Feb. 19, 2025

"Bad Teachers" Episode Nine: Mary Kay Leterneau

"Bad Teachers" Episode Nine: Mary Kay Leterneau

A “Bad Teachers” Series Episode

In this episode of Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite, “Bad Teachers” series episode, Jim brings you inside the arguably the most infamous case of an inappropriate teacher/student relationship with the shocking case...

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Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 1

A “Bad Teachers” Series Episode

In this episode of Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite, “Bad Teachers” series episode, Jim brings you inside the arguably the most infamous case of an inappropriate teacher/student relationship with the shocking case of Mary Kay Leterneau, who was convicted of a sexual relationship with a 12-year-old student, had (2) children, and married the student later in life.

#badteachers #exposed #podcast #scandals #Marykayleterneau #villi

Timestamps
00:22 The Infamous Mary Kay Letourneau
04:34 Early Life and Family Background
08:10 The Teacher-Student Connection
12:52 Crossing Boundaries
14:36 The Beginning of a Scandal
18:21 Arrest and Media Frenzy
19:27 The Courtroom Drama
23:07 Release and Repercussions
29:31 The Aftermath of the Affair
33:09 Reuniting Against the Odds
35:29 Marriage and Public Attention
39:22 A Troubled Ending
41:11 Reflections and New Beginnings
47:45 The Impact

For collaborations, promotions, or appearances email Jim at: https://www.exposedpodcastfiles@gmail.com

Join us on Patreon for commercial free early releases, bonus content and more by clicking HERE

Sources

  1. State vs. Letourneau. 17 Apr 2000.
  2. Associated Press. “Appeals court allows…” News on 6. 18 Apr 2000.
  3. Tate, Cassandra. “Letourneau, Mary Kay.” History Link. 05 Aug 2004.
  4. Mankiewicz, John. “A love like no other.” NBC News. 02 Jun 2006.
  5. Staff Writer. “Mary K. Letourneau…” WTOL 11. 27 Jan 2011.
  6. Associated Press. “Mary Kay Letourneau’s…” CBS News. 30 May 2017.
  7. Bowerman, Mary. “A look back at…” USA Today. 31 May 2017.
  8. Finn, Natalie. “The Shocking Story…” Yahoo! News. 06 Jul 2024.
  9. Aiello, McKenna. “Mary Kay Letourneau…” E! News. 09 Jun 2017.
  10. Hohman, Maura. “Vili Fualaau recounts…” Today. 15 Sep 2020.
  11. Helling, Steve. “Mary Kay Letourneau…” People. 14 Oct 2021.
  12. Scanlan, Rebekah.
WEBVTT

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Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of

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the Elite. I'm your host, Jim Chapman, and we are

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back with another Bad Teachers episode. And look of all

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the Bad Teacher episodes that I have brought you so far,

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the subject of the podcast today, by far, ranks in

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the top spot as the most infamous bad teacher of

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them all. Even people who aren't necessarily crime junkies or

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society and culture junkies, they still know the name Mary K. Laturno. This,

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by far is the one I've had requested the most.

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So I'm bringing you what you want, and that is

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her story. And we're going to start where we only started,

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at the beginning, before the teachers were teachers, and in

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Mary Kay Laturno's case, she was born in Tustin, California.

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This was on July thirtieth of nineteen sixty two. Her

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full name is actually Mary Catherine Laturno, but she was

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known to family and friends as Mary Kay, and her

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parents were what most people will consider regular parents. Her

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dad was a community college instructor and he was a politician.

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Her mother was a former chemist, and her family was

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what you would call strong Republicans. She grew up in

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a very large family as well. She was the third

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of seven children, but the first daughter, and she was

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raised in a very strict Catholic household. Now, if you

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just noticed, I mentioned that her mom was a former chemist.

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As the family started to grow, her mother became a

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stay at home mother, which likely means she worked harder

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than she ever worked at her job, especially with a

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family of that size. And I also mentioned her father

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was a politician, now in addition to being a college professor.

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When Mary Kay was two years old, he started a

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political career. He ran for a seat in the state

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legislature as a Republican and he actually held positions as

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a senator and a congressman for the state of California.

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And believe it or not, in nineteen seventy two, Mary

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Kay Laturno's dad ran for president of the United States,

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which incidentally, that presidential election was won by Richard Nixon. Now,

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in nineteen seventy three, the Laturne family, they had some

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tragedy hit when Mary Kay's brother drowned in the family

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pool at their home. He was three years old. He

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was playing with another brother in the shallow end and

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while no one was held responsible for that toddler's death.

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Mary Kay would later claim that incident caused a major

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rift between her mother and herself because as a result

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of the incident, her mother got very protective, as she

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would imagine, and she tasked Mary Kay with watching her

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brothers constantly. She said her mother got very cold with

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her after that incident. So in nineteen seventy eight, her father,

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who during this time was a state senator. He was

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reelected and he had intentions of running again for the

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nineteen eighty two state Senate election in California, but his

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political career was permanently damaged when during that year it

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was revealed that he had fathered two children outside of

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his marriage during an affair with a former student at

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a college where he taught political science. Now that affair

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caused Mary Kay's parents to separate, but they did reconcile later.

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Now later on in life, friends said that the scandal

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really rocked Mary Kay, with one of her friends saying

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her ability to make decisions in her life based on

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things that were good for her were affected. She totally

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lost the ability. She lived in a fantasy world because

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it was the only world she could stand. Another friend

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commented that her parents were just very stressed. She theorized

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that mary Kay never felt comfortable talking to them about

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her feelings. So Mary Kay eventually graduates from Connolly High School,

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which was an all girls Catholic school in Anaheim, California,

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same place where Walt disneyland is and she was a

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member of the cheerleading squad. She then attends Arizona State

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University in Timpe, Arizona, and it's while in college that

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she meets a guy who was attending Arizona State by

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the name of Steve Laturno. They start dating and uh oh,

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mary Kay ends up pregnant. Now, being that her parents

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were so strict, of course, what do you think they

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told her to do? They said, you got to marry

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this guy. And although she stated later on that she

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was not in love with Steve, she marries him in

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nineteen eighty four and drops out of school as he does.

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They're going to start this life together and they need

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to get jobs, like right out of the gate was

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their thought process. It was during this pregnancy she does

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find out that she's carrying twins, but sadly, one of

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those embryos miscarries while steal in the womb, Mary does

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give birth to the surviving twin, which became the first

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of the couples for children. So in nineteen eighty one,

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the couple moves to Anchorage, Alaska. Steve apparently found work

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as a baggage handler at Alaska Airlines, and Steve was

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from Alaska, so he felt comfortable and they move the family.

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Then after a year in Alaska, they end up moving

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to Seattle, Washington. Steve gets transferred there. He's kind of

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moving up the ladder at Alaska Airlines, and shortly after

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arriving in Seattle, Mary Kay gives birth to their second child.

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It's nineteen eighty nine at this point, and Mary Kay

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she's determined to get some sort of degree, so she

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graduates from school in nineteen eighty nine and she earns

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her teaching certificate. The same year that she gets that certificate,

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she is hired to teach second grade at Shorewood Elementary School,

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which was the suburbs of Seattle, and she was highly

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praised by both students and parents as being just a

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phenomenal teacher, had an amazing record within that school district.

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She was so good, in fact, that they had a

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waiting less to get into her class. That's how awesome

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a teacher, Mary Kay Laturno was so at this point

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in life, her and Steve appear to be just living

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this great life, having kids, both moving up their perspective

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professional ledders, and it continued that way. So in nineteen

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ninety one, Mary Kay Laturno, she's preparing for a brand

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new school year. She's teaching second grade still and amongst

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her students was a student in second grade, a child

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by the name of Billie Falau, who was eight years old,

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and Laturno kind of took to flaw by all accounts.

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She introduced him to the piano, she bought him art supplies,

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she encouraged him to explore his obvious talent for art,

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even at a very young age. All the things you

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would expect from a good teacher.

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Right.

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So let's get into the limited background obviously on Villi Filial,

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which was chaotic to say the least, even at this

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very young age. Filile was a part of an American

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Samoan family. Filile was a confused and an emotionally needy child.

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His home life was sometimes violent. Even he and his

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three older siblings were being raised by their mother, Sunna Filile,

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who worked very long hours in a bakery. He hardly

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knew his father, Louave, a former auto mechanic. He was

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occasionally a preacher in a regular president inmate. His father

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had actually bothered eighteen children with five women. He had

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spent time in prison for armed robbery, and later in life,

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Falio would actually recall watching pornographic movies with his great grandfather.

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He said, it's just how we lived, so really explosive

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family life that this kid was living, and Mary Kay

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kind of took him under her wing, and Philile he

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moves to third grade, in fourth grade, in fifth grade

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and Laturno, she continues, what you would think would have

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just been a mentoring type deal of Fhlile keeping up

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with him, really working with him on his art, which

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continued to stand out as a major talent that he had.

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Later in life, Laturno would say to the Seattle Times

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that there was a respect and insight, a spirit, an

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understanding between us that grew over time. It was the

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kind of feeling you have with a brother or sister,

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a feeling that they're a part of your life forever.

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I felt one day he might marry my daughter. So

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in the fall of nineteen ninety five, Laturno was again

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Filile's teacher, this time for sixth grade. Now, by this point,

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Laturno's marriage was not good. It was kind of faltering,

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and her father also had cancer. At this time, Filile,

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who was twelve, started to occupy more and more of

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her attention and energy. He routinely stayed late with her

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in her classroom, She bought him dinner, often invited him

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to spend the night at her house, and once took

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him on a trip to Alaska with her family. I mean,

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what is going on? How has this not already figured out?

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There's a problem here is beyond me. She also became

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increasingly flirtatious around this time, and Filile would later test

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I once she offered a strip off an article of

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clothing for every answer he got right on a history test. Now,

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by January of nineteen ninety six, Laturno, who at this

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time was thirty four, she suffered a miscarriage, and as

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a result, her marriage and her personal life with her

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husband just totally went into a tailsmith. Now to tell

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you how twisted Laturno was at this point. Later on,

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she would recall when her feelings for Fulao kind of changed,

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and she said it occurred during the summer of nineteen

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ninety six, when Filao was still twelve years old. Laturneri

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said she had discovered that Filial be a friend twenty

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dollars he would have sex with Laturno. Laturno admitted that

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she began fantasizing about him, but she said she had

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promised herself she would not do anything with Fulio before

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her to avoid that blazed my mind. I mean, because

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you know that would just be wrong, right, I mean,

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how messed up is this chick's logic by this point.

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So obviously this kid, he's getting all this attention from

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this pretty teacher. He becomes deeply infatuated with. And one

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day Falile gives Laturno a sterling silver ring that he

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had found on the street, and he asked her to

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marry him. And get this, she takes her husband's ring

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off and she puts his ring on, and she wears

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it every day at school except when her husband would

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come around. So by this point, she is totally fucking

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up this poor kid's mind. And Filile would ask Laturno

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when would he get a kiss from her, and she

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would respond by telling him on the last day of school.

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Now later on later told Barbara Walter she knew Filile

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was interested in her at this point, but she ignored

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his aggressive advances towards her, saying, one time he just

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came straight out and said, would you like to have

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an affair? I thought to myself, don't look at him

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in the eyes. Stay very busy, she said. Filile later

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told her that he was in love with her. She

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described the build up to the affair as a million

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moments that just kept building something very beautiful and scary

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at the same time. I mean, WTF. Now. A few

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days before Fulile's thirteenth birthday, the sexual abuse began. So

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on June eighteenth of nineteen ninety six, police they find

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Laturno and Filial in a car parked outside of Marina.

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She was seen jumping into the front seat while Fulile

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pretended to sleep in the She and Filile they provided

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false names when they were asked for their IDs, and

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Philile lied about his age, saying he was eighteen. So

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the officer he's not an idiot. He's a twelve year

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old kid and he didn't look eighteen. He's very skeptical

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about this and the fact that they were saying they

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were just chilling in the car, and he asked Filial

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for his driver's license, which Filial failed to produce because

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I mean, he's twelve, he doesn't have a driver's license.

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So the officer gets Filau out of the car and

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he asked him if they were having sex, and Filile

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claimed that no touching had taken place, they weren't having sex.

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And then Laturna gets questioned and she tells the officer

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that she and her husband had gotten into an argument

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and Filial, who she said was a family friend who

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had been staying the night with them, witnessed the argument,

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got scared and ran away. Upset, she said that she

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went out to find him and she found him at

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the Marina, so Laturno in Filile. They get taken to

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the police station, where Flile's mother was called, and Miss

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Flile said that Miss Laturno was a well known teacher

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of Villi's and had no issue with the two of

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them being in public, so police they dropped the matter. Later,

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Filial's mother told the Seattle Times quote he said there

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was nothing between them, and I assumed I could trust

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her with my son. She further stated that if police

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had alerted her to the fact that Laturno had lied

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about Filile's age and what had occurred in that car.

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She would not have allowed her son to go back

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to Laturno. But this was not their first sexual encounter.

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Just weeks before this incident at the marina, the two

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had their first sexual encounter shortly before Filial's thirteenth birthday,

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in Laturno's home, after her husband left for work and

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while her four children were asleep. Laturno was thirty four

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at the time. Laturna said later the incident occurred late

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in the night that it didn't stop with just a kiss,

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and I thought that it would, and it just didn't.

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When she was asked if she felt disgusted with herself,

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Laturneri said no, she didn't. She said, for one, I

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loved him very much, and I kind of thought, why

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can't it ever be just a kiss? This is a

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sick woman. And then something really unexpected happens. In September

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of nineteen ninety six, Laturno discovers she's pregnant with Falio's child.

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Falo at this point is entering the seventh grade, so

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she's still married as well at this time, and of course,

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she's hiding all of this, including the pregnancy, from her husband.

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But in February of nineteen ninety seven, Steve Laturno he

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finds out about the relationship after he finds love letters

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00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.200
written by his wife to Flow. And it's important to

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00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.039
note that when he found these letters, he still didn't

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00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.240
realize she was pregnant with the child's kids. He just

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knew they had a fucked up relationship going on. So

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Steve Laturno he confronts Villy, goes to his house, confronts

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00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:36.559
him about it, and told him that if he didn't

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want his mom knowing about this, or anyone knowing about this,

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then it was going to end in VILLI I'm sure

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he's scared shitless at this point. I mean, he's a

252
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thirteen year old child. So he agrees to it, but

253
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he does confide in a family member about the altercation,

254
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and that family member notifies child protective services as well

255
00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:07.799
as school officials, and on March fourth of nineteen ninety seven,

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Mary Kay Laturno is arrested after a relative of her

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00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:18.519
husband also finds out about this because the husband confided

258
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in the relative and contacts the police. Laturno is arrested

259
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:28.160
for rape. So Laturna makes bell and don't forget she's

260
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.599
been pregnant for quite a while with Flile's baby, and

261
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the media picks up on all of this. As a

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00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.680
matter of fact, her four children, ages three to twelve,

263
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were sent to live temporarily with relatives in Washington, d C.

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To protect them from the media. I mean, when this

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story came out, it was the largest story in the country.

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This is well before people realized what an issue these

267
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inappropriate teacher student relationships were. They didn't realize how prevalent

268
00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:06.000
this was way back in nineteen ninety seven. So on

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00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.640
May twenty ninth of that year, Laturno gives birth to

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00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:16.920
she and Villy's first child, a daughter, in Seattle. In

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less than three months later, on August seventh of nineteen

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00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:26.119
ninety seven, Laturno pleaded guilty in King County Superior Court

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to two counts of child rape, although at this hearing

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00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:35.759
she also attempted to depict her relationship with Lao as quote,

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00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:42.119
romantic and consensual rather than predatory. On November fourteenth of

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nineteen ninety seven, the sentencing phase arrived, and more than

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00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:51.559
one hundred reporters and photographers arrived with it. National and

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00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:57.039
international news organizations were covering Laturno's sentencing hearing. It was

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00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:02.079
held before Superior Court Judge Linda Laile, One television producer, said,

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00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:05.359
obviously this is a story because she is a thirty

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00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:07.759
five year old woman. If this was a thirty five

282
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.119
year old man who impregnated a thirteen year old girl,

283
00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.319
he'd be in jail in there be no national story.

284
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Liaturne's request for a special sexual offender sentencing alternative was granted,

285
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.079
and the trial court sentenced her to eighty nine months

286
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:29.960
of total confinement, suspended on various conditions, including three years

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00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.880
of specialized treatment for sexual deviancy. In my opinion, she

288
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:37.839
needed a lot more than three years. For a plea agreement,

289
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.880
her sentence was reduced to six months. Three of that

290
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.720
was suspended, so she ended up with three months in

291
00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.480
a county jail and three years of sex offender treatment.

292
00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:53.480
She was not required initially to register even as a

293
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sex offender, if you can believe that. As part of

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the plea agreement, and this is important, Liturno could not

295
00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:04.720
contact for life. Laturno was additionally sentenced to community custody

296
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.559
for two years to commence upon completion of her terms

297
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.599
of confinement, with a condition that she not received any

298
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.920
tangible or intangible property that is a result of her

299
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.000
commission of the crimes. In other words, she was ordered

300
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.759
not to profit from publishing or otherwise commercializing the story

301
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:28.079
of her crimes that will become important later on. Flyile's

302
00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:30.920
mother spoke at the hearing, and in a prepared statement,

303
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.400
she said she had forgiven Laturno and hoped others would

304
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.039
do the same. She said, Mary is not a bad person.

305
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.400
She is just a human being who made a terrible mistake.

306
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.920
She asks the court to order treatment rather than jail

307
00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:47.359
time for the woman who made her a grandmother. She said,

308
00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:50.359
I feel Mary has been punished enough for her mistake.

309
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.440
I plead, on behalf of my granddaughter, that Mary be

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00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.799
sent to treatment rather than jail. She also spoke of

311
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.880
the effect on her son, who she said, carry guilt

312
00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:04.039
with him as long as she is in jail. A

313
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.640
psychiatrist by the name of doctor Julia Moore said that

314
00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:12.880
Laturno suffered from bipolar disorder formerly known as manic depression,

315
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:17.400
a condition that contributed to her reckless behavior. The psychiatrist

316
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.039
concluded and the judge agreed that with medication, Laturno would

317
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:25.400
be a good candidate for sex offender treatment. So Judge

318
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:29.279
Linda Lyle said she was persuaded by the expert testimony

319
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:31.960
and by the wishes of the victim and his family

320
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:37.319
that community based treatment was appropriate. Judge Lyle told Laturna

321
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.559
that whether she remained free would be completely up to her.

322
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She said, it will not be easy. You will not

323
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.680
simply be released into the community to resume your former life.

324
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From the moment you are released and for the next

325
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few years, your life will not be your own. And

326
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a tearful Laturno promised the judge she would have nothing

327
00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:00.920
more to do with Lyle. She said, I did something

328
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.799
I had no right to do morally or legally. It

329
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.240
was wrong. I'd give you my word it won't happen again.

330
00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:10.880
Please help me, help us all.

331
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:11.319
So.

332
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:16.559
On January tewod of nineteen ninety eight, Mary Kay Laturno

333
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:21.759
is released from the Regional Justice Center in Kent, Washington.

334
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.720
And of course, at that point Laturno had lost her job,

335
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.920
she had pretty much lost her marriage, her home, the

336
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.279
custody of her children, who at this point were living

337
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:37.559
with their father. Then if you did not think this

338
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.640
lady could be any dumber as it relates to her

339
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:45.920
decision making. Four weeks after completing her jail sentence, Laturno

340
00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:52.359
she gets found in a car with Flial by police. Flyal,

341
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:57.160
at this time was fourteen. Laturno initially tried to claim

342
00:23:57.160 --> 00:23:59.240
she was Aligned in the car and he was hiding

343
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:02.160
in the back under a blanket, but police saw him,

344
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:06.359
so they pulled them out. They asked for identification. Both

345
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.559
of them claim they don't have any and give the

346
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.240
police false names, but of course that didn't fly. By

347
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:15.079
this point, every single person in the state of Washington,

348
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.799
and really in the United States knew exactly what Laturno

349
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:22.440
looked like. So they questioned Falial further and he tells

350
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.799
the detective that he and Laturno had kissed frequently, and

351
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:29.160
it also reported that he had touched Laturno on the thigh,

352
00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:33.920
but no sexual intercourse had occurred, and in that car

353
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.160
there was evidence the two had met several times since

354
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:41.599
Laturno's release from jail on January second of that year. Now,

355
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.880
when she was arrested, police found sixty two hundred dollars

356
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:50.680
in cash, baby clothes, and her passport, inside the car.

357
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.480
Receipts for eight hundred and fifty dollars in purchases made

358
00:24:54.519 --> 00:25:00.000
since January twentieth for men's, young men's and infant clothes

359
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:04.599
were also found. Now Laturno claimed the money was for

360
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:08.519
dermatology treatments and for her divorce lawyer, in that some

361
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:11.839
of the men's clothing were gifts for relatives and for

362
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:16.279
herself since she enjoyed wearing oversized men's clothing. She tried

363
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.880
to tell the police Laturno had also purchased a pager

364
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.240
for Flaal to get in touch with her. Yes, pagers

365
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:26.759
were where it was at in nineteen eighty eight. Y'all CPS,

366
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:31.880
of course was alerted and this was a major violation

367
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:37.200
of her conditions of release. And on February sixth of

368
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.480
nineteen ninety eight, Laturno was brought again before Judge Lynda

369
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:44.680
Laud this for the second time in three months. So

370
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.000
this judge, I'm sure she is pissed by this point.

371
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.359
She revokes Laturno's prior plea agreement and she reinstates the

372
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.920
prison sentence of seven and a half years for violating

373
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:01.720
this no contact order. Judge lyostated that the contents found

374
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:04.839
in the Laturno's car indicated that she planned to leave

375
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:08.440
town with flywe in, their nine month old daughter. Both

376
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:12.440
the prosecutor and the probation officer depicted Laturno as a

377
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:16.319
manipulator who didn't believe she needed treatment because she didn't

378
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:19.920
believe she was doing anything wrong. Liaturno's attorney at the time,

379
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:23.319
he made a plea for mercy. He said, quote, society

380
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.240
does not need to be protected from Mary Kay Laturno.

381
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.240
The person that really needs to be protected from Mary

382
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:34.440
Kay Laturno is Mary Kay Laturno. When the attorney finished,

383
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:38.119
the judge told Laturno, this case is not about a

384
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:39.160
flawed system.

385
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:40.319
It's about an.

386
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:45.240
Opportunity that you foolishly squandered. And I can't agree with that.

387
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.240
More So, Laturno is ordered to server sentence at Washington

388
00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:55.160
Correction Center from Women at Gig Harbor, Washington. Now, what

389
00:26:55.400 --> 00:27:01.119
everybody came to find out soon after she returned to

390
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:05.519
prison was hold on to your ass for this one.

391
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:11.839
Laturno was pregnant with the lial's second child at this time,

392
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.599
and it was also during this time she was placed

393
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:20.160
on suicide watch. Laturno's attorney told reporters she's upset that

394
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.200
this news is came out so early in the pregnancy.

395
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.440
It seems like someone at the prison had access to

396
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:30.960
her medical records and release the information prematurely without her consent.

397
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:36.759
And the insanity with this lady. She continues to stay

398
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:39.599
in touch with this kid. One way she would was

399
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:43.799
by sending out messages in milk bottles. She was producing

400
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:47.960
milk in prison for her baby, and she would put

401
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.680
notes inside the caps of the milk as it went out.

402
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:55.920
Somehow she managed to even send audio tapes out, and

403
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.240
she would have prisoners make phone calls for her because

404
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.559
she couldn't cond intact filiwed directly, and then she would

405
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:04.720
just get on the phone. These are supposed to be

406
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:08.319
monitor but obviously they weren't being Now, it may surprise

407
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:12.000
you a lot to know that Steve Laturno and Mary

408
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:15.839
Kay they were not divorced at this time. They were

409
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:21.519
separated to be sure, but on March of nineteen ninety eight,

410
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:25.920
Steve Laturno did indeed file for divorce. He said that

411
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:30.400
their children were handling it pretty well despite their anger. Then,

412
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:35.119
on October sixteenth of nineteen ninety eight, while serving her

413
00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:39.119
second stint in jail. Laterna gives birth to her second

414
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:45.079
daughter by Filial. Hours after the birth, Laturna returned to

415
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:52.920
jail from the hospital. Philial at this time fifteen years old. Unbelievable,

416
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:57.799
so sadly. In March of nineteen ninety nine, Filile he

417
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:04.039
attempts suicide, told Barbara Walters, there's this hopelessness, like nobody

418
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.480
understands you. You can't talk to anyone. I wish I'd

419
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:10.440
had a little better guidance through everything. I don't have

420
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.079
a father, my mother is busy too. No one knew

421
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:16.759
how to deal with it, and I sure didn't know

422
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:19.160
how to deal with it. That is my point with

423
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:23.240
these teacher student inappropriate relationships, and why I push this

424
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:27.640
series so hard. Even with guys and it's a female

425
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.559
doing it, their head gets screwed up. Trust me when

426
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:35.200
I tell you just horrible. In nineteen ninety eight, Laturno

427
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:38.480
in Falile they actually co author a book and it

428
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:42.079
gets published in France and it was called only One

429
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.480
Crime Love. In statements made in the book, Laturno described

430
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:50.799
Fhlile as a soulmate and her companion for life and

431
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:56.480
emotionally mature for his age. An expert on sex offenders,

432
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.839
incidentally named Lucy Burnler. She said it was typical for

433
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.880
sex offenders to make such arguments and that was a

434
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:09.759
way of them rationalizing and justifying their behavior. There's no

435
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:15.960
way this guy was emotionally mature. In nineteen ninety nine,

436
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:19.400
a second book appeared, published in the United States, this

437
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.039
time but it was written with only minimal cooperation from

438
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.920
her and none from Flaw. It was called If Loving

439
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.079
You Is Wrong, and at this point in her imprisonment

440
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.400
she was able to negotiate it where she was allowed

441
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.160
to visits from her children. Now, in regards to those books,

442
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:42.160
they were selling like hotcakes, but Laturno's portion of the royalties.

443
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.799
Of course, they're getting held back by the courts because

444
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:48.319
of that first order that was in place, saying she

445
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:53.000
couldnot profit from her crimes. However, Laturno does fight this,

446
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.119
and in April of two thousand, the State Court of

447
00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:00.000
Appeals ruled that Laturno could not be barred from profit

448
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.240
by selling her story as part of her sentence. So

449
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.079
she does get that money, and it was a substantial amount.

450
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.759
The appellate court also ruled that Laturno could visit with

451
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.720
her six children When asked if the children who she

452
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.480
saw while she was locked up knew anything about what

453
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:20.799
was going on, Laturno later explained in an interview, I

454
00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:24.559
mean the story is that their mother was away at prison.

455
00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:26.079
Who this lady?

456
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:26.640
So.

457
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:31.079
In two thousand and one, Mary Kay Laturno's father dies

458
00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:35.400
and Laturno did request of furlough to attend his funeral

459
00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:41.359
in Fort Meyer, Virginia, but her request was denied. And

460
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:43.880
it was also during this time that she's trying to

461
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:47.640
make the best of prison life. She tutored fellow inmates,

462
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:51.880
she created audio books for blind readers. She even participated

463
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:57.079
in the prison choir, and she rarely missed Catholic Mass

464
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:02.160
at the prison. But because of her notoriety, she was

465
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:06.160
not popular with other inmates and they knew what she

466
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:10.519
had done and whether it's a teacher raping a child

467
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.799
or a man raping a woman that don't like Peedo's

468
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:20.240
in prison staff also viewed Laturno as having a cocky attitude.

469
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.720
She spent eighteen of her first twenty four months in

470
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:30.000
prison in solitary confinement. In one instance, she served six

471
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:35.119
months in solitary when letters she tried to send filile

472
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.559
were intercepted. In one of those letters, she threatened to

473
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:42.119
have him castrated if he had anything to do with

474
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:46.559
other women, but she later said she was joking. So

475
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:51.079
what about those two kids that she had with Villy Well,

476
00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:55.279
Filile's mother was granting custody of his two children, and

477
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.839
Fililes said that having children was a huge change in

478
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.519
his life. He didn't feel like he had support from

479
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:04.759
his family and friend. He said he had no idea

480
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:06.839
what it was like to be a parent because he

481
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.920
was fourteen fifteen years old at the time. So life

482
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:15.599
moves on in Three years later, on August fourth of

483
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:21.119
two thousand and four, Laturno is released from prison. She

484
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:25.480
has to register the next day as a lifetime Level

485
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:31.200
two sex offender with the Sheriff's Office, and following her release, Filial,

486
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:35.039
who is now twenty one, somehow persuaded the court to

487
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:39.720
reverse the no contact order against her. Hours after her release,

488
00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:43.480
Filile's attorney filed a motion to vacate the sentencing order

489
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:47.559
that barred any further contact between the two. Within hours

490
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:51.599
of the no contact order being lifted, Laturno and Flile

491
00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:56.759
had reunited. The attorney argued he is now an adult

492
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.759
and as an adult is requesting the court allow him

493
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:04.359
to associate with other adults of his choosing, specifically Mary

494
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:08.679
Kay Laturno. I would be interested to know the lessener's

495
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:13.000
thoughts on this. What are y'all's thoughts, because this is

496
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.440
kind of a fine line. He is twenty one at

497
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.840
this point. Do you think it was the right thing

498
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.960
to do to go ahead and lift that order? Considering that?

499
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.400
Love to hear your thoughts. The media, of course, was

500
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.159
all over this, and every tabloid as well as the

501
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:33.599
mainstream media was covering the reuniting of these two. I'm

502
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:37.840
as celebrating it. They went on Larry King, Barbara Walters,

503
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:42.920
you name it. In fact, Larry King Live featured Laturno

504
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:47.440
and he asked her about her other kids, and she stated,

505
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:50.199
I know that my other children and I are going

506
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.320
to work very closely through this and use as many

507
00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:56.320
resources as we have to make sure we grow through

508
00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:59.119
this in a healthy way. I'm very sensitive to each

509
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:03.360
of my older children developmental level and their understanding right now,

510
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:06.079
and I'm there for them. They're in Alaska, but I

511
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:09.519
stay very very close in touch with them. It's just

512
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.519
not appropriate to talk about with my ten or twelve

513
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:16.360
year olds right now. So it's not appropriate for her

514
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:19.960
to talk to her twelve year old child about it,

515
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:22.360
but it's appropriate for her to fuck a twelve year

516
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.920
old child. Sorry, that's the way I feel about it.

517
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:31.239
I think her mind is twisted, so many words for that.

518
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:35.000
So Laturno, who at this time is forty three, in

519
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.880
filial who is twenty one at this point, they get married,

520
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:44.159
y'all in Washington in a ceremony at a winery. Wedding

521
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:48.519
registries were set up at Williams Sonoma, Macy's and Tiffany's,

522
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:52.880
and their daughters were flower girls. Exclusive access to the

523
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:56.639
wedding was given to the television show Entertainment Tonight, and

524
00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:01.000
photographs were released through other media outlets. Laturner said she

525
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:04.719
planned to have another child and returned to the teaching profession,

526
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:08.079
indicating that by law she was permitted to teach at

527
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:13.000
private schools and community colleges. Thank god she never followed

528
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.800
through with that. In two thousand and six, in an

529
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:19.639
interview with NBC News, Laturner conceded she knew it would

530
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:22.480
be wrong to let the relationship go any further, but

531
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:25.119
she said as soon as the school year ended, she

532
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.559
and Billy did cross that line. She said that it

533
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:31.400
didn't cross my mind at the time that having sex

534
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:34.360
with the Lyle would be a crime. If that don't

535
00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:36.400
tell you how psycho this lady is, I don't know

536
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:39.360
what would. In a later interview, she stated if someone

537
00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:41.840
had told me, if anyone had told me that there's

538
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:44.880
a specific law that says this is a crime, I

539
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:48.599
didn't know. I've said this over and over again. Had

540
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:52.639
I known, if anyone knows my personality, just the idea

541
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:57.840
would count as a crime. Again, how psycho is this lady?

542
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.679
By two thousand and nine, if Lyle was dejaying in

543
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:06.239
a Seattle club and Laturno hosted a quote hot for

544
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:10.440
teacher night at the club, you gotta be kidding me.

545
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:15.440
Laturno was the MC as well at that club. It's

546
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.719
on what married life right? Happily? Ever, after all that,

547
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:23.880
well not exactly or maybe so listen to this really

548
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:29.000
strange thing that occurred with these two. On May ninth

549
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:32.280
of twenty seventeen, after I missed twelve years of marriage,

550
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:37.079
Flile files for separation from Laturno, who at this point

551
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.320
is fifty five. He's thirty three. Filile said the couple

552
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:43.440
had no children who are still dependents, and neither he

553
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:46.480
nor Mary Kay owned any property, and he said he's

554
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:49.960
unaware of any debts. Philio asks the court to divide

555
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:54.199
any property they had fairly as the court decides, and

556
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.159
he said spousal's support is not needed. He did not

557
00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:02.440
want an order of protection. Even so, Filile tells a reporter,

558
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:05.840
it's not necessarily what you think. Everything's fine between us,

559
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.360
all the rumors you hear between us, it's fine. Rather,

560
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:12.320
he was trying to start a business and he wanted

561
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:17.320
to disentangle himself from potentially messing up the background check.

562
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.280
Filile explained, when you want to get licensed, they do

563
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.480
background checks on both parties. If I decide to be

564
00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:26.000
a part of it, I'd have to be licensed and

565
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.880
I have to be vetted. And so does a spout.

566
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:32.000
She has a past and she has a history, which

567
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:38.280
actually makes sense. And later he did withdraw that filing.

568
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:42.360
So as of April of twenty eighteen, Philile was working

569
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:46.000
at a home improvement store and as a professional DJ

570
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:50.679
and his stage name was DJ Headline, while Laturno was

571
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:54.639
working as a legal assistant, and they were still married

572
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:58.239
and still seemingly happy in note I use the word

573
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:03.800
seemingly because in August of twenty nineteen, Filile and Laturno

574
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:10.000
to finalize legal separation orders. Filile then moves to California,

575
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:15.360
and an unnamed source told People magazine that Filile sees

576
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:19.920
things more clearly now and realizes that this wasn't a

577
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:25.519
healthy relationship from the start. Then, on July six of

578
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:30.960
twenty twenty, Mary Kay Liturno dies in her home in

579
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:35.559
Des Moines, Washington, from colon cancer. She was fifty eight

580
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:41.039
years old. Laturno's oldest son, Steve Liturno Junior, said in

581
00:39:41.079 --> 00:39:44.000
a statement, we are deeply saddened to share the very

582
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:47.800
difficult news that our beloved Mary passed away peacefully on

583
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:51.199
July sixth of twenty twenty after a six month battle.

584
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:56.480
Since being diagnosed with stage four cancer, Mary fought tiresly

585
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:59.599
against this terrible disease. It is in that spirit that

586
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.719
we have for privacy and respect, for our desire to

587
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:05.159
focus on the road ahead for all of us who

588
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:09.239
make up Mary's collective family. Filile and his family were

589
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:13.400
also at her side. Despite their separation. A joint statement

590
00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:17.280
was made by the Filile and Laturno families to commemorate

591
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.519
her passing. In her will, Laturno left much of her

592
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:27.400
estate to Fuilau, So a very sad ending to what

593
00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:36.320
was obviously a very very sick woman mentally. I don't

594
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:41.239
even know what to say beyond that, but I do

595
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:44.840
have something else for you today, So don't go anywhere.

596
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:50.000
I'm about to play you a full interview, one of

597
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:55.920
the few interviews that Mary kay Laturno and Billy Filile

598
00:40:56.280 --> 00:41:04.159
gave together. This was to sixty minutes Australia. Really interesting.

599
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:07.719
This was done in twenty eighteen, so get ready for

600
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:11.440
that full interview. I do want to thank everyone for lessening.

601
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.960
Check out the Patreon once again. You're not going to

602
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:18.599
hear my clothes after the interview. The interview will just end.

603
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:19.880
And here's that.

604
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:24.159
Even now, some two decades later, you can't help but ask.

605
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:25.079
What was she thinking?

606
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:28.679
What was it that drove school teacher Mary Kayla Tourno

607
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.760
to begin a secret affair with her twelve year old student,

608
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:37.079
Villi Falou. Mary said it was true love, but no

609
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:40.360
one else saw it that way. She was jailed twice

610
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.960
and even had two children to the underage Villi, but

611
00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:49.920
somehow the relationship endured remarkably, they're still together today. Here's

612
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.519
Matt Dorian.

613
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:54.519
What about these as parents? You've got some good parents here.

614
00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:56.679
I'm trying to work out whether the looks come from

615
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.920
and whether you've got mum's looks or dad's looks, or

616
00:41:59.000 --> 00:41:59.920
it's a mixture of both.

617
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:01.639
I think it's a good mixture of both.

618
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:05.440
For a brief time, this was the most talked about

619
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:10.159
family on Earth. Mary kay La Tourno made world news

620
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:14.599
when she seduced her twelve year old student, Villy Flout.

621
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:19.440
Yeah, a thirty five year old teacher who had sex

622
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:23.320
for the thirteen year old sex Greater fathoms to eating Mary.

623
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.679
Kay Laturna the last person you would suspect of being

624
00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:32.199
a molester of children. Villy is now her husband. Then

625
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:35.920
there's their children, Audrey born while their mother was on

626
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:40.400
trial and Georgia born in prison. Did you kind of

627
00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:44.719
understand what all the funeral or the interest was about

628
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:46.280
at the time. I think so.

629
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:53.480
I think I understand about it. It was wrong.

630
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:56.079
And I am sorry.

631
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:00.559
As we'll see tonight, this is a family still with

632
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.639
the truth of what happened more than two decades ago,

633
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:08.199
and who was to blame. No matter you know what

634
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:12.119
you might call this relationship. It certainly hasn't been fleeting.

635
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:14.760
How long have you you both been married for now?

636
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:18.559
I think this year was thirteen, Yeah, thirteen and then

637
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.480
two thousand by six, okay, yeah.

638
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:27.119
About thirteen years, I mean plus yeah, that's quite incredible.

639
00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:29.000
Has that time gone quickly? Slowly?

640
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:35.199
Time kind of just really flows by? Actually, and you're

641
00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:36.199
busy every day.

642
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.960
So well, you're busy. You're busy, very very busy being parents.

643
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:45.360
I think those years were so when you're moving through

644
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:50.199
the school years, those went really fast. It seems I'm like,

645
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:54.400
oh my goodness, weren't they just six and eight?

646
00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:56.880
Just whoa?

647
00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:01.320
And I tell that's what I tell parents, like it's

648
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:06.960
going to go fast, and like every day matters. And

649
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:14.280
because we have friends with children that were once our

650
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:19.239
children's age and grade school and middle school, high school,

651
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:25.639
and now both of our daughters are graduated recently, and

652
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.519
it's it just especially high school, it seemed to go

653
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:35.480
by very quickly. It's there was so many involvements, their activities,

654
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:39.199
and it just you're just like staying on it, staying

655
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:42.679
on it, uniforms for this and going from this activity

656
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.719
to this activity, and here comes the homecomings, the proms,

657
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.400
and the it was just it just keeps going in fast, fast, fast,

658
00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:55.599
and all of a sudden what all of a sudden

659
00:44:55.639 --> 00:44:57.199
they they're gone.

660
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:00.960
No, no, Well it's it's funny you should mention that

661
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:03.239
you're you're on the cusp of a big life event

662
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:07.519
as parents. Your youngest is preparing to do the unthinkable

663
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:09.880
and move out. Really, how are you coping?

664
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:14.000
You know, it's natural, I guess, you know, I hear

665
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:15.519
like a lot of people, a lot of a lot

666
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:18.760
of girls who turn eighteen, they kind of just leave

667
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:20.639
the nest and then if you're a guy, you kind

668
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:24.280
of stay in a little longer. Oh, I think the opposite,

669
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:25.079
that's what I heard.

670
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:32.239
Oh, I think I think the opposite. But yeah, our

671
00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:35.000
daughter was a college bound and now she has a

672
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:38.079
different idea and so we have to be patient with that.

673
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:45.039
So it's she was always our youngest. We're going to

674
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:45.840
be patient with that.

675
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:53.079
Sixteen sixteen, Yeah, yeah, I mean it's guys are guys

676
00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:54.679
are a little bit different. A lot of the guys,

677
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:56.559
I know, they hang in longer because they get the

678
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:59.679
free rent, you know, but guys are very basic like that.

679
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:03.000
See a female, I see where you're I see where

680
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.320
you're both coming from, all right.

681
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:07.239
And girls they're kind of they're a little more independent,

682
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:09.000
you know. I mean a lot of the girls that

683
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:11.480
I knew growing up, they were out of their house

684
00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:12.320
when they were eighteen.

685
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:15.400
Well, give me a sense, Philly, if you could of

686
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.320
your your upbringing, your childhood. You come from fittis Ia,

687
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:20.199
a very big family.

688
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:24.199
Yeah. Uh yeah. My dad was married five times, and

689
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:29.719
there's a total of eighteen of us siblings. We didn't

690
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:33.599
grow up altogether. I grew up with my four full

691
00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:38.360
blooded siblings. I eventually met the rest of them went

692
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:40.199
growing up. I still have more to meet.

693
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:44.719
But yeah, that's uh, yeah, that's a that's an up

694
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:47.000
that's sort of a crazy upbringing, isn't it. I Mean

695
00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:49.239
it's a there's a lot going on at Christmas or

696
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:50.840
around the family dinner table.

697
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:51.920
It's just stay simple.

698
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:52.440
I mean, I.

699
00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:58.440
Not everyone gets a Christmas gift, but yeah, just uh

700
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:00.000
just a close relative.

701
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:03.000
Yeah yeah, Mary, what about you? What about your your

702
00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:06.079
background and and your upbringing? Tell me a bit about

703
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:07.119
your family, all right?

704
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:24.920
So, uh, my father was married once. Just saying, so, oh,

705
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:25.599
where are we going?

706
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:28.840
Tell me a bit about your father.

707
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:33.760
I have a mother who my mother is, my father's

708
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:42.119
passed away, and I have six siblings, five five still living.

709
00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:44.840
Was it a was it a Catholic upbringing for you married?

710
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:45.239
Yes?

711
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:48.519
And what is what? What did that involve? How kind

712
00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:51.440
of devout? How traditional was your family in that regard?

713
00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:59.679
For me, it's just a beautiful heritage. That's how I

714
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:06.039
do think of it. I just personally, I when I've

715
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:13.159
traveled internationally, I just something about going into a Catholic church.

716
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:19.159
It's just they're all the same in the sacredness feeling,

717
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:25.519
and it just it's just a I know you're asking

718
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:28.280
what was that like, like as if as if there's

719
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:33.199
some uniqueness to being raised Catholic, But I guess I'm

720
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:36.320
just taking present. How does it feel to have been

721
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:37.760
raised Catholic?

722
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:38.599
I just.

723
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:48.039
It's I think it's a I just think of it historically,

724
00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:51.480
because it's not just that I was raised Catholic. It's

725
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.519
both of my parents are from a Catholic family, and

726
00:48:54.679 --> 00:48:57.000
back and back and back and back. So that's why

727
00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:01.480
I say a heritage, and so it when I go

728
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:04.320
into a Catholic church, doesn't matter where it is, it's

729
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:07.840
it just feels really good. It's like a it's like

730
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:12.000
this flooding of my heritage. And I won't say that.

731
00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:19.000
I am entirely if someone put a certain doctrine in

732
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:21.960
front of me that was Catholic, said what do you

733
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.039
think of this? It doesn't mean a lot to me.

734
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:31.760
I'm more I shouldn't say it like that. I don't

735
00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:37.599
like I wouldn't say because that's like rules, the doctrine

736
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:41.920
of the Catholic Church. And I'm more am appreciative of

737
00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:46.280
the roots roots roots of the Catholic Church, which are

738
00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:51.039
is really just the core of Christianity. People think there's

739
00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:56.599
a difference, really tellscussion. No, I'm just saying no, there

740
00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:02.760
isn't you know was it's no.

741
00:50:03.320 --> 00:50:03.599
I just.

742
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:09.719
I'm not sure what your question was. But I think

743
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:13.239
that you think that I or I think you're asking

744
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:19.159
about certain if there was a uniqueness, If I think

745
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:20.679
there was uniqueness.

746
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:22.000
Let me ask you. Let me ask you about you too.

747
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:24.559
When did you first meet Billy.

748
00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:33.960
Meet Well, I met his brothers and older sister before

749
00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:38.119
I met him. He's so there are four in his family.

750
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:39.599
And then.

751
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:44.559
The first time I was familiar with the name Billy

752
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:51.639
full of ouh Gosh, I don't know, nineteen eighty, nineteen

753
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:56.119
eighty nine, eighty eight, Not sure?

754
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.480
Was that when you were here? His year two teacher,

755
00:50:59.519 --> 00:50:59.880
that's one of.

756
00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:03.960
My students back then. I hardly remember. Of course I

757
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:08.079
remember his name, so and I knew the Philla family

758
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:15.840
because I knew the other siblings so before, and then

759
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:22.039
here came a unique one. So well, they're all quite

760
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:27.679
unique as any family, I think, or all the siblings

761
00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:28.800
are unique.

762
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:31.119
This will this will be a test of your memory, Billy.

763
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:34.559
I mean you would have been eight or sorry back then.

764
00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:36.079
Do you have any memory of those years?

765
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:41.039
He's kind of like not really like good memories, but

766
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:46.000
some of them are just random, just pretty much random stuff.

767
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:47.119
What sort of memories?

768
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:50.559
Like I remember hiding in the in the closet in

769
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:53.039
the in the classroom, and then me and my friends

770
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:54.920
we used to be in there hiding classroom.

771
00:51:55.639 --> 00:51:57.599
Why don't you say what you were doing hiding in

772
00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:00.599
the class Now, what did you tell me you were doing?

773
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:03.199
That's it's weird to talk about.

774
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:06.519
Right, which only makes me want to know about it

775
00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:08.920
even more. Go on, Mary, what was he doing in

776
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:09.400
the closet?

777
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:14.800
Oh? Just what you said to me? It's like, yeah,

778
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:17.480
We're hid in the closet and we'd hope you'd walk

779
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:20.280
past so we could look under your skirt. I'm like,

780
00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:23.360
what the heck? I mean, who's like tell us like

781
00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:27.400
years later, like is that what you told it?

782
00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:28.239
Is what you told me?

783
00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:31.280
Mm hmm, you feel better.

784
00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:33.119
No, I'm just.

785
00:52:33.239 --> 00:52:36.119
Saying donated pools for mediation here.

786
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:40.280
No, I'm just saying it was like, what does he remember?

787
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:44.039
That's what he told me he remembered. I'm like, wow, Wow,

788
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:45.199
I had no idea.

789
00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:50.280
There's also like two three girls in there that liked me,

790
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.440
and I used to get like these weird messages from them,

791
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:59.920
like little notes. Really yeah, yeah, weird you can.

792
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:01.000
I thought it was so aware.

793
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:02.360
I had no idea.

794
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:08.039
There were closet. The closet spanned in It spanned the

795
00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:11.360
whole side of this so it's not like the just

796
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:15.159
for the visual. And there were these big giant like

797
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:20.679
from bottom to top of the doors. All right.

798
00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:26.440
What attracted you to teaching initially, Mary, I.

799
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:29.960
Just found myself. I was originally in the school of

800
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:34.559
music in college and always had the music background, and

801
00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:43.239
I found myself music and music and dance. I found

802
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:47.360
myself in teaching positions whether it be coaching or choreography,

803
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:56.039
and I just I once I got to college, and

804
00:53:56.320 --> 00:53:59.119
as much as I enjoyed it and I believed that

805
00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:05.000
I was, I knew I was good in the arts

806
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:10.199
in that area, and I so enjoyed it, and I

807
00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:13.239
thought I might be join the what's called Kids of

808
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:17.079
the Kingdom, which was part of Disneyland. They traveled and

809
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:24.480
they did dance and singing music. So I thought, oh, yeah,

810
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:28.800
that maybe we're all start right and so far as

811
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:32.360
what would someone do with the background in music and

812
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:34.559
that kind of interest. But when I got to college,

813
00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:35.760
I found that I was good.

814
00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:37.719
Is this music or teaching?

815
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.239
Are you talking about I'm talking about music? And this

816
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:43.159
is how I well, this is what happened. I found

817
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:50.079
I was an a at teaching because I even the

818
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.519
professors at college, they said, oh, well, you take this

819
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:57.400
group over here. Did they recognized and even prior to that,

820
00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:02.440
prior to getting to colleg I was coaching this and choreography,

821
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:07.039
and I was I realized that, you know what, I'm

822
00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:10.400
a bee in music and dance. I'm a bee good.

823
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:15.079
That's good. Nothing wrong with the bee. And but I

824
00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:18.639
was an a at teaching and everybody recognized it, and

825
00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:22.039
I've soon recognized for myself that I was really an a.

826
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:23.800
What made you and I at teaching?

827
00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:31.960
I think just being tuned into a lot of good

828
00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:39.880
listening and being aware, and how about just really making

829
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:46.480
clear what the objective is, uh, and setting the goals,

830
00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:55.280
adjusting them along the way as the learning or the

831
00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:00.320
gaps are showing, knowing how to adjust things and bringing

832
00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:04.840
in the resources. And it just was natural, very natural.

833
00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:08.119
Can you remember back Villy to being a student. Was

834
00:56:08.199 --> 00:56:09.519
Mary a good teacher?

835
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:13.320
I remember all the kids really tuned into it. She

836
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:20.079
was saying, and yeah, I don't really know what to

837
00:56:20.119 --> 00:56:21.800
look for and what a good teacher, what a good

838
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:24.000
bad teacher is? For me, A good teacher would keep

839
00:56:24.039 --> 00:56:27.280
my attention, and a bad teacher would be someone who talks,

840
00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:31.440
you know where it's like kind of monotone, where it's

841
00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:35.000
kind of she just kind of fall asleep while teacher's talking.

842
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.239
We just happened a lot of times in middle schools.

843
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:40.079
Well, it's fit to say Mary had your attention. I

844
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:43.320
believe what what This is a tough question. What what

845
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:47.239
what attracted? What first attracted you to Mary? Can you remember?

846
00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:48.440
Uh?

847
00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:57.800
She was pretty and uh, yeah, I think that was it.

848
00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:07.360
And then and then yeah, and then I don't know,

849
00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:09.840
I'm kind of like that she drew a little bit.

850
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:13.639
She taught some art stuff and I thought that was

851
00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:17.199
kind of cool. And then I think, like in sixth grade,

852
00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:21.320
we kind of connected on certain things, kind of like

853
00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:25.880
saw common views on stuff life and similar interests.

854
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:32.719
Yeah, So, Mary, when did you first realize I have

855
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:34.039
feelings for a student?

856
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:45.880
Probably? Well, first of all, he wasn't my student, when

857
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:55.800
any any feelings, so, which I think is really important here.

858
00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:01.920
It was very important for the here in the United

859
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:04.199
States and the state of Washington. It was really important

860
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:09.679
for it to be put out, and I guess politically

861
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:15.039
and a lot of legislation, it was important to portray

862
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:17.719
it as if it was a student teacher relationship, but

863
00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:21.199
it really wasn't. So even though once upon a time

864
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:24.559
even you ask well, when did you first Well, I

865
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:27.760
feel kind of awkward answering that because it's sort of

866
00:58:27.920 --> 00:58:31.280
wanting to connect it to this was a student teacher relationship,

867
00:58:32.239 --> 00:58:39.760
which is really big in law and doesn't matter coach, teacher, supervisory.

868
00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:45.679
It was after so I am saying that I was

869
00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:50.920
taking college classes for my continuing education. For my certification

870
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:53.559
in teaching, you have to have it every five years.

871
00:58:53.599 --> 00:59:01.440
You got to update so or else they pull your certification.

872
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:04.199
So and a lot the same in a lot of

873
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:10.239
industry professions you have to do continuing education. I had classes.

874
00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:16.039
He was also in a class at the same college,

875
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:21.199
so for summer. So yes, it was summer school, but

876
00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:24.199
it was school. It was a class in the summer.

877
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:26.960
Let me ask you, Billy in a different way, at

878
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:30.440
what point did this morph I guess from teacher and

879
00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:34.360
former student to boyfriend and girlfriend.

880
00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:42.320
Just a friendship really, And then during summertime, you know,

881
00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:45.079
things just got a little closer, and you know, there

882
00:59:45.159 --> 00:59:50.760
was some there's some I don't even know how to

883
00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:53.880
say it, dramatic stuff going on.

884
00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:54.360
Drama.

885
00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:58.079
Really, there was plenty of dramatic stuff going on.

886
00:59:58.639 --> 00:59:59.719
There was a lot of things I kind of just

887
00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:03.760
le to what was kind of connecting on a deeper level.

888
01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:09.920
And then it got even more wild crazy once the

889
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:13.559
police found out and her husband found out.

890
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:21.760
And I think we at least we spoke to each

891
01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:25.000
other as if in that summer we felt like boy

892
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:29.719
it was boyfriend girlfriend And that's why I guess that's

893
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:33.360
what I'm there wasn't a teachers. Well, when you consider

894
01:00:33.400 --> 01:00:36.239
we were in the same college. We both took an

895
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:39.360
art class at the same college.

896
01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:39.360
And.

897
01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:44.599
I think it was it felt really great. I'm just

898
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.679
saying it felt great because we were so close as

899
01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:50.960
we were close as friends, and then just to not

900
01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:55.760
be his teacher in any capacity and to be friends

901
01:00:56.000 --> 01:01:03.400
and to be working on the same projects and it

902
01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:06.280
is on the same level, and it just felt great.

903
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:10.480
And just saying, I don't know what that what was

904
01:01:11.119 --> 01:01:14.239
dramatic going on, but I mean inside of us, probably, Yeah,

905
01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:18.760
when things when we realized I don't know, you called

906
01:01:18.800 --> 01:01:23.400
me your girlfriend, Yeah, he did.

907
01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:28.239
It's it's best not to argue your village. This is

908
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:28.960
my experience.

909
01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:30.519
Yeah.

910
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:35.280
Yeah, when Mary did really make it clear to you

911
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:39.400
that he was interested in you physically sexually. I guess

912
01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:44.840
can you remember that moment? You must remember that moment.

913
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:50.840
I just remember, Uh, yes, there was one point and

914
01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:54.119
I said, put that away. I just met the idea

915
01:01:55.519 --> 01:02:02.559
and it yeah, here's a there's a story about that.

916
01:02:02.679 --> 01:02:04.440
I don't know how much time we have, but how

917
01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:06.679
did that idea manifest? Philly? What did you say?

918
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:10.559
I don't want to talk about it.

919
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:18.519
Oh, I'm just there was I just I appreciate, appreciated

920
01:02:18.559 --> 01:02:23.079
this the wrong wrong word, But there was no there

921
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:25.679
was a moment where he said that he was He

922
01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:28.559
did say he was in love with me, and I was.

923
01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:30.760
It scared me, scared me.

924
01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:35.239
And that was before anything physical between you both. He

925
01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:36.119
said he was in love.

926
01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:43.199
Oh yeah, yeah, like I don't know, yeah, like weeks

927
01:02:43.239 --> 01:02:43.599
a month.

928
01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:49.760
M that feel like love to you back then, Philly, Yeah,

929
01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:55.440
it means for anyone, Yeah, that's what you would Uh,

930
01:02:56.760 --> 01:02:58.719
I don't know for me, Yeah, I mean for anybody

931
01:02:59.119 --> 01:03:01.519
first time figure out what love is for the first time,

932
01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:02.840
you know, that's all you know.

933
01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:06.280
So for what I know that it was back then, Yeah,

934
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:09.039
I would say that that was real love.

935
01:03:09.639 --> 01:03:11.480
I'm trying to take a couple of steps back to

936
01:03:11.559 --> 01:03:14.679
when you first made that brave decision to say something

937
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:18.599
to Mary. Was it initially on a dare or you know,

938
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:19.320
in front of your.

939
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:24.159
Mites, Yeah, it was. Actually it started off that way

940
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:28.199
with trying to get a get closer to her. But

941
01:03:28.320 --> 01:03:32.079
that was the reason of which I knew nothing about. Yeah,

942
01:03:34.119 --> 01:03:38.199
so yeah, so that's how her and I started talking.

943
01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:41.880
It was because there was a bet and then you

944
01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:44.280
know later down the road in the relationship kind of

945
01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:50.039
just the bet just was it even cra haven't even

946
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:51.079
crossed my mind anymore.

947
01:03:51.639 --> 01:03:59.280
So wow, So one thing, and I think this is

948
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:07.079
is an answer to your question. It was. And I

949
01:04:07.199 --> 01:04:15.760
still think about this moment and still because I remember, well,

950
01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:18.559
I'm just saying, every time I think about this moment.

951
01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:25.239
You remember when you came to me to write you

952
01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:30.440
said wait, And this was when it was. It was

953
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:36.960
a very very end of the school year. And I

954
01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:39.280
don't even think school was really I think it was

955
01:04:39.639 --> 01:04:42.559
basically done. Things were closing up. But I was on

956
01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:44.639
my way out the door and he said, wait a minute,

957
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:49.800
and he said, how old do you think you're going

958
01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:53.119
to be when you die? And I said, I was

959
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:56.199
really excited because I'm going to talk about my grandmother, right,

960
01:04:56.800 --> 01:04:59.360
And I know, I just said, my mom's going to

961
01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:01.840
live till hunt, but my grandmother, which is not even

962
01:05:01.880 --> 01:05:04.199
her mother, my father's mother, she really did live to

963
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:07.800
one hundred and three. And I so I was really

964
01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:11.119
excited because he had never asked about my grandmother and

965
01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:15.119
or any you know, thing maybe beyond my parents. And

966
01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:17.400
I said, I said, well, I'm probably I'm going to

967
01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:19.840
at least be a hundred because my grandmother right now

968
01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:25.840
is a hundred and I'm most like her. She and

969
01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:28.559
I started talking about how she still teaches piano, and

970
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:31.280
she was a hundred, right, And I was really excited

971
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:36.639
inside that he was interested in I don't know, I

972
01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:38.920
was excited to talk about my grandmother. And he cut

973
01:05:38.960 --> 01:05:41.280
me off and he said, well, if you're going to

974
01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:43.760
be one hundred, then I'm going to be eighty because

975
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:46.000
I'm not living another day in this world without you.

976
01:05:47.159 --> 01:05:51.760
And I just was like, I'm like, look, it's a

977
01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:54.599
pretty romantic thing for a teenage boy to say.

978
01:05:56.119 --> 01:05:58.599
I said, you just said that to me. But at

979
01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:01.199
the time we were just close. I was close close,

980
01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:04.920
and I was a little tiny bit of me was like,

981
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:07.159
you just cut me up. I was talking about my grandmother.

982
01:06:08.039 --> 01:06:10.280
And I mean, if someone asked you to talk about

983
01:06:10.280 --> 01:06:13.800
your grandmother, asked you to, well, I guess you didn't

984
01:06:13.800 --> 01:06:17.000
really ask me. I thought I thought it was an

985
01:06:17.039 --> 01:06:20.039
opening to talk about my grandmother, which I was proud

986
01:06:20.079 --> 01:06:20.760
to talk about.

987
01:06:21.559 --> 01:06:24.000
If you extrapolate the age forward like that, it makes

988
01:06:24.039 --> 01:06:26.760
it sound better, right. But you know, back then thirty

989
01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:29.239
four and thirteen, did you have a sense that what

990
01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:30.320
you were doing wasn't right.

991
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:35.440
Hearing him say, hearing him.

992
01:06:35.559 --> 01:06:36.960
Putting the grandmother aside of.

993
01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:40.960
Just the age eighty eighty and one hundred, well.

994
01:06:41.320 --> 01:06:43.519
What about back then, I was thirty four and thirteen.

995
01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:46.840
I was just thinking about eighty and one hundred, if

996
01:06:46.880 --> 01:06:47.760
you want to know the truth.

997
01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:51.559
No, a part of you was thinking about A part

998
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.679
of you must have been thinking matter you. By all accounts,

999
01:06:54.760 --> 01:06:57.880
everyone in Des Moines says you're one of the best

1000
01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:02.360
teachers going around, a fierce into You must have known

1001
01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:06.000
such a smart woman that this something wasn't right about

1002
01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:08.039
what was going on at that age.

1003
01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:16.039
Well, just know that there wasn't any any thought or

1004
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:20.239
any idea that something was going to happen. So no,

1005
01:07:20.440 --> 01:07:25.760
there wasn't a thought about. There wasn't thought about we

1006
01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:28.159
were just even when he said eighty and one hundred,

1007
01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:30.760
I was just thinking, you're so right. I don't want

1008
01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:34.039
to live another day without you either. No, it wasn't even.

1009
01:07:35.199 --> 01:07:37.679
It wasn't a thought of, oh, and we're going to

1010
01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:41.280
have children and there's There wasn't a thought like that.

1011
01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:45.360
It was that type of a closeness that you're so right,

1012
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:48.159
I don't want to live another day without you either.

1013
01:07:48.599 --> 01:07:51.960
What's fascinating about your relationship is that it has endured,

1014
01:07:52.280 --> 01:07:54.679
you know, that separates it from anything else that might

1015
01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:58.000
go in the what people would call teacher student space.

1016
01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:01.239
But I think what I'm trying to get at is

1017
01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:03.800
the sense of back at the time, at its inception,

1018
01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:08.199
before this had evolved into something like love, wasn't this

1019
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:11.960
just a physical relationship between a woman and a man?

1020
01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:14.440
Or I should say at that point a little boy.

1021
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:17.920
Well, you shouldn't say a little boy. He was thirteen,

1022
01:08:18.279 --> 01:08:20.000
I know, but you shouldn't say a little boy.

1023
01:08:20.239 --> 01:08:21.239
Well, a teenage foe.

1024
01:08:22.399 --> 01:08:25.239
Well, you know some people are incarcerated in this date

1025
01:08:25.279 --> 01:08:28.800
at age thirteen and they're treated as an adult and

1026
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:31.640
they're not called little boys, and they get a life sentence.

1027
01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:36.119
So when you put it in that perspective, so it's like,

1028
01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:38.079
how which angle do you want to come.

1029
01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:40.840
At I want to come at it from that.

1030
01:08:41.960 --> 01:08:43.479
I'll tell you, well, I do you want to know

1031
01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:45.000
are you hearing what I'm saying.

1032
01:08:45.079 --> 01:08:46.600
I'm hearing what you're saying. I want to come at

1033
01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:48.600
it from this angle. As a thirty four year old woman,

1034
01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:52.880
did you have any philosophical problems? Moral problems with entertaining

1035
01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:55.520
the idea of a relationship with a thirteen year old boy.

1036
01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:59.000
Well, I wasn't entertaining the idea, and that's my point.

1037
01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:01.439
But but you clearly were.

1038
01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:07.520
Eventually, eventually we both.

1039
01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:12.479
And did you have any pause at the time thinking

1040
01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:15.600
Mary style away from him? This isn't right.

1041
01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:21.119
What I thought is he doesn't understand that I have

1042
01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:25.479
four children and I have responsibilities. That's what That's the

1043
01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:28.560
only thing. And you have to keep in mind that

1044
01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:36.159
now it's twenty years ago, and sure in the last

1045
01:09:36.239 --> 01:09:39.159
ten years, all across the world, the laws have change

1046
01:09:39.199 --> 01:09:44.399
and everybody and you'll even see ever since Mary Latourno,

1047
01:09:46.039 --> 01:09:48.520
ever since. But see that was twenty years ago. Now

1048
01:09:48.640 --> 01:09:53.279
everybody has their eyes open and is aware. Surely, I

1049
01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:58.159
hope every teacher, and forget about even the teacher part.

1050
01:09:58.520 --> 01:10:05.359
I would hope that every adult that's a female, regardless

1051
01:10:05.560 --> 01:10:12.079
of being a teacher, would no, after my situation, pay

1052
01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:16.239
attention because there's law. There are laws. You might think

1053
01:10:16.680 --> 01:10:21.199
when you're in a world we were close, and no,

1054
01:10:21.359 --> 01:10:24.800
we weren't thinking about those things. No, I wasn't. There

1055
01:10:24.880 --> 01:10:29.279
were no laws back that would that anybody. There were

1056
01:10:29.319 --> 01:10:31.199
no situations.

1057
01:10:32.680 --> 01:10:33.560
Laws married.

1058
01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:39.880
For males, and if you look historically, it was a

1059
01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:44.880
male only and then the laws changed when the when equality,

1060
01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:49.600
let's go mat on this, you want to because I'm ready, sure, okay.

1061
01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:54.680
So the equal Rights amendments from state to state here

1062
01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:57.359
in the United States, and it even happened over in Australia,

1063
01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:01.760
New Zealand and what's called the Equal Rights Amendment. And

1064
01:11:02.000 --> 01:11:06.239
what they did is they knew they gender neutralled the laws.

1065
01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:08.960
Prior to that, it was male only. It was a

1066
01:11:09.079 --> 01:11:13.279
male only statutory rape. So when did somebody get on

1067
01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:17.720
the news and say, hello world, or Hello New Zealand, Hello,

1068
01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:19.840
or I don't know how you do your states over there,

1069
01:11:20.359 --> 01:11:25.760
but if they're in states, nobody got on. Nobody did

1070
01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:28.720
a press release here in the state of Washington or

1071
01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:32.119
in California where I was from, and said, we have

1072
01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:37.760
now changed the laws. It is no longer gender it

1073
01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:41.600
is no longer gender specific a male only. When I

1074
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:46.000
grew up, sure as a teenager, I knew that, oh

1075
01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:51.039
if that male. The males knew because it was well

1076
01:11:51.119 --> 01:11:54.760
known thing because of because a lot of dads out

1077
01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:58.399
there were saying stay away from stay away from the daughters.

1078
01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:01.600
Here in this out because I'll get a shotgun out

1079
01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:04.600
because you're older, and I can charge, I can go

1080
01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:07.039
to the police, and it would be called statutory rape.

1081
01:12:07.399 --> 01:12:10.399
I don't care if you love my daughter, you're twenty six,

1082
01:12:10.520 --> 01:12:16.399
you're thirty, whatever you are, and my daughter's only sixteen, thirteen, fifteen, whatever.

1083
01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:20.960
It was a very well known statutory rape was it

1084
01:12:21.079 --> 01:12:23.000
was very well known. It didn't matter if there was love,

1085
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:26.600
It didn't matter if it was consensual. And that word

1086
01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:32.119
is there, statutory meaning, it doesn't matter if it's if

1087
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:36.800
there's consent male only, and it's not until and if

1088
01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:45.159
you can look all across any kind of scholastic reading

1089
01:12:45.239 --> 01:12:48.279
on this that goes historically, and my name will even

1090
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:54.079
be there, not until my situation in the law, the

1091
01:12:54.199 --> 01:12:56.760
conflict in the law did.

1092
01:12:57.800 --> 01:13:00.479
So are you saying that you saying that was fusion

1093
01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:03.800
about the law at that time, or that you didn't understand.

1094
01:13:03.479 --> 01:13:05.600
Nobody knew it, who knew it, who knew it?

1095
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:08.159
But you knew, you know, Mary, Come on, you knew

1096
01:13:08.319 --> 01:13:10.600
that it was not right, even if it wasn't black

1097
01:13:10.640 --> 01:13:12.960
and right, if you didn't have the statue of true

1098
01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:13.840
papers there.

1099
01:13:13.720 --> 01:13:19.119
Morally you knew morally morally, is that that's what you're.

1100
01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:23.560
Saying morally, No, I'm saying morally and legally, not the

1101
01:13:23.640 --> 01:13:27.680
legally parton No, But you were such a smart person.

1102
01:13:28.359 --> 01:13:31.079
One I'd never even been in a courtroom if I

1103
01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:34.399
am a smart person, but I am like hyper focused

1104
01:13:34.439 --> 01:13:35.239
in my areas.

1105
01:13:35.399 --> 01:13:37.760
So you're saying, Matt, I'm a smart person. I'm revered

1106
01:13:37.760 --> 01:13:39.800
as a teacher. But I just didn't know it wasn't

1107
01:13:39.880 --> 01:13:41.319
right as a thirty four year old to be with

1108
01:13:41.399 --> 01:13:42.199
a thirteen year old.

1109
01:13:42.439 --> 01:13:46.279
Sorry, not in a criminal sense, but I thought, first

1110
01:13:46.319 --> 01:13:48.520
of all, you just said teacher.

1111
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:52.000
Again, and well you were his teacher in second once

1112
01:13:52.119 --> 01:13:52.439
upon a.

1113
01:13:52.479 --> 01:13:57.119
Time once Yeah, okay, you keep going back to that.

1114
01:13:57.279 --> 01:13:59.239
Not at this I'm not saying it happened. Then you're

1115
01:13:59.239 --> 01:14:01.840
saying at one point you were his teacher. Look, I'm

1116
01:14:01.880 --> 01:14:03.680
not trying to get into semantics over that. I'm just

1117
01:14:03.760 --> 01:14:06.520
trying to accept. In the end, you stood up in

1118
01:14:06.680 --> 01:14:11.640
court and pleaded guilty to two counts, out to some elements,

1119
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:13.199
two counts of child ripe.

1120
01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:16.640
Well, the only thing that that title is is a deterrent,

1121
01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:20.680
and I'm glad it's there as a deterrent. Now I

1122
01:14:20.840 --> 01:14:23.119
understand the laws in general, but I.

1123
01:14:23.119 --> 01:14:24.920
Don't want to talk about the logistics of the law.

1124
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:25.199
Mary.

1125
01:14:25.279 --> 01:14:26.800
I mean, you stood up and said, yes, I did it,

1126
01:14:27.319 --> 01:14:28.199
I did something wrong.

1127
01:14:29.640 --> 01:14:34.399
No, I fit the elements that equal guilty to the elements,

1128
01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:37.000
and we don't have to if we're if we really

1129
01:14:37.079 --> 01:14:38.960
want to, if you really want to go into like

1130
01:14:39.079 --> 01:14:41.960
the let's see, where do we want to go on?

1131
01:14:42.119 --> 01:14:43.479
I just want to see what I'm trying to get

1132
01:14:43.479 --> 01:14:45.359
a sense of, whether you think you did anything wrong

1133
01:14:46.039 --> 01:14:48.279
at the time, at the time, and now.

1134
01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:52.920
Okay, I want you to also respect one thing that

1135
01:14:53.119 --> 01:14:53.680
we're married.

1136
01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:56.239
This is I appreciate its okay, So.

1137
01:14:56.439 --> 01:15:00.279
When you and we're not like between us, we know

1138
01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:06.000
what happened at the time and it's entirely not appropriate

1139
01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:10.399
to talk about because we're not we know we know.

1140
01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:13.960
That, isn't it? Isn't it a fair question? I'll ask

1141
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:15.880
you to really know, because I don't want to disrespect

1142
01:15:15.920 --> 01:15:18.159
you guys. I will say, is it a fair question

1143
01:15:18.319 --> 01:15:20.319
to ask if? Is it a fair question to ask

1144
01:15:20.359 --> 01:15:24.399
you both whether you think at the time, Mary, you

1145
01:15:24.479 --> 01:15:26.319
were doing anything wrong, if.

1146
01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:30.479
You knew the personal situation with us, and on that side,

1147
01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:35.239
I wanted everything to go away. I am like a

1148
01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:38.640
big peacemaker, and I thought, you know what, We're not

1149
01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:41.279
going to have this go into a trial, because that's

1150
01:15:41.399 --> 01:15:46.239
drama that brings in my father, it brings in his family.

1151
01:15:46.840 --> 01:15:52.279
And no matter what personally happened at between us, that

1152
01:15:54.039 --> 01:15:59.560
as far as those moments that changed everything, at those

1153
01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:06.720
in the those moments, we know, we know. And the

1154
01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:11.920
fact that I decided that I, as the adult, was

1155
01:16:12.600 --> 01:16:16.000
going to make this go away and we would all

1156
01:16:16.079 --> 01:16:20.680
get on with our lives, and that I would get

1157
01:16:20.720 --> 01:16:25.560
back and not even get back resume like I've got

1158
01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:30.119
some responsibilities to some children and a marriage to resolve,

1159
01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:34.680
and for the best of everybody, I said, I'm going

1160
01:16:34.760 --> 01:16:36.960
to do this. I'm going to stand up and I'm

1161
01:16:37.000 --> 01:16:41.720
gonna this is going to just the least amount of drama.

1162
01:16:43.439 --> 01:16:45.119
Mary, I kind except that this goes to the heart

1163
01:16:45.159 --> 01:16:46.760
of the whole story for me. When you say the

1164
01:16:46.840 --> 01:16:49.439
best for everybody, what I'm trying to ask is whether

1165
01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:52.239
it was the best for Villy at the time. I mean,

1166
01:16:52.279 --> 01:16:53.720
he was a thirteen year old boy, had a big

1167
01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:56.560
decision to make. Was it the best for everybody Villy.

1168
01:16:58.239 --> 01:16:58.880
To continue it.

1169
01:16:59.439 --> 01:17:02.600
You're saying you made a big adult choice, Mary, And

1170
01:17:02.680 --> 01:17:04.840
I'm not trying to turn this into an adversarial interview.

1171
01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:06.960
I'm trying to say, when you say you made a

1172
01:17:07.039 --> 01:17:09.239
big adult choice and made the decision that was best

1173
01:17:09.319 --> 01:17:13.359
for everyone, was it best for Billy? Oh?

1174
01:17:13.640 --> 01:17:17.399
You mean to show this? Okay, so sure if you

1175
01:17:17.399 --> 01:17:18.119
would appreciate it.

1176
01:17:18.119 --> 01:17:20.199
I just want to let Billy speak. Can you answer

1177
01:17:20.239 --> 01:17:21.479
that question, Billy, let's.

1178
01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:24.399
Clarify the question though you should I have said not

1179
01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:26.439
guilty and brought him to trial?

1180
01:17:26.560 --> 01:17:28.800
No? No, Should you have pursued the relationship at all?

1181
01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:30.119
Should you have walked away?

1182
01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:32.760
You're presuming I preserve that both of you.

1183
01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:33.960
It's a question to both of you.

1184
01:17:34.720 --> 01:17:38.239
You were the adult Mary, Okay, but that doesn't mean

1185
01:17:38.319 --> 01:17:39.520
the personality mix.

1186
01:17:40.039 --> 01:17:42.760
Okay. So here's here's a as a sinct way of

1187
01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:45.680
saying it. And I appreciate this as a difficult discussion.

1188
01:17:47.279 --> 01:17:49.920
I think it's kind of disrespectful that we're married and you're.

1189
01:17:49.800 --> 01:17:52.000
Going there, no, no, no, because it's the inception. I

1190
01:17:52.079 --> 01:17:53.520
just want to get that. I just want to deal

1191
01:17:53.600 --> 01:17:56.319
with what happened at the time. I appreciate that you're

1192
01:17:56.359 --> 01:17:59.359
married and this is an enduring relationship. I understand that

1193
01:17:59.479 --> 01:18:02.359
I'm not saying saying it was wrong. I'm asking you

1194
01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:07.560
to answer the critics. Okay at the time, Really I'm

1195
01:18:07.560 --> 01:18:10.760
going to You're thirteen years old, You're transported back. You

1196
01:18:10.840 --> 01:18:14.840
can make the decision all over again to pursue this relationship.

1197
01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:17.560
Do you do it? But I do it after knowing

1198
01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:21.560
my kids now, I think there would be a lot

1199
01:18:21.600 --> 01:18:27.560
of things that I've probably would have changed. I mean,

1200
01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:30.600
I've looked at it. I spent a lot of time

1201
01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:33.640
thinking about it, like if I was to pursue it,

1202
01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:35.960
which way would have what would have happened? What if?

1203
01:18:36.880 --> 01:18:42.279
And I really don't know, you know, I can't. There

1204
01:18:42.359 --> 01:18:49.800
was a lot of complicity of emotions going on with

1205
01:18:50.560 --> 01:18:53.479
the both of us, her and her personal life and

1206
01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:56.960
my personal life, and I think a lot of those

1207
01:18:57.039 --> 01:19:01.840
elements kind of brought us together to where we are today.

1208
01:19:02.520 --> 01:19:07.960
Was it right? Was it wrong? I don't know. All

1209
01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:12.840
I know is that is that it happened, and everything

1210
01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:15.680
that did happen that we do speak of, that we

1211
01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:19.399
felt within our hearts for each other was real. But

1212
01:19:19.720 --> 01:19:24.960
in the legal system and for the average normal I

1213
01:19:25.479 --> 01:19:33.000
you know, it is obviously wrong for many reasons. And I,

1214
01:19:33.680 --> 01:19:37.520
you know, I respect the law and the reasons for

1215
01:19:37.680 --> 01:19:38.439
those laws.

1216
01:19:38.760 --> 01:19:38.840
And.

1217
01:19:41.079 --> 01:19:46.319
From personal experience and from seeing other people go through it,

1218
01:19:49.239 --> 01:19:56.520
I yeah, I just it is what it is.

1219
01:19:57.560 --> 01:19:59.720
Would you said, this is this, this story you will

1220
01:19:59.720 --> 01:20:03.640
story is almost an exception to the law because you

1221
01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:07.479
fell in love. That that that that makes it all

1222
01:20:07.600 --> 01:20:08.119
all okay?

1223
01:20:08.319 --> 01:20:11.119
I would say it was. It's okay, But I think

1224
01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:15.760
a lot of it could have been handled a different way,

1225
01:20:16.520 --> 01:20:21.920
could have been less stressful on on the both both

1226
01:20:21.960 --> 01:20:26.479
of us. You know, they when when they found out

1227
01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:29.000
about it. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's the This

1228
01:20:29.119 --> 01:20:32.439
type of stuff isn't new and it's gone back ages,

1229
01:20:32.680 --> 01:20:32.880
you know.

1230
01:20:33.159 --> 01:20:33.239
But.

1231
01:20:35.119 --> 01:20:39.560
Our story was the first one to be publicized.

1232
01:20:40.520 --> 01:20:46.359
And I can't imagine how tough it was to live

1233
01:20:46.439 --> 01:20:49.119
through that for the both of you. The media storm,

1234
01:20:50.039 --> 01:20:54.239
the court case. What what was it like back then

1235
01:20:54.319 --> 01:20:55.600
in the eye of the storm.

1236
01:20:56.479 --> 01:21:03.000
Mm hmm, the media in the court at that time.

1237
01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:05.600
I just all I was thinking about through that entire

1238
01:21:05.720 --> 01:21:08.439
time was how she was doing and was she okay

1239
01:21:09.279 --> 01:21:12.520
and would she be able to get back to her family,

1240
01:21:12.600 --> 01:21:21.079
her kids. I never really thought about myself. I was

1241
01:21:21.239 --> 01:21:25.239
more worried about what she was going to be doing

1242
01:21:25.439 --> 01:21:30.840
you know, or how she was doing, and I kind

1243
01:21:30.880 --> 01:21:33.000
of felt like maybe they should have gave us a

1244
01:21:33.119 --> 01:21:35.960
chance to talk things out or at least work things out.

1245
01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:39.760
They kind of just cut the contact, you know, between us,

1246
01:21:40.239 --> 01:21:44.199
between us, and I just think that that wasn't right.

1247
01:21:44.279 --> 01:21:46.960
I think they should have at least maybe a supervised

1248
01:21:47.119 --> 01:21:51.880
visits or something to at least talk things out or

1249
01:21:52.159 --> 01:21:55.000
figure out what's gonna go, you know. I mean, considering

1250
01:21:55.079 --> 01:22:00.479
that she had given birth to my child, and it

1251
01:22:00.640 --> 01:22:04.720
was just it was it was a real struggle. I mean,

1252
01:22:04.840 --> 01:22:07.039
there was a lot of things I didn't understand at

1253
01:22:07.079 --> 01:22:12.520
that age. I didn't know anything about the law. I

1254
01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:15.960
didn't know anything about raising a family. I didn't know

1255
01:22:16.039 --> 01:22:19.840
anything about. All I knew was that I loved her.

1256
01:22:20.520 --> 01:22:25.000
That was That was it. I didn't know anything. Like

1257
01:22:25.079 --> 01:22:28.760
I said before, it's it's basically like anybody who's figuring

1258
01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:31.560
out love for the first time, they the first taste

1259
01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:33.359
of it, you know, and that was that was me,

1260
01:22:34.520 --> 01:22:40.039
and you know, and then I just think it. I

1261
01:22:40.159 --> 01:22:42.279
think a lot of cases just kind of get put

1262
01:22:42.319 --> 01:22:46.640
into categories, and you know, they see the highlight of it,

1263
01:22:46.720 --> 01:22:50.359
but they don't really look at the individuals a little

1264
01:22:50.399 --> 01:22:53.520
more deeply. I think what happened with us was that

1265
01:22:54.279 --> 01:22:57.159
you know this just this is huge. You know, she's

1266
01:22:57.239 --> 01:23:01.600
a beautiful sixth grade teacher, her background, you know her,

1267
01:23:01.800 --> 01:23:04.880
where she comes from, where I come from. They figured, oh,

1268
01:23:04.960 --> 01:23:08.560
this is a really great story, and they and they

1269
01:23:08.680 --> 01:23:15.279
just ran with it. Was anybody caring for her feelings

1270
01:23:15.399 --> 01:23:20.239
or my feelings? No, nobody really cared about that. And

1271
01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:25.640
I think, and I'm not I'm not trying to play

1272
01:23:25.680 --> 01:23:27.760
the victim here about any of it. I just think

1273
01:23:27.880 --> 01:23:31.279
that it should have. There's a lot of things that

1274
01:23:31.439 --> 01:23:35.199
could have happened, but they didn't. There's a lot of

1275
01:23:35.279 --> 01:23:38.760
help that we both could have gotten that didn't happen.

1276
01:23:40.680 --> 01:23:42.920
Have you had any Have you at any point really

1277
01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:47.720
felt like a victim? People like to call you a victim.

1278
01:23:48.119 --> 01:23:51.079
Well, well, growing up, I've always had people telling me

1279
01:23:51.399 --> 01:23:54.960
that's not really how I feel. You know that, Oh

1280
01:23:55.119 --> 01:23:56.960
she made you feel that way. So I was always

1281
01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:01.560
getting that. So now that I'm older and I've grown

1282
01:24:01.640 --> 01:24:03.800
up and I've been through so many experiences, I know

1283
01:24:03.960 --> 01:24:05.880
my feelings. I know who I am. I know who

1284
01:24:05.920 --> 01:24:08.680
I am as a person. I know and I love

1285
01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:14.319
every little thing about me, and I wouldn't change who

1286
01:24:14.399 --> 01:24:16.560
I am and all my experiences that I've come through

1287
01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:20.239
in life that brought me here. I mean, it's it's

1288
01:24:20.319 --> 01:24:28.600
been a ride, for sure, and and I think there

1289
01:24:28.840 --> 01:24:31.199
is always going to be critics, you know, out there

1290
01:24:31.279 --> 01:24:33.479
a lot of people that just wouldn't understand. I mean

1291
01:24:33.600 --> 01:24:36.840
I've I, for one, can't you know, being thirty five

1292
01:24:36.960 --> 01:24:39.720
and looking back like switching the roles. I mean, I

1293
01:24:39.840 --> 01:24:43.920
for one couldn't do that when I look at it.

1294
01:24:43.960 --> 01:24:46.199
I mean, after even raising my own kids and looking

1295
01:24:46.239 --> 01:24:47.760
back at it, I was like, I, I for sure

1296
01:24:47.800 --> 01:24:48.239
couldn't do it.

1297
01:24:48.319 --> 01:24:49.439
What do you mean by that?

1298
01:24:49.760 --> 01:24:51.960
I mean just from knowing everything that I know now,

1299
01:24:52.920 --> 01:24:56.039
I mean I couldn't. I mean even just even without

1300
01:24:56.159 --> 01:25:00.520
knowing and seeing a thirteen year old you know, now

1301
01:25:01.039 --> 01:25:03.760
you know me being thirty five, I couldn't. I couldn't, like,

1302
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:06.520
look at a girl that young romantically.

1303
01:25:08.359 --> 01:25:09.079
Is that hard to hear?

1304
01:25:09.159 --> 01:25:13.520
Mary? Oh, I don't. I don't relate that to our situation.

1305
01:25:14.119 --> 01:25:16.079
But it's the exact same situation in reverse.

1306
01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:22.960
No, it isn't. That's no, things that are not, things

1307
01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:26.239
that are not actually the same should not be treated

1308
01:25:26.319 --> 01:25:29.319
as if they are. But that's oh, that's from the

1309
01:25:29.439 --> 01:25:30.680
United States Supreme Court.

1310
01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:34.000
By the way, I mean it's you know what, I mean,

1311
01:25:34.439 --> 01:25:34.760
guess what.

1312
01:25:34.920 --> 01:25:38.239
It doesn't guess what. It doesn't cross my mind, and

1313
01:25:38.359 --> 01:25:41.720
it never did, so I would never.

1314
01:25:42.079 --> 01:25:43.119
What do you mean it never did?

1315
01:25:43.520 --> 01:25:48.199
I mean it did when I didn't pursue it. But stop, Matt,

1316
01:25:48.359 --> 01:25:50.239
please please.

1317
01:25:49.960 --> 01:25:52.800
I mean her defense. I mean the entire time when.

1318
01:25:54.279 --> 01:25:59.119
I never pursued it, I never thought about it, and

1319
01:25:59.279 --> 01:26:05.199
it's ever crossed my mind in any of course. It's like,

1320
01:26:05.880 --> 01:26:09.119
I'm not saying there aren't. The reason there's a deterrent

1321
01:26:09.239 --> 01:26:12.600
title like that is because maybe there are people that

1322
01:26:13.199 --> 01:26:15.399
a male that might even consider it.

1323
01:26:15.439 --> 01:26:18.319
I would say, there there are people out there, there

1324
01:26:18.439 --> 01:26:20.960
might be, and there there there are definitely, I mean

1325
01:26:21.039 --> 01:26:22.479
for us good reason.

1326
01:26:22.560 --> 01:26:25.039
There's the law is there with a.

1327
01:26:25.199 --> 01:26:28.239
Guy that's my age, dad finds a thirteen year old

1328
01:26:28.239 --> 01:26:31.840
attractive and that I don't know, just for me, I

1329
01:26:31.880 --> 01:26:34.920
couldn't do it, I know, and he doesn't.

1330
01:26:35.159 --> 01:26:39.159
We're saying we neither of us think that way, and

1331
01:26:39.439 --> 01:26:42.039
we're both happy that there's such a law of this.

1332
01:26:42.560 --> 01:26:44.399
You see what I'm saying. I'm not I'm not trying

1333
01:26:44.439 --> 01:26:46.439
to cause an argument here when you were thirty four.

1334
01:26:46.560 --> 01:26:49.359
You did think that way, and you did do exactly that.

1335
01:26:49.960 --> 01:26:52.960
I was pursued and I didn't think about it. I

1336
01:26:53.119 --> 01:26:55.399
did not think about it. Didn't.

1337
01:26:55.880 --> 01:26:58.000
But that's not an excuse for any crime, is it for?

1338
01:26:58.159 --> 01:27:00.079
And I'm not saying this is you can't just go.

1339
01:27:00.159 --> 01:27:01.520
I didn't think about it, so you later?

1340
01:27:01.840 --> 01:27:07.640
Sorry, No, morally, I thought about, you know what, I'm

1341
01:27:07.720 --> 01:27:13.640
not even technically single yet and he's calling me his girlfriend,

1342
01:27:14.399 --> 01:27:16.199
and I thought that was you know, I was like,

1343
01:27:16.279 --> 01:27:18.760
this is not right. He needs to let me get

1344
01:27:18.840 --> 01:27:22.680
on with my life and I'll see you later. I

1345
01:27:22.760 --> 01:27:25.680
don't I'm not saying that in a cold way. It

1346
01:27:25.840 --> 01:27:31.319
was breaking my heart, breaking my heart to know. There

1347
01:27:31.359 --> 01:27:34.479
were two things I wanted him. I wanted him to

1348
01:27:34.560 --> 01:27:38.239
move on in his life and experience everything he needed to,

1349
01:27:38.479 --> 01:27:42.800
all of his dying pledges of love. And I'm like,

1350
01:27:42.880 --> 01:27:44.920
you got to go, you got to finish school, you

1351
01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:49.880
got to do this. He was accepted into an art

1352
01:27:51.319 --> 01:27:54.199
one of the big art academies here already back then,

1353
01:27:55.159 --> 01:28:00.840
And it was I wanted him to go experience life.

1354
01:28:01.640 --> 01:28:06.399
And I wanted to raise my children. I didn't expect

1355
01:28:06.439 --> 01:28:10.880
to get pregnant where we were at the time, whatever,

1356
01:28:11.359 --> 01:28:16.079
I am entirely in support of the laws that are there.

1357
01:28:16.359 --> 01:28:19.119
So you're saying there's not you're saying it's night and day,

1358
01:28:19.199 --> 01:28:21.840
for example, between what you did and the laws that

1359
01:28:21.880 --> 01:28:25.680
would surround pedophilia that I'm.

1360
01:28:25.840 --> 01:28:33.520
Actually was entirely evaluated, probably three four times. And there's nothing,

1361
01:28:33.640 --> 01:28:37.119
not a single trade of anything inside of me that

1362
01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:42.600
that's pretty loud and clear in any document that's a child.

1363
01:28:44.840 --> 01:28:47.479
Yeah, and balance where some like somebody has like this,

1364
01:28:48.279 --> 01:28:50.920
like their attraction, what they're attracted to, it.

1365
01:28:52.319 --> 01:28:54.159
To pre p pubscent.

1366
01:28:54.960 --> 01:28:59.479
No, well a child under well, a child a thirteen

1367
01:28:59.560 --> 01:29:00.920
year old would qualified.

1368
01:29:00.520 --> 01:29:01.760
He wasn't pretty pubescent.

1369
01:29:02.840 --> 01:29:04.000
Does that write the difference?

1370
01:29:04.000 --> 01:29:04.079
Oh?

1371
01:29:05.239 --> 01:29:10.279
Okay, First, let's go back. How many thirteen year olds

1372
01:29:10.520 --> 01:29:14.239
are having sex with thirteen year olds? Plenty across the world,

1373
01:29:14.359 --> 01:29:15.399
millions and billions.

1374
01:29:15.520 --> 01:29:16.920
Not a lot of them are having sex with thirty

1375
01:29:16.960 --> 01:29:17.479
four year old?

1376
01:29:17.560 --> 01:29:18.800
Yes, but are they having sex?

1377
01:29:19.319 --> 01:29:20.039
It's not relevant?

1378
01:29:20.199 --> 01:29:23.600
Is that? It is absolutely relevant? Are they having sex?

1379
01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:25.399
I didn't see it. Are they having sex?

1380
01:29:26.199 --> 01:29:27.000
Are they having sex?

1381
01:29:27.119 --> 01:29:29.439
I'm certain that they are, But how does that relevant

1382
01:29:29.479 --> 01:29:30.079
to this case?

1383
01:29:30.520 --> 01:29:37.000
They're not children, they're developed, they're not children having sex

1384
01:29:37.079 --> 01:29:43.880
with children, they're teenagers. They're doing actually really and elastically

1385
01:29:44.000 --> 01:29:47.560
and lit and across the board with the even in legislation,

1386
01:29:47.760 --> 01:29:51.720
they recognize that thirteen year olds are going to have sex.

1387
01:29:51.800 --> 01:29:53.920
So should we rip up the laws and say it's

1388
01:29:53.960 --> 01:29:56.199
a free for old thirteen year olds with whoever they like.

1389
01:29:57.960 --> 01:30:03.399
No, Because there are cases, and it's called strict liability,

1390
01:30:03.479 --> 01:30:08.920
there are cases where there could be abuse. There could

1391
01:30:09.039 --> 01:30:11.960
be so you have to have a law. It acts

1392
01:30:12.000 --> 01:30:17.600
as a deterrent because there are people who might pursue

1393
01:30:19.119 --> 01:30:23.560
and abuse a situation. But when thirteen year olds are

1394
01:30:23.600 --> 01:30:27.560
with fifteen year olds, with seventeen year olds, with those really,

1395
01:30:27.800 --> 01:30:32.840
when they're with it's happening. We all know, everybody knows

1396
01:30:32.920 --> 01:30:38.640
across the world. It's happening teenagers. It's natural. There's no

1397
01:30:38.800 --> 01:30:42.600
laws that are saying teenagers can't do that. They're going

1398
01:30:42.720 --> 01:30:50.319
to So there. You don't say, oh, there's oh that

1399
01:30:52.119 --> 01:30:55.920
pedophilia with pedophilia, that doesn't even make sense. It doesn't

1400
01:30:56.000 --> 01:30:59.840
make sense. There are people that have disorders. The laws

1401
01:30:59.880 --> 01:31:02.800
have to be there, they absolutely have to be there.

1402
01:31:03.840 --> 01:31:09.359
They were gravely Yeah, there are people out there. I mean,

1403
01:31:09.359 --> 01:31:13.000
I've watched a documentary on pedophilia, or just because I

1404
01:31:13.119 --> 01:31:15.439
was curious because I, you know, being in my situation,

1405
01:31:15.560 --> 01:31:17.239
I was really curious about.

1406
01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:18.800
It, as in whether you might have been a victim

1407
01:31:18.840 --> 01:31:19.479
of pedophilia.

1408
01:31:19.760 --> 01:31:22.079
Yeah, so I was like curious to watch it and

1409
01:31:22.640 --> 01:31:27.880
just listen to what some of these actual people that

1410
01:31:28.000 --> 01:31:29.800
do have it. But they were talking about and and

1411
01:31:29.840 --> 01:31:34.920
then these scientists were talking about like their brain on

1412
01:31:35.119 --> 01:31:41.279
how their attraction is almost like somebody with I don't

1413
01:31:41.319 --> 01:31:42.560
know how do you can call them. You wouldn't call

1414
01:31:42.640 --> 01:31:46.520
them retards or mentally challenged. I don't know what do

1415
01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:50.119
you call them, but they would they're not fully grown,

1416
01:31:50.199 --> 01:31:53.479
like that part of their brain doesn't fully grow, but

1417
01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:57.600
everything else is growing, just not that part that they're

1418
01:31:57.600 --> 01:32:00.520
attracted to, like they could they could be a best friend.

1419
01:32:01.119 --> 01:32:03.640
And in their mind, they're probably trying to figure out

1420
01:32:03.680 --> 01:32:08.800
why am I attracted to younger younger age range than

1421
01:32:08.960 --> 01:32:11.960
my own. Some of them are just kind of it's

1422
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:13.479
like a disability.

1423
01:32:13.800 --> 01:32:16.359
So what you would say, I can see you bristling

1424
01:32:16.439 --> 01:32:19.560
at any mention of pedophilia in this discussion, Mary, I

1425
01:32:19.680 --> 01:32:21.479
understand that are you saying. What you were saying is

1426
01:32:21.479 --> 01:32:23.560
that this is a unique cast. You've never been attracted

1427
01:32:23.600 --> 01:32:25.560
to anyone else, under right, Okay, let's.

1428
01:32:25.439 --> 01:32:29.439
Just I don't want I want, I hope this is uh.

1429
01:32:29.560 --> 01:32:31.600
I want this to be useful to your audience, and

1430
01:32:31.680 --> 01:32:36.159
I don't think it should be confused and overglossing that

1431
01:32:36.760 --> 01:32:43.600
that term is specific, like as Billie was talking. It

1432
01:32:43.760 --> 01:32:49.920
has nothing to do with me one, because he wasn't

1433
01:32:51.640 --> 01:32:54.399
pre pubescent. He wasn't a child. And we have to

1434
01:32:54.920 --> 01:32:57.680
we have to respect the intelligence of your audience.

1435
01:32:57.960 --> 01:32:59.520
But you've got to I've got to jump in on

1436
01:32:59.600 --> 01:33:02.439
there behind because when you say he wasn't a child,

1437
01:33:02.479 --> 01:33:03.199
he was thirteen.

1438
01:33:03.960 --> 01:33:06.159
Okay, so we go back to thirteen year olds or

1439
01:33:06.239 --> 01:33:07.640
having sex with thirteen year olds.

1440
01:33:07.880 --> 01:33:09.880
No, I just when you say he wasn't a child,

1441
01:33:09.960 --> 01:33:11.600
that's the only part I grappling.

1442
01:33:11.640 --> 01:33:14.840
Okay, if the two thirteen year old teenagers are having sex,

1443
01:33:14.880 --> 01:33:17.039
do you want to say there's two children having sex?

1444
01:33:17.239 --> 01:33:18.119
Is that what you would say?

1445
01:33:18.279 --> 01:33:18.479
Sure?

1446
01:33:18.600 --> 01:33:20.279
But then I would say it's infinitely worse if that

1447
01:33:20.399 --> 01:33:22.199
thirteen year old has six with an adult.

1448
01:33:22.399 --> 01:33:24.960
It is true, but we're not let's not like stray

1449
01:33:25.039 --> 01:33:29.000
away from I want to entirely respect the intelligence of

1450
01:33:29.119 --> 01:33:33.279
your audience. I am offended by the whole line of

1451
01:33:33.399 --> 01:33:38.319
questioning because I don't I think on an intellectual level,

1452
01:33:39.840 --> 01:33:43.239
I don't think you're giving even to ask the question.

1453
01:33:43.520 --> 01:33:47.720
I think you're misleading the audience to even and all

1454
01:33:47.800 --> 01:33:52.560
you all, y'all just look up the definition and then say,

1455
01:33:52.680 --> 01:33:54.520
did he even ask the right question? So?

1456
01:33:54.680 --> 01:33:57.159
Why did you spend seven years in prison? Why did

1457
01:33:57.199 --> 01:33:58.880
you spend why were you sent to prison?

1458
01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:02.760
Talk for four hours and I would be happy, happy

1459
01:34:03.039 --> 01:34:08.399
to start. Any attorney out there, any legal authority will

1460
01:34:08.399 --> 01:34:10.680
be right with me on this. It's called a strict

1461
01:34:11.079 --> 01:34:17.279
liability law. If sexual intercourse happened, no matter if it was,

1462
01:34:17.680 --> 01:34:21.000
no matter if he was the aggressor, no matter if

1463
01:34:21.039 --> 01:34:25.640
he initiated it. And being the younger I am the adult,

1464
01:34:26.000 --> 01:34:31.720
sexual intercourse happened in our state. There are three elements

1465
01:34:31.800 --> 01:34:40.479
sexual intercourse happened, the age difference, and third element, we

1466
01:34:40.600 --> 01:34:43.319
were not married. What does that say right there? And

1467
01:34:43.520 --> 01:34:46.920
we were not married? That means if we had been

1468
01:34:47.159 --> 01:34:51.840
in theory, if we had been married, nope, crime. I'm

1469
01:34:51.960 --> 01:34:53.159
just saying, but.

1470
01:34:53.239 --> 01:34:55.720
There's a reason that thirteen year olds don't marry thirty

1471
01:34:55.720 --> 01:34:57.119
four year olds. Is just not right?

1472
01:34:57.960 --> 01:34:59.520
Oh well, it happened in Virginia.

1473
01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:02.239
Well legally so, should it be a free for all

1474
01:35:02.279 --> 01:35:02.960
across the stone?

1475
01:35:03.039 --> 01:35:08.159
No, but it is, it's it's it's not entirely I'm

1476
01:35:08.239 --> 01:35:11.640
just saying it's a strict liability, but you keep going

1477
01:35:11.720 --> 01:35:14.840
back to that part, and I want now, strict liability

1478
01:35:14.960 --> 01:35:18.720
law means if it happened. It means if same thing

1479
01:35:18.800 --> 01:35:24.680
as when an oil company accident for whatever reason, spills

1480
01:35:24.720 --> 01:35:28.840
oil into a into a river. Strict liability doesn't matter.

1481
01:35:28.920 --> 01:35:32.600
If it was negligence, doesn't matter how it happened. It happened.

1482
01:35:33.239 --> 01:35:37.760
What I'm confused about, it just happened. What I'm confused about, Mary,

1483
01:35:37.920 --> 01:35:40.279
is whether or not you, in your mind you think

1484
01:35:40.399 --> 01:35:42.560
you did anything wrong. Because you're throwing laws at me

1485
01:35:42.760 --> 01:35:45.520
and consent and age and give in your audience.

1486
01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:50.800
You're throwing in these bandwigon terms, and I think it's

1487
01:35:50.880 --> 01:35:51.720
confusing them.

1488
01:35:52.359 --> 01:35:53.960
Okay, can I put all can I put all those

1489
01:35:54.079 --> 01:35:56.760
terms to one side? Did you do anything wrong?

1490
01:35:57.680 --> 01:36:01.159
I've always said, you know it was Should I have

1491
01:36:01.279 --> 01:36:06.640
run from him? I did at one point say say

1492
01:36:06.920 --> 01:36:12.920
you have to go. I did. I cried harder than

1493
01:36:15.039 --> 01:36:17.760
and I didn't know I was pregnant. But I did

1494
01:36:17.840 --> 01:36:20.439
say you have to go. Do you understand you have

1495
01:36:20.640 --> 01:36:25.319
to go? It was very hard.

1496
01:36:25.760 --> 01:36:27.359
I think legally it was wrong.

1497
01:36:28.159 --> 01:36:28.640
Well we know.

1498
01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:34.800
Legally it was wrongly emotionally, we now know that emotionally

1499
01:36:35.000 --> 01:36:37.479
the connection that we felt for each other, I don't

1500
01:36:38.199 --> 01:36:39.720
your answer would be yes or no.

1501
01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:43.680
I'm going to be the same as you. I would

1502
01:36:43.760 --> 01:36:47.079
not take back anything. I'm going to say the same

1503
01:36:47.119 --> 01:36:51.880
as you. And I'm if I could, if I could

1504
01:36:52.960 --> 01:36:58.279
do something different. One I don't live. I don't live

1505
01:36:58.399 --> 01:37:02.439
a day like that. I do my best every single day,

1506
01:37:03.119 --> 01:37:05.079
and I can look back and say, Mary, did you

1507
01:37:05.199 --> 01:37:07.640
do your best every single day? And I'll say yes.

1508
01:37:08.399 --> 01:37:11.159
When you send a day, when you send your children off.

1509
01:37:11.279 --> 01:37:13.319
Now in the mornings you say I love you, do

1510
01:37:13.479 --> 01:37:15.119
the right thing, and do the right thing. Did you

1511
01:37:15.199 --> 01:37:15.840
do the right thing?

1512
01:37:17.239 --> 01:37:22.439
You know what. I'm not going to continue with you

1513
01:37:22.920 --> 01:37:25.840
trying to have me answer that question. I told you

1514
01:37:26.399 --> 01:37:29.720
I did my best every single day, and I live

1515
01:37:29.800 --> 01:37:33.239
my life that way. And I did. And in that situation,

1516
01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:40.479
it doesn't even matter. I did my best, and even

1517
01:37:40.800 --> 01:37:44.880
that I feel, even at the moment, do I wish

1518
01:37:44.920 --> 01:37:47.760
I had a different attorney. That's the only thing I

1519
01:37:47.880 --> 01:37:50.079
can tell you at this point, did I should I

1520
01:37:50.239 --> 01:37:54.880
have had a different attorney? And I say yes, But

1521
01:37:55.079 --> 01:37:58.920
did I at the time? Did I make the best choice?

1522
01:37:59.479 --> 01:38:02.760
He was my neighbor. Was he the best choice for

1523
01:38:02.840 --> 01:38:06.560
an attorney in this situation? Heck no.

1524
01:38:07.199 --> 01:38:09.439
Do you think you were wrongly imprisoned?

1525
01:38:09.600 --> 01:38:13.600
Absolutely? Why? Because you don't know our story but we do.

1526
01:38:14.439 --> 01:38:14.680
We do.

1527
01:38:14.920 --> 01:38:16.319
You should never have gone to Jill.

1528
01:38:17.600 --> 01:38:22.319
If you knew us, and if you knew our the

1529
01:38:22.479 --> 01:38:28.399
intimacies which guess what are nobody's business now they don't belong.

1530
01:38:29.720 --> 01:38:32.520
I wouldn't do that to our marriage. I wouldn't go

1531
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:34.720
back to that time and put it in a book.

1532
01:38:35.279 --> 01:38:38.239
I wouldn't have a movie that tried to the movie

1533
01:38:38.319 --> 01:38:40.439
out there that is not true. The book out there

1534
01:38:40.560 --> 01:38:43.159
is not true. Nothing that's ever.

1535
01:38:43.720 --> 01:38:45.920
It's like, but I've never heard you say that before?

1536
01:38:46.319 --> 01:38:48.319
Which part you shouldn't have gone to prison?

1537
01:38:50.000 --> 01:38:55.239
I did the best that I felt at the time,

1538
01:38:55.640 --> 01:38:58.880
the decision that I made, and I tried to take

1539
01:38:58.920 --> 01:39:02.399
the guilty pleap back. When I realized I was tricked

1540
01:39:02.439 --> 01:39:06.159
and coerced into it, I tried to take it back,

1541
01:39:07.039 --> 01:39:10.000
and it was a few weeks after and I have

1542
01:39:10.159 --> 01:39:15.319
said that before, and I think someone can watch some

1543
01:39:16.560 --> 01:39:21.000
Larry King Live. The problem is that the programs are edited.

1544
01:39:21.920 --> 01:39:25.079
Anything that we've done, they're edited people. It's like things

1545
01:39:25.119 --> 01:39:28.600
are taken out. Nobody wants to hear what really happened

1546
01:39:28.840 --> 01:39:32.439
with why did I take that guilty plea and the

1547
01:39:32.560 --> 01:39:36.079
parts about our intimate relationship and what happened back then.

1548
01:39:36.239 --> 01:39:37.960
Well, I'm not asking you about that. I think you'll

1549
01:39:37.960 --> 01:39:40.319
appreciate and I'm not prosecuting the case.

1550
01:39:42.079 --> 01:39:46.760
To say even to say, do you. I just know

1551
01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:49.399
that this whole thing that I just want to tie

1552
01:39:49.520 --> 01:39:52.920
up and just really wrap up the because I feel

1553
01:39:52.960 --> 01:39:59.279
like it was left loose. Is It's just absurd to

1554
01:39:59.399 --> 01:40:02.680
think that thirteen year olds are not having sex and

1555
01:40:02.760 --> 01:40:08.479
they're not pursuing it in a very deliberate, knowing way.

1556
01:40:08.840 --> 01:40:13.199
It's absurd. Okay, So I just want to say that

1557
01:40:13.359 --> 01:40:22.399
there are continual scholastic and legal dialogues, committees with psychologists,

1558
01:40:22.560 --> 01:40:30.119
with legal authorities. They still to this day are trying

1559
01:40:30.279 --> 01:40:39.239
to do their best combining just combining like all of

1560
01:40:39.399 --> 01:40:44.640
the layers of how do we manage this, we have

1561
01:40:44.760 --> 01:40:48.479
to manage teenage pregnancy, How can we best do this?

1562
01:40:48.560 --> 01:40:51.239
Should we put a strict liability lag call it, call

1563
01:40:51.319 --> 01:40:53.600
it this big glaring word. Put the word rape there

1564
01:40:53.720 --> 01:40:57.640
so that it at least takes some of the pressure.

1565
01:40:57.800 --> 01:41:00.640
How can we go after all of it because it's rampant?

1566
01:41:01.520 --> 01:41:04.039
How can we How can we look like what Philly said?

1567
01:41:04.600 --> 01:41:06.960
How can we look at the.

1568
01:41:08.439 --> 01:41:08.880
We can't.

1569
01:41:09.039 --> 01:41:12.239
The courts don't have time to look at well, what

1570
01:41:12.319 --> 01:41:14.680
were your feelings? What were your feelings? Well? Did you

1571
01:41:14.840 --> 01:41:17.960
do this? Or who did this? And the courts nobody

1572
01:41:18.039 --> 01:41:20.720
has the money for that strict liability?

1573
01:41:20.960 --> 01:41:24.159
Just no, accept it's not black and white. What about

1574
01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:27.039
your position, Billy? Should Mary have been sent to prison?

1575
01:41:29.279 --> 01:41:33.760
I don't think so. I mean that's from my point

1576
01:41:33.760 --> 01:41:36.640
of view, from being on the inside and knowing a

1577
01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:40.840
little more details about everything, you know, me living with

1578
01:41:42.119 --> 01:41:43.399
you know, knowing who she was.

1579
01:41:43.920 --> 01:41:47.600
How tough for those prison years for you? When I

1580
01:41:47.680 --> 01:41:49.680
mean you were you became a teenage father.

1581
01:41:50.319 --> 01:41:50.479
Oh.

1582
01:41:51.560 --> 01:41:54.239
I went in a really deep depression during that time

1583
01:41:56.079 --> 01:41:59.800
because of the no contact order and I was just

1584
01:42:00.000 --> 01:42:01.680
I just left by myself. So I went into a

1585
01:42:01.760 --> 01:42:08.119
really deep depression and I was doing I was getting

1586
01:42:08.159 --> 01:42:10.880
into trouble, doing a lot of things I wasn't supposed

1587
01:42:10.880 --> 01:42:13.920
to be doing doing things anything that I could possibly

1588
01:42:13.960 --> 01:42:18.720
get a laugh out of or have some sort of

1589
01:42:18.960 --> 01:42:22.239
happiness feeling. So I was doing it all because I

1590
01:42:22.399 --> 01:42:23.760
was really suffering inside.

1591
01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:24.640
How dark was it?

1592
01:42:24.760 --> 01:42:27.399
Fore, I say, it's pretty dark. There's a lot of

1593
01:42:27.439 --> 01:42:30.960
people i'd meet now that's you know, they recognized me,

1594
01:42:31.079 --> 01:42:33.000
and they would tell me these stories of how I

1595
01:42:33.239 --> 01:42:36.720
met them and what we did together, and I was like, wow, like,

1596
01:42:36.840 --> 01:42:40.600
I'm really sorry, I don't remember any of it. What

1597
01:42:40.840 --> 01:42:40.960
was it?

1598
01:42:41.119 --> 01:42:41.239
Was it?

1599
01:42:41.319 --> 01:42:43.720
The way of parenthood? Was a missing Mary while she

1600
01:42:43.920 --> 01:42:44.760
was behind bus.

1601
01:42:44.920 --> 01:42:47.199
I believe it was missing Mary. It wasn't just simple

1602
01:42:47.239 --> 01:42:49.720
as dis missing her. It was more of, you know,

1603
01:42:49.960 --> 01:42:52.119
not being able to talk anything through because I was

1604
01:42:52.159 --> 01:42:56.600
getting told by a lot of people what what I

1605
01:42:56.760 --> 01:43:00.399
was feeling, what my feelings were, and what she was

1606
01:43:00.520 --> 01:43:05.760
to me, and and uh and I just knew the truth,

1607
01:43:06.079 --> 01:43:09.680
you know, of what it was between us, and it

1608
01:43:09.800 --> 01:43:13.199
was just really hard to convince anyone, you know. I mean,

1609
01:43:13.239 --> 01:43:16.199
I'm not saying that, you know, really relationships like that

1610
01:43:16.359 --> 01:43:20.720
are okay, They're not. I would say, in our situation

1611
01:43:21.279 --> 01:43:25.439
and me, what happened between us, you know, shouldn't have

1612
01:43:25.479 --> 01:43:31.239
been anybody's business. It wasn't like she was out, you know,

1613
01:43:31.359 --> 01:43:34.560
looking out for young boys or anything like that. Yeah,

1614
01:43:34.600 --> 01:43:38.439
what happened between us was just it happened.

1615
01:43:38.840 --> 01:43:39.319
I mean it.

1616
01:43:40.840 --> 01:43:45.399
I don't I can't really say any negative or I

1617
01:43:45.439 --> 01:43:46.520
don't have any negative things.

1618
01:43:46.600 --> 01:43:48.319
It just is what it is. It just happened.

1619
01:43:48.880 --> 01:43:51.319
Yeah, I mean it's when I think about it, I

1620
01:43:51.359 --> 01:43:55.119
mean it's it's almost like just any any any relationship

1621
01:43:55.159 --> 01:43:57.960
that just happens. You know, you could be working with

1622
01:43:58.079 --> 01:44:01.800
somebody for years and then one day it's like, Wow,

1623
01:44:01.960 --> 01:44:04.399
I'm in love with this person, and then you guys

1624
01:44:04.479 --> 01:44:06.840
get together, and then people are sitting there questioning. So

1625
01:44:07.279 --> 01:44:10.119
you're questioning you, how did you guys fall in love?

1626
01:44:11.079 --> 01:44:15.159
But the only thing is with people or normal age

1627
01:44:15.199 --> 01:44:17.840
relationship like that, is that they don't get asked like

1628
01:44:18.319 --> 01:44:20.239
do you think it was wrong that you guys fell

1629
01:44:20.279 --> 01:44:23.920
in love or anything like that. I would, and but

1630
01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:26.079
for our situation, you know, that's one of the things

1631
01:44:26.159 --> 01:44:30.079
we suffer with in it is being asked these questions

1632
01:44:30.920 --> 01:44:35.000
and which has become our life. So for me, I

1633
01:44:35.199 --> 01:44:38.079
just know, I guess I just know how to answered

1634
01:44:38.159 --> 01:44:40.560
a little bit. I feel better answering it because back

1635
01:44:40.640 --> 01:44:44.560
then I didn't know how to answer it. But I

1636
01:44:44.640 --> 01:44:47.399
guess I don't know. I guess forever in my mind

1637
01:44:47.479 --> 01:44:49.640
it's always gonna make sense more than it will the

1638
01:44:49.760 --> 01:44:50.800
other person listening.

1639
01:44:51.319 --> 01:44:54.399
So do you both feel like your soul nights.

1640
01:44:56.680 --> 01:45:00.760
So mates can come? You know, anyone I really like that?

1641
01:45:02.720 --> 01:45:03.560
Are you still in love?

1642
01:45:05.600 --> 01:45:08.079
I would say yes, who.

1643
01:45:09.760 --> 01:45:09.880
Now?

1644
01:45:10.079 --> 01:45:15.640
I think that marriage is a it's a it's there's

1645
01:45:15.720 --> 01:45:20.239
a labor labor. I would say, anyone that's married will

1646
01:45:20.960 --> 01:45:25.600
uh no, there's a there's a labor of love. That

1647
01:45:25.840 --> 01:45:30.000
term is there for a reason. So in love is

1648
01:45:30.239 --> 01:45:35.760
a in love? I'm pretty uh, I'm pretty scientific.

1649
01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:38.720
I would say there's all sorry cutting me off, but

1650
01:45:39.359 --> 01:45:41.640
I would say, there's all kinds of different types of love,

1651
01:45:43.079 --> 01:45:48.079
you know. I mean there's people who I've seen marriages

1652
01:45:48.199 --> 01:45:51.840
where they make it work. They might have fallen out

1653
01:45:51.840 --> 01:45:55.319
of love somewhere in the relationship, but they somehow just

1654
01:45:55.439 --> 01:45:58.840
make it work for if it if it's for the kids,

1655
01:45:59.119 --> 01:46:02.760
or if it has to do with any personal issues

1656
01:46:02.800 --> 01:46:05.199
that they're having, they make it work. And sometimes they

1657
01:46:05.239 --> 01:46:09.600
fall back in love. Sometimes it doesn't work, and then

1658
01:46:09.640 --> 01:46:12.159
there's there's just all I don't know. I don't want

1659
01:46:12.159 --> 01:46:13.279
to get into it, because.

1660
01:46:13.000 --> 01:46:16.960
There's well I think that in love is actually if

1661
01:46:17.039 --> 01:46:19.239
you look scientifically into it, and they came out.

1662
01:46:19.159 --> 01:46:26.840
With some tests, there'll be true romantics absolutely horrified about you. Sorry,

1663
01:46:26.920 --> 01:46:27.640
science into.

1664
01:46:27.520 --> 01:46:30.600
This, I'm sorry. The science is that it equates to

1665
01:46:31.720 --> 01:46:35.159
the same thing that in the brain. It in love,

1666
01:46:35.239 --> 01:46:37.800
and it only lasts for a little while. I think

1667
01:46:37.880 --> 01:46:41.720
they say maybe six months or maybe a little bit longer.

1668
01:46:41.840 --> 01:46:45.439
But it's no different how it activates the brain, and

1669
01:46:45.600 --> 01:46:50.880
it's for a purpose. It acts like cocaine does on

1670
01:46:51.079 --> 01:46:54.760
the brain. Now, these are new tests. Look it up everyone.

1671
01:46:54.960 --> 01:46:57.640
I don't know. I don't I can't name the scientists.

1672
01:46:57.239 --> 01:46:58.359
Love the new cocaine.

1673
01:46:59.199 --> 01:47:02.479
I don't think it's really new. But it actually activates

1674
01:47:02.520 --> 01:47:06.000
the same part of the brain as is cocaine. So

1675
01:47:06.119 --> 01:47:10.800
it's like being on a drug, and so it does

1676
01:47:11.119 --> 01:47:17.319
eventually go away. It's supposed to though. In it's supposed

1677
01:47:17.359 --> 01:47:22.159
to bring people together and so you have that nice

1678
01:47:22.239 --> 01:47:29.720
high and you don't notice anything about the person except no,

1679
01:47:29.880 --> 01:47:31.199
everything is perfect, right.

1680
01:47:32.239 --> 01:47:36.439
Every relationship in the whole wide world has challenge love.

1681
01:47:36.640 --> 01:47:39.119
I'm not asking I'm not asking you whether you've had

1682
01:47:39.159 --> 01:47:42.680
a flawless, perfect relationship because I know that doesn't exist.

1683
01:47:42.760 --> 01:47:43.720
I mean, I can't get near it.

1684
01:47:43.920 --> 01:47:45.079
Haven't you been in love before?

1685
01:47:45.239 --> 01:47:47.319
I have, and I've failed attempt.

1686
01:47:47.520 --> 01:47:49.319
No, it doesn't last for about six months.

1687
01:47:49.399 --> 01:47:50.840
It lasts for a little bit longer.

1688
01:47:50.680 --> 01:47:53.119
Than okay, a little bit longer the in love. But

1689
01:47:53.399 --> 01:47:55.399
I'm just I just heard about these tests, and I'm like,

1690
01:47:55.479 --> 01:47:56.199
that's so true.

1691
01:47:56.239 --> 01:47:59.359
But can I ask you? This is what I'm interested in,

1692
01:47:59.479 --> 01:48:02.520
is whether you mayor you think you're almost in love

1693
01:48:02.600 --> 01:48:05.680
with And I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, the

1694
01:48:05.800 --> 01:48:07.640
idea of being in love in the sense that if

1695
01:48:07.680 --> 01:48:11.479
you took love out of the equation, out of this equation,

1696
01:48:12.239 --> 01:48:16.319
what are you left with? Is it bare criminality or

1697
01:48:16.439 --> 01:48:17.279
is it something else?

1698
01:48:17.920 --> 01:48:23.319
I love him more today than I did when I

1699
01:48:23.560 --> 01:48:28.640
was in love and high on whatever drug that someone

1700
01:48:28.680 --> 01:48:33.079
wants to I love him more today. I hope everybody

1701
01:48:33.680 --> 01:48:40.359
in marriage gets there. I hope they get past that

1702
01:48:41.840 --> 01:48:46.319
place where you say, oh my gosh, I was in

1703
01:48:46.439 --> 01:48:49.720
love with you once. But now I see all these

1704
01:48:49.840 --> 01:48:58.199
things and I don't know. I just I when I

1705
01:48:58.279 --> 01:49:01.600
made his love is love when I made it when

1706
01:49:01.680 --> 01:49:04.920
I made his lunch the other day, and.

1707
01:49:07.720 --> 01:49:10.960
It's It's funny she still gets she still gets up

1708
01:49:10.960 --> 01:49:13.159
at three am. It gets up at three am and

1709
01:49:13.239 --> 01:49:16.359
makes your lunch. I find that incredible. I mean, you're.

1710
01:49:19.319 --> 01:49:23.079
Well. The other night, I was still awake and I said,

1711
01:49:23.159 --> 01:49:26.079
I don't want to get up at six when he does,

1712
01:49:26.159 --> 01:49:29.800
so I'm going to make it first. Sometimes it's in

1713
01:49:29.840 --> 01:49:34.319
the morning, but sometimes it will be. It just depends

1714
01:49:34.359 --> 01:49:35.560
on my schedule the next day.

1715
01:49:35.640 --> 01:49:37.319
But can you give me a port Can you give

1716
01:49:37.359 --> 01:49:39.000
me a bit of a picture of husband and wife?

1717
01:49:39.279 --> 01:49:41.800
I mean, what's he like as a husband.

1718
01:49:42.840 --> 01:49:43.960
Oh, now.

1719
01:49:46.880 --> 01:49:47.159
It does.

1720
01:49:47.399 --> 01:49:49.159
She's not going to say you're terrible on the camera.

1721
01:49:50.119 --> 01:49:51.119
Just listen to this.

1722
01:49:51.680 --> 01:49:53.720
Do you know how when he said he loves every

1723
01:49:53.840 --> 01:49:58.760
part of himself, Yeah, I do too, even the rotten parts.

1724
01:49:59.479 --> 01:49:59.880
What about it?

1725
01:50:00.239 --> 01:50:02.600
Parents? I mean you both seem to me from a

1726
01:50:02.640 --> 01:50:08.119
distance to be absolutely sensational parents. Is Mary a good mother?

1727
01:50:08.640 --> 01:50:09.560
She's a really good mother.

1728
01:50:11.720 --> 01:50:11.920
Yeah.

1729
01:50:12.840 --> 01:50:14.600
I think a lot of the I'm really grateful for

1730
01:50:14.680 --> 01:50:18.960
a lot of that she's imprinted in the girls. Like

1731
01:50:19.079 --> 01:50:23.680
what just the way, you know, how they treat others,

1732
01:50:24.000 --> 01:50:27.119
you know, and with their respect for others and other

1733
01:50:27.199 --> 01:50:36.199
people's things, And yeah, pretty much, sir, they're moral, they're

1734
01:50:36.239 --> 01:50:39.199
morals of that stuff.

1735
01:50:39.960 --> 01:50:43.079
There's a lot of people Villa who wouldn't survive the relationship,

1736
01:50:43.079 --> 01:50:47.159
wouldn't survive more than seven years with one partner being

1737
01:50:47.239 --> 01:50:51.960
in prison. Did but was it difficult to stay the course?

1738
01:50:55.880 --> 01:51:01.520
We actually did it. While I was she was in there.

1739
01:51:03.319 --> 01:51:05.479
I wanted to live my life. I mean, there was

1740
01:51:05.560 --> 01:51:08.960
no contact. There was a lot that I was going through.

1741
01:51:10.199 --> 01:51:11.279
Is that how to hear? Mary?

1742
01:51:12.079 --> 01:51:12.840
Oh? Did he date it?

1743
01:51:13.079 --> 01:51:13.119
We?

1744
01:51:13.680 --> 01:51:13.800
Oh?

1745
01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:15.199
No, we had an agreement.

1746
01:51:15.279 --> 01:51:21.279
I didn't even we did. You were like, go, oh, yeah,

1747
01:51:21.600 --> 01:51:23.880
I knew he needed so. So.

1748
01:51:24.079 --> 01:51:25.880
Yeah, so we had this agreement that she was going

1749
01:51:25.920 --> 01:51:27.319
to be away for a long time and I was

1750
01:51:28.000 --> 01:51:30.439
going to be you know, not to wait, to just

1751
01:51:30.560 --> 01:51:33.039
do whatever, you know, whatever's meant to be, He's going

1752
01:51:33.079 --> 01:51:33.239
to be.

1753
01:51:33.399 --> 01:51:34.359
It was kind of your youth.

1754
01:51:34.640 --> 01:51:38.319
Yeah, Oh that was always the intention that he would.

1755
01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:41.479
But I want to when I was there and you

1756
01:51:41.640 --> 01:51:47.199
asked me, there wasn't part of me wasn't saying I

1757
01:51:47.359 --> 01:51:52.119
wasn't believing, And I didn't it mind. I didn't mind

1758
01:51:52.319 --> 01:51:56.840
if I felt so fulfilled, and I thought everybody in

1759
01:51:56.920 --> 01:52:02.319
the world, if once in your life you have what

1760
01:52:02.520 --> 01:52:10.119
we had back then the union. The no I was

1761
01:52:10.399 --> 01:52:13.760
entirely I said, I have it for a lifetime and

1762
01:52:13.880 --> 01:52:16.119
it didn't matter if we got back together. That he

1763
01:52:16.920 --> 01:52:18.439
that that you did.

1764
01:52:18.760 --> 01:52:21.119
What does the future look like for the both of you?

1765
01:52:21.359 --> 01:52:23.960
Where does the story of Mary and VILLI end?

1766
01:52:24.760 --> 01:52:30.279
M that Mary does her best every single day, and

1767
01:52:30.399 --> 01:52:31.720
that's how the story ends.

1768
01:52:32.720 --> 01:53:04.840
And for Billy, I'll go with that no.