"Bad Teachers" Episode Nine: Mary Kay Leterneau

0:10 Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of the Elite. I'm your host, Jim Chapman, and we are back with another Bad Teachers episode. And look of all the Bad Teacher episodes that I have brought you so far, the subject of the podcast today, by far, ranks in the top spot as the most infamous bad teacher of them all. Even people who aren't necessarily crime junkies or society and culture junkies, they still know the name Mary K. Laturno. This, by far is the one I've had requested the most.

1:02 So I'm bringing you what you want, and that is her story. And we're going to start where we only started, at the beginning, before the teachers were teachers, and in Mary Kay Laturno's case, she was born in Tustin, California. This was on July thirtieth of nineteen sixty two. Her full name is actually Mary Catherine Laturno, but she was known to family and friends as Mary Kay, and her parents were what most people will consider regular parents. Her dad was a community college instructor and he was a politician. Her mother was a former chemist, and her family was what you would call strong Republicans. She grew up in a very large family as well. She was the third of seven children, but the first daughter, and she was raised in a very strict Catholic household. Now, if you just noticed, I mentioned that her mom was a former chemist.

1:57 As the family started to grow, her mother became a stay at home mother, which likely means she worked harder than she ever worked at her job, especially with a family of that size. And I also mentioned her father was a politician, now in addition to being a college professor. When Mary Kay was two years old, he started a political career. He ran for a seat in the state legislature as a Republican and he actually held positions as a senator and a congressman for the state of California. And believe it or not, in nineteen seventy two, Mary Kay Laturno's dad ran for president of the United States, which incidentally, that presidential election was won by Richard Nixon. Now, in nineteen seventy three, the Laturne family, they had some tragedy hit when Mary Kay's brother drowned in the family pool at their home. He was three years old. He was playing with another brother in the shallow end and while no one was held responsible for that toddler's death.

3:08 Mary Kay would later claim that incident caused a major rift between her mother and herself because as a result of the incident, her mother got very protective, as she would imagine, and she tasked Mary Kay with watching her brothers constantly. She said her mother got very cold with her after that incident. So in nineteen seventy eight, her father, who during this time was a state senator. He was reelected and he had intentions of running again for the nineteen eighty two state Senate election in California, but his political career was permanently damaged when during that year it was revealed that he had fathered two children outside of his marriage during an affair with a former student at a college where he taught political science. Now that affair caused Mary Kay's parents to separate, but they did reconcile later.

4:09 Now later on in life, friends said that the scandal really rocked Mary Kay, with one of her friends saying her ability to make decisions in her life based on things that were good for her were affected. She totally lost the ability. She lived in a fantasy world because it was the only world she could stand. Another friend commented that her parents were just very stressed. She theorized that mary Kay never felt comfortable talking to them about her feelings. So Mary Kay eventually graduates from Connolly High School, which was an all girls Catholic school in Anaheim, California, same place where Walt disneyland is and she was a member of the cheerleading squad. She then attends Arizona State University in Timpe, Arizona, and it's while in college that she meets a guy who was attending Arizona State by the name of Steve Laturno. They start dating and uh oh, mary Kay ends up pregnant. Now, being that her parents were so strict, of course, what do you think they told her to do? They said, you got to marry this guy. And although she stated later on that she was not in love with Steve, she marries him in nineteen eighty four and drops out of school as he does.

5:33 They're going to start this life together and they need to get jobs, like right out of the gate was their thought process. It was during this pregnancy she does find out that she's carrying twins, but sadly, one of those embryos miscarries while steal in the womb, Mary does give birth to the surviving twin, which became the first of the couples for children. So in nineteen eighty one, the couple moves to Anchorage, Alaska. Steve apparently found work as a baggage handler at Alaska Airlines, and Steve was from Alaska, so he felt comfortable and they move the family.

6:13 Then after a year in Alaska, they end up moving to Seattle, Washington. Steve gets transferred there. He's kind of moving up the ladder at Alaska Airlines, and shortly after arriving in Seattle, Mary Kay gives birth to their second child. It's nineteen eighty nine at this point, and Mary Kay she's determined to get some sort of degree, so she graduates from school in nineteen eighty nine and she earns her teaching certificate. The same year that she gets that certificate, she is hired to teach second grade at Shorewood Elementary School, which was the suburbs of Seattle, and she was highly praised by both students and parents as being just a phenomenal teacher, had an amazing record within that school district.

7:08 She was so good, in fact, that they had a waiting less to get into her class. That's how awesome a teacher, Mary Kay Laturno was so at this point in life, her and Steve appear to be just living this great life, having kids, both moving up their perspective professional ledders, and it continued that way. So in nineteen ninety one, Mary Kay Laturno, she's preparing for a brand new school year. She's teaching second grade still and amongst her students was a student in second grade, a child by the name of Billie Falau, who was eight years old, and Laturno kind of took to flaw by all accounts.

7:58 She introduced him to the piano, she bought him art supplies, she encouraged him to explore his obvious talent for art, even at a very young age. All the things you would expect from a good teacher. Right. So let's get into the limited background obviously on Villi Filial, which was chaotic to say the least, even at this very young age. Filile was a part of an American Samoan family. Filile was a confused and an emotionally needy child. His home life was sometimes violent. Even he and his three older siblings were being raised by their mother, Sunna Filile, who worked very long hours in a bakery. He hardly knew his father, Louave, a former auto mechanic. He was occasionally a preacher in a regular president inmate. His father had actually bothered eighteen children with five women. He had spent time in prison for armed robbery, and later in life, Falio would actually recall watching pornographic movies with his great grandfather.

9:13 He said, it's just how we lived, so really explosive family life that this kid was living, and Mary Kay kind of took him under her wing, and Philile he moves to third grade, in fourth grade, in fifth grade and Laturno, she continues, what you would think would have just been a mentoring type deal of Fhlile keeping up with him, really working with him on his art, which continued to stand out as a major talent that he had. Later in life, Laturno would say to the Seattle Times that there was a respect and insight, a spirit, an understanding between us that grew over time. It was the kind of feeling you have with a brother or sister, a feeling that they're a part of your life forever.

10:04 I felt one day he might marry my daughter. So in the fall of nineteen ninety five, Laturno was again Filile's teacher, this time for sixth grade. Now, by this point, Laturno's marriage was not good. It was kind of faltering, and her father also had cancer. At this time, Filile, who was twelve, started to occupy more and more of her attention and energy. He routinely stayed late with her in her classroom, She bought him dinner, often invited him to spend the night at her house, and once took him on a trip to Alaska with her family. I mean, what is going on? How has this not already figured out?

10:51 There's a problem here is beyond me. She also became increasingly flirtatious around this time, and Filile would later test I once she offered a strip off an article of clothing for every answer he got right on a history test. Now, by January of nineteen ninety six, Laturno, who at this time was thirty four, she suffered a miscarriage, and as a result, her marriage and her personal life with her husband just totally went into a tailsmith. Now to tell you how twisted Laturno was at this point. Later on, she would recall when her feelings for Fulao kind of changed, and she said it occurred during the summer of nineteen ninety six, when Filao was still twelve years old. Laturneri said she had discovered that Filial be a friend twenty dollars he would have sex with Laturno. Laturno admitted that she began fantasizing about him, but she said she had promised herself she would not do anything with Fulio before her to avoid that blazed my mind. I mean, because you know that would just be wrong, right, I mean, how messed up is this chick's logic by this point.

12:09 So obviously this kid, he's getting all this attention from this pretty teacher. He becomes deeply infatuated with. And one day Falile gives Laturno a sterling silver ring that he had found on the street, and he asked her to marry him. And get this, she takes her husband's ring off and she puts his ring on, and she wears it every day at school except when her husband would come around. So by this point, she is totally fucking up this poor kid's mind. And Filile would ask Laturno when would he get a kiss from her, and she would respond by telling him on the last day of school.

12:58 Now later on later told Barbara Walter she knew Filile was interested in her at this point, but she ignored his aggressive advances towards her, saying, one time he just came straight out and said, would you like to have an affair? I thought to myself, don't look at him in the eyes. Stay very busy, she said. Filile later told her that he was in love with her. She described the build up to the affair as a million moments that just kept building something very beautiful and scary at the same time. I mean, WTF. Now. A few days before Fulile's thirteenth birthday, the sexual abuse began. So on June eighteenth of nineteen ninety six, police they find Laturno and Filial in a car parked outside of Marina.

13:54 She was seen jumping into the front seat while Fulile pretended to sleep in the She and Filile they provided false names when they were asked for their IDs, and Philile lied about his age, saying he was eighteen. So the officer he's not an idiot. He's a twelve year old kid and he didn't look eighteen. He's very skeptical about this and the fact that they were saying they were just chilling in the car, and he asked Filial for his driver's license, which Filial failed to produce because I mean, he's twelve, he doesn't have a driver's license. So the officer gets Filau out of the car and he asked him if they were having sex, and Filile claimed that no touching had taken place, they weren't having sex.

14:42 And then Laturna gets questioned and she tells the officer that she and her husband had gotten into an argument and Filial, who she said was a family friend who had been staying the night with them, witnessed the argument, got scared and ran away. Upset, she said that she went out to find him and she found him at the Marina, so Laturno in Filile. They get taken to the police station, where Flile's mother was called, and Miss Flile said that Miss Laturno was a well known teacher of Villi's and had no issue with the two of them being in public, so police they dropped the matter. Later, Filial's mother told the Seattle Times quote he said there was nothing between them, and I assumed I could trust her with my son. She further stated that if police had alerted her to the fact that Laturno had lied about Filile's age and what had occurred in that car.

15:39 She would not have allowed her son to go back to Laturno. But this was not their first sexual encounter. Just weeks before this incident at the marina, the two had their first sexual encounter shortly before Filial's thirteenth birthday, in Laturno's home, after her husband left for work and while her four children were asleep. Laturno was thirty four at the time. Laturna said later the incident occurred late in the night that it didn't stop with just a kiss, and I thought that it would, and it just didn't.

16:21 When she was asked if she felt disgusted with herself, Laturneri said no, she didn't. She said, for one, I loved him very much, and I kind of thought, why can't it ever be just a kiss? This is a sick woman. And then something really unexpected happens. In September of nineteen ninety six, Laturno discovers she's pregnant with Falio's child. Falo at this point is entering the seventh grade, so she's still married as well at this time, and of course, she's hiding all of this, including the pregnancy, from her husband.

17:06 But in February of nineteen ninety seven, Steve Laturno he finds out about the relationship after he finds love letters written by his wife to Flow. And it's important to note that when he found these letters, he still didn't realize she was pregnant with the child's kids. He just knew they had a fucked up relationship going on. So Steve Laturno he confronts Villy, goes to his house, confronts him about it, and told him that if he didn't want his mom knowing about this, or anyone knowing about this, then it was going to end in VILLI I'm sure he's scared shitless at this point. I mean, he's a thirteen year old child. So he agrees to it, but he does confide in a family member about the altercation, and that family member notifies child protective services as well as school officials, and on March fourth of nineteen ninety seven, Mary Kay Laturno is arrested after a relative of her husband also finds out about this because the husband confided in the relative and contacts the police. Laturno is arrested for rape. So Laturna makes bell and don't forget she's been pregnant for quite a while with Flile's baby, and the media picks up on all of this. As a matter of fact, her four children, ages three to twelve,

18:40 were sent to live temporarily with relatives in Washington, d C. To protect them from the media. I mean, when this story came out, it was the largest story in the country. This is well before people realized what an issue these inappropriate teacher student relationships were. They didn't realize how prevalent this was way back in nineteen ninety seven. So on May twenty ninth of that year, Laturno gives birth to she and Villy's first child, a daughter, in Seattle. In less than three months later, on August seventh of nineteen ninety seven, Laturno pleaded guilty in King County Superior Court to two counts of child rape, although at this hearing she also attempted to depict her relationship with Lao as quote, romantic and consensual rather than predatory. On November fourteenth of nineteen ninety seven, the sentencing phase arrived, and more than one hundred reporters and photographers arrived with it. National and international news organizations were covering Laturno's sentencing hearing. It was held before Superior Court Judge Linda Laile, One television producer, said, obviously this is a story because she is a thirty five year old woman. If this was a thirty five year old man who impregnated a thirteen year old girl,

20:11 he'd be in jail in there be no national story. Liaturne's request for a special sexual offender sentencing alternative was granted, and the trial court sentenced her to eighty nine months of total confinement, suspended on various conditions, including three years of specialized treatment for sexual deviancy. In my opinion, she needed a lot more than three years. For a plea agreement, her sentence was reduced to six months. Three of that was suspended, so she ended up with three months in a county jail and three years of sex offender treatment. She was not required initially to register even as a sex offender, if you can believe that. As part of the plea agreement, and this is important, Liturno could not contact for life. Laturno was additionally sentenced to community custody for two years to commence upon completion of her terms of confinement, with a condition that she not received any tangible or intangible property that is a result of her commission of the crimes. In other words, she was ordered not to profit from publishing or otherwise commercializing the story of her crimes that will become important later on. Flyile's mother spoke at the hearing, and in a prepared statement, she said she had forgiven Laturno and hoped others would do the same. She said, Mary is not a bad person.

21:37 She is just a human being who made a terrible mistake. She asks the court to order treatment rather than jail time for the woman who made her a grandmother. She said, I feel Mary has been punished enough for her mistake. I plead, on behalf of my granddaughter, that Mary be sent to treatment rather than jail. She also spoke of the effect on her son, who she said, carry guilt with him as long as she is in jail. A psychiatrist by the name of doctor Julia Moore said that Laturno suffered from bipolar disorder formerly known as manic depression, a condition that contributed to her reckless behavior. The psychiatrist concluded and the judge agreed that with medication, Laturno would be a good candidate for sex offender treatment. So Judge Linda Lyle said she was persuaded by the expert testimony and by the wishes of the victim and his family that community based treatment was appropriate. Judge Lyle told Laturna that whether she remained free would be completely up to her.

22:41 She said, it will not be easy. You will not simply be released into the community to resume your former life. From the moment you are released and for the next few years, your life will not be your own. And a tearful Laturno promised the judge she would have nothing more to do with Lyle. She said, I did something I had no right to do morally or legally. It was wrong. I'd give you my word it won't happen again. Please help me, help us all. So. On January tewod of nineteen ninety eight, Mary Kay Laturno is released from the Regional Justice Center in Kent, Washington.

23:22 And of course, at that point Laturno had lost her job, she had pretty much lost her marriage, her home, the custody of her children, who at this point were living with their father. Then if you did not think this lady could be any dumber as it relates to her decision making. Four weeks after completing her jail sentence, Laturno she gets found in a car with Flial by police. Flyal, at this time was fourteen. Laturno initially tried to claim she was Aligned in the car and he was hiding in the back under a blanket, but police saw him, so they pulled them out. They asked for identification. Both of them claim they don't have any and give the police false names, but of course that didn't fly. By this point, every single person in the state of Washington, and really in the United States knew exactly what Laturno looked like. So they questioned Falial further and he tells the detective that he and Laturno had kissed frequently, and it also reported that he had touched Laturno on the thigh, but no sexual intercourse had occurred, and in that car there was evidence the two had met several times since Laturno's release from jail on January second of that year. Now, when she was arrested, police found sixty two hundred dollars in cash, baby clothes, and her passport, inside the car.

24:51 Receipts for eight hundred and fifty dollars in purchases made since January twentieth for men's, young men's and infant clothes were also found. Now Laturno claimed the money was for dermatology treatments and for her divorce lawyer, in that some of the men's clothing were gifts for relatives and for herself since she enjoyed wearing oversized men's clothing. She tried to tell the police Laturno had also purchased a pager for Flaal to get in touch with her. Yes, pagers were where it was at in nineteen eighty eight. Y'all CPS, of course was alerted and this was a major violation of her conditions of release. And on February sixth of nineteen ninety eight, Laturno was brought again before Judge Lynda Laud this for the second time in three months. So this judge, I'm sure she is pissed by this point.

25:48 She revokes Laturno's prior plea agreement and she reinstates the prison sentence of seven and a half years for violating this no contact order. Judge lyostated that the contents found in the Laturno's car indicated that she planned to leave town with flywe in, their nine month old daughter. Both the prosecutor and the probation officer depicted Laturno as a manipulator who didn't believe she needed treatment because she didn't believe she was doing anything wrong. Liaturno's attorney at the time, he made a plea for mercy. He said, quote, society does not need to be protected from Mary Kay Laturno. The person that really needs to be protected from Mary Kay Laturno is Mary Kay Laturno. When the attorney finished, the judge told Laturno, this case is not about a flawed system.

26:39 It's about an. Opportunity that you foolishly squandered. And I can't agree with that. More So, Laturno is ordered to server sentence at Washington Correction Center from Women at Gig Harbor, Washington. Now, what everybody came to find out soon after she returned to prison was hold on to your ass for this one. Laturno was pregnant with the lial's second child at this time, and it was also during this time she was placed on suicide watch. Laturno's attorney told reporters she's upset that this news is came out so early in the pregnancy.

27:23 It seems like someone at the prison had access to her medical records and release the information prematurely without her consent. And the insanity with this lady. She continues to stay in touch with this kid. One way she would was by sending out messages in milk bottles. She was producing milk in prison for her baby, and she would put notes inside the caps of the milk as it went out. Somehow she managed to even send audio tapes out, and she would have prisoners make phone calls for her because she couldn't cond intact filiwed directly, and then she would just get on the phone. These are supposed to be monitor but obviously they weren't being Now, it may surprise you a lot to know that Steve Laturno and Mary Kay they were not divorced at this time. They were separated to be sure, but on March of nineteen ninety eight, Steve Laturno did indeed file for divorce. He said that their children were handling it pretty well despite their anger. Then, on October sixteenth of nineteen ninety eight, while serving her second stint in jail. Laterna gives birth to her second daughter by Filial. Hours after the birth, Laturna returned to jail from the hospital. Philial at this time fifteen years old. Unbelievable,

28:53 so sadly. In March of nineteen ninety nine, Filile he attempts suicide, told Barbara Walters, there's this hopelessness, like nobody understands you. You can't talk to anyone. I wish I'd had a little better guidance through everything. I don't have a father, my mother is busy too. No one knew how to deal with it, and I sure didn't know how to deal with it. That is my point with these teacher student inappropriate relationships, and why I push this series so hard. Even with guys and it's a female doing it, their head gets screwed up. Trust me when I tell you just horrible. In nineteen ninety eight, Laturno in Falile they actually co author a book and it gets published in France and it was called only One Crime Love. In statements made in the book, Laturno described Fhlile as a soulmate and her companion for life and emotionally mature for his age. An expert on sex offenders, incidentally named Lucy Burnler. She said it was typical for sex offenders to make such arguments and that was a way of them rationalizing and justifying their behavior. There's no way this guy was emotionally mature. In nineteen ninety nine, a second book appeared, published in the United States, this time but it was written with only minimal cooperation from her and none from Flaw. It was called If Loving

30:26 You Is Wrong, and at this point in her imprisonment she was able to negotiate it where she was allowed to visits from her children. Now, in regards to those books, they were selling like hotcakes, but Laturno's portion of the royalties. Of course, they're getting held back by the courts because of that first order that was in place, saying she couldnot profit from her crimes. However, Laturno does fight this, and in April of two thousand, the State Court of Appeals ruled that Laturno could not be barred from profit by selling her story as part of her sentence. So she does get that money, and it was a substantial amount. The appellate court also ruled that Laturno could visit with her six children When asked if the children who she saw while she was locked up knew anything about what was going on, Laturno later explained in an interview, I mean the story is that their mother was away at prison.

31:24 Who this lady? So. In two thousand and one, Mary Kay Laturno's father dies and Laturno did request of furlough to attend his funeral in Fort Meyer, Virginia, but her request was denied. And it was also during this time that she's trying to make the best of prison life. She tutored fellow inmates, she created audio books for blind readers. She even participated in the prison choir, and she rarely missed Catholic Mass at the prison. But because of her notoriety, she was not popular with other inmates and they knew what she had done and whether it's a teacher raping a child or a man raping a woman that don't like Peedo's in prison staff also viewed Laturno as having a cocky attitude.

32:20 She spent eighteen of her first twenty four months in prison in solitary confinement. In one instance, she served six months in solitary when letters she tried to send filile were intercepted. In one of those letters, she threatened to have him castrated if he had anything to do with other women, but she later said she was joking. So what about those two kids that she had with Villy Well, Filile's mother was granting custody of his two children, and Fililes said that having children was a huge change in his life. He didn't feel like he had support from his family and friend. He said he had no idea what it was like to be a parent because he was fourteen fifteen years old at the time. So life moves on in Three years later, on August fourth of two thousand and four, Laturno is released from prison. She has to register the next day as a lifetime Level two sex offender with the Sheriff's Office, and following her release, Filial, who is now twenty one, somehow persuaded the court to reverse the no contact order against her. Hours after her release, Filile's attorney filed a motion to vacate the sentencing order that barred any further contact between the two. Within hours of the no contact order being lifted, Laturno and Flile

33:51 had reunited. The attorney argued he is now an adult and as an adult is requesting the court allow him to associate with other adults of his choosing, specifically Mary Kay Laturno. I would be interested to know the lessener's thoughts on this. What are y'all's thoughts, because this is kind of a fine line. He is twenty one at this point. Do you think it was the right thing to do to go ahead and lift that order? Considering that? Love to hear your thoughts. The media, of course, was all over this, and every tabloid as well as the mainstream media was covering the reuniting of these two. I'm as celebrating it. They went on Larry King, Barbara Walters, you name it. In fact, Larry King Live featured Laturno and he asked her about her other kids, and she stated, I know that my other children and I are going to work very closely through this and use as many resources as we have to make sure we grow through this in a healthy way. I'm very sensitive to each of my older children developmental level and their understanding right now, and I'm there for them. They're in Alaska, but I stay very very close in touch with them. It's just not appropriate to talk about with my ten or twelve year olds right now. So it's not appropriate for her to talk to her twelve year old child about it, but it's appropriate for her to fuck a twelve year

35:22 old child. Sorry, that's the way I feel about it. I think her mind is twisted, so many words for that. So Laturno, who at this time is forty three, in filial who is twenty one at this point, they get married, y'all in Washington in a ceremony at a winery. Wedding registries were set up at Williams Sonoma, Macy's and Tiffany's, and their daughters were flower girls. Exclusive access to the wedding was given to the television show Entertainment Tonight, and photographs were released through other media outlets. Laturner said she planned to have another child and returned to the teaching profession, indicating that by law she was permitted to teach at private schools and community colleges. Thank god she never followed through with that. In two thousand and six, in an interview with NBC News, Laturner conceded she knew it would be wrong to let the relationship go any further, but she said as soon as the school year ended, she and Billy did cross that line. She said that it didn't cross my mind at the time that having sex with the Lyle would be a crime. If that don't tell you how psycho this lady is, I don't know what would. In a later interview, she stated if someone had told me, if anyone had told me that there's a specific law that says this is a crime, I didn't know. I've said this over and over again. Had I known, if anyone knows my personality, just the idea

36:53 would count as a crime. Again, how psycho is this lady? By two thousand and nine, if Lyle was dejaying in a Seattle club and Laturno hosted a quote hot for teacher night at the club, you gotta be kidding me. Laturno was the MC as well at that club. It's on what married life right? Happily? Ever, after all that, well not exactly or maybe so listen to this really strange thing that occurred with these two. On May ninth of twenty seventeen, after I missed twelve years of marriage, Flile files for separation from Laturno, who at this point is fifty five. He's thirty three. Filile said the couple had no children who are still dependents, and neither he nor Mary Kay owned any property, and he said he's unaware of any debts. Philio asks the court to divide any property they had fairly as the court decides, and he said spousal's support is not needed. He did not want an order of protection. Even so, Filile tells a reporter, it's not necessarily what you think. Everything's fine between us, all the rumors you hear between us, it's fine. Rather, he was trying to start a business and he wanted to disentangle himself from potentially messing up the background check.

38:17 Filile explained, when you want to get licensed, they do background checks on both parties. If I decide to be a part of it, I'd have to be licensed and I have to be vetted. And so does a spout. She has a past and she has a history, which actually makes sense. And later he did withdraw that filing. So as of April of twenty eighteen, Philile was working at a home improvement store and as a professional DJ and his stage name was DJ Headline, while Laturno was working as a legal assistant, and they were still married and still seemingly happy in note I use the word seemingly because in August of twenty nineteen, Filile and Laturno to finalize legal separation orders. Filile then moves to California, and an unnamed source told People magazine that Filile sees things more clearly now and realizes that this wasn't a healthy relationship from the start. Then, on July six of twenty twenty, Mary Kay Liturno dies in her home in Des Moines, Washington, from colon cancer. She was fifty eight years old. Laturno's oldest son, Steve Liturno Junior, said in a statement, we are deeply saddened to share the very difficult news that our beloved Mary passed away peacefully on

39:47 July sixth of twenty twenty after a six month battle. Since being diagnosed with stage four cancer, Mary fought tiresly against this terrible disease. It is in that spirit that we have for privacy and respect, for our desire to focus on the road ahead for all of us who make up Mary's collective family. Filile and his family were also at her side. Despite their separation. A joint statement was made by the Filile and Laturno families to commemorate her passing. In her will, Laturno left much of her estate to Fuilau, So a very sad ending to what was obviously a very very sick woman mentally. I don't even know what to say beyond that, but I do have something else for you today, So don't go anywhere.

40:44 I'm about to play you a full interview, one of the few interviews that Mary kay Laturno and Billy Filile gave together. This was to sixty minutes Australia. Really interesting. This was done in twenty eighteen, so get ready for that full interview. I do want to thank everyone for lessening. Check out the Patreon once again. You're not going to hear my clothes after the interview. The interview will just end. And here's that. Even now, some two decades later, you can't help but ask. What was she thinking?

41:25 What was it that drove school teacher Mary Kayla Tourno to begin a secret affair with her twelve year old student, Villi Falou. Mary said it was true love, but no one else saw it that way. She was jailed twice and even had two children to the underage Villi, but somehow the relationship endured remarkably, they're still together today. Here's Matt Dorian. What about these as parents? You've got some good parents here. I'm trying to work out whether the looks come from and whether you've got mum's looks or dad's looks, or it's a mixture of both. I think it's a good mixture of both. For a brief time, this was the most talked about family on Earth. Mary kay La Tourno made world news when she seduced her twelve year old student, Villy Flout.

42:16 Yeah, a thirty five year old teacher who had sex for the thirteen year old sex Greater fathoms to eating Mary. Kay Laturna the last person you would suspect of being a molester of children. Villy is now her husband. Then there's their children, Audrey born while their mother was on trial and Georgia born in prison. Did you kind of understand what all the funeral or the interest was about at the time. I think so. I think I understand about it. It was wrong. And I am sorry.

42:57 As we'll see tonight, this is a family still with the truth of what happened more than two decades ago, and who was to blame. No matter you know what you might call this relationship. It certainly hasn't been fleeting. How long have you you both been married for now? I think this year was thirteen, Yeah, thirteen and then two thousand by six, okay, yeah. About thirteen years, I mean plus yeah, that's quite incredible. Has that time gone quickly? Slowly? Time kind of just really flows by? Actually, and you're busy every day. So well, you're busy. You're busy, very very busy being parents.

43:41 I think those years were so when you're moving through the school years, those went really fast. It seems I'm like, oh my goodness, weren't they just six and eight? Just whoa? And I tell that's what I tell parents, like it's going to go fast, and like every day matters. And because we have friends with children that were once our children's age and grade school and middle school, high school, and now both of our daughters are graduated recently, and it's it just especially high school, it seemed to go by very quickly. It's there was so many involvements, their activities, and it just you're just like staying on it, staying on it, uniforms for this and going from this activity to this activity, and here comes the homecomings, the proms, and the it was just it just keeps going in fast, fast, fast, and all of a sudden what all of a sudden they they're gone.

44:57 No, no, Well it's it's funny you should mention that you're you're on the cusp of a big life event as parents. Your youngest is preparing to do the unthinkable and move out. Really, how are you coping? You know, it's natural, I guess, you know, I hear like a lot of people, a lot of a lot of girls who turn eighteen, they kind of just leave the nest and then if you're a guy, you kind of stay in a little longer. Oh, I think the opposite, that's what I heard. Oh, I think I think the opposite. But yeah, our daughter was a college bound and now she has a different idea and so we have to be patient with that.

45:39 So it's she was always our youngest. We're going to be patient with that. Sixteen sixteen, Yeah, yeah, I mean it's guys are guys are a little bit different. A lot of the guys, I know, they hang in longer because they get the free rent, you know, but guys are very basic like that. See a female, I see where you're I see where you're both coming from, all right. And girls they're kind of they're a little more independent, you know. I mean a lot of the girls that I knew growing up, they were out of their house when they were eighteen. Well, give me a sense, Philly, if you could of your your upbringing, your childhood. You come from fittis Ia, a very big family.

46:20 Yeah. Uh yeah. My dad was married five times, and there's a total of eighteen of us siblings. We didn't grow up altogether. I grew up with my four full blooded siblings. I eventually met the rest of them went growing up. I still have more to meet. But yeah, that's uh, yeah, that's a that's an up that's sort of a crazy upbringing, isn't it. I Mean it's a there's a lot going on at Christmas or around the family dinner table. It's just stay simple. I mean, I. Not everyone gets a Christmas gift, but yeah, just uh just a close relative. Yeah yeah, Mary, what about you? What about your your background and and your upbringing? Tell me a bit about your family, all right?

47:07 So, uh, my father was married once. Just saying, so, oh, where are we going? Tell me a bit about your father. I have a mother who my mother is, my father's passed away, and I have six siblings, five five still living. Was it a was it a Catholic upbringing for you married? Yes? And what is what? What did that involve? How kind of devout? How traditional was your family in that regard?

47:51 For me, it's just a beautiful heritage. That's how I do think of it. I just personally, I when I've traveled internationally, I just something about going into a Catholic church. It's just they're all the same in the sacredness feeling, and it just it's just a I know you're asking what was that like, like as if as if there's some uniqueness to being raised Catholic, But I guess I'm just taking present. How does it feel to have been raised Catholic?

48:38 I just. It's I think it's a I just think of it historically, because it's not just that I was raised Catholic. It's both of my parents are from a Catholic family, and back and back and back and back. So that's why I say a heritage, and so it when I go into a Catholic church, doesn't matter where it is, it's it just feels really good. It's like a it's like this flooding of my heritage. And I won't say that. I am entirely if someone put a certain doctrine in front of me that was Catholic, said what do you think of this? It doesn't mean a lot to me.

49:25 I'm more I shouldn't say it like that. I don't like I wouldn't say because that's like rules, the doctrine of the Catholic Church. And I'm more am appreciative of the roots roots roots of the Catholic Church, which are is really just the core of Christianity. People think there's a difference, really tellscussion. No, I'm just saying no, there isn't you know was it's no. I just.

50:07 I'm not sure what your question was. But I think that you think that I or I think you're asking about certain if there was a uniqueness, If I think there was uniqueness. Let me ask you. Let me ask you about you too. When did you first meet Billy. Meet Well, I met his brothers and older sister before I met him. He's so there are four in his family. And then. The first time I was familiar with the name Billy full of ouh Gosh, I don't know, nineteen eighty, nineteen eighty nine, eighty eight, Not sure?

50:56 Was that when you were here? His year two teacher, that's one of. My students back then. I hardly remember. Of course I remember his name, so and I knew the Philla family because I knew the other siblings so before, and then here came a unique one. So well, they're all quite unique as any family, I think, or all the siblings are unique. This will this will be a test of your memory, Billy. I mean you would have been eight or sorry back then. Do you have any memory of those years?

51:37 He's kind of like not really like good memories, but some of them are just random, just pretty much random stuff. What sort of memories? Like I remember hiding in the in the closet in the in the classroom, and then me and my friends we used to be in there hiding classroom. Why don't you say what you were doing hiding in the class Now, what did you tell me you were doing? That's it's weird to talk about. Right, which only makes me want to know about it even more. Go on, Mary, what was he doing in the closet? Oh? Just what you said to me? It's like, yeah, We're hid in the closet and we'd hope you'd walk past so we could look under your skirt. I'm like, what the heck? I mean, who's like tell us like years later, like is that what you told it?

52:27 Is what you told me? Mm hmm, you feel better. No, I'm just. Saying donated pools for mediation here. No, I'm just saying it was like, what does he remember? That's what he told me he remembered. I'm like, wow, Wow, I had no idea. There's also like two three girls in there that liked me, and I used to get like these weird messages from them, like little notes. Really yeah, yeah, weird you can. I thought it was so aware. I had no idea. There were closet. The closet spanned in It spanned the whole side of this so it's not like the just for the visual. And there were these big giant like from bottom to top of the doors. All right.

53:21 What attracted you to teaching initially, Mary, I. Just found myself. I was originally in the school of music in college and always had the music background, and I found myself music and music and dance. I found myself in teaching positions whether it be coaching or choreography, and I just I once I got to college, and as much as I enjoyed it and I believed that I was, I knew I was good in the arts in that area, and I so enjoyed it, and I thought I might be join the what's called Kids of the Kingdom, which was part of Disneyland. They traveled and they did dance and singing music. So I thought, oh, yeah, that maybe we're all start right and so far as what would someone do with the background in music and that kind of interest. But when I got to college, I found that I was good.

54:36 Is this music or teaching? Are you talking about I'm talking about music? And this is how I well, this is what happened. I found I was an a at teaching because I even the professors at college, they said, oh, well, you take this group over here. Did they recognized and even prior to that, prior to getting to colleg I was coaching this and choreography, and I was I realized that, you know what, I'm a bee in music and dance. I'm a bee good. That's good. Nothing wrong with the bee. And but I was an a at teaching and everybody recognized it, and I've soon recognized for myself that I was really an a.

55:22 What made you and I at teaching? I think just being tuned into a lot of good listening and being aware, and how about just really making clear what the objective is, uh, and setting the goals, adjusting them along the way as the learning or the gaps are showing, knowing how to adjust things and bringing in the resources. And it just was natural, very natural.

56:05 Can you remember back Villy to being a student. Was Mary a good teacher? I remember all the kids really tuned into it. She was saying, and yeah, I don't really know what to look for and what a good teacher, what a good bad teacher is? For me, A good teacher would keep my attention, and a bad teacher would be someone who talks, you know where it's like kind of monotone, where it's kind of she just kind of fall asleep while teacher's talking. We just happened a lot of times in middle schools. Well, it's fit to say Mary had your attention. I believe what what This is a tough question. What what what attracted? What first attracted you to Mary? Can you remember?

56:48 Uh? She was pretty and uh, yeah, I think that was it. And then and then yeah, and then I don't know, I'm kind of like that she drew a little bit. She taught some art stuff and I thought that was kind of cool. And then I think, like in sixth grade, we kind of connected on certain things, kind of like saw common views on stuff life and similar interests. Yeah, So, Mary, when did you first realize I have feelings for a student?

57:41 Probably? Well, first of all, he wasn't my student, when any any feelings, so, which I think is really important here. It was very important for the here in the United States and the state of Washington. It was really important for it to be put out, and I guess politically and a lot of legislation, it was important to portray it as if it was a student teacher relationship, but it really wasn't. So even though once upon a time even you ask well, when did you first Well, I feel kind of awkward answering that because it's sort of wanting to connect it to this was a student teacher relationship, which is really big in law and doesn't matter coach, teacher, supervisory.

58:41 It was after so I am saying that I was taking college classes for my continuing education. For my certification in teaching, you have to have it every five years. You got to update so or else they pull your certification. So and a lot the same in a lot of industry professions you have to do continuing education. I had classes. He was also in a class at the same college, so for summer. So yes, it was summer school, but it was school. It was a class in the summer.

59:24 Let me ask you, Billy in a different way, at what point did this morph I guess from teacher and former student to boyfriend and girlfriend. Just a friendship really, And then during summertime, you know, things just got a little closer, and you know, there was some there's some I don't even know how to say it, dramatic stuff going on. Drama. Really, there was plenty of dramatic stuff going on. There was a lot of things I kind of just le to what was kind of connecting on a deeper level. And then it got even more wild crazy once the police found out and her husband found out.

1:00:14 And I think we at least we spoke to each other as if in that summer we felt like boy it was boyfriend girlfriend And that's why I guess that's what I'm there wasn't a teachers. Well, when you consider we were in the same college. We both took an art class at the same college. And. I think it was it felt really great. I'm just saying it felt great because we were so close as we were close as friends, and then just to not be his teacher in any capacity and to be friends and to be working on the same projects and it is on the same level, and it just felt great.

1:01:06 And just saying, I don't know what that what was dramatic going on, but I mean inside of us, probably, Yeah, when things when we realized I don't know, you called me your girlfriend, Yeah, he did. It's it's best not to argue your village. This is my experience. Yeah. Yeah, when Mary did really make it clear to you that he was interested in you physically sexually. I guess can you remember that moment? You must remember that moment. I just remember, Uh, yes, there was one point and I said, put that away. I just met the idea and it yeah, here's a there's a story about that.

1:02:02 I don't know how much time we have, but how did that idea manifest? Philly? What did you say? I don't want to talk about it. Oh, I'm just there was I just I appreciate, appreciated this the wrong wrong word, But there was no there was a moment where he said that he was He did say he was in love with me, and I was. It scared me, scared me. And that was before anything physical between you both. He said he was in love. Oh yeah, yeah, like I don't know, yeah, like weeks a month.

1:02:45 M that feel like love to you back then, Philly, Yeah, it means for anyone, Yeah, that's what you would Uh, I don't know for me, Yeah, I mean for anybody first time figure out what love is for the first time, you know, that's all you know. So for what I know that it was back then, Yeah, I would say that that was real love. I'm trying to take a couple of steps back to when you first made that brave decision to say something to Mary. Was it initially on a dare or you know, in front of your. Mites, Yeah, it was. Actually it started off that way with trying to get a get closer to her. But that was the reason of which I knew nothing about. Yeah, so yeah, so that's how her and I started talking.

1:03:38 It was because there was a bet and then you know later down the road in the relationship kind of just the bet just was it even cra haven't even crossed my mind anymore. So wow, So one thing, and I think this is is an answer to your question. It was. And I still think about this moment and still because I remember, well, I'm just saying, every time I think about this moment.

1:04:21 You remember when you came to me to write you said wait, And this was when it was. It was a very very end of the school year. And I don't even think school was really I think it was basically done. Things were closing up. But I was on my way out the door and he said, wait a minute, and he said, how old do you think you're going to be when you die? And I said, I was really excited because I'm going to talk about my grandmother, right, And I know, I just said, my mom's going to live till hunt, but my grandmother, which is not even her mother, my father's mother, she really did live to one hundred and three. And I so I was really excited because he had never asked about my grandmother and or any you know, thing maybe beyond my parents. And I said, I said, well, I'm probably I'm going to at least be a hundred because my grandmother right now is a hundred and I'm most like her. She and I started talking about how she still teaches piano, and she was a hundred, right, And I was really excited inside that he was interested in I don't know, I was excited to talk about my grandmother. And he cut me off and he said, well, if you're going to be one hundred, then I'm going to be eighty because I'm not living another day in this world without you.

1:05:47 And I just was like, I'm like, look, it's a pretty romantic thing for a teenage boy to say. I said, you just said that to me. But at the time we were just close. I was close close, and I was a little tiny bit of me was like, you just cut me up. I was talking about my grandmother. And I mean, if someone asked you to talk about your grandmother, asked you to, well, I guess you didn't really ask me. I thought I thought it was an opening to talk about my grandmother, which I was proud to talk about. If you extrapolate the age forward like that, it makes it sound better, right. But you know, back then thirty four and thirteen, did you have a sense that what you were doing wasn't right.

1:06:33 Hearing him say, hearing him. Putting the grandmother aside of. Just the age eighty eighty and one hundred, well. What about back then, I was thirty four and thirteen. I was just thinking about eighty and one hundred, if you want to know the truth. No, a part of you was thinking about A part of you must have been thinking matter you. By all accounts, everyone in Des Moines says you're one of the best teachers going around, a fierce into You must have known such a smart woman that this something wasn't right about what was going on at that age. Well, just know that there wasn't any any thought or any idea that something was going to happen. So no, there wasn't a thought about. There wasn't thought about we were just even when he said eighty and one hundred, I was just thinking, you're so right. I don't want to live another day without you either. No, it wasn't even.

1:07:35 It wasn't a thought of, oh, and we're going to have children and there's There wasn't a thought like that. It was that type of a closeness that you're so right, I don't want to live another day without you either. What's fascinating about your relationship is that it has endured, you know, that separates it from anything else that might go in the what people would call teacher student space. But I think what I'm trying to get at is the sense of back at the time, at its inception, before this had evolved into something like love, wasn't this just a physical relationship between a woman and a man? Or I should say at that point a little boy.

1:08:15 Well, you shouldn't say a little boy. He was thirteen, I know, but you shouldn't say a little boy. Well, a teenage foe. Well, you know some people are incarcerated in this date at age thirteen and they're treated as an adult and they're not called little boys, and they get a life sentence. So when you put it in that perspective, so it's like, how which angle do you want to come. At I want to come at it from that. I'll tell you, well, I do you want to know are you hearing what I'm saying. I'm hearing what you're saying. I want to come at it from this angle. As a thirty four year old woman, did you have any philosophical problems? Moral problems with entertaining the idea of a relationship with a thirteen year old boy.

1:08:56 Well, I wasn't entertaining the idea, and that's my point. But but you clearly were. Eventually, eventually we both. And did you have any pause at the time thinking Mary style away from him? This isn't right. What I thought is he doesn't understand that I have four children and I have responsibilities. That's what That's the only thing. And you have to keep in mind that now it's twenty years ago, and sure in the last ten years, all across the world, the laws have change and everybody and you'll even see ever since Mary Latourno, ever since. But see that was twenty years ago. Now everybody has their eyes open and is aware. Surely, I hope every teacher, and forget about even the teacher part.

1:09:58 I would hope that every adult that's a female, regardless of being a teacher, would no, after my situation, pay attention because there's law. There are laws. You might think when you're in a world we were close, and no, we weren't thinking about those things. No, I wasn't. There were no laws back that would that anybody. There were no situations. Laws married. For males, and if you look historically, it was a male only and then the laws changed when the when equality, let's go mat on this, you want to because I'm ready, sure, okay.

1:10:49 So the equal Rights amendments from state to state here in the United States, and it even happened over in Australia, New Zealand and what's called the Equal Rights Amendment. And what they did is they knew they gender neutralled the laws. Prior to that, it was male only. It was a male only statutory rape. So when did somebody get on the news and say, hello world, or Hello New Zealand, Hello, or I don't know how you do your states over there, but if they're in states, nobody got on. Nobody did a press release here in the state of Washington or in California where I was from, and said, we have now changed the laws. It is no longer gender it is no longer gender specific a male only. When I grew up, sure as a teenager, I knew that, oh if that male. The males knew because it was well known thing because of because a lot of dads out there were saying stay away from stay away from the daughters.

1:11:58 Here in this out because I'll get a shotgun out because you're older, and I can charge, I can go to the police, and it would be called statutory rape. I don't care if you love my daughter, you're twenty six, you're thirty, whatever you are, and my daughter's only sixteen, thirteen, fifteen, whatever. It was a very well known statutory rape was it was very well known. It didn't matter if there was love, It didn't matter if it was consensual. And that word is there, statutory meaning, it doesn't matter if it's if there's consent male only, and it's not until and if you can look all across any kind of scholastic reading on this that goes historically, and my name will even be there, not until my situation in the law, the conflict in the law did.

1:12:57 So are you saying that you saying that was fusion about the law at that time, or that you didn't understand. Nobody knew it, who knew it, who knew it? But you knew, you know, Mary, Come on, you knew that it was not right, even if it wasn't black and right, if you didn't have the statue of true papers there. Morally you knew morally morally, is that that's what you're. Saying morally, No, I'm saying morally and legally, not the legally parton No, But you were such a smart person. One I'd never even been in a courtroom if I am a smart person, but I am like hyper focused in my areas. So you're saying, Matt, I'm a smart person. I'm revered as a teacher. But I just didn't know it wasn't right as a thirty four year old to be with a thirteen year old.

1:13:42 Sorry, not in a criminal sense, but I thought, first of all, you just said teacher. Again, and well you were his teacher in second once upon a. Time once Yeah, okay, you keep going back to that. Not at this I'm not saying it happened. Then you're saying at one point you were his teacher. Look, I'm not trying to get into semantics over that. I'm just trying to accept. In the end, you stood up in court and pleaded guilty to two counts, out to some elements, two counts of child ripe. Well, the only thing that that title is is a deterrent, and I'm glad it's there as a deterrent. Now I understand the laws in general, but I.

1:14:23 Don't want to talk about the logistics of the law. Mary. I mean, you stood up and said, yes, I did it, I did something wrong. No, I fit the elements that equal guilty to the elements, and we don't have to if we're if we really want to, if you really want to go into like the let's see, where do we want to go on? I just want to see what I'm trying to get a sense of, whether you think you did anything wrong at the time, at the time, and now. Okay, I want you to also respect one thing that we're married. This is I appreciate its okay, So. When you and we're not like between us, we know what happened at the time and it's entirely not appropriate to talk about because we're not we know we know.

1:15:11 That, isn't it? Isn't it a fair question? I'll ask you to really know, because I don't want to disrespect you guys. I will say, is it a fair question to ask if? Is it a fair question to ask you both whether you think at the time, Mary, you were doing anything wrong, if. You knew the personal situation with us, and on that side, I wanted everything to go away. I am like a big peacemaker, and I thought, you know what, We're not going to have this go into a trial, because that's drama that brings in my father, it brings in his family. And no matter what personally happened at between us, that as far as those moments that changed everything, at those in the those moments, we know, we know. And the fact that I decided that I, as the adult, was going to make this go away and we would all get on with our lives, and that I would get back and not even get back resume like I've got some responsibilities to some children and a marriage to resolve, and for the best of everybody, I said, I'm going to do this. I'm going to stand up and I'm gonna this is going to just the least amount of drama.

1:16:43 Mary, I kind except that this goes to the heart of the whole story for me. When you say the best for everybody, what I'm trying to ask is whether it was the best for Villy at the time. I mean, he was a thirteen year old boy, had a big decision to make. Was it the best for everybody Villy. To continue it. You're saying you made a big adult choice, Mary, And I'm not trying to turn this into an adversarial interview. I'm trying to say, when you say you made a big adult choice and made the decision that was best for everyone, was it best for Billy? Oh? You mean to show this? Okay, so sure if you would appreciate it. I just want to let Billy speak. Can you answer that question, Billy, let's. Clarify the question though you should I have said not guilty and brought him to trial?

1:17:26 No? No, Should you have pursued the relationship at all? Should you have walked away? You're presuming I preserve that both of you. It's a question to both of you. You were the adult Mary, Okay, but that doesn't mean the personality mix. Okay. So here's here's a as a sinct way of saying it. And I appreciate this as a difficult discussion. I think it's kind of disrespectful that we're married and you're. Going there, no, no, no, because it's the inception. I just want to get that. I just want to deal with what happened at the time. I appreciate that you're married and this is an enduring relationship. I understand that I'm not saying saying it was wrong. I'm asking you to answer the critics. Okay at the time, Really I'm going to You're thirteen years old, You're transported back. You can make the decision all over again to pursue this relationship.

1:18:14 Do you do it? But I do it after knowing my kids now, I think there would be a lot of things that I've probably would have changed. I mean, I've looked at it. I spent a lot of time thinking about it, like if I was to pursue it, which way would have what would have happened? What if? And I really don't know, you know, I can't. There was a lot of complicity of emotions going on with the both of us, her and her personal life and my personal life, and I think a lot of those elements kind of brought us together to where we are today.

1:19:02 Was it right? Was it wrong? I don't know. All I know is that is that it happened, and everything that did happen that we do speak of, that we felt within our hearts for each other was real. But in the legal system and for the average normal I you know, it is obviously wrong for many reasons. And I, you know, I respect the law and the reasons for those laws. And. From personal experience and from seeing other people go through it, I yeah, I just it is what it is.

1:19:57 Would you said, this is this, this story you will story is almost an exception to the law because you fell in love. That that that that makes it all all okay? I would say it was. It's okay, But I think a lot of it could have been handled a different way, could have been less stressful on on the both both of us. You know, they when when they found out about it. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's the This type of stuff isn't new and it's gone back ages, you know. But. Our story was the first one to be publicized.

1:20:40 And I can't imagine how tough it was to live through that for the both of you. The media storm, the court case. What what was it like back then in the eye of the storm. Mm hmm, the media in the court at that time. I just all I was thinking about through that entire time was how she was doing and was she okay and would she be able to get back to her family, her kids. I never really thought about myself. I was more worried about what she was going to be doing you know, or how she was doing, and I kind of felt like maybe they should have gave us a chance to talk things out or at least work things out.

1:21:36 They kind of just cut the contact, you know, between us, between us, and I just think that that wasn't right. I think they should have at least maybe a supervised visits or something to at least talk things out or figure out what's gonna go, you know. I mean, considering that she had given birth to my child, and it was just it was it was a real struggle. I mean, there was a lot of things I didn't understand at that age. I didn't know anything about the law. I didn't know anything about raising a family. I didn't know anything about. All I knew was that I loved her.

1:22:20 That was That was it. I didn't know anything. Like I said before, it's it's basically like anybody who's figuring out love for the first time, they the first taste of it, you know, and that was that was me, and you know, and then I just think it. I think a lot of cases just kind of get put into categories, and you know, they see the highlight of it, but they don't really look at the individuals a little more deeply. I think what happened with us was that you know this just this is huge. You know, she's a beautiful sixth grade teacher, her background, you know her, where she comes from, where I come from. They figured, oh, this is a really great story, and they and they just ran with it. Was anybody caring for her feelings or my feelings? No, nobody really cared about that. And I think, and I'm not I'm not trying to play the victim here about any of it. I just think that it should have. There's a lot of things that could have happened, but they didn't. There's a lot of help that we both could have gotten that didn't happen.

1:23:40 Have you had any Have you at any point really felt like a victim? People like to call you a victim. Well, well, growing up, I've always had people telling me that's not really how I feel. You know that, Oh she made you feel that way. So I was always getting that. So now that I'm older and I've grown up and I've been through so many experiences, I know my feelings. I know who I am. I know who I am as a person. I know and I love every little thing about me, and I wouldn't change who I am and all my experiences that I've come through in life that brought me here. I mean, it's it's been a ride, for sure, and and I think there is always going to be critics, you know, out there a lot of people that just wouldn't understand. I mean I've I, for one, can't you know, being thirty five and looking back like switching the roles. I mean, I for one couldn't do that when I look at it.

1:24:43 I mean, after even raising my own kids and looking back at it, I was like, I, I for sure couldn't do it. What do you mean by that? I mean just from knowing everything that I know now, I mean I couldn't. I mean even just even without knowing and seeing a thirteen year old you know, now you know me being thirty five, I couldn't. I couldn't, like, look at a girl that young romantically. Is that hard to hear? Mary? Oh, I don't. I don't relate that to our situation. But it's the exact same situation in reverse. No, it isn't. That's no, things that are not, things that are not actually the same should not be treated as if they are. But that's oh, that's from the United States Supreme Court.

1:25:30 By the way, I mean it's you know what, I mean, guess what. It doesn't guess what. It doesn't cross my mind, and it never did, so I would never. What do you mean it never did? I mean it did when I didn't pursue it. But stop, Matt, please please. I mean her defense. I mean the entire time when. I never pursued it, I never thought about it, and it's ever crossed my mind in any of course. It's like, I'm not saying there aren't. The reason there's a deterrent title like that is because maybe there are people that a male that might even consider it.

1:26:15 I would say, there there are people out there, there might be, and there there there are definitely, I mean for us good reason. There's the law is there with a. Guy that's my age, dad finds a thirteen year old attractive and that I don't know, just for me, I couldn't do it, I know, and he doesn't. We're saying we neither of us think that way, and we're both happy that there's such a law of this. You see what I'm saying. I'm not I'm not trying to cause an argument here when you were thirty four. You did think that way, and you did do exactly that. I was pursued and I didn't think about it. I did not think about it. Didn't.

1:26:55 But that's not an excuse for any crime, is it for? And I'm not saying this is you can't just go. I didn't think about it, so you later? Sorry, No, morally, I thought about, you know what, I'm not even technically single yet and he's calling me his girlfriend, and I thought that was you know, I was like, this is not right. He needs to let me get on with my life and I'll see you later. I don't I'm not saying that in a cold way. It was breaking my heart, breaking my heart to know. There were two things I wanted him. I wanted him to move on in his life and experience everything he needed to, all of his dying pledges of love. And I'm like, you got to go, you got to finish school, you got to do this. He was accepted into an art one of the big art academies here already back then, And it was I wanted him to go experience life.

1:28:01 And I wanted to raise my children. I didn't expect to get pregnant where we were at the time, whatever, I am entirely in support of the laws that are there. So you're saying there's not you're saying it's night and day, for example, between what you did and the laws that would surround pedophilia that I'm. Actually was entirely evaluated, probably three four times. And there's nothing, not a single trade of anything inside of me that that's pretty loud and clear in any document that's a child.

1:28:44 Yeah, and balance where some like somebody has like this, like their attraction, what they're attracted to, it. To pre p pubscent. No, well a child under well, a child a thirteen year old would qualified. He wasn't pretty pubescent. Does that write the difference? Oh? Okay, First, let's go back. How many thirteen year olds are having sex with thirteen year olds? Plenty across the world, millions and billions. Not a lot of them are having sex with thirty four year old? Yes, but are they having sex? It's not relevant? Is that? It is absolutely relevant? Are they having sex? I didn't see it. Are they having sex?

1:29:26 Are they having sex? I'm certain that they are, But how does that relevant to this case? They're not children, they're developed, they're not children having sex with children, they're teenagers. They're doing actually really and elastically and lit and across the board with the even in legislation, they recognize that thirteen year olds are going to have sex. So should we rip up the laws and say it's a free for old thirteen year olds with whoever they like. No, Because there are cases, and it's called strict liability, there are cases where there could be abuse. There could be so you have to have a law. It acts as a deterrent because there are people who might pursue and abuse a situation. But when thirteen year olds are with fifteen year olds, with seventeen year olds, with those really, when they're with it's happening. We all know, everybody knows across the world. It's happening teenagers. It's natural. There's no laws that are saying teenagers can't do that. They're going to So there. You don't say, oh, there's oh that pedophilia with pedophilia, that doesn't even make sense. It doesn't make sense. There are people that have disorders. The laws

1:30:59 have to be there, they absolutely have to be there. They were gravely Yeah, there are people out there. I mean, I've watched a documentary on pedophilia, or just because I was curious because I, you know, being in my situation, I was really curious about. It, as in whether you might have been a victim of pedophilia. Yeah, so I was like curious to watch it and just listen to what some of these actual people that do have it. But they were talking about and and then these scientists were talking about like their brain on how their attraction is almost like somebody with I don't know how do you can call them. You wouldn't call them retards or mentally challenged. I don't know what do you call them, but they would they're not fully grown, like that part of their brain doesn't fully grow, but everything else is growing, just not that part that they're attracted to, like they could they could be a best friend.

1:32:01 And in their mind, they're probably trying to figure out why am I attracted to younger younger age range than my own. Some of them are just kind of it's like a disability. So what you would say, I can see you bristling at any mention of pedophilia in this discussion, Mary, I understand that are you saying. What you were saying is that this is a unique cast. You've never been attracted to anyone else, under right, Okay, let's. Just I don't want I want, I hope this is uh. I want this to be useful to your audience, and I don't think it should be confused and overglossing that that term is specific, like as Billie was talking. It has nothing to do with me one, because he wasn't pre pubescent. He wasn't a child. And we have to we have to respect the intelligence of your audience.

1:32:57 But you've got to I've got to jump in on there behind because when you say he wasn't a child, he was thirteen. Okay, so we go back to thirteen year olds or having sex with thirteen year olds. No, I just when you say he wasn't a child, that's the only part I grappling. Okay, if the two thirteen year old teenagers are having sex, do you want to say there's two children having sex? Is that what you would say? Sure? But then I would say it's infinitely worse if that thirteen year old has six with an adult. It is true, but we're not let's not like stray away from I want to entirely respect the intelligence of your audience. I am offended by the whole line of questioning because I don't I think on an intellectual level, I don't think you're giving even to ask the question.

1:33:43 I think you're misleading the audience to even and all you all, y'all just look up the definition and then say, did he even ask the right question? So? Why did you spend seven years in prison? Why did you spend why were you sent to prison? Talk for four hours and I would be happy, happy to start. Any attorney out there, any legal authority will be right with me on this. It's called a strict liability law. If sexual intercourse happened, no matter if it was, no matter if he was the aggressor, no matter if he initiated it. And being the younger I am the adult, sexual intercourse happened in our state. There are three elements sexual intercourse happened, the age difference, and third element, we were not married. What does that say right there? And we were not married? That means if we had been in theory, if we had been married, nope, crime. I'm just saying, but.

1:34:53 There's a reason that thirteen year olds don't marry thirty four year olds. Is just not right? Oh well, it happened in Virginia. Well legally so, should it be a free for all across the stone? No, but it is, it's it's it's not entirely I'm just saying it's a strict liability, but you keep going back to that part, and I want now, strict liability law means if it happened. It means if same thing as when an oil company accident for whatever reason, spills oil into a into a river. Strict liability doesn't matter. If it was negligence, doesn't matter how it happened. It happened.

1:35:33 What I'm confused about, it just happened. What I'm confused about, Mary, is whether or not you, in your mind you think you did anything wrong. Because you're throwing laws at me and consent and age and give in your audience. You're throwing in these bandwigon terms, and I think it's confusing them. Okay, can I put all can I put all those terms to one side? Did you do anything wrong? I've always said, you know it was Should I have run from him? I did at one point say say you have to go. I did. I cried harder than and I didn't know I was pregnant. But I did say you have to go. Do you understand you have to go? It was very hard.

1:36:25 I think legally it was wrong. Well we know. Legally it was wrongly emotionally, we now know that emotionally the connection that we felt for each other, I don't your answer would be yes or no. I'm going to be the same as you. I would not take back anything. I'm going to say the same as you. And I'm if I could, if I could do something different. One I don't live. I don't live a day like that. I do my best every single day, and I can look back and say, Mary, did you do your best every single day? And I'll say yes.

1:37:08 When you send a day, when you send your children off. Now in the mornings you say I love you, do the right thing, and do the right thing. Did you do the right thing? You know what. I'm not going to continue with you trying to have me answer that question. I told you I did my best every single day, and I live my life that way. And I did. And in that situation, it doesn't even matter. I did my best, and even that I feel, even at the moment, do I wish I had a different attorney. That's the only thing I can tell you at this point, did I should I have had a different attorney? And I say yes, But did I at the time? Did I make the best choice?

1:37:59 He was my neighbor. Was he the best choice for an attorney in this situation? Heck no. Do you think you were wrongly imprisoned? Absolutely? Why? Because you don't know our story but we do. We do. You should never have gone to Jill. If you knew us, and if you knew our the intimacies which guess what are nobody's business now they don't belong. I wouldn't do that to our marriage. I wouldn't go back to that time and put it in a book. I wouldn't have a movie that tried to the movie out there that is not true. The book out there is not true. Nothing that's ever.

1:38:43 It's like, but I've never heard you say that before? Which part you shouldn't have gone to prison? I did the best that I felt at the time, the decision that I made, and I tried to take the guilty pleap back. When I realized I was tricked and coerced into it, I tried to take it back, and it was a few weeks after and I have said that before, and I think someone can watch some Larry King Live. The problem is that the programs are edited. Anything that we've done, they're edited people. It's like things are taken out. Nobody wants to hear what really happened with why did I take that guilty plea and the parts about our intimate relationship and what happened back then.

1:39:36 Well, I'm not asking you about that. I think you'll appreciate and I'm not prosecuting the case. To say even to say, do you. I just know that this whole thing that I just want to tie up and just really wrap up the because I feel like it was left loose. Is It's just absurd to think that thirteen year olds are not having sex and they're not pursuing it in a very deliberate, knowing way. It's absurd. Okay, So I just want to say that there are continual scholastic and legal dialogues, committees with psychologists, with legal authorities. They still to this day are trying to do their best combining just combining like all of the layers of how do we manage this, we have to manage teenage pregnancy, How can we best do this?

1:40:48 Should we put a strict liability lag call it, call it this big glaring word. Put the word rape there so that it at least takes some of the pressure. How can we go after all of it because it's rampant? How can we How can we look like what Philly said? How can we look at the. We can't. The courts don't have time to look at well, what were your feelings? What were your feelings? Well? Did you do this? Or who did this? And the courts nobody has the money for that strict liability? Just no, accept it's not black and white. What about your position, Billy? Should Mary have been sent to prison?

1:41:29 I don't think so. I mean that's from my point of view, from being on the inside and knowing a little more details about everything, you know, me living with you know, knowing who she was. How tough for those prison years for you? When I mean you were you became a teenage father. Oh. I went in a really deep depression during that time because of the no contact order and I was just I just left by myself. So I went into a really deep depression and I was doing I was getting into trouble, doing a lot of things I wasn't supposed to be doing doing things anything that I could possibly get a laugh out of or have some sort of happiness feeling. So I was doing it all because I was really suffering inside.

1:42:23 How dark was it? Fore, I say, it's pretty dark. There's a lot of people i'd meet now that's you know, they recognized me, and they would tell me these stories of how I met them and what we did together, and I was like, wow, like, I'm really sorry, I don't remember any of it. What was it? Was it? The way of parenthood? Was a missing Mary while she was behind bus. I believe it was missing Mary. It wasn't just simple as dis missing her. It was more of, you know, not being able to talk anything through because I was getting told by a lot of people what what I was feeling, what my feelings were, and what she was to me, and and uh and I just knew the truth, you know, of what it was between us, and it was just really hard to convince anyone, you know. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, really relationships like that are okay, They're not. I would say, in our situation and me, what happened between us, you know, shouldn't have been anybody's business. It wasn't like she was out, you know, looking out for young boys or anything like that. Yeah, what happened between us was just it happened.

1:43:38 I mean it. I don't I can't really say any negative or I don't have any negative things. It just is what it is. It just happened. Yeah, I mean it's when I think about it, I mean it's it's almost like just any any any relationship that just happens. You know, you could be working with somebody for years and then one day it's like, Wow, I'm in love with this person, and then you guys get together, and then people are sitting there questioning. So you're questioning you, how did you guys fall in love? But the only thing is with people or normal age relationship like that, is that they don't get asked like do you think it was wrong that you guys fell in love or anything like that. I would, and but for our situation, you know, that's one of the things we suffer with in it is being asked these questions and which has become our life. So for me, I just know, I guess I just know how to answered a little bit. I feel better answering it because back then I didn't know how to answer it. But I guess I don't know. I guess forever in my mind it's always gonna make sense more than it will the other person listening.

1:44:51 So do you both feel like your soul nights. So mates can come? You know, anyone I really like that? Are you still in love? I would say yes, who. Now? I think that marriage is a it's a it's there's a labor labor. I would say, anyone that's married will uh no, there's a there's a labor of love. That term is there for a reason. So in love is a in love? I'm pretty uh, I'm pretty scientific.

1:45:36 I would say there's all sorry cutting me off, but I would say, there's all kinds of different types of love, you know. I mean there's people who I've seen marriages where they make it work. They might have fallen out of love somewhere in the relationship, but they somehow just make it work for if it if it's for the kids, or if it has to do with any personal issues that they're having, they make it work. And sometimes they fall back in love. Sometimes it doesn't work, and then there's there's just all I don't know. I don't want to get into it, because. There's well I think that in love is actually if you look scientifically into it, and they came out.

1:46:19 With some tests, there'll be true romantics absolutely horrified about you. Sorry, science into. This, I'm sorry. The science is that it equates to the same thing that in the brain. It in love, and it only lasts for a little while. I think they say maybe six months or maybe a little bit longer. But it's no different how it activates the brain, and it's for a purpose. It acts like cocaine does on the brain. Now, these are new tests. Look it up everyone. I don't know. I don't I can't name the scientists. Love the new cocaine.

1:46:59 I don't think it's really new. But it actually activates the same part of the brain as is cocaine. So it's like being on a drug, and so it does eventually go away. It's supposed to though. In it's supposed to bring people together and so you have that nice high and you don't notice anything about the person except no, everything is perfect, right. Every relationship in the whole wide world has challenge love. I'm not asking I'm not asking you whether you've had a flawless, perfect relationship because I know that doesn't exist.

1:47:42 I mean, I can't get near it. Haven't you been in love before? I have, and I've failed attempt. No, it doesn't last for about six months. It lasts for a little bit longer. Than okay, a little bit longer the in love. But I'm just I just heard about these tests, and I'm like, that's so true. But can I ask you? This is what I'm interested in, is whether you mayor you think you're almost in love with And I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, the idea of being in love in the sense that if you took love out of the equation, out of this equation, what are you left with? Is it bare criminality or is it something else? I love him more today than I did when I was in love and high on whatever drug that someone wants to I love him more today. I hope everybody in marriage gets there. I hope they get past that place where you say, oh my gosh, I was in love with you once. But now I see all these things and I don't know. I just I when I made his love is love when I made it when I made his lunch the other day, and.

1:49:07 It's It's funny she still gets she still gets up at three am. It gets up at three am and makes your lunch. I find that incredible. I mean, you're. Well. The other night, I was still awake and I said, I don't want to get up at six when he does, so I'm going to make it first. Sometimes it's in the morning, but sometimes it will be. It just depends on my schedule the next day. But can you give me a port Can you give me a bit of a picture of husband and wife? I mean, what's he like as a husband. Oh, now. It does. She's not going to say you're terrible on the camera.

1:49:50 Just listen to this. Do you know how when he said he loves every part of himself, Yeah, I do too, even the rotten parts. What about it? Parents? I mean you both seem to me from a distance to be absolutely sensational parents. Is Mary a good mother? She's a really good mother. Yeah. I think a lot of the I'm really grateful for a lot of that she's imprinted in the girls. Like what just the way, you know, how they treat others, you know, and with their respect for others and other people's things, And yeah, pretty much, sir, they're moral, they're morals of that stuff.

1:50:39 There's a lot of people Villa who wouldn't survive the relationship, wouldn't survive more than seven years with one partner being in prison. Did but was it difficult to stay the course? We actually did it. While I was she was in there. I wanted to live my life. I mean, there was no contact. There was a lot that I was going through. Is that how to hear? Mary? Oh? Did he date it? We? Oh? No, we had an agreement. I didn't even we did. You were like, go, oh, yeah, I knew he needed so. So.

1:51:24 Yeah, so we had this agreement that she was going to be away for a long time and I was going to be you know, not to wait, to just do whatever, you know, whatever's meant to be, He's going to be. It was kind of your youth. Yeah, Oh that was always the intention that he would. But I want to when I was there and you asked me, there wasn't part of me wasn't saying I wasn't believing, And I didn't it mind. I didn't mind if I felt so fulfilled, and I thought everybody in the world, if once in your life you have what we had back then the union. The no I was entirely I said, I have it for a lifetime and it didn't matter if we got back together. That he that that you did.

1:52:18 What does the future look like for the both of you? Where does the story of Mary and VILLI end? M that Mary does her best every single day, and that's how the story ends. And for Billy, I'll go with that no.