Fatal Fortune: The Murder of Mike Williams Part 2

0:08 Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite. I'm your host Jim Chapman, and I'm back with the second episode in this brand new series I call Fatal Fortune. Last week I brought you into the case of Mike Williams, who went missing on December sixteenth of the year two thousand and I left off some sixteen years later after Mike went missing, when his former wife Denise shows up at the sheriff's office this is in Leon County, Florida, to report an attempted kidnapping by her estranged husband. In Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, also played you the full police recording from that day, and if you noticed, the last thirty minutes of that interview became more of an interrogation of Denise over the sixteen year disappearance of Mike, So that police interview ended, and of course, due to her allegations, police went to speak to and eventually arrested Mike Winchester for these charges of kidnapping as well as domestic assault and armed robbery. So they pick him up, and it's important to note that he's charged at the time with kidnapping as I just told you, but it's aggravated kidnapping, which in Florida carries a sentence of twenty five years to life. So Brian

1:41 was up against it. At his bond hearing, things even got worse for him as the judge denied any type of bond and it was a little while later Brian had some time to think about it. But a little while later, after being incarcerated awaiting this trial, that Brian went to the police through his attorney and he said he had some information on the Mike Williams disappearance that he would like to proffer. And for those of you not familiar with what a profit agreement is, it's an agreement saying that anything that you say to police you cannot be held accountable for. In addition, as part of his profer agreement, the state agreed not to seek a life sentence in the kidnapping case that he was being held for. They were still going to prosecute him, but they weren't going to seek the life part of twenty five to life. As a matter of fact, he would get less than that. So all told twenty to twenty five years for the kidnapping case. In total, immunity for anything that he told them in the Mike Williams case, and the state gave him everything he wanted, everything he asked for. There So, armed with this complete immunity, Brian told law enforcement that he murdered Mike and that Denise helped him plan these murders. Now, how did he accomplish

3:12 that murder? What were the details of that? Don't worry, I'm going to get into that. I'll circle back to it, but for now, a couple of points I want to make. First, y'all know, y'all know I hate plea agreements. I absolutely hate proffer deals. I can't stand them. This is one of the very few times I sort of get it without these guys story of what the fuck happened to Mike Williams. They knew that with every passing year, the likelihood of that case being solved became less and less. In this case, unless something completely unexpected happened, would never be solved. Now, most importantly, as part of the profer agreement, Brian had to lead investigators to the remains of Mike Williams, which he did some seventeen years after he buried it.

4:14 This enabled Mike's mother at the very least to be able to give her son she loved so much, a proper burial. So police on May eighth of twenty eighteen, they go to Florida State University where Denise worked, and they arrest her and she's charged with first degree murder, conspiracy to first degree murder, and accessory after the fact. The three page indictment of Denise's case was released shortly after. As a matter of fact, it was just a few days and I'm going to read it for you quickly. It's just really one page that I'm reading. Count one, between March first of two thousand and December sixteenth of two thousand, in the County of Leon in the state of Florida, Denise Williams, also known as Denise Winchester, agreed, conspired, combined, and confederated with another person, Brian Winchester, to unlawfully kill a human being, Jerry Michael Williams, And the agreement conspiracy, combined or confederate, was perpetrated from or was premeditated, design or intent to affect the death of Jerry Michael Williams.

5:28 That was Count one. Then Count two goes through the same kind of introduction with her name and everything, but the diff teers. It says she was principal in the unlawful killing of a human being, Jerry Michael Williams, perpetrated by Brian Winchester in Jackson County, Florida, by shooting Jerry Michael Williams with a firearm a dangerous weapon in the killing was perpetrated from or without premeditated design. And then the third count between August first of twenty fourteen and December nineteenth of twin twenty seventeen, in the County of Leon in the state of Florida, Denise Williams did unlawfully maintain or assist the principal, Brian Winchester, by giving any aid knowing that he had committed the crime murder first degree that resulted in the death of Michael Williams, and did so with the intent that the offender would avoid or escape detection, arrest, trial, or punishment. So that was her three counts. Now, if you're like me, you may have wondered, if Brian confessed to being the one who killed Mike, how can Denise be charged with first degree murder?

6:38 And the answer to that the simple explanation is in Florida. If you commit any act that furthers the offense, you're just as guilty. Think of it like this. If you and I decide to rob a bank, and I drive you to the bank, but I don't actually go into the bank with the gun and help with the hold up. But I drive you there, I'm just as guilty as you are, and we're both going to be charged with bank robbery. I don't actually have to go in there and hold the bank up. It's the same thing here. So Denise, at this point, she's facing a life sentence. Now I'm going to back up just a little bit because several key things happened between the time that Brian Winchester was arrested in August of twenty sixteen and Denise was arrested in May of twenty eighteen. For example, on May fourth of twenty seventeen, Denise and Brian's divorce became final.

7:37 On December nineteenth of twenty seventeen, Brian Winchester was sentenced to twenty years in prison for that aggravated kidnapping of Denise, and the very next day, on December twentieth of twenty seventeen, that's when he led police to the remains of Mike Williams. And why did he do that? Why did he wait that long? It was because he wanted to make of his sentence first. Once they agreed to sentence him to just twenty years in prison, he knew that they were sticking up to their side of that proffer agreement, and he did lead them to those remains. So with Denise arrested, she gets held no bond in the trial starts. This is in late September of twenty eighteen. And for me, really three people during this week long trial, three people's testimony stood out more than anyone else's. That's Mike Williams's mother, SHERRYL. Williams, Kathy Winchester, who was Brian's wife she is now Kathy Thomas, and of course Brian Winchester himself, whom you might say was the States star witness. And so I'm going to play you, miss Sheryl Williams testimony first. And y'all, this sweet lady is maybe just what you would picture. She's elderly at this point, and she could barely see above that stand. Literally her neck and her head is all

9:10 you can see because she's a short little thing. But she bravely testifies for about fifteen minutes. Here's that clip. Good afternoon, Good afternoon. Can you please introduce yourself to the jursey. What's your name? Man? What's your name? Is? Cheryl Anne Williams? Miss Cheryl? How do you spell your first name? She? H E R like L and miss Cheryl? You are, in fact Mike Williams's mother, are you not? Yes, as well as Nick Williams, sir. As well as Nick Williams.

9:50 Yes. Do you have any grandkids? Yes, sir? One of those grandkids am yes? And who is Ainslie Mike's daughter, and that's from his marriage with Denise? Correct? Right now, Miss Cheryl? Is my understanding that you kind of run a little bit of a daycare. You cannot really run a daycare, but you take care of kids on a daily basis? That correct? Yes, it's kind of what you've done most of your. Life for fifty. Years, take care of your kids kids, seam.

10:36 Ok. What about neighborhood kids. Neighbors yes, friends, friends kids yes? How many kids on that daily basis do you take care of. In fifty years on a daily basis? Gad day? Based just anywhere from four to ten Okay, for fifty years. Huh, for fifty years seen a lot of kids grow up? Yes? Sure? Have you had a chance see Ainsley grew up? I did not get to keep Angeley on my home day here.

11:16 Haven't had a chance to watch her grow up? Have you sure? You have not had a chance to watch her grow up? Have you no? Sure? Talking about Mike Williams's death as we now know it back in two thousand, it was a disappearance. Yes. The initial theory was that he was missing and possibly eaten by alligators. Right, you never believed that. Did you? No? Sure? And in fact you took lots of steps to initiate and investigations, did you not. Yes, put up posters yes, rode the governor, Yes, put up billboards Yes.

12:04 And in fact you were able to get an investigation launch. Were you not? Yes? At some point. Did you have a confrontation with the niece about your beliefs that might be still a lot? Yes? How many times? Twice? When was the first time? It was August of two thousand and one. So nine months after Mike was missing. Yes? Where was this? It was in her front yard? What happened?

12:45 I had been trying to get publicity for Mike's disappearance. I had written the letters to the editor at the Tallahassee Democrat begging them to do a story about mike disappearance. Finally, a reporter, Tony Bridges from the Tallahassee Democrat, read my letters to the editor and he was doing a story about people who were missing locally in Tallahassee area. He called me to ask me if he could include Mike in those people, and I told him yes. Nick took a picture to the Tallahassee Democrat and he did a story.

13:35 When the article came out in the newspaper, Denise called me on the phone. She was livid. She said, you and Nick need to come over here right now. We went to her house in the front yard. We weren't even invited inside. She was screaming at me. She was mad about the article. And she said, screaming at me, I don't ever want to hear Mike's name again. I don't ever want to see Mike's picture in the paper again. I don't ever want to know anything you're doing about Mike again. I have to get on with my life.

14:24 And I asked her, I said, if that were Ansley in the lake. You would just leave her there, and she said, I would believe the authorities. I then she said, if you persist in trying to get a criminal investigation, you will lose Ann Sley. Your granddaughter, my granddaughter, Mike's daughter, Mike's daughter. You said there's a second time. The second time was before you. Yes, there was a second time. You seem to have a very good grasp of dates and names. I do, okay, been a passion obviously for your sons. Yes, lost time, Yes, taking a lot of steps right, Yes, let's talk about the second time. Then where did the second time happen?

15:16 Any When it was January eighth, two thousand and five, Nick and I were at the restaurant eating lunch. She called Nick on his cell phone and she said, what time is Sheryl going to be at home? Nick said two o'clock. She said, well, I'm coming over. The next day was January ninth. I thought that she was going to bring the baby to see me for my birthday. We had not seen her since Halloween in two thousand. And four when I stopped right there, So your birthday is the very next day. It was the very next day, January ninth, and.

15:58 If I understood it correctly. The last he saw Ainsley. Before then it was Halloween was Halloween of two thousand and four. Okay, so it was October. So from October to January he hadn't seen her, right, Okay, this is the day before your birthday. It was the day before my birthday, January eighth. Okay. What happened next? Nick and I got home and Denise came. She knocked on the door. We opened the door and Brian was with her. Brian mean Brian Winchester, Brian Winchester. And I asked her, I said, where's ann Sley? Because I thought she was bringing ann Sley to see me, and she said, ann Seley's taking a nap. Well, we invited her inside and she sat down at the table across from me. Nick was standing and Brian had.

16:53 His back to the door. What did did he tell you? Denise said, Cheryl, you know that Annsley and I love you, but Brian and I don't like the lies you're telling about us. And I looked at her and I said, Denise, what lies are you talking about? Brian screamed, you shut your mouth and let her talk. Nick got upset and said some not nice things to Brian. And then Denise is crying and she says, Cheryl, if you will just stop this investigation, you can see Annesley again.

17:37 And I told her, I. Said, Denise, I can't stop this investigation. I wouldn't if I could. Nick said, Denise, Mike is Mama's son and my brother, and we just want to know what you and Brian did to him. Brian said, Denise, each let's go. We're not getting anywhere, and they left. Did you ever see Ansley again? No? Not at my house?

18:23 Sure, its great to see parks. They stid at them at fifteen. Oak that Mike Fench Mike, which. They didn't feed that. Day. I'll be admitted, both very arm come out the fact that's the photograph you used. Sure that's the photograph using your billboards? Yes, yes, definitely. Well Chrus please, good afternoon, Miss Williams.

19:10 Good afternoon, High End. Phil Potovano. You and I have not met. I'm just going to. Ask you a few questions, and I'm certainly sorry that it has to be under these circumstances, but I do have a few questions. I want to ask you. The first time that you. That Denise confronted you was I think you said it was in the summer of two thousand and one. Yes, and by then a circuit judge had declared Mike did by that time, is that right? Yes? And by then the family had had a memorial service for Mike.

19:51 Yes. And is it fair to assume that Denise would have had to explain to Ansley, h would have to deal with the fact that her dad wasn't home and try to explain in the best way you could. To a child what had happened. Yes. And do you think it might have been difficult for her to be seeing missing posters and billboards and things such as that. You said she was trying to get past it. Is that what she said? She felt like she had to get past it.

20:36 She should, she had to get on with her life. Okay. And you know, I hate this term closure because I think in something like this there's never any closure. I mean, I don't even like to use the word. But do you know what that means when people say that, Yes, and do you think that some people might have this need then to get beyond a certain point and not say I've I've grieved, I've I've grieved the loss of my husband I've, you know, grieved the loss of my child's father, but now I still have to entertain the idea that maybe he's still alive. You do you accept that that might be difficult for some people.

21:18 In mind? Okay? And and I I know you have. A different view, and I respect that. Believe me, I do. I wanted to ask you about the second occasion, which was much later. I think, wasn't it right? And I think that I think that I heard you say, and you correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not sure how I heard this, but I thought I heard you say that you and Nick said you just wanted to find out what Brian and and Deneath did to Mike? Is that right now?

22:00 If Denise is innocent and she thought that you were accusing her of doing something to your son, do you think it would be logical for her to be upset with you. If she were innocent? Yes, So this was a reaction that she had that would be consistent with a person who's innocent. Fine, did you ever go to Cheryl's house on a centennial Oaks after two thousand and one? Who go to whose house?

22:40 I'm sorry I made him, I'm sorry I used your name. I meant to say, Denise Williams. Did you ever go to Denise's house in Centennial Oaks after two thousand and one? Yes? And did you see the pictures of Mike in the house? No? You didn't. No. Okay, let me ask you a couple of questions now, and these are going to get a little easier. I told the jury on Tuesday that your son was a good father, a good husband, and a good provider. Would you agree with that? Yes? How long had you what was what was his relationship like with Denise during the time that they were together?

23:25 I thought it was good. And you knew Denise for quite a while I mean long. They got married in nineteen ninety four, right, right, But you knew her for quite a while before. The right right? And how did they How did they? I mean did they get along? Yes? And what were your feelings towards Denise during that period of time? I loved her? Thank you? Reread direct. Mi, Cheryl, Yes, number of twenty and seventeen. You were told that Mike Williams had actually been murdered. His body was found, correct, ysh.

24:07 You were told before everybody else was told briefly and then hit the news correct. Sure you were told before everybody else was and didn't hit the news correct right. How long did it take before Denise called you and said I'm sorry that I. Was wrong All these years she never did. How long did it take before she called you and said, hey, I'm sorry, maybe I need to help you see your granddaughter again? She never did so. From the day that she threatened you to stop the investigation the day before your birthday, you've never seen your granddaughter. No, no for good questions. So how fucking sick are these two? Some bitches? Your son's missing, presumed dad nobody, and they not only braid her and Mike's dad screaming in the front of their yard, but they also threatened the only link to Mike she had left, her granddaughter, Ainsley. It's just despicable and it's heartbreaking.

25:14 And lastly, on that testimony, how about the prosecutor bringing up the point that, despite Brian Winchester confessing to killing Mike, not one fucking phone call from Denise saying I'm sorry I was wrong. I'm so glad that we figured out who did this, but I feel like such an asshole for marrying this guy. None of that I mean that right there points to this is not the actions of an innocent individual. Great job by the prosecutor pointing that out. Now, next, I'm gonna bring you the testimony of Kathy Winchester, who is now Kathy Thomas. She's remarried, and that's Brian Winchester's ex wife. And remember these were bestie couples, right they hung out together all the time year and find out they did some other things together as well. But I'm going to play you her testimony, which is very interesting and it's about an hour and fifteen minutes in length.

26:22 So like I did last week, I'm just gonna play it and I'll pick up with Brian Winchester's testimony next week. But here's that much love. And can you please state and spell your name for nightA in court Refort. Catherine K A T H E R I N E Thomas T H O M A S Miss Thomas. Do you currently live in Tallahassee? No? Where do you live? I live in North Carolina? Okay? At some point did you live in Tallahassee? Yes? Did you grow up in Tallahassee? Yes? Do you know who Mike Williams is? Yes?

27:04 How do you know Mike Williams. I know Mike Williams. We met in elementary school. Okay, what elementary school? North Florida Christian. So how long did you know Mike? I met him when we were in fifth grade, and so I knew him from then and until. He passed away. Were you friends with Mike? Yes? Can you describe that friendship? Were you just friends? Did you ever date anything like that? We were friends. We did date, like, went together. You know when we dated, we couldn't drive, so but we remained friends throughout, you know, our growing up.

28:02 Were you friends after high school? Yes? Do you know who Denise Williams is? Yes? When did you first meet Denise Williams? And what was her name at that point? I met. Denise Merrill in ninth grade at North Florida Christian School. We went to high school together. Were you friends? We were friends. We weren't best friends in high school, but we were friends. We cheer cheered together, and it was a small school, so you know, everyone knew each other pretty well and we were friends.

28:47 Now. Did Mike and Denise date in high school? Yes? They did, and they eventually got married. Is that right? That's correct? Do you know who Brian Winchester is. Yes, who's Brian Winchester. Brian Winchester. I met him in ninth grade, also at North Florida, and. We started dating when I was. We were juniors, we were both juniors in high school, and then we eventually got married. Also, when did you get married? We got married in nineteen ninety four, May of nineteen ninety four.

29:30 And we're Mike and den He's married around that same time frame. Mm hmm, they were married in December. But but yes, within the same year. Okay, Now did y'all do things together? We did? That's couples, Yes, yes, Can you describe some of the things that you did together as couples at that point? Well, we would do things like go out to eat, We would. Go movies, you know, the normal just kind of like you know, if something you know, a movie or dinner, you know, just kind of like couple dates type stuff.

30:18 We double dating with double. Dating, right, Yes, And we would do both. Brian and Mike would hunt and fish, and so Denise and I would tag along, you know, we would do those sorts of things, go to the coast and you know, go on a dove hunt or you know, just things like that. We did a couple things like that together. Now you and Brian had a son together, is that right? Yes? When was your son born? He was born in February of nineteen ninety nine. And Denise and Mike had a daughter. Correct, And Hansley was born around the same time as your son.

31:06 She was born in May of ninety nine. At some point your marriage to Brian Winchester started to have some problems. Is that fair to sight? Yes, Yes, that's correct. You eventually separated. Correct? When did you separate? We separated September eleventh, nine to eleven, two thousand and one. Correct. Okay, And when did you finally finalize the divorce?

31:47 The divorce was final in two thousand and four, April of. Two thousand, April of two thousand and three. I'm sorry this, Thomas here a little nervous today, aren't you. I am a little bit nervous. And this is hard to talk about there. Yes, did you suspect that Brian Winchester, your husband, was having an affair with Denise Williams. I did suspect that.

32:29 I want to take you back to December of nineteen ninety nine. This is before you're separated. Okay, did you receive a phone call from the Tailasi police department? Yes? What was that phone call in reference to? It was in reference to. There was a police officer who was standing at Brian's truck and she said, you know, ma'am, i'm here. Your truck is in this parking lot. And she was just. Like doing a call sort of like this truck is here. And I guess she had looked at the registration and saw that it was ours, and so she was at Brian's truck.

33:12 And she get a description of the truck to you. She did because everything, yes, yes, she she. I was like that, you know, it can't be and she said, well, it has a bumper sticker, you know, this bumper sticker, this bumper sticker, this bumper sticker. And so I was like, well, yes, that is our vehicle. Well you just said it can't be. Why did this, uh, why couldn't it be Brian's truck. Brian had told me that he was in Arkansas hunting, and so I was confused as to why she was telling me that she was at the truck because I had been told by Brian that he was in Arkansas with the truck hunt.

34:00 Now were you told the location of the truck. Was it at a church? Yes, it was. It was at a church, Grace Church or Grace is in the name. I'm not sure the whole generally located. Was that close to where Denise Williams was living at the time? Yes? Where was Denise Williams living at the time. She was living at on Centennial Oaks. Drive. I want to pass forward a little bit and now I want to talk to you about a trip that you took to Panama City. Do you remember a trip like that?

34:45 Yes? Who went on that trip? Actually, let's start with this. Who was supposed to go on that trip? It was supposed to be the four of us. It was supposed to be me and Brian and Denise and Mike. What was the purpose of the trip? Why were you going to Panama City? It was supposed to be like a birthday trip? Whose birthday? Where we celebrated Denise's thirtieth birthday? Okay? And so she was born in nineteen seventies after right, Yes, and it's our thirtieth birthday would have. Been when two thousand?

35:28 Okay, do you know what months we're talking about? That? This was that the trip was planned. It would have been, you know, spring March or April. You know, I don't know how the weekends would have lined up. But springtime of two thousand correct. And what was a plan? Were you meeting someplace and driving over together? Or what. The plan was for Mike and Denise to come over to our house on Mino Creek Drive and we were going to all drive together over there and to Panama City.

36:14 Did my show up? No? Did Denise show up? Yes? Were you informed that Mike was at going? Yes? How did that make you feel? I didn't want to go. Because at that point in our lives, whenever it was just me with Brian and Denise, it was uncomfortable. I felt like a third wheel. I felt like I was on a date with the two of them.

36:55 So how did you respond to the idea of going to Panama City with Denise and your husband? I said, if Mike doesn't have to go, I don't have to go either. I didn't want to go, and I had, I guess. Sort of a little tantrum, and I. Ran inside and I locked myself in the bathroom and I said I'm not going. But you eventually went. I did. Why did you go? Just because as I was there in the bathroom, they were on the other side just talking me into going.

37:41 And so let's talk about the trip itself. When you got there. Do you remember going out to clubs? I do? Okay, do you remember going to a strip club? I do. Was Brian and Denise both president for that? Yes? Did you drink a lot that weekend or that on that trip? Yes? Do you remember having photographs sticking up you? I don't remember specifically the moments that that, but when I saw the photograph.

38:27 I knew what it was. Who took the picture? Brian did. Do you remember any of the details of what happened after those photographs would have been taken? I don't. I don't remember specifically a lot about that weekend. At some point. Did you find some movie tickets? I did. Did that increase your suspicion that Brian was having in it there? Yes? It did. Where did you find the movie tickets?

39:08 I found them in his wallet and who's wallet? I found them in Brian's wallet. I found two movie tickets. What was the movie the tickets were for? It was for a movie called The Virgin Suicides. And just to be clear, these used tickets or tickets that you bought beforehand. They were used tickets, and I knew I had not gone to see the movie. So it was like they I raised your suspicions. Yes, it was like, okay, what does the name Meridian mean to you?

39:52 Meridian is a name that when. We would like go out. It was a name that kind of became a party name for Denise, who came up with the day I can I remember specifically whose idea it was. She lived on Meridian. Road at that time, and we had gone to a concert at the Moon and at the end of the concert you could like go up to the band and they would sign a CD or whatever, and that night, you know, she had them. She was like, oh, say to Meridian, you know, so they signed it. I remember them signing it to her, and so it just kind of you came.

40:47 So you've seen Denise use the name Meridian before. Yes, did you ever find a receipt that referenced the name Meridian? I did. Can you tell the jury where you found that receipt? I had gone into Brian's office and. This is when I was contemplating what my next steps would be as far as. Moving out. We didn't have bills sent to our house. He would have all of our bills sent. To his office. So I had gone to his office one evening and I was just looking through his desk drawers, just trying to find out.

41:36 Information about our financial life. And you came across the receipt. And I came across the receipt. Judge me, I approached it with us. You may. Ms Thompson going to show you at market in states ativits plot. Is this a receipt that you're talking about? Yes, sir, is that a fair copy of that receipt? Yes, it is church Out author states Exhibit twenty. I heave any eviction the War Foundation on the date of the secret Honor Churchy. There's a date on the receipt. What is the date on that It.

42:19 Says seven twenty eighth one, not. During the time that you just testified you yes, Judge on author states Ephibit twenty. Further addiction, why didn't you no objection? All right, it'll be admitted with that addiction. Permssion polish you may, Amos Thomas. This is an obviously a copy and we can't flip. Over the part that's correct.

43:04 H m m. Yeah. You point out the day the area. That makes fund. Right there? Okay, where was this receipt from there? It's from the Gold Center from I didn't do it the Gold Center, and you were.

43:47 Able to answer. At one point we looked at the entirecy. Is that the yes, okay, what was the receipt? It was for a necklace and it was during the time when it was kind of popular to have a name on a like a gold name, and it was the name Meridian. It was like a necklace with the name Meridian. So I knew what that was. And that's what the receipt was for, was for one of those necklaces. And that date is July, the late July two thousand and one, correct, that's before you separated from Brian Winchester.

44:29 Is that right? Yes, that's correct, and. You separated from Brian Winchester. Apossumin leve about a month after that. Month and a half, right, she's trying to take down which you say, You'll say, yes, yeah. I'm sorry, and ultimately you divorced Brian Winchester. Yes, sir. On the fast forward now to August of twenty sixteen, were you aware of the Brian Winchester kidnapped Denise Williams, who was then Denise Winchester. Yes, after that occurred, did you have conversations with Denise Williams about what occurred? Yes, about a week after that incident, that kidnapping, Denise ask you to do something.

45:34 Yes. What did she ask you to do? Denise asked me to tell Marcus to get a message to Brian that I'm not talking. Was a week approximately after the kidnapping. Yes. Sometime after that, did you start communicating with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement? Yes?

46:22 Who's Marcus? Marcus is Brian Winchester's father, Marcus Winchester. Okay, we're gonna say I'm not talking. Is it referring that Kathy Thomas is not talking or Denise Williams was not talking? That Denise was not talking. She wanted me to tell Marcus to tell Brian that she wasn't talking. She said, I'm not talking, but that was her saying that to me. Okay. After that, at some point, did you start having communications with the Florida Department of Law Yes. Was there any one in particular that you started communicating with?

47:08 William Michaeler and Mike Devaney. And at some point after that did you agree to start working as a confidential source, Yes, I did. As part of that. Were you given away to make recordings? Yes? After that? Did you ever confront Denise about what she asked you to do that week after the kidnapping? Yes? I did. Did you record that conversation? Yes, sir, judgement that approach.

47:50 Give minute. There was Thomas Charlie Mark she did s if theyre at sixteen? This is a recording. Did you have a chance to review this in our office before your testomary today? Yes? Is that apparent accurate depiction of the reporting that you made? Yes? Office at sixteen? This time an objection to be a pivot. And I'm having to shoot my mom's to I've got a test tonight and so on the study and you have there and people are going to be coming announce I'm just gonna go be over there.

48:33 Yeah. So you're driving back. So does that mean next is worse or anyway? Well, I was headed back anyways, but this way, if you know, if Rocking needs to come, you can. Yeah. And you got the. I think we have here. Identify who's talking to the Jerry can h follow it a little. Bit, But there's two people on this recording. Is that right? Yes? One voice is yours? Yes? And who's the other voice? Denise?

49:16 Shut up? So I couldn't even talk to you. I was just like a marry, I'll just stick it into first. Hang on one second, I just got in the car. I just stopped to get coffee. Let me get. That person who just said I just got in the car. I just got to get coffee. Whose voice is that? That was me? Okay? So the other voice is Denise, that's right? All right? Okay, So I am. Just starting to missed again. This is going to be like a miserable jibe. So I'm kind of freaking out about this subpoena. I'm sure when is it?

49:57 It's February twenty second. A person who was talking about a subpoena, that was your voice, right, yes? And the person who said, I'm sure that's Denise Williams. That's correct. Yeah, when are you talking about a subpoena? What are you talking about? Well, as one of the. Things that as a confidential source, that William Mickler, you know, we were going to say that I had received a subpoena, so that that was going to be a subpoena for me to have to.

50:45 Talk to. Mister Devaney about, you know, the case I had. I had received a subpoena from Mike Devane and this was all under the. That never so that never happened. That never happened. That was part of part of being the confidential source. That's how we're getting everything correct. That's a subject to bring up the subject correct for me to talk to her and say, I've got I have received the subpoena. I'm gonna have to talk about this, and this conversation is us talking about what I'm going to be saying in that supposed subpoena.

51:33 Okay, yeah, I'm back to it. Like you know, like you have to travel and you mean they came out there, all that kind of stuff. The attorney that I talked to, he's just like a mortgage attorney. Yeah. So he said, he's like, you know, I could call. He's like, I don't do this, but I could call and see if you could do it, or. You know, he's like you would have to go somewhere where you would get sworn in, because the whole thing is like getting sworn in. Yeah. Yeah, So I was like, all right, well, you know, just let me kind of figure out what I'm going.

52:14 To do because Andy had said that to you remember when you were going to get down position? But that was a subpoena too, right, But I know finger did it. No, No, they didn't ever do it. I just can't imagine that. What if somebody lived in Alaska or in another country or I don't know whatever. Well, here's here's my problem, and I'm I'm gonna get upset here. But my problem is. That I can't really talk to Rocky about any of this.

52:59 He's my husband, my current husband. Right, because I know I know they're wanting to talk to me about Mike. And I mean, over the time that we've been married, I've. Always just pretended like I. Don't know anything, and.

53:47 I mean I do know what you know? Well, do you remember back when. All of that happened with you and Brian and Chuck in Atlanta? Yeah, Well, Brian called me.

54:28 At the shop crying. And before I mad, Well, I you know, I. Don't know because I didn't know that all of that had happened until Chuck wrote me a letter. But Brian had figured out. That you were cheating on him with Chuck, and he just told me about Mike. What he said, he called you upset about shot and then hed he was like he was mad at you.

55:29 And so he told me he told me about what happened to Mike. Well, I would love to know what happened to Mike. He never told me. They said they found his remains and that he was beaten or that he was shot. Brian told me that y'all planned it, planned what m oh my god, and Marcus showed up at the shop later that afternoon, you know, telling me how I would.

56:16 Have to take this to my grave. Guys, Marward's life it would ruin you know. Apparently Brian told Marcus that he had talked to me, and he went on to just tell me. Marcus went on to tell. Me how my life would be ruined, how I would never be able to start over if Stafford's life was ruined. If so, Marcus knew. And when you said, Brian said, y'all you're talking about me and Brian and Marcus or who. You and Brian. And and that Marcus is involved. I mean obviously if he came to talk you, well.

57:04 You know, shut it down, shut down, so you know whatever in the world. I mean, it's it's it's. And then you got a letter from Shuck. My parents got a letter too, But you got a letter from Shuck and he's talking. About it too. Or now. Chuck told me what happened in Atlanta and Atlanta Okay. Yeah, so. Here's the deal. Here is the deal. Hang on, somebody's texting me.

57:45 Roggy Rex is not doing well. Yeah, that's pretty major, especially with Marcus involved. Well, I mean I know that you know something, Denise, because whenever I was going out to Marcus, You're like, tell Marcus to tell Brian, I'm not talking. Yeah, and I knew what that meant. Well, that's why, because what they've been doing is they've been lying to me, and they've been lying to them. And obviously, I mean because you told me the thing about him saying what I wrote in the letter to the Jet, which I didn't, and so they're playing everybody against each other. He did that. Here's the thing. I don't even care about all that anymore because time has moved on.

58:29 Mike is in heaven. So here is my problem. Here is like my problem if Lonnie doesn't know any of this, Rockie doesn't know that I know, and all these years anytime anything ever came up about Mike. I just sit with my mouth shot. He never would have married me if he had known. This has nothing to do with you. I haven't been lying to him for fifteen years. But you're talking about something Chuck happened years later. So then you're saying that years later Ryan told you something, Marcus came to you. So two people came to you to talk to you about this years after it happened.

59:11 Had you even had you met Rocky? Then yes? I mean, but that had that that What that has to do with is two people telling you something that has nothing to do with you and anything that you did or anything that you didn't do. I mean, it doesn't and. There's nothing you can't tell Rocky. I know that. I'm sure that. So that's why you were talking about losing your family. I am gonna lose my family if I lie. If I lie, when if they asked me, did you know what happened to Mike? Wef I lie? Then now now what happens? And then when I go home and Rocky says, why didn't you ever say anything?

59:56 Like? How how did I explain that? Other? I explain that I just decided to forget it, he never would have married me. I don't believe that because you didn't have nothing. Because I know he is. Well, I'm not why to him about anything. But every time there anything about Mike, don't that is a lie? Well that you didn't that you didn't tell him what Brian told you if I did tell him what Ma just told you. So again, it's two things that two people told you. But it's not you. It's not he fell in love with you, it's not you.

1:00:38 Well, what am I supposed to do when they asked me? I mean what I was supposed to do? Was he pushing He was pushing you on the phone about it? Is that what you were saying? Yeah, Rocky's like, why do you have this? Why do they want to talk to you? I mean my guess was because you were married Brian at the time, you and Bryan. I'm guessing that I don't know. I mean, if all this is tied to this guy that he talked to, then I'm guessing he wanted to talk to you because you were friends to that.

1:01:20 But I mean, but again, it just it has nothing to do with Rocky or your girls, or your family, nothing. Nothing. They weren't even around then, and you weren't either. This is years later, because I'm trying to think it was three at least three years later. When I was with Chuck. Yeah, and I mean, Rockie's not gonna h stuff that you kept inside that people have told you. If you decide to tell him, he's gonna be fine. If you don't, he's not. He's not gonna You're not gonna leave. He's not gonna be like we're getting a divorce. I mean, there's no way.

1:02:23 There's no way. And if you would have told him back then when y'all are engaged, you're getting engaged or whatever, it's still had nothing to do with him meeting you, him falling in love with you, him wanting to marry you, your family, has to do with Ryan and Marcus. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, So it's February twenty second, it's all he said. Hm.

1:03:04 And is it a trial because it's set a witness something I didn't understand what that's time that because I got to Penis before for deposition, it's at home. I don't have it with me. It just says that, like I have to go down to the state Attorney's office at ten o'clock in the morning. The state Attorney. Yeah, because that's where I think, that's where I have to go to you and you and Marcus have yell ever spoken since has he ever said anything to you? So it's just been understood that, you know, if I ever said anything, then everything, you know, all the all the stupid shit we ever did, would everybody would know?

1:03:59 You know, And yeah, everybody would know. And wouldn't that be awful when you know Mike's in a better place and so. You know, I don't know. I mean that has done that to you again, that's using fear and the unknown to try to control you.

1:04:40 I mean, it's typical. Yeah, did Denise just gonna ask you this? Because I've been thinking about it? But why not? Long before mix. He called me. Mike called me and he had found a bunch of money in your wallet and he said, I think Denise has a boyfriend. He said, he found a bunch of money in your wallet, a bunch of cash. And he said that you told him something about Deanna, that you told him that Deanna had paid you back for something.

1:05:35 And he said that he had asked Dianna and Deanna said that wasn't true. Yeah, yeah, I all. But I remember thinking, like. He knows, he knows that Denise and Brian. Like each other, and like I've always been myself if I had Mike. I think Brian has a girlfriend. I've always wondered if he was still being here, why why couldn't y'all just. Get a divorce.

1:06:17 I've always known. That you and Brian loved each other. Brian told me one time that you were his best friend and that was just the way it was always gonna be. Did Mike find out? No? That was all. I remember him calling Dianna. I think I remember. I'm pretty sure he told me that he had called to you. But I know Missionary called Diana because he talked about it, and I remember he was a conversation. I don't remember. I remember us talking about it. I remember that we were talking about Carol because of like the pot and stuff like that. I remember talking about that with him, and I think Carol ended up talking to him because that's And I don't remember how much money it was.

1:07:13 I don't remember. I do remember money, and I do remember a conversation about Pott and Carol and Deanna, and I remember that he had talked to Dianna too, so I had to tell her not all that. But so I do remember that. Yeah, I guess I didn't know that he had talked to you. I don't know. I mean I would, I don't know. I just I can't do anything with the I couldn't do anything with the divorce. I couldn't do anything with any of this without talking to an attorney. And mainly I just talked with Becky's husband and then whoever Kristen tells me to talk to. But I mean you, I mean, that's all up to you. I'm telling Rocky too, is up to you.

1:08:12 But again, I don't I don't see him. I don't. I just see him being like, oh my god, and you know, I just but I don't. I don't see him being like we're getting a divorce, and surely you don't see that. I do see that because I just know that like every year if it comes up, and you know, if there's something in the paper, and then I just to know, like every I know, he would have said, why didn't you ever tell me? I'm That's how he is, because he is good and honest. He's not like but. He's he's good and honest, and he will just say, if you've kept.

1:09:04 This from me, what else? But if if I go to the interview and I'm just like, I don't know anything, I don't know anything, I mean, what if they catch me lying and then what happens? I have no idea. I have no idea. I mean, they told me that day that Brian did all that to me. They told me that the Brian he's been saying this, that or the other. I then told me all consequent and come to find out, one of the attorneys told me that they went in there to talk to him because they had found him and they wouldn't been to talk to him, and that he chance and was already there and he'd say one word. So I don't know. So what my point telling you that is they could say we know you know, they could say can say whatever they want to say, and it's legal for them to do that.

1:10:02 So whether they ever say we know you're lying or we whatever, I mean, you don't know you have not yet it's true or not, because I usually find out laer let's stat from truth and ye had the guy asked me about you, but he just asked me about our relationship or whatever that guy minds. When he was fishing me in the he started questions. When you went to the police, Yeah, but I mean it was just what was your relationship stuff like that. Wasn't anything about market. Marcus's name didn't come up or anything like that. Well, I'm sure if they I would guess if they were doing this to you, they're doing this to Marcus. I mean, I don't but I don't know.

1:10:48 I don't know, but that I'm going to when I get back, I'm going to I'm gonna get it just like. My They called me while I was in town. I don't know how they know I was in town, and so I'm not I'm gonna get like a just like a throwaway phone. Because God, who knows. I mean, I don't know. I'm just scared. I just feel I just feel like, why did they keep. Calling me, like calling me this weekend.

1:11:32 And left a message that they knew I was in town. So I think that they're listening to me, probably, I mean, I don't know, but I think could be. I don't know. I mean I would My advice to you is to just is to talk to Rocky. I can't I cannot do that. I don't have anywhere to go. I don't even have a job. I just don't think it's going to be what you think it's gonna be. I really don't. And I don't know how you can be married to him for the next time many years and not saying anything if it's bothering me that bad.

1:12:15 It wasn't bothering me until I got a sena, until. I have to do it. Yeah, mm hmm, that's it, I can think. But I think he would then then to be him holding you, you know. I mean, I don't think he would be like. Goodbye, it is starting to hard, I'm gonna have to go for. I'm gonna have to go. So that's I mean, after hearing all this, that's what I think. And I think that you're wrong. I think that he's I think you're right about him being a kind, good person, and I think that I mean that these are things that people told you years after Mike died.

1:13:05 I just I don't think he's gonna he's gonna be like we're getting divorced than never talking to you again. I really don't. But I mean, you know, I'm better, but I don't. I just don't. H held over here, be careful. All right, Yeah, I gotta go. Okay. That other voice on the tape is Denise Williams.

1:13:47 Roight. Yes. Do you see Denise Williams in the courtroom today? Yes? I do. Can you point her out and identify an autical clothing that she's wearing. Yes, she's right over here, on to the right of me, and she's wearing a gray sweater. Had the record reflect that the witnesses the Denise Williams prof. Good morning, Miss Thomas, good morning. That tape recording we just heard, was it fdl e's idea for you to cry and be upset? Is that the natural.

1:14:35 I don't remember having it. I don't understand the question. I guess well, you indicated that FDLI had set you up with a little bit of a script about having a subpoena correct told you as an investigative source to make calls to Denise Williams. Yes, during this course of time that you're doing that, how many times did you talk with Denise Williams on the phone prior to recording that get you a call. As a confidential source or just in general? Do you mean in general? How often let me help you out here. Let's just pick a narrow time frame. Let's say beginning January one of this year, twenty eighteen. Okay, okay, as I understand that this phone call was recorded when sometime in February of twenty eighteen, Yes, sir, okay, So let's just begin with January one. How many times do you think you would have spoken with Denise Williams on the telephone prior to this recorded call?

1:15:41 Probably every day? Would you also have texted back and forth? Yes, you talk about the same types of things that you talk about, your husband's getting coffee driving. Yes. How many times did you record all of those conversations? I cannot remember specifically how many I recorded. But it was more than one, yes, sir, and you sent all of those recordings to the Florida Department Law Enforcement.

1:16:23 I'm not sure that I understand every one of our everyday conversations or every one of the recorded conversations. Let's start with the recorded conversations. Yes, I gave all of those to f Daily Yes, sir. How many of those do you think there were? I think there were maybe four to maybe four to. Six, And those were all the conversations that were scripted out by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to lie to Miss Williams that you had received the subpoena went in back. You had not. When I was working forty l A, yes, sir, So.

1:17:04 It would be fair to say when you were making these calls with Miss william Bullworth for fifty LA and you were at least lying in part about what was actually going on. Yes, And that phone call speaks for herself. So the jury's heard. They get here again. So I'm not going to get into what everybody said. What you said only to suggest that Denise's your friend, isn't she? Yes? And as that phone call was ending, she was trying to be a friend. She's tony to be safe, wasn't she? Yes, sir?

1:17:44 And you two probably talked the day after that phone called in't you yes? Now you testified on direct examination that you suspected that Brian Winchester and Denise Williams were having affair. You suspected that. Yes, sir, You don't know that d. I never caught them kissing or I never saw with my own eyes them specifically in a physical embrace. No, sir, I never caught them.

1:18:27 You don't know if they were having a fair. As a fact, I never caught them in the act. That is correct. That is a fact. You had talked about. Well. Brian was a selfish husband, wasn't he? Yes? He was. And you were having a troubled relationship with Brian Winchester well before your separation in September of two thousand and one. Correct, yes, sir. And it is an affair to say that in two thousand you were basically sleeping in a different room from mister Winchester.

1:19:15 Yes, sir, that's fair to say. You're either sleeping in Stafford's room or you're sleeping on the couch, remember me. Yes, you had mentioned earlier that you had some suspicions about Brian. Do you know who Angela Stafford is? I do know who she is. Did you ever learn that Angela Stafford and your then husband, Brian Winchester had gone out to claiming Plaza after Denise's baby shower? Can you repeat that? Please? Did you know that? Where you? Do you remember when Denise had her baby shower? Pretty inside?

1:19:58 I'm sure I was there, I am not at whose house was it at? I think she may have had a couple. Do you ever recall having or attending a baby shower for miss Williams at the home on Antonio Lewis. I don't have a recollection of that specifically, did something happen at the baby shower? May I feel? I asked you another question. Okay, So you don't know if. Your then husband was out seeing or out going out to clubs with other women other than your circle of friends.

1:20:44 You don't. I had not caught him doing that either. I mean, I can't say because I don't know. I don't want to say he wasn't because I don't know, but I can't say that he was either. Well, it's Thomas. We're here in a felony trial, my plans on trial. You've testified during direct examination, You've answered the government's questions. I'm trying to figure out what you know and what your guests there. A question, mister, what do you know? That witness is void? Int your question to ask a question?

1:21:26 Do you know for a fact whether or not Brian Winchester was cheating on you when you were married to him? No, the Virgin Suicide movie received. Do you know for a fact whether or not that has anything to do with Denise Williams. Brian told me that he took Denise to the movie. Do you think that that going to the movie has anything to do or approves in any way they were having an affair? Mm hmm. I didn't know he was going to take her to the movie beforehand, and he did it without telling me, and he told me later that it was her that he had taken. So I guess, no, it doesn't prove anything.

1:22:17 He just took someone else on a date without me knowing. But I. I guess I can't. And when was it? When was that movie? To be honest, I would have to google to see when it came out. I don't remember. I'm sorry. You testified earlier that you went to Panama City for Denise's thirtieth birthday party and you struggled with it because it was a difficult time. He didn't want to go. Correct. You've seen the photographs from the State Attorney's Office that have been introduced to thatdence of you and miss Williams Beach and you and this wings up club.

1:23:06 No I. Man person wintrontium. Samas. I'm going to show you we've been introduced into evidence to STAGS until it's seventeenth positive several photographs. Please review these. Please do not answer saying it to you Pat after. This kah, Yeah, these Thomas were those photographs from that weekend trip to Panama.

1:24:11 City in. Two thousand, Yes, sir, And those pictures accurately depict you and those photographs, yes, sir. And is that you and Miss Williams smiling and staying next to each other in a bikini, Yes, sir. That picked you and Miss Williams smiling out at my gloves. Yes, sir, picked you and Miss Williams essentially just having a good times two friends. Yes, sir, not perfect, but. Hyah h.

1:24:56 H, Miss Thomas, when you were making these controlled calls, as it relates to my clients, when you had learned from the Department of Law Enforcement that Mike Williams remains had been. Fact correct, No, sir, I didn't know that. At the time of the controlled calls. You were not aware that in December of twenty and seventeen, there was a press release in Florida Department Law Enforcement announced that they had found Mike Williams remains and reclassified the case of the homicide.

1:25:37 I'm sorry, yes, sir, I did know that. I wait a second, can can you tell me the date of when the press conference was, ma'am. Unfortunately, okay, we try another question that might help it. So I'm trying to be a vasive It's. Not like I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be evasive either, but I'm just trying.

1:26:21 Did you learn all right? You have a son five, Brian Winchester. Correct, Yes, and that means you have a connection to Marcus Winchester because that is your son's grandfather. Yes, sir, you are aware that your former husband and the father of your son, kidnapped Anise Williams a gunpoint on August fifth, twenty sixteenth. Correct, Yes, sir. You know that. Yes, and you know that from not only your own personal experience, but you also spoke with Denise Williams that day. Correct, Yes, sir. And you have spoken with Denise Williams constantly, work fairly continuously after August fifth of twenty sixteen, correct, Yes, sir.

1:27:14 Okay, and these could. Be almost considered daily phone calls or text messages. Yes, sir, So you would have known in August of twenty sixteen that your former husband was in jail and was facing felony charges. I knew he was in jail yes, and you also knew and I believe his referenced on your phone call. You also knew that, specially agent Mike Devane. He had spoken with Denise Williams at the Leon Kanny Sheriff's office when she was there to talk about her kidnap. You call that, I do recall that, but she did not. She did tell me that there was someone there, but not right away.

1:27:55 Did you later in your communications with miss Williams become aware that that the fd ely agent she spoke to on August fifth, twenty sixteen, was agent Mike Debany. Yes, and you learned about this shortly after or did it take time before you and her discussed specifically Aged Deviani. They took some time before we discussed him, but it. Became some point in your communication that you and she could identify who these people were. No, we never really had. We just knew the one Mike Devaney. And isn't it true that she told you she did not have a good relationship or positive feeling about mister Vany after the way she was questioned on August fifth?

1:28:42 She said he was mean to her. Okay, she said some other things too, probably, or of course. She might have. I mainly remember her saying that he was mean to her, and. That's also why there's some so you know from your previous communications with her. When you're talking about Agent Debany on that controlled call, you know there's a history between those two, and you already know that Miss Williams doesn't like Agent Debate. Correct.

1:29:28 There are things in that that a recording. Again, the recording speaks for itself, but the name Charles Bumper comes up in their whole confusing stuff about Charles Bumper. But who was Charles? Who is Charles Bumper? Uh? He was a man that Denise had worked with and she I guess she had dated him? Did she date him about the same time that that you were getting formally divorced from mister Winchester. I approximately, And their relationship was open and notorious. People knew that they were dating or you knew that you that you knew that Denise and Charles Parker were kant.

1:30:23 Well, I had found that out from Brian, I didn't. She and I were not communicating a lot after after I had separated from Brian. Our relationship was not very close for a couple of years around that time, so I knew that from Brian, And you know we weren't talking. We weren't during that time, We weren't on talking on a daily basis like we were. Currently. Would it be fair to say that your relationship with Missus Williams became closer or after she filed for divorce from Brian Winchester. Yes, that would put you too in the Brian Winchester's wives club together.

1:31:10 Yes. Did she have many of the same Did she talk with you about many of the same concerns she had trying to divorce Brian Winchester as you had had? Yes, couldn't get documents correct, Brian Winchester didn't want to say no, didn't want to give up. Correct. And in fact, when you went through and finally got your divorce from mister Winchester, I believe the final hearing was right here. In the sporthouse, wasn't it correct? And if I recall correctly from previous in your own knowledge, mister Winchester sat in one row behind you and try correct. But to be fair, mister Winchester never really tried any reconciliation attempts with you. No, he just didn't want you to be divorced from correct. And then once you got your finalized divorce and you were no longer married to mister Winchester, you started a relationship with your current husband, mister Thomas. Correct, right, And Brian didn't like that, did he know? Did he try to stop your marriage from mister Thomas.

1:32:14 He did. So. As soon as you became engaged or romantically involved with another man, mister Winchester's efforts to try to bring you back intensified. Yes, because up until the divorce he hadn't really cared. That, that is correct. Now, you were finally able to marry mister Thomas in two thousand and four, yes, and thereafter mister Winchester and missus mister Williams and miss Winchester got married two thousand and five, correct. I think that. Yes. I believe it was around two thousand and. Five when.

1:33:08 The relationship with you and miss Williams that tended to get better after the marriage because Miss Williams was now essentially your son's stepmom, and you had more communication now and more contact with Miss Williams because this is before the ex wives club, correct. Correct, Now you're just in the co parenting club. Correct. And Denise is good to Stafford wasn't she Yes, she looked after Yes, and isn't it true even after. Well, let me ask us. As part of your divorce agreement with mister Winchester back in two thousand and three, was mister Winchester obligated to provide private school tuition? Yes, sir, And as Stafford grew older, he ended up attending the McClay School. Correct, Yes, you went to high school?

1:33:59 Play. Yes, how about the time he started high school at McLay was about at the same time that miss Williams and mister Winchester are separated. Correct, Yes, that's correct. Do you know in your review of the circumstances related to your son whether or not Miss Williams actually paid Stafford's tuition of McLay. That was what she had told me, But I never you know, I don't. I wasn't on the financial part, so I can't say who paid. But that is what she told me. Yes, And Stafford's tuition ended up being paid. Yes, And this was at a time when she wasn't even in a relation in a ongoing relationship with mister Winchester. She was trying to get divorced from.

1:34:41 Yes. Finally, when you were. When you were working with the. Department of Law Enforcement in February of twenty eighteen. That was before you found out conclusively that your former husband had chilled Mike Williams, wasn't it.

1:35:28 May I just kind of present a timeline how I'm remembering it, though I can't remember the verbatim dates. There was the kidnapping, and I started working with fd LY. Around the time that Brian was sentenced, like after his sentencing. So, yes, that's correct.

1:36:11 I'm sorry it took me a minute, just but yes, at the time that I recorded the phone calls, I had known that Mike had been found. Well, let me try to back up a little bit, because I'm asking more, not necessarily when Mike has found I'm asking when you found out that Brian was the man who in fact killed Mike Walliams. I found that out on the day that the press conference happened. Because when. Should I keep going? I'm sorry, all right.

1:36:53 I'm gonna try to lead it a little bit better, Okay, help you out a little bit. There was a press confer in December of twenty and seventeen. Mister Feuchs was there along with that Fly agency. Do you recall that press conference yes, sir. And at that press conference it was announced that Mike williams remains had been to Scock remember that, yes, sir, But he did not say that press conference who killed Mike Williams? Did it? No, sir, You're right, I'm sorry. All right? After the press conference, you work with FDLA in February of twenty and eighteen. Man, I'm gonna need you to danger yes, from the port Worth place. Yes, did fd LY during this time you were working with them? Ever tell you that they knew that your former husband, Brian Winchester had actually killed Mike Williams.

1:37:55 Yes, they told me what his testimony was, what he they told told me what he said he had done. And they told you that before you started working on recording phone calls. Yes, nothing further on direct. Was Thomas. You would agree with me that affairs, especially when you're married or meant the kept secret except fair. Yes, that's fair. You don't know that your then husband, Brian Winchester was having an affair with Denise Williams because you never caught them red handed, that's correct, But you had some pretty high suspicions about it.

1:38:40 Is that fair? Yes, sir? And we talked about the recorded calls and the number of recordings. Of the number of recordings that you made, does that change the context of the recording that was played for the jury? The call that was played for the jury? Does that change based on how many other recordings that you made with mister No that was the recording, the day to day calls where you just called and you were talking to your friend about day to day life.

1:39:21 Do those change the content or the context of the recording that the jury heard today? No, they don't. Whether you were working off from the script or not, does that change the context or the content of the call that the jury heard today? No? Nothing from them. Hey, jury, I have the question. Breaks your question down, please, we'll got a side park.

1:40:46 The time as. We have a couple of follow up questions from the jury. The first one relates back to the date that mister Mike Williams disappeared December sixteenth, two thousand. Do you have any recollection. From that time frame that stuck out to you concerning either miss Williams or mister Winchester's behavior, interaction, anything specific that stood out to you from that date or close to that date, Any.

1:41:32 Any behavior that I saw between the two of them or individually or individually, I can't recall any specific action. And should I say just that day specifically. I think that's what the Jerys are asking about. Do you do you do you remember what happened? I don't have any specific On that day. I did not see Denise. I had a phone call from her telling me it was around lunchtime. She was telling me she was looking for him and.

1:42:19 Brian that so I did not see her on that day. Brian, he came. Late to our family Christmas party. He in my mind in the moments on that day, I was wrapping Christmas presents and the plan was that he would get back from hunting and we would leave and go together to my family Christmas party in Caro, Georgia. And around two o'clock I just left with Stafford because we were supposed to be there at three, and Brian showed up later.

1:43:08 He showed up after we had open presence and everything like that, and. It was. There was in that moment it just seemed as if Mike had gone hunting and. Just hadn't come back. I didn't seemed so there wasn't anything unusual about mister Winchester's behavior that you remember other than being late for the party. Yes, sir, have you ever physically met Angelus Stafford? I believe so. I believe that we would have met at but and I know who she is, but she was not someone who as someone that you know, and back then, you know, you didn't have Facebook and things like that where you might recognize someone even though you didn't see them a lot.

1:44:15 I feel that I would have met her. I know that I must have met her, but we were just acquaintances. Did miss Williams appear emotionally distraught about the disappearance of her husband we're talking about now, back in. Like two thousand and early two thousand and one. She did not. Seem distraught in those days ure Mike was gone. I can remember saying to Brian.

1:45:09 I think you've answered the question, Oh any fire, mister? What all right? You can step down