July 22, 2025

Fatal Fortune: The Murder of Mike Williams Part 2

Fatal Fortune: The Murder of Mike Williams Part 2

*Part 2 of the Mike Williams Disappearance* In this brand new series hosted Jim Chapman, you are brought into some of the most infamous crimes committed where money was the motivating factor. Mike Williams seemingly had it all, a beautiful wife and...

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Season 1

*Part 2 of the Mike Williams Disappearance*

In this brand new series hosted Jim Chapman, you are brought into some of the most infamous crimes committed where money was the motivating factor.
Mike Williams seemingly had it all, a beautiful wife and child, a fledging career and a quarter of a million dollar salary in his early thirties when he vanished while duck hunting at Florida’s Lake Seminole.
The subsequent search turned up nothing and only through the determination of his mother, would this case be solved eighteen years later and those responsible be brought to justice.

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WEBVTT

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Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of

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the Elite. I'm your host Jim Chapman, and I'm back

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with the second episode in this brand new series I

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call Fatal Fortune. Last week I brought you into the

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case of Mike Williams, who went missing on December sixteenth

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of the year two thousand and I left off some

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sixteen years later after Mike went missing, when his former

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wife Denise shows up at the sheriff's office this is

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in Leon County, Florida, to report an attempted kidnapping by

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her estranged husband. In Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, also

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played you the full police recording from that day, and

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if you noticed, the last thirty minutes of that interview

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became more of an interrogation of Denise over the sixteen

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year disappearance of Mike, So that police interview ended, and

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of course, due to her allegations, police went to speak

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to and eventually arrested Mike Winchester for these charges of

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kidnapping as well as domestic assault and armed robbery. So

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they pick him up, and it's important to note that

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he's charged at the time with kidnapping as I just

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told you, but it's aggravated kidnapping, which in Florida carries

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a sentence of twenty five years to life. So Brian

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was up against it. At his bond hearing, things even

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got worse for him as the judge denied any type

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of bond and it was a little while later Brian

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had some time to think about it. But a little

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while later, after being incarcerated awaiting this trial, that Brian

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went to the police through his attorney and he said

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he had some information on the Mike Williams disappearance that

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he would like to proffer. And for those of you

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not familiar with what a profit agreement is, it's an

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agreement saying that anything that you say to police you

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cannot be held accountable for. In addition, as part of

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his profer agreement, the state agreed not to seek a

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life sentence in the kidnapping case that he was being

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held for. They were still going to prosecute him, but

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they weren't going to seek the life part of twenty

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five to life. As a matter of fact, he would

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get less than that. So all told twenty to twenty

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five years for the kidnapping case. In total, immunity for

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anything that he told them in the Mike Williams case,

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and the state gave him everything he wanted, everything he

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asked for. There So, armed with this complete immunity, Brian

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told law enforcement that he murdered Mike and that Denise

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helped him plan these murders. Now, how did he accomplish

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that murder? What were the details of that? Don't worry,

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I'm going to get into that. I'll circle back to it,

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but for now, a couple of points I want to make. First,

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y'all know, y'all know I hate plea agreements. I absolutely

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hate proffer deals. I can't stand them. This is one

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of the very few times I sort of get it

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without these guys story of what the fuck happened to

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Mike Williams. They knew that with every passing year, the

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likelihood of that case being solved became less and less.

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In this case, unless something completely unexpected happened, would never

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be solved. Now, most importantly, as part of the profer agreement,

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Brian had to lead investigators to the remains of Mike Williams,

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which he did some seventeen years after he buried it.

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This enabled Mike's mother at the very least to be

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able to give her son she loved so much, a

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proper burial. So police on May eighth of twenty eighteen,

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they go to Florida State University where Denise worked, and

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they arrest her and she's charged with first degree murder,

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conspiracy to first degree murder, and accessory after the fact.

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The three page indictment of Denise's case was released shortly after.

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As a matter of fact, it was just a few

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days and I'm going to read it for you quickly.

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It's just really one page that I'm reading. Count one,

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between March first of two thousand and December sixteenth of

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two thousand, in the County of Leon in the state

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of Florida, Denise Williams, also known as Denise Winchester, agreed, conspired, combined,

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and confederated with another person, Brian Winchester, to unlawfully kill

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a human being, Jerry Michael Williams, And the agreement conspiracy,

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combined or confederate, was perpetrated from or was premeditated, design

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or intent to affect the death of Jerry Michael Williams.

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That was Count one. Then Count two goes through the

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same kind of introduction with her name and everything, but

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the diff teers. It says she was principal in the

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unlawful killing of a human being, Jerry Michael Williams, perpetrated

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by Brian Winchester in Jackson County, Florida, by shooting Jerry

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Michael Williams with a firearm a dangerous weapon in the

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killing was perpetrated from or without premeditated design. And then

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the third count between August first of twenty fourteen and

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December nineteenth of twin twenty seventeen, in the County of

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Leon in the state of Florida, Denise Williams did unlawfully

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maintain or assist the principal, Brian Winchester, by giving any

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aid knowing that he had committed the crime murder first

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degree that resulted in the death of Michael Williams, and

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did so with the intent that the offender would avoid

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or escape detection, arrest, trial, or punishment. So that was

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her three counts. Now, if you're like me, you may

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have wondered, if Brian confessed to being the one who

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killed Mike, how can Denise be charged with first degree murder?

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And the answer to that the simple explanation is in Florida.

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If you commit any act that furthers the offense, you're

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just as guilty. Think of it like this. If you

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and I decide to rob a bank, and I drive

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you to the bank, but I don't actually go into

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the bank with the gun and help with the hold up.

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But I drive you there, I'm just as guilty as

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you are, and we're both going to be charged with

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bank robbery. I don't actually have to go in there

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and hold the bank up. It's the same thing here.

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So Denise, at this point, she's facing a life sentence.

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Now I'm going to back up just a little bit

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because several key things happened between the time that Brian

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Winchester was arrested in August of twenty sixteen and Denise

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was arrested in May of twenty eighteen. For example, on

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May fourth of twenty seventeen, Denise and Brian's divorce became final.

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On December nineteenth of twenty seventeen, Brian Winchester was sentenced

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to twenty years in prison for that aggravated kidnapping of Denise,

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and the very next day, on December twentieth of twenty seventeen,

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that's when he led police to the remains of Mike Williams.

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And why did he do that? Why did he wait

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that long? It was because he wanted to make of

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his sentence first. Once they agreed to sentence him to

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just twenty years in prison, he knew that they were

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sticking up to their side of that proffer agreement, and

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he did lead them to those remains. So with Denise arrested,

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she gets held no bond in the trial starts. This

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is in late September of twenty eighteen. And for me,

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really three people during this week long trial, three people's

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testimony stood out more than anyone else's. That's Mike Williams's mother, SHERRYL. Williams,

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Kathy Winchester, who was Brian's wife she is now Kathy Thomas,

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and of course Brian Winchester himself, whom you might say

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was the States star witness. And so I'm going to

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play you, miss Sheryl Williams testimony first. And y'all, this

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sweet lady is maybe just what you would picture. She's

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elderly at this point, and she could barely see above

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that stand. Literally her neck and her head is all

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you can see because she's a short little thing. But

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she bravely testifies for about fifteen minutes. Here's that clip.

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Good afternoon, Good afternoon.

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Can you please introduce yourself to the jursey.

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What's your name? Man? What's your name?

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Is?

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Cheryl Anne Williams?

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Miss Cheryl? How do you spell your first name?

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She?

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H E R like L and miss Cheryl?

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You are, in fact Mike Williams's mother, are you not? Yes,

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as well as Nick Williams, sir. As well as Nick Williams.

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Yes.

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Do you have any grandkids?

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Yes, sir?

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One of those grandkids am yes? And who is Ainslie

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Mike's daughter, and that's from his marriage with Denise?

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Correct?

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Right now, Miss Cheryl? Is my understanding that you kind

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of run a little bit of a daycare.

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You cannot really run a daycare, but you take care

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of kids on a daily basis?

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That correct? Yes, it's kind of what you've done most

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of your.

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Life for fifty.

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Years, take care of your kids kids, seam.

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Ok.

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What about neighborhood kids.

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Neighbors yes, friends, friends kids yes?

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How many kids on that daily basis do you take

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care of.

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In fifty years on a daily basis? Gad day?

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Based just anywhere from four to ten Okay, for fifty years.

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Huh, for fifty years seen a lot of kids grow up?

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Yes? Sure?

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Have you had a chance see Ainsley grew up?

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I did not get to keep Angeley on my home

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day here.

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Haven't had a chance to watch her grow up?

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Have you sure?

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You have not had a chance to watch her grow up?

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Have you no? Sure?

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Talking about Mike Williams's death as we now know it

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back in two thousand, it was a disappearance.

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Yes.

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The initial theory was that he was missing and possibly

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eaten by alligators. Right, you never believed that.

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Did you?

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No?

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Sure?

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And in fact you took lots of steps to initiate

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and investigations, did you not. Yes, put up posters yes,

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rode the governor, Yes, put up billboards Yes.

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And in fact you were able to get an investigation launch.

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Were you not?

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Yes?

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At some point.

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Did you have a confrontation with the niece about your

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beliefs that might be still a lot?

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Yes?

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How many times?

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Twice?

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When was the first time?

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It was August of two thousand and one.

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So nine months after Mike was missing.

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Yes?

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Where was this?

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It was in her front yard?

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What happened?

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I had been trying to get publicity for Mike's disappearance.

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I had written the letters to the editor at the

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Tallahassee Democrat begging them to do a story about mike disappearance. Finally,

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a reporter, Tony Bridges from the Tallahassee Democrat, read my

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letters to the editor and he was doing a story

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about people who were missing locally in Tallahassee area. He

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called me to ask me if he could include Mike

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in those people, and I told him yes. Nick took

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a picture to the Tallahassee Democrat and he did a story.

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When the article came out in the newspaper, Denise called

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me on the phone. She was livid. She said, you

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and Nick need to come over here right now. We

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went to her house in the front yard. We weren't

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even invited inside. She was screaming at me. She was

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mad about the article. And she said, screaming at me,

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I don't ever want to hear Mike's name again. I

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don't ever want to see Mike's picture in the paper again.

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I don't ever want to know anything you're doing about

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Mike again. I have to get on with my life.

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And I asked her, I said, if that were Ansley

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in the lake. You would just leave her there, and

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she said, I would believe the authorities. I then she said,

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if you persist in trying to get a criminal investigation,

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you will lose Ann Sley.

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Your granddaughter, my granddaughter, Mike's daughter, Mike's daughter.

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You said there's a second time.

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The second time was before you. Yes, there was a

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second time.

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You seem to have a very good grasp of dates

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and names.

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I do, okay, been a passion obviously for your sons. Yes,

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lost time, Yes, taking a lot of steps right, Yes,

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let's talk about the second time. Then where did the

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second time happen?

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Any When it was January eighth, two thousand and five,

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00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:27.039
Nick and I were at the restaurant eating lunch. She

235
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.320
called Nick on his cell phone and she said, what

236
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.159
time is Sheryl going to be at home?

237
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:38.360
Nick said two o'clock. She said, well, I'm coming over.

238
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:41.759
The next day was January ninth.

239
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:44.799
I thought that she was going to bring the baby

240
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.320
to see me for my birthday.

241
00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.679
We had not seen her since Halloween in two thousand.

242
00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:53.000
And four when I stopped right there, So your birthday

243
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:53.960
is the very next day.

244
00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.320
It was the very next day, January ninth, and.

245
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.840
If I understood it correctly. The last he saw Ainsley.

246
00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:04.519
Before then it was Halloween was Halloween of two thousand

247
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:05.039
and four.

248
00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:06.600
Okay, so it was October.

249
00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:10.159
So from October to January he hadn't seen her, right, Okay,

250
00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:11.720
this is the day before your birthday.

251
00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.440
It was the day before my birthday, January eighth.

252
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:15.600
Okay. What happened next?

253
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:23.320
Nick and I got home and Denise came. She knocked

254
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.720
on the door. We opened the door and Brian was

255
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:28.159
with her.

256
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.000
Brian mean Brian Winchester, Brian Winchester.

257
00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.519
And I asked her, I said, where's ann Sley? Because

258
00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:39.879
I thought she was bringing ann Sley to see me,

259
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:44.840
and she said, ann Seley's taking a nap. Well, we

260
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:49.360
invited her inside and she sat down at the table

261
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.879
across from me. Nick was standing and Brian had.

262
00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:54.840
His back to the door.

263
00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:57.600
What did did he tell you?

264
00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:02.039
Denise said, Cheryl, you know that Annsley and I love you,

265
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:06.279
but Brian and I don't like the lies you're telling

266
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.440
about us. And I looked at her and I said, Denise,

267
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:17.559
what lies are you talking about? Brian screamed, you shut

268
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.759
your mouth and let her talk. Nick got upset and

269
00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.440
said some not nice things to Brian. And then Denise

270
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:31.119
is crying and she says, Cheryl, if you will just

271
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:35.839
stop this investigation, you can see Annesley again.

272
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:38.839
And I told her, I.

273
00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.720
Said, Denise, I can't stop this investigation.

274
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:45.240
I wouldn't if I could.

275
00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:52.079
Nick said, Denise, Mike is Mama's son and my brother,

276
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.920
and we just want to know what you and Brian

277
00:17:55.079 --> 00:18:01.039
did to him. Brian said, Denise, each let's go. We're

278
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.680
not getting anywhere, and they left.

279
00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:05.559
Did you ever see Ansley again?

280
00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:06.960
No?

281
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:09.000
Not at my house?

282
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.160
Sure, its great to see parks. They stid at them

283
00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:26.079
at fifteen.

284
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:34.519
Oak that Mike Fench Mike, which.

285
00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:35.519
They didn't feed that.

286
00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:37.880
Day.

287
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:44.519
I'll be admitted, both very arm come out the fact

288
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:49.480
that's the photograph you used. Sure that's the photograph using

289
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:50.279
your billboards?

290
00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:56.680
Yes, yes, definitely.

291
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:10.279
Well Chrus please, good afternoon, Miss Williams.

292
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:11.920
Good afternoon, High End.

293
00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.039
Phil Potovano. You and I have not met. I'm just

294
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:15.279
going to.

295
00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:17.920
Ask you a few questions, and I'm certainly sorry that

296
00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.519
it has to be under these circumstances, but I do

297
00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:21.319
have a few questions.

298
00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:26.960
I want to ask you. The first time that you.

299
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.880
That Denise confronted you was I think you said it

300
00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.119
was in the summer of two thousand and one.

301
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:42.160
Yes, and by then a circuit judge had declared Mike

302
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.279
did by that time, is that right?

303
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:45.039
Yes?

304
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.920
And by then the family had had a memorial service

305
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:50.279
for Mike.

306
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:51.400
Yes.

307
00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.039
And is it fair to assume that Denise would have

308
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.880
had to explain to Ansley, h would have to deal

309
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:04.319
with the fact that her dad wasn't home and try

310
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.160
to explain in the best way you could.

311
00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:13.680
To a child what had happened. Yes.

312
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.279
And do you think it might have been difficult for

313
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:25.359
her to be seeing missing posters and billboards and things

314
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:31.480
such as that. You said she was trying to get

315
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.680
past it. Is that what she said? She felt like

316
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:35.880
she had to get past it.

317
00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.880
She should, she had to get on with her life.

318
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:39.359
Okay.

319
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.359
And you know, I hate this term closure because I

320
00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:45.759
think in something like this there's never any closure.

321
00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.559
I mean, I don't even like to use the word.

322
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.160
But do you know what that means when people say that, Yes,

323
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:55.680
and do you think that some people might have this

324
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:58.480
need then to get beyond a certain point and not

325
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.079
say I've I've grieved, I've I've grieved the loss of

326
00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.920
my husband I've, you know, grieved the loss of my

327
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:10.359
child's father, but now I still have to entertain the

328
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:11.920
idea that maybe he's still alive.

329
00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:15.680
You do you accept that that might be difficult for

330
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:16.680
some people.

331
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:19.680
In mind?

332
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:20.400
Okay?

333
00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:23.559
And and I I know you have.

334
00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:25.759
A different view, and I respect that. Believe me, I do.

335
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.319
I wanted to ask you about the second occasion, which

336
00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:33.759
was much later. I think, wasn't it right?

337
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:38.079
And I think that I think that I heard you say,

338
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.880
and you correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not

339
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:43.400
sure how I heard this, but I thought I heard

340
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.240
you say that you and Nick said you just wanted

341
00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:50.240
to find out what Brian and and Deneath did to Mike?

342
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.799
Is that right now?

343
00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:04.480
If Denise is innocent and she thought that you were

344
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.759
accusing her of doing something to your son, do you

345
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:09.759
think it would be logical for her to be upset

346
00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:22.319
with you.

347
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.319
If she were innocent?

348
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.720
Yes, So this was a reaction that she had that

349
00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:32.400
would be consistent with a person who's innocent. Fine, did

350
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:36.920
you ever go to Cheryl's house on a centennial Oaks

351
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:38.519
after two thousand and one?

352
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:40.240
Who go to whose house?

353
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.759
I'm sorry I made him, I'm sorry I used your name.

354
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.319
I meant to say, Denise Williams. Did you ever go

355
00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:50.240
to Denise's house in Centennial Oaks after two thousand and one?

356
00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:51.240
Yes?

357
00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.000
And did you see the pictures of Mike in the house?

358
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:55.680
No?

359
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:56.799
You didn't.

360
00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:57.319
No.

361
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:00.799
Okay, let me ask you a couple of questions now,

362
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.119
and these are going to get a little easier. I

363
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.440
told the jury on Tuesday that your son was a

364
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.200
good father, a good husband, and a good provider.

365
00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:13.640
Would you agree with that?

366
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:14.440
Yes?

367
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.599
How long had you what was what was his relationship

368
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.759
like with Denise during the time that they were together?

369
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:26.799
I thought it was good.

370
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.559
And you knew Denise for quite a while I mean long.

371
00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.799
They got married in nineteen ninety four, right, right, But

372
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:35.960
you knew her for quite a while before.

373
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:37.319
The right right?

374
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.200
And how did they How did they? I mean did

375
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:41.839
they get along?

376
00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:42.839
Yes?

377
00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.400
And what were your feelings towards Denise during that period

378
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:47.640
of time?

379
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:48.440
I loved her?

380
00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:49.759
Thank you?

381
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:53.319
Reread direct.

382
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:02.359
Mi, Cheryl, Yes, number of twenty and seventeen. You were

383
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.200
told that Mike Williams had actually been murdered.

384
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:08.680
His body was found, correct, ysh.

385
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.279
You were told before everybody else was told briefly and

386
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:14.440
then hit the news correct. Sure you were told before

387
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.839
everybody else was and didn't hit the news correct right.

388
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:21.680
How long did it take before Denise called you and

389
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:22.519
said I'm sorry that I.

390
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:25.440
Was wrong All these years she never did.

391
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:27.960
How long did it take before she called you and said, hey,

392
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.640
I'm sorry, maybe I need to help you see your

393
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:31.440
granddaughter again?

394
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:34.200
She never did so.

395
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:36.720
From the day that she threatened you to stop the

396
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:41.000
investigation the day before your birthday, you've never seen your granddaughter.

397
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:43.440
No, no for good questions.

398
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:50.519
So how fucking sick are these two? Some bitches? Your

399
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:56.839
son's missing, presumed dad nobody, and they not only braid

400
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:01.440
her and Mike's dad screaming in the front of their yard,

401
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:06.000
but they also threatened the only link to Mike she

402
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:14.160
had left, her granddaughter, Ainsley. It's just despicable and it's heartbreaking.

403
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:19.200
And lastly, on that testimony, how about the prosecutor bringing

404
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:23.680
up the point that, despite Brian Winchester confessing to killing Mike,

405
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:28.440
not one fucking phone call from Denise saying I'm sorry

406
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:33.319
I was wrong. I'm so glad that we figured out

407
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:35.599
who did this, but I feel like such an asshole

408
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:39.359
for marrying this guy. None of that I mean that

409
00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:43.759
right there points to this is not the actions of

410
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:50.799
an innocent individual. Great job by the prosecutor pointing that out. Now, next,

411
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.400
I'm gonna bring you the testimony of Kathy Winchester, who

412
00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:00.000
is now Kathy Thomas. She's remarried, and that's Brian Winchester's

413
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:06.160
ex wife. And remember these were bestie couples, right they

414
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.440
hung out together all the time year and find out

415
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.599
they did some other things together as well. But I'm

416
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:17.079
going to play you her testimony, which is very interesting

417
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:21.839
and it's about an hour and fifteen minutes in length.

418
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:24.960
So like I did last week, I'm just gonna play

419
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:31.319
it and I'll pick up with Brian Winchester's testimony next week.

420
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.480
But here's that much love.

421
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.079
And can you please state and spell your name for

422
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:38.400
nightA in court Refort.

423
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:42.160
Catherine K A T H E R I N E

424
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.759
Thomas T H O M A S Miss Thomas.

425
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:48.400
Do you currently live in Tallahassee?

426
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:49.920
No?

427
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:50.680
Where do you live?

428
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.799
I live in North Carolina?

429
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.359
Okay? At some point did you live in Tallahassee?

430
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:56.799
Yes?

431
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.200
Did you grow up in Tallahassee?

432
00:26:58.279 --> 00:26:58.519
Yes?

433
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:01.640
Do you know who Mike Williams is?

434
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:02.559
Yes?

435
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:05.960
How do you know Mike Williams.

436
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:11.920
I know Mike Williams. We met in elementary school.

437
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:14.039
Okay, what elementary school?

438
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:15.440
North Florida Christian.

439
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:19.680
So how long did you know Mike?

440
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.400
I met him when we were in fifth grade, and

441
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:29.440
so I knew him from then and until.

442
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:34.400
He passed away.

443
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:35.799
Were you friends with Mike?

444
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:36.720
Yes?

445
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.279
Can you describe that friendship? Were you just friends? Did

446
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:41.920
you ever date anything like that?

447
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:47.680
We were friends. We did date, like, went together. You

448
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:55.640
know when we dated, we couldn't drive, so but we

449
00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:02.440
remained friends throughout, you know, our growing up.

450
00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.119
Were you friends after high school?

451
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:04.640
Yes?

452
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.160
Do you know who Denise Williams is?

453
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:08.599
Yes?

454
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:12.599
When did you first meet Denise Williams? And what was

455
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:13.759
her name at that point?

456
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:16.119
I met.

457
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:20.920
Denise Merrill in ninth grade at North Florida Christian School.

458
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:23.519
We went to high school together.

459
00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:25.480
Were you friends?

460
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:27.240
We were friends.

461
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:33.400
We weren't best friends in high school, but we were friends.

462
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:39.799
We cheer cheered together, and it was a small school,

463
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.720
so you know, everyone knew each other pretty well and

464
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:45.799
we were friends.

465
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.160
Now. Did Mike and Denise date in high school?

466
00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:51.279
Yes?

467
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.279
They did, and they eventually got married.

468
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:54.799
Is that right?

469
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:55.880
That's correct?

470
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.559
Do you know who Brian Winchester is. Yes, who's Brian Winchester.

471
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.680
Brian Winchester.

472
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:13.680
I met him in ninth grade, also at North Florida, and.

473
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:16.079
We started dating when I was.

474
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.200
We were juniors, we were both juniors in high school,

475
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:21.799
and then we eventually got married.

476
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:23.640
Also, when did you get married?

477
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.920
We got married in nineteen ninety four, May of nineteen

478
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:29.279
ninety four.

479
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.599
And we're Mike and den He's married around that same

480
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:34.160
time frame.

481
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:38.160
Mm hmm, they were married in December.

482
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:42.680
But but yes, within the same year.

483
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:45.960
Okay, Now did y'all do things together?

484
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:47.759
We did?

485
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.000
That's couples, Yes, yes, Can you describe some of the

486
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.000
things that you did together as couples at that point?

487
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.000
Well, we would do things like go out to eat,

488
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:01.599
We would.

489
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:08.799
Go movies, you know, the normal just kind of like

490
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:15.720
you know, if something you know, a movie or dinner,

491
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.599
you know, just kind of like couple dates type stuff.

492
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:20.680
We double dating with double.

493
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:25.960
Dating, right, Yes, And we would do both. Brian and

494
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.880
Mike would hunt and fish, and so Denise and I

495
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:33.200
would tag along, you know, we would do those sorts

496
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.319
of things, go to the coast and you know, go

497
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:41.119
on a dove hunt or you know, just things like that.

498
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:43.440
We did a couple things like that together.

499
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.359
Now you and Brian had a son together, is that right?

500
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:47.200
Yes?

501
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:49.160
When was your son born?

502
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:54.799
He was born in February of nineteen ninety nine.

503
00:30:55.039 --> 00:31:02.759
And Denise and Mike had a daughter. Correct, And Hansley

504
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:04.480
was born around the same time as your son.

505
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:17.440
She was born in May of ninety nine.

506
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.880
At some point your marriage to Brian Winchester started to

507
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:24.480
have some problems. Is that fair to sight?

508
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:28.200
Yes, Yes, that's correct.

509
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:29.920
You eventually separated.

510
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:31.200
Correct?

511
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:32.680
When did you separate?

512
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:40.160
We separated September eleventh, nine to eleven, two thousand and one.

513
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:40.880
Correct.

514
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:46.200
Okay, And when did you finally finalize the divorce?

515
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:55.880
The divorce was final in two thousand and four, April of.

516
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:03.799
Two thousand, April of two thousand and three.

517
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:09.680
I'm sorry this, Thomas here a little nervous today, aren't you.

518
00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:11.640
I am a little bit nervous.

519
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:20.680
And this is hard to talk about there. Yes, did

520
00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:23.559
you suspect that Brian Winchester, your husband, was having an

521
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:25.160
affair with Denise Williams.

522
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:27.400
I did suspect that.

523
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.759
I want to take you back to December of nineteen

524
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:37.839
ninety nine. This is before you're separated. Okay, did you

525
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:40.279
receive a phone call from the Tailasi police department?

526
00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:42.119
Yes?

527
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.000
What was that phone call in reference to?

528
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:48.319
It was in reference to.

529
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:54.000
There was a police officer who was standing at Brian's

530
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:58.400
truck and she said, you know, ma'am, i'm here.

531
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:02.160
Your truck is in this parking lot. And she was just.

532
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:06.680
Like doing a call sort of like this truck is here.

533
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:08.839
And I guess she had looked at the registration and

534
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.200
saw that it was ours, and so she was at

535
00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:12.400
Brian's truck.

536
00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:14.319
And she get a description of the truck to you.

537
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:21.079
She did because everything, yes, yes, she she.

538
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.559
I was like that, you know, it can't be and

539
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:27.400
she said, well, it has a bumper sticker, you know,

540
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:30.279
this bumper sticker, this bumper sticker, this bumper sticker. And

541
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:33.039
so I was like, well, yes, that is our vehicle.

542
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:37.079
Well you just said it can't be. Why did this, uh,

543
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:38.799
why couldn't it be Brian's truck.

544
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:44.319
Brian had told me that he was in Arkansas hunting,

545
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.559
and so I was confused as to why she was

546
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:55.200
telling me that she was at the truck because I

547
00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:58.359
had been told by Brian that he was in Arkansas

548
00:33:58.759 --> 00:33:59.920
with the truck hunt.

549
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.720
Now were you told the location of the truck. Was

550
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:05.440
it at a church?

551
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:06.880
Yes, it was.

552
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.159
It was at a church, Grace Church or Grace is

553
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:12.679
in the name.

554
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:18.440
I'm not sure the whole generally located. Was that close

555
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:20.280
to where Denise Williams was living at the time?

556
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:22.119
Yes?

557
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:24.440
Where was Denise Williams living at the time.

558
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:30.320
She was living at on Centennial Oaks.

559
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:32.239
Drive.

560
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:38.519
I want to pass forward a little bit and now

561
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:40.480
I want to talk to you about a trip that

562
00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:44.480
you took to Panama City. Do you remember a trip

563
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:44.880
like that?

564
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:45.800
Yes?

565
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:51.199
Who went on that trip? Actually, let's start with this.

566
00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:53.000
Who was supposed to go on that trip?

567
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.280
It was supposed to be the four of us. It

568
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:00.960
was supposed to be me and Brian and Denise and Mike.

569
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:05.360
What was the purpose of the trip? Why were you

570
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:06.239
going to Panama City?

571
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:12.159
It was supposed to be like a birthday trip?

572
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:13.480
Whose birthday?

573
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.599
Where we celebrated Denise's thirtieth birthday?

574
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:17.480
Okay?

575
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:22.760
And so she was born in nineteen seventies after right, Yes,

576
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.119
and it's our thirtieth birthday would have.

577
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:28.360
Been when two thousand?

578
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:33.320
Okay, do you know what months we're talking about? That?

579
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.559
This was that the trip was planned.

580
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.360
It would have been, you know, spring March or April.

581
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.119
You know, I don't know how the weekends would have

582
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:45.800
lined up.

583
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:55.320
But springtime of two thousand correct. And what was a plan?

584
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:57.599
Were you meeting someplace and driving over together?

585
00:35:57.800 --> 00:35:58.119
Or what.

586
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:04.760
The plan was for Mike and Denise to come over

587
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:08.360
to our house on Mino Creek Drive and we were

588
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:13.639
going to all drive together over there and to Panama City.

589
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:15.199
Did my show up?

590
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:16.199
No?

591
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:18.559
Did Denise show up?

592
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:19.480
Yes?

593
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:24.480
Were you informed that Mike was at going?

594
00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:26.519
Yes?

595
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:28.239
How did that make you feel?

596
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:30.719
I didn't want to go.

597
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:43.480
Because at that point in our lives, whenever it was

598
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:49.480
just me with Brian and Denise, it was uncomfortable. I

599
00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:52.159
felt like a third wheel. I felt like I was

600
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.280
on a date with the two of them.

601
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:57.440
So how did you respond to the idea of going

602
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.079
to Panama City with Denise and your husband?

603
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.360
I said, if Mike doesn't have to go, I don't

604
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.519
have to go either. I didn't want to go, and

605
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:16.280
I had, I guess.

606
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:18.880
Sort of a little tantrum, and I.

607
00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:23.239
Ran inside and I locked myself in the bathroom and

608
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.199
I said I'm not going.

609
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:26.519
But you eventually went.

610
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:27.599
I did.

611
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:29.599
Why did you go?

612
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:35.599
Just because as I was there in the bathroom, they

613
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:39.960
were on the other side just talking me into going.

614
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:45.360
And so let's talk about the trip itself. When you

615
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:49.199
got there. Do you remember going out to clubs?

616
00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:52.000
I do?

617
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.519
Okay, do you remember going to a strip club?

618
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:56.239
I do.

619
00:37:57.599 --> 00:37:59.679
Was Brian and Denise both president for that?

620
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:00.400
Yes?

621
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:06.360
Did you drink a lot that weekend or that on

622
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:06.880
that trip?

623
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:07.760
Yes?

624
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:15.920
Do you remember having photographs sticking up you?

625
00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:24.599
I don't remember specifically the moments that that, but when

626
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:28.079
I saw the photograph.

627
00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:29.760
I knew what it was.

628
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:32.880
Who took the picture?

629
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:34.079
Brian did.

630
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.719
Do you remember any of the details of what happened

631
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:41.599
after those photographs would have been taken?

632
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:44.519
I don't.

633
00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:51.360
I don't remember specifically a lot about that weekend.

634
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.119
At some point. Did you find some movie tickets?

635
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:01.280
I did.

636
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:04.760
Did that increase your suspicion that Brian was having in

637
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:05.159
it there?

638
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:06.039
Yes?

639
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:06.440
It did.

640
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:08.119
Where did you find the movie tickets?

641
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.880
I found them in his wallet and who's wallet? I

642
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.840
found them in Brian's wallet. I found two movie tickets.

643
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:18.440
What was the movie the tickets were for?

644
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.199
It was for a movie called The Virgin Suicides.

645
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.559
And just to be clear, these used tickets or tickets

646
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:27.360
that you bought beforehand.

647
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:31.920
They were used tickets, and I knew I had not

648
00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:33.360
gone to see the movie.

649
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:41.079
So it was like they I raised your suspicions. Yes,

650
00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:50.079
it was like, okay, what does the name Meridian mean

651
00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:50.280
to you?

652
00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:55.440
Meridian is a name that when.

653
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:03.880
We would like go out. It was a name that

654
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:11.760
kind of became a party name for Denise, who came

655
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:17.320
up with the day I can I remember specifically whose

656
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:18.079
idea it was.

657
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:19.840
She lived on Meridian.

658
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:24.360
Road at that time, and we had gone to a

659
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:27.719
concert at the Moon and at the end of the

660
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.639
concert you could like go up to the band and

661
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:36.880
they would sign a CD or whatever, and that night,

662
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.280
you know, she had them. She was like, oh, say

663
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:42.679
to Meridian, you know, so they signed it. I remember

664
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.719
them signing it to her, and so it just kind

665
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:46.400
of you came.

666
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:50.800
So you've seen Denise use the name Meridian before.

667
00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:55.599
Yes, did you ever find a receipt that referenced the

668
00:40:55.639 --> 00:40:56.239
name Meridian?

669
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:57.199
I did.

670
00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:02.000
Can you tell the jury where you found that receipt?

671
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:07.559
I had gone into Brian's office and.

672
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:16.480
This is when I was contemplating what my next steps

673
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:17.679
would be as far as.

674
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:19.519
Moving out.

675
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.119
We didn't have bills sent to our house. He would

676
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:24.920
have all of our bills sent.

677
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:25.559
To his office.

678
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.320
So I had gone to his office one evening and

679
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:33.079
I was just looking through his desk drawers, just trying

680
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:33.960
to find out.

681
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:40.519
Information about our financial life.

682
00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:42.440
And you came across the receipt.

683
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:46.159
And I came across the receipt.

684
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:46.280
Judge me, I approached it with us.

685
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:46.920
You may.

686
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:55.000
Ms Thompson going to show you at market in states

687
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:59.679
ativits plot. Is this a receipt that you're talking about? Yes, sir,

688
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.920
is that a fair copy of that receipt? Yes, it

689
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:05.280
is church Out author states Exhibit twenty.

690
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:09.239
I heave any eviction the War Foundation on the date

691
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.000
of the secret Honor Churchy.

692
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:17.639
There's a date on the receipt. What is the date

693
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:19.480
on that It.

694
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:23.480
Says seven twenty eighth one, not.

695
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:28.920
During the time that you just testified you yes, Judge

696
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:30.280
on author states Ephibit twenty.

697
00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:35.440
Further addiction, why didn't you no objection? All right, it'll

698
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:37.079
be admitted with that addiction.

699
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:54.000
Permssion polish you may, Amos Thomas. This is an obviously

700
00:42:54.039 --> 00:42:56.280
a copy and we can't flip.

701
00:42:56.119 --> 00:42:59.639
Over the part that's correct.

702
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:12.480
H m m.

703
00:43:14.599 --> 00:43:14.880
Yeah.

704
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:21.599
You point out the day the area.

705
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.480
That makes fund.

706
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:26.440
Right there?

707
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:32.840
Okay, where was this receipt from there?

708
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:42.840
It's from the Gold Center from I didn't do it

709
00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:47.880
the Gold Center, and you were.

710
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.440
Able to answer. At one point we looked at the entirecy.

711
00:43:50.679 --> 00:44:00.000
Is that the yes, okay, what was the receipt?

712
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:04.480
It was for a necklace and it was during the

713
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:07.119
time when it was kind of popular to have a

714
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:11.519
name on a like a gold name, and it was

715
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.639
the name Meridian. It was like a necklace with the

716
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:16.440
name Meridian.

717
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:19.079
So I knew what that was. And that's what the

718
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:21.679
receipt was for, was for one of those necklaces.

719
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:25.360
And that date is July, the late July two thousand

720
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:29.679
and one, correct, that's before you separated from Brian Winchester.

721
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:30.239
Is that right?

722
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:38.079
Yes, that's correct, and.

723
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:42.920
You separated from Brian Winchester. Apossumin leve about a month

724
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:43.360
after that.

725
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:49.800
Month and a half, right, she's trying to take down

726
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.000
which you say, You'll say, yes, yeah.

727
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:58.599
I'm sorry, and ultimately you divorced Brian Winchester.

728
00:44:59.360 --> 00:44:59.760
Yes, sir.

729
00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:05.880
On the fast forward now to August of twenty sixteen,

730
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:10.320
were you aware of the Brian Winchester kidnapped Denise Williams,

731
00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:18.199
who was then Denise Winchester. Yes, after that occurred, did

732
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:24.840
you have conversations with Denise Williams about what occurred? Yes,

733
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:32.400
about a week after that incident, that kidnapping, Denise ask

734
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:33.239
you to do something.

735
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:34.239
Yes.

736
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:37.719
What did she ask you to do?

737
00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:44.679
Denise asked me to tell Marcus to get a message

738
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:48.599
to Brian that I'm not talking.

739
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:03.119
Was a week approximately after the kidnapping.

740
00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:03.440
Yes.

741
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:09.480
Sometime after that, did you start communicating with the Florida

742
00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:10.599
Department of Law Enforcement?

743
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:14.039
Yes?

744
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.159
Who's Marcus?

745
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:29.320
Marcus is Brian Winchester's father, Marcus Winchester.

746
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:33.519
Okay, we're gonna say I'm not talking. Is it referring

747
00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:36.920
that Kathy Thomas is not talking or Denise Williams was

748
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:37.400
not talking?

749
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:39.440
That Denise was not talking.

750
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:45.360
She wanted me to tell Marcus to tell Brian that

751
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:50.840
she wasn't talking. She said, I'm not talking, but that

752
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:52.679
was her saying that to me.

753
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:57.840
Okay. After that, at some point, did you start having

754
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:02.679
communications with the Florida Department of Law Yes. Was there

755
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:05.039
any one in particular that you started communicating with?

756
00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:12.320
William Michaeler and Mike Devaney.

757
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:16.239
And at some point after that did you agree to

758
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:22.360
start working as a confidential source, Yes, I did. As

759
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.719
part of that. Were you given away to make recordings?

760
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:25.679
Yes?

761
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:41.159
After that? Did you ever confront Denise about what she

762
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:43.519
asked you to do that week after the kidnapping?

763
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:44.599
Yes?

764
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:45.000
I did.

765
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:50.280
Did you record that conversation? Yes, sir, judgement that approach.

766
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:50.840
Give minute.

767
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.440
There was Thomas Charlie Mark she did s if theyre

768
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.519
at sixteen? This is a recording. Did you have a

769
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:05.519
chance to review this in our office before your testomary today?

770
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:05.960
Yes?

771
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.159
Is that apparent accurate depiction of the reporting that you made?

772
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:09.679
Yes?

773
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:12.440
Office at sixteen?

774
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.880
This time an objection to be a pivot.

775
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:27.760
And I'm having to shoot my mom's to I've got

776
00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:30.199
a test tonight and so on the study and you

777
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:32.039
have there and people are going to be coming announce

778
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:33.199
I'm just gonna go be over there.

779
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:33.800
Yeah.

780
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:36.480
So you're driving back.

781
00:48:36.519 --> 00:48:39.920
So does that mean next is worse or anyway?

782
00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:45.320
Well, I was headed back anyways, but this way, if

783
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:48.559
you know, if Rocking needs to come, you can.

784
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:52.199
Yeah. And you got the.

785
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:56.800
I think we have here. Identify who's talking to the

786
00:48:57.239 --> 00:48:59.760
Jerry can h follow it a little.

787
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:02.079
Bit, But there's two people on this recording.

788
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:02.559
Is that right?

789
00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:03.400
Yes?

790
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:05.239
One voice is yours?

791
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:05.880
Yes?

792
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:08.039
And who's the other voice?

793
00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:09.119
Denise?

794
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:16.760
Shut up?

795
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:18.599
So I couldn't even talk to you.

796
00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:20.239
I was just like a marry, I'll just stick it

797
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:20.800
into first.

798
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:24.280
Hang on one second, I just got in the car.

799
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:25.480
I just stopped to get coffee.

800
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:26.119
Let me get.

801
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:30.920
That person who just said I just got in the car.

802
00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:33.519
I just got to get coffee. Whose voice is that?

803
00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:34.360
That was me?

804
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:35.000
Okay?

805
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:37.239
So the other voice is Denise, that's right?

806
00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:39.239
All right?

807
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:43.360
Okay, So I am.

808
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.079
Just starting to missed again. This is going to be

809
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:52.360
like a miserable jibe. So I'm kind of freaking out

810
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:54.440
about this subpoena.

811
00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:56.719
I'm sure when is it?

812
00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:59.599
It's February twenty second.

813
00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:02.719
A person who was talking about a subpoena, that was

814
00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:06.239
your voice, right, yes? And the person who said, I'm

815
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:08.000
sure that's Denise Williams.

816
00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:08.920
That's correct.

817
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:16.760
Yeah, when are you talking about a subpoena? What are

818
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:17.440
you talking about?

819
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:22.000
Well, as one of the.

820
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:31.960
Things that as a confidential source, that William Mickler, you know,

821
00:50:32.599 --> 00:50:36.159
we were going to say that I had received a subpoena,

822
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:41.599
so that that was going to be a subpoena for

823
00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:43.360
me to have to.

824
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:45.760
Talk to.

825
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:53.079
Mister Devaney about, you know, the case I had. I

826
00:50:53.320 --> 00:51:01.840
had received a subpoena from Mike Devane and this was

827
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:02.840
all under the.

828
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:07.639
That never so that never happened.

829
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:12.679
That never happened. That was part of part of being

830
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:13.960
the confidential source.

831
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.320
That's how we're getting everything correct.

832
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.719
That's a subject to bring up the subject correct for

833
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:21.920
me to talk to her and say, I've got I

834
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:24.719
have received the subpoena. I'm gonna have to talk about this,

835
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:30.000
and this conversation is us talking about what I'm going

836
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:32.719
to be saying in that supposed subpoena.

837
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:39.119
Okay, yeah, I'm back to it.

838
00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:41.800
Like you know, like you have to travel and you

839
00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:45.199
mean they came out there, all that kind of stuff.

840
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:48.840
The attorney that I talked to, he's just like a

841
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:50.199
mortgage attorney.

842
00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:50.519
Yeah.

843
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:55.320
So he said, he's like, you know, I could call.

844
00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:58.159
He's like, I don't do this, but I could call

845
00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:00.199
and see if you could do it, or.

846
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:03.599
You know, he's like you would have to go somewhere

847
00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:05.679
where you would get sworn in, because the whole thing

848
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:06.840
is like getting sworn in.

849
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:07.159
Yeah.

850
00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:11.360
Yeah, So I was like, all right, well, you know,

851
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:14.360
just let me kind of figure out what I'm going.

852
00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:17.639
To do because Andy had said that to you remember

853
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:19.400
when you were going to get down position? But that

854
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:21.960
was a subpoena too, right, But I know finger did it.

855
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.280
No, No, they didn't ever do it.

856
00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:30.360
I just can't imagine that. What if somebody lived in

857
00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:33.800
Alaska or in another country or I don't know whatever.

858
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:43.039
Well, here's here's my problem, and I'm I'm gonna get

859
00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:44.000
upset here.

860
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:45.679
But my problem is.

861
00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:51.760
That I can't really talk to Rocky about any of this.

862
00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:02.480
He's my husband, my current husband.

863
00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:14.159
Right, because I know I know they're wanting to talk

864
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:24.079
to me about Mike. And I mean, over the time

865
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:25.960
that we've been married, I've.

866
00:53:26.440 --> 00:53:28.639
Always just pretended like I.

867
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:38.679
Don't know anything, and.

868
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:49.559
I mean I do know what you know?

869
00:53:53.639 --> 00:54:07.440
Well, do you remember back when.

870
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:12.400
All of that happened with you and Brian and Chuck

871
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:13.280
in Atlanta?

872
00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:26.760
Yeah, Well, Brian called me.

873
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:30.599
At the shop crying.

874
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:42.880
And before I mad, Well, I you know, I.

875
00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:44.880
Don't know because I didn't know that all of that

876
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:47.599
had happened until Chuck wrote me a letter.

877
00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:52.079
But Brian had figured out.

878
00:54:53.840 --> 00:55:03.639
That you were cheating on him with Chuck, and he

879
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:06.079
just told me about Mike.

880
00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:24.599
What he said, he called you upset about shot and

881
00:55:24.679 --> 00:55:27.559
then hed he was like he was mad at you.

882
00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:34.159
And so he told me he told me about what

883
00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:35.119
happened to Mike.

884
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:38.400
Well, I would love to know what happened to Mike.

885
00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:41.840
He never told me.

886
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:51.360
They said they found his remains and that he was

887
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.400
beaten or that he was shot.

888
00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:59.639
Brian told me that y'all planned it, planned what m

889
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:11.159
oh my god, and Marcus showed up at the shop

890
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:17.119
later that afternoon, you know, telling me how I would.

891
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:18.559
Have to take this to my grave.

892
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:23.239
Guys, Marward's life it would ruin you know.

893
00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:28.079
Apparently Brian told Marcus that he had talked to me,

894
00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:31.840
and he went on to just tell me.

895
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:33.119
Marcus went on to tell.

896
00:56:33.039 --> 00:56:35.320
Me how my life would be ruined, how I would

897
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:38.599
never be able to start over if Stafford's life was ruined.

898
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:43.159
If so, Marcus knew.

899
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.440
And when you said, Brian said, y'all you're talking about

900
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:49.960
me and Brian and Marcus or who.

901
00:56:52.719 --> 00:56:53.719
You and Brian.

902
00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:59.400
And and that Marcus is involved. I mean obviously if

903
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:02.159
he came to talk you, well.

904
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:10.360
You know, shut it down, shut down, so you know

905
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:12.960
whatever in the world.

906
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:19.440
I mean, it's it's it's.

907
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:23.679
And then you got a letter from Shuck. My parents

908
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:26.159
got a letter too, But you got a letter from

909
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:27.679
Shuck and he's talking.

910
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:27.920
About it too.

911
00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:28.440
Or now.

912
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.039
Chuck told me what happened in Atlanta and Atlanta Okay.

913
00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:34.719
Yeah, so.

914
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:39.880
Here's the deal. Here is the deal.

915
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:43.000
Hang on, somebody's texting me.

916
00:57:45.159 --> 00:57:47.119
Roggy Rex is not doing well.

917
00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:53.199
Yeah, that's pretty major, especially with Marcus involved.

918
00:57:55.159 --> 00:57:57.880
Well, I mean I know that you know something, Denise,

919
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:01.079
because whenever I was going out to Marcus, You're like,

920
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:05.400
tell Marcus to tell Brian, I'm not talking.

921
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:07.519
Yeah, and I knew what that meant.

922
00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:10.760
Well, that's why, because what they've been doing is they've

923
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:13.000
been lying to me, and they've been lying to them.

924
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:15.079
And obviously, I mean because you told me the thing

925
00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:17.400
about him saying what I wrote in the letter to

926
00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:19.920
the Jet, which I didn't, and so they're playing everybody

927
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:20.719
against each other.

928
00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:23.239
He did that.

929
00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:24.360
Here's the thing.

930
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:28.320
I don't even care about all that anymore because time

931
00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:29.039
has moved on.

932
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:30.880
Mike is in heaven.

933
00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:34.239
So here is my problem.

934
00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:37.840
Here is like my problem if Lonnie doesn't know any

935
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:41.800
of this, Rockie doesn't know that I know, and all

936
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:45.280
these years anytime anything ever came up about Mike.

937
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:47.039
I just sit with my mouth shot.

938
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:51.599
He never would have married me if he had known.

939
00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:53.800
This has nothing to do with you.

940
00:58:54.840 --> 00:58:57.400
I haven't been lying to him for fifteen years.

941
00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.320
But you're talking about something Chuck happened years later. So

942
00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:04.920
then you're saying that years later Ryan told you something,

943
00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:08.159
Marcus came to you. So two people came to you

944
00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:11.039
to talk to you about this years after it happened.

945
00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:12.440
Had you even had you met Rocky?

946
00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:13.159
Then yes?

947
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:17.280
I mean, but that had that that What that has

948
00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:19.000
to do with is two people telling you something that

949
00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:21.360
has nothing to do with you and anything that you

950
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:22.840
did or anything that you didn't do.

951
00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:27.400
I mean, it doesn't and.

952
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:28.960
There's nothing you can't tell Rocky.

953
00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:29.440
I know that.

954
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.519
I'm sure that. So that's why you were talking about

955
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:35.239
losing your family.

956
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:38.719
I am gonna lose my family if I lie.

957
00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:42.519
If I lie, when if they asked me, did you

958
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:44.480
know what happened to Mike?

959
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:46.079
Wef I lie?

960
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.880
Then now now what happens? And then when I go

961
00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:54.840
home and Rocky says, why didn't you ever say anything?

962
00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:56.400
Like?

963
00:59:57.000 --> 00:59:59.000
How how did I explain that?

964
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:00.199
Other?

965
01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:06.800
I explain that I just decided to forget it, he

966
01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:11.440
never would have married me. I don't believe that because

967
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:12.639
you didn't have nothing.

968
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:14.519
Because I know he is.

969
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:19.199
Well, I'm not why to him about anything.

970
01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:24.079
But every time there anything about Mike, don't that is

971
01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:24.679
a lie?

972
01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:28.280
Well that you didn't that you didn't tell him what

973
01:00:28.360 --> 01:00:30.199
Brian told you if I did tell him what Ma

974
01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:33.760
just told you. So again, it's two things that two

975
01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:36.599
people told you. But it's not you. It's not he

976
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:38.199
fell in love with you, it's not you.

977
01:00:38.679 --> 01:00:41.320
Well, what am I supposed to do when they asked me?

978
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:48.079
I mean what I was supposed to do?

979
01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:52.119
Was he pushing He was pushing you on the phone

980
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:53.920
about it? Is that what you were saying?

981
01:00:54.679 --> 01:01:02.679
Yeah, Rocky's like, why do you have this?

982
01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:04.559
Why do they want to talk to you?

983
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:08.880
I mean my guess was because you were married Brian

984
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:13.039
at the time, you and Bryan. I'm guessing that I

985
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:14.840
don't know. I mean, if all this is tied to

986
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:18.199
this guy that he talked to, then I'm guessing he

987
01:01:18.280 --> 01:01:19.880
wanted to talk to you because you were friends to that.

988
01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:25.320
But I mean, but again, it just it has nothing

989
01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:28.800
to do with Rocky or your girls, or your family, nothing.

990
01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:29.599
Nothing.

991
01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:36.960
They weren't even around then, and you weren't either. This

992
01:01:37.119 --> 01:01:41.320
is years later, because I'm trying to think it was

993
01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:43.679
three at least three years later.

994
01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:48.920
When I was with Chuck.

995
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:10.679
Yeah, and I mean, Rockie's not gonna h stuff that

996
01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:14.840
you kept inside that people have told you. If you

997
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:17.320
decide to tell him, he's gonna be fine. If you don't,

998
01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:19.039
he's not. He's not gonna You're not gonna leave. He's

999
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:21.079
not gonna be like we're getting a divorce. I mean,

1000
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:21.760
there's no way.

1001
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:24.480
There's no way.

1002
01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:27.400
And if you would have told him back then when

1003
01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:29.880
y'all are engaged, you're getting engaged or whatever, it's still

1004
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:32.360
had nothing to do with him meeting you, him falling

1005
01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:34.960
in love with you, him wanting to marry you, your family,

1006
01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:42.760
has to do with Ryan and Marcus. You know what

1007
01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:52.239
I'm saying. Yeah, So it's February twenty second, it's all

1008
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:52.639
he said.

1009
01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:59.960
Hm.

1010
01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:07.360
And is it a trial because it's set a witness

1011
01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:10.400
something I didn't understand what that's time that because I

1012
01:03:10.519 --> 01:03:14.920
got to Penis before for deposition, it's at home.

1013
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:16.920
I don't have it with me.

1014
01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:20.000
It just says that, like I have to go down

1015
01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:24.000
to the state Attorney's office at ten o'clock in the morning.

1016
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:28.760
The state Attorney. Yeah, because that's where I think, that's

1017
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:39.519
where I have to go to you and you and

1018
01:03:39.559 --> 01:03:41.760
Marcus have yell ever spoken since has he ever said

1019
01:03:41.800 --> 01:03:42.360
anything to you?

1020
01:03:42.599 --> 01:03:47.239
So it's just been understood that, you know, if I

1021
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:54.880
ever said anything, then everything, you know, all the all

1022
01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:59.119
the stupid shit we ever did, would everybody would know?

1023
01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:07.079
You know, And yeah, everybody would know. And wouldn't that

1024
01:04:07.199 --> 01:04:13.119
be awful when you know Mike's in a better place

1025
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:14.440
and so.

1026
01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:28.119
You know, I don't know.

1027
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:36.960
I mean that has done that to you again, that's

1028
01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:40.440
using fear and the unknown to try to control you.

1029
01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:41.559
I mean, it's typical.

1030
01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:49.639
Yeah, did Denise just gonna ask you this? Because I've

1031
01:04:49.639 --> 01:04:50.679
been thinking about it?

1032
01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:56.159
But why not?

1033
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:58.079
Long before mix.

1034
01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:01.400
He called me.

1035
01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:08.480
Mike called me and he had found a bunch of

1036
01:05:08.559 --> 01:05:18.559
money in your wallet and he said, I think Denise

1037
01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:24.079
has a boyfriend. He said, he found a bunch of

1038
01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:29.320
money in your wallet, a bunch of cash. And he

1039
01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:32.599
said that you told him something about Deanna, that you

1040
01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:35.599
told him that Deanna had paid you back for something.

1041
01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:38.320
And he said that he had asked Dianna and Deanna

1042
01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:39.519
said that wasn't true.

1043
01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:41.440
Yeah, yeah, I all.

1044
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:49.599
But I remember thinking, like.

1045
01:05:50.519 --> 01:05:54.199
He knows, he knows that Denise and Brian.

1046
01:05:54.199 --> 01:06:01.599
Like each other, and like I've always been myself if

1047
01:06:01.639 --> 01:06:08.880
I had Mike. I think Brian has a girlfriend. I've

1048
01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:14.480
always wondered if he was still being here, why why

1049
01:06:14.519 --> 01:06:15.480
couldn't y'all just.

1050
01:06:15.559 --> 01:06:16.639
Get a divorce.

1051
01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:19.280
I've always known.

1052
01:06:19.159 --> 01:06:21.079
That you and Brian loved each other.

1053
01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:25.760
Brian told me one time that you were his best

1054
01:06:25.840 --> 01:06:27.800
friend and that was just the way it was always

1055
01:06:27.880 --> 01:06:28.199
gonna be.

1056
01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:35.480
Did Mike find out?

1057
01:06:37.079 --> 01:06:37.119
No?

1058
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:37.960
That was all.

1059
01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:40.679
I remember him calling Dianna. I think I remember.

1060
01:06:41.360 --> 01:06:43.360
I'm pretty sure he told me that he had called

1061
01:06:43.360 --> 01:06:46.440
to you. But I know Missionary called Diana because he

1062
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:51.400
talked about it, and I remember he was a conversation.

1063
01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:52.840
I don't remember.

1064
01:06:56.119 --> 01:06:59.159
I remember us talking about it. I remember that we

1065
01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:04.079
were talking about Carol because of like the pot and

1066
01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:06.320
stuff like that. I remember talking about that with him,

1067
01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:10.400
and I think Carol ended up talking to him because

1068
01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:13.440
that's And I don't remember how much money it was.

1069
01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:15.639
I don't remember. I do remember money, and I do

1070
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:20.639
remember a conversation about Pott and Carol and Deanna, and

1071
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:22.960
I remember that he had talked to Dianna too, so

1072
01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:24.559
I had to tell her not all that.

1073
01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:28.159
But so I do remember that.

1074
01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:30.199
Yeah, I guess I didn't know that he had talked

1075
01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:30.320
to you.

1076
01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:43.079
I don't know.

1077
01:07:43.159 --> 01:07:45.320
I mean I would, I don't know. I just I

1078
01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:48.519
can't do anything with the I couldn't do anything with

1079
01:07:48.599 --> 01:07:50.840
the divorce. I couldn't do anything with any of this

1080
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:55.280
without talking to an attorney. And mainly I just talked

1081
01:07:55.559 --> 01:07:59.199
with Becky's husband and then whoever Kristen tells me to

1082
01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:07.679
talk to. But I mean you, I mean, that's all

1083
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:11.960
up to you. I'm telling Rocky too, is up to you.

1084
01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:14.920
But again, I don't I don't see him.

1085
01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:15.480
I don't.

1086
01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:17.840
I just see him being like, oh my god, and

1087
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:20.920
you know, I just but I don't. I don't see

1088
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:24.720
him being like we're getting a divorce, and surely you

1089
01:08:24.760 --> 01:08:25.279
don't see that.

1090
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:28.840
I do see that because I just know that like

1091
01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:31.840
every year if it comes up, and you know, if

1092
01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:35.199
there's something in the paper, and then I just to know,

1093
01:08:35.560 --> 01:08:38.920
like every I know, he would have said, why didn't

1094
01:08:39.039 --> 01:08:40.000
you ever tell me?

1095
01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:47.199
I'm That's how he is, because he is good and honest.

1096
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:48.920
He's not like but.

1097
01:08:51.399 --> 01:09:02.720
He's he's good and honest, and he will just say,

1098
01:09:03.039 --> 01:09:04.119
if you've kept.

1099
01:09:04.039 --> 01:09:05.600
This from me, what else?

1100
01:09:08.880 --> 01:09:14.840
But if if I go to the interview and I'm

1101
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:17.760
just like, I don't know anything, I don't know anything,

1102
01:09:19.560 --> 01:09:24.680
I mean, what if they catch me lying and then

1103
01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:25.680
what happens?

1104
01:09:26.039 --> 01:09:27.000
I have no idea.

1105
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:32.520
I have no idea. I mean, they told me that

1106
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:35.439
day that Brian did all that to me. They told

1107
01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:39.239
me that the Brian he's been saying this, that or

1108
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:42.760
the other. I then told me all consequent and come

1109
01:09:42.840 --> 01:09:44.640
to find out, one of the attorneys told me that

1110
01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:47.560
they went in there to talk to him because they

1111
01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:50.199
had found him and they wouldn't been to talk to him,

1112
01:09:50.239 --> 01:09:52.520
and that he chance and was already there and he'd

1113
01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:56.279
say one word. So I don't know. So what my

1114
01:09:56.359 --> 01:09:59.000
point telling you that is they could say we know

1115
01:09:59.119 --> 01:10:00.800
you know, they could say can say whatever they want

1116
01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:02.239
to say, and it's legal for them to do that.

1117
01:10:02.560 --> 01:10:06.119
So whether they ever say we know you're lying or

1118
01:10:06.159 --> 01:10:08.439
we whatever, I mean, you don't know you have not

1119
01:10:08.560 --> 01:10:11.760
yet it's true or not, because I usually find out

1120
01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:15.640
laer let's stat from truth and ye had the guy

1121
01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:20.279
asked me about you, but he just asked me about

1122
01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:24.239
our relationship or whatever that guy minds.

1123
01:10:24.279 --> 01:10:30.319
When he was fishing me in the he started questions.

1124
01:10:30.039 --> 01:10:32.920
When you went to the police, Yeah, but I mean

1125
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:36.880
it was just what was your relationship stuff like that.

1126
01:10:37.159 --> 01:10:40.399
Wasn't anything about market. Marcus's name didn't come up or

1127
01:10:41.439 --> 01:10:44.760
anything like that. Well, I'm sure if they I would

1128
01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:46.560
guess if they were doing this to you, they're doing

1129
01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:48.439
this to Marcus. I mean, I don't but I don't know.

1130
01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:52.520
I don't know, but that I'm going to when I

1131
01:10:52.600 --> 01:10:57.960
get back, I'm going to I'm gonna get it just like.

1132
01:11:00.319 --> 01:11:03.199
My They called me while I was in town. I

1133
01:11:03.279 --> 01:11:06.359
don't know how they know I was in town, and

1134
01:11:06.760 --> 01:11:12.000
so I'm not I'm gonna get like a just like

1135
01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:13.520
a throwaway phone.

1136
01:11:14.079 --> 01:11:18.000
Because God, who knows.

1137
01:11:18.279 --> 01:11:24.880
I mean, I don't know. I'm just scared. I just

1138
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:27.199
feel I just feel like, why did they keep.

1139
01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:31.159
Calling me, like calling me this weekend.

1140
01:11:32.640 --> 01:11:35.159
And left a message that they knew I was in town.

1141
01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:40.920
So I think that they're listening to me, probably, I mean,

1142
01:11:40.960 --> 01:11:45.399
I don't know, but I think could be. I don't know.

1143
01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:47.840
I mean I would My advice to you is to

1144
01:11:47.960 --> 01:11:49.000
just is to talk to Rocky.

1145
01:11:49.760 --> 01:11:52.800
I can't I cannot do that.

1146
01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:54.960
I don't have anywhere to go.

1147
01:11:55.239 --> 01:11:56.720
I don't even have a job.

1148
01:11:59.199 --> 01:12:00.640
I just don't think it's going to be what you

1149
01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:05.279
think it's gonna be. I really don't. And I don't

1150
01:12:05.319 --> 01:12:08.800
know how you can be married to him for the

1151
01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:12.960
next time many years and not saying anything if it's

1152
01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:13.840
bothering me that bad.

1153
01:12:15.279 --> 01:12:19.199
It wasn't bothering me until I got a sena, until.

1154
01:12:18.920 --> 01:12:26.039
I have to do it. Yeah, mm hmm, that's it,

1155
01:12:28.319 --> 01:12:31.960
I can think. But I think he would then then

1156
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:33.960
to be him holding you, you know. I mean, I

1157
01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:35.680
don't think he would be like.

1158
01:12:35.800 --> 01:12:41.680
Goodbye, it is starting to hard, I'm gonna have to

1159
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:42.079
go for.

1160
01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:45.640
I'm gonna have to go.

1161
01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:50.960
So that's I mean, after hearing all this, that's what

1162
01:12:51.079 --> 01:12:52.880
I think. And I think that you're wrong. I think

1163
01:12:52.920 --> 01:12:56.960
that he's I think you're right about him being a kind,

1164
01:12:57.000 --> 01:12:59.920
good person, and I think that I mean that these

1165
01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:04.920
are things that people told you years after Mike died.

1166
01:13:05.479 --> 01:13:07.560
I just I don't think he's gonna he's gonna be

1167
01:13:07.720 --> 01:13:10.119
like we're getting divorced than never talking to you again.

1168
01:13:10.479 --> 01:13:14.000
I really don't. But I mean, you know, I'm better,

1169
01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:15.439
but I don't.

1170
01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:19.159
I just don't.

1171
01:13:25.239 --> 01:13:32.239
H held over here, be careful.

1172
01:13:32.039 --> 01:13:33.199
All right, Yeah, I gotta go.

1173
01:13:33.560 --> 01:13:33.840
Okay.

1174
01:13:45.319 --> 01:13:47.399
That other voice on the tape is Denise Williams.

1175
01:13:47.479 --> 01:13:47.640
Roight.

1176
01:13:48.159 --> 01:13:48.359
Yes.

1177
01:13:49.159 --> 01:13:51.039
Do you see Denise Williams in the courtroom today?

1178
01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:51.520
Yes?

1179
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:51.800
I do.

1180
01:13:52.199 --> 01:13:54.920
Can you point her out and identify an autical clothing

1181
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:55.600
that she's wearing.

1182
01:13:56.640 --> 01:13:59.279
Yes, she's right over here, on to the right of me,

1183
01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:00.800
and she's wearing a gray sweater.

1184
01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:07.279
Had the record reflect that the witnesses the Denise Williams prof.

1185
01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:25.239
Good morning, Miss Thomas, good morning. That tape recording we

1186
01:14:25.439 --> 01:14:28.319
just heard, was it fdl e's idea for you to

1187
01:14:28.680 --> 01:14:32.279
cry and be upset? Is that the natural.

1188
01:14:35.439 --> 01:14:40.439
I don't remember having it. I don't understand the question.

1189
01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:44.039
I guess well, you indicated that FDLI had set you

1190
01:14:44.199 --> 01:14:46.000
up with a little bit of a script about having

1191
01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:50.279
a subpoena correct told you as an investigative source to

1192
01:14:50.359 --> 01:14:55.159
make calls to Denise Williams. Yes, during this course of

1193
01:14:55.199 --> 01:14:58.000
time that you're doing that, how many times did you

1194
01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:02.720
talk with Denise Williams on the phone prior to recording

1195
01:15:03.079 --> 01:15:04.319
that get you a call.

1196
01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:11.359
As a confidential source or just in general?

1197
01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:12.359
Do you mean in general?

1198
01:15:12.439 --> 01:15:14.680
How often let me help you out here. Let's just

1199
01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:18.960
pick a narrow time frame. Let's say beginning January one

1200
01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:23.600
of this year, twenty eighteen. Okay, okay, as I understand

1201
01:15:23.600 --> 01:15:27.319
that this phone call was recorded when sometime in February

1202
01:15:27.359 --> 01:15:30.680
of twenty eighteen, Yes, sir, okay, So let's just begin

1203
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:34.079
with January one. How many times do you think you

1204
01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:38.239
would have spoken with Denise Williams on the telephone prior

1205
01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:39.520
to this recorded call?

1206
01:15:41.560 --> 01:15:42.600
Probably every day?

1207
01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:49.600
Would you also have texted back and forth? Yes, you

1208
01:15:49.680 --> 01:15:51.960
talk about the same types of things that you talk about,

1209
01:15:52.319 --> 01:15:54.279
your husband's getting coffee driving.

1210
01:15:58.840 --> 01:15:59.079
Yes.

1211
01:16:01.079 --> 01:16:04.039
How many times did you record all of those conversations?

1212
01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:10.000
I cannot remember specifically how many I recorded.

1213
01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:15.399
But it was more than one, yes, sir, and you

1214
01:16:15.520 --> 01:16:18.279
sent all of those recordings to the Florida Department Law Enforcement.

1215
01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:26.439
I'm not sure that I understand every one of our

1216
01:16:27.159 --> 01:16:31.199
everyday conversations or every one of the recorded conversations.

1217
01:16:31.439 --> 01:16:33.359
Let's start with the recorded conversations.

1218
01:16:33.760 --> 01:16:36.720
Yes, I gave all of those to f Daily Yes, sir.

1219
01:16:36.920 --> 01:16:38.279
How many of those do you think there were?

1220
01:16:39.079 --> 01:16:46.720
I think there were maybe four to maybe four to.

1221
01:16:46.880 --> 01:16:51.159
Six, And those were all the conversations that were scripted

1222
01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:55.279
out by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to lie

1223
01:16:55.359 --> 01:16:57.640
to Miss Williams that you had received the subpoena went

1224
01:16:57.640 --> 01:16:57.960
in back.

1225
01:16:58.000 --> 01:16:58.359
You had not.

1226
01:17:01.119 --> 01:17:04.119
When I was working forty l A, yes, sir, So.

1227
01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:05.600
It would be fair to say when you were making

1228
01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:08.439
these calls with Miss william Bullworth for fifty LA and

1229
01:17:08.520 --> 01:17:10.840
you were at least lying in part about what was

1230
01:17:10.880 --> 01:17:26.640
actually going on. Yes, And that phone call speaks for herself.

1231
01:17:26.680 --> 01:17:27.319
So the jury's heard.

1232
01:17:27.399 --> 01:17:28.039
They get here again.

1233
01:17:28.079 --> 01:17:29.680
So I'm not going to get into what everybody said.

1234
01:17:29.880 --> 01:17:35.079
What you said only to suggest that Denise's your friend,

1235
01:17:35.159 --> 01:17:35.439
isn't she?

1236
01:17:37.760 --> 01:17:37.960
Yes?

1237
01:17:38.640 --> 01:17:41.000
And as that phone call was ending, she was trying

1238
01:17:41.039 --> 01:17:42.840
to be a friend. She's tony to be safe, wasn't she?

1239
01:17:43.479 --> 01:17:43.920
Yes, sir?

1240
01:17:44.319 --> 01:17:46.399
And you two probably talked the day after that phone

1241
01:17:46.439 --> 01:17:54.560
called in't you yes? Now you testified on direct examination

1242
01:17:55.239 --> 01:17:59.560
that you suspected that Brian Winchester and Denise Williams were

1243
01:17:59.720 --> 01:18:01.079
having affair. You suspected that.

1244
01:18:03.520 --> 01:18:06.119
Yes, sir, You don't know that d.

1245
01:18:08.720 --> 01:18:13.199
I never caught them kissing or I never saw with

1246
01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:23.479
my own eyes them specifically in a physical embrace. No, sir,

1247
01:18:23.680 --> 01:18:24.640
I never caught them.

1248
01:18:27.760 --> 01:18:29.720
You don't know if they were having a fair.

1249
01:18:29.600 --> 01:18:36.520
As a fact, I never caught them in the act.

1250
01:18:36.760 --> 01:18:38.760
That is correct. That is a fact.

1251
01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:41.640
You had talked about.

1252
01:18:46.840 --> 01:18:47.039
Well.

1253
01:18:48.479 --> 01:18:50.039
Brian was a selfish husband, wasn't he?

1254
01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:51.439
Yes?

1255
01:18:51.560 --> 01:18:51.960
He was.

1256
01:18:53.319 --> 01:18:56.920
And you were having a troubled relationship with Brian Winchester

1257
01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:01.720
well before your separation in September of two thousand and one. Correct, yes, sir.

1258
01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:05.840
And it is an affair to say that in two

1259
01:19:05.960 --> 01:19:10.399
thousand you were basically sleeping in a different room from

1260
01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:11.199
mister Winchester.

1261
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:16.720
Yes, sir, that's fair to say.

1262
01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:19.720
You're either sleeping in Stafford's room or you're sleeping on

1263
01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:25.079
the couch, remember me. Yes, you had mentioned earlier that

1264
01:19:25.239 --> 01:19:29.359
you had some suspicions about Brian. Do you know who

1265
01:19:29.399 --> 01:19:30.520
Angela Stafford is?

1266
01:19:31.960 --> 01:19:32.960
I do know who she is.

1267
01:19:33.800 --> 01:19:37.279
Did you ever learn that Angela Stafford and your then husband,

1268
01:19:37.319 --> 01:19:40.920
Brian Winchester had gone out to claiming Plaza after Denise's

1269
01:19:41.079 --> 01:19:41.720
baby shower?

1270
01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:46.319
Can you repeat that?

1271
01:19:46.439 --> 01:19:46.720
Please?

1272
01:19:47.000 --> 01:19:48.520
Did you know that?

1273
01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:49.159
Where you?

1274
01:19:49.800 --> 01:19:53.359
Do you remember when Denise had her baby shower? Pretty inside?

1275
01:19:58.079 --> 01:20:01.439
I'm sure I was there, I am not at whose

1276
01:20:01.479 --> 01:20:04.800
house was it at? I think she may have had

1277
01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:05.239
a couple.

1278
01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:09.840
Do you ever recall having or attending a baby shower

1279
01:20:10.239 --> 01:20:13.000
for miss Williams at the home on Antonio Lewis.

1280
01:20:22.359 --> 01:20:26.399
I don't have a recollection of that specifically, did something

1281
01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:29.079
happen at the baby shower?

1282
01:20:31.159 --> 01:20:33.079
May I feel? I asked you another question.

1283
01:20:33.680 --> 01:20:36.720
Okay, So you don't know if.

1284
01:20:37.760 --> 01:20:41.119
Your then husband was out seeing or out going out

1285
01:20:41.199 --> 01:20:44.680
to clubs with other women other than your circle of friends.

1286
01:20:44.720 --> 01:20:45.199
You don't.

1287
01:20:47.600 --> 01:20:53.560
I had not caught him doing that either. I mean,

1288
01:20:53.680 --> 01:20:58.880
I can't say because I don't know. I don't want

1289
01:20:58.920 --> 01:21:01.159
to say he wasn't because I don't know, but I

1290
01:21:01.239 --> 01:21:02.800
can't say that he was either.

1291
01:21:03.600 --> 01:21:07.640
Well, it's Thomas. We're here in a felony trial, my

1292
01:21:07.760 --> 01:21:12.760
plans on trial. You've testified during direct examination, You've answered

1293
01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:16.079
the government's questions. I'm trying to figure out what you

1294
01:21:16.199 --> 01:21:17.439
know and what your guests there.

1295
01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:21.560
A question, mister, what do you know? That witness is void?

1296
01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:23.520
Int your question to ask a question?

1297
01:21:26.680 --> 01:21:29.239
Do you know for a fact whether or not Brian

1298
01:21:29.279 --> 01:21:35.439
Winchester was cheating on you when you were married to him? No,

1299
01:21:41.199 --> 01:21:43.760
the Virgin Suicide movie received. Do you know for a

1300
01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:45.520
fact whether or not that has anything to do with

1301
01:21:45.640 --> 01:21:46.319
Denise Williams.

1302
01:21:48.760 --> 01:21:51.439
Brian told me that he took Denise to the movie.

1303
01:21:52.199 --> 01:21:54.359
Do you think that that going to the movie has

1304
01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:56.560
anything to do or approves in any way they were

1305
01:21:56.600 --> 01:21:57.159
having an affair?

1306
01:22:00.479 --> 01:22:00.880
Mm hmm.

1307
01:22:04.119 --> 01:22:05.920
I didn't know he was going to take her to

1308
01:22:06.039 --> 01:22:09.960
the movie beforehand, and he did it without telling me,

1309
01:22:10.640 --> 01:22:13.079
and he told me later that it was her that

1310
01:22:13.159 --> 01:22:17.359
he had taken. So I guess, no, it doesn't prove anything.

1311
01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:20.520
He just took someone else on a date without me knowing.

1312
01:22:20.640 --> 01:22:20.920
But I.

1313
01:22:22.680 --> 01:22:25.199
I guess I can't.

1314
01:22:27.479 --> 01:22:28.079
And when was it?

1315
01:22:28.159 --> 01:22:29.000
When was that movie?

1316
01:22:35.960 --> 01:22:38.239
To be honest, I would have to google to see

1317
01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:39.000
when it came out.

1318
01:22:39.119 --> 01:22:41.399
I don't remember. I'm sorry.

1319
01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:44.840
You testified earlier that you went to Panama City for

1320
01:22:45.000 --> 01:22:48.239
Denise's thirtieth birthday party and you struggled with it because

1321
01:22:48.279 --> 01:22:52.600
it was a difficult time. He didn't want to go. Correct.

1322
01:22:55.000 --> 01:22:57.359
You've seen the photographs from the State Attorney's Office that

1323
01:22:57.359 --> 01:22:59.840
have been introduced to thatdence of you and miss Williams

1324
01:23:00.119 --> 01:23:01.880
Beach and you and this wings up club.

1325
01:23:06.760 --> 01:23:07.199
No I.

1326
01:23:08.760 --> 01:23:16.439
Man person wintrontium.

1327
01:23:27.560 --> 01:23:27.920
Samas.

1328
01:23:27.920 --> 01:23:30.279
I'm going to show you we've been introduced into evidence

1329
01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:35.960
to STAGS until it's seventeenth positive several photographs.

1330
01:23:38.119 --> 01:23:38.880
Please review these.

1331
01:23:38.920 --> 01:23:41.680
Please do not answer saying it to you Pat after.

1332
01:23:42.000 --> 01:24:10.439
This kah, Yeah, these Thomas were those photographs from that

1333
01:24:10.720 --> 01:24:12.159
weekend trip to Panama.

1334
01:24:11.920 --> 01:24:12.399
City in.

1335
01:24:13.920 --> 01:24:17.399
Two thousand, Yes, sir, And those pictures accurately depict you

1336
01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:20.119
and those photographs, yes, sir. And is that you and

1337
01:24:20.319 --> 01:24:22.640
Miss Williams smiling and staying next to each other in

1338
01:24:22.640 --> 01:24:25.680
a bikini, Yes, sir. That picked you and Miss Williams

1339
01:24:25.680 --> 01:24:28.880
smiling out at my gloves. Yes, sir, picked you and

1340
01:24:28.960 --> 01:24:31.720
Miss Williams essentially just having a good times two friends.

1341
01:24:32.880 --> 01:24:35.439
Yes, sir, not perfect, but.

1342
01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:48.079
Hyah h.

1343
01:24:56.560 --> 01:25:05.600
H, Miss Thomas, when you were making these controlled calls,

1344
01:25:06.840 --> 01:25:11.479
as it relates to my clients, when you had learned

1345
01:25:11.600 --> 01:25:14.399
from the Department of Law Enforcement that Mike Williams remains

1346
01:25:14.439 --> 01:25:14.720
had been.

1347
01:25:14.720 --> 01:25:23.159
Fact correct, No, sir, I didn't know that. At the

1348
01:25:23.239 --> 01:25:24.560
time of the controlled calls.

1349
01:25:25.239 --> 01:25:29.760
You were not aware that in December of twenty and seventeen,

1350
01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:33.720
there was a press release in Florida Department Law Enforcement

1351
01:25:33.720 --> 01:25:36.359
announced that they had found Mike Williams remains and reclassified

1352
01:25:36.359 --> 01:25:37.319
the case of the homicide.

1353
01:25:37.960 --> 01:25:39.840
I'm sorry, yes, sir, I did know that.

1354
01:25:40.079 --> 01:26:04.199
I wait a second, can can you tell me the

1355
01:26:04.319 --> 01:26:07.479
date of when the press conference was, ma'am.

1356
01:26:07.600 --> 01:26:13.800
Unfortunately, okay, we try another question that might help it.

1357
01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:15.079
So I'm trying to be a vasive It's.

1358
01:26:14.960 --> 01:26:18.079
Not like I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be evasive either,

1359
01:26:18.159 --> 01:26:19.119
but I'm just trying.

1360
01:26:21.000 --> 01:26:25.359
Did you learn all right? You have a son five,

1361
01:26:25.439 --> 01:26:32.239
Brian Winchester. Correct, Yes, and that means you have a

1362
01:26:32.319 --> 01:26:38.239
connection to Marcus Winchester because that is your son's grandfather. Yes, sir,

1363
01:26:39.560 --> 01:26:43.840
you are aware that your former husband and the father

1364
01:26:44.000 --> 01:26:47.680
of your son, kidnapped Anise Williams a gunpoint on August fifth,

1365
01:26:47.720 --> 01:26:49.399
twenty sixteenth. Correct, Yes, sir.

1366
01:26:49.800 --> 01:26:50.239
You know that.

1367
01:26:50.720 --> 01:26:54.399
Yes, and you know that from not only your own

1368
01:26:54.399 --> 01:26:58.960
personal experience, but you also spoke with Denise Williams that day. Correct, Yes, sir.

1369
01:27:00.840 --> 01:27:05.119
And you have spoken with Denise Williams constantly, work fairly

1370
01:27:05.199 --> 01:27:13.920
continuously after August fifth of twenty sixteen, correct, Yes, sir.

1371
01:27:14.119 --> 01:27:15.520
Okay, and these could.

1372
01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:18.760
Be almost considered daily phone calls or text messages. Yes, sir,

1373
01:27:19.960 --> 01:27:23.439
So you would have known in August of twenty sixteen

1374
01:27:23.600 --> 01:27:26.880
that your former husband was in jail and was facing

1375
01:27:27.199 --> 01:27:32.039
felony charges. I knew he was in jail yes, and

1376
01:27:32.199 --> 01:27:35.680
you also knew and I believe his referenced on your

1377
01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:39.000
phone call. You also knew that, specially agent Mike Devane.

1378
01:27:39.039 --> 01:27:42.159
He had spoken with Denise Williams at the Leon Kanny

1379
01:27:42.159 --> 01:27:45.359
Sheriff's office when she was there to talk about her kidnap.

1380
01:27:45.720 --> 01:27:50.119
You call that, I do recall that, but she did not.

1381
01:27:50.720 --> 01:27:52.880
She did tell me that there was someone there, but

1382
01:27:53.039 --> 01:27:53.720
not right away.

1383
01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:59.359
Did you later in your communications with miss Williams become

1384
01:27:59.399 --> 01:28:02.359
aware that that the fd ely agent she spoke to

1385
01:28:02.960 --> 01:28:07.439
on August fifth, twenty sixteen, was agent Mike Debany. Yes,

1386
01:28:09.119 --> 01:28:13.239
and you learned about this shortly after or did it

1387
01:28:13.319 --> 01:28:16.880
take time before you and her discussed specifically Aged Deviani.

1388
01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:22.600
They took some time before we discussed him, but it.

1389
01:28:22.640 --> 01:28:25.199
Became some point in your communication that you and she

1390
01:28:25.359 --> 01:28:27.359
could identify who these people were.

1391
01:28:29.119 --> 01:28:31.840
No, we never really had. We just knew the one

1392
01:28:32.239 --> 01:28:32.960
Mike Devaney.

1393
01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:35.960
And isn't it true that she told you she did

1394
01:28:36.000 --> 01:28:39.479
not have a good relationship or positive feeling about mister

1395
01:28:39.600 --> 01:28:42.399
Vany after the way she was questioned on August fifth?

1396
01:28:42.600 --> 01:28:43.800
She said he was mean to her.

1397
01:28:44.000 --> 01:28:47.000
Okay, she said some other things too, probably, or of course.

1398
01:28:47.840 --> 01:28:48.359
She might have.

1399
01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:55.159
I mainly remember her saying that he was mean to her, and.

1400
01:29:00.239 --> 01:29:02.960
That's also why there's some so you know from your

1401
01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:06.239
previous communications with her. When you're talking about Agent Debany

1402
01:29:06.279 --> 01:29:09.640
on that controlled call, you know there's a history between

1403
01:29:09.720 --> 01:29:12.079
those two, and you already know that Miss Williams doesn't

1404
01:29:12.239 --> 01:29:13.239
like Agent Debate.

1405
01:29:15.880 --> 01:29:16.279
Correct.

1406
01:29:28.840 --> 01:29:32.000
There are things in that that a recording. Again, the

1407
01:29:32.039 --> 01:29:36.600
recording speaks for itself, but the name Charles Bumper comes

1408
01:29:36.680 --> 01:29:41.920
up in their whole confusing stuff about Charles Bumper. But

1409
01:29:42.800 --> 01:29:44.640
who was Charles? Who is Charles Bumper?

1410
01:29:46.359 --> 01:29:46.479
Uh?

1411
01:29:46.680 --> 01:29:51.880
He was a man that Denise had worked with and

1412
01:29:53.720 --> 01:29:55.279
she I guess she had dated him?

1413
01:29:57.600 --> 01:30:00.399
Did she date him about the same time that that

1414
01:30:00.520 --> 01:30:08.199
you were getting formally divorced from mister Winchester. I approximately,

1415
01:30:12.159 --> 01:30:15.600
And their relationship was open and notorious. People knew that

1416
01:30:15.680 --> 01:30:18.640
they were dating or you knew that you that you

1417
01:30:18.760 --> 01:30:21.000
knew that Denise and Charles Parker were kant.

1418
01:30:23.720 --> 01:30:26.520
Well, I had found that out from Brian, I didn't.

1419
01:30:26.840 --> 01:30:32.000
She and I were not communicating a lot after after

1420
01:30:32.199 --> 01:30:37.000
I had separated from Brian. Our relationship was not very

1421
01:30:37.079 --> 01:30:40.359
close for a couple of years around that time, so

1422
01:30:42.960 --> 01:30:46.239
I knew that from Brian, And you know we weren't talking.

1423
01:30:46.479 --> 01:30:49.960
We weren't during that time, We weren't on talking on

1424
01:30:50.039 --> 01:30:52.640
a daily basis like we were.

1425
01:30:54.279 --> 01:30:54.760
Currently.

1426
01:30:55.800 --> 01:30:57.920
Would it be fair to say that your relationship with

1427
01:30:58.079 --> 01:31:02.640
Missus Williams became closer or after she filed for divorce

1428
01:31:02.680 --> 01:31:07.000
from Brian Winchester. Yes, that would put you too in

1429
01:31:07.079 --> 01:31:09.680
the Brian Winchester's wives club together.

1430
01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:11.039
Yes.

1431
01:31:12.840 --> 01:31:15.840
Did she have many of the same Did she talk

1432
01:31:15.920 --> 01:31:17.520
with you about many of the same concerns she had

1433
01:31:17.560 --> 01:31:20.720
trying to divorce Brian Winchester as you had had? Yes,

1434
01:31:21.399 --> 01:31:25.479
couldn't get documents correct, Brian Winchester didn't want to say no,

1435
01:31:25.920 --> 01:31:26.720
didn't want to give up.

1436
01:31:27.279 --> 01:31:27.680
Correct.

1437
01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:31.560
And in fact, when you went through and finally got

1438
01:31:31.600 --> 01:31:34.479
your divorce from mister Winchester, I believe the final hearing

1439
01:31:34.600 --> 01:31:35.079
was right here.

1440
01:31:35.000 --> 01:31:36.760
In the sporthouse, wasn't it correct?

1441
01:31:37.399 --> 01:31:40.800
And if I recall correctly from previous in your own knowledge,

1442
01:31:41.079 --> 01:31:44.479
mister Winchester sat in one row behind you and try correct.

1443
01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:48.439
But to be fair, mister Winchester never really tried any

1444
01:31:48.479 --> 01:31:53.000
reconciliation attempts with you. No, he just didn't want you

1445
01:31:53.119 --> 01:31:57.760
to be divorced from correct. And then once you got

1446
01:31:57.840 --> 01:32:00.319
your finalized divorce and you were no longer married to

1447
01:32:00.359 --> 01:32:03.520
mister Winchester, you started a relationship with your current husband,

1448
01:32:03.560 --> 01:32:08.199
mister Thomas. Correct, right, And Brian didn't like that, did

1449
01:32:08.279 --> 01:32:11.960
he know? Did he try to stop your marriage from

1450
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:12.600
mister Thomas.

1451
01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:15.199
He did.

1452
01:32:17.199 --> 01:32:17.239
So.

1453
01:32:17.359 --> 01:32:21.439
As soon as you became engaged or romantically involved with

1454
01:32:21.520 --> 01:32:24.920
another man, mister Winchester's efforts to try to bring you

1455
01:32:25.039 --> 01:32:30.760
back intensified. Yes, because up until the divorce he hadn't

1456
01:32:30.760 --> 01:32:31.359
really cared.

1457
01:32:31.199 --> 01:32:32.079
That, that is correct.

1458
01:32:35.520 --> 01:32:38.239
Now, you were finally able to marry mister Thomas in

1459
01:32:38.279 --> 01:32:44.000
two thousand and four, yes, and thereafter mister Winchester and

1460
01:32:44.199 --> 01:32:48.800
missus mister Williams and miss Winchester got married two thousand

1461
01:32:48.800 --> 01:32:49.760
and five, correct.

1462
01:32:50.119 --> 01:32:50.560
I think that.

1463
01:32:51.960 --> 01:32:52.159
Yes.

1464
01:32:52.720 --> 01:32:54.279
I believe it was around two thousand and.

1465
01:32:54.279 --> 01:33:06.880
Five when.

1466
01:33:08.880 --> 01:33:12.199
The relationship with you and miss Williams that tended to

1467
01:33:12.680 --> 01:33:15.279
get better after the marriage because Miss Williams was now

1468
01:33:15.399 --> 01:33:22.439
essentially your son's stepmom, and you had more communication now

1469
01:33:22.520 --> 01:33:24.920
and more contact with Miss Williams because this is before

1470
01:33:24.960 --> 01:33:27.439
the ex wives club, correct. Correct, Now you're just in

1471
01:33:27.560 --> 01:33:28.680
the co parenting club.

1472
01:33:28.960 --> 01:33:29.319
Correct.

1473
01:33:29.840 --> 01:33:34.319
And Denise is good to Stafford wasn't she Yes, she

1474
01:33:34.439 --> 01:33:40.000
looked after Yes, and isn't it true even after.

1475
01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:42.119
Well, let me ask us.

1476
01:33:42.279 --> 01:33:45.039
As part of your divorce agreement with mister Winchester back

1477
01:33:45.079 --> 01:33:47.840
in two thousand and three, was mister Winchester obligated to

1478
01:33:47.920 --> 01:33:55.079
provide private school tuition? Yes, sir, And as Stafford grew older,

1479
01:33:55.159 --> 01:33:58.880
he ended up attending the McClay School. Correct, Yes, you

1480
01:33:58.920 --> 01:33:59.600
went to high school?

1481
01:33:59.720 --> 01:33:59.920
Play.

1482
01:34:00.199 --> 01:34:03.239
Yes, how about the time he started high school at

1483
01:34:03.319 --> 01:34:06.920
McLay was about at the same time that miss Williams

1484
01:34:06.920 --> 01:34:08.359
and mister Winchester are separated.

1485
01:34:08.399 --> 01:34:09.600
Correct, Yes, that's correct.

1486
01:34:10.880 --> 01:34:13.359
Do you know in your review of the circumstances related

1487
01:34:13.399 --> 01:34:16.000
to your son whether or not Miss Williams actually paid

1488
01:34:16.000 --> 01:34:17.319
Stafford's tuition of McLay.

1489
01:34:18.319 --> 01:34:21.840
That was what she had told me, But I never

1490
01:34:22.399 --> 01:34:25.119
you know, I don't. I wasn't on the financial part,

1491
01:34:25.319 --> 01:34:28.399
so I can't say who paid.

1492
01:34:28.439 --> 01:34:29.680
But that is what she told me.

1493
01:34:29.840 --> 01:34:33.600
Yes, And Stafford's tuition ended up being paid. Yes, And

1494
01:34:33.720 --> 01:34:35.359
this was at a time when she wasn't even in

1495
01:34:35.479 --> 01:34:39.239
a relation in a ongoing relationship with mister Winchester. She

1496
01:34:39.319 --> 01:34:40.319
was trying to get divorced from.

1497
01:34:41.399 --> 01:34:41.600
Yes.

1498
01:34:56.159 --> 01:34:57.319
Finally, when you were.

1499
01:35:02.079 --> 01:35:04.159
When you were working with the.

1500
01:35:04.359 --> 01:35:08.800
Department of Law Enforcement in February of twenty eighteen. That

1501
01:35:09.000 --> 01:35:13.439
was before you found out conclusively that your former husband

1502
01:35:14.159 --> 01:35:15.560
had chilled Mike Williams, wasn't it.

1503
01:35:28.560 --> 01:35:32.079
May I just kind of present a timeline how I'm

1504
01:35:32.159 --> 01:35:35.760
remembering it, though I can't remember the verbatim dates.

1505
01:35:37.479 --> 01:35:46.960
There was the kidnapping, and I started working with fd LY.

1506
01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:53.479
Around the time that Brian was sentenced, like after his sentencing.

1507
01:36:00.119 --> 01:36:11.680
So, yes, that's correct.

1508
01:36:11.960 --> 01:36:14.199
I'm sorry it took me a minute, just but yes,

1509
01:36:15.239 --> 01:36:21.319
at the time that I recorded the phone calls, I

1510
01:36:21.479 --> 01:36:23.319
had known that Mike had been found.

1511
01:36:24.600 --> 01:36:26.680
Well, let me try to back up a little bit,

1512
01:36:26.720 --> 01:36:29.880
because I'm asking more, not necessarily when Mike has found

1513
01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:34.920
I'm asking when you found out that Brian was the

1514
01:36:35.279 --> 01:36:37.399
man who in fact killed Mike Walliams.

1515
01:36:38.039 --> 01:36:40.960
I found that out on the day that the press

1516
01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:45.279
conference happened. Because when.

1517
01:36:47.680 --> 01:36:48.520
Should I keep going?

1518
01:36:49.640 --> 01:36:53.920
I'm sorry, all right.

1519
01:36:53.880 --> 01:36:56.359
I'm gonna try to lead it a little bit better, Okay,

1520
01:36:56.720 --> 01:36:59.720
help you out a little bit. There was a press

1521
01:36:59.720 --> 01:37:03.840
confer in December of twenty and seventeen. Mister Feuchs was

1522
01:37:03.920 --> 01:37:06.479
there along with that Fly agency. Do you recall that

1523
01:37:06.600 --> 01:37:09.640
press conference yes, sir. And at that press conference it

1524
01:37:09.720 --> 01:37:12.760
was announced that Mike williams remains had been to Scock

1525
01:37:13.720 --> 01:37:16.640
remember that, yes, sir, But he did not say that

1526
01:37:16.760 --> 01:37:18.920
press conference who killed Mike Williams?

1527
01:37:19.000 --> 01:37:19.199
Did it?

1528
01:37:21.840 --> 01:37:24.239
No, sir, You're right, I'm sorry.

1529
01:37:25.000 --> 01:37:25.319
All right?

1530
01:37:28.560 --> 01:37:35.119
After the press conference, you work with FDLA in February

1531
01:37:35.119 --> 01:37:38.479
of twenty and eighteen. Man, I'm gonna need you to

1532
01:37:38.520 --> 01:37:43.680
danger yes, from the port Worth place. Yes, did fd

1533
01:37:43.960 --> 01:37:46.720
LY during this time you were working with them? Ever

1534
01:37:46.960 --> 01:37:50.920
tell you that they knew that your former husband, Brian

1535
01:37:50.960 --> 01:37:53.399
Winchester had actually killed Mike Williams.

1536
01:37:55.159 --> 01:37:59.319
Yes, they told me what his testimony was, what he

1537
01:37:59.560 --> 01:38:02.159
they told told me what he said he had done.

1538
01:38:02.520 --> 01:38:05.000
And they told you that before you started working on

1539
01:38:05.119 --> 01:38:10.920
recording phone calls. Yes, nothing further on direct.

1540
01:38:14.840 --> 01:38:15.199
Was Thomas.

1541
01:38:15.279 --> 01:38:19.279
You would agree with me that affairs, especially when you're

1542
01:38:19.359 --> 01:38:22.399
married or meant the kept secret except fair.

1543
01:38:23.199 --> 01:38:24.119
Yes, that's fair.

1544
01:38:26.640 --> 01:38:30.399
You don't know that your then husband, Brian Winchester was

1545
01:38:30.479 --> 01:38:33.119
having an affair with Denise Williams because you never caught

1546
01:38:33.199 --> 01:38:38.000
them red handed, that's correct, But you had some pretty

1547
01:38:38.039 --> 01:38:39.119
high suspicions about it.

1548
01:38:40.359 --> 01:38:40.840
Is that fair?

1549
01:38:41.319 --> 01:38:41.720
Yes, sir?

1550
01:38:43.279 --> 01:38:46.560
And we talked about the recorded calls and the number

1551
01:38:46.600 --> 01:38:50.319
of recordings. Of the number of recordings that you made,

1552
01:38:50.880 --> 01:38:53.279
does that change the context of the recording that was

1553
01:38:53.319 --> 01:39:04.960
played for the jury? The call that was played for

1554
01:39:05.039 --> 01:39:08.760
the jury? Does that change based on how many other

1555
01:39:08.840 --> 01:39:12.359
recordings that you made with mister No that was the recording,

1556
01:39:14.159 --> 01:39:16.279
the day to day calls where you just called and

1557
01:39:16.359 --> 01:39:20.359
you were talking to your friend about day to day life.

1558
01:39:21.600 --> 01:39:25.680
Do those change the content or the context of the

1559
01:39:25.800 --> 01:39:27.359
recording that the jury heard today?

1560
01:39:28.239 --> 01:39:28.960
No, they don't.

1561
01:39:32.079 --> 01:39:36.920
Whether you were working off from the script or not,

1562
01:39:38.039 --> 01:39:42.159
does that change the context or the content of the

1563
01:39:42.239 --> 01:39:43.920
call that the jury heard today?

1564
01:39:46.520 --> 01:39:46.560
No?

1565
01:39:47.560 --> 01:39:48.159
Nothing from them.

1566
01:39:48.560 --> 01:39:49.600
Hey, jury, I have the question.

1567
01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:53.279
Breaks your question down, please, we'll got a side park.

1568
01:40:46.640 --> 01:40:47.159
The time as.

1569
01:40:47.239 --> 01:40:50.439
We have a couple of follow up questions from the jury.

1570
01:40:50.560 --> 01:40:54.640
The first one relates back to the date that mister

1571
01:40:55.079 --> 01:40:59.680
Mike Williams disappeared December sixteenth, two thousand.

1572
01:41:01.920 --> 01:41:04.119
Do you have any recollection.

1573
01:41:03.880 --> 01:41:10.439
From that time frame that stuck out to you concerning

1574
01:41:11.239 --> 01:41:20.800
either miss Williams or mister Winchester's behavior, interaction, anything specific

1575
01:41:20.960 --> 01:41:25.359
that stood out to you from that date or close

1576
01:41:25.439 --> 01:41:32.199
to that date, Any.

1577
01:41:32.159 --> 01:41:34.600
Any behavior that I saw between the two of them

1578
01:41:35.279 --> 01:41:44.520
or individually or individually, I can't recall any specific action.

1579
01:41:46.720 --> 01:41:49.479
And should I say just that day specifically.

1580
01:41:51.119 --> 01:41:53.439
I think that's what the Jerys are asking about. Do

1581
01:41:53.520 --> 01:41:56.399
you do you do you remember what happened?

1582
01:42:00.880 --> 01:42:06.439
I don't have any specific On that day. I did

1583
01:42:06.560 --> 01:42:08.720
not see Denise.

1584
01:42:09.079 --> 01:42:12.600
I had a phone call from her telling me it

1585
01:42:12.720 --> 01:42:15.279
was around lunchtime. She was telling me she was looking

1586
01:42:15.359 --> 01:42:16.760
for him and.

1587
01:42:19.000 --> 01:42:25.600
Brian that so I did not see her on that day. Brian,

1588
01:42:26.600 --> 01:42:27.359
he came.

1589
01:42:28.920 --> 01:42:38.600
Late to our family Christmas party. He in my mind

1590
01:42:39.159 --> 01:42:43.159
in the moments on that day, I was wrapping Christmas

1591
01:42:43.239 --> 01:42:48.479
presents and the plan was that he would get back

1592
01:42:48.560 --> 01:42:51.359
from hunting and we would leave and go together to

1593
01:42:53.439 --> 01:42:58.239
my family Christmas party in Caro, Georgia. And around two

1594
01:42:58.279 --> 01:43:02.359
o'clock I just left with Stafford because we were supposed

1595
01:43:02.359 --> 01:43:06.000
to be there at three, and Brian showed up later.

1596
01:43:08.520 --> 01:43:11.920
He showed up after we had open presence and everything

1597
01:43:12.039 --> 01:43:12.720
like that, and.

1598
01:43:16.039 --> 01:43:16.399
It was.

1599
01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:22.439
There was in that moment it just seemed as if

1600
01:43:23.720 --> 01:43:25.359
Mike had gone hunting and.

1601
01:43:25.479 --> 01:43:26.359
Just hadn't come back.

1602
01:43:27.039 --> 01:43:30.680
I didn't seemed so there wasn't anything unusual about mister

1603
01:43:30.720 --> 01:43:34.439
Winchester's behavior that you remember other than being late for

1604
01:43:34.520 --> 01:43:39.600
the party. Yes, sir, have you ever physically met Angelus Stafford?

1605
01:43:42.760 --> 01:43:43.520
I believe so.

1606
01:43:46.119 --> 01:43:53.640
I believe that we would have met at but and

1607
01:43:53.720 --> 01:43:57.279
I know who she is, but she was not someone

1608
01:43:57.399 --> 01:44:06.319
who as someone that you know, and back then, you know,

1609
01:44:06.439 --> 01:44:10.680
you didn't have Facebook and things like that where you

1610
01:44:10.840 --> 01:44:14.359
might recognize someone even though you didn't see them a lot.

1611
01:44:15.279 --> 01:44:18.279
I feel that I would have met her. I know

1612
01:44:18.439 --> 01:44:22.600
that I must have met her, but we were just acquaintances.

1613
01:44:25.760 --> 01:44:32.399
Did miss Williams appear emotionally distraught about the disappearance of

1614
01:44:32.479 --> 01:44:35.119
her husband we're talking about now, back in.

1615
01:44:36.640 --> 01:44:39.279
Like two thousand and early two thousand and one.

1616
01:44:46.199 --> 01:44:48.720
She did not.

1617
01:44:51.800 --> 01:45:04.920
Seem distraught in those days ure Mike was gone. I

1618
01:45:05.039 --> 01:45:07.159
can remember saying to Brian.

1619
01:45:09.039 --> 01:45:15.239
I think you've answered the question, Oh any fire, mister?

1620
01:45:15.319 --> 01:45:17.840
What all right? You can step down