway to leave. When I went

832
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:13.079
out to the driveway, my driveway was angled, and I

833
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:18.039
was walking behind my truck and I saw out of

834
00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:22.360
the back tailgate blood was coming out of the back

835
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:27.199
of my tailgate and dripping onto the driveway, and that

836
00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:34.719
freaked me out. So I rinsed that off and was

837
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:36.800
trying to figure out. I'd been thinking on the way

838
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:40.320
from Lake Seminole back to Tallahassee what was I going

839
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:44.559
to do with him? And I don't know when I decided,

840
00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:47.400
but you know, ultimately I decided it had to be close,

841
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:50.360
and it had to be quick, and it had to

842
00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:54.840
be obviously a location that you know, he wouldn't be found.

843
00:58:56.400 --> 00:59:05.639
And I decided on an isolated dirt road boat ramp

844
00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:13.199
down at Carl Lake. But I had no tools, and

845
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:18.840
at that point Carl Lake was very low. Parts of

846
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:21.519
it were dry, and like the other lakes, there were

847
00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:25.480
areas in the lake that had puddles of water or mud.

848
00:59:26.599 --> 00:59:30.480
And my thinking was, if I got him there, I

849
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:33.400
could take him out to one of those water holes

850
00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:37.599
or mud holes and put him in one of those

851
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:41.519
and that would be a safe place that he wouldn't

852
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:49.159
be found. But I had no I had nothing to

853
00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:52.280
do this with. So I had to go to a store.

854
00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:57.000
And I'm ninety percent sure the store that I ended

855
00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:02.159
up at was Walmart. Yeah, And I bought a shovel,

856
01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:07.480
I bought a tart, and I bought weights, like weights

857
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:11.280
that you lift weights with, because I was thinking that

858
01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:14.079
I would use the weights to weigh his body down

859
01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:20.679
in the water or a mud hole or whatever. While

860
01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:24.199
I was in that store, I actually ran into a

861
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:32.280
friend of ours, Mike Phillips, and uh, I actually totally

862
01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:35.000
forgot about running into him or having any conversation with

863
01:00:35.079 --> 01:00:38.400
him until I ran into him later during the search

864
01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:42.320
for Mike Williams at the lake, and he said, yeah,

865
01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:44.800
I remember seeing you that day. You were you were

866
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:47.159
in a panic, you were in you were in a hurry,

867
01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:49.679
and he was thinking I was in a hurry to

868
01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:54.000
go search for Mike. But I was actually in a

869
01:00:54.079 --> 01:01:00.440
hurry because I was trying to bury Mike. But uh, anyways,

870
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:06.119
I bought those things at the Walmart and drove to

871
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:10.320
car Lake down to the end of the road, turned

872
01:01:10.320 --> 01:01:16.360
my truck around backwards, back down to the landing, and

873
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:18.800
you know, my thinking was, I was going to drag

874
01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:22.679
him way out until lake. And so I got the

875
01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:27.119
tarp and put it on the ground behind my truck,

876
01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:32.400
pulled Mike out, put him on that tarp, kind of

877
01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:39.360
wrapped him up. And as I pulled him, instantly I

878
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:41.880
knew there was no way I was going to be

879
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:46.400
able to move him any distance at all, that he

880
01:01:46.519 --> 01:01:48.400
was just too heavy and that wasn't going to happen.

881
01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:56.920
So I had to find somewhere close. And it was

882
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:01.400
a really grown up area. And like I said, the

883
01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:04.400
lake was almost dry, so the water was down, and

884
01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:10.440
I I decided to to put him down, uh in

885
01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:12.960
the in the lake bed itself, kind of on the

886
01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:16.880
edge of the lake, so that eventually when the water

887
01:02:16.960 --> 01:02:21.519
came back up, that area would be underwater and it

888
01:02:21.599 --> 01:02:28.159
was hidden from the road somewhat. And uh so I

889
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:35.079
pulled him down to that area and started digging a hole,

890
01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:42.360
and Uh, it was. It was hard.

891
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:44.920
I was.

892
01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:49.400
I was exhausted. I was getting bitten by ants all

893
01:02:49.480 --> 01:02:53.320
over me. I remember being scared that I was gonna

894
01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:54.960
have to explain why I had ant bites all over

895
01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:59.880
me because there was ants where I was digging. But

896
01:03:00.199 --> 01:03:05.119
Tom actually, while I was doing this, I heard a

897
01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:11.320
vehicle coming down the road, and so I kind of

898
01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:14.320
I had there were bushes there anyway, but I kind

899
01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:16.840
of made sure everything was flat and you couldn't see

900
01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:18.679
it from the road, and I ran back up to

901
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:21.400
my truck and a guy drove up. He was coming

902
01:03:21.440 --> 01:03:25.280
down there to go hunting out on the lake itself,

903
01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:30.199
and he and I made small talk, chit chat. I

904
01:03:30.280 --> 01:03:34.440
was obviously very paranoid, and I got the impression. I

905
01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:38.320
can't remember why now, but at the time I got

906
01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:40.639
the impression that he might have been like a law

907
01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:43.159
enforcement type guy, maybe like a game warden or something

908
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:46.920
like that. But he talked about he was going deer

909
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:52.239
hunting out on the lake bed, and so I kind

910
01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:54.400
of hung out at my truck and waited for him

911
01:03:54.400 --> 01:03:59.719
to get several hundred yards away before I went back

912
01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:06.480
to uh digging so eventually I got a hole big

913
01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:22.239
enough and I put him there and covered him up. Yeah,

914
01:04:22.559 --> 01:04:28.840
made sure it, you know, didn't look suspicious as as

915
01:04:28.840 --> 01:04:34.679
well as I could. But now I still had a

916
01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:40.079
problem because my truck had blood on the back of it,

917
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.119
and it was getting later and later in the day,

918
01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:49.599
and I knew at some point people were gonna start

919
01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:55.800
calling me. There was a family Christmas with my wife's

920
01:04:55.800 --> 01:04:57.760
family up in kro that we were supposed to be

921
01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:03.760
going to that afternoon or that night. You know, I

922
01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:10.199
was just running out of time, and uh so I

923
01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:13.840
uh put the truck, put the shovel in the back

924
01:05:13.880 --> 01:05:15.960
of the truck, and I knew I had to clean

925
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:25.519
my truck up. And I think at that point I

926
01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:28.639
can't remember the order. I can't remember. I went two

927
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:34.599
different places. I went two different places to clean up

928
01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:39.599
my truck. One of them was I went to my

929
01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:46.239
parents' house and parked. They have a big lot, and

930
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:50.079
I parked toward the back of it, and uh tried

931
01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:53.880
to use a hose to clean out the truck and

932
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:59.159
it it. I think I went there first because it

933
01:05:59.199 --> 01:06:02.599
was closer to where I was, but it wasn't working

934
01:06:02.719 --> 01:06:07.159
very well, and I realized I needed to have like

935
01:06:07.199 --> 01:06:14.639
a pressure washer, and so I left there and drove

936
01:06:14.719 --> 01:06:16.639
around trying to find a car wash that had a

937
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:20.039
pressure washer, and there were none on my side of town.

938
01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:24.159
So I ended up at Tharpe Street in Old Bainbridge.

939
01:06:24.199 --> 01:06:27.000
There was a car wash there that I had pressure washers,

940
01:06:28.280 --> 01:06:32.719
and I cleaned out the back as best as I

941
01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:42.960
could there. And after that, let's.

942
01:06:42.760 --> 01:06:46.400
Stop for a second. Yes, sir, married him at the

943
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:53.719
car Lake. At some point you, for lack of better term,

944
01:06:53.840 --> 01:06:57.000
go about your business, go to Caro, meet Kathy and

945
01:06:57.039 --> 01:06:58.199
everybody in the family.

946
01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:01.559
Right after I after I cleaned up.

947
01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:04.119
I'm sorry you did you go up to Caro meet

948
01:07:04.119 --> 01:07:07.920
Cathy in the family. Yes, at some point where you

949
01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:12.119
contacted about Mike being gone missing?

950
01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:18.599
Right? My recollection is that my dad called me and

951
01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:21.159
said Mike's missing.

952
01:07:24.239 --> 01:07:29.039
Whenever that happened? Would you do? And but let me

953
01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:30.320
back up. When was that?

954
01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:35.800
I remember it being on the drive home from being

955
01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:37.679
up at Cairo for the Christmas party.

956
01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:41.239
So is this the same Saturday? Yes, sir okay, in

957
01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:45.320
the evening hours, Yes, sir okay, what would you do?

958
01:07:48.280 --> 01:07:50.840
You know? When my dad called I kind of said, well,

959
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:53.360
that's Mike, because Mike was known to be laid and

960
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:57.280
kind of irresponsible at times going out on honting or

961
01:07:57.320 --> 01:08:02.400
fishing trips or whatever. But you know, I said, I'll

962
01:08:02.519 --> 01:08:05.599
I'll get back there and we'll, you know, go go

963
01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:12.400
look for him. And uh so got back to town,

964
01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:18.119
met up with my dad, and went with him over

965
01:08:18.159 --> 01:08:22.640
to Lake Seminole that night next day that immediately when

966
01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:27.880
I got back to town, there were a few people

967
01:08:27.920 --> 01:08:34.760
over there with boats, mainly friends, uh and family, and

968
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:39.279
those of us with boats started going out where his

969
01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:42.199
truck was. No, we didn't put in where his truck was.

970
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:44.600
We put it in. There was a concrete landing before that,

971
01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:51.359
which was a nicer landing that you weren't going to

972
01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:56.880
get stuck at, and uh we we. My dad and

973
01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:00.800
I went out on the lake and searched for Mike.

974
01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:05.359
He was searching and I was just lying.

975
01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:11.760
My understanding. The weather front came through and it rained

976
01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:12.479
during that evening.

977
01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:16.920
There was a storm that came through that night. I

978
01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:20.760
think we got off the lake before uh that happened.

979
01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:32.800
But you know, my dad wanted to look. I think

980
01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:35.439
we were the last ones on the lake, and my

981
01:09:35.560 --> 01:09:38.800
dad didn't want to give him. My dad loved Mike.

982
01:09:49.600 --> 01:09:52.199
That would be a good time. I take ten minutes.

983
01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:24.199
H Did you find anything that evening, Yes.

984
01:10:24.039 --> 01:10:28.920
Sir, I didn't really. I mean, I knew where Mike's

985
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:31.279
boat was, and I didn't really want to be the

986
01:10:31.319 --> 01:10:34.760
one that found it. I would rather somebody else had

987
01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:41.239
found it. But my dad was just really determined, you know.

988
01:10:41.359 --> 01:10:46.359
He he took us to a spot. I knew he

989
01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:48.279
was going to be there, but he took us to

990
01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:51.239
a spot and sure enough, there was Mike's boat. So

991
01:10:51.319 --> 01:10:58.439
we found his boat, and I think we just left it.

992
01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:01.159
We didn't touch it. We left it where it was

993
01:11:01.560 --> 01:11:05.039
and went back in and told the whoever the law

994
01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:08.479
enforcement people were there at the time. But shortly thereafter

995
01:11:08.920 --> 01:11:12.920
a pretty bad storm, rainstorm, and I think cold front

996
01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:14.479
came through that night.

997
01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:18.439
And did you go back to the lake the next day?

998
01:11:20.079 --> 01:11:26.359
M hmm, I'm sure. I'm sure I did. The next

999
01:11:26.560 --> 01:11:30.159
two months for kind of a blur for me, but yes,

1000
01:11:30.279 --> 01:11:34.159
I spent lots of time at the lake during the

1001
01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:38.840
search because I kind of wanted to monitor what was

1002
01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:43.479
going on. I wanted to put up a good, you know, front,

1003
01:11:43.560 --> 01:11:47.159
to look like I was out there looking like everybody else,

1004
01:11:49.840 --> 01:11:52.720
but I was. I was out there a lot.

1005
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:59.399
At some point A half is now on the lake.

1006
01:11:59.479 --> 01:12:00.840
Is that not a hat?

1007
01:12:01.039 --> 01:12:01.399
Yeah?

1008
01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:01.920
Yes, sir.

1009
01:12:03.800 --> 01:12:05.079
Were you the one that found that hat?

1010
01:12:06.439 --> 01:12:08.760
I was not the one that found it. I was

1011
01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:11.760
the one that put it in the water during one

1012
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:18.199
of my searches on the lake. I was well. Denise

1013
01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:21.720
and I were getting concerned that nothing else was being

1014
01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:28.600
found out there, and I I was hoping that his

1015
01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:31.000
waiters and jacket and all would be found to kind

1016
01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:35.199
of confirm that that he had drowned there. And I

1017
01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:40.199
wanted to keep the searchers in that particular area. So

1018
01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:43.359
I took a hat that was similar to a hat

1019
01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:46.399
that Mike used, which was real distinctive. It had a

1020
01:12:46.399 --> 01:12:50.039
weird looking bill on it and stuff, and when I

1021
01:12:50.119 --> 01:12:56.319
was out there with another friend of mine, I threw

1022
01:12:56.359 --> 01:12:58.319
it in the water in that area because I wanted

1023
01:12:58.319 --> 01:13:00.199
to keep the people in that area, because I wanted

1024
01:13:00.199 --> 01:13:03.439
the waiters and the jacket to be found to confirm

1025
01:13:03.479 --> 01:13:05.479
that that's where Mike was and where he went into

1026
01:13:05.479 --> 01:13:05.840
the water.

1027
01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:10.319
What was that hat? Eventually found it was and you

1028
01:13:10.359 --> 01:13:14.079
were asked to identify it. Yes, sir, you told law

1029
01:13:14.119 --> 01:13:18.199
enforcement it was Mike. Yes, sir, you brought up a

1030
01:13:18.239 --> 01:13:23.439
point about you and Denise had concerns. All right, we're

1031
01:13:23.439 --> 01:13:30.000
talking at that point following Mike's murder on the sixteen.

1032
01:13:31.399 --> 01:13:33.159
What communication did you have with Denise?

1033
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:39.359
I can't remember the first time that we talked. We

1034
01:13:39.399 --> 01:13:44.359
had pre arranged that obviously our communication needed to be minimal,

1035
01:13:45.520 --> 01:13:48.920
both by phone and in person. Obviously we weren't going

1036
01:13:48.960 --> 01:13:51.600
to be meeting up in parking lots and having sex

1037
01:13:51.680 --> 01:13:54.800
and doing all that was normal for us to be doing.

1038
01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:59.840
So we had decided that it's just too close to

1039
01:13:59.880 --> 01:14:00.439
me and.

1040
01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:02.119
Pushed back a little bit. It's a little louder now.

1041
01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:02.920
Used to me it.

1042
01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:07.600
Was like a concert. But so we had we had

1043
01:14:07.600 --> 01:14:11.119
decided ahead of time that we really needed to minimize

1044
01:14:11.119 --> 01:14:15.760
our contact. I got a lot of information about Denise

1045
01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:18.159
and what was going on with Denise through Kathy, who

1046
01:14:18.199 --> 01:14:20.680
was going over to her house and seeing her and

1047
01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:24.079
talking to her. Denise kind of sequestered herself up to

1048
01:14:24.159 --> 01:14:27.640
her bedroom and didn't want to be around a lot

1049
01:14:27.640 --> 01:14:30.920
of people, uh during that time, which was smart of

1050
01:14:31.039 --> 01:14:36.399
her to do and uh, And so I got a

1051
01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:39.239
lot of information from Kathy. But eventually you know, she

1052
01:14:39.319 --> 01:14:43.319
and I talked, and there never was a conversation that

1053
01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:45.880
was like, well, did it all go according to plan?

1054
01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:49.159
Or you know we First of all, I didn't want

1055
01:14:49.239 --> 01:14:51.319
to talk about that because that was not the plan.

1056
01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:53.600
What happened with Mike was not the plan that Denise

1057
01:14:53.600 --> 01:14:56.840
and I had come up with, and.

1058
01:14:57.520 --> 01:15:01.039
I I want to make it clear, the plan didn't

1059
01:15:01.319 --> 01:15:03.520
play out the way you wanted to, but it certainly

1060
01:15:03.560 --> 01:15:07.119
was it the plan that you and Denisa discussed actually

1061
01:15:07.119 --> 01:15:07.960
have them.

1062
01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:10.319
The plan was for his death to occur, but it

1063
01:15:10.359 --> 01:15:12.479
was not for it to occur in the way that

1064
01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:14.239
it did. I mean, the plan was for him to

1065
01:15:14.239 --> 01:15:15.800
fall in the water and for him to have a

1066
01:15:15.920 --> 01:15:21.720
chance to survive it. But obviously that's not what happened.

1067
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:27.600
And I didn't want to tell Denis that, So we

1068
01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:31.439
never had a conversation that was like, uh, did it

1069
01:15:31.479 --> 01:15:34.199
all do according to plan? But it was quite obvious

1070
01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:37.960
from the circumstances that Mike was gone, and you know,

1071
01:15:38.479 --> 01:15:41.439
she assumed that what we talked about, the plan that

1072
01:15:41.479 --> 01:15:43.720
we had made, She assumed that that was what had happened.

1073
01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:48.319
It wasn't until years later that I tried to and

1074
01:15:48.520 --> 01:15:51.159
somewhat told her that that's not what ended up happening.

1075
01:15:52.199 --> 01:15:55.039
Okay, So at some point you had heard start talking

1076
01:15:55.079 --> 01:15:57.840
again despite the distance. Is when was that.

1077
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:07.239
The the first time I'd be guessing. I mean, I

1078
01:16:07.239 --> 01:16:11.079
would say a few days before we talked. I'm sure

1079
01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:12.560
the first time we talked was just on the phone.

1080
01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:14.199
It was it was a little while before I saw

1081
01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:16.439
her in person, because I remember being kind of nervous

1082
01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:21.319
and and uh, I just knew it would be weird

1083
01:16:21.399 --> 01:16:25.920
to see her because of what we had done. I

1084
01:16:25.960 --> 01:16:27.760
just knew it would be weird to see her after that,

1085
01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:32.159
kind of to face each other after that. But but

1086
01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:36.560
you know, as the search went on, and you know,

1087
01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:38.600
long term, this thing has got back to normal, we

1088
01:16:38.720 --> 01:16:42.239
just kind of settled back into the same routines. But

1089
01:16:42.279 --> 01:16:44.399
the next thing, obviously, that we had to deal with

1090
01:16:44.560 --> 01:16:48.239
was the fact that his body wasn't being found. And

1091
01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:53.760
so the concern between she and I then became, well,

1092
01:16:53.800 --> 01:16:56.119
if his body's not found, what's gonna happen with the

1093
01:16:56.159 --> 01:16:56.960
life insurance?

1094
01:16:58.119 --> 01:17:01.439
Okay, there was a competation here and with her, Yes,

1095
01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:04.359
and what is she saying, what is your concern?

1096
01:17:05.119 --> 01:17:07.399
Well that if his body's not found, you know what's

1097
01:17:07.439 --> 01:17:09.159
going to happen. Is she going to get the money

1098
01:17:09.279 --> 01:17:09.520
or not?

1099
01:17:11.279 --> 01:17:14.920
Oh, did you and or her take any steps to

1100
01:17:15.199 --> 01:17:16.039
facilitate that.

1101
01:17:18.800 --> 01:17:24.239
To facilitate her getting the money. I was not in

1102
01:17:24.239 --> 01:17:28.039
a hurry to push that issue. I felt like we

1103
01:17:28.079 --> 01:17:31.199
needed to kind of lay low on that and not

1104
01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:35.279
appear to be, you know, the eager widow ready to

1105
01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:39.800
cash in or life insurance also she was getting at

1106
01:17:39.800 --> 01:17:43.960
that time, insurance companies were paying a ridiculous amount I

1107
01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:46.840
think eight percent they were required to pay on death

1108
01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:50.560
benefit proceeds. So she was earning eight percent as long

1109
01:17:50.600 --> 01:17:53.239
as the money sat there, which you couldn't get that

1110
01:17:53.640 --> 01:17:57.319
outside in a bank or anything like that. So I

1111
01:17:57.399 --> 01:17:59.960
knew the longer at drug out, the better it was

1112
01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:04.439
going to be. We talked about that again. It was

1113
01:18:04.479 --> 01:18:08.359
actually again it was actually my dad because he was

1114
01:18:08.399 --> 01:18:12.720
concerned about Denise. He wanted her to get her money

1115
01:18:12.760 --> 01:18:18.079
so she could pay her bills. And you know, he pushed,

1116
01:18:18.399 --> 01:18:24.640
he pushed it through the hoops that needed to happen

1117
01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:27.359
for her to end up getting the money quickly as

1118
01:18:27.399 --> 01:18:30.239
she could. But what we came to learn, what he

1119
01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:32.000
came to learn, what we all came to learn, was

1120
01:18:32.039 --> 01:18:33.960
she was going to have to get a death certificate

1121
01:18:34.039 --> 01:18:40.359
issued by a judge through a court. So probably my

1122
01:18:40.479 --> 01:18:45.239
dad or me hoped her up with an attorney, Kurt Hunter,

1123
01:18:46.359 --> 01:18:52.960
and she talked with Kurt about what needed to be done,

1124
01:18:53.119 --> 01:18:55.640
and I think basically she had to file a petition

1125
01:18:56.359 --> 01:18:59.159
with a court stating everything that happened, talking about what

1126
01:18:59.199 --> 01:19:01.920
a wonderful marriage she had with Mike. There was no

1127
01:19:01.960 --> 01:19:06.560
reason for him to run off on her. I can't

1128
01:19:06.560 --> 01:19:08.159
remember what all had to go on the petition, but

1129
01:19:08.199 --> 01:19:13.239
we talked about that ahead of time, and she ended

1130
01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:16.520
up following a petition and it was granted and she

1131
01:19:16.600 --> 01:19:18.520
was issued a death certificate, so she was able to

1132
01:19:18.560 --> 01:19:19.119
get the money.

1133
01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:22.479
Were there any conversations about what.

1134
01:19:22.479 --> 01:19:26.960
Had happened about what had happened specifically with Mike?

1135
01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:34.000
Yes, no, yea. At some point law enforcement takes other

1136
01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:40.199
looks in the cases and interviews people. Did y'all have

1137
01:19:40.239 --> 01:19:41.520
any conversations about that?

1138
01:19:43.319 --> 01:19:47.920
Well, this was years later, and a lot transpired in

1139
01:19:47.960 --> 01:19:52.000
between Mike's death and law enforcement getting involved. I think

1140
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:58.880
it was three years later maybe, But the first, the

1141
01:19:58.920 --> 01:20:00.880
first thing that happened with me was I just got

1142
01:20:00.920 --> 01:20:04.920
a call, uh from a deputy. I don't remember if

1143
01:20:04.960 --> 01:20:09.159
it was a Jackson County sheriff officer or an investigator

1144
01:20:09.199 --> 01:20:12.079
with FDL. But I got a call from somebody and

1145
01:20:12.079 --> 01:20:14.079
they wanted to talk to me about Mike Williams in

1146
01:20:14.119 --> 01:20:19.159
the case. And I agreed, and I went into fd

1147
01:20:19.319 --> 01:20:23.399
L E h On Reckins Roy there and interviewed with

1148
01:20:23.560 --> 01:20:28.359
two gentlemen there, and it became quite clear to me

1149
01:20:28.560 --> 01:20:34.199
during that interview that they were suspicious of what happened,

1150
01:20:34.359 --> 01:20:37.359
and not only that, they were suspicious of me and Denise.

1151
01:20:39.159 --> 01:20:45.239
And I think even after I left that interview, I

1152
01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:50.960
called her immediately and was freaking out, you know that

1153
01:20:50.960 --> 01:20:53.960
that this was going on, and uh.

1154
01:20:53.960 --> 01:20:55.840
Right there, so you got and he does. Then you

1155
01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:57.319
mentioned that there were things, a lot of things that

1156
01:20:57.399 --> 01:21:01.079
happened prior to that, and this is a approssimately two

1157
01:21:01.079 --> 01:21:02.920
thousand and three, two thousand and four or something like that.

1158
01:21:03.199 --> 01:21:05.520
Yeah, sir, right, So.

1159
01:21:05.600 --> 01:21:09.039
Prior to that occurring, had you and Denise talked about

1160
01:21:09.039 --> 01:21:12.359
a possibility of what you would do if law enforcement

1161
01:21:12.399 --> 01:21:13.479
started investigating this?

1162
01:21:15.119 --> 01:21:17.520
Yeah, I mean we basically weren't going to say anything.

1163
01:21:17.960 --> 01:21:20.760
We had the way that we the word that we

1164
01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:23.880
put on it was we had an agreement that she

1165
01:21:23.960 --> 01:21:26.399
would never say anything about me and I would never

1166
01:21:26.399 --> 01:21:30.159
say anything about her, because we knew or we felt

1167
01:21:30.239 --> 01:21:34.760
like that as long as neither one of us talked that,

1168
01:21:34.960 --> 01:21:40.640
nobody would ever, you know, find out what happened. So

1169
01:21:40.720 --> 01:21:48.600
we we called it our agreement basically, and and we

1170
01:21:48.600 --> 01:21:52.199
were probably pretty arrogantly confident in that agreement.

1171
01:21:52.439 --> 01:21:57.279
I guess, did you and her take any steps to

1172
01:21:57.359 --> 01:22:04.439
ensure the fact that wire cat or having a conversation

1173
01:22:04.560 --> 01:22:07.279
with her code words, co signals, things like that.

1174
01:22:08.680 --> 01:22:14.720
We we didn't get that way until after law enforcement

1175
01:22:14.800 --> 01:22:21.000
started looking into things. The other thing that that made

1176
01:22:21.079 --> 01:22:27.319
us really paranoid was Denise. At first, Denise was allowing Cheryl,

1177
01:22:27.479 --> 01:22:32.560
Mike's mom Uh to see Annsley and taken Annsley, Mike,

1178
01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:36.600
and Denise's daughter Hansley, out to cheryl grandma Cheryl's house.

1179
01:22:37.439 --> 01:22:41.720
And on one of those trips out to Cheryl's house,

1180
01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:46.239
Denise found a notebook that Cheryl had and she had

1181
01:22:46.239 --> 01:22:51.840
written her suspicions about Denise and me and what had

1182
01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:54.119
happened with Mike, and and when Cheryl was in another

1183
01:22:54.199 --> 01:22:57.399
room or something, Denise read that and came back and

1184
01:22:57.520 --> 01:22:59.840
told me what she had read, and really freaked out

1185
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:05.880
about it, and at that point didn't want UH Cheryl

1186
01:23:05.960 --> 01:23:11.279
to didn't want any contact with Cheryl really. But between

1187
01:23:11.359 --> 01:23:16.239
that and law enforcement getting involved, we became very paranoid

1188
01:23:16.399 --> 01:23:20.920
about UH being monitored. So we agreed and talked about

1189
01:23:20.960 --> 01:23:22.600
we weren't going to talk about anything on the phones

1190
01:23:22.640 --> 01:23:27.319
anymore when we were worried about our cars being bugged,

1191
01:23:27.319 --> 01:23:30.600
our houses being bugged. We had hand signals that we

1192
01:23:30.600 --> 01:23:35.680
would use if we needed to talk about something related

1193
01:23:35.680 --> 01:23:42.800
to Mike or law enforcement. One of them was a

1194
01:23:42.880 --> 01:23:46.560
see for Cheryl and then the other one was this

1195
01:23:48.159 --> 01:23:56.880
like jail bars. So when we did that, we knew

1196
01:23:56.920 --> 01:23:58.840
that one of the other of us had something to

1197
01:23:58.840 --> 01:24:01.840
talk about. And you would usually go there was a

1198
01:24:01.880 --> 01:24:05.399
park next to There is a park next to Denise's

1199
01:24:05.439 --> 01:24:09.279
house along Mixed Hookie Road. We would go out to

1200
01:24:09.279 --> 01:24:11.760
that park and go way out in a field on

1201
01:24:11.800 --> 01:24:14.880
a bench, and we would leave our cars in the vehicle,

1202
01:24:14.920 --> 01:24:17.920
wouldn't take them. We would leave our phones in the vehicle,

1203
01:24:18.640 --> 01:24:20.199
make sure we didn't have a phone on us. We

1204
01:24:20.279 --> 01:24:23.359
were we were very concerned that we were being watched

1205
01:24:23.439 --> 01:24:25.119
or monitored by law enforcement.

1206
01:24:26.680 --> 01:24:30.159
Now backing up again, prior to the interview, You're still

1207
01:24:30.159 --> 01:24:35.760
married two thousand to Kathy and you start your relations

1208
01:24:35.760 --> 01:24:39.479
back with Denise. At some point, did your marriage with

1209
01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:42.479
Kathy start falling Park, Yes.

1210
01:24:42.399 --> 01:24:52.039
Sir, I mean it had started. It had started, you know,

1211
01:24:52.119 --> 01:24:54.720
when Denise and I started our family in ninety seven.

1212
01:24:54.800 --> 01:25:01.399
But after after Mike was gone, actually, Kathy and I

1213
01:25:01.439 --> 01:25:07.000
spent even more time with Denise, the three of us,

1214
01:25:07.039 --> 01:25:09.079
doing a lot of things just because Denise and I

1215
01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:17.039
wanted to be together, and and yeah, things just got

1216
01:25:17.119 --> 01:25:22.159
worse and worse. I mean, Kathy, you know, told me later,

1217
01:25:22.279 --> 01:25:23.960
you know that after Mike was gone, it was like

1218
01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:26.279
there was no reason for me and Denise to be

1219
01:25:26.399 --> 01:25:28.680
apart from each other. She made comments like that, but

1220
01:25:30.159 --> 01:25:33.680
I think she was suspicious of us, you know, all along.

1221
01:25:33.760 --> 01:25:38.560
But I never admitted to Kathy that Denise and I

1222
01:25:38.600 --> 01:25:42.560
were having an affair, obviously, and that was just kind

1223
01:25:42.560 --> 01:25:45.720
of basically the next step in the plan. But it

1224
01:25:45.760 --> 01:25:49.359
couldn't be right off because that would look bad. So

1225
01:25:49.439 --> 01:25:53.760
Kathy and I ended up staying together. I think our

1226
01:25:53.760 --> 01:25:57.439
divorce wasn't finalized until two thousand and four.

1227
01:25:58.199 --> 01:26:03.760
I believe at some point did you and Kathy separate

1228
01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:08.359
prior to the Warce yes, sir. At some point, was

1229
01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:14.039
there a situation where you backtracked essentially and started and

1230
01:26:14.119 --> 01:26:16.359
made a pleasure to try and get back with Kathy

1231
01:26:18.600 --> 01:26:19.439
and not go over it.

1232
01:26:20.399 --> 01:26:24.560
Yes, sir, there, what was that about. There was a

1233
01:26:24.560 --> 01:26:30.880
lot that led up to that. As as you said,

1234
01:26:30.960 --> 01:26:38.960
we were separated, So Kathy and I were separated. I

1235
01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:43.640
had a house to myself. There was the incident that

1236
01:26:43.680 --> 01:26:47.079
you talked to that we talked about earlier with Angela Stafford,

1237
01:26:47.279 --> 01:26:52.720
where Denise walked in on Angela and I in my bedroom.

1238
01:26:52.760 --> 01:26:58.039
After that happened, Denise was furious and she you know,

1239
01:26:58.359 --> 01:27:04.000
we had a briefcase full of me mentos, cards, notes, letters, pictures, videos,

1240
01:27:04.319 --> 01:27:07.359
all sorts of things. She left my house and went

1241
01:27:07.399 --> 01:27:11.119
to her house and burned it all. She was very

1242
01:27:11.159 --> 01:27:14.359
angry with me. I didn't know it at the time,

1243
01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:18.199
but she actually was having sex with a guy that

1244
01:27:18.359 --> 01:27:24.720
she worked with at work, and I think when she

1245
01:27:24.880 --> 01:27:30.520
caught me with it, I'm sorry, yes, sir. And so

1246
01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:34.720
when she caught me with Angelou, I think she decided

1247
01:27:34.760 --> 01:27:38.359
at that point, well, I'm gonna drop Brian and pursue

1248
01:27:38.560 --> 01:27:48.359
a relationship with mister Bunker, and so things just basically

1249
01:27:48.399 --> 01:27:54.640
like went to hell with me and Denise, And long

1250
01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:57.399
story short, I mean, I just realized what the disaster

1251
01:27:57.479 --> 01:28:00.319
of my life was at that point. And Denny and

1252
01:28:00.319 --> 01:28:04.079
I had well, we hadn't broken up. She had basically

1253
01:28:04.199 --> 01:28:09.960
dumped me for Chuck, and I found myself at church

1254
01:28:10.039 --> 01:28:16.119
one day on July fourth, heard a sermon about freedom.

1255
01:28:16.159 --> 01:28:18.000
You know, I felt like I was a slave to

1256
01:28:18.039 --> 01:28:21.880
all that I had been living for. You know, in

1257
01:28:21.920 --> 01:28:26.239
my relationship with Denise and I had a I guess

1258
01:28:26.279 --> 01:28:30.640
you would call it a spiritual awakening or conversion, however

1259
01:28:30.640 --> 01:28:37.279
you want to tournament. Eventually, the relationship with Denise and

1260
01:28:37.319 --> 01:28:42.840
mister Bunker went haywire in South They had their legal

1261
01:28:42.880 --> 01:28:43.880
issues with each other.

1262
01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:50.000
Was there's an incident between you and mister Buker.

1263
01:28:51.159 --> 01:28:55.359
That happened prior to me going to church that day?

1264
01:28:55.399 --> 01:28:59.279
But yes, sir, uh. The way that I found out

1265
01:28:59.319 --> 01:29:07.399
about and Chuck was she left town with him. I

1266
01:29:07.439 --> 01:29:12.000
went up to Atlanta on a trip trip together and

1267
01:29:12.239 --> 01:29:14.079
I found out from one of her sisters that they

1268
01:29:14.079 --> 01:29:18.920
were in Atlanta, and I was not happy. I was angry,

1269
01:29:20.479 --> 01:29:25.319
and I wanted to confront her, you know, because we

1270
01:29:25.479 --> 01:29:28.880
had been through a lot, done a lot for each other.

1271
01:29:29.239 --> 01:29:33.640
I mean, I gave up half of my son's life

1272
01:29:33.680 --> 01:29:41.159
to be with her, you know, killed her husband. Uh uh,

1273
01:29:41.199 --> 01:29:44.199
and we've done a lot to be together, and then

1274
01:29:44.239 --> 01:29:50.640
for her to turn around and uh go uh you know,

1275
01:29:50.920 --> 01:29:55.279
sleep with Chuck didn't make me happy. So I found

1276
01:29:55.319 --> 01:29:59.840
out they were in Buckhead in Atlanta, and I drove

1277
01:30:00.159 --> 01:30:03.600
there to confront them, confront her. I didn't really care

1278
01:30:03.640 --> 01:30:07.039
about him so much, but I ended up finding I

1279
01:30:07.159 --> 01:30:09.319
ended up sitting in a lobby in a hotel and

1280
01:30:09.439 --> 01:30:15.600
they came struggling by uh together, and you know, I

1281
01:30:15.680 --> 01:30:20.600
confronted them, and we ended up going outside and having

1282
01:30:20.640 --> 01:30:27.640
a long argument conversation uh out next to the street

1283
01:30:28.760 --> 01:30:33.399
in Buckhead. She I wanted Chuck gone. I didn't want

1284
01:30:33.439 --> 01:30:36.199
to deal with Chuck, So my main focus was you

1285
01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:42.640
need to get rid of Chuck. She uh got rid

1286
01:30:42.680 --> 01:30:46.600
of him, got him to leave us alone, and she

1287
01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:53.000
and I spend the night together in the hotel. And

1288
01:30:55.760 --> 01:30:57.159
I didn't know it at the time, but she was

1289
01:30:57.199 --> 01:31:01.119
just kind of placating me when Uck was I think

1290
01:31:01.520 --> 01:31:05.079
got a room down the hallway in the hotel. I

1291
01:31:05.159 --> 01:31:14.800
didn't really leave, but so we had that incident and

1292
01:31:14.840 --> 01:31:18.560
Denise told me later that the way that she got

1293
01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:24.359
rid of Chuck was m She told him that if

1294
01:31:24.359 --> 01:31:27.239
he didn't leave it, I could have her turned in

1295
01:31:27.319 --> 01:31:30.880
for insurance fraud, which I thought was just it blew

1296
01:31:30.920 --> 01:31:34.479
me mourning that she told him that. I couldn't believe

1297
01:31:34.960 --> 01:31:37.680
that she admitted that to another party.

1298
01:31:39.600 --> 01:31:41.399
Did you hear say that? Or that just what she

1299
01:31:41.399 --> 01:31:41.680
told me?

1300
01:31:41.960 --> 01:31:44.960
She told me this later and we argued about it later.

1301
01:31:47.680 --> 01:31:52.720
So the incident with Chuck happened, and I drove back

1302
01:31:52.760 --> 01:31:57.199
to Tallahassee, and I was just done. I was just spit.

1303
01:31:57.720 --> 01:32:00.880
And that's what kind of led me to kind of

1304
01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:04.119
I guess I thought at the time was rock bottom.

1305
01:32:04.119 --> 01:32:06.039
I didn't know I had so many rock bottoms ahead

1306
01:32:06.039 --> 01:32:10.359
of me. But at that point I ended up in

1307
01:32:10.479 --> 01:32:15.800
church and and uh kind of had a spiritual reawakening.

1308
01:32:16.000 --> 01:32:25.159
And over the next few months, I decided that I

1309
01:32:25.199 --> 01:32:30.279
wanted to try to reconcile with Kathy. I still loved Denise.

1310
01:32:30.319 --> 01:32:34.439
I still wanted to be with Denise. Eventually, Denise and

1311
01:32:34.560 --> 01:32:40.880
Chuck's relationship imploded and they had their you know, legal

1312
01:32:40.920 --> 01:32:45.640
issues and whatnot, and uh so they broke up. My

1313
01:32:45.720 --> 01:32:49.159
dad actually helped Denise. Uh through all of that.

1314
01:32:51.000 --> 01:32:54.239
So they break up. You try to get back with Kathy.

1315
01:32:55.279 --> 01:33:02.880
They broke up, and in Denise and I Denise kind

1316
01:33:02.880 --> 01:33:07.840
of had her own spiritual awakening and this, I know

1317
01:33:07.920 --> 01:33:09.079
this sounds all screwy, but.

1318
01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:13.680
We wanted to be together still. But we both agreed

1319
01:33:14.239 --> 01:33:16.039
that the right thing for me to do was to

1320
01:33:16.079 --> 01:33:19.119
try to get with Kathy. And if Kathy decided that

1321
01:33:19.239 --> 01:33:21.800
wasn't gonna happen, then we were free to be together.

1322
01:33:24.760 --> 01:33:28.520
And so, yes, I tried to reconcile with Kathy.

1323
01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:31.159
Did that work out?

1324
01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:33.159
Not well?

1325
01:33:34.640 --> 01:33:35.960
Eventually you and Kathy end up in.

1326
01:33:35.960 --> 01:33:40.640
A divorce, Yes, sir, we ended up getting divorced, and

1327
01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:48.600
so we're free to be together. Mike, when was the

1328
01:33:58.880 --> 01:34:01.239
I'm this is terror, but I don't remember when it

1329
01:34:01.319 --> 01:34:03.880
was finalized. We had a long separation. I don't remember

1330
01:34:03.880 --> 01:34:05.600
when the divorce itself was finalized.

1331
01:34:06.319 --> 01:34:08.760
At some point, did you and Denise start becoming public

1332
01:34:08.800 --> 01:34:09.319
with your dating?

1333
01:34:10.159 --> 01:34:15.000
Yes, sir. After the divorce was finalized and we decided

1334
01:34:15.119 --> 01:34:22.039
enough time had passed from Mike's death, we we decided

1335
01:34:22.079 --> 01:34:27.039
it was okay for us to gradually start dating. And uh,

1336
01:34:27.840 --> 01:34:29.560
you know, we talked about it with a lot of people.

1337
01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:32.560
There were some people that took it well. Uh, there

1338
01:34:32.560 --> 01:34:36.159
were some people like her family and her dad who

1339
01:34:36.640 --> 01:34:41.640
took it horribly. But we did start dating.

1340
01:34:43.359 --> 01:34:44.800
Eventually you got married.

1341
01:34:45.079 --> 01:34:48.640
And then we got married in two thousand and five.

1342
01:34:50.479 --> 01:34:54.520
We were still concerned about the law enforcement side of it,

1343
01:34:54.640 --> 01:34:57.600
but as time passed and nothing happened, we became less

1344
01:34:57.640 --> 01:34:58.920
and less concerned about it.

1345
01:35:01.399 --> 01:35:04.640
You say that you've still concerned a job. Communications between

1346
01:35:04.640 --> 01:35:08.319
each other on well what will you do with law forcement?

1347
01:35:08.359 --> 01:35:13.920
Every interview, right, you know, things would come up in

1348
01:35:13.960 --> 01:35:18.720
the media. We would see things online or in the news. Cheryl,

1349
01:35:20.600 --> 01:35:27.239
you know, never give up and kept pushing things. And

1350
01:35:27.399 --> 01:35:30.119
so from time to time that issue would be raised.

1351
01:35:32.479 --> 01:35:36.199
And I always wanted to talk about things a lot

1352
01:35:36.239 --> 01:35:38.039
more than Denista and East did not like to talk

1353
01:35:38.039 --> 01:35:44.720
about anything related to that usually. But we you know,

1354
01:35:44.800 --> 01:35:47.600
we would typically not talk in the house. We would

1355
01:35:47.640 --> 01:35:51.640
typically talk you know, out at Lake LA or a

1356
01:35:51.680 --> 01:35:54.199
public place or whatever where we felt like we weren't

1357
01:35:54.199 --> 01:36:00.600
being monitored. Even at that point, And.

1358
01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:03.600
Did y'all have an agreement to pat the agreement not

1359
01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:04.760
to talk to law enforcement?

1360
01:36:05.800 --> 01:36:10.640
Yes, I mean we promised each other that me and

1361
01:36:10.720 --> 01:36:16.119
one of us would ever say anything, because we knew

1362
01:36:17.359 --> 01:36:20.279
the only way that we felt like the only way

1363
01:36:20.319 --> 01:36:22.800
to would get anything would be if one of us talked.

1364
01:36:24.359 --> 01:36:29.000
And I mean I was concerned about Denise, if she

1365
01:36:29.079 --> 01:36:32.319
ever got under that pressure, whether she would hold up

1366
01:36:32.439 --> 01:36:36.279
to it or not. You know, Kathy actually warned me.

1367
01:36:37.119 --> 01:36:42.720
I think the first time I heard Kathy talk about it,

1368
01:36:43.960 --> 01:36:47.439
she said, you know, Kathy was trying to get me

1369
01:36:47.479 --> 01:36:50.960
to talk, but basically she said, you know, you can't

1370
01:36:50.960 --> 01:36:52.840
trust Denis, and she'll throw you under the bus the

1371
01:36:52.840 --> 01:36:53.920
first chance she gets.

1372
01:36:54.840 --> 01:36:56.880
Would be fair to say that you made sure just

1373
01:36:56.960 --> 01:37:00.560
to her, that being Denise, that you had not anybody

1374
01:37:00.640 --> 01:37:04.680
yelped about this particular case, Yes, sir, And she made

1375
01:37:04.800 --> 01:37:06.960
sure to you that she had not told anybody.

1376
01:37:07.359 --> 01:37:10.560
The only person I knew of was was mister Bonker.

1377
01:37:10.760 --> 01:37:13.119
But you know, she didn't say that Mike was murdered

1378
01:37:13.199 --> 01:37:16.119
or anything like that. She just supposed to right.

1379
01:37:18.760 --> 01:37:18.840
Now.

1380
01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:23.840
In twenty sixteen, you were there was the kidnapping arrest, yes, sir,

1381
01:37:25.199 --> 01:37:32.560
And following that, you confess to the murder the Mike correct, Yes, sir,

1382
01:37:32.880 --> 01:37:36.039
you read led law enforcement to his remains, yes, sir.

1383
01:37:39.399 --> 01:37:43.359
The conversations with Denise, they leading up to the murder

1384
01:37:44.239 --> 01:37:47.319
the day currently on County for the most part, Yes, sir.

1385
01:37:48.159 --> 01:37:51.119
The conversations with Denise following the murder where the agreement

1386
01:37:51.239 --> 01:37:54.960
was never to talk to law enforcement that occurrently Ancunty, Florida, Yes, sir,

1387
01:37:56.079 --> 01:37:58.920
whenever she set up or alibi to stay at home

1388
01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:01.560
the phone calls that in the Unikan, Florida, Yes, sir,

1389
01:38:02.760 --> 01:38:06.119
talk a lot about the niece Winchester or Williams formerly

1390
01:38:06.159 --> 01:38:09.560
Winchester DC here in the courtroom today, Yes, sir, Can

1391
01:38:09.640 --> 01:38:11.439
you please point or an indicating our book flow.

1392
01:38:11.479 --> 01:38:19.640
There an article of clothing, the Peak sweaters, so.

1393
01:38:19.680 --> 01:38:24.800
There it is. What a piece of shit this guy is,

1394
01:38:25.079 --> 01:38:29.279
total betrayal of his friend in so many ways, and

1395
01:38:29.359 --> 01:38:31.840
the fact that he got a deal on this it

1396
01:38:32.079 --> 01:38:36.159
is absolutely sickening to me. But on the other side

1397
01:38:36.159 --> 01:38:40.880
of that was he held all the cards, folks. Again,

1398
01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:43.800
one of the rare times you will ever hear me

1399
01:38:43.880 --> 01:38:47.319
say a plea deal sort of made sense to me.

1400
01:38:47.680 --> 01:38:50.000
It was really the only way they were going to

1401
01:38:50.079 --> 01:38:55.399
find the remains for Mike's sweet mother to have that burial,

1402
01:38:55.560 --> 01:38:57.840
and luck have they not made that deal. They had

1403
01:38:57.920 --> 01:39:02.319
no freaking evidence of anything, and they couldn't have proved

1404
01:39:02.359 --> 01:39:06.079
it in court, probably would have never found that body.

1405
01:39:06.840 --> 01:39:09.920
But there's absolutely a part of me that is like, Man,

1406
01:39:10.159 --> 01:39:13.000
fuck that guy and fuck that deal. Now, a couple

1407
01:39:13.039 --> 01:39:16.640
of things that I found interesting in his testimony that

1408
01:39:16.720 --> 01:39:21.479
you just heard. First, Denise was never told how Mike

1409
01:39:21.680 --> 01:39:25.319
was killed, only that he was killed. And as much

1410
01:39:25.359 --> 01:39:27.800
as I have to say it, that was a smart

1411
01:39:27.880 --> 01:39:31.199
move on the part of both of them to agree,

1412
01:39:31.720 --> 01:39:34.960
I guess not to tell her how it occurred, because

1413
01:39:34.960 --> 01:39:38.520
it leaves her without any information on how Mike died,

1414
01:39:38.680 --> 01:39:43.479
where his body was, etc. So if she's placed under

1415
01:39:43.600 --> 01:39:47.239
a lot of detector test and she was asked if

1416
01:39:47.239 --> 01:39:51.000
she knows anything about Mike's death, she can honestly say

1417
01:39:51.399 --> 01:39:54.600
no and it would register her as telling the truth.

1418
01:39:54.800 --> 01:39:57.800
If they asked her if she knows where the body is,

1419
01:39:57.920 --> 01:40:01.520
she could honestly say no and it would register as

1420
01:40:01.560 --> 01:40:03.920
her telling the truth. As much as I hate to

1421
01:40:03.920 --> 01:40:06.479
say it was a smart move, it really was a

1422
01:40:06.520 --> 01:40:07.720
smart move to do that.

1423
01:40:07.920 --> 01:40:08.239
Now.

1424
01:40:08.279 --> 01:40:12.800
Also, what I think is likely in her twisted little

1425
01:40:12.840 --> 01:40:18.840
mind is she could possibly compartmentalize better and walk around

1426
01:40:18.960 --> 01:40:24.560
like nothing ever happened because she lacked those actual details.

1427
01:40:24.880 --> 01:40:27.239
This woman's so crazy she could probably trick her mind

1428
01:40:27.239 --> 01:40:29.119
in the same one. I don't know if he killed him,

1429
01:40:29.600 --> 01:40:33.479
he may still be alive. And how about how Mike

1430
01:40:33.680 --> 01:40:37.479
was opening up about not having sex with his wife

1431
01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:42.159
to Brian Winchester on those hunting trips, as Brian testified

1432
01:40:42.239 --> 01:40:46.039
to his frustration over that, and this asshole knew why

1433
01:40:46.439 --> 01:40:50.000
it was because he was adding sex the whole time

1434
01:40:50.279 --> 01:40:53.439
with her. Just makes you say wow. So now you

1435
01:40:53.560 --> 01:40:56.880
know all the details of the murder. I'm not going

1436
01:40:57.000 --> 01:41:00.800
to rehash those, there's no point hopefully listen to all

1437
01:41:00.840 --> 01:41:03.640
of that. And you know exactly how all this went down.

1438
01:41:04.640 --> 01:41:07.039
But what happened to Denise.

1439
01:41:11.840 --> 01:41:12.079
Jim?

1440
01:41:12.079 --> 01:41:14.680
Did you see what happened in Texas today? Wait before

1441
01:41:14.720 --> 01:41:16.960
you tell me that, let me tell you what happened

1442
01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:19.079
in New York. It cannot be as crazy as the

1443
01:41:19.079 --> 01:41:21.760
case I told you about yesterday in Louisiana. You know what,

1444
01:41:22.119 --> 01:41:24.960
we should do a podcast about it, and with that

1445
01:41:25.279 --> 01:41:28.359
we did. Crime War Weekly covers the crime news headlines

1446
01:41:28.399 --> 01:41:31.840
that have dominated the week. We cover trending crimes from

1447
01:41:31.880 --> 01:41:35.800
all over the country and even sprinkle in a few globally.

1448
01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:38.680
Crime War Weekly is available now wherever you listen to

1449
01:41:38.720 --> 01:41:42.800
your podcasts, simply by searching Crime War Weekly or clicking

1450
01:41:42.880 --> 01:41:53.119
the link in the description of this podcast. Well, after

1451
01:41:53.199 --> 01:41:58.560
a month long trial, in February of twenty nineteen, she

1452
01:41:58.800 --> 01:42:04.640
was found guilty. She subsequently was sentenced to life in prison. Now,

1453
01:42:04.680 --> 01:42:09.960
five months later, her daughter Ainsley was awarded all of

1454
01:42:10.000 --> 01:42:14.000
her father's assets in a deal, and that enabled Denise

1455
01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:18.359
to avoid insurance fraud charges. Now, part of that deal

1456
01:42:18.680 --> 01:42:22.920
was that Ainsley could not use any of that money

1457
01:42:23.039 --> 01:42:25.680
to cover legal fees for her mother. And you have

1458
01:42:25.760 --> 01:42:29.840
to remember this time, Ainsley is nineteen years old. It

1459
01:42:29.880 --> 01:42:32.960
took that long to solve this case. So her mother

1460
01:42:33.079 --> 01:42:36.239
had raised her whole life. I'm sure she loved her mother,

1461
01:42:36.359 --> 01:42:39.279
and they were concerned if she gets all these assets

1462
01:42:39.399 --> 01:42:42.640
from Mike Williams, she may use them to help with

1463
01:42:42.720 --> 01:42:45.960
her mother's legal defense. But that was part of the deal.

1464
01:42:46.039 --> 01:42:49.000
If you get the assets, you cannot do that. So

1465
01:42:49.159 --> 01:42:52.960
that's it, right, She's convicted, life in prison. Story over. Well,

1466
01:42:53.039 --> 01:42:55.720
y'all know me better than that. It's never that way

1467
01:42:56.319 --> 01:42:59.000
with the stories that I bring you. So get this.

1468
01:42:59.479 --> 01:43:04.159
The year or after Denise's conviction, she appeals it, which

1469
01:43:04.359 --> 01:43:07.720
when you're sentenced to life. This always happens an appeal,

1470
01:43:07.840 --> 01:43:12.399
is no surprise. Her attorney argued, there was no evidence

1471
01:43:12.520 --> 01:43:16.640
she was involved in the commission of the murder, and

1472
01:43:16.680 --> 01:43:18.800
you have to have that for it to be a

1473
01:43:18.840 --> 01:43:22.479
first degree murdered conviction, which she was convicted of in

1474
01:43:22.520 --> 01:43:25.600
addition to conspiracy. And in the shock of a century,

1475
01:43:25.640 --> 01:43:30.800
the appeals court agreed with her attorney. They overturned the

1476
01:43:31.079 --> 01:43:34.920
murder conviction in the first degree. Now, they did uphold

1477
01:43:35.000 --> 01:43:38.960
the conspiracy charge, which, when I stepped back from my

1478
01:43:39.319 --> 01:43:43.720
personal feelings on this case, conspiracy, she's one hundred percent

1479
01:43:43.960 --> 01:43:48.359
guilty of All that means is that you conspired on

1480
01:43:48.399 --> 01:43:52.640
this murder before or after, so you planned the murder.

1481
01:43:52.680 --> 01:43:55.760
But I would also argue she assisted in the commission

1482
01:43:56.000 --> 01:43:59.640
of the murder because she knew the day that Brian

1483
01:43:59.800 --> 01:44:03.159
was going to kill Mike, but she did nothing to

1484
01:44:03.239 --> 01:44:06.399
stop it. She could have stopped Mike and said, no,

1485
01:44:06.680 --> 01:44:10.079
don't go because Brian's gonna show up and he's gonna

1486
01:44:10.159 --> 01:44:12.760
kill you. She didn't do that. To me, that makes

1487
01:44:12.800 --> 01:44:16.960
her culpable in the actual murder, not just the planning

1488
01:44:17.039 --> 01:44:19.520
of it. That's just my view. I'd love to hear

1489
01:44:19.680 --> 01:44:23.640
your view on that. So this goes all the way

1490
01:44:23.840 --> 01:44:26.960
to the Florida Supreme Court because obviously a lot of

1491
01:44:26.960 --> 01:44:31.680
people in Florida were pissed when that first degree murder

1492
01:44:31.800 --> 01:44:35.399
charge got overturned. That means no life in prison. So

1493
01:44:35.479 --> 01:44:40.239
in April twenty twenty four, the Florida Supreme Court declined

1494
01:44:40.279 --> 01:44:43.840
to hear the case from the state. Now essentially that

1495
01:44:44.000 --> 01:44:48.560
means they agree with the appeals court. So the state lost.

1496
01:44:48.760 --> 01:44:52.439
So all told, here here's what both of them ended

1497
01:44:52.520 --> 01:44:56.640
up with. Denise Williams got a thirty year sentence for

1498
01:44:56.720 --> 01:45:01.039
the conspiracy to commit murder charge, making her seventy eight

1499
01:45:01.159 --> 01:45:05.680
years old when she's released, and considering the facts of

1500
01:45:05.720 --> 01:45:09.199
this case, I would say she would not be granted

1501
01:45:09.399 --> 01:45:13.720
an early release, though time's gonna tell on that. Now.

1502
01:45:13.760 --> 01:45:18.279
Brian Winchester, who actually killed this guy, with the sweet

1503
01:45:18.319 --> 01:45:21.439
deal that he got, he's gonna be released at the

1504
01:45:21.520 --> 01:45:24.560
age of sixty five. He's still gonna have some life

1505
01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:25.239
left in him.

1506
01:45:25.399 --> 01:45:26.479
What a wild case.

1507
01:45:26.720 --> 01:45:31.079
And for those curious about Ainslie, Mike's only daughter, who

1508
01:45:31.439 --> 01:45:35.119
sadly lost her dad at just eighteen months old. She

1509
01:45:35.279 --> 01:45:38.319
was nineteen, as I said, when her mother was convicted.

1510
01:45:38.800 --> 01:45:41.720
She didn't let that stop her from being the woman

1511
01:45:42.399 --> 01:45:45.319
her father would be proud of. She actually got her

1512
01:45:45.399 --> 01:45:49.520
bachelor's in business from Florida State. She got a master's

1513
01:45:49.600 --> 01:45:53.840
in mass communication from the University of Florida, and today

1514
01:45:54.039 --> 01:45:59.880
she works for a public relations firm in the Tallahassee area.

1515
01:46:00.520 --> 01:46:03.720
For the young ones listening, don't ever let anyone tell

1516
01:46:03.760 --> 01:46:08.800
you your circumstances define you. This poor young lady had

1517
01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:12.560
everything going against her in life, losing her father so

1518
01:46:12.720 --> 01:46:17.520
early on, all the shit that surrounded that, the after

1519
01:46:17.640 --> 01:46:21.439
effects of it, the marriage to her father's best friend,

1520
01:46:21.479 --> 01:46:23.640
which I'm sure as a little girl even she thought

1521
01:46:23.760 --> 01:46:27.479
was kind of fucked up. She managed to still make

1522
01:46:27.680 --> 01:46:31.720
something of her life. So this young lady surpassed all

1523
01:46:31.760 --> 01:46:35.199
the odds, in my opinion, and that is a rap

1524
01:46:35.399 --> 01:46:39.479
of fatal fortune. I guess you could say subject number one,

1525
01:46:39.720 --> 01:46:43.960
Mike Williams, I'll bring you another one real soon. Thank

1526
01:46:44.000 --> 01:46:47.760
you so much for listening. Check out the Patreonpatreon dot

1527
01:46:47.800 --> 01:46:51.239
com slash exposed podcast files. We put all kinds of

1528
01:46:51.279 --> 01:46:53.640
stuff up there. There's a lot of benefits and it's

1529
01:46:53.720 --> 01:46:57.560
really the main cusp for what supports this show. So

1530
01:46:57.600 --> 01:47:01.279
we could really use your support on there. Please consider it.

1531
01:47:01.279 --> 01:47:03.720
It's like two dollars and fifty cents a week for

1532
01:47:03.840 --> 01:47:07.520
that first tier and for that you get commercial free

1533
01:47:07.560 --> 01:47:11.760
early releases and bonus episodes, so check that out. I

1534
01:47:11.920 --> 01:47:16.520
just dropped a bonus episode just yesterday from this recording,

1535
01:47:16.720 --> 01:47:21.279
and that was on Mindy McCready who had a tragic life.

1536
01:47:21.319 --> 01:47:25.640
And only Patreon members get those bonus episodes, so please

1537
01:47:25.800 --> 01:47:31.399
consider that. And until next time for exposed scandalous files

1538
01:47:31.399 --> 01:47:35.760
of the elite, I'm your host, Jim Chapman. Much love,