Exposed EXTRA "Part 4" 50 Shades of Evil: Washington - Ted Bundy

0:17 Welcome back. I am your host, Jim Chapman, and today I am continuing fifty Shades of Evil Washington, Ted Bundy. Now, when I left you last week, I detailed the capture of Ted Bundy in Pensacola, Florida, after murdering some thirty women across five states and escaping from jail twice. That's where we're going to pick up today with this final episode in the Ted Bundy saga, and the monster was finally in chains. What followed were two of the most bizarre, most televised, most psychologically disturbing trials in American legal history. Ted Bundy didn't just get to court. He turned the courtroom into his personal stage, a glittering arena where he could perform, manipulate, charm, and remind the entire world that even behind bars, he was still the one in control and even before the trials. Shortly after he was arrested, an indictment came out for the Florida State Sorority House murders, and he, of course would perform for those cameras. Now I want you to picture this, the Sheriff of Leon County, Florida, King Cassaris. He's set to read that indictment to the media and also to Bundy in front of news cameras in the county jail. He summons Bundy from his cell to read these charges to him publicly. Now Bundy steps off the elevator, where this wild exchange takes place in

1:50 front of the whole world, news cameras everywhere, and I think it really paints a picture of the arrogance of Bundy. Listen to this. What do we have you're kim Let's see. You always say an indictment? All right? Why don't you read it to you? You're a got it for election, aren't you. Mister ain't got it, didn't you? Mister Bundy told me that you told him that you're going to get me. He said he was going to get Okay, you've got the indictment. It's all you're gonna get. Let's read it. Let's go, Theodore Robert Bundy. You were charged indictment two counts burglary and the u two counts murder in the first degree, three counts attempted murder in the first degree, in the name of and by the authority of the State of Florida. The Grand Jurys of the State of Florida and paneled have sworn to inquire and true presentment making in for the County of Leon. Upon thereros do present that Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day of January nineteen seventy eight, and Leon County, Florida, did then, in their unlawfully enter or remain in a structure located at six sixty one West Jefferson Street, the dwelling of Karen Chandler and or Kathy Kleiner, with the attempt to commit the offensive battery therein it in the course of committing such burglary, that said Theodore Robert Bundy did make an assault upon Karen Chandler and or Cathy Planner contrary to Section eight ten oh two Florida Statutes, and Your Grand George, being President Seig Court further gives the Court to be informed and understand that Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day of January nineteen seventy eight, in Leon County, Florida, did then in there unlawfully kill a human being two whit Margaret Bowman, by strangling and or beating her, And said killing was perpetrated

3:21 by said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with a premeditated design or attempt to affect the death of said Margaret Bowman, contrary to section seven eighty two oh four Florida Statutes, and your grand Juristory and President said Court further gives the Court to be informed and understand the Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth. Day of January nineteen seventy. Eight, Leon County, Florida, did then, in their unlawfully kill a human beings too Whit Lisa Levy, by strangling and or beating her, And said killing was perpetrated by said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with a premeditated design or intent to. Affect the death of said Lisa Levy. My chance to talk to press contrary to section seven eighty two oh for Florida Statute. I'll plead not guilty right now, and your. Grand jurors being President said Court, further gives the Court to be informed and understand the Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day of January and Leon County did then, in their unlawfully attempt to kill a human being two Whit Cameron Karen Chandler, by beating her about the head annoyingly or intentionally causing great bodley harm and set attempts was perpetrated by said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with a premeditated design or intent to affect the death of or said Karen Chandler, contrary to Section.

4:24 Seven seventy seven O four seven seven eighty two oh fourth Florida Statutes. And your grand Jurors being President, and said Court further give the Court to be informed and understand the Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day of January, Leon County, Florida, did, then, in their unlawfully attempt to. Kill a human being two wit. Kathy Kleiner by beating her about the head annoyingly or intentionally, caused great bodley harm, and set attempt was perpetrated by said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with the premeditative designer attempt affect the death of said Kathy Kleiner, contrary to section seven seven seven oh four seven eight two h fourth Florida Statutes. And your grand. Jewors being President and Sage Court further give the Court to be informed and understanding that Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day January, in Leon County Florida, did then, in their unlawfully enter will remain in a structure located at four to thirty one A Dunwoodie, the dwelling of Cheryl Thomas, with the intent to commit the offensive battery therein, and the course of committing such burglary, that said Theodore Robert Bundy did make an assault upon Cheryl Thomas, contrary to Section eight ten oh two at Florida Statutes. And your Grand Jewurs being President in said court, further give the Court to be informed and understand the Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day of January nineteen seventy eight, in Leon County, Florida, did then, in their unlawfully attempt to kill a human being too wech Cheryl Thomas by beating her about the head and knowingly are intentionally causing great body harm. And said attempt was perpetrated by said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with a premeditated design or intent to affect the death of said Cheryl Thomas, contrary to section seven seven four and seven eight two four, Florida Statutes, contrary to the form of the statute and fruch case made and provided against the peace and dignity of the State of Florida.

5:48 That is the indictment handed down by the grand jury. This is the capist for your arrest for burglary of the dwelling, two counts, murdered first degree two counts, attempted murder of first degree three counts. I am commanded to keep you in safe custody and bring. You before the spring term of the Circuit Court in nineteen seventy eight too, for the pending court. Of this county for those charges that I just read to you in case number seventy eight. That's six seventy Stay of Florida birg versus Theodore Robert Bundy. Is that my cough? No, it does not your tough We have your company. You how the case is, you'll get that. I talked to the press. I mean we've had our chance, We've we've displayed the prisoner.

6:32 Now I think it's pardon. I think that well. Listen, I've been taking in isolation for six months, have been kept away from the press. I've been buried by you. You've been talking to six months. I think it's my turn that all right. We got a quarter of that you do. There won't be any press. Sure there won't be any press interviews. You've given them out. I'm I'm gagged. You're calorider will. Reach her, simply wild exchange between those two. Now, that first trial was for the ki Omega Sorority House murders, and it started on June twenty eighth of nineteen seventy nine.

7:17 It was a. Sweltering Miami courtroom that was packed to capacity. Reporters with jams shoulder to shoulder in the back rows, their notebooks open. Television cameras would line the hallway outside, and the families of the victims would sit in the front rows. Mother's clutching crumpled tissues, fathers staring straight ahead with hallow eyes, and sisters and brothers trying not to break down every time the defendant's name was spoken. Margaret Bowman's mother sat rigid, her hands folded so tightly that it turned her knuckles white. Lisa Levey's parents held each other as if one of them they collapse if they let go. And there at the defense table. Since Ted Bundy, he had insisted on representing himself, no high powered attorney, just Theodore Robert Bundy, law student, former Republican volunteer and the man that was accused of bludgeoning two women to death in their own beds.

8:23 He wore a carefully chosen three piece suit, His hair was perfectly combed, his face was clean shaven, and he looked exactly like the kind of young man any parent would want their daughter to bring home for dinner. Honestly, he would smile at the jury, wink at the court transcriptionist, and he would stand up during the proceedings and pace the floor like a seasoned trial lawyer. He would gesture dramatically with his hands, as if this were some elaborate debate club exercise instead of a murder trial for the most savage crimes that Florida had ever seen at this point, and that he had personally committed. His narcissism was on full grotesque display from the very first day. He would cross examine witnesses himself, leaning forward with a calm, educated voice, the same one that he used to lure these girls into his volkswagen. He would object to evidence with flair, He would argue legal technicalities with the judge as though they were old college roommates, and at one point he actually flirted openly with a female reporter sitting in the gallery.

9:35 During breaks, he would check casually in the courtroom with staff, crack small jokes, sign autographs for fans, and yes, he probably had more fans than any other serial killer in history. But Ted Bundy had one major problem. The evidence against him was overwhelming. Forensic experts would take the stand and describe the bitemark and pressure left on Lisa Levy's breast inner buttocks, which really were the key to this entire case, in a major mistake that Bundy made because he left a deep bite impression on her that could be compared to his own bite and brushing. Which this is so important for the prosecution that I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to play you a clip now of the Leon County Sheriff discussing how they were able to obtain Bundy's bite and brushing.

10:29 Listen to this now. I focused on the bike marks because I knew they had potential, but they weren't used in Cord at the time. I had to figure a way to first preserve them. I worked with medical staff at the hospital, forensic individuals. I talked to a forensic odentologist about them. But then I knew I needed an excit implar. I needed his teeth marks, and that became I think it consumed me.

11:10 How can I get them? We tried everything in terms of We knew that if we gave him an apple, for example, and he bit into it and left the core, we may have some impression, some bite that could be compared. It was interesting because he talked to the inmate in the cell next to him through a little vent, and he said, I wonder why they keep giving me different kinds of fruit. We gave him different kinds. Of fruit because we weren't sure which one the core would leave the best bite impression, and that inmate said, you're getting fruit.

11:52 I don't get any fruit. And I think he became suspicious that something was going on with that because he quit eating his fruit. Governor asked you, who was the governor at the time, worked very closely with me. I went to his church on a Sunday morning after the crimes occurred. I waited for him outside. I said, Governor, I need your help. He put his arm around me and he said, Sheriff, what do you need? I said, I need you to just simply clear the way for me with the state lab When I need something. I want you to help me get what I needed. And he said, you just tell me what you need, I'll take care of it. So I was laying the groundwork politically, scientifically, legally, you know, looking at how to do this, and then it struck us.

12:53 It just it hit what about a search warrant for his mouth? Well, no one had ever gotten a search warrant for somebody's mouth. But I thought, you know, I teach search warrants. If we got a search warrant, we wouldn't have to tell him, we can just go serve it. That would get the bite impression. So I got Richard suverro On on board, who was the forensic odentologist, Doctor Suverroon out of Coral Gables, Florida. And I got my dentist on board, Emery Kane. I got my physician involved, and I determined, now we're going to bring him to my dental office. And I personally went to Ted Bundy cell and I said, and it was nighttime, I said, you're coming with me. All of a sudden, he had this fear that maybe I'd had my limit. I was going to take came out and perhaps eliminate him on my own. Of course I would never do that. Justice served that way is in proper justice.

14:10 Obviously I would be no better than him. But he wasn't sure. This was different. My attitude was different. He could tell he was reluctant to come out of his cell. I told him to put his brace on. I had a special brace developed now called the Bundye brace that it took the place of having to worry about handcuffs because it didn't allow him to run. It locked in place and kept his leg stiff, and it was the first time a brace like this had ever been used in the country. It was spring loaded so that when he would straighten out his leg, you could hear that spring pop into place.

14:54 And it was locked. And you know, he couldn't take it off because it had a lock on it. That way, if he tried to run, he'd be running with one stiff flag. I told him to put. His brace on. He didn't want to, so he got out. He came with me. As we're entering the dental office from the back door, he starts laughing and I said, what's so funny? He said, I know why we're here. I said why. I didn't realize it, but there was a line of photographs up the stairway, and he thought that I brought him to a photography studio. He said, you don't have a camera good enough to capture my image. You want a good picture of me. I said, oh, yes, I want a good picture of you. And I escorted him up the stairway because he couldn't walk it very well with the brace. And then the door opened and there sat three men stood, three men with little white smocks on and the dental chair behind them.

16:02 And he knew, he knew. That was the moment that he came to grips with the signature. That's when I realized, yes, I was right. He started screaming for his attorney. He was shouting a name. He had eighteen attorneys over a period of time, so it was it was one of those times when he actually had an attorney because he felt he was his own attorney. He was the best attorney for him, because he thought he knew better than anyone else. He had two years of law school, so he felt like, I know, he had a degree in criminology a minor in psychology.

16:45 So now he's screaming for his attorney, just like he knew exactly what we were going to do. And then I told him we're going to take a bite impression, and he said, you can't do that, and I said, I have a warrant, and I started reading the warrant. We read through the warrant for his mouth, and I had the judge put in there that we could use any and all force reasonably necessary to retrieve any evidence that is associated with this case. From his mouth.

17:26 And I showed him the contraptions that they use post mortem to keep the mouth open when they have to do dental work, because they had brought those along. Doctor Suberon had those, and he looked at me. He sat down in the dental chair, smiled and said, can you know I'm not a violent person. Do what you need to do. So, prosecutors would show the jury in this trial in large photographs of the UNEs, the jagged edges of his incisors, the unique pattern of his dental arch hares found in the stolen van were matched microscopically to fibers in the carpet of that sorority house, blood stains, shoe prints, and the blood stains. The testimony of the survivors alone was devastating Carol Duranch, the only woman who had ever fought her way out of his car alive. She took the stand.

18:26 Her voice was steady, but her hands were visibly trembling. She pointed directly at Bundy and described the handcuffs snapping shut, the crowbar rising in the dim light of the Volkswagen, the terror of fighting for her life while he yelled at her that she was under arrest. Kathy Kleiner and Karen Chandler described the sounds they are in the dark, the wet, meaty thud of the oak club coming down again and again. The smell of blood that even to that day they said, made them gag. Cheryl Thomas she could barely speak as she recounted waking up to the nightmare of her own face being destroyed. The media circus surrounding the trial was unlike anything America had ever witnessed.

19:14 Quote ted fever had swept the country. Television cameras were everywhere. Network anchors signed off each night with updates from the Bundy trial. Outside the courthouse, vendors sold ted Bundy for President t shirts and buttons. Women would send him love letters from the hundreds, some proposing marriage, some offering to have his children. Fan clubs would form. Reporters would camp on the sidewalks, and they would interview anyone who would want to talk. Now, while the parents of these dead girls sat in the gallery fighting back sobs, the public would turn it into what was the hottest soap opera on television. That same disarming smile that had once lured young women to their deaths was now being broadcast into living rooms across the nation, turning this serial killer into a twisted celebrity. On July thirty first, nineteen seventy nine, the jury deliberated for less than seven hours before returning a guilty verdict on all counts, and Bundy's reaction he smiled.

20:22 He actually smiled, a slow, satisfied, almost amused smile. The judge sentenced him and did have some parting words for Bundy. I'm not asking for mercy for I find it somewhat absurd to ask for mercy for something I did not do. So I will be tortured for and will suffer for it and receive the pain for that act, but that. Or not share the burden for the guilt. This cord independent off but in agreement with advisor's sentence rendered by the jury as hereby imposed death penley upon the defendant, theodo Robert Bundy.

21:07 I carry yourself, young man. Thank you. I say that to you, to carry yourself. It's a tragedy for this court to see. He is such a total waste. I think the humanity that I've experienced in this court. You're a bright young man. You made a good lawyer. I'd love to have your practice in front of me, but you want another way, partner. Two sentences of death, one for each of the murders of Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy. And when that gavel came down, Bundy stood up, thanked the court with kind of a mocking politeness, and turned toward the camera with a little wave as if he was signing autographs after a successful performance. While the families of Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy left the courtroom in tears, clutching each other for support, Ted Bundy was already planning his next courtroom stunt, but it was a second trial that would be the one that finally broke him. The murder trial of twelve year old Kimberly Lee started in Orlando on January of nineteen eighty. The courtroom was smaller than the Kai Omega Circus in Miami, but the pain inside it was somehow even more unbearable. The air was thicker, It felt heavier, as if the weight of an innocent child's death pressed down on every person that was there. The wooden benches would creak under the weight of Kimberly's family. Her mother rigid eyes, red and swollen, clutching a small stuffed animal her daughter had once loved. Her father stared at the floor,

22:38 jaw clinched so tight it looked like it might shatter. And reporters were there, but they were quieter now, even the media, since this one was different. This wasn't about a sorority house blood bath. This was about a little girl who was stolen from her school in broad daylight. And Ted Bundy once again chose to represent himself. He sat at the defense table in the same carefully pressed suit, hair still perfectly combed, same handsome face, turned towards the jury, but something had shifted. The Kaki charm that had carried him through that first trial looked like it was starting to crack. He still argued every point, still cross examined, witnesses with flair still treated the courtroom like his personal stage, But the evidence was closing in like a noose, and the prosecution laid out the case with precision. They showed the jury the exact spot outside Lake City Junior High where Kimberly had last been seen, the same sidewalk where she had waved to friends just moments before climbing into that white Dodge van. They presented fibers from the van that matched fibers found on Kimberly's clothing. They introduced by mark evidence and bloodstains. In most heartbreaking of all, they called the searchers who had finally found her tiny body in those remote woods near that old pig pin to the stand. The medical examiner described injuries in clinical detail,

24:10 the blunt forced trauma to her skull, the signs of sexual assault so savage that even hardened detectives had wept when they saw the photos. The gallery wept openly. Mothers covered their mouths, and fathers looked like they might lunge across the room. But Bundy never flinched. He objected, he smirked. He tried to charm the female jurors with that same smile. And even when the judge warned him, even when the evidence painted an unmistakable picture of a monster raping and murdering a child, Bundy kept performing as if this were some elaborate game that he could win with the right legal maneuver or the right wink at the right moment.

24:53 And on February twelfth of nineteen eighty, the jury took less than two hours to reach a guilty vertic. When the foreman read the words guilty of first degree murder, a sound moved through the courtroom that no one there will ever forget, a collective broken sob from Kimberly's family that seemed to rise to the very depths of human grief. Her mother would collapse against her husband. Her father let out a low animal sound of pure agony. The relief was there, but it was buried under years of unimaginable pain. And then came the sentencing. Bundy stood up one last time, still trying to control the narrative. He made a rambling, self serving statement about the fairness of the trial and about how the system had failed him, and about how he was the real victim of circumstance, and the judge, a man who had sat through every horrifying detail, looked at him with cold disgust, and pronounced the sentence death by lecture chair. Bunny didn't cry, he didn't beg simply smiled that same empty, chilling smile and said thank you, your honor, as if he had just been handed a parking ticket instead of a death warrant for the rape and murder of a child. The families of his victims had justice, though it was impossible to gain closure. Two death sentences for the Kyomega murtyrs and another for Kimberly Leech multiple death. The warrants now hung over his head,

26:26 and the state of Florida had made it clear. Ted Bundy would die in the electric chair, But even then, the monster wasn't finished fighting. He would spend the next nine years on death row, filing appeal after appeal, graining interviews, manipulating the media, and refusing to show even one ounce of genuine regret, while the parents of his victims aged under the weight of their grief, while survivors woke up screaming from nightmares that never fully left them. Ted Bundy sat in a climate controlled cell, eating prison food, reading law books, and still believing he could somehow beat the system one last time. Death row would become his last stage, his final act of manipulation. Nine long years after that final death sentence was handed down in the Kimberley Lee trial, those appeals finally ran out. Ted Bundy had spent the last decade on death row at Florida State Prison, manipulating everyone around him until the very end. He granted interviews to journalists, he would dangle the promise of more confessions in exchange for delays, and he even married a woman who had fallen in love with him years prior. He fathered a child with that woman while behind bars. As crazy as that sounds, he would file appeal after appeal, each one buying him a little more time in his climate controlled cell, eating prison food, reading law books, and

27:58 still believing right up to the last possible second that his charm might save him. But it didn't. And I'm going to deviate for just one second, because it probably shocked you to hear just now that Ted Bundy got married and had a child in prison, and you may want to hear that story. So I'm going to tell you about Carol Boone, who he would marry while being in prison. So Bundy had actually known Carol Boom for five years prior to his arrest. They had met while working together for the Department of Emergency Services in Olympia, Washington. They became fast friends. They stayed in touch, and even though he was arrested for these murders, Boom would say in interviews during his trial she did not believe Bundy was a killer, even though obviously the evidence was overwhelming. Well at the point of his arrest, they wanted to get married, but no one would agree to marry them because everyone knew that Bundy was a psychotic kill, except apparently Boone. So Bundy, despite being a cold blooded killer, he was also extremely smart, and he comes up with a plan. He hires a notary to sit in the courtroom during his trial. Then, because he was representing himself, he calls Carol Boone to the stand under the pretense of being a character witness. And while Carol Boone is on the stand, he asked this, and listen closely, because you know it's seventies TV.

29:29 Care you will America? Yes, yes, I want. Those vows were exchanged in front of a notary and a judge. Under Florida law, the marriage is actually legal and binding, even though the judge was not aware of it. Now, they had also had a daughter together, which conjugal visits they're not allowed in the state of Florida, but according to Carol Boone, the guards would look the other way and allow it in those days as it pertained to Bundy. So Carolyn ted they have a daughter. They named the daughter Rose, and as the story is told, Ted and Carol were married until nineteen mayby six, when Bundy confessed to Carol he did indeed commit these murders. And when she learns that they never spoke or saw each other again.

30:24 And where is she today? Well, there are theories, of course, as to what exactly happened to Rose the daughter. She would be in her forties now, how she spent her youth, where she went to school, what kinds of friends she made, or what she does for a living. All of that has remained a mystery for obvious reasons. As Ted Bundy's child chances her high that Rose purposely maintains a low profile. Now. Some speculate she changed her name and is living in Oklahoma as one Abigail Griffin, but nobody knows for sure now as for Carol Boone. She died in twenty eighteen in a retirement home in Seattle, Washington. I wanted to deviate and give you that bit of information, but we will move on and Bundy he conducted one final interview in an attempt to stay his execution, just two days from the date, and it was with doctor Dobson, his longtime psychiatrist, and it may be the most telling interview of all, very interesting, especially his ability to manipulate. I found it so interesting, as a matter of fact, that at the end of this episode I included it so you can hear it the same way I did, so if you're interested in that, listen after I write this one up.

31:47 But we'll get back to it. On the morning of January twenty fourth, nineteen eighty nine, the sun rises over Stark, Florida, and outside the prison walls, a circus had gathered. Vendorsoul quote burn Bundy burned T shirts and hot dogs to cheering crowds. Hundreds of people held signs and candles, some laughing, some crying, some simply standing in silent vigil for their daughters, sisters, or friends who would never come home. Inside the prison, the atmosphere much quieter, heavier, almost clinical. Guards moved with purpose. The electric chair, known as Old Sparky waited in a small, brightly lit execution chamber, its wooden arms worn smooth by the hands of previous condemned men, and its leather stripes cracked and stained. At seven o'clock am ted Bundy was led to that chamber. His last meal consisted of medium rare steak eggs over easy hash Brown's toast with butter, jelly, milk, coffee, and juice. He had spent the night writing letters and making last minute phone calls, still trying to control the narrative, even as that clock ticked down, and when the guard stripped him into the chair, thick leather belts across his chest, arms, and legs, that metal helmet lowered onto his shaved head, A black hood pulled over his face. He finally spoke.

33:17 His last words were calm, almost blite. Quote, I'd like to give my love to my family and friends unquote. No apology, no confession of the full truth, no acknowledgment of the thirty plus young women whose lives he had stolen, the families he had shattered, the little girl he had taken from the school yard, just one final empty performance for the cameras he knew were waving outside, And at seven oh six am, the switch was thrown. Two thousand vaults serveged through his body, his muscles locked, his fists clenched so tightly the knuckles turned white. Beneath the strips.

34:01 A thin wisp of smoke rose from the helmet. The smell of burning flesh and ozone filled the small room. His body would jerk violently, once twice, and then still. The doctors confirmed it at seven sixteen am, Theodore Robert Bundy was dead. Outside the prison walls, the crowd erupted in cheers and applause. Fireworks cracked in the distance. Strangers would hug each other. Some victims' families wept with a mixture of relief and exhaustion that no words can properly capture. For the first time in fifteen years, the long nightmare that had begun with Karen Sparks in that Seattle basement seemed at last to be over. And this is where the story doesn't really end, because the evil ted Bundy left behind. It didn't die with him in that electric chair.

34:56 It lives on in the survivors who still wake up screen mean from nightmares of a polite stranger with an arm in a sling. It lives in the parents who buried their daughters and never got to see them graduate, get married, or hold their own children. It lives in communities that still locked their doors at night because one man proved that evil could wear the perfect smile and knock on your door at any hour. It lives in the way we teach our children now. Stranger danger wasn't just a slugan. It was born from the terror Bundy spread from coast to coast. His crimes changed everything. Law enforcement created the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program because the fragmented jurisdiction by jurisdiction chaos that let him kill across state lines for years could never be allowed to happen again.

35:51 Missing persons reports began to be taken seriously. Bite mark evidence became admissible in court. The public finally learned that the clean, charming man next door could be far more dangerous than the shadowy figure lurking in an alley. Bundy didn't just murder women, He murdered trust itself. He taught an entire generation that appearances can lie, that politeness can be a weapon, and that the most terrifying monsters well they don't look like monsters at all. He took more than thirty young lives. No one knows the real number, but experts say it could be upwards of one hundred.

36:32 He stole futures that can never be replaced. He left scars on families that will never fully heal, and even in death, his evil lingers a warning etched into the history of crime, a reminder that darkness doesn't always hide in the shadows. Sometimes it walks right up to you in broad daylight, smiles and asks for help. And that is the last most fine shade of evil that Ted Bundy ever shot us. So there you have it, and if you'd like to listen further to the final interview from Ted Bundy, I've included it right after this podcast and don't go anywhere for everyone else. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of fifty Shades of Evil.

37:23 I am Jim Chapman, much love Ted. It is about two thirty in the afternoon. You are scheduled to be executed tomorrow morning at seven o'clock. If you don't receive another stay. What is going through your mind? What thoughts have you had in these last few days. I will kid you to say that it's something that I am feel that I am in control of, or something that I've come to terms with, because I haven't. It's a moment by moment thing. Sometimes I feel very tranquil. In other times I don't feel tranquil at all. What's going through my mind right now is to use the minutes and hours that I have left as fruitfully as possible and see what happens. So it helps to to live in the moment, in the in the essence that we use it productively. So I'm right now, I'm feeling calm, and I in large part because I'm here with you.

38:26 For the record, you are guilty of killing many women and girls. Yes, yes, that's true. Ted, How did it happen? Take me back? What are the antecedents. Of the behavior that we've seen so much grief, so much sorrow, so much pain for so many people. Where did it start? How did this moment come about? That's the question of the hour, and and one that not only people much more intelligent than I have been working on for uh for years, but one that I've been working on for years and trying to understand it. Yeah, is there enough time to explain it all?

39:16 Uh? I don't know. I think I understand it though. I understand what happened to me to the extent that I I I I can see how certain feelings and ideas UH developed in me to the point where I began to act out on them certain very violent and very destructive feeling. Right, let let's go back then to those ruts. First of all, you, as I understand it, were raised in what you consider to. Have been a healthy home. After you were not physically abused, You were not sexually abused, you were not emotionally abused. No, no way. I. And that's part of the tragedy of this little situation is because UH I grew up in a wonderful home with two dedicated and loving say one of UH five brothers and sisters. A home where we as our as children were the focus of of my parents' lives, where we regularly attended church. UH two Christian parents who did not drink, they did not smoke.

40:15 There was no gambling, there was no physical abuse of fighting in the home. I'm not saying this was leave at the Beaver wasn't well. No, I don't know that such a home exists, but it was a fine, solid Christian home, and nobody uh shuh. I hope no one will try to take the easy way out and to try to blame or otherwise accuse my f uh my family of contributing to this, because uh I know, and I'm trying to tell you as honestly as I know how what happened. And I think this is a message I'm gonna get across. But as a young uh, a young boy, and I mean the boy of uh twelve or thirteen, certainly that I encountered outside the home again uh in uh i the local grocery store, the local uh uh drug store, the softcore pornography, what people call softcore.

41:11 But as I think I I explained to you last night, doctor Dobson and an anecdote the the as young boys do, we explored the the back roads and sideways and byways of our neighborhood, and oftentimes people would dump the garbage and whatever they were cleaning out of their house, and from time to time we'd come across uh pornographic books of a harder nature than ah more of uh graphic you might say, a more explicit nature than we would encounter let's say, in your local grocery store. And this also included such things as, let's say, detective magazines. And uh more horse violence. Yes, yes, and I I I And this is something I think I want to emphasize, is the the the the most damaging uh uh kinds of pornography. And my again, I'm I'm talking from personal experience, uh hard, real personal experience.

42:04 The most damaging kinds of pornography are those that involved violence, uh and sexual violence. Because the wedding of those two forces, as as I know only too well, brings about behavior that it's just uh hm, is just uh too terrible to describe. Now, walk me through that what was going on in your mind at that time? Okay, before we go any further, I think it's important to me and the people, the people believe what I'm saying to tell you that that I'm not blaming pornography and not saying that it caused me and to go out and do certain things. And I take full responsibility for whatever I've done and all the things that I've done.

42:45 That's not the question here. The question A and and and the issue is how this kind of literature contributed and helped mold and and shape the kinds of violent behavior fueled your fatalities. Well in in the beginning, it fuels this kind of thought process. Then it at a certain time it's instrumental in what type would say, crystallizing it make it in making into something which is almost a like a separate entity inside and that in and at that point you're at the verge or I was at the verge of acting out on this, on this kind of these kinds of things. I want really wanna understand that you had gone about as far as you could go in your own fantasy life with printed material, and you made or printed in video or film.

43:34 Or film magazine. Is what happened. And and then there was the urge to take that little step or a big step over to a physical. Right event, and it happens. It It happened in stages gradually. It doesn't necessarily not to me at least happen overnight. My experience with i'd say pornography generally, but with the pornography that deals on a violent level with the sexuality, is that once you become addicted to it, and I look at this as a kind of addiction, uh, like other kinds of addiction, of addiction, you keep I would keep looking for more pope, more explicit, more graphic signs of material like an addiction. You keep craving something which is harder, harder, something which which gives you a greater uh sense of uh of of uh excitement, until you reach the point where the pornographamily goes so far, you reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if if maybe actually doing it will give you that which is beyond just reading about it or looking at it.

44:45 How long did you stay at that point before you actually assaulted someone? Well, yeah, you see that is a very delicate point. I I I I in my own development, and we're talking about something, we're talking about having reached the point or uh a a gray area that surrounded that point over a course of it, you know, for year well I wa, I would say, I would say a couple of years. And what was I was dealing with? There were very strong inhibitions against criminal behavior, of violent behavior that had been conditioned into me, bred into me in my environment, in my neighborhood, in my church, uh, in my school, things which said no this is wrong. I mean just I mean even to think of it as wrong, but a l certainly to do what is wrong. And you're on w I'm on that edge in these the last they they you might say, the last vestiges of restraint, uh, the barriers to actually doing something were being tested constantly and assault uh assailed through the kind of fantasy life that was fueled largely of bi pornography. Do you remember what pushed you? Do you remember the decision to go for it?

46:04 Do you remember where you decided to throw caution to the wind. Again When you say pushed, I don't I I know what you're saying. I don't wanna be that I was that I was some helpless kind of a victim. And yet uh uh, we're talking about an influence, which that is the influence of violent types of media and and violent pornography, which hadn't w was a indispensable link in the chain of behavior, of the chain of events that led to the behaviors, to the to the dessaults, to the murderers and what and what have you. It's a it's a very difficult thing to describe, uh we uh, the the sensation of the the I uh. Uh of of reaching that point where you knew where I knew.

47:10 That it W. It was like something had say, snapped that I knew that uh, that I couldn't control anymore. That these barriers that that I had had been I had learned as a child, uh, that had been instilled in me were not enough to hold me back with respect to seeking out a and harming somebody. Would it be accurate to call out a uh A frenzy, A sexual frenzy. Well, yes, I that's one way to describe it. A compulsion I A a building up of of this destructive energy. Uh again U I UH. Another factor here the way I haven't mentioned as the use of alcohol, but I think that th What alcohol did uh in conjunction with let's say my exposure to pornography, was alcohol reduced my inhibitions.

48:04 At the same time, the the the fantasy life that were fueled by pornography, UH eroded them further. You see, in the early days, you were nearly always about half drunk when you did these things. Is that right? Yes? Yes? UH? Was that always true? I? I would say that that was generally the case almost w W without saying. Alright, I if I can understand it. Now. There is this battle going on within. There are the conventions that you've been taught. There's the right and wrong that you learned as a child, and then there is this this uh unbridled passion UH fueled by your plunge into hardcore violent pornography.

48:50 And those things are at war with each other. Yes, and then with the UH alcohol diminishing the UH, the inhibitions. UH you let go. Well, I I yes, and to you can summarize it that way, and that's accurate, certainly, and it it just occurred to me that some people would would say that, well, I I've seen that stuff and it doesn't do anything to me, And I can understand that. I don't n Virtually everyone uh can be exposed to so called pornography and while they were aroused to it to one degree or another and not go out and do anything wrong. Now, addictions are like that they affect some people more than they affect others. Well, that there is a percentage of people affected by hardcore pornography in a very violent way, and you're obviously one of 'em.

49:39 That was a major component. And I don't know why I was vul uh vulnerable to it. All I know is that uh that it uh that it had an uh an impact on me. Uh that was just so uh central to the development of the violent behavior that I engaged in. Ted After sure, you committed your first murder, what was the emotional effect on you? What happened in the days after that? Well? Again this please understand that that even all these years later, it's very difficult to talk about it, and I and and reliving it through talking about it. That it's uh difficult to say the least, But I want you to understand the what happened. It was like coming out of some kind of horrible trance or or dream. I could only liken it too after you know, I don't want to over dramatize it, but to have been possessed by something so awful and so alien, and then the next morning wake up from it, remember what happened, and realize that basically, I mean the in the eyes of the law, certainly in the eyes of God, you're responsible a a to have to wake up in the morning and and realize what I had done and with a clear mind

51:12 and all my essential moral and ethical feelings intact at that moment. Uh uh absolutely horrified that I was capable of doing something like that. You really hadn't known that before. Uh. There is just absolutely no way to describe first the brutal urge to do that kind of thing, and then what happens is once it it has been more or less satisfied and received you might say U or spent that that sense that a kind of energy level receives, and basically I became my myself again. I And I want people to understand this too, And I'm not saying this gratuitously because it's important people understand this that basically I was a normal person, uh I I I wasn't uh some guy hanging out uh at bars or a bum or I wasn't a pervert in the sense that you know, people look at somebody and say, I know there's something wrong with him and just tell I mean I I I W was essentially a normal person. I had good friends, I I UH, I live a normal life except for this one small but very potent and very destructive segment of it that I kept very secret and very close to myself and didn't let let anybody

52:44 know about it. And part of the shock and horror for my dear friends and family wa years ago when I was first arrested, was that they just there was no clue. They looked at me, and they looked at the you know, the the all American boy, and I'm uh, I mean that wasn't per p, but it's I I wanna be. I I was okay, okay, I I was a The basic humanity and basic spirit that God gave me was intact, but unfortunately it became overwhelmed at times. I think people need to recognize that it's not some kind of the the The those of us who are who have been so much influenced by violence in the media, in particular pornographic violence, are not some kinds of inherent monsters.

53:37 We are your sons, and we are your husbands, and we grew up in regular families, and pornography can reach out and snatch a kid out of any house. Today. He A snatched me out of my home. It snatched me out of my home twenty thirty years ago. A A. And as diligent as my parents were, uh, and they were diligent in protecting their children, and as good a Christian home as we had, and we had a wonderful Christian home. Uh, there is no protection against the kinds that the kinds of influences that are loose in the society that that that tolerates m.

54:23 You you feel this really deeply, don't you? Ten Outside these walls right now, there are several hundred reporters that wanted to talk to you, yeh, And you ask me to come here from California because you had something you wanted to say. This hour that. We have together, Uh is not just an interview with a man who's scheduled to die tomorrow morning. I am here and you're here r because of this message that you're talking about. Right here, you really feel that hard core porography and the doorway to it, soft corporography is doing untold damage to other people, in causing other women to be abused and killed the way you did ours.

55:15 Listen, I I'm no social scientists, and I haven't done a survey. I mean, I I don't pretend that I know what John Q Citizen thinks about this. But I've lived in prison for a long time now, and I've met a lot of men who were motivated to commit violence just like me, and without exception, every one of them was deeply involved in pornography, without question, without exception, deeply influenced and consumed by an addiction to pornography, There's no question about it. The FBI's own study on serial homicide shows that the most common interests among serial killers is pornography. That's true, and it's and it's real. It's true.

56:04 Ted. What would your life have been like without that influence? You can only speculate. Yeah, well, I I know it would've been far better, not just for me, and and it's a excuse me for being so self centered here, it would have been a lot better for me and lots of other people. I know that lots of other innocent people, victims and families. It would have been a lot better. There's no question but that it would have been uh ah a A a fuller life. Uh, it's certainly in the a life that would not have involved I'm absolutely certain would not have evolve involved this kind of violence that I have been, that I have committed.

56:53 I'm sure, Ted. I if uh, you know, if I were able to ask you the questions that are being asked out there. Mm uh. One of the most important as you come down to perhaps your final hours, are you thinking about all those victims out there and their families. Well, who are so wounded. You know, years later, their lives have not returned to normal, They will never return to normal. Absolute, are you carrying that load? That weight is the remorse they are. Again. I I know that people will accuse me of being self serving, but we're beyond that now. I mean, I'm just telling you how I feel. But through God's help, I have been able to come to the point where I've much too late, but n better late than never feel it hurt and the pain that I am responsible for. Yes, absolutely, In the past few days, myself and a number of investigators have been talking about unsolved cases uh murders that I was involved in. And it's hard to it's hard to talk about all these years later because it revives in me all those terrible feelings and those thoughts that I have steadfastly and an and and uh diligently dealt with and I think successfully with the love of God.

58:21 And yet it's reopened that and I've felt the pain, and I've felt the horror again of all that. And I can only hope that those who I've harmed, those who I've caused so much grief, even if they don't believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, will believe what I'm saying now that there is loose in their towns and their communities, people like me today who's dangerous impulses are being fueled day in and day out by violence in the media in its various forms, particularly s sexualized violence.

59:14 And what scares me a A And let's come into the present now, because what I'm talking about happened thirty twenty thirty years ago, that is in my formative stages. And what scares in the polls me, doctor Dobson, is when I see what's on cable TV. Some of the movies, I mean, some of the violence in the movies are that come into homes today with stuff that they that they wouldn't show in an X rated adult theaters thirty years ago. This stuff the slasher movies. Since you're talking. About that stuff is I'm telling you from personal experience, the most that is graphic violence on screen, particularly as it gets into the home. The children who may be unattended to or or unaware that they may be a Ted Bundy who has that that vulnerability to that that predisposition to be influenced by that kind of behavior, by that kind of of of uh movie, that kind of violence.

1:00:13 Their kids sitting out there switching the TV dial around and come upon these movies late at night or I don't know when they're on, but they're on and any kid can watch 'em. It's scary when I think what would have happened to me if I had seen I'm scary enough, m I mean that I just ran into stuff outside the home. But T t th to to know that children are watching that kind of thing today or can pick up their phone and dial away for it or send away for it. Uh uh. Can you help me understand this desensitization process that took place? U? What was going on in your mind? Well? By desensitization, I I I describe it in specific terms, is that they each time I'd harm someone, each time I'd kill someone, to be an enormous amount of uh uh n, especially at first, uh enormous amount of of of horror, guilt remorse afterwards, But then that impulse to do it again would come back even stronger. Now believe me, I didn't f I. I. The unique thing about how this worked, doctor Dobson, is that I still felt in my regular life, the full range of of guilt and and uh remorse about other things, UH regret and uh.

1:01:32 You had this compartmentalize. This compartmentalized very well focused uh uh a very sharply focused area where i'd it was like a black hole. It was like a you know, like a crack and everything that fell into that crack just disappeared. Does that make sense? Yeah? It does. Uh. I One of the the final uh murders that you committed, of course, UH was apparently a little Kimberly. Leech twelve years of age. I think they the public outcry is greater there because an innocent child was taken from a from a playground. What did you feel after that? Wha was there? Were there they normal emotions three days later? Where were you did? I? I can't really talk about that right now.

1:02:25 That's oh yeah, it's too painful. I would like to, uh, I like to be able to convey to you what that that uh, that experience is like that. I can't d I won't able to talk about that. Okay, I can't begin to understand. Well, I can try, but I'm I'm aware that I can't begin to understand the pain that the parents of these of these children that I have and these young women that I have harmed, feel and I can't d restore really much to them, if anything, and I won't pretend to and I don't even expect them to forgive me, and I'm not asking for it. That that f kind of forgiveness is of God.

1:03:26 And if they have it, they have it, they don't, well, maybe they'll find it someday. Do you deserve the punishment the state is inflicted upon you. That's a very good question, and I'll I'll answer very very honestly. I I don't wanna die. I'm not gonna kitch your I'll ki kid you or not. I deserve certainly the the the most extreme punishment society has, and I deserve. I think society deserves to be protected from me and from others life me, that's for sure. I think what I h a what I hope will come of our discussion is I think society deserves to be protected from itself because because if we as as we've been talking, there are there are forces that loose in in in this country, particularly again uh this kind of violent a m of pornography, where on the one hand, well meaning decent people will condemn behavior of a Tad Bundy while they're walking past a a a a magazine rack full of the very kinds of things that send young kids down the road to be ted bundies. That's the irony we're talking here, not just about more. We're talking I'm What I'm talking about is going beyond retribution, which is what people want with me, going beyond retribution

1:04:56 and punishment, because there is no way in the world that killing me is going to restore uh, those beautiful children of their parents and and and correct an and and and soothe the pain. But I'll tell you there are lots of other kids playing in streets around this country today who are going to be dead tomorrow and the next day and the next day and next month because other young people are reading the kinds of things and seeing the kinds of things that are available in the media today. Ted. As you would. Imagine, there's tremendous cynicism about you on the outside. And I suppose for good reason. I'm not sure that there's anything that you could say that people would uh would believe.

1:05:39 Some people would believe, yeah, an and uh. And yet you told me last night, and I have heard this through our mutual friend John Tanner, that you have UH accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ, and UH are a follower and a believer in him. Do you draw strength from that, yuh, as you which these final hours I do. I can't say that being in the valley of the Shadow of Death is. It's something that I've become all that accustomed to. And then I'm you know, and then I'm strong and nothing's bothering me. Listen, it's no fun, it's it's you know, it's it's uh. It's gets kind of lonely. And yet I have to remind myself that every one of us UH will go through to someday in one way or another, and countless millions who have walked this earth before us have So this is just an experience which we all share. And yeah, right,